PDA

View Full Version : Aikido Rank from Shinto Crest?


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Rink
10-05-2005, 09:23 PM
"the founder of aikido, was very mystically and spiritually oriented. Seagal believes O-Sensei formed his ranking system based on the concept of an ancient Shinto crest. He said the nine circles around the outside of the crest all represented planets. The middle circle represented divine heaven on earth."

Can anyone expand on this, or know any more about?
Does anyone know where I can find a picture of this crest?

The original article can be found here:
http://www.shotokai.cl/ensayos/62_eg_.html

PeterR
10-05-2005, 10:36 PM
The ranking system is based on Kano's for Judo.

The ancient Shinto's had no idea about 9 planets.

The link doesn't work.

Rink
10-06-2005, 02:57 AM
The ranking system is based on Kano's for Judo.

The ancient Shinto's had no idea about 9 planets.

Something did seem a little off about that part of the article, thank you to bring to light one of the reasons why.

The link doesn't work.

Not sure why, when I click on it from this thread it work's. Maybe a browser issue?

Anyway thanks for clearing that up.
Eddie

PeterR
10-06-2005, 03:12 AM
Still doesn't work for me but www.shotokai.com does. Perhaps you can find the article there and tell us which one.

I also notice it is a Karate organization - possibly not the best source of Aikido.

Rink
10-06-2005, 06:32 AM
I came across the link looking for comparitive essays on aikido,
Which the link above seems to be a low-fi version of the original which when I went to the main site, and was able to find......
Try this link: http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/interviews/karaaiki.html
and if that doesn't work, just go to the main website > at the top it says "Interviews, Articles and Historical Information" > then to "Comparing Karate and Aikido by Tom Muzila"
At the bottom it says the article appeared in Black Belt Magazine, April 1988 but the quote above seemed a bit off to me, so I thought I would ask those of you who would know better then I.

No disrespect is meant towards Seagal Sensei, but does anyone know his qualifications for his assumption / knowledge on what Osensei's intent in the ranking system of Aikido was?

Or does this interview look like something that was never really discussed with him, and is only using bits of Seagal Sensei's previous statements?

Thank you.
Eddie

akiy
10-06-2005, 07:28 AM
does anyone know his qualifications for his assumption / knowledge on what Osensei's intent in the ranking system of Aikido was?
The following is a snippet from a post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=58222&postcount=102) from a thread called, Does Rank Really Matter? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4636):

On the subject of rankings and the founder of aikido, from what I understand, the founder was pretty (to put it a bit flippantly) willy nilly about giving people their dan rankings. When "aikido" was first established with the Dai Nippon Butotukai, he basically gave out dan rankings. I wrote a while back in 1999 on this subject on Aikido-L:
Interestingly enough, I was just reading about the Butokukai and the dan ranking system in an article that was written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba sensei in Aikido Tankyo #15. Part of it went like this (my loose translation from the Japanese article):

"The aikido division of the All Japan Botokukai was established in the 17th year of the Showa period (1942). [snip]

"The Japan Butokukai was established in the 28th year of the Meiji era (1895) and had within it Judo and Kendo.

"Kaiso was not very fond of joining these kinds of organizations or groups, and he did not like getting in contact with other budo. For that, it seemed as though he did not care to join the Butokukai. [snip]

"The dan ranking system of aikido was created at the time aikido joined the Botokukai. Until then, it did not seem as though Kaiso was thinking about the dan ranking system. Because judo and kendo were both in the Butokukai and they both had the dan ranking system, there arose a need for aikido to do likewise.

"Although I was thinking about what to do [as far as giving out dan rankings] in the case of aikido, because it was so sudden, Kaiso pretty much devised them himself. 'Tomiki and Inoue are probably around eighth dan. Hirai is still young, so he'll be fourth dan.' (Hirai was the representative for aikido in the Botokukai.)

"So it went like that. However, having our representative be only 4th dan wouldn't have been appropriate to the other budo, and it seemed that a person must be at least 5th dan to be in the Butokukai, Hirai was given a 6th dan."

That's the relevant part regarding dan rankings. But, Ueshiba sensei goes on to say some other interesting stuff:

"As an aside, joining the Butokukai had a big influence on calling our art 'Aikido.'

"Before then, although the art was being called 'Aikido," at the same time, it was also called 'Ueshiba-ryu Jujutsu,' 'Aiki Jujutsu,' 'Aiki Budo,' and others. Kaiso didn't seem to have much concern about really pinpointing one name for the art at the time.

"After this [joining of the Butokukai], there seems to have been a conscientious effort to call the art 'Aikido.'"

-- Jun

Robert Rumpf
10-06-2005, 11:00 AM
And here I thought it came from "nine ladies dancing"... :)

Ron Tisdale
10-06-2005, 11:27 AM
Hi Robert,

It was one lady, she was dancing with a naginata, and I think 'he' gave her 10th dan...

;)
Best,
Ron

Rink
10-06-2005, 03:25 PM
Very Interesting!

Thank you.
Eddie

tedehara
10-06-2005, 05:54 PM
"the founder of aikido, was very mystically and spiritually oriented. Seagal believes O-Sensei formed his ranking system based on the concept of an ancient Shinto crest. He said the nine circles around the outside of the crest all represented planets. The middle circle represented divine heaven on earth."

Can anyone expand on this, or know any more about?..."Since prehistoric times skywatchers have distinguished the five planets visible to the unaided eye from myriad stars overhead. They watched and named them, and recorded their appearance and movement. Today, we call them Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn."
Space.com (http://www.seti.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=194993&ct=221042)

PeterR
10-06-2005, 07:06 PM
No disrespect is meant towards Seagal Sensei, but does anyone know his qualifications for his assumption / knowledge on what Osensei's intent in the ranking system of Aikido was?
Probably more than most; he is an Aikikai 7th Dan and was an Omoto-kyo priest (just about every member is). Omoto-kyo is neo-shintoist. Most of his time in Japan was in Osaka.