Aikido Journal [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

Chris Li

09-01-2005, 03:58 PM

That was exactly my point; it is his responsibility. However, sometimes it is those that surround celebrities (them's that try to eek a living out of their existence) that come up with these crackpot ideas, and often, in times where contractually they have to do what the marketing team comes up with. The person (these days, really just a product vehicle) might only have a small input on what the final product may look/smell/taste or be like.

Sure, but they chose to sign those contracts - and it's not as if it would be a first time thing for either of them.

Of course, the only wares you can get from the Takeda or Ueshiba marketing team are peddled by the management team over at Aikido Journal, and if there is a hell they are going to hell because of it.

Well, Sokaku Takeda marketed himself very agressively while he was alive (although there wasn't much merchandising in that era). There was, of course, marketing and merchandising by Morihei Ueshiba as well, even continued today by the Ueshiba family (I don't think that there's anything wrong with that). No energy drinks, but the Aikido neckties at Aikikai Hombu are pretty cheesy :).

However, when it comes to the drink (or maybe the martial artist) I think you might get more good out of the Orange Juice, and certainly a lot less bad.

Orange juice is certainly healthier, my point was simply that the amount of sugar in and of itself wasn't out of the normal range for sweet drinks. Anyway, I'd rather save detailed nutritional breakdowns and discussions of which types of sugar are metabolized how for another thread :).

Best,

Chris

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-01-2005, 04:04 PM

Did Aikido Journal do something bad?

What will their version of Hell look like? :)

Hi Matthew,

As I have been known to say, "...that depends upon both who is asking and who is answering..."

.

Erik

09-01-2005, 07:32 PM

Ya know, ya gotta eat, some of us more than others.

Sanshouaikikai

09-01-2005, 09:13 PM

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 12:04 AM

Well, it's a viewpoint I don't agree with, but some do feel that Aikido Journal operates too much as a business, and not just a source of information. I guess it's because of the product focus that the site has now, combined with how that product focus might seem to reflect and promote only specific views within the aikido community.
<rant>Yeah, well, without a doubt if this thread were over at AJ, it would be mysteriously deleted because questioning the mindset of the owners of the site is a big NO-NO - especially when it relates to anything close to one of their revenue streams! I privately questioned the thread pulling, and I was simply booted off the site by a rather rude, nerdy webmaster, (un hombre sans-juevos, from what I could gather). I don't want to embarrass myself or the owner of the site by posting my thoughts about the private email I received from him which basically said, "Yell, well that is the way it is around here!" followed up with a "I don't want to hear anything more from you..." So if you don't support the party line over there, and you are not one of the silent, unquestioning devotees or their take on Aikido's history, then there simply isn't a place for ya, and that may include a large part of the Aikido Community they pretend to represent. I mean its martial arts man, not "A P.C. Forum - a.k.a. only for those who beat the drum of the AJ money maker..."</rant>

Personally, I am gratefull for the information they provide, I have enjoyed the products I've purchased, I think that hard work deserves a financial reward, and I know there were many years were Stan Pranin and others involved made peanuts. So if they get something back for all those years and all that effort it's fine by me. But that's just my own opinion...others may well feel differently.[/b]
Well, I for one would love to see Aikido Journal operate as a not-for-profit organization. It would make me feel better, as their books and board meeting minutes would be open to public scrutiny. It would go a long way towards silencing the many detractors out there who wonder what their hidden agenda is, and how that agenda has skewed the Aikido world that reads from its web-pages. And before anyone goes off saying, "They are fair and balanced..." Well, hey I say, "Even the fair and balanced guys are about as one-sided and have a particular agenda as one can get. It's like the difference between the NY Times and the NY Post, which forces one to ask oneself, "How can the same news be represented so differently unless the writer has a hidden agenda?"

To me, the ownership of images and videos of O-Sensei, and quite a few other major Aikido personalities just seems "awkward," but hey that's just me - you may feel just the opposite! There is nothing wrong with making money. Some directors of large non-profits make upwards of 300-400K/year, and that aint counting the many perks.

Just the choice to do it as a for-profit venture tells you something about the mindset of those who set it up, and for the negative-minded, I said mindset, not heart, soul, spirit or even intention. Again, if it weren't Aikido, and given that aikido is seeking a holistic approach to humanity, then I would have less issue with it, but once again, that's just me - you may feel just the opposite!

...but alas, I have hijacked the thread, so I will end my comments with regards to things other than ones about the lovely new taste of Lightning Bolt, a product that I am sure Seagal Sensei, or at least OJ, himself spent quite a bit of time developing while former pondered the wonders of Buddha and the latter searched for Nicole's killers!

... Did I actually post this? Oops...!

.

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 12:12 AM

Wow...Mr. Ravens is a communist! You do know, Mr. Raven...that many people also die from Communist regimes as well as Capitalist ones! As for Jesus...I wouldn't mind dying for His sake if I had to. However....Mr. Ravens...everything else you say (except for the Aikido Journal thing...I dunno what that's all about! lol!) I totally, 100% agree with! Right on! lol!

Hey, did you see my "secret Systema tatoo or find my top-secret communist decoder ring? I thought I had that well-hidden in my underwear drawer. So I ask you straight out, Mr. Rodriguez, "What were you doing in my underwear drawer?" and say to you, "Stay outta my drawers, for Pete's sake!"

As for Jesus, you best check your facts... I think the saying goes something like, "He died for you, you live for him..." I do believe the answer to the question, "What possible good would dying for him be?" is entirely another thread...

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Mashu

09-02-2005, 12:14 AM

Chris Li

09-02-2005, 01:07 AM

So if you don't support the party line over there, and you are not one of the silent, unquestioning devotees or their take on Aikido's history, then there simply isn't a place for ya, and that may include a large part of the Aikido Community they pretend to represent. I mean its martial arts man, not "A P.C. Forum - a.k.a. only for those who beat the drum of the AJ money maker..."</rant>

Stan Pranin's been around for a long time, and had a lot of lean years - even now I don't think that anyone would categorize him as "wealthy", in spite of owning the "AJ money maker".

I've certainly questioned various sections of their take on Aikido's history on the AJ boards - never had a problem though...

Well, I for one would love to see Aikido Journal operate as a not-for-profit organization. It would make me feel better, as their books and board meeting minutes would be open to public scrutiny.

Hmm, I'd like Sony to operate as a not-for-profit organization, but I doubt that they'll listen to me :). OTOH, there's nothing to stop you from starting up your own not-for-profit organization devoted to researching and publishing Aikido history.

To me, the ownership of images and videos of O-Sensei, and quite a few other major Aikido personalities just seems "awkward," but hey that's just me - you may feel just the opposite!

So, you would prefer that someone (not yourself) lay out the money for producing and distributing the videos, but that you should be free to copy them as you please? If you feel that way than why aren't you producing and packaging Aikido images and videos out of your own pocket and distributing them under an open-source license?

Just the choice to do it as a for-profit venture tells you something about the mindset of those who set it up, and for the negative-minded, I said mindset, not heart, soul, spirit or even intention. Again, if it weren't Aikido, and given that aikido is seeking a holistic approach to humanity, then I would have less issue with it, but once again, that's just me - you may feel just the opposite!

Morihei Ueshiba participated in quite a few for-profit ventures. Books and film distributed by the founder were sold for-profit while he was alive. In fact, he made a pretty good living off of Aikido. Good enough for kaiso, but not for anybody else?

Best,

Chris

Jiawei

09-02-2005, 03:49 AM

Ron Tisdale

09-02-2005, 11:11 AM

Jun, I think the posts about AJ deserve a thread of their own. Would you object to moving them to a separate thread? I think there are some serious issues to discuss.

On that subject, I actually think the non-profit suggestion is a good one. And I want to make it clear that I have no issues with Stan and his staff making good salaries off of the valuable work that they do. But it would go a long way toward quelling some of the dissent out there.

Shaun, like Chris, I have spoken my mind pretty freely on that site. I've placed notices about seminars of people that Stan is pretty much diametricly opposed to on the site. With no problems what-so-ever. No one has asked me not to post. No one has even suggested that. When I've had complaints, I've posted them. I do however, try to be polite and respectfull of the valuable work they've done archiving, restoring and making available to us the rich legacy of aikido.

All of that material they have was mouldering in basements, attics, etc. until they saw the value of it and began to take care of it. The shihan were dying one by one, with no voice outside of very small circles until Stan made a point of interviewing them. I may not agree 100% with the viewpoints or the way the site was/is run...but man...we've gotta give credit where it is due. We all owe Stan a debt of gratitude. At least we have the information to argue over!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale

09-02-2005, 11:20 AM

Damn! That was fast... ;)

Thanks Jun!

R

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 11:58 AM

Jun,

While I think it fine that you chose to move these posts to a new thread, I have some objection to the name you gave it. Would you mind much changing it to Commercialism - Good or Bad for Aikido or something along that nature?

This is not an issue with one particular website, but the larger issue at hand, that being the apparent control of the archival materials by a group that is also putting out their own version of the history of Aikido. When a group can profit considerably by supporting one opinion versus another, it needs to be questioned. I find it more than problematic that certain martial organizations supported by "opinion" come out generating profits for those putting out the information. This represents a conflict of interest in my opinion.

Thank you.

PS - I do believe that post #5 in this thread should be moved back to the thread as it does not address this issue and speaks soley with regards to the Lightning Bolt Drink. If you agree, then perhaps it could be moved back into that thread...

.

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 02:50 PM

Does a website like that have a big impact on the Aikido world?

I've seen people work the internet to sell themselves and then their wares but does it really make a difference?

It's kinda hard to tell from my vantage point.
On initial reading, I would have to say no. I based that in this particular case on the fact that AJ, a large and popular website, is currently mostly in English (although there is a concerted effort to change this on a daily basis) and it is predominantly read here in America. Of course, I don't have any website statistics to prove that, but any evidence to the contrary would only go towards proving my counter thoughts, which are as follows:

When I think about it and extend the consideration of your question out into the future I find that the answer is a resounding YES! Yes, a website can have a considerable measurable effect on the community which it serves. I have already stated, when you have a group with their own particular bent on the facts take that information and put it out in many of the world's major languages through an easily available media to a targeted audience there is bound to be an astounding effect. Certainly it can't be discounted as a probability.

If we take this basic premise and extend it out in time we can predict a disturbing trend. Metaphorically speaking, (and please allow me the literary latitude) that the actions of the zealot of today are only outdone by the actions of the son of the zealot tomorrow. Okay those are broad strokes. In no way do I mean to paint everyone with the same brush. There are obviously more people who read things on a website with a grain of salt, than who do not. However, there are those who defend the opinions they read on a website, and they will do so to the day they die. Of course, to do so is their right. However, they haven't done any of their own research. It is therefore safe to say that their entire thinking is based upon the words of others - others with agendas and motives not known by reader. It is these people that I refer here to as zealots, and solely in this case, Aikido zealots. That doesn't mean that I don't also see them as real fine people. Just as with friends of mine whose politics I question, they are simply real fine people with whom I happen to disagree.

As we continue to extend this out into the future, we can agree that many of these same individuals are now or will eventually become Aikido instructors. In such a case they will be in positions of authority while holding opinions based upon information they once read on a website that they now have come to believe as aikido fact. They will pass these aikido opinions to their students as aikido facts, and in turn, when these students become teachers they will do the same, and so on down the line until we get unquestionable aikido truth. We have the benefit of being close in time to the life of the Founder. However, one hundred years from now there will not be such a benefit, and so the stories that are carried forward will become canon, true or not. I have already observed many irrational cases of this, but that is not what this thread is about, so I will leave that for another time.

It is also predictable that many of these teachers or those that will become teachers will travel, move and settle in other countries, thus seeding the process in other countries. There are already many instructors from the United States that travel extensively in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and (gasp) even Japan.

I think it fair that one should not just criticize, as that is the easy part and does not (necessarily) take substantial thinking, merely an emotional verbal regurgitation. I have proposed that with Aikido Journal that they step up and step out from behind the controversy of what some would say is an apparent biased stating of the history of Aikido, one based partially on the economic recovery possible by supporting one group over another. I am not the first, nor the only one to say this.

I offer that by becoming a non-profit organization where there is no private ownership of the archival and documentary materials of the Founder and his direct Uchi-Deshi that the Aikido community would be better served. That does not take away who gets the credit for bringing these materials to light. It also does not take away the possibility of those same individuals being paid in some capacity to manage the materials. What it does is give the process some oversight by a board of directors who answer to a higher authority, so to speak. More importantly it would give a level of transparency so that the Aikido community can feel confident that what they are seeing, reading, etc. is not being manipulated in any way. I envision a Museum where people can go and see these materials for themselves. They would have the opportunity to examine these materials with their own eyes and make up their own minds as to what to think. I believe that these materials should be kept separate from the academics whose theories put forth their own opinions about how we should view these materials, academics that have a stake in publishing their findings in the for-profit world. Not that those theories are unimportant in their own right, just that they should be kept separate.

In any case these are just my thoughts, opinions and ideas on the matter. Mashu since you asked the question what are your thoughts on the matter?

.

crbateman

09-02-2005, 03:16 PM

You guys have to know that Stan Pranin has a family to support, and Aikido is his livelihood. He has dedicated himself for many years accumulating material on Aikido that would be long dead without him. Much of it he gives away for free in the archives and in the day to day operation of the website (the maintenance of which, in and of itself, costs good money), but he does have to sell some DVD's once in a while to pay the bills. And you must admit, there is no better quality material to be found anywhere. His website is one of the primary hangouts of Aikido people, who don't represent an enormous market in the first place. Where else would you expect Stan to market his products? He is as class an act as you're likely to find, and I think some of us need to reassess his contribution to our art, and cut the guy some slack.

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 03:38 PM

I've certainly questioned various sections of their take on Aikido's history on the AJ boards - never had a problem though...
Questions do not necessarily indicate problems, but they do not exclude them either. You may feel more or less strongly with regards to what to do about it, but you have some questions, nonetheless.
Hmm, I'd like Sony to operate as a not-for-profit organization, but I doubt that they'll listen to me :). OTOH, there's nothing to stop you from starting up your own not-for-profit organization devoted to researching and publishing Aikido history.
Two separate issues. Your first comment you obviously find sillya and not realistic. It also does not relate to the specifics of the thread. However, in an attempt to address your comment I will say that Sony is a public company, actually owned by a loose consortium of its shareholders. This means that there is oversight, accountability and transparency; along with outside organizations that will prosecute should there be any provable improprieties. With regards to your second comment, I already have started a non-profit to which I contribute quite a bit of time, get paid no salary and donated large sums of money compared to my salary. However, my goal is not to publish anything, per se, but rather give people an opportunity to experience Aikido and other Asian cultural pursuits who might not otherwise be able to do so. However, even if I, or anyone else did decide to take you up on your offer, that would not amend what I see is the issue with a large amount of materials that should be made part of the Aikido communities heritage being owned by one group with their own particular agenda.
So, you would prefer that someone (not yourself) lay out the money for producing and distributing the videos, but that you should be free to copy them as you please?
Chris, I never said that, or anything that could be construed as such. As I have said before, if you have something to say to me, feel free to do so, publicly or in private. To address the issue though, non-profits have ways to cover production expenses, salaries, overhead, etc. Believe you me, should Aikido Journal voluntarily choose to move to a non-profit model, I would be one of the first to volunteer my time and donate my money. When they requested individuals to transpose the old PDF files into text files, I not only volunteered to do so, but with the ones that were Interviews with Seiseki Abe Sensei, I offered to go back an revisit them with him to do follow ups. Yeah, that would have been in Japan, and at my own expense.
If you feel that way than why aren't you producing and packaging Aikido images and videos out of your own pocket and distributing them under an open-source license?
Again, I never said that this is the way I see to rectify the problem over at Aikido Journal. However, addressing the issue, what might I have that anyone would really want to see, free or otherwise?
Morihei Ueshiba participated in quite a few for-profit ventures. Books and film distributed by the founder were sold for-profit while he was alive. In fact, he made a pretty good living off of Aikido. Good enough for kaiso, but not for anybody else?
Of course anyone should be able to "sell themselves" towards whatever gain or goal that they see fit. But this is not really what is going on, is it? After all, the Founder didn't exactly give his permission for anyone to sell 29 minute videos of himself for $49.95, did he? WELL DID HE? Even so, that doesn't mean that a museum who housed the archived materials wouldn't do the same thing. As a matter of fact, I am sure that they would. However, they would use the money to create multimedia displays that one could go and see for themselves for a small donation in a place that would be the metaphoric Mecca of Aikido. Perhaps it would take someone outside of Japan to create something so powerful that it would encourage the Ueshiba Family and the Aikikai to open up their own archives of long-hidden or questionable material to the public. I think it would do much to create a more human image of the Founder and let people do their own research with all of the facts instead of only the ones they want us to know.

In closing and in an effort to raise the level of the thread, I think it important that we don't fall victim to any emotions that may arise when we discuss issues of hidden agendas. Also, that we don't shift the focus merely to who is right and who is wrong. This will help ensure that we may have a straight forward discussion of this very important issue. The future of Aikido is at stake, whether we believe it or not.

.

Chris Li

09-02-2005, 04:55 PM

Two separate issues. Your first comment you obviously find sillya and not realistic. It also does not relate to the specifics of the thread.

Sure it does. That is, my point was that there's nothing wrong with a company (public or private) operating for profit, and if I don't like their approach to business then I'm free to start up my own organization (public, private, or non-profit) and compete in the marketplace like everybody else.

Of course anyone should be able to "sell themselves" towards whatever gain or goal that they see fit. But this is not really what is going on, is it? After all, the Founder didn't exactly give his permission for anyone to sell 29 minute videos of himself for $49.95, did he? WELL DID HE?

Well, videos weren't around at the time, but he (or his son) certainly gave permission for certain materials to be sold for profit while he was alive, so I guess that the answer would be "yes". Are you implying that Aikido Journal is stealing copyrighted material?

Best,

Chris

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 05:07 PM

Clark, thanks for participating in the thread. I would like to address each one of your comments in hopes of starting a larger dialogue.
You guys have to know that Stan Pranin has a family to support
Well, we all do. This is not even part of the issue. Mentioning it here does nothing to discuss creating a separation of archival materials from individuals who have interests of a academic/economic (where one is tied to the other) nature.
...and Aikido is his livelihood.
It is? I thought making money off of others who do aikido is his livelihood. I don't have a problem with the latter, so again, that is not the issue being discussed here.
He has dedicated himself for many years accumulating material on Aikido that would be long dead without him.
Yes he has. No one is discussing taking any credit away from anyone deserving any credit. This is an issue of preservation over perversion.
Much of it he gives away for free in the archives and in the day to day operation of the website (the maintenance of which, in and of itself, costs good money)
The costs associated with managing a website are minimal, especially these days where co-location costs are ridiculously minimal, and there are always younger and more talented kids coming up who will manage, update and produce a better site - FOR FREE just to have a relevant headline item at the top of their resume. He could easily hire college interns, as do many companies as another example. However, if he simply hawked his own products (where he is the person in the video) or gave reasonable access for others to hawk theirs (for a small fee or percentage) again, this would be a better scenario that would do well to reduce the apparent conflict of interest that abounds there.
but he does have to sell some DVD's once in a while to pay the bills. And you must admit, there is no better quality material to be found anywhere.
Given the apparent success of the misnamed Aiki-Expo (should be Aikido Journal Expo) if he simply focused on producing his breakthrough events, I am sure he could profit considerably, all without the controversy raised by his support of particular individuals, groups and organizations over others.
His website is one of the primary hangouts of Aikido people, who don't represent an enormous market in the first place.
I do believe that many people purchase products available there without participating in the forums or reading the opinionated materials put forth by the site owner or his cronies - not that all who post blogs there are cronies, but there is a undeniable connection between (emotionally) supported bloggers and the economic benefit that comes along with it.
Where else would you expect Stan to market his products?
This is an effort to discern proper ownership of the archival materials of the Founder and his direct disciples. It is clear that there is current ownership. However whether the current situation is the best possible scenario is the question being discussed in the thread.
He is as class an act as you're likely to find, and I think some of us need to reassess his contribution to our art, and cut the guy some slack.
The same could be said of the current and former president of the United States, but it isn't, is it? No one gets slack because while on the face of things there may be an air of class, or what have you. However, dig a bit deeper and you will always find a mélange of motivations that could be debated till the cows come home, so again, this is not a personal assassination of an individual, but a conversation of how possibly to better manage the important job that he took on with the best of intentions.

Clark, I would be interested in knowing what you see as the best case scenario for creating and managing a permanent and public archive where Aikidoka and prospective or interested parties would be able to go and view all the available materials - a place unencumbered by the opinions of academics and the like, whether they be with or without financial motivations.

.

Mashu

09-02-2005, 05:33 PM

In any case these are just my thoughts, opinions and ideas on the matter. Mashu since you asked the question what are your thoughts on the matter?

Me? :)

Well, as I said before it is hard for me to tell how important any on-line organization really is. I have seen many times that information on sites like Aikido Journal, Aikido FAQ, and others are used as references to support the arguments of people who put forth their views on Aikido. For those people and those that read their opinions the information on those sites are probably where their inquiry stops. So in theory those sites that put out info on Aikido and it's particulars could have a great impact like you said.

In reading other types of history I often see that erroneous things develop a life of their own and thrive for a long time. This further disconnects people from being able to understand what happened and why things are why they are. So I do appreciate why you would like to see various organizations open their archives so everyone can have the opportunity to correct their misinterpretations and fill in whatever areas are blank for them. Maybe this would save Aikido from being like a dead religion with empty rituals, lost practices, and passive believers.

As far as certain people giving over the materials that they have taken the time and expense to accumulate to some sort of open not-for-profit organization I don't know that that is all that fair or useful. In order to try to better understand certain things I have had to search out certain materials that are no longer available and pay for them as well as travel to get them in some cases. I appreciate these things quite a bit more than some material I can just buy at a store or get from the library. The searching itself was a good thing. Throwing things like that out for free to the public might rob them of certain experiences. It's not like there are hordes of Aikido people surrounding the Aikikai foundation HQ or Aikido Journal's offices with torches trying to force their way through barricades to get at those materials anyway.

If people are withholding things in their private collections and are distorting the facts then others should openly challenge them. With the technology available today it's pretty easy to do. If you build enough pressure they will have to do something and they will either have to reveal their source material or run away.

Somethings to think about anyway. Thanks. :)

Rupert Atkinson

09-02-2005, 06:16 PM

I have always taught Aikido for free but that is because I have always had a job. I am not professional in the Aikido business sense. But if I decided to make a living through Aikido, then I would have to becoime professional to earn enough to survive. There is nothing wrong with earning money in Aikido or any art. Go to Japan or Korea and you'll see that is what most are doing. I don't seee AJ as commercialist - I see it as a source of good info and Aikido related products. I paid the subscription and enjoy the articles. It's normal - get over it.

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 06:18 PM

Sure it does. That is, my point was that there's nothing wrong with a company (public or private) operating for profit, and if I don't like their approach to business then I'm free to start up my own organization (public, private, or non-profit) and compete in the marketplace like everybody else.
Chris, I know I am not the first one to tell you this, but there is no competition in O-Sensei's Aikido... knowing that, I am not the least bit interested in competing with anyone, nor in others competing, nor promoting competition at all. For me that would defeat the promise of and what is available through Aikido. That very fact is what motivated me to begin this inquiry in the first place.

What this is about is the best way to preserve and make these limited and precious commodities available to the Aikido community as a whole, along with who should be, or how best to select a caretaker for these things. I believe that if there was an independent, unbiased group (unfortunately, due to their own potential conflict of interest, one outside of the Aikikai) that there would be motivation for people to come out of the woodwork and donate their materials to create a living legacy accessible to everyone, regardless of whether they could afford it or not.

Since you obviously have a problem with me I will take myself out of the discussion of the issue and ask "Do you see a problem with the idea of creating a permanent, publicly accessible and publicly controlled repository whose directorship is charged with establishing an unbiased center for the benefit of the Aikido community of today and future generations? If you do have a problem with it, please state what it is, and if so, to also take the time to state what your ideas are and how they are both an improvement on mine and the current situation that forces this conversation to come up in the first place.
Well, videos weren't around at the time, but he (or his son) certainly gave permission for certain materials to be sold for profit while he was alive, so I guess that the answer would be "yes". Are you implying that Aikido Journal is stealing copyrighted material?
Chris, I think it pretty clear by now that I don't mince words. I am clear and straight to the point, although I do sometimes soften my words in an attempt not to offend. If I wanted to imply stealing, I would have said stealing, cut and dry, as I did with those responsible for stealing my copyrighted logo. Of course, I was banned for asking on Aikido Journal if that was okay with others in the Aikido community, but that is only a peripheral issue, and not the main thrust of this thread.

As for your implication, I can't possibly know who gave permission, nor the reasons why permission was given, nor the circumstances under which it was given, nor the monetary arrangements, if any between the parties. I am very interested in knowing these things, but alas, try asking and see where you get. If you do get anywhere, please let us know. If you believe, as do I, that you wouldn't get very far, then at least step up and give us that much by reporting this back to the thread.

I am trying to encourage an emotionally free discussion of how best to serve the future of the Aikido community. If you would like to talk about that, I encourage you to keep posting. If you are merely interested in posting "implications" in the form of questions rather than discuss the need for, or the benefit of an Aikido Museum (for lack of a better name), then I kindly request you refrain from stoking the emotional fires, so to speak. Of course, you could do both, and even be a bit sarcastic and that would be fine by me, but to do the former without the latter is just not appropriate given the seriousness of the subject matter.

In any case your participation has moved the thread forward, for which I do offer my sincere thanks.

.

Sanshouaikikai

09-02-2005, 06:47 PM

Hey, did you see my "secret Systema tatoo or find my top-secret communist decoder ring? I thought I had that well-hidden in my underwear drawer. So I ask you straight out, Mr. Rodriguez, "What were you doing in my underwear drawer?" and say to you, "Stay outta my drawers, for Pete's sake!"

As for Jesus, you best check your facts... I think the saying goes something like, "He died for you, you live for him..." I do believe the answer to the question, "What possible good would dying for him be?" is entirely another thread...

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What...the facts about Jesus that you got from the Da Vinci Code!? LOLOLOL!!! Oh no...I'm sorry...better yet...the Jesus Seminar! I got my facts about The Lord pretty well...It's you whom I'm concerned about. As for Communism...I'm not a communist anymore. However...I still lean just a tad bit socialist at times on economic issues...but other than that...I'm one crazy conservative and proud of it! However....glad to hear you're honest about being a comrade...I thought I used to be the only one when I was truly one...but...I dunno...you just can't make people share if they don't want to, you know?

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-02-2005, 07:18 PM

Mr. Atkinson,

Thank you for your participation in the thread. As is typical, my comments follow yours.

I have always taught Aikido for free but that is because I have always had a job. I am not professional in the Aikido business sense. But if I decided to make a living through Aikido, then I would have to becoime professional to earn enough to survive. There is nothing wrong with earning money in Aikido or any art. Go to Japan or Korea and you'll see that is what most are doing.
I, too, have taught Aikido for free, have traveled to Japan and other places to see how Aikido is being shared, and note here that my own personal aikido teacher, as well as several of my kohai have opened for-profit dojos. This thread is not a discussion of making money from teaching martial arts, nor a condemnation of anyone doing so. Please take a moment to read the more recent posts and if you like comment on the establishment of an Aikido Museum and the encouragement of those, like Aikido Journal, to donate the materials that document the Founder and his direct disciples.
I don't seee AJ as commercialist - I see it as a source of good info and Aikido related products. I paid the subscription and enjoy the articles. It's normal - get over it.
Okay, so you don't see. Got it. Would you agree or disagree that there may be some potential conflict of interest where they openenly or otherwise support particular teachers, groups or organizations, and then market materials from those very groups just after they are pronounced worthy of such promotion by the site owners?

As for getting over it... Get over what? Care to be specific?

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Chris Li

09-02-2005, 07:26 PM

Chris, I know I am not the first one to tell you this, but there is no competition in O-Sensei's Aikido... knowing that, I am not the least bit interested in competing with anyone, nor in others competing, nor promoting competition at all. For me that would defeat the promise of and what is available through Aikido. That very fact is what motivated me to begin this inquiry in the first place.

Well ok, then you're free to "participate" in the marketplace, if that wording is more acceptable.

What this is about is the best way to preserve and make these limited and precious commodities available to the Aikido community as a whole, along with who should be, or how best to select a caretaker for these things. I believe that if there was an independent, unbiased group (unfortunately, due to their own potential conflict of interest, one outside of the Aikikai) that there would be motivation for people to come out of the woodwork and donate their materials to create a living legacy accessible to everyone, regardless of whether they could afford it or not..

You'll never get any group that's completely independent and unbiased, but one of my points was that there is nothing to stop anyone from forming such a group if they so wish.

Since you obviously have a problem with me I will take myself out of the discussion of the issue and ask "Do you see a problem with the idea of creating a permanent, publicly accessible and publicly controlled repository whose directorship is charged with establishing an unbiased center for the benefit of the Aikido community of today and future generations? If you do have a problem with it, please state what it is, and if so, to also take the time to state what your ideas are and how they are both an improvement on mine and the current situation that forces this conversation to come up in the first place.

As above, no (and I've never said that there was). But there's no reason why commercial groups can't exist as well (and vice-versa).

Chris, I think it pretty clear by now that I don't mince words. I am clear and straight to the point, although I do sometimes soften my words in an attempt not to offend. If I wanted to imply stealing, I would have said stealing, cut and dry, as I did with those responsible for stealing my copyrighted logo. Of course, I was banned for asking on Aikido Journal if that was okay with others in the Aikido community, but that is only a peripheral issue, and not the main thrust of this thread.

As for your implication, I can't possibly know who gave permission, nor the reasons why permission was given, nor the circumstances under which it was given, nor the monetary arrangements, if any between the parties. I am very interested in knowing these things, but alas, try asking and see where you get. If you do get anywhere, please let us know. If you believe, as do I, that you wouldn't get very far, then at least step up and give us that much by reporting this back to the thread.

It wasn't an implication, it was a question. It's without question, historically, that Morihei Ueshiba participated in commercial ventures, and he or his representatives gave exclusive and non-exclusive permission to others for commercial ventures. Your statement implied not only that he didn't give permission, but that he woudn't have, which seems hard to prove to me, seeing that the historical record is so clear.

Best,

Chris

senshincenter

09-02-2005, 10:07 PM

Hi All,

I think Shaun has already said several times that he is not referring to the right or need to make money, etc. If I may Shaun, I think Shaun is referring to an integrity issue of sorts and of how such issues might relate to the overall good of everyone involved. Or at least this is the first issue, if I understand what he is saying correctly, that leads to all the other issues that should probably concern us.

However, or regardless of what else might be involved, I just do not see the integrity issue here. Is there some evidence of this historical bias or is this just the philosophical bias that goes with every subjective position? Is there some evidence of a different history that AJ is trying to hide or keep silent about for the purposes of selling its goods? Is such a history there to be seen in their archives, seen by all if they would simply get out of the way? That is a quite a charge, and that is quite a different charge from saying that every position comes from a particular point of view. Indeed, the former charge would indeed lead others astray, and most likely be very determined by less than noble motivations (e.g. financial), and thus would indeed be something that could be solved by the suggestions you are making. However, the latter problem is not only not something that can be solved by having free access (since every position would be from a particular point of view but objectivity would not be anything to be held above it all -- as in some aspects of the French press for example), it might not even be a problem at all. In addition, it certainly cannot lead to the things you are suggesting since the market has its own checks and balances and also because there are other resources out there -- which AJ does not own and which are equally relative to Aikido history.

I guess that is what I would need to see an example of: An example of a history that is found within the sources AJ has at its disposal but that AJ seeks to hide from us (deliberately or as a result of its financial pursuits) AND that cannot be gleamed by any other collection of sources found outside of AJ. Is there such a thing? If so, you may be right. If this is not so, this may just be a kind of "witch hunt" -- where everything is right but for the first premise (which everything else happens to be grounded upon).

Thanks in advance for any reply.

Kindest regards,
dmv

crbateman

09-03-2005, 02:39 AM

Clark, I would be interested in knowing what you see as the best case scenario for creating and managing a permanent and public archive where Aikidoka and prospective or interested parties would be able to go and view all the available materials - a place unencumbered by the opinions of academics and the like, whether they be with or without financial motivations.
Shawn, this is a very noble aspiration. But, if it's so darned easy, why don't you do it? I'll tell you why. Because you are far too intelligent to spend a lifetime and a swimming pool full of sweat gathering all the history and information you can find on a particular subject, and then just giving it away in anonymity to everyone without so much as a whisper about what your opinions are. The place you are describing above is called a "library", and libraries cannot and do not support themselves. You speak of a place "unencumbered by the opinions of academics". It's those very opinions that give rise to thought and further learning. That's why I go there.

As for "cronies", I have seen Stan Pranin reach out to many individuals who both share and oppose his personal opinions, because he felt they had something substantive to say about the aiki arts. I have also seen representatives of so many different Aikido systems given a fair forum. I have seen senior instructors of Yoshinkan, Aikikai, Iwama, and countless other styles brought together to teach side-by-side in the spirit of harmony at the Aiki Expos. I have seen discussions online with Ki Society people, and unbiased coverage of Tohei Sensei and his considerable history and influence in Aikido; that same history that some would seek to have stricken from the official record.

Despite the inevitable, and often mean-spirited, criticism that Stan gets about it, I have seen "newcomers" and "unknowns" in the Aikido world given a fair opportunity to prove themselves on center stage, much the same as Johnny Carson would give time on his show for unknown comics to display their talents. Stan tries to speak to the future of Aikido, but without losing sight of the past.

If I understand correctly, you say that he is entitled to his opinion, as are we all, and that he is entitled to earn a living, which also goes without saying, but that he should not do both in the same place. Why not? If you don't want to hear his opinion, go elsewhere. And if you aren't interested in his merchandise, do likewise. What I see here is kind of like a person who goes into a store, sits in the middle of the floor, complains about the product selection, and the outfit the shopkeeper is wearing, all the while posturing about having the right to occupy that particular spot on the floor. I hope you have better things to do, and I KNOW you have more deserving people to criticize than Stan Pranin. I have learned much from him. I don't regret it. I'm out.

senshincenter

09-03-2005, 11:09 AM

Another point to consider over financial matters is that AJ actually allows many other folks to advertise their goods there - folks that definitely have their own take on things but that may meet the Journal's view of history in some kind of objectivity (which is different from a conspiracy to deceive). The last two books I got on Aikido, by Shioda and Sunadomari, came to my attention through the Journal. This has to be considered along side works that come to our attention via the book review blogs, etc. It's very hard to paint the Journal as some sort of "corporation" that confuses folks in order to sell its goods. You don't see any corporations out there acting as a platform for the goods of other folks - especially if such a thing is supposed to support their monopoly over information.

I have a feeling, one that is supported by experience, that if someone could come up with a more accurate history (with the support of reliable sources, etc.), the Journal would adopt it as its own position. This is not a problem for it. Why? Because the Journal's main interest is to supply as accurate a historical interpretation (as unbiased) as possible. For example, once, when I first heard of the Journal's encyclopedia, and Stan didn't know me from Adam, I wrote to him to correct something he had written down under T.K. Chiba's entry (I was training under him at that time). He took a couple of days, verified what I was saying, and then asked if I would be kind enough to write the entry for him. I have a feeling that the Journal's historical interpretations are actually made up of many folks' own interpretations (as long as they can be verified historically). As I said before, the Journal is more a hub for information than any kind of real platform of authority. With something like that, in my opinion, one is going to need some very good reasons, with some very real evidence underlying it, to feel that support (moral, financial, service, etc.) is not warranted.

It's like this forum as well - we know what it is, we know what it does, we know it takes money to run, we should all be supporting this forum with our membership. Yet, a lot of folks don't have stars by their names. For me, it's hard to figure out why?

SeiserL

09-03-2005, 04:40 PM

IMHO, everyone has their own idea as to what is right for Aikido. Everyone has a right to their own idea.

If I personally agree with you, I might just think you are right and good. if I don't personally agree with you, I might just think you are wrong and bad.

I personally don't agree with everything that just about anybody does, but its their right, I just don't agree and it doesn't mean that anything or anyone is right or wrong, good or bad.

Personally, I don't think Stan makes enough for all he does for Aikido. I have gladly paid his (IMHO) reasonable prices for a look at history I can find nowhere else. Deepest compliments, appreciation, and gratitude.

Between Aikido Journal and the Aiki Web here, I have learned a lot and met a lot of pretty great people.

If they are all going to Aikido-hell, then that's where the best training will be, and count me in.

crbateman

09-03-2005, 09:12 PM

If they are all going to Aikido-hell, then that's where the best training will be, and count me in.Lynn-san, I'll be there with most of my friends... We'll be glad to see you! :)

09-04-2005, 10:24 AM

AJ is a valuable resource for the community.

However at times (when Expos are due) it is far too commercial and the staff become too aggressive.

crbateman

09-04-2005, 04:29 PM

However at times (when Expos are due) it is far too commercial and the staff become too aggressive.I can understand how you might feel that way, but you might not realize the very high cost (most of which must be paid in advance) of putting on such an event. A bad turnout could be financially disastrous. I think if you had so much riding on speculation, you, too, might become more "aggressive". I know I would. And perhaps "aggressive" is not the best choice of words. Spammers are aggressive, because they come after you and invade your privacy. AJ simply promotes via their website, which is perfectly within their rights.

SeiserL

09-04-2005, 10:13 PM

However at times (when Expos are due) it is far too commercial and the staff become too aggressive.

Having had the privilege of attending all three Expos, IMHO they are not "too" commercial or aggressive. When you have a great product, and you are not making much of a profit off it, you want the world to know and share in it.

No one that I know of offers us more than the Journal, lets just be grateful.

crbateman

09-05-2005, 01:27 AM

No one that I know of offers us more than the Journal, lets just be grateful.Well said, Lynn-san!

Dan Rubin

09-05-2005, 12:39 PM

A couple of years ago, on 12/10/2003, Shaun Ravens wrote (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4784):

Having participated in that other thread, I am amazed, and quit disappointed that it was deleted. Of course, without knowing Jun's reasoning, we can only speculate if the end result is censorship, or fair play. I agree with both Mr. Goldsbury & Mr. Fairbanks. I did not see that anyone was overtly rude, or even moderately hostile. I happened to be the target of some sentiments that I felt were off the mark, and as a result of someone posting comments about me in a public forum based on something I wrote to them via private e-mail, requested that they remove their comments. I don't like being lectured in condescending tones by persons who I have not given that type of permission. It is tantamount to walking past the front door of a dojo and someone coming out and telling you how unconscious you were to not come in and bow to their kamiza...

In any case, I would certainly like to know Jun's thinking. Quite honestly, we should as a group demand it. I am one for moving my posting habits, and more importatnly my borwsing habits away from this site over to one of the other two sites, and to continue to refrain from posting here until I can be assured that arbitrary censorship without any sign of sense of responsibility to the group as a whole on the part of the moderator(s) is not going to be the norm.

WHO'S WITH ME?

******

On 9/1/2005 Shaun Ravens wrote (in the current thread):

<rant>Yeah, well, without a doubt if this thread were over at AJ, it would be mysteriously deleted because questioning the mindset of the owners of the site is a big NO-NO - especially when it relates to anything close to one of their revenue streams! I privately questioned the thread pulling, and I was simply booted off the site by a rather rude, nerdy webmaster, (un hombre sans-juevos, from what I could gather). I don't want to embarrass myself or the owner of the site by posting my thoughts about the private email I received from him which basically said, "Yell, well that is the way it is around here!" followed up with a "I don't want to hear anything more from you..." So if you don't support the party line over there, and you are not one of the silent, unquestioning devotees or their take on Aikido's history, then there simply isn't a place for ya, and that may include a large part of the Aikido Community they pretend to represent. I mean its martial arts man, not "A P.C. Forum - a.k.a. only for those who beat the drum of the AJ money maker..."</rant>

***
This comparison has not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. It is offerred only for its entertainment value.
:)

crbateman

09-05-2005, 05:04 PM

Great stuff, Dan! You made a terrific point without yourself saying a word!

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-05-2005, 05:28 PM

[I]This comparison has not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. It is offerred only for its entertainment value.
:)

Mr Rubin,

While I do not know you, or the source of your own comedic sense, I wanted to request an immediate stop to your style of post in this particular thread. You are free to accept my request or not. Of course you are also free to comment on the subject, which in your last post you chose not to do. Perhaps next time, in case you have a question or better yet a valid point, please be more direct so as to add something if you are able.

Since you made the comparison in some effort to point out some error, favoritism or hypocrisy on my part I will address it.

The two cases you quote are completely different. In one case, the one on this site, the thread was deleted because people attacked a well respected teacher, one who in the end proved that he couldn't defend the ground from which he attacked others. There was no real merit to the thread in an of itself, however it was a testament to the ode, "Don't dish it out if you can't take it" It had nothing to do with money or a potential long term revenue stream in the least. I am sure if asked Jun would provide evidence of private correspondence with individuals who would have been effected by the removal of the thread. I have received several polite private emails from Jun who always warns first, giving intelligent reasons for his warning along with a polite request to move the thread in a more positive direction - with an occasional suggestion on how to do so, long before there is any removal.

This was not the case on the other site. And, as I pointed out, on the other site, they simply don't care if you like it or not, and they are quite vocal to let you know it. Also that is the least of the passive-aggressive activity that is sponsored there from the top down, as it gets much worse on many levels. However, that is not the thrust of this thread.

The point of this thread, seemingly lost on the Stanley Pranin's Aikido Journal Cheerleaders is not about this site versus that site, or what have you. It is about the possibility for creating an O-Sensei Museum, an actual living legacy to O-Sensei's efforts that would benefit the Aikido community indefinitely. There is an issue, which I contend that Stanley Pranin could have taken that route, and chose not to. That of course is his right. He could have and didn't. Irregardless of what Mr. Batemann or Dr. Seiser have pointed out, the fact that the world has benefited by what Mr. Pranin has done thus far - a fact that I don't disagree with, that it pales in comparison to what he could have created as a permanent legacy to both O-Sensei's efforts and his own efforts to bring them to light if he had chosen to do so in the first place. This is not a criticism of him as a person, only a conversation by which some of us can ferret out the possibility of rising to the next level. Maybe Stanley Pranin didn't think of it. Maybe he couldn't do it at the time. However things have come a long way since he began his quest so many decades ago. Times have changed.

I want to say that I have been to every Aiki-Expo, purchased both video tapes and books from Aikido Journal and have the Aikido Journal site as one of the few Aikido sources listed on my links page on our website. At the last Expo, I and all of my students went to Stan and personally thanked him for giving us a great and unique opportunity to train with so many great teachers - and this time just outside of Los Angeles. We honor and give thanks where it is due. However we look to see where things can be improved when they can - not holding on to the idea that just because it was done a certain way that it is the best way, only way or that it is now unable to be changed for the betterment of the future of Aikido.

By the way...my suggestion, and that is really what it amounts to, didn't preclude a for-profit venture in the form of Aikido Journal, selling Aikido Journal related material, merely a separation between the archival materials related to O-Sensei & his original Deshi and the academic posturing and for-profit efforts of today. That is all. If you think I pulled this idea out of my hat, or wherever... I did not. I actually got it from Abe Sensei...
.
..
...
....?

So sorry.

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SeiserL

09-05-2005, 05:40 PM

I look forward to the materials, museums, and events that hopefully others are planning with their own efforts, times, and resources to fill what they see as as voids in the Aikido world.

Please place me on your mailing list.

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-05-2005, 05:52 PM

Great stuff, Dan! You made a terrific point without yourself saying a word!

Hi Clark,

Really… and what point was that? Might it be that he doesn't have any thoughts on the point of the thread? Or is it that he would rather not let anyone know he is one among those who has a double-secret membership in the club that gives out a secret, stick on AJ tattoo, a paper megaphone and set of drab purple and beet red pom-poms to all of its members? Yeah, anything is possible, I guess.

I wanted to wait and see who would come out and cheer for Stanley and Aikido Journal, and wouldn't you know it, it turns out it is several "featured authors" from Aikido Journal. Fair enough. I expected that. However, your comments and support of Stan's efforts and AJ's success notwithstanding, I ask, "Is it the best that we can do?" I come up with a no, hence the point of the thread. If all you can do is say, "Yeah!" with or without a shake of the pom-poms, I say to you the following:
"Great!" "We got it." "It is duly noted."
and
We'll be sure to put a check in the column representing your vote that we can't do any better for the future of Aikido."

Cheerleaders and their cheering aside, is there anyone else that would like to discuss the positive aspect of establishing an O-Sensei Museum in an effort of creating a permanent, publicly available archive as a living legacy of the efforts of O-Sensei & his original deshi. If not, what the heck are all you non-thinking people going to do when gas hits $5.00 a gallon? What? What did he say? I know, I know, it will never go that high.... Sure, and it was never going to hit $2.00, $3.00 or $4.00, either, just like we can't do anything better for the future of the Aikido community. What?

.

mathewjgano

09-05-2005, 07:26 PM

...If we take this basic premise and extend it out in time we can predict a disturbing trend. Metaphorically speaking, (and please allow me the literary latitude) that the actions of the zealot of today are only outdone by the actions of the son of the zealot tomorrow. Okay those are broad strokes..

Without knowing many specifics I'd like to express my thinking about this idea you articulated here. Basing any macro pattern upon a relatively small portion always creates hyperbole. And while it is highly possible that any idea will get taken to extream and perhaps be given an undo/disproportional voice, thus misrepresenting the central truth(s) involved, I don't think hyperbolic rhetoric ever lasts very long. It is by nature highly unstable...besides, regarding history, it's never as important as the present. In fact, I tend to treat all history as rather unimportant aside from being a parable from which to learn behavior principles. History and its recollection is never as 20/20 as people like to think it is. I'd submit the reason the NYPost and Times have such dramatically different views is less based upon hidden agenda and more on the unique processes that go into human perception. I don't want to make it sound like we're all God's innocent chil''en, but I'd say that is mostly true rather than less so.
In regards to commercialization (keeping in mind that we're a capitalistic society), i tend to be very skeptical of anyone trying to sell anything (almost as much as those who just give things away ;) ). I know corporate history too well not to. However, my only solution to the problem of over-commercialization is to lead by example and make efforts where I can to return the emphasis on true value. In our case the true value lies in the principle of aiki, the actual meeting and harmonization/reconciliation of energy/work. We can never force people to behave in any given way, even if it is in fact superior.
Ok I'm getting pedantic and a bit tangential like usual, but after reading several of the earlier posts in this thread one thing keeps occuring to me: Aikido is never found online, nor is it ever found in verbal articulations. It's found on the mat via the sharing of well-intentioned and sincere wills. In short: I don't think the expressions of any web-site matter a hill of beans in comparison to that.
Hmmm, now i want to check out AJ just to see what the hubbub is all about.
Take care,
Matt

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-05-2005, 08:45 PM

Without knowing many specifics I'd like to express my thinking about this idea you articulated here. Basing any macro pattern upon a relatively small portion always creates hyperbole. And while it is highly possible that any idea will get taken to extream and perhaps be given an undo/disproportional voice, thus misrepresenting the central truth(s) involved, I don't think hyperbolic rhetoric ever lasts very long. It is by nature highly unstable...besides, regarding history, it's never as important as the present. In fact, I tend to treat all history as rather unimportant aside from being a parable from which to learn behavior principles. History and its recollection is never as 20/20 as people like to think it is. I'd submit the reason the NYPost and Times have such dramatically different views is less based upon hidden agenda and more on the unique processes that go into human perception. I don't want to make it sound like we're all God's innocent chil''en, but I'd say that is mostly true rather than less so.
In regards to commercialization (keeping in mind that we're a capitalistic society), i tend to be very skeptical of anyone trying to sell anything (almost as much as those who just give things away ;) ). I know corporate history too well not to. However, my only solution to the problem of over-commercialization is to lead by example and make efforts where I can to return the emphasis on true value. In our case the true value lies in the principle of aiki, the actual meeting and harmonization/reconciliation of energy/work. We can never force people to behave in any given way, even if it is in fact superior.
Ok I'm getting pedantic and a bit tangential like usual, but after reading several of the earlier posts in this thread one thing keeps occuring to me: Aikido is never found online, nor is it ever found in verbal articulations. It's found on the mat via the sharing of well-intentioned and sincere wills. In short: I don't think the expressions of any web-site matter a hill of beans in comparison to that.
Hmmm, now i want to check out AJ just to see what the hubbub is all about.
Take care,
Matt

Hi Matt,

Thank you for contributing to the thread. Hmmmm. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmm. Well, um.... yeah.... I like a lot of what you said - I think, especially this ditty...
I tend to treat all history as rather unimportant aside from being a parable from which to learn behavior principles.
I almost wrote you off humping through the jargon in the preceding statements, and when I bumped into that jewel I got half way through and looked for a hammer to smash... but then I read the next part of your statement and kind of agreed... kind of, depending on if I read you correctly...

People always twist things to their own means, so all absolute truths have a grain of someone at their core. We could get off on a tangent and address this. I am sure, both you and I, and probably a host of others might like to debate it into the next decade. However I do believe at the core of your argument, stated here:
Basing any macro pattern upon a relatively small portion always creates hyperbole. And while it is highly possible that any idea will get taken to extream and perhaps be given an undo/disproportional voice, thus misrepresenting the central truth(s) involved, I don't think hyperbolic rhetoric ever lasts very long. It is by nature highly unstable...besides, regarding history, it's never as important as the present.
that there is the absolute truth that there are no absolute truths, especially if they are not relevant to the immediate moment. I absolutely believe that this point, while absolutely true is absolutely pointless when discussing the main point of the thread, that being, Is there a value in creating a permanent, public not-for profit museum housing all the archival materials relevant to O-Sensei & his original deshi above and beyond the disparate, unorganized commercially based model we observe today That is the crux of it.

I did like your comments about not finding Aikido online. Along that same vein, I don't believe that someone would be able to go to the Aikido Museum and learn aikido without being under the long-term tutelage of a master. The Museum might help serve those of us that are already on the path, and allow those who accompany us along on the journey to have a better context for what it is which we are seeking. However, I would like to add that from what I have seen the highest levels of the art of Aikido are found not on the mat, but rather about 5 to 6 feet above it.

PS -- Please tell me most everyone else up there in WA speaks a bit more casual than you did here. Regardless I look forward to your continued contributions, casual, formal or whatever.

.

mathewjgano

09-05-2005, 08:46 PM

...even if it is in fact superior.

I just want to emphasize the "if" in this remark. Besides, it's fun to tweak the fonts a little

Mark Uttech

09-05-2005, 10:14 PM

Gee, and I thought the anarchy in New Orleans was bad...

Chris Li

09-05-2005, 10:47 PM

Is there a value in creating a permanent, public not-for profit museum housing all the archival materials relevant to O-Sensei & his original deshi above and beyond the disparate, unorganized commercially based model we observe today That is the crux of it.

I don't think that anybody argued against the formation of a non-profit organization, so that's really kind of a non-issue. I do think that many people felt that you were criticizing a chicken farmer for not raising ducks - if you want to eat duck then you're always free to go out and raise some of your own, it has nothing to do with what the chicken farmer is doing.

Best,

Chris

mathewjgano

09-05-2005, 11:13 PM

PS -- Please tell me most everyone else up there in WA speaks a bit more casual than you did here. Regardless I look forward to your continued contributions, casual, formal or whatever.
.

Heheheh! It's a state law to drink coffee, hug trees, and sound like you know what you're talking about even when you don't (AKA-pseudo-intellectualism...and you have to work the word "pseudo" into a sentance whenever possible, I might add). Yeah I have my moments. The ironic thing is that I was raised in a trailer park where I learned to bastardize "proper" english and swear like a sailor by age of 10. Over-compensating? Maybe a little, but for some reason it usually only happens when I'm writting.
And now that I've elucidated via that preamble... :rolleyes: :D
I agree with your responses. For one thing what I wrote was practically it's own topic. I was remarking more on the idea of whether or not AJ was misrepresenting Aikido, which I took to be the initial topic, but I realize only reading the first several posts is like only hearing part of a conversation...and I could've even simply misread them. But I do think a non-profit museum could be of benefit. Although, any organization that ever seeks to build new things isn't exactly a "true" non-profit organization because it must take in more money/resources in order to grow, and I find pet projects (like things of this nature tend to be) tend to always grow in some way. Still, I think a place dedicated to being as objective as possible is always a good thing. One of the hardest things I've come across in reading about "Aikido" is that Ueshiba Morihei-Sensei said so darned much, and his view of "Aiki", and thus the "way of aiki", changed as he did. So, yeah, i'd like a place that concisely (something I could learn more about :D ) provides access to the whole spectrum...er...the whole enchilada. ;)
Whew! Made it!
Take care, dude! <---one of my favorite 4-letter words
Matt

crbateman

09-05-2005, 11:41 PM

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-06-2005, 12:28 AM

I don't think that anybody argued against the formation of a non-profit organization, so that's really kind of a non-issue.
Well Chris, I might have to disagree with you there starting with yourself. While you believe yourself not to have disagreed with it, and although you allude to your agreement (in principle only, perhaps) you haven't actually come out and said you support the idea. Better yet, you haven't extrapolated and put forth as comments how (based upon your allusions to agreeing with it) you see the formation of the Museum and the contribution by Stanley Pranin of the archival materials would ("might" if you prefer that word) go towards bettering the Aikido world and cementing an alternative future to what is currently not possible given a for-profit model.
I do think that many people felt that you were criticizing a chicken farmer for not raising ducks - if you want to eat duck then you're always free to go out and raise some of your own, it has nothing to do with what the chicken farmer is doing.
What I will say is I am not criticizing (in the way that you mean) the farmer and have said that repeatedly, but since you insist I will, using your metaphor, of course. Here goes... It is not that the farmer is raising chickens over ducks rather it is that he is being chicken and ducking his higher responsibility to the farm.

PS - (written with tongue in cheek) I am sure you'll go dig up some of my old comments to prove your last point. However, I will continue to ask you to discuss the issue of the thread, in this case the potential betterment of an Aikido Museum for the Aikido community rather than pointing a finger at me for one reason or another. If you like you can start the Chris Li's issues with Shaun thread and post all the derogatory comments, misrepresenting allusions and animal metaphors, etc. based on your unstated or hidden agendas that you like. I'll even participate and sling some dirt on myself. Oh Glee!

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Mashu

09-06-2005, 12:37 AM

Chris Li

09-06-2005, 01:03 AM

Well Chris, I might have to disagree with you there starting with yourself. While you believe yourself not to have disagreed with it, and although you allude to your agreement (in principle only, perhaps) you haven't actually come out and said you support the idea. Better yet, you haven't extrapolated and put forth as comments how (based upon your allusions to agreeing with it) you see the formation of the Museum and the contribution by Stanley Pranin of the archival materials would ("might" if you prefer that word) go towards bettering the Aikido world and cementing an alternative future to what is currently not possible given a for-profit model.

You want me to support something that doesn't exist, even in planning? Sure, a non-profit could be a good idea. Then again, it might not, depending upon how it was implemented. I've never said that it was a bad idea. If you think that it's a good idea than put up some money (as Stan did) and get it started?

What I will say is I am not criticizing (in the way that you mean) the farmer and have said that repeatedly, but since you insist I will, using your metaphor, of course. Here goes... It is not that the farmer is raising chickens over ducks rather it is that he is being chicken and ducking his higher responsibility to the farm.

Abe could have done it (you said before that he had the idea), but didn't, do you think that he was neglecting his "duty to the farm"? If so, where's the criticism of Abe and his "money making machine"?

PS - (written with tongue in cheek) I am sure you'll go dig up some of my old comments to prove your last point. However, I will continue to ask you to discuss the issue of the thread, in this case the potential betterment of an Aikido Museum for the Aikido community rather than pointing a finger at me for one reason or another. If you like you can start the Chris Li's issues with Shaun thread and post all the derogatory comments, misrepresenting allusions and animal metaphors, etc. based on your unstated or hidden agendas that you like. I'll even participate and sling some dirt on myself. Oh Glee!.

I haven't been digging up old comments of yours to prove a point (that was someone else), and I don't have any particular issues with you other than disagreement with your view on Stan Pranin as I stated in my last post. I haven't made any deragotory comments or slung any dirt that I'm aware of, and what am I supposedly pointing at?

Best,

Chris

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-06-2005, 01:15 AM

There is always somebody (too many, in fact) willing to criticize those who have done much for not doing enough. The tough part is finding those willing to put their sweat where their words are. Stan has done it, and few others have even tried. And still there are the critics.
Rah! Rah! Rah-RahRah! (shake your pom-poms) With all that cheering you are doing are you sweating or just running at the mouth?
And Shawn, just so you can gain some perspective, I did not ask to be designated as a "Featured Author" at AJ. Stan asked me to do it because of my book fetish, and because nobody else was blogging on what he felt was an important subject.
Clark, all rhetoric aside, while I may or may not dig your blogs, I have no problem with and am all for AJ's "featured authors". However, there is the issue, and it has been discussed but not really addressed that "Featuring" an author lends credence to their opinions, whether they be biased or otherwise.
Perhaps if your writing was more objective and less cynical, you would receive a similar invitation. Frankly, all it has done for me is put me in the crosshairs of the narrow-minded and the judgmental. But I draw inspiration from Stan's dedication. If you think that makes me partial to him, you're right. If it means I can't have your respect, I'll be sorry, but I'll live.
I am not interested in being a featured author on Aikido Journal or anywhere else for that matter. Like Chris Li used the word "criticize" yout use of the word "Cynic" is in a negative tone, so as it goes, you are as negative as you acuse me of being. However, to be a critic, we must define it:

Critic

One who forms and expresses judgments of the merits, faults, value, or truth of a matter.
One who specializes especially professionally in the evaluation and appreciation of literary or artistic works: a film critic; a dance critic.
One who tends to make harsh or carping judgments; a faultfinder.

So let me be clear and answer Chris Li's assertion (with a negative connotation) that I tend to criticize. I do. and even in point number three, above, in finding fault one can improve. You can choose to look out and see the roses and the rainbows, but that doesn't mean the acid rain allowing you to see the rainbow isn't going to kill your roses. Ah, we come to the cynic... or what you have asserted me to be.

Cynic

A person who believes all people are motivated by selfishness.
A person whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative.
Cynic A member of a sect of ancient Greek philosophers who believed virtue to be the only good and self-control to be the only means of achieving virtue.

Do you know me so well that you could criticize me (oops, there it is. even you can be so accused) penning me with your assertions that I believe all people to be motivated by selfishness? You don't know me so well, and your glib assertions do nothing but allude to your quick judgment of people. To answer to your accusations, I do not! Do you know me well enough to say that I am scornful, or habitually negative? You do not know me so well. The mere fact that I offered up some way to possibly improve the outlook for the future of the Aikido community means that I do see the positive nature of people and the possible good they could do, if they so chose. As for the third point of the definition, although I will be the first to admit that I have not achieved any lofty position by any measure, it is to that lofty goal that I seek to rise. And you?

As I said, if you want to cheer or jeer, start a new thread and see where it goes. As previously stated, any disagreement you may have with me, justified or not has been duly noted. If you would like to discuss the issue and examine the possible good the Museum could do for the future of the Aikido community (and this would include Stan's donation of the archival materials he now possesses to the Museum) I look forward to your post.

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Misogi-no-Gyo

09-06-2005, 01:44 AM

Shaun R.,

For your museum idea to reach the most Aikido people and do the most good wouldn't it be best for it to be a virtual museum on the internet? Isn't that what Aikido Journal is already doing in a way?
Cheers,

Matthew
Hi Matthew,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I guess I would have to say that on one level the internet is a great thing. However, there is a reason that many Museum's popularity has actually risen over the years rather than declined. There is the altruistic hope that a Museum allows viewers to see for themselves and make up there own minds. My opinion is that there is an issue when you have individuals who proffer academic opinions in control of archival materials that should be under the direction of an unbiased directorship.
What would be the major differences between what you propose and what Aikido Journal is already?
Well, that is a good question. Again, this is just an idea, and not one that I would administer. However, I would like to see all archival materials under one roof, in an actual place that can be visited. They should not be "owned" by individuals. I do know that, too, is an altruistic hope, one that is not realized today at any museum. Museums today rely heavily on loaned collections that are owned by individuals. Perhaps this is a good first step. These individuals are always credited with their names highlighted in every medium associated with the publicity behind these exhibitions. It would be entirely possible that Stanly Pranin could be one of the founding members behind the Museum, and again that would be towards his credit, an effort which among others of his I would deservingly acknowledge.

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Mashu

09-06-2005, 02:00 AM

Misogi-no-Gyo

09-06-2005, 02:15 AM

Abe could have done it (you said before that he had the idea), but didn't, do you think that he was neglecting his "duty to the farm"? If so, where's the criticism of Abe and his "money making machine"?

When it comes to martial arts as a cultural heritage Abe Sensei has done specific things and set in motion others that put him in a category for which few can even find the proper name. In Japan he is a National Living treasure. It is not for me to speak for Abe Sensei here. I will say (and this is just my opinion) that Seiseki Abe Sensei has done more to preserve O-Sensei's Aikido than any ten men alive today that you can mention. If you knew him you would say the same. If O-Sensei's Aikido is of any real importance to you, I invite you to make the effort to get to know him - at whatever cost and sacrifice.

I think it extremely important to make the point (and for you Chris to acknowledge) that Abe Sensei does not make money selling pictures or videos of O-Sensei, or himself - both of which he could do for quite a large profit. That is his way, and it is to be respected, not alluded to as something negative by association.

Abe Sensei is a living example of the Museum that I have recommended we create. He is a rally point around which others contribute source material. I can 't say more at this time, but I have recently embarked, although only at the discussion level for the moment, on a plan to bring some of this source materials to light.

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Misogi-no-Gyo

09-06-2005, 02:27 AM

Shaun R.,

Thank you for your reply. I still don't understand what you would want to be in a physical museum of Aikido. What does Aikido Journal or other groups possess that would best be on display in some collection? Do they have large amounts of primary source material that nobody else has that they don't share?

Best regards,

Matthew
Matthew, I don't mean to be glib when I say that if you don't know what the difference between what a Museum does and a website does, then you should get out more. Seriously, go to any major museum and ask them their purpose. Or, if you like, you can go to their website (no pun intended) and read their mission statement. Museums have websites, not the other way around.

Okay, my vacation is over, so it is back to my regularly scheduled routine of watching television, doing misogi and teaching aikido. Hopefully the cheerleaders have cheered enough and they, too must return to their so-called lives. I won't be posting replies to anything other than blatant misinformation or actual useful questions and comments. It has been fun, thought provoking even though it was sometimes downright silly, humorous and unfortunately narrow minded and sad. That was the last post for me today, as I have to teach class in a few hours...

Good night to all, and to all a good night.

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Chris Li

09-06-2005, 02:34 AM

When it comes to martial arts as a cultural heritage Abe Sensei has done specific things and set in motion others that put him in a category for which few can even find the proper name. In Japan he is a National Living treasure. It is not for me to speak for Abe Sensei here. I will say (and this is just my opinion) that Seiseki Abe Sensei has done more to preserve O-Sensei's Aikido than any ten men alive today that you can mention. If you knew him you would say the same. If O-Sensei's Aikido is of any real importance to you, I invite you to make the effort to get to know him - at whatever cost and sacrifice.

I think it extremely important to make the point (and for you Chris to acknowledge) that Abe Sensei does not make money selling pictures or videos of O-Sensei, or himself - both of which he could do for quite a large profit. That is his way, and it is to be respected, not alluded to as something negative by association.

I didn't allude to it as something negative, my point was that someone who does many positive things (as Abe does, and as you admitted that Stan Pranin has) ought not to be criticized because he doesn't do other, unrelated, things.

Abe Sensei is a living example of the Museum that I have recommended we create. He is a rally point around which others contribute source material. I can 't say more at this time, but I have recently embarked, although only at the discussion level for the moment, on a plan to bring some of this source materials to light.

Well that's great. Isn't that what I suggested in the first place?

Best,

Chris