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Tubig
09-06-2005, 09:31 PM
Hello fellow aikidokas.

I am doing my grading soon, and I have some good combinations of techniques at hand that will be flowing for the Jiu waza multiple attacker part of it in the end of the grading, that is just limited to my knowledge and experience. Hence I would appreciate hearing suggestions for some good and powerful combinations from you my brothers and sisters from the world aikido community.

My question is 'Do you have any suggestions for any combinations of techniques that is easy, flowing :ai: , not too involving (so I do not get stuck with the technique, whilst I get attack from behind), tactical so I am aware of other ukes, and efficient so it does not waste energy :ki: '?

eg. Kokyu nage and irimi nage combinations are easy, smooth, it has direction; hence it strategically does not wear me out too much (eventhough Im suppose to be relaxed and not tired; hence I'm not a Shihan at this stage), tactically it has directional control of ukes and form for myself because of energy :ki: conservation.

Single Techniques are good, but I would love to hear suggestions that have good combinations because it is after all jiuwaza with multiple attackers, which requires more than one technique. Also it is a grading so I need to demonstrate multiple techniques :do: .

I would probably get comments like I should not plan :rolleyes: the defence. But my comment to that one is I rather know a few combinations as weapon than get a mental blank in the middle of it because of tiredness, and nerves in a grading.

So please let the energy :ai: and techniques :do: flow. :)

Aristeia
09-06-2005, 09:54 PM
Well these things really are hard to pre plan. I've gone into jiyu waza convinced I'm going to do certain things but it's other things that have actually come out.
In terms of general advice I would spend some time taking attacks and just entering into the attack until the point of technique selection. This is the most crucial part of jiyu waza - identifiying the attack early, entry and turning your entry into a technique. Everything after should be easy, so spend some time just drilling that. I've also found it useful to switch between very blendy through them through in the direction of their attack type techs, and more direct throw them back where they came from type techs when things are getting repetitive.

As always, if you find you are doing the same tech all the time, change your entry, this will usually force you to change your technique. And make sure that once you've entered and taken the balance of attacker A, your focus is on attacker B as your body completes the throw. The sooner you pick up attacker B the easier it is to see and deal with their attacks. I've seen too many people have complete focus on Attacker A until they are actually thrown and by that stage Attacker B is already on them (or waiting around for the tech to finish which looks even worse)

Tubig
09-06-2005, 10:15 PM
Michael: I totaly agree with you pre planning is not a very good idea with random multiple attacks. Anticipation of a technique can be the end of defence itself. That is why I am seeking simple effective combos that are easy to summon and let go as well.

I like your idea of entering differently when techniques become repetitive. Thanks :)

Tubig
09-06-2005, 10:50 PM
Another Combo that was suggested to me was Shomen Ate, Koyu Nage, and Koshi Nage. It flows very well.

SeiserL
09-06-2005, 10:59 PM
IMHO, randori/jiyuwaza is not to be a preselected choreographed sequence of combinations, therefor I would suggest just enter and blend until the technique presents or executes itself.

Yann Golanski
09-07-2005, 03:47 AM
Well, come and train in any Shodokan dojo and you'll see a lot of combinations. That's what we spend most of our time doing in randori training.

First and foremost, break balance. Secondly, do simple techniques. And thirdly don't do complicated techniques. I know that the last two are the same but they are so important that they cannot be stressed enough. If uke resists strongly, the first balance breaker will not work. You'll have to switch to a different one which may work. When you are throwing uke, your attention should be on the next attacker. If you can throw uke towards that attacker, so much the better -- it gives you some time to breath.

Lastly, "mu shin, mu gamae" (no mind, no posture) is a good advice.

xuzen
09-07-2005, 04:35 AM
Well, come and train in any Shodokan dojo and you'll see a lot of combinations. That's what we spend most of our time doing in randori training.

First and foremost, break balance. Secondly, do simple techniques. And thirdly don't do complicated techniques. I know that the last two are the same but they are so important that they cannot be stressed enough. If uke resists strongly, the first balance breaker will not work. You'll have to switch to a different one which may work. When you are throwing uke, your attention should be on the next attacker. If you can throw uke towards that attacker, so much the better -- it gives you some time to breath.

Lastly, "mu shin, mu gamae" (no mind, no posture) is a good advice.

...and don't forget the all important atemi... if the first atemi does not work, atemi and atemi again till it work. What do I know... I am just an ATEMI kind of guy.

Boon.

Yann Golanski
09-07-2005, 05:30 AM
...and don't forget the all important atemi... if the first atemi does not work, atemi and atemi again till it work. What do I know... I am just an ATEMI kind of guy.


I see... fineness and precission in Yoshinkan also known as "pounding the c*** out of uke".... hey, I like it. I wish there was a Yoshinkan club close by.

*grins evilly*

Aristeia
09-07-2005, 03:58 PM
The other thing I find useful is to group techniques together into lumps. For instance with the entry to shiho nage comes juji nage, aiki otoshi, koshi nage, kote gaeshi nage. Once you have a good understanding of which techniques hang off which entry - if you find you're stuck doing shiho nage the whole time you can just go down to the next technique on the list that shiho nage is in. Not sure if that makes sense but I know what I'm talking about even if you don't :-)

Choku Tsuki
09-07-2005, 04:26 PM
Well you've already heard the nugget about 'planning on being spontaneous' so I'll just answer your question as best as I can.

Think of techniques you like that can change into another or into a breakfall. I'd stay away from koshi nage in a randori; just as I would from other techniques that rely on pins.

Udekimenage can turn easily into shihonage. When and if depends whether the other ukes are in front of behind you. Kotegaeshi is good too; you can throw either to front of back with that as well.

Othewise, your randori is a form of self-expression; go with what you like and what's easy-breezy.

--Chuck

giriasis
09-07-2005, 05:03 PM
How I train for jiyuwaza is to train techniques that are similar to one another and to be aware which techniques can easily flow into others, especially if you are training to demonstrate a variety of techniques.

If you can get to shihonage, you can get to: ude kime, kotegaeshi, iriminage, koshinage (using the shihonage grip)
If you can get to ikkyo, you can do: nikkyo through gokyo, hijishime, kaitennage, ude garama, koshinage, iriminage

Also train on your openings such as irimi, tenkan (also tenshin, uchi and soto where I train) from each opening different techniques are more practical.

Zato Ichi
09-07-2005, 09:32 PM
Cromwell Salvatera, some clarification please: are you talking about randori or jiyuwaza? They're quite different IMO and, hence, require different approaches.

Tubig
09-07-2005, 09:42 PM
Zato: I am talking of both.

Jiu Waza- Combinations for my grading with muliple attacker

Randori- For general combinations for multiple attackers

:)

Tubig
09-07-2005, 10:00 PM
Zato Itchi: I am talking of both. I should have made myself clearer, thank you for pointing that out mate much appreciated.

Jiu Waza- Combinations for my grading with muliple attackers. Looking combinations of techniques that is also demonstrative and good for a dan grading. My aim here is have clean combinations of techniques, posture, form, distance, zanshin, flow, and to demonstrate that to my shihan.

Randori- For general combinations of techniques in a multiple attacker situation for training purposes in the dojo leading up to the grading. So I can get used to multiple attackers with random attacks and not get overewhelmed by it. Still achieving and maintaining the quality of the form that is expected in the dojo.

So far all the suggestions help. Because my old school is Tomiki aikido my primary technique combinations in randori are the first five atemiwaza techniques. I have learned a lot of combinations through jiuwaza in Iwama ryu, which I am doing my grading with. I guess what I am seeking and asking from other aikidokas and other ryus is: if there are suggestions of any good and effective technique combinations that they have used and experienced.

:)

Yann Golanski
09-08-2005, 03:29 AM
I guess what I am seeking and asking from other aikidokas and other ryus is: if there are suggestions of any good and effective technique combinations that they have used and experienced.


Each good randori player I know of has several "weapons" (aka favourite techniques) that they use. It depends on thier own skills, abilities and training. There is no magic bullet, just lots of training.

Best thing you can do is try things out yourself. See what works for you <= this is the key of learning Aikido and in a general sense of all martial arts.

Abasan
09-13-2005, 01:55 AM
Has anyone ever tried not doing techniques at all for jiyuwaza/randori part of testing. Instead just movements, and balance breaking with the odd shomen ate here and there?

Would you fail?

My idea is that you won't fail because you're not getting hit, and you are controlling ukes... but I don't know for certain. Are the testing sensei looking for techniques in this situation?

Dirk Hanss
09-13-2005, 04:48 AM
Has anyone ever tried not doing techniques at all for jiyuwaza/randori part of testing. Instead just movements, and balance breaking with the odd shomen ate here and there?

Would you fail?

My idea is that you won't fail because you're not getting hit, and you are controlling ukes... but I don't know for certain. Are the testing sensei looking for techniques in this situation?

Hi Ahmad,

maybe that depends on organisation and the rank you are testing for.

I was told, in shodan test, randori against 3 uke, most candidates do not do any technique, just survive. For nidan you should be able to do some techniques and for sandan, you should be able to control the uke (all three), but not necessarily syllabus like techniques.

Jiyu waza, I was told, is free technique on a known list of potential attacks (1 uke), and you should be able to perform techniques as taught, important is control, not style.

But obviously other organisations have even other defiinitions and certainly other requirements. Some see randori as rule-based competition, and some insist in correct style.

That does not help very much, but hopefully it is a start :).

Cheers Dirk

Ron Tisdale
09-13-2005, 08:36 AM
Hi,

I'm trying to get a handle on what you mean by combos...some 'combos' I like are:

Combine koshinage with just about anything. Shiho, irimi, kotegaeshi, ude osae...just about anything.

Sequences I like:

Go for nikajo, enter under uke's arm when they resist, turn and throw with kotegaeshi. You can add entering with one leg first and combining koshinage...

Go for ikkajo, when they resist, enter under uke's arm and throw with koshinage.

In a more competitive environment, shoulder throw when someone does iriminage. Also works well for entering into side control and ground work (thanks Ellis!).

Sutemi when they go for nikajo.

Iriminage when they go for kotegaeshi.

Especially for koshinage in randori...don't load uke on the hips. Just enter with one side, then body change (kaiten), and lead them over your hips as you turn them (your hips) parallel to the floor. :) works really smoothly, you're not stuck with someone's weight, and other attackers don't get the opportunity to mob you.

Best,
Ron

cconstantine
09-13-2005, 11:18 AM
During our tests (where appropriate according to rank) students perform a form of jiyuwaza we call "freestyle" in addition to more normal randori. These two elements are always the last two parts of a test.

Randori is done with ukes performing only katatori (actually, two handed shoulder or two handed lapel grabs.) Nage need only move out of each uke's direct path and throw them along in their original direction. One of the main points being to demonstrate movement in the context of the whole group, staying focused, relaxed, etc. The person perform the exam stops this exercise when they see fit. (Normally, in the "up" period of nage's second wind so things end on a high note.)

Next (and this is the final part of the test), nage must deal with each uke performing one "effective" technique. Ukes are free to select any attack except katatori -- punches, grabs, kicks, etc. (no weapons though.) The ukes try to keep the level of the attacks appropriate; there's a clear difference between a 3rd kyu test and sandan test. Mostly, students choose kokyunage of some sort -- in the time it takes you do a formal sankyo and take down, your other ukes have arrived. So in this later part (what we call "freestyle") there is very little "syllabus" technique performed.

seank
09-13-2005, 06:04 PM
Has anyone ever tried not doing techniques at all for jiyuwaza/randori part of testing. Instead just movements, and balance breaking with the odd shomen ate here and there?

We actually do pure avoidance as part of some gradings; nage is not supposed to physically contact their uke during this part of the jiyu waza. Very interesting to try and also quite difficult to maintain, however it is very instructive...

I graded over the weekend and threw in a couple of avoidance techniques to gain distance and to take a bit of a breather from the jiyu waza. Nothing was said to the contrary in doing this and it seemed to make the jiyu waza a little smoother overall ;)

Abasan
09-14-2005, 02:13 AM
Dirk, Sean... thanks. I figured it would be ok because in my first dojo in Manchester, UK, the sensei was quite relaxed in the application of techniques for randori.

But i asked really because after experimenting, I found that I moved better when I don't force myself to find techniques in Randori and jiyuwaza. Instead, by moving better in natural response to Uke, I find I can unbalance him easily and from there I can throw him using kokyunage (variety). If I resort to thinking about techniques, then I tend to lose Ukes energy and it gets down to using my own to start a technique. Hence making me tired.

And I'm not sure if this fits the bill of combos or not, but when I move easy, I find it easy to do ryotemochi kokyu, and then as he come again, I do another kokyu (ai hanmi style).

xuzen
09-14-2005, 03:21 AM
Ahmad,

One other way of doing jiyu waza, is to push/shove uke into each other, this will buy you some crucial micro-seconds to catch a breather or to reorganize your thoughts. Just avoiding is not good enough, what we also do in dojo's jiyu waza is to use our bony part of body to ram into uke's soft part, e.g., shoulder into solar plexus to disorientate or slow down uke's attack. This is crucial when doing multiple partner jiyu waza. Another really nasty trick is to crouch suddenly and slam into uke's knees, which will effective trip the uke. Really really nasty technique... and is a legitimate technique in the Yoshinkan technical repertoire.

Abasan
09-27-2005, 01:01 AM
Thanks.

Still, I see a lot of potential problems for Randori if its at the speed seen in Stevan Seagal's dojo (path beyond thought).