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feck
09-03-2005, 02:39 AM
Hi people,

I would just like to say my heart go's out to the people of New Orleans and the surrounding areas affected by the hurricane and flooding.

What bothers me about the situation is that the richest nation in the world, has taken five days to just start to help people with food and water. Why is it that people who are starving and dying for lack of water, are being arrested for looting shops for said products?
Where are the bottled water companies, in this time of crisis? Where are the baby formula companies in this time of crisis? Why is it that every time you see anyone involved with the crisis, they are pleading and cursing the government, and yet when you see the president he is being cuddled or kissed by people involved? Are these photo opportunities?

I'm extremely sorry if any of my comments upset anyone, but people are dying and need help, and five days for help in such a nation, to me, is disgusting.

PaulieWalnuts
09-03-2005, 05:53 AM
This is a terrible event for your countrys history, id like to ask a question for the americans here. i see on the news that godalmightybush himself has ordered a no tolerance to looting, and shoot to kill, i can see why in certain situations, BUT IS IT TRUE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE CHOOSING NOT TO STARVE TO DEATH ARE BEING INCLUDED IN THIS?
if so your president is finished. :mad:

Mark Uttech
09-03-2005, 06:34 AM
This is a simple situation that shows us how close Hell is to us all. Images of Hell abound.

Thomas Ambrose
09-03-2005, 06:05 PM
If I recall, an interview with one of the people in charge of the relief efforts, and I forget which one, said that the soldiers on the ground will excercise good judgement in terms of looters. This was responding to the interviewer asking if people taking "water and diapers" count as looters, or just those people with a cart full of VCRS. I sincerly doubt that people taking food and other survival essentials will be arrested, unless they are doing so violently and shooting at aid convoys to get those supplies.

More importantly, I am extremely sad about the whole situation. I have been to New Orleans a few times and remember it as a beautiful city with amazing culture and warm people. I think this whole thing also shows that the worst is always possible, not matter who, how rich, or how prepared a country is.. Supplies must be gathered, people organized, and then safely taken into a city which is still pretty much underwater. It is no easy task and frankly I am amazed about how much has been done already. Sadly however, it is not enough.

I think the best thing for us all to do right now, is focus on getting aid out there. It is very easy to point fingers and blame individuals, agencies, but that debate can wait. For now, there are more important things to take care of, like getting aid to the people who need it.

For sure, New Orleans, and the other affected communities are in my thoughts and heart. I shall be partipating an a little fundraiser tomorrow to do what little I can to help out. I am not sure if this violates forum rules or not... but here is a link to donate to the Red Cross, which is one way you can help out, if you so chose...

http://s1.amazon.com/paypage/PELYGQVJ8Q7IB/102-3078044-8460954

Camille Lore
09-03-2005, 06:51 PM
God bless all the people suffering now.
Of course those are photo opportunities with Bush. I am sure those people are prescreened.
If we had more National Guard and money here, in this country instead of trying to rebuild a country we are destroying, we may be able to help the victims more.

Lorien Lowe
09-04-2005, 01:32 AM
if so your president is finished. :mad:


We can only hope!...the next election is so far away, though...

Nick Simpson
09-05-2005, 11:29 AM
I dont believe very much I read in the papers, but if there is an inkling of truth in what i have read, then this superdome place is basically hell on earth as they are calling it. I cant think of any other words to describe what I have read/seen on tv about it. I really hope they sort it out quickly over there, but I think there has already been so much suffering that its possibly too late for many of the victims stuck in there...

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 11:27 AM
I hope the best for all affected by this tragedy.

My personal opinion...Bush and his entire administration should be impeached for gross dereliction of duty.

Best,
Ron

Chuck Clark
09-06-2005, 12:01 PM
My personal opinion...Bush and his entire administration should be impeached for gross dereliction of duty.

Hear, Hear!!

Add my vote to that impeachment. They are guilty of gross dereliction of duty in more than one arena. But then, they have another agenda that, from their own lips, doesn't follow man's laws. :yuck:

Hogan
09-06-2005, 12:10 PM
...My personal opinion...Bush and his entire administration should be impeached for gross dereliction of duty.

Best,
Ron

Sheesh... will you next blame Bush FOR the hurrican ?

What about the New Orleans Mayor, who, only after being begged by Bush, did he order an evacuation ? (And he (Mayor) still failed to enforce it). Or, how about Mother Nature, for providing the huge flood waters that inhibited aid ? Or how about the idiots who STILL refuse to evacuate, thereby delaying aid to survivors because evacuations had to take place (and by air mind you, 'cuz of flooding). Or how about anyone responsible for destroying the wetlands around the area over the years, which would have acted as a buffer to any hurrican ?

There is plenty blame to go around. In disasters like this, local officials are responsible first, with federal aid to come later, generally within 48 hrs of the event. The feds actually started preparing days in advance, and had to BEG the mayor to evacuate (the city has, by they way, an evacuation plan that lasts 72 hrs - meaning the entire city can be empty in 72 hrs - BUT the need 72 hrs - and the mayor waited how long ?).

Any deaths caused by this event rests squarely on the sholders of the Mayor and his refusal to evecuate early, his refusal to enforce it, and his 'blame everyone else' attitude. THAT is gross dereliction.

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 12:29 PM
Nope, I won't blame Bush for the hurricane, so you can leave the hyperbole out of it, thanks. :D

And the voters will have their chance at the mayor come the next election. In fact, the mayor has said he's willing to be critisized along with anyone else, and his record will stand or fall accordingly.

All levels of government will have to answer for this debacle; they knew for years that this could happen, and did nothing. To wait for years and do nothing, and then to wait for 2 more days while people were dying is criminal.

The federal government did not fufill it's promise to the people. I think it was gross dereliction of duty. I think that Bush needs to go. From what I can see, he didn't give a rat's arse about poor black people dying and suffering (or poor whites either), and it's time he was called on the carpet for it. But he'd rather foment terrorism by invading soverign powers 'cause 'he tried to kill my daddy'...

Or do we only impeach people these days for certain parts of their anatomy going where they're not supposed to (sheesh, what a waste of time THAT was)?

Best,
Ron

Hogan
09-06-2005, 01:22 PM
...Or do we only impeach people these days for certain parts of their anatomy going where they're not supposed to (sheesh, what a waste of time THAT was)?

Best,
Ron

I had to think a bit on that one....

I just want to know how people expected to get aid when (i) there was flooding, and (ii) there were people to evacuate that shoulda' been gone. Can you tell me how, so we can do it the next time ?

I think the folks there have done a great job getting aid to folks & evacuating folks with what they had to face (beauracracy, included).

Mashu
09-06-2005, 01:53 PM
I'm not sure how accurate these stories are or how hyberbolic but they were interesting:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0904-01.htm

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/16455/30830

http://constructiveinterference.blogspot.com/2005/09/local-failure-caused-by-fema.html

Hogan
09-06-2005, 01:57 PM
I'm not sure how accurate these stories are or how hyberbolic but they were interesting:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0904-01.htm

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/16455/30830

http://constructiveinterference.blogspot.com/2005/09/local-failure-caused-by-fema.html

Add this...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168582,00.html
Listening to the Times?

A New York Times editor, oh, by the way, asked, "Why New Orleans’ levees remained so inadequate? Where was Congress before it wandered off to vacation engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area’s flood protection?"

The answer may be that they were reading old "Times" editorials. In 1993, the Times wrote that Washington should, "resist pressure to spend more on flood-control projects." In 1997, the Times praised moderate Republicans for protecting the environment by blocking flood-control spending.

And in April of this year, the Times ripped a Senate bill that would have injected $17 billion into flood-control measures, including what the Times called a $2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River, saying that bill was "bad legislation."

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 02:06 PM
I had to think a bit on that one....

I just want to know how people expected to get aid when (i) there was flooding, and (ii) there were people to evacuate that shoulda' been gone. Can you tell me how, so we can do it the next time ?

I think the folks there have done a great job getting aid to folks & evacuating folks with what they had to face (beauracracy, included).

They expected to get aid by having an organized method of getting to people (boats, helicopter, etc.) exactly as it developed six days into the crisis. Flooding alone doesn't work as an excuse, since people have been dealing with floods for many years now.

People that have no car, no money, can't evacuate. They must be evacuated. That's part of the problem...no one took into account the poor. There would always be some hold outs (there are now in fact), but that is not the majority of people.

I think that since the news media made the misery highly visible, people finally got off their butts and got things going very well. My problem is how long that took to happen. And the fact that it was known for years that this WOULD happen...and still they did nothing for so long.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 02:19 PM
Fox news is a shill for the administration...

:)

RT

giriasis
09-06-2005, 02:41 PM
I live in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and we experienced Katrina as a Category 1, and the full extent of a Category 1 storm. Over a million people in the South Florida area was without power and some only got their power back a couple of days ago. Areas in Miami were flooded from the rain bands. BUT what we experienced is hardly what the folks in the Gulf Coast experienced. When it pulled back out into the Gulf as a Tropical Storm, I watched it grow and grow until it became a Cat 1, then Cat 2, eventually a Cat 5. I knew it was going to be bad.

The blame goes everywhere beginning to the individuals citizens up to the President. Yes, many folks simply refused to leave. They had buses, free transporation, at bus depots downtown and only a few people got on so money should not have been an issue.

I live in Florida and beginning in June we are told to begin preparing for Hurricane season, yes, season. Kind of like preparing for winter and the winter blizzards. I grew up in Melbourne, Florida which is on the east coast of Florida. Beach side folks living on the barrier islands (essentially nature's hurricane buffer zones) are clearly instructed that if a Cat 4-5 comes their way and if they don't evacuate in time then they are to be left to their own devices, names of next of kin are taken because they risk a great risk of dying. Yes, we are told that WE WILL DIE, if we do not evacuate. Low lying areas, mobile homes and special needs persons are supposed to be the first areas where a mandatory evacuation is called.

Also, there were TWO disasters, first the hurricance than the flooding. New Orleans, technically, survived the hurricane. They knew that New Orleans would become a bowl of water. They knew this flood would happen. Those who died in Mississippi and other areas died from storm surge. They lived on the beach and were basically swept away.

Alex Mayfield of the Hurricane Storm Center in Miami warned of this flooding. He warned about it last year with Hurricane Ivan. No one seemed to listen to him. Actually, people in South Florida before Hurricane Andrew 13 years ago were pretty darned complacent. Most folks relied on the old Hurricane myth that the Gulf Stream carries the storms away and that you really will not get hit. Despite Hurrican Ivan, from last year, and Dennis from earlier this year people living on the Gulf Coast really thought that despite living not just in low lying areas, but below sea-level areas that they could "ride the storm out." How sad this maybe, they are warned in advanced, but they just get numb or complacent thinking it won't happen to them.

People are educated all along the southeast coast line so they know what they need to do in the event of a storm. They opened up the SuperDome right before the storm and only then 10,000 people decided to be sheltered there, and as I'm sure you saw there was around 50,000 who have been evacuated from there. Now, people are choosing to stay in swamped homes.

Regarding the levees and government funding, the Army Corp of Engineers have been asking since the 1950's and have been denied the necessary funding since the 1960s so the most recent government is not only to blame.

Now, after the storm, what do you do? We are told and our lesson after Hurricane Andrew was that for this size storm you prepare to be on your own for at the most of 5-6 days, because that might be how long help will take. Before that we were told to prepare for 3 days. With Hurricane Andrew some places went about 5 days without assistance and THERE WAS LOOTING THEN. Many folks now after a hurricane post the following: "you loot, we shoot."

Unfortunately, the folks in LA, MI got complacent like folks in South Florida did before Andrew. They didn't believe it could happen to them. Heck, they all probably thought the storm would go to Pensacola. (Pensacola seems to be a Hurricane magnet, historically. I had ancestors who lost their home in the early 1900s from a Hurricane in Pensacola, BUT they didn't have the technology that we do now.)

Now, why didn't these people leave, what are all the socio-economic reaons for this happening relates to one thing. We have severe poverty in this nation -- severe poverty. And you are shocked to see it, because folks here are really good at hiding it and really good at being in denial about it. Some were not able to afford their supplies. I can understand that. Loot for food, for water, for diapers, etc. But folks were looting shoes (Nikes), DVDs etc., alcohol, AND guns. Drug addicts come down off of their drugs were very dangerous. The local police were threatened every day and were in fire-fights at nights. The fact that local officials did not want to send people in to these areas because of safety reasons is also part of the reason "help took so long."

Why didn't the government show up? The U.S. Coast Guard WAS THERE as soon as the storm passed and were pulling people out of homes as fast as they could, but they didn't have enough help. The local police force was overrun because a third of their force could not be found -- some abandoned their posts others who knows. It did take the National Guard forever to come in and they problems for that was apparently bureaucratic because "state's rights" loving governers didn't ask for government assistance and didn't want to turn control over to the federal government. The media was there because of the storm chasing idiot meterologists who are trying to get their 15 minutes of fame where there before the storm, during it, and after -- to film its destruction.

So there are a lot of people to blame and reason for this happening is rather complex based on historical socio-economic problems in the U.S.

Finally, what you apparently are not seeing or hearing is how many other Americans are welcoming these people into their homes, and the amount of money, and supplies are being raised -- the silver lining to the storm.

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 02:53 PM
I am seeing and hearing what other folks are doing, and I think it is great. But I still feel the federal gov. in particular let the people down.

Question: What president stays on vacation on a ranch in Texas during a national disaster?

Answer: The same president who lectures to school children while NY is under attack...

Best,
Ron

giriasis
09-06-2005, 03:05 PM
You see Ron, I think it was the entire government all the way down to the people themselves who let themselves down. There is a certain responsibity one has living on the Southeast and Gulf Coast region to protect oneself from a storm such as this. Many individuals interviewed said they wished they had evacuated, and these were abled-bodied individuals.

But I do agree that there was a tremendous disconnect between what was actually happening and what the officials thought was actually happening, especially with the problems at the Superdome and the local governmental officials flat faced denial that things were bad there. Since they were in denial, why should the President be brought in as well as the National Guard? Yes, they lost their homes, too, but they were not at the Superdome or in downtown New Orleans either.

Also, I agree that the press conferences were excessive and so was the backpatting. I noticed that Bush visited folks in Mississippi and Alabama, but only went to the Airport in New Orleans. He didn't bother going to the Superdome. THAT would have impressed me.

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 03:08 PM
I say again...

All levels of government will have to answer for this debacle; they knew for years that this could happen, and did nothing. To wait for years and do nothing, and then to wait for 2 more days while people were dying is criminal.

funny, you say something bad about Bush, and people think you haven't said anything about anyone else...but there it is in print. Things that make you go Hhhhmm....

;) Ron

Don_Modesto
09-06-2005, 03:17 PM
The blame goes everywhere....

Nice post, Anne Marie.

(I'm with Ron 100%, though--I'd still like to see W booted.)

Hogan
09-06-2005, 03:19 PM
They expected to get aid by having an organized method of getting to people (boats, helicopter, etc.) exactly as it developed six days into the crisis.

Yes, and it takes time to get there. You expect them to have them in place at the hurrican site waiting ? And what happens when they are destroyed while waiting ? They have to send all they could AFTERwards.

People that have no car, no money, can't evacuate. They must be evacuated. That's part of the problem...no one took into account the poor. There would always be some hold outs (there are now in fact), but that is not the majority of people.

I saw an interview on TV, where a family said, "We lost everything, the house, the car...". Uh, excuse me... the CAR !? And why were they still there ? Because they didn't take the threat seriously, the mayor refused to enforce his 'mandatory' evacuation' and sent said order too late. There was no mechanism to evacuate the poor on such short notice. The coast guard evacuated over 10,000 people (and still going) and the mayor is saying there could be 10,000 dead. That's some number of hold outs.

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 03:21 PM
Some are holdouts, some are not...Hyperbole again. Tsk tsk...

Best,
Ron

Hogan
09-06-2005, 03:24 PM
I am seeing and hearing what other folks are doing, and I think it is great. But I still feel the federal gov. in particular let the people down.

Question: What president stays on vacation on a ranch in Texas during a national disaster?

Answer: The same president who lectures to school children while NY is under attack...

Best,
Ron

Oh lord, back on this. He was back the next day.

And re NY.. would you have preferred him to jump up and create panic in the children and parents ? Get all sweaty and red nosed like Gore would have ? I remember that there was widespread praise that he kept his cool and kept on doing what he did when it happened....

Hogan
09-06-2005, 03:26 PM
Some are holdouts, some are not...Hyperbole again. Tsk tsk...

Best,
Ron

Just think of all the resources and time wasted picking up these holdouts that still refuse to leave....

Let's blame Bush.

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 03:33 PM
That's why the workers now are telling them they have to leave...if not immediately, in the near future, because they can't keep coming back and checking on them. That is a waste of resources, on that we agree.

But the difference is, you think all the people are holdouts (at least that is the impression you give), I think *some* of the people are holdouts. It remains to be seen which viewpoint is correct.

And I don't blame Bush for the holdouts...but I sure do blame him for a lot of other things! ;) I also have to blame myself and my fellow americans though...we had an election, and there he sits...

Best,
Ron (still shaking my head over that one)

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 03:35 PM
And re NY.. would you have preferred him to jump up and create panic in the children and parents ?

Is that the only way you know how to exit a sit down with children?I can certainly think of plenty of ways to politely and camly excuse myself without creating a panic. I do it in meetings all the time when the network goes down... ;)

Ron (hyperbole again)

giriasis
09-06-2005, 03:44 PM
Also, the thing is Ron, I'm hardly are Bush supporter, it's just that the total context of your posts seem to emphasize the federal governements responsibility over state/local government and individual responsibility. Especially when you state: I am seeing and hearing what other folks are doing, and I think it is great. But I still feel the federal gov. in particular let the people down.

When it comes to hurricanes down here in South Florida, I do not expect the President to come down here do something other than have photo opps. It's not the President's responsibility to come down here, vocalize to people to evacuate, and to make the preparations necessary for the feds to enter the state after the storm. If the LA state and locals official did that and then the feds responded in an untimely fashion then I would completely agree.

I expect to hear, first from the Broward County mayor, then local EOC office, then the State Governor. Those are the people on the front lines, and these are the people who can declare a "state of emergency" once a state of emergency is declared then the federal government can step in. At least that is how it works in Florida. You're way up in Pennsylvania, when was the last time you had to deal with a hurricane? Believe me there are delays for help, and actually a two day delay isn't all that bad.

Every year I make preparations to be on my own for 3-5 days without government assistance. Unfortunately, the reason the folks in New Orleans were not able to get the preparations was due to their poverty, but they were able to get out in advanced. Maybe the New Orleans locals should have known this and made preparations for these people by making sure that places like the Superdome were stocked with water, ice and MREs in advanced. Who knows. Lets not put the blame mostly on the feds, this your point taken from the quote above.

The real "crime" is the federal government not providing the funds to repair the levees for decades. I believe you said that to, if so we agree here. That could have prevented a lot of the deaths we see, or anticipate, in New Orleans.

giriasis
09-06-2005, 03:50 PM
Nice post, Anne Marie.

(I'm with Ron 100%, though--I'd still like to see W booted.)


I'd like to see W booted, too, but I don't think most of the responsibility lies on him, in this case. You can boot him for other reasons. ;)

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 03:50 PM
In particular is not mostly.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 03:54 PM
http://www.fema.gov/news/event.fema?id=390

Don't make assumptions...it's not prudent.

:)

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2005, 03:58 PM
I'll see what I can dig up on transportation for poor people to the super dome or out of the area. I sure hope some sort of transport was available. I don't think it will make this disaster any easier to live with though. More later, time to go...

Best,
Ron

giriasis
09-06-2005, 04:02 PM
Flyod was one particular ;) case that Pennsylvania felt the effect of a Hurricane, but didn't it downgrade to a tropical storm to that point?

Hogan
09-06-2005, 04:11 PM
Is that the only way you know how to exit a sit down with children?I can certainly think of plenty of ways to politely and camly excuse myself without creating a panic. I do it in meetings all the time when the network goes down... ;)

Ron (hyperbole again)

Ummm, that's exactly what he did. He let the child finish reading, and when he got up, he spoke of the attack and left.

Hogan
09-06-2005, 04:13 PM
http://www.fema.gov/news/event.fema?id=390

Don't make assumptions...it's not prudent.

:)

Best,
Ron

And what is this supposed to provide ?

giriasis
09-06-2005, 04:16 PM
Ron, I remember before the storm, newscasters (CNN, MSNBC) stating that there were buses waiting to take people to evacuation centers.

giriasis
09-06-2005, 04:22 PM
And what is this supposed to provide ?


It's apparently getting to be a p....ing contest between me and Ron that he doesn't understand the effects of a Hurricane and doesn't necessarily understand the preparations a state and people within that state must take to prepare for a storm. ...oh and that individuals are responsible for themselves to prepare for such a storm...

My guess that the deaths that occured in PA where due to the flooding from rising waters and people driving into the water. A storm that he experienced with tropical storm forced winds in Pennsylvania is supposedly the same as being on a coastal region getting ready for a Cat 5 storm. Dealing the the effects of a "Hurricane" downgraded to a tropical storm is a lot different than living in a state where you deal with Hurricanes on a yearly basis. It's kind of like comparing the "snow" we get in Florida and the requisite closing of roads. To a northerner its ridiculous that one inch of snow could shut Orlando, Florida down, it's not to us when we are not prepared for such a storm. However, a one inch snow storm, while causing havoc in a Central Florida city, does not compare to the blizzards and noreasters folks up north experience.

Hogan
09-07-2005, 08:41 AM
"Mayor Ray Nagin (search) says that with National Guard troops in place in New Orleans, he's sending some overworked police officers and firefighters on Las Vegas vacations. Nagin says 1500 first responders will get $200 in cash for the trip, along with free hotels, restaurants, and Vegas shows.

The mayor also blasted critics who suggested granting such vacations in a time of crisis constitutes a dereliction of duty, and a call to party, saying, "New Orleans is a party city. Get over it." That philosophy was echoed by French quarter residents already planning next year's Mardi Gras (search) celebrations, one of whom says, “We'll always have something to parade for."


"...Last night we told you about an editorial in the New Orleans Times-Picayune blaming President Bush (search) and the federal government for failing to adequately respond to the Katrina disaster. But earlier this summer, the paper reported that Mayor Nagin and other city officials were warning "the poorest of New Orleans' poor" that if a hurricane hits, "you're on your own."

City administrators distributed hundreds of DVDs in vulnerable, low-income neighborhoods, telling residents that while some city and school buses would be deployed to move those without transportation, "you're responsible for your safety." This despite the fact that New Orleans' emergency hurricane plan places the responsibility for evacuation on the mayor and city's transit authority."

And the governor didn't send the order to use the buses until AFTER the hurrican hit and left. Wonder what happened. Ohhhh, the flooding. Anyone see that pic of all the school buses lined up in water ? The ones that were supposed to be used ?

The Governor and Mayor should be impeached....

Ron Tisdale
09-07-2005, 09:02 AM
And they may well be.

Anne Marie, my family is from Orlando and Jacksonville...we are well aware of hurricanes, believe me. It isn't a pissing contest...you made a false assumption that's all.

Best,
Ron

Steven
09-07-2005, 09:49 AM
I'll see what I can dig up on transportation for poor people to the super dome or out of the area. I sure hope some sort of transport was available. I don't think it will make this disaster any easier to live with though. More later, time to go...

Best,
Ron

CNN, questioned the Mayor of N.O yesterday as to why 200 hundred school buses, that could have evacuated some 10K people, sat in their parking lot which is now under water.

He has "No Comment". According to the news story, the City of N.O. disaster response called for the use of some 400 buses to be used, yet 200 of them sat.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

mj
09-07-2005, 09:59 AM
It's all very well having buses to take people...but where do you take them?

Where will these tens of thousands of displaced people stay now they have no homes?

Is it being addressed?

Steven
09-07-2005, 10:02 AM
I wonder, why did it take until Thursday for the Govenor to order the use of these buses?

http://www.press-herald.com/news/2005/Sept/0906.php
http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/090205/new_buses001.shtml

Then there are those who flat our refused transportation:
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050906/NEWS01/509060322/1001/RSS

Now I'm not pointing fingers, however this to me is yet another example of how the WHOLE system broke down, from the residents to the federal government and everything in between.

Steven
09-07-2005, 10:05 AM
It's all very well having buses to take people...but where do you take them?

Where will these tens of thousands of displaced people stay now they have no homes?

Is it being addressed?

Livingston, Scotland, or anyplace else away from where they are. Like Houston or other parts of the states. Many places to choose from. How about opening your home to some of them. That would answer your question about where they go now.

.. and yes, I am opening my home, so don't even go there. If fact today, I'm on my way to the school district to talk about getting these kids enrolled. What you doing to help if I may ask?

mj
09-07-2005, 10:22 AM
Don't be cheeky mate it's not my country. My hand was first into my pocket for the tsunami 9 months ago, but I don't actually feel any duty in this case, seeing as how (however horrible it is for me to say it) you are the richest, toughest country in the world with more resources, troops, emergency workers, land, food, houses, money, transport and everything else.

In fact while we are on the subject...Livingston, the rest of Scotland and the UK and pretty much all of Europe think that if it had been well off white people this wouldn't even be an issue. If that seems offensive then I'm sorry.

However the UK was one of the first countries to offer help, not that we got so much as a thank you.

That is not to detract in any way from the good work being done. But I think it's fair to say that you've not covered yourself in glory so far. No, indeed.

Steven
09-07-2005, 10:29 AM
Gee Mark, talk about being "cheeky". I just simply answered your question. Next time don't ask a quesiton if you don't want an answer. Take a breath .. mate.

Hogan
09-07-2005, 10:41 AM
.... My hand was first into my pocket for the tsunami 9 months ago, but I don't actually feel any duty in this case, seeing as how (however horrible it is for me to say it) you are the richest, toughest country in the world with more resources, troops, emergency workers, land, food, houses, money, transport and everything else.....

It's about helping people, whether their country has money or not. Every little bit helps.

mj
09-07-2005, 10:46 AM
Gee Mark, talk about being "cheeky". I just simply answered your question. Next time don't ask a quesiton if you don't want an answer. Take a breath .. mate.
If I ask what's going to happen to 10s of thousands of permanently displaced people and you say that you are going to open your house, I don't think that's a realistic answer, sorry.

What realistic plans do you know of that are either in place or up and running?

Steven
09-07-2005, 11:04 AM
Many things! Just hop on a plane, come on over and you can see for yourself first hand.

As for opening my home, thousands of people across the states are opening their homes. Unfortunately, this is not media worthy news. They're just interested in all the death and destruction and speculation as to whom to blame. That sells papers.

I'm doing what I can to help. How about you?

Taliesin
09-07-2005, 11:15 AM
Interestingly GWB is going to hold an inquiry to show he has no responsibility for anything bad that happens to Americans - Terrorist attack predicted - don't blame me couldn't have known it would happen - devastation after a Hurricane don't blame me - we could have predicted the levees were not adequate, troops shot after invading a foreign country - couldn't possibly predict that.

I also wait with interest his next comments about the effects of Global Warming

mj
09-07-2005, 11:25 AM
Many things! Just hop on a plane, come on over and you can see for yourself first hand.

As for opening my home, thousands of people across the states are opening their homes. Unfortunately, this is not media worthy news. They're just interested in all the death and destruction and speculation as to whom to blame. That sells papers.

I'm doing what I can to help. How about you?
Steven...I don't know if we are talking aobut different things here...you seem to be talking about charity.

I am talking about long term plans for people with no jobs, no collateral, no clothes, no schools, no money, no health insurance and all the rest of the stuff the poor b4st4rds should have at the very least.

Frankly whilst I can respect your efforts you have to agree that as a long term solution for so many people it is so laughable it is not worth listening to. That is not to say that I am disrespecting your efforts, but you must see what I mean.

Steven
09-07-2005, 11:48 AM
Actually, you are not only disrespecting me, you are disrepecting the efforts of everyone on the ground, those abroad doing what they can and so forth, by your lack of compassion and understanding. But you don't see that because you can't see past the end of your nose. All you want to do is argue points, make uneducated comments and point fingers and do nothing to help the cause. All the way from Scotland no less.

Oh, and just so you know and please do try to understand. I'll use the best English I can to help you. The corporation I work for is currently working at finding homes for all its displaced employees and families. Hundreds of them. One effort are for those who can, to open their homes for not days or weeks, but months if needed to ensure these folks and their families have what they need to get back to work, kids back to school, seek medical treatments, etc. Mine is just one corporation that is reaching out beyond simple donations to a charity.

This is one example of what is being done to help. So I'll ask again, what are YOU doing to help? Oh yeah, I forgot, NOTHING. Because you feel no obiligation because you helped already with the tsunami relief. Well that's something I guess.

The last words are yours. Have a great day.

Ron Tisdale
09-07-2005, 11:50 AM
Nope, I don't see what you mean.

The US is there with every disaster helping out.

Remember those planes that crashed not so long ago? Wasn't that in scotland? Remember those school shootings? Americans helped out. Remember WWII? Gee, how quickly they forget.

Steven is doing more opening his home, gettnig kids back to some sort of normalcy in school where they get an education, than it seems you'll do in a life time. It may not be the end all an be all solution long term...but these folks need houses NOW. Steven and thousands of others are providing that.

What is europe providing? the europe we propped up when the nazis wanted it????

Cough,
Ron

Steven
09-07-2005, 12:08 PM
http://www.kcra.com/news/4940548/detail.html
http://www.kcra.com/news/4941756/detail.html
http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/special_reports/katrina/bee/story/13529389p-14370192c.html
http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/special_reports/katrina/bee/story/13529390p-14370193c.html

I wonder what Livingston, Scotland is doing to help?

mj
09-07-2005, 12:12 PM
Nope, I don't see what you mean.

The US is there with every disaster helping out.

Remember those planes that crashed not so long ago? Wasn't that in scotland? Remember those school shootings? Americans helped out. Remember WWII? Gee, how quickly they forget.

Steven is doing more opening his home, gettnig kids back to some sort of normalcy in school where they get an education, than it seems you'll do in a life time. It may not be the end all an be all solution long term...but these folks need houses NOW. Steven and thousands of others are providing that.

What is europe providing? the europe we propped up when the nazis wanted it????

Cough,
Ron

cough yourself mate - didn't expect you lot to turn so nasty but while you're on the subject...we fought the nazis from 1939 to 1942 on our own so don't tell me about your good deeds, Glasgow and Edinburgh were blitzed and firebombed you were not...and if you recall it was us who took all the Jewish and European refugees, you took none

oh...and we don't forget that you didn't lift a finger to help your 'mates' until you were attacked by the Japanese...how quickly we forget indeed

as to why you are even talking about WW2 is beyond me, grasping at argumentative straws possibly

and as to who your best friend in the world is...gee that would be the UK, helping out in Iraq maybe? never mind just stab us in the back when you can't cope...as usual :)

and as to what I've done in my lifetime, I've nothing to be ashamed of and I'll hold up my actions against anyone's...feel free to start a 'contest' on who has done most, if that's your bent

And like I said...Britain was one of the first countries to offer help (on the fist day of the hurricane iirc) but your leader said no thanks.

Anyway...I'll leave you all just now and I'll come back in a week to see how it's going.

Hogan
09-07-2005, 12:27 PM
Interestingly GWB is going to hold an inquiry to show he has no responsibility for anything bad that happens to Americans - Terrorist attack predicted - don't blame me couldn't have known it would happen - devastation after a Hurricane don't blame me - we could have predicted the levees were not adequate, troops shot after invading a foreign country - couldn't possibly predict that.

I also wait with interest his next comments about the effects of Global Warming


Don't forget Gee Dubya is also responsible for people not picking up after their dogs.

Ron Tisdale
09-07-2005, 12:31 PM
You got nasty with Steven, so now you got both of us on your butt. Deal with it.

Germany would rule the whole of europe now if the US didn't get involved. Face up to the sad fact.

This isn't a contest on who's done what...but when you belittle someone opening up their home to those who've lost theirs...expect to get some flak.

As far as Iraq is concerned...Blair and Bush together should pay for that. We didn't belong there to begin with, so helping there certainly doesn't get any credit in my eyes.

Britain offered help, and Bush should have taken it, and thanked them for it. But by your own words:

I don't actually feel any duty in this case, seeing as how (however horrible it is for me to say it) you are the richest, toughest country in the world with more resources, troops, emergency workers, land, food, houses, money, transport and everything else.

So YOU don't get any slack for that one.

RT

Hogan
09-07-2005, 12:31 PM
...oh...and we don't forget that you didn't lift a finger to help your 'mates' until you were attacked by the Japanese...how quickly we forget indeed
You must've forgotten about Lend Lease. You know, that program that allowed your country (Great Britain) to survive until we came in and finished the job ?

:p

..And like I said...Britain was one of the first countries to offer help (on the fist day of the hurricane iirc) but your leader said no thanks.
Aid from Britain HAS arrived in the US. That means we accepted it

Lorien Lowe
09-07-2005, 01:53 PM
Heya-
sorry to interrupt the bickering, but does anyone know anything new about how New Orleans' aikido people are doing? What new help might be needed?

-LK

Chuck Clark
09-07-2005, 02:55 PM
A friend just sent me this. I find it interesting.

From the Washington Post...

Offers of Aid Immediate, but U.S. Approval Delayed for Days


By Elizabeth Williamson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 7, 2005; A01



Offers of foreign aid worth tens of millions of dollars -- including a Swedish water purification system, a German cellular telephone network and two Canadian rescue ships -- have been delayed for days awaiting review by backlogged federal agencies, according to European diplomats and information collected by the State Department.

Since Hurricane Katrina, more than 90 countries and international organizations offered to assist in recovery efforts for the flood-stricken region, but nearly all endeavors remained mired yesterday in bureaucratic entanglements, in most cases, at the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

In Germany, a massive telecommunication system and two technicians await the green light to fly to Louisiana, after its donors spent four days searching for someone willing to accept the gift.

"FEMA? That was a lost case," said Mirit Hemy, an executive with the Netherlands-based New Skies Satellite who made the phone calls. "We got zero help, and we lost one week trying to get hold of them."

In Sweden, a transport plane loaded with a water purification system and a cellular network has been ready to take off for four days, while Swedish officials wait for flight clearance. Nearly a week after they were offered, four Canadian rescue vessels and two helicopters have been accepted but probably won't arrive from Halifax, Nova Scotia, until Saturday. The Canadians' offer of search-and-rescue divers has so far gone begging.

Matching offers of aid -- from Panamanian bananas to British engineers -- with needs in the devastated region is a laborious process in a disaster whose scope is unheard of in recent U.S. history, especially for a country more accustomed to giving than receiving aid.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said yesterday that to his knowledge, all offers of foreign aid have been accepted and some have arrived, such as Air Canada's flights to relocate displaced people. But many others must be vetted by emergency relief specialists. "I think the experts will take a look at exactly what is needed now," he said.

FEMA spokeswoman Natalie Rule said the foreign complaints echo those from governors and officials "across the nation."

"There has been that common thought that because [offers of aid] are not tapped immediately, they're not prudently used," Rule said. "We are pulling everything into a centralized database. We are trying not to suck everything in all at once, whether we need it or not."

European diplomats said publicly that they understand the difficulty of coordinating such a massive recovery effort. In an open letter released yesterday, though, Ambassador John Bruton, head of the Delegation of the European Commission to the United States, wrote:

"Perhaps one of those lessons will be that rugged individualism is not always enough in such a crisis, particularly if an individual does not have the material and psychological means to escape the fury of a hurricane in time."

Soon after the flooding, the government of Sweden offered a C-130 Hercules transport plane, loaded with water purification equipment, and a cellular network donated by Ericsson.

"As far as I know, it's still on the ground," said Claes Thorson, press counselor at the Swedish Embassy in Washington. He said that along with 20 other European Union nations that have pledged aid, "We are ready to send our things. We know they are needed, but what seems to be a problem is getting all these offers into the country."

So far, Thorson said, the State Department has denied Sweden's request for flight clearance. "We don't know exactly why, but we have a suspicion that the system is clogged on the receiving end," he said. "But we keep a request alive all the time, so we are not forgotten."

German telecommunications company KB Impuls contacted another company, Unisat, based in Rhode Island, with the idea of contributing an integrated satellite and cellular telephone system.

In a region with its communications systems in tatters, the $3 million system could handle 5,000 calls at once, routing them, if necessary, through Germany.

KB Impuls would contribute the equipment and two engineers, supplied with their own food, water and generator fuel, to set it up. Unisat contacted another firm, New Skies Satellite, with offices in Washington, which agreed to contribute satellite capacity.

New Skies even arranged transport, securing a C-130 cargo plane from the Israeli air force, to pick up the equipment and technicians from Germany and bring them to Louisiana. "With one call, I got an airplane," Hemy said. And then, over four days, she and the owner of Unisat, Uri Bar-Zemer, called contacts at FEMA, the American Red Cross, the State Department, even members of Congress, trying to find someone to accept the gift.

Finally the State Department told them that to receive flight clearance, the gift must have a specific recipient. "I was ringing, ringing, ringing -- and nothing," Hemy said. Finally, yesterday, she got a call from the U.S. Air Force's Joint Task Force Katrina Communication Operations division, thanking the companies for the gift and inquiring about the system's technical specifications.

As of late yesterday, the companies were waiting for a written order from the Northern Command to begin the mission. "I don't have a problem confirming that," Bar-Zemer said of the story. But he expressed concerns that disclosing the difficulties in donating could jeopardize the company's chances of actually delivering the aid.

Staff writers Robin Wright and Nelson Hernandez contributed to this report.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

aikigirl10
09-07-2005, 03:18 PM
Arguing about who is to blame wont help or solve anything. If you want to help people and you want things to get better , then stop blaming bush, and the mayor, and the national guard , and donate money, or get ur butt down there and take them food yourselves if u think its so easy.

Thats all i will be posting/reading on this thread. If you want to comment u can pm.

-Paige

Chuck Clark
09-07-2005, 04:13 PM
Personally, my butt is in gear and doing positive things. We have people in the area now. At the same time, if we don't question, understand history, and hold our politicians and bureaucrats accountable, they tend to represent more of their own interests than the people's interests.

Steven
09-07-2005, 04:40 PM
At the same time, if we don't question, understand history, and hold our politicians and bureaucrats accountable, they tend to represent more of their own interests than the people's interests.

Right ... but we should do so with the FACTS and not speculation and emotion towards any one individual. All that does is create an unHarmonious atmosphere which is kinda counter to Aikido.

Steven
09-07-2005, 04:41 PM
P.S. Thanks for the support and efforts Chuck. Glad to see more of the Aikido community coming together in the time of need.

giriasis
09-07-2005, 04:49 PM
Heya-
sorry to interrupt the bickering, but does anyone know anything new about how New Orleans' aikido people are doing? What new help might be needed?

-LK

See this thread Aikido of New Orleans (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8818)

I started this thread as soon as my sensei couldn't get in touch. As he states, that the Aikido folks are okay and their dojo should be okay as well.

Neil Mick
09-07-2005, 10:27 PM
Interesting. I come from a very different perspective to the New Orleans tragedy.

For the last week or so, I have been in the desert playa, totally cut off from all media. When I went in, gas was 2.74, and the news was putting out warnings about Katrina. It was the usual stuff, nothing major, I thought. The National Guard, FEMA (which, BTW, has had a very dark history, (http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon6.html) since its inception), or someone would take care of it, I thought.

I come out of the desert, and gas is now 3.05, and I hear about tens of thousands dead, it is estimated (unofficially). Talk about media-shock: I'm still dazed.

I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives (even the griping). I think I'll withhold comment for now...still processing.

Taliesin
09-08-2005, 03:58 AM
Mark Johnson said

"I don't actually feel any duty in this case, seeing as how (however horrible it is for me to say it) you are the richest, toughest country in the world with more resources, troops, emergency workers, land, food, houses, money, transport and everything else.

In fact while we are on the subject...Livingston, the rest of Scotland and the UK and pretty much all of Europe think that if it had been well off white people this wouldn't even be an issue. If that seems offensive then I'm sorry.

However the UK was one of the first countries to offer help, not that we got so much as a thank you.

That is not to detract in any way from the good work being done. But I think it's fair to say that you've not covered yourself in glory so far. No, indeed. "


Ron Tisdale decided it would be appropriate to brandish his ignorance of history in response

"Germany would rule the whole of Europe now if the US didn't get involved" - given he is addressing this to a Scot and the UK won the Battle of Britain without American help (ships don't count in an air battle Ron) it hard to see what point he is trying to make.

As far a Marks comments are concerned - the point is the over in the UK there is a huge concern that the country that has all the resources necessary to provide provision for it's own people has failed to do so because they have instead been spend on invading oil fields in Iraq and Tax Cuts for the rich and that providing help now simply encourages more of the same from your President. It's the difference between helping your President and helping those who need it.

I would also point out that there would be far more support world wide, (including I am sure from Mark) if we could believe that the support we sent would be spent on providing support to the victims and not your President.

PS

John

"The Buck stops where?'

Hogan
09-08-2005, 08:15 AM
http://www.tonguetied.us/


"So That Explains It!

The Associated Press says hundreds of firefighters from across the country who volunteered to help out in New Orleans were delayed in Atlanta for days of sensitivity indoctrination by federal authorities.

The firefighters were told by FEMA that it would take two days to train them before they could carry out their community service and outreach duties. Part of that training included classes on sexual harassment and lessons on how to deal with ethnic groups."

My question is, is it more racist to think different ethnic groups need to be dealth with differently, or are we all humans that react the same in times of need ?

Ron Tisdale
09-08-2005, 08:42 AM
History (and my lack of understanding of it) aside, my appologies to the board for losing my cool. And to Mark.

David, if you read my posts you understand that I support the president not one bit in his attack on Iraq. Support given to the survivors of Katrina goes to them. All you have to do to ensure that is to donate said support to the Red Cross.

John, the fact of the matter is (sad or otherwise) different cultures do react differently to the same stimuli. Whether the time to train people on that when facing a crisis of these proportions is another question....my preference would be to get the people willing to help to work.

At the same time...cnn reported that there are already multiple scams afoot trying to bilk people out of their money, money intended to help people in need. Along a similar line, there is already a group out there claiming to only support white victims of katrina. Racist? yeah, that's out there too. I don't support that group any more than I'll support someone like Sharpton when he shows up.

Best to all,
Ron

Taliesin
09-08-2005, 09:57 AM
Ron

Thanks for the apology - But I did feel it only fair to put forward how I understood Mark's comments. (given the attack he was under). It is widely held concern about GWB as I'm sure you can understand.

However there have been other concerns such as the apparent speed of the social breakdown - particularly when related to the Tsunami - and whether it reflects a more established lack of social cohesion throughout the USA.

mj
09-09-2005, 07:26 AM
I am deeply sorry if I have caused any offence because I can assure you that none was intended.

Such a disaster is lessened by distance, and I am luckier than you in this case. However that does not mean that my intentions in asking were any less than serious, I was not trolling or looking for controversy.

However it seems that my hesitation in approaching my real worry was misplaced, as I am sure that I would have been better with a more direct approach.

If either Steven or Ron think that I feel disrespect towards them then I certainly do not. But if you are of such a disposition that my previous question caused anger then read no further. And I mean that, if you were upset before then don't read this.

And this is it, over and done with....

over 'here' we have this view that a lot of those states around there are a bit racist and don't like coloured people...there are 'some' news reports now and then saying stuff that makes uncomfortable listening....and I mean even in daily conversation people are saying 'look at all the troops/police/guns/military helicopters...where are the ambulances?'....why did they keep talking about looters?...I mean 'they went in to shoot looters' was the general gist we were getting over 'here' and there wasn't any ambulances or doctors or medics :(

And there are still no ambulances, unless the footage we are getting is highly selective.

So I've said it. The long term effects I am talking about are demographic, something we in Scotland know all too well because we've grown up with bitter, very bitter, religious divides. And if such a thing happened here we would be saying stuff like 'jesus if you put these people in that area then you're gonna have a civil war in less than 2 years.

Now if my question can be taken in good grace then please do because that was the way I meant it.

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2005, 07:51 AM
No problems Mark. A few clarifications on things you would have no way of knowing...

There aren't any 'colored' people here...there are african-americans, there are blacks, some might still use the term negro...but there aren't any 'coloreds' any more. No offense taken, as I said you'd probably have no way of knowing.

There is still racism here. And probably will be for some time yet, and not just whites show the symptoms you'd expect. Some would call racism in the black community 'reverse racism', or other such 'politically correct' terms. Personally, I don't hold with that, but that's just me.

More important in this discussion (in my opinion) are the divides between wealthy, middle class, and poor. Racism plays a part in that for sure...but I'd be kidding myself if I thought there was a whole lot in common between myself and the vast majority of the black people you saw in the news reports. Sure, our respective ancestors knew many of the same situations, but I was raised upper middle class in the north, with both parents having been college educated. That's a lot different from how my father was raised...his family were tenent farmers in the area surrounding Jacksonville, where they still had signs telling people like me to keep out after dark.

A lot of the medical services were provided after getting people out...there was no good way to use ambulances in those water logged streets, so the military went in and got people out how they could. I personally have no problem with them going in loaded for bear...it was a chaotic time, there were a few incidents of shootings, and by making a strong showing, I'll bet much of that was immediately curtailed.

I do have a problem with how the media portrays black people as looters when they go in for food the same as whites did...but the whites don't get called looters. On the other hand, you did have some idiots grabbing electronic devices and other things they obviously didn't need. Sad, but it did happen.

If you think what you saw made you uncomfortable...you can imagine how it made me feel. There is a wider gap in some of the southern states still between black and white than you would notice elsewhere...and that is part of what you saw in those reports.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2005, 07:55 AM
However there have been other concerns such as the apparent speed of the social breakdown - particularly when related to the Tsunami - and whether it reflects a more established lack of social cohesion throughout the USA.

No more than in some parts of Scotland or Ireland...in the not so distant past...and maybe even today. Every country has some of the same symptoms...even where the tsunami hit. Remember the problems with rebel groups not letting in aid works for a time?

Best,
Ron

Steven
09-09-2005, 08:19 AM
Mark,

Yes, the news you are seeing is selective. You're seeing what the news agency wants you to see. Let's use common sense for a moment if we can. If the city is under water, some 15 feet or more, how exactly are ambulances going to help? This has been one of the main challenges. What part of "The city is under water" is so hard to understand? Did you not see the video of all the folks being airlifted and moved by boats from their homes and from tops of cars etc? What exactly do you think happened to these people after they were rescued? Is it possible they just might have been taken to an area not under water where ambulances and other such means of transportation, depending on their needs, were available? Come on Mark, use your own brain for a minute.

As for being racist, racism is all over the world. I know I don't have to remind you of the "ethnic cleansing" at the hands of some European leaders, and that was white man against white man.
The fact that folks over there would think the way they do about those who are white in such a generalized way, makes them a racist in my book. Fact remains that mother nature is not racist and anyone who chose to stay or for whatever reason could not get out were affected. I've seen plenty of POOR WHITE people suffering side by side with their black neighbors. Unfortunately, the media is putting their own spin on things. That does not make me or anyone else a racist. That's nothing more than the media doing what it does to sell a news paper and to draw hits to their websites.

The National Guard was sent in to restore order, not to just go in and shoot people as you would elude to. Yes, some people have been shot, but they are those who have opened fired on the fire department, police, relief workers, etc. A shameful display of people taking advantage of a situation for whatever their reason and doing so, because they could. You need to stop listening to your selective news agencies and use your own common sense. I'd hate to think the folks "over there" are that ignorant. No offense intended to you and I truly mean that.

Bottom-line is all levels of our government failed and those who were able to leave and stayed, brought this upon themselves. Nothing we can do now to undo the damage. All we can do now is to help those in need and to do everything in our power at all levels to ensure nothing like this ever happens again. We certainly cannot control nature, but we can control how we respond to the after math.

Steven
09-09-2005, 08:33 AM
I do have a problem with how the media portrays black people as looters when they go in for food the same as whites did...but the whites don't get called looters.

This was/is shameful and I share Ron's concerns with this. I know several folks, including myself, who have written to several media outlets condeming their reports in this regard.

Taliesin
09-09-2005, 10:29 AM
Ron

Fair comment that such a breakdown would be just as likely to occur in the UK under the same circumstances - which is simply an indictment of us rather than anything else.

However your comments regarding the Tsunami

"even where the tsunami hit. Remember the problems with rebel groups not letting in aid works for a time?"

Here I take it you are referring to Sri Lanka. This is not a fair parallel - again your history is letting you down. Basic background summary - for approximately 17/18 years there was a civil war going on in Sri Lanka - between the established government (mainly Sinhalese) and the Tamils - fighting for a separate homeland due to systematic anti-Tamil discrimination. There has been a cease fire for almost 3 years now - however there have still been problems and both sides have been accused of undermining the other in various devious ways. That is the reason why the LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam) delayed aid workers access to 'their areas'.

It is not clear quite why you believe this is a fair parallel to what appears to be an almost immediate breakdown in law and order (although there is the even worse possibility - that it simply revealed the current situation).

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2005, 10:45 AM
I know the history fairly well, actually, and even with your specific clarifications, I believe the point stands. Someone else actually mentioned the tsunami...so I simply mentioned the problems there. I don't particularly feel that it is unusual that there is a breakdown in society ANYWHERE a catastrophy of this magnitude occurs. I can't think of a single place anywhere that something like this has happened where there hasn't been looting. Since you are the history expert...please, tell us where this rule of law and order can be seen to be the standard during catastrophies of this severity. Just like in Sri Lanka, prevailing tensions at the time of a catastropy exacerbated the rescue and recovery.

I'll also mention this. Comments such as "again your history is letting you down." are likely to return the thread to the annimosity we saw earlier. I'd suggest not letting that happen again.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2005, 12:24 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/09/katrina.brown.reut/index.html

If I lied on my resume and got caught, I'd be fired.

Ron (sheesh)

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2005, 02:06 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/

Other FEMA officials
The Washington Post reported on Friday that five of eight top FEMA officials had come to their jobs with virtually no experience in handling disasters. The agency's top three leaders, including Brown, had ties to Bush's 2000 presidential campaign or the White House advance operation.

How many people feel that appointing people based on politcal contributions, rather than their actual qualifications, is an appropriate way for the president to fill positions? What does this say about the person(s) doing the appointments?

Best,
Ron

Hogan
09-09-2005, 02:14 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/



How many people feel that appointing people based on politcal contributions, rather than their actual qualifications, is an appropriate way for the president to fill positions? What does this say about the person(s) doing the appointments?

Best,
Ron

Stupid practice, but it has been so since day one; every prez has done so, every mayor has done so, every governor has done so.... And it'll never change.

Adam Alexander
09-09-2005, 02:34 PM
How many people feel that appointing people based on politcal contributions, rather than their actual qualifications, is an appropriate way for the president to fill positions? What does this say about the person(s) doing the appointments?


I think it's sad. However, I think it's consistent with the way the President is elected...as long as the lucky candidate contributes sufficiently to a marketing campaign and gratifies the ego of the electorate, he's elected. So, why should we expect the Pres. to treat his subordinates with any greater criteria than the people treat their subordinate?

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2005, 02:46 PM
Good point!

RT

Adam Alexander
09-09-2005, 03:28 PM
There aren't any 'colored' people here...there are african-americans, there are blacks, some might still use the term negro...but there aren't any 'coloreds' any more.

NAACP?


I think the point the UK poster was making was more towards "what is the US doing to fix the real problem?"

A few thousand people being killed or uprooted is absolutely miniscule when you consider that the reasons for the occurrence are characteristics present throughout the black and poor communities: Lack of self-reliance and sense of indebtedness--atleast that's been my experience.

Christ, call New Orleans a lost battle and rather than run head-first into the same wall, consider why the battle was lost and adjust the strategy.

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2005, 04:07 PM
NAACP was named in a time when that term was acceptable. Here's a bet...

Walk into any black neighborhood in detroit, and call someone colored...see if you walk out again. I can tell you right now not to try that in north philly.

I think education is the best way long term. Better educated means more opportunity. Worked for my parents, worked for me, will probably always work. My thoughts anyway.

Best,
Ron

Neil Mick
09-09-2005, 06:32 PM
WARNING! FEMA has promoted a list of charities on its website that are accepting donations for Katrina. One of main charities is Operation Blessing, a charity run by that international humanitarian Pat Robertson. His wife is a VP.

Read more about this "charity," here: (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/09/1411237)

Interestingly enough, when I checked their latest 990 for the fiscal year ending of March of 2004, they give hundreds of grants for a few thousand dollars to churches all around the United States, but the single largest recipient of assistance from Second Blessing is Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network. It received $885,000 in grants from the charity. For what purposes, I'm not quite clear.

But the other part of it is also that Second Blessing has had a less than stellar record. Back in the mid-1990s during the Rwandan genocide, Robertson appealed for assistance for Operation Second Blessing on his 700 Club for money to fly relief supplies to the Rwandan refugees in Zaire. What he -- it turns out that an investigation later by the Virginia Attorney General's office revealed that the planes that were bought by the charity were actually ferrying mining equipment for a diamond mining operation, the African Development Corporation, and low-and-behold, who is the principal shareholder of this private corporation? None other than Pat Robertson himself. So, he eventually had to reimburse his own charity $400,000 for the fact that these planes were being used, not for charitable work, but for his own enrichment. Although that might itself -- ended up collapsing.

Operation Blessing website (http://www.ob.org/)

Adam Alexander
09-10-2005, 01:38 PM
NAACP was named in a time when that term was acceptable. Here's a bet...

Walk into any black neighborhood in detroit, and call someone colored...see if you walk out again. I can tell you right now not to try that in north philly.

I think education is the best way long term. Better educated means more opportunity. Worked for my parents, worked for me, will probably always work. My thoughts anyway.

Best,
Ron

LOL. I think "not walking out," atleast as it applies to Detroit, is a little dramatic (most people would laugh at you for saying it because it's so out of touch--the same way most whites would laugh their a**es off at being called a cracker. LOL). In either case, I was messing with you.

Although, what you say highlights the problem with New Orleans: Worrying about relatively insignificant things (relative to making money and caring for your family) rather than important stuff...like who you elect to your local political posts.


I agree that education is part of the solution. However, I think the word is typically misapplied. When "public education" was initially being touted, logic and rhetoric was a primary subject. These days, it's doubtful to find a teacher who's proficient in either subject (atleast that's been the case with my teachers and the teachers I've known as an adult.).

In line with a modified definition of today's use of education: Education can and should be had at the public library...not sitting in a desk for thirteen years expecting knowledge to be spoon fed.

On that, I think we see the aversion to work in Aikido--seems that most folks want to talk in class; they want to be told how to do everything.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the folks who are good, generally don't give away the secrets...you've got to earn them by doing the work yourself.


Also, I think when people think of education, they think of developing skills to "find" a job...Which is basically going from one form of dependence (the government) to another (the boss).

Taliesin
09-11-2005, 07:08 AM
Ron

My point was

"It is not clear quite why you believe this is a fair parallel to what appears to be an almost immediate breakdown in law and order (although there is the even worse possibility - that it simply revealed the current situation)."

As far as I am aware these problems when Hurricanes hit Cuba or Japan (to name but two). Although this may very well be down to far more efficient preparation as well as a more cohesive society.

As far as my observation is concerned, you cannot draw a fair parallel between denial of access to an area controlled by a certain quasi-state group and an almost total breakdown of law and order - whether you like it or not. Attempting to do so reflects a lack of understanding - and given this was the second time your observations were based on assumptions rather than historical facts.

BTW Ron this is not hostility towards you but if you make comments reflecting your lack of understanding, you cannot claim it is unjustified or antagonistic for them to be pointed out. Anymore than I can claim it is unjustified for my own errors to be pointed out.

Ron Tisdale
09-11-2005, 08:01 AM
Well, here is one error for you...you are making assumptions about my understanding based on the fact that we disagree in the interpretation of the facts.

I would agree that I would expect somewhat different reactions in dictatorships or a strongly homogenous society such as Japan. But I also wouldn't choose to live (long term) in either of those places.

Hi Jean,

there are many areas I know where walking out is not an exageration...you would be carried out or limping at best. That's just the way it is. I do know you were being facicious, though.

As to public education, it worked for my parents, it worked for myself, and my brother. My college education was private, though.

As for worrying about insignificant things, police corruption based on racism is not insignificant. Institutionalized racism which adds to the problems in terms of lack of education is not insignificant. One symptom is the flight from the public school systems of the middle and upper classes as segragation in the schools ended...especially a problem in the south.

Best,
Ron

Lorien Lowe
09-11-2005, 09:43 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/09/katrina.brown.reut/index.html

If I lied on my resume and got caught, I'd be fired.

Yeah, and you or almost anyone else would probably be fired and/or thrown in prison for revealing the identity of an active CIA operative, too.

L

Taliesin
09-12-2005, 04:42 AM
Ron

Nice try, but as I've explained why I believe you were wrong - which means by definition it cannot be an assumption. You have disagreed but done nothing to refute my arguments.

As far as where you would chose to live - I'd like to live in a democratic and independent Wales (instead of a UK with an Elective Dictatorship) - but that has nothing to do with the point that both Cuba and Japan took efficient steps to protect their people, which didn't happen in New Orleans. That there was no apparent social breakdown - which did occur in New Orleans.

But then it may very well be the result of a belief in Community and society rather than purely in self.
(Now that is likely to be an interesting debate)

Ron Tisdale
09-12-2005, 07:18 AM
I think we'd be on the same side in that arguement...

Best,
Ron

Hogan
09-12-2005, 08:00 AM
Yeah, and you or almost anyone else would probably be fired and/or thrown in prison for revealing the identity of an active CIA operative, too.

L

Too bad the reporter that revealed it is still working.... but he DID get suspended for swearing....

Nice.....

Taliesin
09-12-2005, 08:51 AM
Ron

On that point I think we would be on the same side. Nice to find something in common.

Hogan
09-13-2005, 08:35 AM
1st, the mayor of 'Nawlins fails his people (and then blames others), and NOW he deserts them:

"New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin (search) greeted President Bush when he arrived in Louisiana last night, and was at his side as he fielded questions on the Katrina relief efforts this morning. That quality time with the president, however, marks the mayor's first visit to the disaster area since Wednesday when Nagin pulled up stakes and moved his family to Dallas. The Dallas Morning News reports that Nagin has already bought a house in the city, and enrolled his daughter in school.

When the Mayor appeared on "Meet the Press" on Sunday from Dallas, he was never asked about his presence there, or his decision to move his family."

Ron Tisdale
09-13-2005, 09:30 AM
Where else is he supposed to move his family??? There are no services available in New Orleans...no schools, few areas with power...everyone is trying to get their kids enrolled in schools somewhere...what would be YOUR suggestion?

Best,
Ron (not saying the mayor is blameless...buses without drivers is a biggie)

Hogan
09-13-2005, 09:43 AM
Where else is he supposed to move his family??? There are no services available in New Orleans...no schools, few areas with power...everyone is trying to get their kids enrolled in schools somewhere...what would be YOUR suggestion?

Best,
Ron (not saying the mayor is blameless...buses without drivers is a biggie)

At least he could stay in his state (LA). Or even in the French Quarter to make a statement (the quarter seems to have power and is not flooded - he can move his family ELSEWHERE IN LA, but he could've stayed), like Jane Bryne did when Mayor of Chicago when she stayed in Cabrini Green (the very dangerous gang infested public housing complex). Or even off site in a boat. But at least stay in his state !

Steven
09-13-2005, 10:13 AM
What's your source? Please post a link to this article.



1st, the mayor of 'Nawlins fails his people (and then blames others), and NOW he deserts them:

"New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin (search) greeted President Bush when he arrived in Louisiana last night, and was at his side as he fielded questions on the Katrina relief efforts this morning. That quality time with the president, however, marks the mayor's first visit to the disaster area since Wednesday when Nagin pulled up stakes and moved his family to Dallas. The Dallas Morning News reports that Nagin has already bought a house in the city, and enrolled his daughter in school.

When the Mayor appeared on "Meet the Press" on Sunday from Dallas, he was never asked about his presence there, or his decision to move his family."

Hogan
09-13-2005, 12:11 PM
What's your source? Please post a link to this article.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169194,00.html

OR
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09.html

"In a stark reminder of how drastically Hurricane Katrina has affected the lives of New Orleanians, Mayor Ray Nagin has purchased a home in Dallas and enrolled his young daughter in school there.

Nagin, who spoke with The Times-Picayune by telephone from Dallas, where he has been since Wednesday, said he plans to return to New Orleans on Saturday. He said he will remain in the Crescent City while his family lives for the next six months in Dallas, making occasional visits to his family when possible.

It's not clear where Nagin will be living: His home on Bayou St. John suffered massive flooding, the mayor said, although he has not inspected it."

Ron Tisdale
09-13-2005, 12:50 PM
Well, that quote simply supports what I said. He has made provisions for his family, and will be onsite himself. Where is the fault in that?

As opposed to lying about your resume, for instance??

Best,
Ron

Hogan
09-13-2005, 01:07 PM
Well, that quote simply supports what I said. He has made provisions for his family, and will be onsite himself. Where is the fault in that?

As opposed to lying about your resume, for instance??

Best,
Ron

Onsite himself. Riiiiiiiight.

Who said anything about lying on a resume ? Who said that lying on a resume was good ? I think that's pretty obvious, like murder. Murder is bad, lying is bad, stealing is bad. The sky is blue, and the ground is mostly hard, and water is wet. And smoking will kill ya'.....

Ron Tisdale
09-13-2005, 01:27 PM
Do you have evidence that he will NOT be onsite? Should he keep his children out of school? Have them live in a house flooded with bacteria infested water? What?

Lying on your resume is a reference to Brownie, to whom Bush said "Brownie, you're doing a great job." Turns out the job he was doing stunk, and so did the resume he used to get the job in the first place.

R

Hogan
09-13-2005, 02:27 PM
Do you have evidence that he will NOT be onsite? Should he keep his children out of school? Have them live in a house flooded with bacteria infested water? What?
I said HE should stay. And as he has shown himself to be a lying, two bit hack of a mayor who balmes everyone but himself, I have no evidence he WILL stay.

Lying on your resume is a reference to Brownie, to whom Bush said "Brownie, you're doing a great job." Turns out the job he was doing stunk, and so did the resume he used to get the job in the first place.R

Yes, I knew who you were talking about, but fail to see the connection to whether the mayor left or not. Trying to deflect, are we ?

Ron Tisdale
09-13-2005, 02:53 PM
As far as we know now, he will be there. When there is evidence that he will not? I have seen no evidence of him lying to date. He did make mistakes (as in the buses) but lying?

I'll take your two bit hack of mayor and raise you one F'd up president.

Not trying to deflect, just continuing a conversation from about four posts up in the thread.

Best,
Ron (deflection is for wimps, take the hit, and smile) :)

Hogan
09-13-2005, 03:45 PM
As far as we know now, he will be there. When there is evidence that he will not? I have seen no evidence of him lying to date. He did make mistakes (as in the buses) but lying?
He lies everytime he says it's not his fault.


I'll take your two bit hack of mayor and raise you one F'd up president.
ahahaha.... ex-presidents don't count (Clinton)... :)

Not trying to deflect, just continuing a conversation from about four posts up in the thread.

With me ? I am sure I didn't bring up the resume lying with the Mayor leaving....

Steven
09-13-2005, 03:58 PM
By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush said Tuesday that "I take responsibility" for failures in dealing with Hurricane Katrina and said the disaster raised broader questions about the government's ability to respond to natural disasters as well as terror attacks. "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at joint White House news conference with the president of Iraq.

"To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said.

http://preview.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050913/ap_on_go_ot/katrina_washington_16

Ron Tisdale
09-13-2005, 04:05 PM
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050909-113107-3180r.htm

Just in case someone tries to say blacks aren't angry at the mayor too...

Best,
Ron (there sure is enough blame to go around)

Hogan
09-13-2005, 04:10 PM
By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush said Tuesday that "I take responsibility" for failures in dealing with Hurricane Katrina and said the disaster raised broader questions about the government's ability to respond to natural disasters as well as terror attacks. "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at joint White House news conference with the president of Iraq.

"To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said.

http://preview.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050913/ap_on_go_ot/katrina_washington_16


I wonder when we can expect the mayor and governor to accept responsibility for the city & state's failures.

I will hold my breath until they do....

I'm holding....


Holding....


hold....

:dead:

Neil Mick
09-13-2005, 09:26 PM
He lies everytime he says it's not his fault.

Coming from you, that's really funny.

Mr. "wmd's in Iraq;" "Saddam Hussein and 9-11;" and "Brownie, yer doing a heck of a job;" isn't a liar--but a mayor who was repeatedly told that FEMA is coming, IS a liar. :freaky: :freaky:

I wonder when we can expect the mayor and governor to accept responsibility for the city & state's failures.

I will hold my breath until they do....

I'm holding....


Holding....


hold....

:dead:

Oh, please. The mayor of one of the poorest cities in the nation can hardly be compared to the President of the most powerful nation in the country, in emergency preparedness, especially when Negin and Blanco were told repeatedly that "the calvary is coming..."

as they waited,

and waited,

and waited.

And Bush "accepts responsibility?" Whoah. Give the guy a medal. Let's all praise the Great Man and sing hosannah's, for all the good it will do.

Is he airdropping in needed supplies? No.

Is he talking of restoring FEMA to a cabinet position? No.

Is he discussing any changes at all?

Will he (*gasp*) apologize?

Don't hold your breath.

The best "responsibility" he could "accept" is an acceptance of a resignation, once the disaster-area is back on its feet.

Neil Mick
09-13-2005, 09:45 PM
And then there's this:
Conyers Report (http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=53236)

-- All necessary conditions for federal relief were met on August 28. Pursuant to Section 502 of the Stafford Act, "(t)he declaration of an emergency by the President makes Federal emergency assistance available," and the President made such a declaration on August 28. The public record indicates that several additional days passed before such assistance was actually made available to the State;

-- The Governor must make a timely request for such assistance, which meets the requirements of federal law. The report states that "(e)xcept to the extent that an emergency involves primarily Federal interests, both declarations of major disaster and declarations of emergency must be triggered by a request to the President from the Governor of the affected state";

-- The Governor did indeed make such a request, which was both timely and in compliance with federal law. The report finds that "Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco requested by letter dated August 27, 2005...that the President declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period from August 26, 2005 and continuing pursuant to (applicable Federal statute)" and "Governor Blanco's August 27, 2005 request for an emergency declaration also included her determination...that 'the incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of disaster."

Hogan
09-14-2005, 08:21 AM
...
Oh, please. The mayor of one of the poorest cities in the nation can hardly be compared to the President of the most powerful nation in the country, in emergency preparedness, especially when Negin and Blanco were told repeatedly that "the calvary is coming..." ....

Yes, it's quite poor. All those hundreds of millions coming into the city from tourists every yr, from Mardi Gras to Quarter Fest to Jazz to architecture...

Yes, very poor...

And they still haven't accepted blame for their own stupidity.

Be adults.... stand up.... quit blaming Uncle Sam mayor & Guv.

IMPEACH THEM NOW !

James Davis
09-14-2005, 11:37 AM
FEMA is for monetary help after a disaster, not for swooping in and saving everyone.
Blanco was asked to evacuate by President Bush 48 hours before the hurricane made landfall. She said she needed 24 hours to decide.
New Orleans' citizens were told to bring four days worth of food with them to the superdome; did they? Were the able-bodied young men appropriating food from stores with the intention of taking it back to the weak and sick people?
What would NOW have to say about W if he had used his power to enforce a mandatory evacuation to help out an indecisive "little lady"? If Bush had bumped the governor out of the way and took over her state in the interest of saving lives, people would be accusing him of hating women!

President Bush can't win when people are just looking for reasons to hate him. Continue hating Bush if you so desire, and send Louisiana some money.

Ron Tisdale
09-14-2005, 11:57 AM
New Orleans' citizens were told to bring four days worth of food with them to the superdome; did they?

As I understand it, the people in the superdome were those without private transportation. I wonder how a family of five, with no exposure to camping/hiking etc., would bring enough food for 4 days? God forbid they should have to bring water too...water is HEAVY.

Were the able-bodied young men appropriating food from stores with the intention of taking it back to the weak and sick people?

In some cases yes. I'm also positive in some cases no.

Continue hating Bush if you so desire, and send Louisiana some money.

Done!

Best,
Ron :)

Ron Tisdale
09-14-2005, 12:16 PM
FEMA is for monetary help after a disaster, not for swooping in and saving everyone.

Oh really? Check out this link:

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/in_brief-fema_strat_plan_fy03-08.pdf

It is the brochure for FEMA...it mentions as it's mission:

Mission:
Lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to, and recover from disasters.
and it's goals:
1. Reduce loss of life and property.
2. Minimize suffering and disruption caused by disasters.
3. Prepare the Nation to address the consequences of
terrorism.
4. Serve as the Nation's portal for emergency management
information and expertise.
5. Create a motivating and challenging work environment
for employees.
6. Make FEMA a world-class enterprise.
The specific objectives and measurements listed on the brochure are quite illuminating. I'd actually never looked at specifically what FEMA IS supposed to do until you said that.

Thanks,

Ron

Hogan
09-14-2005, 01:41 PM
As I understand it, the people in the superdome were those without private transportation. I wonder how a family of five, with no exposure to camping/hiking etc., would bring enough food for 4 days? God forbid they should have to bring water too...water is HEAVY.

Well, maybe the city should have provided buses or something...

Oh wait !!!

And another thing, the mayor provided information to his population re any evacuation, and told them they were on their own. I provided this info earlier. Perhaps the mayor shold have prepared his own people. I know in my city, there is preparation.


In some cases yes. I'm also positive in some cases no.
Probably watching those big screen TV's they stole...

giriasis
09-14-2005, 01:43 PM
Why does a person need to learn how to go camping to know how to prepare for a hurricane? Ahem...since Ron has family in Jacksonville and Orlando, he should know that every year we are briefed as how to prepare, and that the stores are filled with Hurricane Preparedness Guides like this: NBC6 Hurricane Preparedness Guide (http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0620/4629298.pdf) .

You bring at least 1-2 gallons per person per day, usually for 3 days, but for a big storm it's for 5 days. That means each person for Katrina need at least 5 gallons of water for a family of 5 that would make it 25 gallons of water. Now, as to why those folks didn't bring any supplies with them is that if you have every had to stock up for a storm you'd know that as soon as they call for evacuations people rush to the stores and make their purchases then. What happens is that the stores run out of the essentials like water, ice, and canned and non-perishable goods. Also, the amount of money you need to stock up on these items for long enough adds up quick. So the probably didn't have anything because of at least one of two reasons: 1. they didn't have the money and/ or 2. the stores ran out of supplies.

And you are ALWAYS told to bring your own supplies with you when you go to a shelter and that food and water will not be provided at the shelter. I think that is why the "holdouts" remained in their homes, that's where they had their supplies, and many of the "holdouts" didn't leave until they ran out.

Hogan
09-14-2005, 01:47 PM
Oh really? Check out this link:

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/in_brief-fema_strat_plan_fy03-08.pdf

It is the brochure for FEMA...it mentions as it's mission:


and it's goals:

The specific objectives and measurements listed on the brochure are quite illuminating. I'd actually never looked at specifically what FEMA IS supposed to do until you said that.

Thanks,

Ron


FEMA is NOT a first responder. Locals are. Complain all you want, but the locals dropped the ball on this one. Why did the GUV want 24 hrs to decide ? Why did the Pres & head of hurrican office have to BEG the mayor to evacuate ? Why the the mayor delay in that order ? Why did he not enforce it ? Why did he tell locals they were on their own ?


Hmmmm... enquiring minds want to know.

Ron Tisdale
09-14-2005, 02:04 PM
Hi Anne Marie. The reason I said that was simple. You are talking about people with no means of private transportation. It's not like they loaded up the car with the supplies you mentioned, drove to the super dome, unloaded the car, and carried the stuff in. How big is NO? How far to the bus/train/etc. stop? Was public transportation running at that time? Did people walk all the way to the super dome? Carrying the supplies you mentioned? Have you ever walked 30 miles carrying food and water for four days? I have...if I had to do that for a family of four, one of them a pregnant woman, the others young kids, I couldn't do it now. Or at least would have a hard time.

It really has nothing to do with the fact that I have family in Orlando and Jacksonville, which is where my parents are from. If you'd like to debate my parentage, hey, have at it, but I won't be participating... :) My reference to camping is because people who hike regularly are IN SHAPE TO ACTUALLY CARRY THAT MUCH WEIGHT. So let's not be obtuse...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
09-14-2005, 02:06 PM
Hi John,

Why did the GUV want 24 hrs to decide ?

Gotta admit, that one got me too. I think it had something to do with turning all authority for the operation over to the feds. Now, if it was me, and I couldn't do anything about the situation, I'd just turn over the authority to get the help. And it wouldn't take me 24 hours to figure that out.

Best,
Ron

Hogan
09-14-2005, 02:37 PM
Hi John,



Gotta admit, that one got me too. I think it had something to do with turning all authority for the operation over to the feds. Now, if it was me, and I couldn't do anything about the situation, I'd just turn over the authority to get the help. And it wouldn't take me 24 hours to figure that out.

Best,
Ron

Personally, I think it had to do with politics. GUV & Mayor don't like each other.

Hogan
09-14-2005, 02:39 PM
Hi Anne Marie. The reason I said that was simple. You are talking about people with no means of private transportation. It's not like they loaded up the car with the supplies you mentioned, drove to the super dome, unloaded the car, and carried the stuff in. How big is NO? How far to the bus/train/etc. stop? Was public transportation running at that time? Did people walk all the way to the super dome? Carrying the supplies you mentioned? Have you ever walked 30 miles carrying food and water for four days? I have...if I had to do that for a family of four, one of them a pregnant woman, the others young kids, I couldn't do it now. Or at least would have a hard time.

It really has nothing to do with the fact that I have family in Orlando and Jacksonville, which is where my parents are from. If you'd like to debate my parentage, hey, have at it, but I won't be participating... :) My reference to camping is because people who hike regularly are IN SHAPE TO ACTUALLY CARRY THAT MUCH WEIGHT. So let's not be obtuse...

Best,
Ron

Then the Mayors CD to the folks shouldn't have said to folks they were on their own. He failed.

IMPEACH !

Ron Tisdale
09-14-2005, 02:39 PM
Now why isn't that surprising!!!

Ron (man oh man, we get what we deserve...)

giriasis
09-14-2005, 03:10 PM
Hi Anne Marie. The reason I said that was simple. You are talking about people with no means of private transportation. It's not like they loaded up the car with the supplies you mentioned, drove to the super dome, unloaded the car, and carried the stuff in. How big is NO? How far to the bus/train/etc. stop? Was public transportation running at that time? Did people walk all the way to the super dome? Carrying the supplies you mentioned? Have you ever walked 30 miles carrying food and water for four days? I have...if I had to do that for a family of four, one of them a pregnant woman, the others young kids, I couldn't do it now. Or at least would have a hard time.

It really has nothing to do with the fact that I have family in Orlando and Jacksonville, which is where my parents are from. If you'd like to debate my parentage, hey, have at it, but I won't be participating... :) My reference to camping is because people who hike regularly are IN SHAPE TO ACTUALLY CARRY THAT MUCH WEIGHT. So let's not be obtuse...

Best,
Ron

Obtuse? me? So what you're really talking about is hiking then. Yes, I have hiked miles through the Fakahatchee Strand (East Everglades) and carried gallons of water. It was heavy, hot, humid and filled with mosquitos. Yes, it takes lots of water and it is heavy -- hence my point that that is perhaps the reason those who had supplies "the holdouts" stayed in the homes and didn't go to the Superdome. So in someways I agree with you. Oh, and before the storm I did see footage of two men carrying a hugh cooler into the superdome. So at least two people heeded the orders. Also, if you noticed the footage of the Superdome there were cars parked in the parking lot and parked in the streets around it. So some people had transportation -- probably didn't want to bother with the traffic. Also, there were buses taking people to the superdome. While it would not have been practical to have a hugh supply of water. It would have been practical to have -- something.

My point about your parents relates back to my previous post and your obtuse response to that. Other than Flyod, what kinds of Hurricanes have you prepared for? I imagine you have made precautions for the winter months in Penn, right? What do you say to people there who don't prepare? If they don't prepare, why don't they? And regarding Flyod that storm was headed straight to my home town of Melbourne, btw, which we were warned about at least a week in advanced, of which we evacuated from the barrier islands at least a day in advanced. But we don't have a hugh population of 800,000 + people to evacuate from an entire city. I've actually had to evacuate from my home a couple of times for a Hurricane. Fortunately for us Flyod turned North, the night it was to make landfall, and only took out the Daytona Beach Pier.

But I also understand the kind of complaceny that sets in your mind that you don't have to worry about "such and such" storm. Last year in a 6 week period we were inudated by 4 major storms. You get sick of moving and preparing and being worried "where it will hit, because they can't predict exactly where it will go." I can understand why folks didn't leave -- they thought they could "ride it out." But given that you are still responsible for your own actions.

Ron Tisdale
09-14-2005, 03:32 PM
One in Ohio (believe it or not) and the stories from my parents preparing in their youth. How exactly was I obtuse in that regard? Hey, at least we're equaly obtuse :)

So in someways I agree with you. So maybe neither of us are obtuse... :)

What do you say to people there who don't prepare?

I don't say anything to people who don't prepare. I just smile and go on my way. Kind of like people who go camping in wilderness areas and sleep with the food in their tent. I just smile, and make sure MY tent isn't next to theirs...afterward, I'm always glad to share MY food with them though. I always try to bring a little extra. I still remember that time in the adirondacks when I first saw up close and personal what a bear can do to a back pack. :)

I think the population problem was not fully anticipated in NO. My impression of the evacuations in Florida recently is that things were a bit more spread out demographically. Can you shed some light?

Best,
Ron

Steven
09-14-2005, 07:53 PM
Another interesting twist.

WASHINGTON - The federal official with the power to mobilize a massive federal response to Hurricane Katrina was Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, not the former FEMA chief who was relieved of his duties and resigned earlier this week, federal documents reviewed by Knight Ridder show.

Even before the storm struck the Gulf Coast, Chertoff could have ordered federal agencies into action without any request from state or local officials. Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown had only limited authority to do so until about 36 hours after the storm hit, when Chertoff designated him as the "principal federal official" in charge of the storm.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/krwashbureau/20050914/ts_krwashbureau/_wea_katrina_response_exclusive

giriasis
09-14-2005, 09:53 PM
I think the population problem was not fully anticipated in NO. My impression of the evacuations in Florida recently is that things were a bit more spread out demographically. Can you shed some light?

The major populations centers are the Tri-County area of Southeast Florida (Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach), Orlando, the Tampa/St. Pete area, Orlando and Jacksonville. In about that order. Here's an article about what the Florida National Guard has considered: Florida National Guard Article (http://www.ngb.army.mil/news/story.asp?id=134) and read this from the Palm Beach Post (no, I didn't read this article to base my comments on I just found this): Palm Beach Post article (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/state/epaper/2005/09/10/m1a_response_0910.html)

My comments are just based on my experience of, with the exception of 3 months in Connecticut, living my whole life in Florida. After Andrew similar complaints were made in the state that there was a slow Federal response and even after that we still had massive traffic tie up in response to Flyod. What they do now whenever we are under a Hurricane Warning is to waive the tolls on the Turnpike which is another North-South thourogh-fare and takes us South Floridians straight to Orlando. see this article regarding updates to our traffic flow issues Florida Highway Patrol (http://www.wesh.com/hurricanes/4616414/detail.html) Note that the date of this article is June 2005, pre-Katrina and at the beginning of our Hurricane Season.

Central Florida Evacuation Routes (http://www.wesh.com/weshinsider/4588754/detail.html?page=24) If you flip through the previous pages you'll find a list of supplies (page 20) you need to buy, and you're told what to do when: When a warning is issued and then when a watch issued. In Melbourne/ Brevard County (Central Florida East Coast), you notice on the maps we don't have to travel to far to get to a safe location.

This is how Hillsborough County (Tampa) plans out their evacuations zones. Specifically check out Figures 4 and Figures 5 Hillsborough HEAT (http://gis.esri.com/library/userconf/proc02/pap0174/p0174.htm) There are also similar plans in place in other parts of the state

Here is an article from the Houston Chronicle comparing, somewhat, Florida Plans v. Louisiana Plans and local/ state prepardedness in Louisiana City had evacuation plan but strayed (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3344347)

Neil Mick
09-14-2005, 10:24 PM
Yes, it's quite poor. All those hundreds of millions coming into the city from tourists every yr, from Mardi Gras to Quarter Fest to Jazz to architecture...

Yes, very poor...

Yes, exactly: very poor. And, if you think that a few festivals will totally change all of that and bring money to all sectors of society...then I have some suggestions for a few economics and civics classes, for you (not to mention, a few chapters devoted to corporate globalization, and its effects on local communities).

And they still haven't accepted blame for their own stupidity.

Be adults.... stand up.... quit blaming Uncle Sam mayor & Guv.

IMPEACH THEM NOW !

And, all I hear from you is it's the "holdout's" fault; it's the mayor's/gov's/everyone else's, BUT the President's, fault.

Gosh. Money sure can't buy that kind of loyalty. If it were MY President (i.e., David Cobb) sitting up there in the Big White Mansion who played guitar and jet-setted around the country while New Orleans drowned, you'd better believe that I'd be demanding HIS resignation, partisan-affiliation or not.

But David Cobb, I imagine, cares about black people.

George W. Bush doesn't like black folks.

Hogan
09-15-2005, 08:46 AM
Yes, exactly: very poor. And, if you think that a few festivals will totally change all of that and bring money to all sectors of society...then I have some suggestions for a few economics and civics classes, for you (not to mention, a few chapters devoted to corporate globalization, and its effects on local communities).

Then perhaps the local government (i.e., MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS) should start to spread that money around. Shameful that he would allow such a thing to happen...

IMPEACH !

And, all I hear from you is it's the "holdout's" fault; it's the mayor's/gov's/everyone else's, BUT the President's, fault.
Not at all - I have heard nothing from you people other than it's the presidents fault and NOT the locals.

Everyone is to blame. I am trying to provide balance. Have the loca;s accepted any blame like the pres has a couple of days ago ? I heard the GUV did last night - that's a start.

And look at this latest outrage by the democrats, which I am sure will be blamed on Bush somehow:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169412,00.html

"A Louisiana lawmaker diverted National Guard resources and held up rescue operations for hours during Hurricane Katrina's aftermath — all so he could retrieve his personal possessions. ABC News reports that six soldiers escorted Democratic Representative William Jefferson to his New Orleans home in a five-ton truck on September 2, pulling up to the front door so the congressman wouldn't get his feet wet.

That led to the truck getting stuck in the mud and troops had to signal a Coast Guard helicopter to rescue Jefferson and his belongings. But Jefferson refused to get in the chopper leaving it hovering overhead for 45 minutes. Guardsmen finally called a second truck to rescue the first one and to carry Jefferson and his belongings to safety."

ALSO:
Emergency Correction

The Washington Post has corrected a story on September 4 that quoted a White House official as saying Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco (search) had yet to declare a state of emergency five days after Hurricane Katrina made landfall. Blanco made that declaration on August 26, two days before the storm hit the state, leaving some to wonder why no federal troops were dispatched at the time. But in fact, the federal troops were not sent because Blanco had not asked for them, as the law requires.
On the Wednesday after the storm, Blanco was caught on tape telling her press secretary, "I really need to call for the military. I should have started that in the first call."

George W. Bush doesn't like black folks.

He also hates midgets, too, don't forget.

Steven
09-15-2005, 09:21 AM
From CNN.com

While Blanco, a Democrat, has at times been critical of federal relief efforts, she thanked President Bush and called him a "friend and partner" to her state. She also thanked Congress for appropriating billions in relief.

"We cannot rebuild without you," she said, noting she has asked the federal government to cover "100 percent" of what the state spends on the disaster, as was done in New York after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

Blanco conceded "there were failures at every level of government, state, federal and local," in the response to the disaster.

"At the state level, we must take a careful look at what went wrong and make sure it never happens again," Blanco said. "The buck stops here, and as your governor, I take full responsibility."


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/14/katrina.impact/index.html

So now the Gov and the Pres are friends and the Gov takes full responsibility.

Ron Tisdale
09-15-2005, 09:27 AM
Democratic Representative William Jefferson ...

Now THERE is someone I think we ALL agree should be impeached!

Thanks for the reading Anne Marie. It sounds like Florida is much better able to stick to the plan than La. was.

Best,
Ron

giriasis
09-15-2005, 10:03 AM
Thanks for the reading Anne Marie. It sounds like Florida is much better able to stick to the plan than La. was.

The only reason for us being more prepared is that we learned the lesson the hard way as a result of Hurricane Andrew. It's truly unfortunate that the Gulf Coast has to learn their lesson the hard way, too.

Hogan
09-15-2005, 12:31 PM
None of this would've happened if it wasn't for those damned environmentalists - the bastards....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169396,00.html


Hours after Hurricane Katrina (search) passed, New Orleans was underwater. Some experts say the flooding could have been stopped a quarter-century ago — had environmentalists not interfered.

In 1965, after Hurricane Betsy (search), President Lyndon Johnson authorized the Army Corps of Engineers to build two floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pontchartrain. Simulations showed a Category 3 hurricane could raise the water level in the lake by as many as 12 feet, potentially overwhelming the levees and flooding the city — just as Katrina did more than two weeks ago.

The Army spent millions planning the project — until it was stopped by an environmental group called Save Our Wetlands, which filed a lawsuit arguing that the floodgates would damage sensitive marine life.

“If there was some sort of storm structure there, like floodgates, it would have reduced significantly the amount of storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain,” said Prof. Greg Stone of the Louisiana State University Coastal Studies Institute.

Today, some environmentalists admit that such a project may be unavoidable, but they also say that restoring natural wetlands is important and would provide a natural barrier against a dangerous storm surge.

“It is not about blame — that’s history. What this is about is saving and protecting lives,” said Valsin Marmillion of American Wetlands. “Any proposal has to be done in concert with saving the wetlands. It is not either/or. It is people figuring out the best science to do this.”

Neil Mick
09-15-2005, 04:12 PM
Then perhaps the local government (i.e., MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS) should start to spread that money around. Shameful that he would allow such a thing to happen...

And if you really think that the mayor of New Orleans controls all the money that comes out of Mardi Gras: then I suggest you RUN, DO NOT WALK, to those civics classes.

Then perhaps the local government (i.e., MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS) should start to spread that money around. Shameful that he would allow such a thing to happen...

IMPEACH !


Not at all - I have heard nothing from you people other than it's the presidents fault and NOT the locals.

Everyone is to blame. I am trying to provide balance. Have the loca;s accepted any blame like the pres has a couple of days ago ? I heard the GUV did last night - that's a start.


And, ever since Iraq, all I hear from you and all the other Bush-faithful is "it's EVERYONE'S fault! Bush lied: EVERYONE lied!"

It's a transparent tactic to avoid placing responsibility, spreading the blame out so far that the burden of taking responsibility becomes diffused.

Bush's "claiming responsibility" means nothing. It has no value other than to play to the media. Sure, others are responsible, but a REAL leader would accept responsibility in a REAL way, instead of as a means for a photo-op.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169412,00.html

To quote Ron:

FoxNews is a shill for the Bush-House. :p

Adam Alexander
09-15-2005, 04:23 PM
It's the fault of the individuals. Politicians are the manifestation of the group.

You shouldn't trust the government. Here's why: Katrina.

Hogan
09-15-2005, 05:30 PM
And if you really think that the mayor of New Orleans controls all the money that comes out of Mardi Gras: then I suggest you RUN, DO NOT WALK, to those civics classes.

Didn't say all. But, it appears you need some civics lessons. Cities have a thing called taxes - hotel taxes, entertainment taxes, airline taxes, etc... ALL is contingent upon the number of tourists, and the city can raise said taxes, and hence, can have more money to... oh, I don't know, spread around....

... spreading the blame out so far that the burden of taking responsibility becomes diffused.
If you think only ONE person is to blame for things, then you really DO need to get to civics classes.


To quote Ron:

FoxNews is a shill for the Bush-House. :p
It is a news source.... a fair & balanced news source, according to studies. Just because ALL their stories aren't negative about Bush doesn't mean that they like him. Perhaps a media course would do you well, too.

Neil Mick
09-16-2005, 05:00 PM
Didn't say all. But, it appears you need some civics lessons. Cities have a thing called taxes - hotel taxes, entertainment taxes, airline taxes, etc... ALL is contingent upon the number of tourists, and the city can raise said taxes, and hence, can have more money to... oh, I don't know, spread around....

It's so damn funny to hear you go on about "spreading money around:" when only a month ago you were touting how we need a bloated military (greater than the next 7 largest national military budgets, combined) to "protect US interests (read: US corporate interests)." You can't have it both ways. You give all your money away to the military and pro-business: that's it, there ain't no more.

Negin is pro-business. Now, I am no expert on N.O. politics (and, I am positive, neither are you): and so I am fuzzy on the details. I am sure that Negin deserves some of the blame.

But it's really funny to hear you chant egalitarianism spending. Boy oh boy: when the Bush-media boat starts to sink, the Bush-faithful start looking around, for whom to toss first, right?

Poor Negin just happens to be sitting there, shivering in the back of the boat. He's a Democrat--perfect choice.

And so, the new chant is "IMPEACH THE LOCALS! IMPEACH EVERYONE (and, um, Bush is sort of responsible, too)!!!!!!!!!!!

If you think only ONE person is to blame for things, then you really DO need to get to civics classes.

Nope, never said this. Sorry, nice try.




It is a news source.... a fair & balanced news source, according to studies.

Garbage. Studies show an overt bias AGAINST Liberal sources, in FoxNews. Provide an independent source, to back your claim (and believe me: I already have one, to back mine).

Hogan
09-17-2005, 01:27 PM
It's so damn funny to hear you go on about "spreading money around:" when only a month ago you were touting how we need a bloated military (greater than the next 7 largest national military budgets, combined) to "protect US interests (read: US corporate interests)." You can't have it both ways. You give all your money away to the military and pro-business: that's it, there ain't no more.

What's really damn funny is you putting words into my mouth. Never said "...we need a bloated military (greater than the next 7 largest national military budgets, combined) to "protect US interests (read: US corporate interests)."

Bloated & US corporate interests are your choice of words. And who cares whether it's bigger than the next 7 ? I HOPE it is bigger. The world wants a policeman, then we need to provide one.

....I am sure that Negin deserves some of the blame.

Lordy lord... now I can expect the CUBS to win the world series.... You said he deserves some of the blame....you said it !!! He said it people !!!

Well,

But it's really funny to hear you chant egalitarianism spending. Boy oh boy: when the Bush-media boat starts to sink, the Bush-faithful start looking around, for whom to toss first, right?

Poor Negin just happens to be sitting there, shivering in the back of the boat. He's a Democrat--perfect choice.

And so, the new chant is "IMPEACH THE LOCALS! IMPEACH EVERYONE (and, um, Bush is sort of responsible, too)!!!!!!!!!!!

Boy ... you really do fantasize a lot. I said impeach everyone ? Not... I chant egallitarianism ? Not. What I said was that cities have tax bases. Bases they use to "spread the wealth". Perhaps you should study up on it. Even the federal government does it.



Nope, never said this. Sorry, nice try.

You said I was trying the spread the blame, while at the same time you only said Bush was to blame. Um, yes, blame DOES need to be spread around, and now you finally said the mayor deserves some of it...

LORDY LORD !!!

Garbage. Studies show an overt bias AGAINST Liberal sources, in FoxNews. Provide an independent source, to back your claim (and believe me: I already have one, to back mine).

This would require some research, but on MSNBC (NOT FOX), it had a story of a professional media research firm that looked into the negative stories vs. positve stories against Bush. Guess what ? It said that ALL news org.'s had more negative stories than positce for Bush (i.e., negative SLANTS when they didn't need to be). But guess what org. had more balance, even though the STILL had more negative ? FOX. Sounds more balanced to me.

But let me try to find the research and get back to you this week.

Neil Mick
09-18-2005, 02:55 AM
What's really damn funny is you putting words into my mouth. Never said "...we need a bloated military (greater than the next 7 largest national military budgets, combined) to "protect US interests (read: US corporate interests)."

Bloated & US corporate interests are your choice of words. And who cares whether it's bigger than the next 7 ? I HOPE it is bigger. The world wants a policeman, then we need to provide one.

I don't know if you'd heard (it made the papers, after all): but there has been a drop in aid to states, and thereby to cities. Guess where a lot of this money went? Hint: a five sided building...

Lordy lord... now I can expect the CUBS to win the world series.... You said he deserves some of the blame....you said it !!! He said it people !!!

Look, when you get snippy: you tend to miss the finer details. Here's what I'd like the World According to Neil to be:

1. Impeach Bush
2. Call together a independent investigating committee, to investigate culpability, including Chertoff, Blanco, Negin, many of the police who are down there waving weapons at ppl and forcing them back into disaster zones;
3. Investigate corruption of sole-source contracting (again! Damn, do they have to be so transparent??)
4. Allow a forum for the minority diaspora to have a say in rebuilding N.O. (this one's the most important!)

Boy ... you really do fantasize a lot.

Boy, you like to insult a lot.

I said impeach everyone ? Not... I chant egallitarianism ? Not. What I said was that cities have tax bases. Bases they use to "spread the wealth". Perhaps you should study up on it. Even the federal government does it.

Perhaps you should look up "poorest city in the country," in the dictionary.


You said I was trying the spread the blame, while at the same time you only said Bush was to blame. Um, yes, blame DOES need to be spread around, and now you finally said the mayor deserves some of it...

LORDY LORD !!!

duh.

This would require some research, but on MSNBC (NOT FOX), it had a story of a professional media research firm that looked into the negative stories vs. positve stories against Bush. Guess what ? It said that ALL news org.'s had more negative stories than positce for Bush (i.e., negative SLANTS when they didn't need to be). But guess what org. had more balance, even though the STILL had more negative ? FOX. Sounds more balanced to me.

Sounds more like a crock to me. MSNBC, biased? Aahahahahaha.

But please: source away, I await with baited breath.

But let me try to find the research and get back to you this week.

I'm a patient man.

mj
09-18-2005, 08:05 AM
I think you guys are getting tied up in an argument again.

There is less coverage now over here but there still hasn't been so much as a nurse seen, let alone any co-ordinated medical push. As I have said before, it may be our coverage...

...which has now started to concentrate on the recovery measures.

The view from over here is now generally that the failures involved in coping with this disaster are pretty much cultural. We have a welfare state and universal health-care, you don't. If you had (any form of) those systems in place then the apparatus to cope would already have been available.

These are not criticisms they are observations.

Given that the president has said that the money will be coming from cutting services and not from taxation, it seems depressingly clear that this will leave the poorer segments of society even more at the mercy of random chance.

Neil Mick
09-18-2005, 09:19 PM
The view from over here is now generally that the failures involved in coping with this disaster are pretty much cultural. We have a welfare state and universal health-care, you don't. If you had (any form of) those systems in place then the apparatus to cope would already have been available.

These are not criticisms they are observations.

Mark, you're absolutely right. The problems coping with this disaster are cultural. No unbiased observer has any illusions that if Katrina had struck in Kennebunkport, Cape Cod, or Long Island (rich, white, tony areas): the response would have been far more immediate.

But what really strikes me is the similarity to Iraq. Sole source contracts are being doled out to the buddies of Bush. Bush has cut the requirement to be paid the prevailing wage for workers in the affected areas.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush issued an executive order Thursday allowing federal contractors rebuilding in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina to pay below the prevailing wage. (http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/08/news/economy/katrina_wages.reut/)

In a notice to Congress, Bush said the hurricane had caused "a national emergency" that permits him to take such action under the 1931 Davis-Bacon Act in ravaged areas of Alabama, Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi.

The Davis-Bacon law requires federal contractors to pay workers at least the prevailing wages in the area where the work is conducted. It applies to federally funded construction projects such as highways and bridges.

Bush's executive order suspends the requirements of the Davis-Bacon law for designated areas hit by the storm.

Bush's action came as the federal government moved to provide billions of dollars in aid, and drew rebukes from two of organized labor's biggest friends in Congress, Rep. George Miller of California and Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, both Democrats.

"The administration is using the devastation of Hurricane Katrina to cut the wages of people desperately trying to rebuild their lives and their communities," Miller said.

Gotta love our "man of the people:" George is just "looking out for the little guy." :yuck: :yuck:

Given that the president has said that the money will be coming from cutting services and not from taxation, it seems depressingly clear that this will leave the poorer segments of society even more at the mercy of random chance.

Worse, there is much talk of "rebuilding the city," but with the African-American survivors spread out all over the country (with no record of where they are); and with the Af-Am community not being consulted about these "bright, shiny" new changes--any worry that the New, New Orleans will look a lot "whiter" than before, with no place for the former poor residents.

giriasis
09-19-2005, 12:26 PM
There is less coverage now over here but there still hasn't been so much as a nurse seen, let alone any co-ordinated medical push. As I have said before, it may be our coverage...


Miami Medical Crews go to New Orleans (http://www.nbc6.net/news/4923734/detail.html)

This dated Sept. 1 right after the hurricane. Yes, there was medical coordination, but unfortunately doctors going to New Orleans from Miami does not make international headlines.

And just more about the The Spirit of South Florida (http://www.nbc6.net/spiritofsouthflorida/index.html) All Americans are not ignoramous or heartless callous individuals as some might like you to believe. Our local news sources are the best information for this kind of information, not our national or international.

mj
09-19-2005, 01:16 PM
All Americans are not ignoramous or heartless callous individuals as some might like you to believe....
I object strongly to you quoting me then saying this. I did not say it and I find your implication to be beyond the pale.

Anyway - the comment I made was that you do not have a system of universal health care/welfare as part of your culture - it seems (I may be wrong) that you rely on charity.

Kids selling lemonade, companies giving (tax exempt) donations and so on.

Like I say, cultural differences.

mj
09-19-2005, 01:59 PM
Of course I was probably misreading it. You know how it can be on forums where all we have are words.

giriasis
09-19-2005, 02:09 PM
I object strongly to you quoting me then saying this. I did not say it and I find your implication to be beyond the pale.

Anyway - the comment I made was that you do not have a system of universal health care/welfare as part of your culture - it seems (I may be wrong) that you rely on charity.

Kids selling lemonade, companies giving (tax exempt) donations and so on.

Like I say, cultural differences.

I didn't mean that phrase to come across like that Mark, and I apoligize if it sounded like I was trying to imply you were saying this. It's just my impression that is how America is viewed around the world. I really meant it more as a tongue in cheeky way of saying things.

Yes, we do rely on charity quite a bit. The Salvation Army is a big one and charity is very much the way many of the "haves" in the country give back to the "have-nots." And the government at least provides an incintive to the "haves" to give them a tax deduction when they do, and you can get one for as little as a $25 donation to a registered 501(c)(3) charity.

mj
09-19-2005, 03:12 PM
Yes, sorry about that.

At the risk of going off-topic, I'm pretty sure most countries give tax relief for charitable donations, we get them here too. I just started my new job as a tax inspector btw. :D

However given that America is certainly going to be hit by a lot more hurricanes, wouldn't it be prudent to get a system in place that didn't rely on charity?

I'm not even talking about universal health care or a welfare system.

I mean Bush refuses to raise taxes to cope with this disaster, or even a one-off tax that would attack massive profits (as has been done here) which is fair enough I'm not saying yeah or nay, it's your country. But if more of them come along you can't seriously expect people to keep putting their hands in their pockets?

You're the richest country in the world for God's sake.

Hogan
09-19-2005, 03:56 PM
....However given that America is certainly going to be hit by a lot more hurricanes, wouldn't it be prudent to get a system in place that didn't rely on charity?

I'm not even talking about universal health care or a welfare system.

I mean Bush refuses to raise taxes to cope with this disaster, or even a one-off tax that would attack massive profits (as has been done here) which is fair enough I'm not saying yeah or nay, it's your country. But if more of them come along you can't seriously expect people to keep putting their hands in their pockets?

You're the richest country in the world for God's sake.

The pork we have in our budget would be more than enough to pay for any hurrican. Or we can cut the money we give to foreign countries as foreign aid and use that money. Maybe we can cut our UN contribution ? We may be the richest, but money isn't unlimited.

The problem is that this clean up will be the most expensive in our history - all prior hurricans don't even come close. The cost is even higher in that lots of people didn't have insurance, so now we have to pay for it, and will again because they still want to rebuild in that flood plain.

And 'one-off' taxes are never just one-off. They have a habit of staying permanent - look at our income tax.... Supposed to have been temporary, but now permanent. Look at the Alternative Minimum Tax - supposed to have caught the rich people when it was first implemented (LONG time ago), but it was not indexed, so as income rises, more and more middle income people are now being caught by this alternative tax. But because it gives our treasury more and more money, congress won't touch it - they need it for their pork, saying how in the world can we make up that tax income then ?

What are the tax rates in Scotland ?

deepsoup
09-19-2005, 05:24 PM
Or we can cut the money we give to foreign countries as foreign aid and use that money.

It looks like that is already on the cards, unfortunately. (Here's (http://za.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-16T065406Z_01_ALL624866_RTRIDST_0_OZATP-UN-AID-USA-20050916.XML) a link.)

Like most Americans however, you seem to think the foreign aid budget is more than it actually is. Congress has already approved over 60 billion dollars in aid in the wake of Katrina, and it looks like that figure may rise to well over 100 billion.

The entire US foreign aid budget for 2004 was only 19 billion. So even if the US cuts it right back to zero (hardly likely), it isn't going to make that much difference.

(I wonder if cutbacks in US aid may actually be counterproductive though, as the impact on security becomes known: US slashes its aid budget, resentment of the US reaches even greater heights around the world, groups like Al Queda reap the propoganda benefits, and the military find themselves needing even more money to attempt to protect US interests. But I digress.)

I guess cuts in US aid are pretty much inevitable though. And that'll indirectly spread the misery of Katrina far and wide around the globe. I don't suppose we'll be seeing so much of that on the news. The shock of seeing these terrible things happen to American citizens has made Katrina one of the most "newsworthy" events of the 21st century so far. But for many the nations who'll end up paying the price of cuts in the aid budget, people suffering and dying in their thousands from famine, flood and war is just considered "business as usual", pretty sick.

My thoughts are with the survivors of the disaster in the US, but I won't be making a financial donation, I'm afraid. My Euros will be going to those elsewhere in the world who may find themselves being made to pay for Katrina, and who, of all of us, can least afford it.

Sean
x

Hogan
09-19-2005, 05:31 PM
It looks like that is already on the cards, unfortunately. (Here's (http://za.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-16T065406Z_01_ALL624866_RTRIDST_0_OZATP-UN-AID-USA-20050916.XML) a link.)

Like most Americans however, you seem to think the foreign aid budget is more than it actually is. Congress has already approved over 60 billion dollars in aid in the wake of Katrina, and it looks like that figure may rise to well over 100 billion.

The entire US foreign aid budget for 2004 was only 19 billion. So even if the US cuts it right back to zero (hardly likely), it isn't going to make that much difference.
x

Adde that to pork in 2005, and you have $46 billion. [http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/15/news/economy/pork/]
Delay the new medicare drug thing for seniors for a yr, and you have $40 billion or so more, cut 2006 pork (probably another over $20 billion), and it's done and paid for.

giriasis
09-19-2005, 07:17 PM
Ron, this is for you. Here's an example of what South Florida is going through right now with Hurricane Rita.

http://www.nbc6.net/weather/4991406/detail.html

If you go down to the Miami Evacuations you'll see that a mandatory evacuation is called for Zone A, and the areas within those zones are listed.

Ron Tisdale
09-21-2005, 08:35 AM
Hi Anne Marie,

Thanks, say, hope all is ok with you and yours...

Best,
Ron

giriasis
09-21-2005, 12:50 PM
Hi Anne Marie,

Thanks, say, hope all is ok with you and yours...

Best,
Ron


Yes, everything is fine here, although yesterday they closed the government buildings in dade and broward counties. Now, just hope that storm doesn't get any bigger. The anticipation of the storm can be very anxiety ridden for those in "the cone." I've noticed that people are getting bused out this time around and they are allowing people to bring crated pets on buses. Now, THAT'S a first.

mj
09-21-2005, 06:04 PM
Looks like Rita is bad news.

So anyone in its way make sure to take care. Forewarned is forearmed.

Ron Tisdale
11-01-2005, 12:59 PM
Hi Anne Marie, is everything ok down there now? Hope you made it through ok...

Best,
Ron

giriasis
11-02-2005, 10:11 PM
Hey Ron! Thanks for asking. We lost the screen enclosure to our porch and a lot of trees went down in the neighborhood. Everything was a mangled mess. Fortunately we only lost about four tiles off of our roof. Most people with asphalt shingles lost a big part of their roof. The biggest annoyance was getting ice as I had plenty of water. I was without power for about three days, but a lot of people are still without power.

giriasis
11-03-2005, 12:25 PM
Oh and the biggest bummer is that our Winter Camp had to be cancelled (hopefully, just postponed).

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2005, 09:56 AM
Sorry about the winter camp and the damage...but glad you're ok! They are asking about you on the women's list too...I went there to check on you before posting.

Best,
Ron

giriasis
11-04-2005, 12:44 PM
Thanks for asking, Ron. I just thought you'd might tease me over all the unprepared Floridians who didn't fuel up their cars or get enough gas for their generators before the storm. ;) And all the Conchs (Native Florida Keys residents) who didn't evacuate -- about 10-20% only evacuated. ;) My roommate (land lady, really) didn't want to put the plywood up, as she thought it was going to downgrade to a Cat 1 by the time it reached us. And, the god, Max Mayfield kept warning people to prepare for at least a weak Cat 3. And guess what we got? But our house is pretty well-built and survived the storm pretty well, unlike other folks. After getting some bad storms about two days ago more people have had to leave their damaged homes with roofs caving in. So we're starting to get some housing issues down here -- not like we haven't had affordable housing issues before it's just worse now.

Things weren't too bad with FEMA but it doesn't help that Florida's Governor's brother is the President. ;)

But the good side is that I can put "Able to demolish a screen enclosure" on my resume now. ;)

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2005, 03:02 PM
:) I'd never kick you when you are down! ;) That would be cruel and un-necessary punishment! Glad things are looking up. I have to admit that I did think about those posts when this happened...but my momma would slap me upside the head if I took advantage of it!

Best,
Ron

giriasis
11-04-2005, 03:40 PM
We some of the lines was just plain panic -- like omg we need gas! People just went out and getting gas, well, because there was NOTHING else to do other than wait in line for water and ice. I still have gas in my tank when I filled up over a week ago. I never had to wait in those lines. The other part of the problem for the demand for gas was that so many people had generators I think they forgot they needed gas, too. And there was not a shortage of gas, just a shortage of gas stations with electrity or generators that could allow them to pump the gas. The majority of people in Miami-Dade county did not need water, but they lined up for it any way because FEMA was handing it out.

As far as evacuations were concerned, the counties did an excellent job in evacuating mobile home parks. I know in Broward county the sheriff deputies went door to door to convince people to leave and the great majority of them did, and they did hand out little hospital bracelets for identification in case of death. Fortunately, we didn't have many during the storm...although afterwards we'ved had about 24 deaths resulting from carbon monoxide posioning from generators, tree removal, etc.

Neil Mick
08-18-2007, 07:34 PM
Two years' later, and New Orleans still looks like Katrina hit yesterday.

Why? In a word..."greed." That, and no leadership from the Feds.

Watch this inciteful Moyers interview on Katrina Revisited (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08172007/watch.html)

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08172007/profile.html

Also, for a heartfelt and incisive documentary on the factors that caused the disaster, watch Spike Lee's "When the Levees Broke: A Requim in Four Acts. (http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/whentheleveesbroke/)