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Rupert Atkinson
10-03-2005, 06:12 PM
OK, we all do suwari-waza, unique in the world to Japanese arts. Here in Korea it is never done, or so I thought. Last Sunday I saw it done for the first time in Korea - on a tight-rope. Yup - on a tight-rope. So, I wonder, can you imagine how that is possible?

Amassus
10-03-2005, 07:49 PM
Um, that IS different.

aikigirl10
10-03-2005, 08:38 PM
strange

ChrisHein
10-03-2005, 08:58 PM
When I teach suwariwaza, I often tell my class that it's usefulness is mostly as a coordination and strength builder now. And that it's uncommon to use unless you're often in the court of an ancient Shogun. However if I ever find myself on a tight rope with need to do suwariwaza, I'll prolly just drop dead from shock.

-Chris Hein

Jeanne Shepard
10-03-2005, 09:26 PM
I use Aikido as a therapeutic activity for kids. In my experience suwari waza is excellent for developing trunk control. (For anyone).

Jeanne :p

Keith R Lee
10-03-2005, 09:50 PM
I always found suwari-waza difficult and odd. Honestly, I found shikko odd as well. It's not that diffult once you get the hang of it, but the constant practice always struck me as unecessary. Suwari-waza seems largely unecessary as well. I've tried to reason out some use for it but am at a loss. It doesn't really build strength, coordination, or trunk control in any greater way than say core-body conditioning and the movements that are performed standing. Not to mention conditioning of any sort should, IMHO, be left to the student to handle outside of the class. They're there to learn Aikido, not get in shape. If getting in marginal shape from studying Aikido is a by-product, great.

Sure, it upholds a cultural practice, but one not really necesary. More time could be spent on other techniques. A lack of suwari-waza would not be that detremential to a student I think.

Rupert Atkinson
10-03-2005, 10:14 PM
Well, I should clarify - it was not exactly suwari-waza, rather just shikko - walking along the tight-rope using shikko. And shikko of a kind I have only seen one teacher do - tsugi-ashi (not ayumi-ashi). The teacher is Omura Hiroaki (Kawasaki / Yokohama).

Rupert Atkinson
10-03-2005, 10:18 PM
Sure, [suwari-waza] upholds a cultural practice, but one not really necesary. More time could be spent on other techniques. A lack of suwari-waza would not be that detremential to a student I think.

I tend to differ. I really like it. I know some / many of my students hate it but I find that once shown how to do it smoothly and efficiently they find it really can be quite fun. There are also certain lessons therein that help understand movement. I am not saying it is absolutely necessary (other arts do fine without it), just that it can be useful.

asiawide
10-03-2005, 10:25 PM
This is a kind of circus in Korea called 'Rope Riding'

http://www.pabal21.com/news/photo/113-2-402.jpg

Jaemin

Rupert Atkinson
10-03-2005, 11:49 PM
I have a video of it but it will take time to get it on the web. The person I saw doing it was a guy in his fifties.

mathewjgano
10-03-2005, 11:52 PM
I find the dislike for suwari-waza usually revolves around the fact that it's uncomfortable for most of us. I rather like it (when not in pain from it) for the exercise in trying to move quickly from a seated position. Also, considering it is a more stable position I find it great for learning kuzushi principles. I always feel less likely to fall over when taking ukemi in this position so I'm infering from that along with the fact that your center is lower to the ground. As nage it's good to practice technique on someone who has a very stable base: increase the stability of your partner and you increase, in my inexperienced opinion, your ability to learn kuzushi principles. I imagine hanmi handachi where nage is standing would be even better.

nekobaka
10-04-2005, 12:50 AM
As far as not being useful, I think it teaches you what to do if you are knocked down and are being attacked before you can get up again. it gives you a chance to get up again.

Rupert Atkinson
10-04-2005, 01:18 AM
As an aside, I always found seiza to be quite a useful starting position for Judo groundwork - and vice-versa, it helped solidify my seiza. When starting sitting back-to-back (we used to do it like that - and if you both turn the same side you crack your heads), I would quickly turn while entering seiza. While not always successful, I felt it was useful.

Berney Fulcher
10-04-2005, 06:37 AM
As far as not being useful, I think it teaches you what to do if you are knocked down and are being attacked before you can get up again. it gives you a chance to get up again.
This is exactly what our Sensei told us the other day as the the real life application of suri-waza and hanmi-handach technique.

deepsoup
10-04-2005, 08:15 AM
And shikko of a kind I have only seen one teacher do - tsugi-ashi (not ayumi-ashi). The teacher is Omura Hiroaki (Kawasaki / Yokohama).
Done with one knee up and one down? ("kyoshi"?) If so I've come across that before, as the standard form of shikko in the judo Katame no Kata.

Pretty impressive to do it on a tightrope, though when I read your first post I thought you were referring to the "normal" ayumi-ashi type shikko. I'd be *really* impressed by someone who can do that on a tight rope. :)

Sean
x

batemanb
10-04-2005, 11:49 AM
Suwari waza and shikko are good methods for developing the use of the hips, which in turn helps develop power. When you stand up and use the same power, it magnifies the effect.

rgds

Bryan

j0nharris
10-04-2005, 12:34 PM
I use Aikido as a therapeutic activity for kids. In my experience suwari waza is excellent for developing trunk control. (For anyone).
Jeanne :p
So, it would be good for elephants, too.. :D
Kind of hard to picture that!

Janet Rosen
10-04-2005, 12:41 PM
I can't do suwariwaza any more due to a damaged knee, and I have to say I MISS IT. I don't think it is healthy to the joints to do a lot of it. But the lessons it taught me about center of gravity, moving from center were innvaluable. And it was fun.

MaryKaye
10-04-2005, 02:07 PM
I am being forced to learn suwari waza, not by my teachers but by the kid students--we have several small but very skilled kids, and for many techniques I need to be on my knees. I feel it's been helpful in understanding the core of a technique rather than using lots of extra movement to "grease the wheels". It took me a long time to be able to do shihonage with the little gymnastics student without having her grin and push me over!

Knee pads can help with the discomfort. We have tatami, and my teachers encourage everyone to wear them. (And schedule extra suwari waza and shikko when we don't!)

Mary Kaye

bogglefreak20
10-05-2005, 08:29 AM
I can't do suwariwaza any more due to a damaged knee, and I have to say I MISS IT. I don't think it is healthy to the joints to do a lot of it. But the lessons it taught me about center of gravity, moving from center were innvaluable. And it was fun.


It seem my experience are somewhat different - I too had quite some problems with my knees (damaged cartilage etc.) but since I started doing Ki Aikido it's all gotten better. Mainly because of two things: constantly getting up and down from the tatami during practice makes good quadriceps-fitness training and moderate suwariwaza (key word: moderate!) provides a nice joint massage. We usually do it once to twice a week for about 20 min. But that's not all - if you do your suwariwaza regularly, you don't have to do your knees when waxing/shaving your legs. ;) :D

Mats Alritzson
10-05-2005, 10:36 AM
It took me a long time to be able to do shihonage with the little gymnastics student without having her grin and push me over!

You do shihonage in children's class? In our basic form shihonage affects the wrist. We don't teach techniques that could hurt joints to children. How do you teach it?

Rupert Atkinson
10-05-2005, 06:40 PM
You do shihonage in children's class? In our basic form shihonage affects the wrist. We don't teach techniques that could hurt joints to children. How do you teach it?

You don't need to affect/hurt the wrist to do shiho-nage. Think of the pain as a variation :)