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Doc2b
10-14-2005, 03:56 AM
My daughter is studying to be a medical doctor and she is pretty active in the univ aikido club. I heard from other parent that one of the instructors is very vicious and has injured quite a number of students where he instructs. Among the injuries I was told were dislocated shoulder, broken collar bone and torn ligaments to the elbows and wrists. I am more concerned with ligament injuries as I was informed that such injuries do not heal 100% and pains and other ails will come back to haunt from time to time. I am worried that such injury will impede my daughter's ambition of being a surgeon.

Anat Amitay
10-22-2005, 03:46 AM
I don't know if the Aikido training is part of university activity where your daughter studies, or just an activity on university grounds. But if instructors work for the university, there must be someone to talk to about such an instructor. You mentioned serious injuries done by that instructor, but did anyone ever talk to him/her about this, or is it something people only complain about among themselves?
Injuries can happen in Aikido, even with the gentelest instructor in the world, but still it is not considered to be a very harmful martial art, all things compared. I don't know how many injuries happened in that dojo, and on how long a time scale, but it's something that can be checked out.
You did mention this is one instructor out of a number- your daughter can decide who she wants to train with, and does not have to come to classes by that instructor. If he is part of the group, and she sees him hurt others, and he/she asks her to train with them- she can say no, and explain that their work is causeing harm which she is not interested in.
I doubt that if there are other instructors there and this one caused so much harm, that no one has done anything about it (after all, you did "hear" it from another parent.... which means the information is not first hand and should be checked out before coming with accusations). If you daughter did get hurt by this instructor, she has every right to tell this to the other instructors, it is their job to make sure their dojo is safe for training, and they need to talk to the offensive instructor, and if that doesn't help, he/she should be told to leave. But this is up to the instructors and I know I wouldn't go to a dojo where abusive instructors are allowed to do what they want.
This is not an answer as to what to do, but I hope it helps with your daughters decisions.
Anyway, I hope she enjoys both training and studying- good luck to her on both!
Anat

Camille Lore
10-22-2005, 08:47 AM
I would have to say that if there is such an instructor, that's probably not true aikido and certainly not a good place to learn. If she wants to do aikido, find another place to train......if this is true. The founder of aikido taught compassion and not injuring people....

Robert Jackson
10-22-2005, 10:03 AM
Unfortunately, Injuries happen. Sometimes it can be accidental. Sometimes it can be done out of ignorance (not knowing how to take care your Uke). And sometimes it's just not caring. Sometimes it can be malice. The middle two are pretty preventable, if you see a nage and nage looks like nage's not taking care of uke and it looks like he might hurt you don't train with said nage. Whether it's an instructor or a peer, If they don't take care of Uke, they lose the right to train.

As previously stated this might be a repuatation caused by a small injury that was purely accidental. My advice, talk with your daughter. She's made it to med school so she's obviously smart enough and observant enough to make her own decision about her training and life.

Janet Rosen
10-22-2005, 05:09 PM
"Shoulder separation" --dislocation between the collarbone and the top of the sternum--is a common and usually self-inflicted beginners injury in aikido, when folks trying to do forward rolls accidentally project themselves directly on the top of the shoulder. If there are a LOT of these it may mean that the instructor is simply not focussing on teaching small low on-the-ground rolls or may be encouraging faster progress than they are ready for.
Tearing ligaments forearm ligaments should not be a "common" injury. But as others have said, it would be good to get verification from more than one source.

doc2b
10-23-2005, 10:05 PM
Hi to all who replied,

I am more concerned with the "aikido" injuries and not too much with the attitude and humility of the instructor concerned and, thankfully, he does not instruct at the university on a regular basis. I have approached her instructor who himself is also a licensed medical practitioner. He did not confirm nor deny the vicious behavior of that particular instructor and he assured me that the instructor will not be involved in any campus that is taught by his association. He also said that wrist and elbow injuries from the locking techniques are common but the students are young and such injuries will heal 100%. He became quite evasive when I told him that MDs specializing in sport injuries thought otherwise.

Any MD care to comment.

Thank you.

Janet Rosen
10-24-2005, 01:15 AM
I'm not an MD but I've been an RN over 25 yrs and have done some research on injuries.
The problem is defining "injury." Some folks do not differentiate among:
We all have minor bruises and muscle aches and pulled toes and minor strains, as you would expect if doing skiing, volleyball, or pretty much any activity. Yep, they heal 100%.
Things like the shoulder separation I described, well it depends on the person and how they treat it. A minor soft tissue injury IF permitted to heal will heal in 6 to 8 weeks. Some gung-ho students refuse to properly treat them though, either not doing RICE enough and/or returning to using it too early, and end up with some degree of a chronic injury as a result.
Finally there are more serious acute injuries--the severely damaged tendons or ligaments caused either by accident or by overzealous cranking. These are pretty uncommon. There is no denying that they may leave residual damage or tendency to reinjury in some folks.

guy incognito
10-25-2005, 12:52 PM
Have you even watched the instructor in question?

Sounds like your mind is already made up. You talked to the instructor and did not like what he said and simply countered it with your own opinion.

Its going to be crowded in that operating room.....

Avery Jenkins
11-01-2005, 09:34 AM
I am a doctor, and I've been practicing aikido for many years, so perhaps I can answer your question from both sides of the fence. As Janet said, the injuries you can expect in Aikido are not altogether different from the injuries you might get from any other relatively active sport. For the most part, injuries heal; some require ongoing management, but not specifically because they are Aikido injuries, it's just the nature of the individual.

My "serious" injury list is as follows: 2 broken noses, cracked ribs, 2nd degree separation of the right clavicle, dislocated proximal interphalangeal joint of the third digit, and torn medial meniscus of the right knee.

I must add that I do *not* train at some sort of hell dojo, and my sensei has the utmost concern for the well being of her students. She takes great precautions to ensure the safety of her students. Almost all of my injuries resulted from my own attempts to push the envelope of my skills (except for the finger thingy which was the result of me getting it caught in nage's gi as I was receiving a technique), and none of them occurred early in my Aikido career. These injuries also occurred during my 40s, so I was well beyond the bounce-back-quick days of my youth.

Because of the nature of my work (I'm a chiropractic physician and acupuncturist), I must be able to perform physically complex tasks multiple times on a daily basis. In every case, I have been able to continue working while injured; sometimes, it required some modification of technique, which actually was a net positive because it resulted in the further refinement of my psychomotor skills.

The worst of the bunch, professionally speaking, was the shoulder separation which initially caused a great deal of pain while performing some types of manual medicine. Quality of patient care did not suffer, however.

Other than that, I did have to endure a great deal of ribbing from my patients the first time I broke my nose, which for the week following the injury until I could get it set, was plastered well toward the left side of my face, giving me an uncanny resemblance to a Cubist portrait.

So, relax, Pops. Injuries are bound to happen, but so is the healing. As a father of two extraordinary females myself, I am well aware of the innate urge to protect them from absolutely any harm, but the trouble is, you can't. Statistically speaking, your daughter has a much higher risk of suffering a career-ending injury while driving to the hospital than she does taking an Aikido class.

Avery Jenkins

Avery

aikidoc
11-01-2005, 11:43 AM
Although rumors of abusive instructors are just rumors, it is important to check out any school or instructor. Injuries should be the exception not the rule. If they are the rule, they can indicate many things including: lack of control, lack of concern for the students, egomania, sadistic tendencies, etc.

Having sustained a serious wrist injury by a fellow chiropractor who happened to be my instructor at the time, I stress safety. My wrist has never been the same (sankyo works). I had one student rupture a ligament in his finger recently in a freak accident. He slapped the mat in a routine throw and did not feel any pain but his finger was flexed when he came up-apparently he ruptured the extensor tendon and we are not sure how that happened-he's a nidan.

Students always have the option of leaving the mat when things appear to be rougher than they think they are able to handle. Any joint injury can be serious if it disrupts the ligament or tendon structures or for that matter tears a muscle. Ligaments are not elastic and have a low blood supply and, therefore, heal slowly and poorly. Tendons do a little better and muscles better yet as they are more elastic and have a better blood supply. A torn muscle, however, can take 4-6 weeks to completely heal. Repetitive joint injuries and especially damage to the cartilage can result in early onset of osteoarthritis, pain and possibly disability.

To me, in today's modern dojo, deliberate injuries are inexcusable. Occasional, accidental injuries will and do occur. Testing scenarios are always precarious, as the adrenaline and, if a young male, the testosterone in combination can make for a risky cocktail. The focus of the dojo on safety, prevention of injuries and learning to take good ukemi will help minimize injuries. It may also be advisable to learn basic first aid as well.

James Davis
11-01-2005, 12:16 PM
I'd go to the dojo and check the instructor out. If I didn't practice aikido, I'd take an aikidoka (or other martial atrist) with me and get his opinion as well.

I have personally seen some instructors that were rougher than others, but injuries are also often a complete accident.
I teach once a week for my sensei, and I think I'm a pretty nice guy. I'm very careful with my students, but sometimes they get injured. Often, it's because they want to see if they can resist, overpower, reverse, or otherwise challenge martial techniques that have been effective for thousands of years :rolleyes: .

Aikido is a labor of love. Injuries will probably happen. Walkin' out the door in the morning puts you at some risk. :uch:

MDs that specialize in sports injuries often are taught different things in college than martial artists are taught from their instructors. Pain meds can numb injured body parts resulting in their not being treated as gently as they should, and sometimes being re-injured. Pain tells us something is wrong with us; it should be controlled, but not shut off completely.

In my experience, when someone has an major injury that requires long-term management, often it's because it was ignored when it was a minor injury. :(

If your wrist hurts a little when you bend it, don't "tough it out". Stay the heck off the mat and let it heal!! :grr:

doc2b
11-01-2005, 09:53 PM
A big TQ to Janet Rosen, Dr. Jenkins and Dr Rigg for your replies.

To "Guy Incognito",
Yes. I have just watched the instructor in question in. My daughter pointed him out to me in their uni aikido demostration. He looked and sounded like a decent guy but once he was on the mat, he was mean and sadistic.

James Davis
11-02-2005, 10:39 AM
A big TQ to Janet Rosen, Dr. Jenkins and Dr Rigg for your replies.

To "Guy Incognito",
Yes. I have just watched the instructor in question in. My daughter pointed him out to me in their uni aikido demostration. He looked and sounded like a decent guy but once he was on the mat, he was mean and sadistic.
Then suggest to your daughter that she train somewhere else.

Special Apperance
11-02-2005, 03:44 PM
FWIW.Responding late I hope this will help.

I have a good friend who is a general surgeon. I also have a friend who is anesthesiologist. I spoke to both about the situation and the concerns the father has. Both said these concerns of the father are no to go lightly. My surgeon friend highly suggested the daughter stop Aikido training all together. As he put it, my hands are my most critical and important tool that I must protect. Injury to my hands would result in ending my career, I have to be extremely careful." He stressed that medical school is highly competitive and costly. Any injury to her body would have an negative effect upon her school and career, the risk isn't a good one. He strongly suggests not to risk it and stop Aikido. He knows what Aikido is, and strongly sides with the father in his concern for injury. This is one successful surgeon's opinion and recommendation.

The other doctor said, some what the same thing to stop Aikido if she is pursuing a career as a surgeon of any type. If she is going into another field of specialty like anesthesiology, he doesn't think an injury will effect her career as greatly if she was studying surgery. The anesthesiologist is a martial artist nut who works closely with and a friend of the general surgeon.

If you take both doctor's advice it wouldn't matter if the Sensei was Godzilla, or the Pope. If, that is, you were to be a surgeon. Personally, if I could I would have my kid stop Aikido if surgery was the choosen career path. I am sure it is easier said than done.

My personal advice is to contact surgeons of various specialities, and teaching surgeons to get their advice.

Good luck.

aikidoc
11-02-2005, 05:51 PM
I've seen artist and musicians practice with no problems. It's an issue of people respecting others and weeding out potentially abusive instructors. My personal opinion is there are no excuses for abusive instructors. Abuse of any kind is simply abuse-a person's position is no excuse.

Anat Amitay
11-03-2005, 12:24 PM
an answer to "special apperance":
with all due respect to both your doctor friends, people should participate in things that let their soul grow and not only their knowledge.
I bet your sugeon friend does cut a salad from time to time, take hot stuff out of the oven, uses a saw/ hammer/ nails... which can all be hazardous to his hands.
So I can understand his concern with not taking "un-necessary" risks as she builds her carreer.
Still, if Aikido is something that fills her life with more than a DVD movie would than I think she'll benefit of it more than she would lose.
We all use our hands, even a computer genious, a clerk, a hair dresser etc... My hands are very important for my work, and that did not keep me off the mat.
She's a grown person and should make her own decisions on her life. I don't think it's not taking her studies seriously, and no one will garantee her the safety of not harming her hands, but as a majority- how many people did injure them so badly as too lose their ability to work in their profession?
I think it's a bit dramatic, though I will respect a person for deciding not to train for that reason, or any other that is major enough for them.
my two cents

Special Appearance
11-03-2005, 01:39 PM
an answer to "special apperance":
with all due respect to both your doctor friends, people should participate in things that let their soul grow and not only their knowledge.
I bet your sugeon friend does hazardous [things with] his hands.
So I can understand his concern with not taking "un-necessary" risks as she builds her carreer.

We all use our hands, even a computer genious, a clerk, a hair dresser etc... My hands are very important for my work, and that did not keep me off the mat.

-how many people did injure them so badly as too lose their ability to work in their profession?

I think it's a bit dramatic, though I will respect a person for deciding not to train for that reason, or any other that is major enough for them.
my two cents

Basically, I can't answer your questions, but I will give you my thoughts. I am not a surgeon, you will have to ask one to get accurate answers.

Here is my thoughts. What little I know via my friends, surgery can be a matter life and death, something to be taken seriously, I hope, since the human body is so complex. I wouldn't want a surgeon with nerve damage to his hands operating on me. Or a person who couldn't do the operation because of a torn ligament in their hand. I would want the best care from someone who studied hard.

I am sure American Medicine has some kind of standards of practice that relate to the condition of surgeon hands. I am guessing on that. When I have a chance, I will speak to my friend about that. Generally, I am not the person to ask.

I provided comments resulting to speaking with my doctor friends, I presented their professional view. I recommended that both father and daughter speak to a surgeon, and or a teaching surgeon about injuries she might experience and how it might affect her career and specialty.

I give props to the father for being a concerned parent. He loves his daughter and doesn't want her to get hurt. He wants her to achieve her goals, it is very supportive of. As parent, I would do the same thing, in looking out for my kids in their best interest no matter how old their they are. That is a parent, adult children respect that.

Aikido isn't the be all and end all for everyone. Most people live with out it. It isn't a career, it doesn't put food on the table, it can help some people with living. People do Aikido, not gods, so you will run in to all sorts of people and personalities. Just as there are as many dojos, there are different interpretations by different people of what Aikido is and isn't. So my friend, if a father is concerned about an instructor, he probably is right that the current instructor or dojo may not be for his daughter. His concerns are valid.

Good luck and best wishes.

Avery Jenkins
11-03-2005, 08:16 PM
Hey, Special Appearance: Just wondering, do you practice Aikido?

Speical Appearance
11-04-2005, 01:32 PM
Why, yes I do. I have been training regular for a couple of years. Started it late in life. I am very happy doing it. I have a wonderful Sensei, Sempai, and dojo. I guess the dojo is seen as being some what fanatical by some and low key. The core of the dojo is small 5-10 people. Sensei doesn't want to be mentioned on the net, nor the dojo. His concerns are valid IMO, so I don't want to bring attention to him. It would be terrible to have people confuse him with my opinions. Even worse to have what I say reflect upon the dojo. I don't speak for the dojo, or Sensei. I don't want my opinions to reflect on the dojo or the Sensei. This should answer many questions.

This is just misinterpretation IMO, but the dojo has been taken as being snobbish and eccentric. We are considered fanatical by some because our dojo tends to be very Japanese in flavor both pre and post war Aikido. There are other aspects of Japanese culture we learn too. After going through several affiliations, we are no longer are affiliated. We enjoy the status of being an independent dojo. There is no heavy focus on Ki like some schools do, but rather on one's own ability to preform waza, and how closely we adhere to Osensei teachings.

What makes us unique in my opinion is that we also mix in elements of Kendo training, and bring in other aspects of Japanese culture like a guest tea ceremony Sensei. We also learn things in Japanese gardening, and cooking to name a few of the areas we are schooled in. We are encouraged to take Japanese language classes and classes at the University on Japanese culture. I think this is a great element and addition to training. IMO you really have to understand the background of Osensei, it is just not enough to read a translated text, you have to really understand it well. We basically exploit as much of the Japanese way of life, thinking and culture as we can, without living in Japan. And Sensei has lived and trained in Japan for many years. He is a soft spoken gentleman. Who runs a very good private and personal dojo in my opinion.

This should give you a good introduction, and answer some possible future questions, as well as understand where I am coming from when I don't cheer lead the popular cookie cut cheer. Rather, I would offer my opinion. Pls. realize my views are not to reflect my dojo's or my Sensei's.


FWIW, I do read the translated writings of Osensei too. I know the history of Aikido. I honestly, have a hard time understanding what Osensei is saying on the spiritual side beyond the fundamentals we are all aware of. I don't know if anyone really did understand Osensei completely and in detail other then him. This should get me flamed...ugggh...!

When I give my opinion, it is mine and I insure it will stay mine and it will not be confused with or reflected upon my Sensei or the dojo. I don't want people here or else where bashing my Sensei or dojo like they do here in general. I don't want to be kicked out of the dojo, because some Internet Aikido nut bashes him and the dojo on the net, because they find it entertaining. I don't want to give him such a headache.

I offer my opinion and I want people to take if for what it is worth. I understand there are nut cases out there emotionally and mentally imbalanced who take Aikido and will respond to what I say. That comes with the territory of having the freedom to be different and unique, yet the same.

Hope that helped.

Anat Amitay
11-05-2005, 12:34 PM
Hi again to "special appearance",
Thanks for that introduction, and I wish you and your dojo best of luck in training and enjoying the other things Aikido can give a person.
I respect your wish not to give details about place and names, and I think it's not relevant either- you were talking on your behalf, and no one elses.
I like the fact that you put more into your Aikido than just training (learning the language, history etc.) I think it adds alot.

Thanks for your reply to my post. I know Aikido is not everyones life, and I just gave it as an example. I do think everyone should find some hobby or something that they enjoy to enrich their lives, be it music, cooking, sports etc...
I also know what you mean about a surgeon with hand injuries (though I think they cannot continue to operate if they do damage their hands- just like if they get Parkinson, Altzheimer or anything of the sort).
I respect the father and his concerns for his daughter's wellfare, but it seems he he the one writing and I wonder if the daughters thoughts are in correlation with her fathers. I sure hope they are, and wether it is so or not, is not the case here.
I just wanted to point out that people should do things in life that enrich it. We live here once and realizing it when you're 70 is quite a drag... you missed alot meanwhile. Since we take chances so many times in our lives, sometimes doing things we love to do is not that much of a risk even if we see our future as a doctor-surgeon for example.
At the end, the daughter will make her own decisions (or should) for it is her life and she should live it. I agree to hear opinions from all sides, and just want them to be balanced, so that the final decision she makes would not be regreted because of information not mentioned.
I'm blabering too much... :eek: ;)
Anat

doc2b
11-07-2005, 12:50 AM
My daughter and I thank you "Special Appearance" for your for the information you provided.

As I have mentioned earlier, the chief instructor at the medical school where my daughter trains is a licensed general practitioner (MD) who runs his own clinic. He has assured me that aikido is not as dangerous as I perceive. He said that he has trained in aikido for a very long time and he still has a pair of trusty old hands for his general practice. He also assured the students that the vicious instructor in question would not at anytime be instructing at the medical school. Fair enough, the instructor in question did not use any students of the medical school for his demonstration. He used two or three of his personal students for the demonstration where he shown various knife disarming techniques. I approached a couple of these students after the demonstration to inquire whether they have suffered any serious hand injuries. They confirmed they have injuries, all received from the same instructor. They have trained with him for quite a long time and they are amongst a few who can break falls or receive techniques from him.

With the information provided by "Special Appearance", my daughter and her aikido mates will also seek advice from the visiting professors at the medical school who some of them are also practicing surgeons.

TQ

Special Appearance
11-07-2005, 01:30 PM
doc2b,

It is nice to hear things are working out. As a father, myself, you can never be too careful when it comes to your childern(s) welfare that's are job.

I think it is great that an MD is teaching the class, what a beneficial arrangement, you probably couldn't ask for anything better.

It sounds like your daughter is going into GP. From what I hear and from what you told us, the risk of injury to her career is greatly lessen than if she was to become a surgeon. Good news abounds.

Not to get too side tracked, and side from doc2b discussion, I make it a habit to talk to my surgeon friend regularly and my Family Prac. I don't stop there, I do talk to sports RPTs and other professions about injuries that could happen in the dojo and educate myself about such injuries as well. Of course, the dojo plays a role in that, the people in the dojo play a huge role in the matters of injury. Also, more of a major concern is the overall toll Aikido can take on the body over time.

Aikido is just like anything else, and with time due to wear and tear injury can occur. Prevention, education, and awareness is the best medicine in fighting all types of injury. Aikido is an athletic activity IMO, and should be thought of and treated as such. Educating yourself about injury related to Aikido can only make good sense; types of, treatment of, prevention of. I think it shows the seriousness and a responsibility to Aikido training in par with sports when there is a concern for injury, both short and long term possibilities.

Evaluating the Sensei is just part of the process, talking to medical professionals is an other part IMO. I think this makes for a better longer and more productive training environment.

My criticism is some people don't approach Aikido with the same seriousness as sports when it comes to injuries. This may be because Aikido doesn't look like you could get hurt. I have seen some beautiful Ukemi by some senior students and Sensei. Let me tell you by its nature Ukemi is deceiving. Ukemi's impact on the body can range from being in a 30 m/hr car accident to falling off a bike, from what I am told. I think injuries result from attitude as well, by not taking Aikido seriously. May not understand also that Aikido waza comes from waza that killed and maimed people, and Osensei altered those waza so people don't get killed or maimed as a result.

I rant on, sorry.

Overall, I am personally glad doc2b is taking Aikido seriously, and doing the best by his daughter. This is what IMO makes for a good art, and a good student.

Ron Tisdale
11-07-2005, 02:44 PM
Aikido waza comes from waza that killed and maimed people, and Osensei altered those waza so people don't get killed or maimed as a result.

Hmm, aikido waza comes from Daito ryu waza, and I've never known anyone that was killed or maimed practicing Daito ryu waza...Maybe they are out there though, and I just haven't heard about it.

I suspect accidents happen in all kinds of training though.

Best,
Ron (just trying to discourage too much hyperbole)

James Davis
11-08-2005, 10:55 AM
Hmm, aikido waza comes from Daito ryu waza, and I've never known anyone that was killed or maimed practicing Daito ryu waza...Maybe they are out there though, and I just haven't heard about it.

I suspect accidents happen in all kinds of training though.

Best,
Ron (just trying to discourage too much hyperbole)
O'sensei learned other stuff prior to Daito ryu aikijutsu, and I think that's what the poster was referring to. Many of our empty handed techniques are derived from kenjutsu and yarijutsu movements. O'sensei took movements that were designed to maim, kill, poke, stab, slice and dice and (admittedly with a lot of tinkering) adapted them to defensive unarmed techniques. Cool stuff. :)

Ron Tisdale
11-08-2005, 12:04 PM
Hi James,

I have to disagree that the unarmed techniques in aikido are from anything other than Daito ryu. I have yet to see any substantive proof for that assertion. While Ueshiba Sensei certainly trained in other arts for relatively short periods of time, researchers, scholars, budoka in general have so far failed to show any substantive connection to those arts in relation to our empty hand techniques. Of course, I try to remain open to anything new that comes out...if you have some hard evidence of this, I'd love to see it.

Best,
Ron

Special Appearance
11-08-2005, 01:19 PM
O'sensei learned other stuff prior to Daito ryu aikijutsu, and I think that's what the poster was referring to. Many of our empty handed techniques are derived from kenjutsu and yarijutsu movements. O'sensei took movements that were designed to maim, kill, poke, stab, slice and dice and (admittedly with a lot of tinkering) adapted them to defensive unarmed techniques. Cool stuff. :)

Yes, Mr. Davis you are correct. Thank you.

Mr. Tisdale,

I was just speaking in general. Maybe, I should have said Japanese feudal techniques of war, both empty handed and of weaponry. It wasn't my intention to create a fuss, I was not aware that what I had said would have been a point of contention and taken as you indicated spurring another discussion. I apologize for not being aware of it.


Anat Amitay,

Thanks for the reply. I see your point. We live in a modern age where Fidel piety means different things to different peoples then in Japan say during Osensei's childhood. This may be wrong of me, but if you are taking Aikido seriously like the daughter then conflicting with parents in this type of decision (arguably) might go against the spirit of Aikido. I am not speaking from fanatical position where extremism is the norm. Rather, that after training in Aikido it should be apparent that Fidel piety is a part of training. Aikido is after all a life style. Aikido, as life style / art, has many Japanese cultural components in it, it is not purely a technically mechanical exercise; there has to be to some degree practice of other Japanes cultural practices that makes up Aikido beyond mat etiquette. I think there is a fundemental symbolism between Sensei and parent. If you obey/obeyed your parents you will follow instruction and respect the figure of the Sensei, mirroring the same type of thing between school teacher and parent. IMO. That is where I was coming from, FWIW.

In respect.

Mark Gibbons
11-08-2005, 02:39 PM
So what does "Fidel piety" mean? As for "the daughter going against her parents", that's her business . I certainly don't have my kid enrolled in aikido to give me leverage on her behavior. I can't image a medical student submitting to that kind of over controlling behavior.

Mark

Ron Tisdale
11-08-2005, 02:51 PM
Mr. Tisdale,

I was just speaking in general. Maybe, I should have said Japanese feudal techniques of war, both empty handed and of weaponry. It wasn't my intention to create a fuss, I was not aware that what I had said would have been a point of contention and taken as you indicated spurring another discussion. I apologize for not being aware of it.

Ron is just fine, Mr Tisdale is my Dad! ;)

I don't see any fuss, I just was making a point. No need at all to appologize.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
11-08-2005, 02:55 PM
I believe he meant Filial Piety, as in:

fil·i·al (fl-l)
adj.

Relating to the relationship of offspring to parents.
In genetics, relating to a generation or the sequence of generations following the parental generation.

The state or quality of being pious, especially:
Religious devotion and reverence to God.
Devotion and reverence to parents and family: filial piety.

Mark Gibbons
11-08-2005, 03:07 PM
Yeah, that was my guess too. I really couldn't tell for sure.

Fred Little
11-08-2005, 03:46 PM
Ah....filial piety!

One of the classic neo-Confucian tales of filial piety formerly widely circulated in China and Japan told -- with great approval -- the heartwarming story of a girl so virtuous and devoted to her impoverished parents that she sold herself into prostitution to pay for their burial expenses.

Closer to home, looking to the Founder of Aikido, or his teachers, or his students as guides to appropriate social conduct in 21st Century America is not a terribly productive pursuit, though I suppose we build our justifications for what we've already decided is right out of what straw and mud we have at hand.

Fred Little

Ron Tisdale
11-08-2005, 03:57 PM
:) Hi Fred,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Best,
Ron

James Davis
11-08-2005, 04:48 PM
Hi James,

I have to disagree that the unarmed techniques in aikido are from anything other than Daito ryu. I have yet to see any substantive proof for that assertion. While Ueshiba Sensei certainly trained in other arts for relatively short periods of time, researchers, scholars, budoka in general have so far failed to show any substantive connection to those arts in relation to our empty hand techniques. Of course, I try to remain open to anything new that comes out...if you have some hard evidence of this, I'd love to see it.

Best,
Ron
Where did Daito ryu get its unarmed techniques from...? ;)

Maybe I'm the only guy that sees this, but...

Sankyo is similar to the kenjutsu stance hasso no kamae, the difference being that you hold an arm instead of a sword. When you perform your projection from sankyo, you extend your hands and bring them back to your center, like cutting with a bokken.

Imagine being a swordsman and performing mune tsuki with your weapon into your enemy's belly. To worsen the wound and free the weapon, you twist the blade ninety degrees and step through, cutting all the way across their midsection. Then, holding the sword in jodan no kamae (on top of your head) you turn 180 degrees before bringing a cut straight down, beheading your adversary (who has crumpled forward after being disemboweled)...

Now imagine the same movement, only instead of a sword you hold uke's wrist. With movement designed to kill, you've actually performed a throw...

Shiho Nage. :)

It may be BS to some, but I SEE this stuff when I perform technique. Let your imagination do its thing during solo practice. Perform the throws you know and imagine a sword, spear, or staff in your hand. Cool stuff. :)

Kit
11-08-2005, 05:46 PM
So, special appearance, if a parent tells their child not to do aikido and the child obeys the parent how can that possibly be in keeping with 'the spirit of Aikido' if as a result the child never learns any Aikido? If you have to learn aikido to know about this supposed FILIAL duty (which I've certainly never heard anything about during my training!!) then it all starts to become a bit circular.

IMHO, blind obedience to anyone, Sensei, parents, friends, whoever, is a bad idea and certainly not in keeping with the aikido I've been learning. Respect, yes - unthinking obeisance, no.

doc2b
11-08-2005, 08:37 PM
Hi all,

Just to get things cleared so that you guys can get back on track with my thread:

Yes, I'm a caring parent and I take a keen interest in my children's pursues but I would not stand in their way unless the pursues are extremely detrimental to their wellbeing - drugs for example. My own parents had granted much freedom during my youth and I have done pretty much and enjoyed all the youthful pursues (except drugs) including martial sports.

It has been my daughter's lifelong ambition to become a doctor and surgeon. She has worked very hard to come this far. Being the father's daughter, she also loves sports and outdoor pursues - she loves life just like me. She trusts herself and she trusts her sensei and dojo mates. But, trust can be abused just like those boys who have been viciously injured by an egotistic instructor.

Filial piety is not an issue here. Risk assessment is part of her lifelong education.

doc2b

Ron Tisdale
11-09-2005, 08:37 AM
Where did Daito ryu get its unarmed techniques from...? ;)

From the sword that Sogaku Takeda Sensei studied. He was first and foremost a swordsman, and on the advice of a trusted counselor, decided to focus on the empty hand skills because of the changing times.

Snipping rather obvious discussion on riai...

Now imagine the same movement, only instead of a sword you hold uke's wrist. With movement designed to kill, you've actually performed a throw...

Shiho Nage. :)

No arguement there, the techniques come from the sword.

It may be BS to some, but I SEE this stuff when I perform technique. Let your imagination do its thing during solo practice. Perform the throws you know and imagine a sword, spear, or staff in your hand. Cool stuff. :)

The problem is, this is not what was originally suggested...it was mixed in with hyperbole about the techniques themselves, and some historical implications which don't stand up to scrutiny, specifically:

O'sensei learned other stuff prior to Daito ryu aikijutsu, and I think that's what the poster was referring to.

My contention is that the 'other stuff' that Ueshiba studied is insignificant. The relationship between kenjustsu and aikido's empty hand waza comes from Daito ryu, and Sogaku Takeda and **his** sword experience...not from Ueshiba's earlier studies.

Many of our empty handed techniques are derived from kenjutsu and yarijutsu movements.

Kenjutsu sure...specifically Ono ha Itto ryu in many cases (at least as far as Daito ryu is concerned).. In other cases, other classical ryu studied by Ueshiba's students were borrowed from. Yarijutsu? Do you mean sojutsu? (As far as I know, the term yarijutsu isn't really used that much...but I'm frankly not sure. Jun? any info on that?) There is a great deal of debate about that (specifically the Hozoin ryu connection, or lack there of). I suggest reading some of Meik Skoss's posts on fa.iaido. You'll get a much better frame of reference from that.

Best,
Ron

James Davis
11-09-2005, 11:26 AM
Hmm, aikido waza comes from Daito ryu waza, and I've never known anyone that was killed or maimed practicing Daito ryu waza...Maybe they are out there though, and I just haven't heard about it.

I don't know if he used Daito ryu techniques specifically, but Sokaku Takeda maimed and killed a few people in his time! :dead:

As for aikido techniques not being used to maim or kill...
When a concrete surface is introduced, things can get pretty cruddy for someone being thrown. :( (or if they're thrown over the side of a building's roof) Many of us also know that limbs could be severely hurt if we applied a little more torque just a little bit faster...

It really is all about the intent. I think that Doc2B's daughter should train in aikido, but my opinion is based on my life experiences, not hers. Also in my opinion, she should avoid training with an instructor that's too rough. If his income were dependent upon the well being of his students, perhaps he would treat their bodies with more respect.

There are good instructors out there. I've trained with a few. Don't let one jerk stop someone from learning aikido! There are risks involved with aikido training just as much as there are in petting an animal. Hand injury could result in either! ;)

Ron Tisdale
11-09-2005, 11:42 AM
I've never known anyone that was killed or maimed practicing Daito ryu waza.

Note that we are not talking about self defense, we are not talking about fighting, we are talking about keiko / training / practice. The jump you just made is a very good example of the hyperbole I mentioned earlier.

Best,
Ron (context, context, context)

James Davis
11-09-2005, 12:08 PM
Note that we are not talking about self defense, we are not talking about fighting, we are talking about keiko / training / practice. The jump you just made is a very good example of the hyperbole I mentioned earlier.

Best,
Ron (context, context, context)
Sorry, Ron. I work in a physician's office, and I equate the word PRACTICE with working or doing. I didn't mean to jump.

Special Apperance
11-09-2005, 02:20 PM
Ah....filial piety!

One of the classic neo-Confucian tales of filial piety -- a girl so virtuous and devoted to her impoverished parents sold herself into prostitution to pay for their burial expenses.

Closer to home, looking to the Founder of Aikido, or his teachers, or his students as guides to appropriate social conduct in 21st Century America is not a terribly productive pursuit, though I suppose we build our justifications for what we've already decided is right out of what straw and mud we have at hand.

Fred Little

Pls, allow me to apologize for the gross mispelling of filial as Fidel previously. I don't mean to confuse anyone.

I heard, don't know if it is true, but during the Vet Nam war, many young woman sold themselves for sex to survive. I hear in young Filipinas and other young woman in improverished countries sell themselves for sex to survive. Even worse in some countries the families force their daughters into selling sex to eat. Horrible. With all the issues the US has am sure glad that isn't an option as it in those other countries.

Speaking of the elderly parents, I was told once there was a town in Japan as some time that pushed their parents off a cliff when the got to a certain age, as caring for them was a burned on the children. Boy, I am glad that doesn't happen anymore in Japan, if it did. I guess now in both countries they push the elderly to the side. There is a lack of parental care and respect. Which reminds me of a old movie that dealt with that problem amoung many in Japanese society, it was called something like "Des ka den" (?) by Kurasawa. There is also the Chinese made movie called "Pushing Hands" it deals with how off-spring deal with the elderly.

Of course I wasn't going to such an externme that say so many people splitting hairs. But, consider this. You are in a society that doesn't have medicare, retirement, and all the other things in most modern societies that function for all of us when we get old. Basically, you as a parent are dependent on your childern for you survival and quality of life until you die. What a terrible situation to be in when your family doesn't take care of you. You end up in the street at say 70 years old and you are too old and weak to contribute to society, yet, not on your death bed, you face the harsh realities of trying to survive. All the well knowing no one will help you, no one cares, and you will die from exposure to the elements, starvation or worse. Or you instill in your kids to care for you until you die. You insure, by raising your kids, that they are grateful, and caring and will return in kind your best insterest- if where a good and caring parent. That way you will not die in the street like an abandoned animal in misery. Who wants to die that way?

Well, of course when I mentioned filial piety it was in context of today and modern society. Respect for parents is more accurate if people really require such precise accuracy. For those of us who have raised kids we know the importance of respect a child must have for parents- here we are pointing to good adn caring parents of today- as it is carried on to others in society, such as teachers, and others. To be more detailed, here is where Aikido comes in. Aikido, I would think being a Japanese martial art and Osensei having his students respect him, includes respect for the Sensei. As a Sensei is a teacher. How far you want to go in terms of respect is a personal decision. My reference was that if the daughter trained in Aikido and Aikido has that element to ( what ever degree) of filial piety, then do her practice or training would not take her father's concern lightly. I would expect a snot nose teenager in rebellion mode ( often not know what their are rebelling for) to shrug off any parental advisement. Clearly, this woman ( the daughter ) is beyond that stage and has a mature relationship with her parents. But I could be wrong, she could be a teenager, but I dont' think so. Therefore, even in Western society filial piety does exist regardless if we see it our not. How sad would society be if we mocked filial piety.

Speical Appearence
11-09-2005, 02:31 PM
Opps....sorry about not spell checking prior to my posting. I hit the wrong button. I have a limited amount of time to compose, therefore, I write as I respond, and eat. I have a short time for lunch. It is evident I am unable to do extensive proofing or write a draft prior to posting. I am reposting with spelling corrections. Thank you for your understanding.

________________________________

Pls, allow me to apologize for the gross misspelling of filial as Fidel previously. I don't mean to confuse anyone.

I heard, don't know if it is true, but during the Vet Nam war, many young woman sold themselves for sex to survive. I hear in young Filipinas and other young woman in impoverished countries sell themselves for sex to survive. Even worse in some countries the families force their daughters into selling sex to eat. Horrible. With all the issues the US has am sure glad that isn't an option as it in those other countries.

Speaking of the elderly parents, I was told once there was a town in Japan as some time that pushed their parents off a cliff when the got to a certain age, as caring for them was a burned on the children. Boy, I am glad that doesn't happen anymore in Japan, if it did. I guess now in both countries they push the elderly to the side. There is a lack of parental care and respect. Which reminds me of a old movie that dealt with that problem among many in Japanese society, it was called something like "Des ka den" (?) by Kurosawa. There is also the Chinese made movie called "Pushing Hands" it deals with how off-spring deal with their elderly parents.

Of course, I wasn't going to such an extreme that say so many people splitting hairs. But, consider this. You are in a society that doesn't have Medicare, retirement, and all the other things in most modern societies that function for all of us when we get old. Basically, you as a parent are dependent on your children for you survival and quality of life until you die. What a terrible situation to be in when your family doesn't take care of you. You end up in the street at say 70 years old and you are too old and weak to contribute to society, yet, not on your death bed, you face the harsh realities of trying to survive. All the well knowing no one will help you, no one cares, and you will die from exposure to the elements, starvation or worse. Or you instill in your kids to care for you until you die. You insure, by raising your kids, that they are grateful, and caring and will return in kind your best interest- if where a good and caring parent. That way you will not die in the street like an abandoned animal in misery. Who wants to die that way?

Well, of course, when I mentioned filial piety it was in context of today and modern Western society, since the father and daughter are from the west. Respect for parents is more accurate if people really require such precise accuracy. For those of us who have raised kids we know the importance of respect a child must have for parents- here we are pointing to good and caring parents of today- as it is carried on to others in society, such as teachers, and others. To be more detailed, here is where Aikido comes in. Aikido, I would think being a Japanese martial art and Osensei having his students respect him, includes respect for the Sensei. As a Sensei is a teacher. How far you want to go in terms of respect is a personal decision. My reference was that if the daughter trained in Aikido and Aikido has that element to ( what ever degree) of filial piety, then do her practice or training would not take her father's concern lightly. I would expect a snot nose teenager in rebellion mode ( often not know what their are rebelling for) to shrug off any parental advisement. Clearly, this woman ( the daughter ) is beyond that stage and has a mature relationship with her parents. But I could be wrong, she could be a teenager, but I don't' think so. Therefore, even in Western society filial piety does exist regardless if we see it our not. How sad would society be if we mocked filial piety.

Special Appearance
11-09-2005, 03:16 PM
Real quick, and simple. Respect for parents begets respect for your Sensei which in return begets continued respect for your parents ( Per Sensei -a general respect as defined by Western society as any teacher, professor, or instructor for that position and effort- lets not get weird with this, even though, I know, I can't stop, anyone from getting weird with what I just said, or going to some kind of dictionary to define terms).

I don't think the daughter should stop Aikido, but Aikido isn't a career and we have to be realistic about it. Medicine isn't an easy field. It is very demanding, and more then not, family takes the very back seat. Surgeons and other MDs have a very high rate of suicide and divorce rate which you don't hear about. Therefore, decision must be carefully made IMO. Aikido in the most general Western sense is a hobby. Hey, golf is spiritual too ( let's not get weird on that either).

I would applaud the daughter if she is still doing Aikido in 10 years as a successful surgeon ( plastic surgery is an exception if that is what she will be doing). I say this because their is numerous times where my surgeon friend and I are interrupted, thus never finishing a meal, or conversation without the beeper going off over the years. I can give you a block long list of similar complaints his wife and kids have having a surgeon as a husband and father. I don't think the man is capable of being able to relax. He functions on an average of 2-4 hrs a sleep a night. I think the most he has every had since I known him was 6 hrs during his yearly vacation to keep himself sane. And works on an average 7 days a week, and there is no such thing for him an 8 hr shift as he is either on call or meeting the demands of his Patience's or the hospital's.

The father's concern IMO was not to be argued. A rough class would jeopardize her career if a bad injury took place and it could happen. You can't discount the father's initial concerns. Luckily, she is taking a class under a medically licensed sensei who is aware of her career goals. This according to the father has eased his concerns. You can't put him down for being a father, and put Aikido above that. Aikido is wonderful sure, but people can live without it. And respecting a parents' concern in such a matter maybe more atune to Aikido-like then rejecting a parent's concern. It goes without saying all this is a personal decision, as the father asked for input, thus I gave him what I knew and experienced.

It may upset some that I don't seem to have an Aikido or Bus, or viva la Aikido type attitude. Simply then pls. keep in mind it is my opinion which differs from yours, and I am not trying to rock the boat. Thanks for that consideration. It is greatly appreciated.

Everyone have a nice day, and meaningful practices.

Fred Little
11-09-2005, 07:37 PM
Dear Special Appearance:

Domestic disputes are always dangerous business.

Diagnosis at a distance is dangerous business.

Appeal to concepts drawn from foreign cultures is a dangerous business.

Long distance diagnosis of domestic disputes involving concepts drawn from foreign cultures is a trifecta, and then there's the added factor of an anonymous public inquiry, which is curious in its own right.

Just some observations, take them or leave them as you will.

FL

Special Appearance
11-10-2005, 03:31 PM
Mr. F. Little,

I thank you for your input. I think that you said last goes without saying. Just as people will take the things they read, the way the want to, and not always as intended by the author. We need words and phrases to communicate to others a message. We hope the message we create will come across as intended, as accurately as possible. Any literate and reasonable educated person knows the many difficulties that can happen when dealing with words to communicate an idea. Trying to communicate any idea in a written language faces many difficulties both mechanically, and interpretively; the limitations of the language it's self to accurately get the message across the reader within rules and standards, to how the message is interpreted by the reader. The greatest variable is the reader. Therefore, I think we do the best we can and hope for the best that the reader interprets the message as we intended.


I don't think any one is making a diagnosis and if you concurred that from my writing, I must politely redirect you to read my thoughts again and discuss them with me for clarity and accuracy as deemed as feedback exchange. My thoughts are simply in support of the father and the father's original concerns. I would think those you understand Aikido would, like myself, agree that Aikido as an art supports the father as well, i.e. take serious the concerns of you parents; respect them. I don't see any danger in using the phrase filial piety or being supportive of the decision and concern of the father? I don't see that as domestic dispute. I can't be responsible for how each reader interprets the phrase or meaning it has to each individual.

The father was looking for information concerning a situation his daughter was in. The danger might be the use of filial piety to describe that Aikido, based on its heritage and foundation in Japanese society would support the idea the daughter take her father's concern seriously, if he confronted her with it. I don't think the father would ever want his daughter to choose the career as a prostitute over being a doctor. I don't think that is supported by Aikido either.

At any rate I am not really sure of your message and purpose for saying it. It may simply be a matter of being it is lost on me. That you see another layer and concern for the use of filial piety as defined by your remarks of straw and mud. It may simply being a case of you reading too much into it, and that may come from having too much experience. Because honestly, for me it was nothing more then the daughter who takes Aikido maybe more understanding of her father's concerns because of her training in Aikido then if she didn't because of the idea that both Western and the Japanese culture teach their kids to respect their parents, of course to different degrees and lengths. By know means, did I infer or say anything more then that with the tools of language at hand, hence the term filial piety. Said in the simplest correlation and connection.

Forgive me, but I can't see what the fuss is all about, or rather the concern that mud may come in contact per chance with straw if and when it rains.

John Brockington
02-06-2006, 01:43 PM
Dad of doc2b-
I'm sorry I didn't see this thread until today, because I would have responded to your dilemma when it was more timely, but in any case if you see this message I hope it helps you and your daughter in your considerations on her practicing aikido while preparing for medical school. Let me first say that I am a practicing physician, on faculty in the department of Neurology at the university here, and I am also a shodan in aikido, preparing for nidan test (2nd degree black belt) in a few weeks. I have also experienced various minor and not so minor injuries in aikido, including separating both acromioclavicular joints (AC joints) on different occasions. On both occasions, it was painful and inconvenient and affected my sleep more than anything, but I eventually recovered completely. I seriously doubt if I could have performed surgery during the six or so weeks of initial healing, but now can detect no impairment of fine motor control on either side. But let me add something else, which is really why I'm writing this. Aikido has helped me immeasurably in practicing medicine, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Because aikido requires really blending with situations and conflict more than totally dictating a response, I am much less judgemental of my patients, more accepting of their foibles (and my own), and in many ways feel closer to them than before. I think that I take people and situations on their own terms more now, and I certainly feel a lot less stress because of this. You may or may not know this, but in medical school and residency training there is often an emphasis on "fixing the problem," and your daughter will get a huge dose of this in a surgical residency. Well, guess what? Some things can't be "fixed" or simply taken care of, some patients are uncooperative and resentful, some doctors are petulant, entitled and unhappy, and so on. There is a lot more to the practice of medicine than knowing diseases and treatments, and a whole lot of it is how one deals with people and ones' self when under stress. The more skills your daughter has to deal with a position of extreme stress and responsibility, aside from just the necessary capacity for the intellectual/physical practice of medicine, the better off she and her patients will be in the long run. Please contact me if I can be of any more help with this. John Brockington