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Pdella
08-29-2005, 01:40 PM
i know this sounds like the beginning of an aikido stand-up routine, but i actually do have a serious question here. lets say you are a smaller human and a bigger one wraps his/her arms around your chest (trapping your arms to your sides) and actually lifts you off the ground?

if I wasn't lifted off the ground, I could try to manipulate my body to throw him/her off me, but being lifted off the ground, it's hard for me to see how you can do anything to impede the attack, other than making it more costly for the attacker to maintain the bear hug, e.g. kicking them in the crotch, head butting them with the back of your head, etc.

any ideas?

Ron Tisdale
08-29-2005, 02:01 PM
Don't let them lift you off the ground???

Sorry, in a wierd mood...but seriously, any waza that I know for bear hugs pretty much assumes you move *before* they get you off the ground.

Best,
Ron

DarkShodan
08-29-2005, 02:42 PM
Stick your tongue in his ear. Hey, it worked for me. :crazy:

Goye
08-29-2005, 02:43 PM
I agree with Ron!,.. if one can lift you up from the floor,.. the principles of distance, time and position are not working well,... it shouldn't happen.

James Davis
08-29-2005, 04:41 PM
If someone should surprise you with a bearhug from behind and lift you off the floor, just go limp. As long as they are the only attacker, let them waste their energy holding you up while you have a chance to get your breath under control. When they get tired (and they will eventually), go to work as soon as they put your feet on the ground again. If they dump you, use your ukemi. ;)

Bryan
08-29-2005, 04:44 PM
It should never happen? ...I should apply this philosophy to my driving techniques so I can drop my auto insurance :hypno: sorry...I had to take that shot.

Maybe if you have eyes in the back of your head, spider sense, or never leave your house. Have you ever been to a concert, to a crowded public event, always stand with your back against a wall, or misjudged distance/timing? Bearhugs are a possibility. Most self defense programs include defenses against them.

A couple of tips on rear bearhug escapes:

1. Atemi - kick with your heal to the knee caps, thighs, or groin if you can reach it. They are bringing your feet closer to those targets so take advantage of it. It will give them some incentive to put you down, hopefully without slamming you. Head butt with the back of your head to the front of thier face if you're in alignment to do so. If your attacker is not significantly larger or stronger, twisting and turning while waving your arms and legs can also create some inertia that is difficult for them to control, also giving them incentive to put you down.


2. Create Space - take a deep breath in...not into the hara, but actually fill the chest and expand your lungs. Push laterally with your shoulders / arms..... Once the chest is full, expel the air quickly while simultaneously relaxing and pulling your arms closer to your trunk. Hopefully you have expanded then contracted enought to create some space to fall through...to help you slide downward you can shurg your shoulders upward giving your body more downward slack to help with the momentum. Rais your arms outward to make it more difficult for the attacker to regain his grip on you.

Once you've gained your footing/balance you have some options depending on the situation.

I like to be simple and just turn my hips about 45 degrees one direction and step back under the attackers arms.

Another possibility is to grasp the top of attackers hand with, your hands, and pry the top off attackers hand outward, externally rotating his hand/wrist. You can sometimes step forward and apply shionage or kotegaishi depending on how you grabbed stepped and turned the attackers arm.

If you want to be fancy you can plant your hip under the attackers center and go for a koshinage.

there are many approaches to this situation, hopefully this just helped you to come up with your own way of dealing with that attack...if avoiding it didn't work.

toyamabarnard
08-29-2005, 05:14 PM
Depending on your arm length and the relation to your attacker's body you may be able to grab the "groin" and twist. No matter what technique you use the best think you can do is not panick, remember to breath, and think clearly. With calmness, and hopefully clarity, the apropriate next step should come to you.

cmrs2k
08-29-2005, 06:11 PM
I know that this might sound quite strange, but try this. Have a training partner bear hug you and lift you off the ground. When he does, stick both of your legs straight out in front of you. This should cause one of two things. If he has his back arched really far to lift you, the two of you may go over backwards, if he doesn't, this should make you pretty tough to keep held up, and he should be forced to set you down, usually rather rapidly. If you try this, I'm curious as to what your feedback is on it.

aikigirl10
08-29-2005, 06:24 PM
I know that this might sound quite strange, but try this. Have a training partner bear hug you and lift you off the ground. When he does, stick both of your legs straight out in front of you. This should cause one of two things. If he has his back arched really far to lift you, the two of you may go over backwards, if he doesn't, this should make you pretty tough to keep held up, and he should be forced to set you down, usually rather rapidly. If you try this, I'm curious as to what your feedback is on it.


This is really interesting. I'm gonna try that with my dad. I'll let everyone know what happens.

Nick P.
08-29-2005, 08:26 PM
lets say you are a smaller human and a bigger one wraps his/her arms around your chest (trapping your arms to your sides) and actually lifts you off the ground?


It was probably a language thing, or we were all drunk, but Sensei demonstrated this very thing a couple of nights ago while here on his visit. He weighs probably no more than 150 lbs, and when picked up by my 200 lb buddy, weighs nothing.
Both feet about a foot off the ground.

Then he switches "it" on after asking "Ready?".
I have a photo of it I will post, but the look on my friends face (nidan, and my sempai) said it all. He plays semi-pro rugby and could best describe it as "his weight felt like it doubled."

Must have been good sake we were drinking.

Niadh
08-29-2005, 10:11 PM
i know this sounds like the beginning of an aikido stand-up routine,

if I wasn't lifted off the ground, I could try to manipulate my body to throw him/her off me, but being lifted off the ground, it's hard for me to see how you can do anything to impede the attack, other than making it more costly for the attacker to maintain the bear hug, e.g. kicking them in the crotch, head butting them with the back of your head, etc.

any ideas?
Okay I'll bite, why did you let the bear hug you?

Sorry. But seriously do you do Ki training in your style? One form of this that I have seen is when 2 uke's lift nage, one holding each arm, while nage is stiff and "strong". Then trying the same thing while nage is using ki to stay attached to the ground and givving no resistence to ukes. I have also seen this applied in motion. I.E Turning "it" on as someone else said, while nage is in the air.. Try it sometime to help "get the sensation" (sorry, more bad comedy)

Niadh

xuzen
08-30-2005, 04:21 AM
bear hug and got lifted off feet... wriggle wriggle wriggle. Ever notice how difficult it is to catch a fish with your bare hands...

Jiawei
08-30-2005, 08:00 AM
scream ? :D

MaryKaye
08-30-2005, 09:20 AM
We teach the kid students to relax and slide downwards, and I can very seldom hold onto them.

I have seen the "unliftable body after you're already lifted" demonstrated by an eighth dan, and it's darned impressive but seems quite hard to learn. When doing it with two ukes he could take them down on the process: I could never tell if they were falling before or after his feet touched the mat. At my level, though, sliding out seems more realistic.

Mary Kaye

Ketsan
08-30-2005, 01:04 PM
If you're face to face bring your elbows in, slip one of your arms in front of you, tuck your chin in and take hold of his larynx.

A big huge person bear hugged me from behind yesterday, I did this: Dropped my posture and leaned forward to pull them slighly off balance, pulled my elbows in and took their hands. Then I rolled their hands forward but that wasn't doing much, so I let go one of their hands and elbowed him in the floating rib and managed to get my left arm out. Then I rolled the hand I was still holding and smashed down with a palm heel stike onto his hands to seperate them, since his fingers were interlinked. From there I stepped forward and turned and put nikkyo on, aided greatly by him trying to free his hand from mine and gave him a close up look of my boot and then did a kote gaeshi style take down on top of the nikkyo which brought him down with much screaming.

Ron Tisdale
08-30-2005, 01:35 PM
:) I like the much screaming part...You can also use the middle knuckle of you middle finger to strike the center of the back of their hand REALLY HARD. That will often loosen their grip.

Best,
Ron

Mark Uttech
08-30-2005, 03:57 PM
if you hook your foot around his calf, he can't lift you anymore than he can lift himself

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2005, 04:17 PM
look at the premise of the attack. Bear hug is really a very poor attack. Why is someone trying to restrain both arms and lift you off the ground?

The good news about it is that while they are holding you it is hard for them to do anything else without adjusting the attack.

The bad news is that they might be trying to stuff you in a vehicle, hold you for another person to do something, or trying to take you down to the ground. Or it could just simply be an emotional based attack meant not to harm or over power you.

Intent makes the difference as to what response you should take. I'd really question the intent and also why you allowed someone to get this close to begin with, and if it was indeed a suprise (ambush) then consider yourself temporarily lucky that they chose this method over another attack as it bought you at least a few seconds to figure out what your next response should be.

Pdella
08-30-2005, 04:38 PM
all the responses are dope. of course it's a bad thing to let happen, but like someone said, anything can happen. i'll try those strategies out in class next time. thanks.

jk
08-31-2005, 01:43 AM
If you're lucky the person who's giving you the bear hug just happens to like you a lot. If not, and they're big and strong enough, it's conceivable that they'll be pile-driving your head into something hard within milliseconds of lifting you off the ground. So I don't personally think this sort of attack is totally silly, even if knifing you from behind would be much faster. I'd go for hooking the calf if I can't get their balance.

Jiawei
08-31-2005, 04:52 AM
If you're lucky the person who's giving you the bear hug just happens to like you a lot. If not, and they're big and strong enough, it's conceivable that they'll be pile-driving your head into something hard within milliseconds of lifting you off the ground. So I don't personally think this sort of attack is totally silly, even if knifing you from behind would be much faster. I'd go for hooking the calf if I can't get their balance.


Won't that opren you up for other's attack ? I mean, once you really caught, its kind of over isn't it ? But then again you could stamp on the foot or something ....then...I dunno ...perform some aiki technique ?

jk
08-31-2005, 05:21 AM
Yeah, if you're caught and dangling up in the air, I figure it's pretty much game over if the attacker is intent on damaging you. My take, which wasn't very clear in my first post, is that once initial contact is made you make sure they can't get under your center to easily lift you up. If you can manage that, then you can follow up with a few other things of your choice. However, if you find yourself struggling pitifully against the bearhug and feel in imminent danger of being lifted, I'd try to hook the ankle to minimize how much they can lift you up. I see it as a "I'm screwed anyway, so let's try to do some damage control" move. For what it's worth...

Ron Tisdale
08-31-2005, 11:12 AM
If a wrestler gets behind you while standing one of the first things is to bear hug (with or without the arms trapped) and suplex. It happens very quickly, and when you hit the ground you will likely be stunned (and he will be moving to his preferred position to finish you).

I experimented with a friend who wrestles, while I used a Daito ryu technique to try to reverse and submit him. Sorry to say, but the results didn't work out in my favor very often. The key was to be moving the instant he made contact. If not, I was toast. And he wasn't even being malicious. Once your feet are off the ground, you are already airborne, and then on your head. I would do an awfull lot to prevent myself from being in that position.

Best,
Ron

jeff.
08-31-2005, 12:31 PM
this is a really interesting thread... but i'm curious... what are people's thoughts about what one would do from a bear attack.

it appears to me that bears often use modified yokomen attacks, at least initially. the claws, of coruse, are an important concern.

and, of course, we have to keep in mind the differences between various kinds of bears. like a grizzly bear would clearly require more extension than a black bear, regardless of technique. and pandas are so relaxed as a rule that technique on this would be different than vs polar bears, who tend to be rather tense (as i'm given to understand).

:D

malsmith
08-31-2005, 12:50 PM
i dont know about bears, but this guy gave me a bear hug from behind the other day and picked me up, and i started kicking like crazy, trying to aim for his crotch, and i think it worked pretty well cause he just dropped me almost instantaneously, it actually took me by surprise and i almost fell over when i hit the ground cause i wasnt ready for him to just let go like that!

Eric Webber
08-31-2005, 01:53 PM
Wear golf shoes and kick hard.

aikigirl10
08-31-2005, 09:26 PM
I know that this might sound quite strange, but try this. Have a training partner bear hug you and lift you off the ground. When he does, stick both of your legs straight out in front of you. This should cause one of two things. If he has his back arched really far to lift you, the two of you may go over backwards, if he doesn't, this should make you pretty tough to keep held up, and he should be forced to set you down, usually rather rapidly. If you try this, I'm curious as to what your feedback is on it.


I tried this with my cousin anthony (he's pretty strong) and it really did work. He was able to hold me for about 4 or 5 seconds. He said it was really difficult because it put more strain on his back. He said when he got done, the pain in his back was enough of a destraction for the victim to definitely run away. (i hope i didnt hurt him) But anyway , we were both very surprised at this neat little trick.

Just some feedback , Try it yourself if u dont believe me.

-Paige

cmrs2k
08-31-2005, 09:36 PM
I'm glad to hear that you liked that little trick. My teacher showed me that one, among others, that I found quite entertaining. I particularly like raising my knees to my chest and then kicking straight out, it usually has a more drastic affect. I'm sure that flexibility or lack of, might keep some people from doing it that way though.

Huker
09-01-2005, 10:36 AM
We covered this one in class. Drop your weight at the hips and groin strike. If you can't drop, reach down and pinch a really tiny piece of skin on their leg. The thin layer of fat there makes it surprisingly painful. You can also use that as a way to create an openinng for the strike.

I guess if they pick you up right off of the ground, kick off of something to knock them back and land right on their head. If you can't do that, you could try hammer kicking them in the knee or something.

Hey, whatever works, but try and get that weight drop at the moment of the grab.

SmilingNage
09-01-2005, 10:38 AM
Just keep a look out for signs in the forest stating.... beware! bear hugging bears afoot and you will be fine

rogueenergy
09-01-2005, 11:48 AM
bear hugging bears aside...

We practiced these a few times when I was training in Daito Ryu (regular bear hugs not the kind intent on a suplex). Most the suggestions for counters started with stomping on the foot and elbowing in the ribs if you were still on the ground. Kicking the knees/groin and reverse head butting if you weren't. But if all of that failed we would use our knuckles on the back of the attackers hand for what we called the metatarsal rub (rubbing the knuckles across the bones in the back of the hand). The pain is excruciating and makes them let go instantaneously (although if the person was "under the influence" it's anyones guess if it would work). At least this option doesn't cause any permanent damage.

Thinking about the suplex, doing this might turn their suplex into a throw, or at the very least send you sliding on your back instead of your head.

toyamabarnard
09-01-2005, 12:04 PM
You could just leave the bar like the bouncer told you to :D

Eric Webber
09-01-2005, 04:39 PM
You could just leave the bar like the bouncer told you to :D
Many years ago I had the interesting experience of being forcefully removed from a local drinking establishment. The hold used was excellent, he grabbed my elbows and pinned them to my sides while lifting up slightly to get me off balance. I have incorporated that style of grab or "attack" into our practice. Like a bear hug, it is difficult to work your way out of when you're caught off guard.

Ketsan
09-01-2005, 07:03 PM
Be a tree hugging hippy instead of a bear hugging one?

batemanb
09-02-2005, 01:52 AM
One would hope that you don't get into the position of being hugged and lifted off of the ground, i.e. maintaining zanshin at all times etc. However, just in case I have a lapse in concentration....;).

I decided to play around with this in my class last night. I got the biggest heaviest chap in the room to hug me as tight and hard as he could and to pick me up off the floor, he lifted me like a piece of paper. Despite the tension around my arms and chest, most of the rest of the body was moveable, first attempt I stayed relaxed, rotated my hand and grabbed his "nadgers", he dropped me like I was a piece of hot coal :D. Second attempt, I just totally relaxed, he managed to keep me off the floor for about 2 seconds before he collapsed under my weight. Third attempt, I just demonstrated the fact that if I stayed relaxed and diddn't fight against his grab, I had a number of different atemi available to me using hands, feet and head.

When the class played with it, it was interesting to see the differences in what each individual thought "relaxed" meant ;).

Ideally the key is not to fight with the grab, just like any grab, ignore uke and use the rest of your body in a relaxed manner.

Regards

Bryan

Tim Gerrard
09-02-2005, 03:36 AM
Stick the nut on, or if your Zanshin isn't too addled by booze, glass him before he gets too close.

Jiawei
09-02-2005, 03:56 AM
Stick the nut on, or if your Zanshin isn't too addled by booze, glass him before he gets too close.



Ha ha !!! :D That's humorous !! Or try to get your fingers on his....ahem. crotch area. He will never hug you again I promise . :D

batemanb
09-02-2005, 05:25 AM
Ha ha !!! :D That's humorous !! Or try to get your fingers on his....ahem. crotch area. He will never hug you again I promise . :D


read "nadgers" ;) :D

Peter Goldsbury
09-02-2005, 07:17 AM
Hello Everybody,

I assume we are discussing bear hugs from behond and not grips often seen in sumo wrestling, where the opponent attacks from the front, his mawashi is grabbed and he is lifted out of the ring.

Bear hugs from behind could be a crucial problem for some people living in Tokyo and perhaps elsewhere.

There have been cases of people being grabbed from behind during the Tokyo rush hour and pushed off the platform in front of an oncoming train. I am sure that Tokyo is not so unusual, but the rush hour can be awesome, in terms of the sheer numbers of people. Occasionally cases hit the headlines of some mentally deranged guy, let out of an institution, taking a dislike to someone he has never set eyes on before, jumping on them from behind and pushing them on to the tracks. You stand in line, absorbed in your reading or plugged into your I-Pod headphones and suddenly you are A over T and facing train wheels bearing down on you.

O Sensei discusses this question in Budo Resnhuu and in Budo but there are some differences. However, he is very clear that (1) such attacks are very difficult to dea,l with and (2) you need to train constantly to develop the requisite sixth sense.

Best regards,

xuzen
09-02-2005, 11:29 PM
Just this week in one of our dojo's jiyu waza session, my adjutant sensei was the shite; myself and two more other were the ukes in our regular san nin dori jiyu waza (three opponent free sparring).

As I was coming in for a shomen uchi attack towards the front side of shite, another uke was coming in from shite behind also with a shomen attack. What adjutant sensei did (in my opinion) was brilliant, he reverse and slam into the rear uke (if you have seen Gozo Shioda's video you will get a better mental picture) using his back. Then he lunged forward and did an kokyu nage on me. The rear uke (a lady uke) was gassed out for a few seconds. His timing was impeccable

Seeing how this thread is regarding what to do wrt bear hugs... I guess that could be one defense just before the hug take place. And maybe also defense against psychotic Japanese during metro rush hour ala Peter G's story. :D

Ron Tisdale
09-03-2005, 07:41 AM
That is one defense...and it is a good one if you have good focus power. Chida Sensei carried an impression of Kancho Sensei's patch for about a week from one of those. :)

Best,
Ron (didn't try that one on my testing run though)

mathewjgano
09-05-2005, 01:22 AM
e.g. kicking them in the crotch, head butting them with the back of your head, etc.any ideas?

I suppose it all depends on the details of the grab. I've used the back of my head to hit someone in the nose before and that was quite effective. I've also slipped out of one fairly strong friend's grab by sinking and raising my arms. I've seen a demonstration where the arms were free and nage knocked uke to the ground such that uke was pinned by nage's body and where nage was able to use his elbows to strike pretty effectively. I'm sure kicking at the knees or groin could potentially work too. I found at my highest level of training whenever someone put a hand on me, my instinct was to close the distance which always seemed to give me a slight advantage whenever friends would try to sneak up on me, but every human has a blind spot, so it seems we're never invulnerable.
I wonder about the scenario of sticking the legs straight out, if, as the attacker, I wouldn't just drop with all my weight trying to break their tail bone, or at least drop them and then pin them to the ground...then again, if I was attacking someone from behind I probably wouldn't grab them as there are so many tender places to strike...not to take away from the fact that this is a good thing to consider. Not everyone thinks the same way after all...
I'll have to try it out on the mat I guess to be more sure.
Take care,
Matt

Tim Gerrard
09-05-2005, 05:14 PM
Or try to get your fingers on his....ahem. crotch area. He will never hug you again I promise . :D

Or he might take a liking to you, then you'll be sorry :eek:

ikkitosennomusha
09-06-2005, 12:36 AM
There are several things you can do 3 of whch I will briefly mention:

1. build centripetal force by circulating your center in a continuous tenkan-like fation and open up in such a way that sends uke flying. It is hard for me to describe, I would be much better at demonstrating.

2. Do a forward ukemi roll. He is bond to let go once youhave made him the floor!

3. Pressure points.

I hope this helps!

Brad

Ketsan
09-06-2005, 07:46 AM
tickle him? Or saw "Aww thanks" :D

DustinAcuff
09-06-2005, 11:11 PM
Kiss him??

Seriously, this question has come up before in my (now former) dojo. Believe it or not, look over one shoulder and keep trying to turn your head farther over your shoulder. Don't know exactly how but this will actually pull your attacker off balance and onto the ground. Or at least this works when you are bear-hugged from behind.

The thing I want to know is how did someoen get a frontal bearhug on you to begin with?

Rupert Atkinson
09-07-2005, 12:40 AM
We did a few of these last month. I did two from the front and two from the rear -- varying the attacks to arms-over-arms and arms-under-arms.

We didn't do any lifting versions but in that situation Jujutsu teaches you to headbutt at the moment of contact - either forwards or rearwards depending upon position - not as the end of the technique but as the begining - to stop them getting a firm grip.

Also interesting is if they catch you arms-under-arms from the front, you can catch them arms-over-arms (or vice-versa) and as you meet, the one on-the-ball, or the sharpest, will get the better position (kind of like when shaking hands one person often gets the better grip - if you're quick, it is you). So, just as we often deal with say yokomen in a yokomen kind of way so can we deal with bear hugs in a bear hug kind of way.

Nick Simpson
09-14-2005, 05:42 AM
'glass him before he gets too close.'


Jiawei Lee wrote:
Or try to get your fingers on his....ahem. crotch area. He will never hug you again I promise .



'Or he might take a liking to you, then you'll be sorry'


I love you Tim.

Nick Simpson
09-14-2005, 05:43 AM
My uncle once kissed a football hooligan who was about to stitch him one, totally diffused the situation. But then again, I can also imagine it earning you a greater kicking...

Charles Cunningham
09-14-2005, 08:24 AM
The bear hug was a standard attack in the Yoshinkan style I used to study at Mits Yamashita's dojo in Long Beach. One response I remember from a rear bear hug involves shite moving his arms out and forward and dropping his center to make his upper body more "cone shaped" and loosen uke's grip slightly. Shite then steps forward as if to make a yokomen attack and projects uke around his side. There were other responses.

Charles Cunningham

andylucas
09-14-2005, 08:55 PM
from behind, a pinch to the inner thigh like your trying to pick up a pin. if its a hug from the front push your index finger up under the nose like a mustache.

ChrisHein
09-16-2005, 07:07 PM
Hey have any of you guys seen tape of O-sensei showing bear hug techniques?

Thanx
-Chris Hein

Aikilove
09-19-2005, 04:04 AM
Yep (all arms over arm from behind) he either did ikkyo, kokyonage, or somehow spun around and caught uke in a bear hug himself. It seems that he always managed to expand his arm out so that uke never gets a good grip.

/J

CarlRylander
09-19-2005, 06:57 AM
I read a James Bond book once where someone bear hugged him from in front and 'nutted' him!

CarlRylander
09-19-2005, 06:59 AM
Bond nutted him, I mean!

Jorx
09-21-2005, 04:18 AM
I'm sorry to say that but mr. Andy Lucas you are delusional (in the area of defending a bearhug) and have probably never been attacked with a proper bearhug.

Also everyone should come to conclusion what exactly a bearhug is. In MMA/wrestling it is usually referred to as one type of takedown from the FRONT BODYLOCK position. What most are referring to as a bearhug is the front or back bodylock. Some are talking about position where one grabs OVER the arms (which is a quite ignorant attack btw).

James Davis
09-21-2005, 11:25 AM
I'm sorry to say that but mr. Andy Lucas you are delusional (in the area of defending a bearhug) and have probably never been attacked with a proper bearhug.

You've probably never had your inner thigh pinched by Andy, either. :D :D :D

Jorx
09-21-2005, 01:07 PM
Sorry to say it James, but moot point - proper bearhug/bodylock involves DOUBLE underhooks. Very hard to reach down to inner thigh when someone has double underhooks on you. Definitely not a thing to rely on or suggest as a first counter.

Also it involves proper head placement which makes punching and for that matter sticking fingers under the nose very hard.

ALSO keep in mind that a proper bearhug is either done with a leg between "uke's" legs to avoid kicking OR in case of back bodylock the hips might be taken away and head controls the lower back. Makes kicking less effective.

Also someone who lifts somebody up to just hold them there does not know much about controlling an opponent. Proper bodylock is to control and when you lift then you instantly dump them on their head.

Now some SERIOUS counters now: when lifted off the ground insert a hook with your foot somewhere around his leg. Makes throwing harder. If lifted from back after inserting the hook try to get rolling kimura/udegarami/bent shoulderlock. If lifted from front insert hook, try to get underhooks.

Ron Tisdale
09-21-2005, 02:38 PM
Jorgen's description matches with my wrestling experience. This does not negate the fact that some people will do an over the arm bear hug, or will use one to simply hold you, or control you enough to walk you out of some particular space. These things do happen...its just that usually it's a not very competant person who does them. In those situations, a pinch here, elbow there might really work. I have to say that standard aikido training seems oriented toward those sorts of attacks. But as I said in a post earlier, if the attack is truly committed and of a serious level, the person will be aiming to dump you on your head without much or any pause. Pinching is NOT the way to go against that type of attack. Even some of the standard aikido defences seem to be iffy under those circumstances.

Best,
Ron

James Davis
09-21-2005, 04:40 PM
Jorgen's description matches with my wrestling experience. This does not negate the fact that some people will do an over the arm bear hug, or will use one to simply hold you, or control you enough to walk you out of some particular space. These things do happen...its just that usually it's a not very competant person who does them. In those situations, a pinch here, elbow there might really work. I have to say that standard aikido training seems oriented toward those sorts of attacks. But as I said in a post earlier, if the attack is truly committed and of a serious level, the person will be aiming to dump you on your head without much or any pause. Pinching is NOT the way to go against that type of attack. Even some of the standard aikido defences seem to be iffy under those circumstances.

Best,
Ron
Yeah, but the first post describes the "arm-pinning" variety of a bear hug, not the "double-underhook" variety. :)

James Davis
09-21-2005, 04:42 PM
Yeah, but the first post describes the "arm-pinning" variety of a bear hug, not the "double-underhook" variety. :)
Wouldn't that be a full nelson? :confused:
Not a lot of wrestling experience I'm afraid.

Jorx
09-22-2005, 12:52 AM
full nelson=double underhooks from back and hands brought onto head

if someone grabs over the hands from the back i think the "aiki" way of making space and dropping centre is a good start. If in air then insert a hook fro balance and try it then.

aikidojoe
09-22-2005, 02:55 PM
I know in most cases you never want to go to the floor, but with a regular bear hug where they have gone over your arms to grab a hold of their own hands, have you considered doing a forward roll? I mean letting someone get to that position to begin with shows lack of awareness (as if that's never happened to me), but even if you just catch it as the hands are coming around, you can drop your weight and hopefully get into hanmi. As you do that, go for your roll on the side of your forward foot.

Almost like doing a Koshi with you going over with them.


Just a thought.

emma.mason15
09-22-2005, 06:46 PM
Hug Back???

sorry ... had to be said!!!!

Saji Jamakin
09-27-2005, 10:46 PM
Jorgen's description matches with my wrestling experience. This does not negate the fact that some people will do an over the arm bear hug, or will use one to simply hold you, or control you enough to walk you out of some particular space. These things do happen...its just that usually it's a not very competant person who does them. In those situations, a pinch here, elbow there might really work. I have to say that standard aikido training seems oriented toward those sorts of attacks. But as I said in a post earlier, if the attack is truly committed and of a serious level, the person will be aiming to dump you on your head without much or any pause.

Best,
Ron

Yeah, I've seen that done in a bar before except the person being dumped landed on their feet...and they were an "unskilled fighter".

Ron Tisdale
09-28-2005, 02:11 PM
I can believe that would happen, I've seen some really flexible people. But usually, with a competant attacker, it ain't gonna happen...otherwise you would see it all the time in high school and college wrestling matches.

Best,
Ron

andylucas
10-03-2005, 07:04 PM
mr jorx you know me ?

you know my weight lifting background ?
my wrestling background?
proper bear hugs? thats funny.
everybody in your town a trained pit fighter?
have a nice day but you knew that i'd say that.
cause you know me.

mathewjgano
10-04-2005, 01:33 AM
I think the tough thing about threads like these is that for every action there is a counter action. Also, there is, I think, serious truth to the idea that once you've been grabbed by someone who knows what they're doing, you're fubar'd, whether you try to hook your leg around one of theirs or try to pinch 'em. Maybe the only "serious" answer is to feel your way through any openings that may exist and exploit them. In a technique-oriented question like this, there are at least as many right answers as there are variations on this scenario and in discussing them, most of us have a slightly different version playing out in our heads. I think you all came up with interesting food for thought. Take care!

Ed Shockley
10-08-2005, 08:25 AM
This is my least favorite attack because unless I have the presence to sink and expand before the fingers lock then there is a huge reduction of possible responses. One thing not to do. Years ago I had been taught by another art to squiggle my hips to the side then twist my center toppling us both to the ground and freeing the grip. I weigh 240 so was able to get enough twist to create the "throw" but landed on my shoulder. It's tough, not impossible, to get that other person to clear your back. I vote for scream!

Jorx
10-09-2005, 12:02 PM
mr jorx you know me ?

you know my weight lifting background ?
my wrestling background?
proper bear hugs? thats funny.
everybody in your town a trained pit fighter?
have a nice day but you knew that i'd say that.
cause you know me.

Why to get all personal?

No, I do not know your weight lifting background (what does it have to do with this topic?) No I do not know your wrestling background. I said PROBABLY because as much as I know about wrestling no person with some wrestling background would suggest pinching and such as a countermove.

Everybody in my town a trained pit fighter? No? Why? But why would I want to practice techniques and counters which do not work in case a trained pit fighter visiting my town decides to attack me? Why would I want to practice techniques and counters which very probably would not work on people with high pain tolerance (which includes almost all very determined attackers and people under influence of some drugs).

Ron Tisdale
10-11-2005, 03:53 PM
More importantly,

Why would you want to train techniques that are likely to just piss someone off????

The pinching stuff works well to get bullies to give you space in grade school.

I don't think I'd push it much beyond that.

Best,
Ron

aikigirl10
10-11-2005, 04:29 PM
More importantly,

Why would you want to train techniques that are likely to just piss someone off????

The pinching stuff works well to get bullies to give you space in grade school.

I don't think I'd push it much beyond that.

Best,
Ron

I dont agree with this at all.

In aikido we have actually practiced ground fighting quite a bit. ( my sensei has cross trained in tons of different ma's) Once when we were doing ground fighting my sensei asked another black belt in the dojo to sit on him in full mount with a choke hold as hard as he could and dont let up. So he did. About 2 sec's later the guy screams "Ah!!" and hes clear on the other side of the room, holding the back of his thigh. It was so subtle, i didnt even get to see what my sensei did to make him do that. So i asked him and he said "i pinched him with my fingernails"

I think pinching, however "grade school" you might think it is, is extremely effective especially if your uke/attacker/whoever isnt expecting it. It can really take them off guard.

aikigirl10
10-11-2005, 04:33 PM
Why would I want to practice techniques and counters which very probably would not work on people with high pain tolerance (which includes almost all very determined attackers and people under influence of some drugs).

Well... you can be tolerant of all kinds of pain... not just pinching. Punching hurts, kicking hurts, arm bars and choke holds hurt. If someone is tolerant of one kind of pain , why wouldnt they be tolerant of another.

aikigirl10
10-11-2005, 04:38 PM
Of course i guess if we're talking about bear hugs, pinching may not be the best solution... but if you can situate yourself to do it... then i say go for it.

James Davis
10-11-2005, 05:14 PM
That's what's so neat about aikido is that we have a choice between pinching someone or taking them out. If it's a skinny punk by himself that just thought he was doing something funny, I might just make him say uncle. If multiple attackers are around, or my wife is endangered, I might just take somebody out. evileyes We train the way we do in aikido to find NICE ways of getting morons the hell off of us. :D

ian
10-12-2005, 05:35 AM
Moderate pain is a waste of time in real fights because of the adrenalin. In a US survey 60% of people who have been attacked with knives only realised they had been attacked with a knife AFTER the event. This adrenalin cannot be replicated in the dojo. Strikes must have some physiological response; thus strikes to eyes, sternum, groin and jaw are great, but a nip is usually pretty useless (I say usually, because if you build up your fingerstrength enough you can tear off lumps of flesh or damage muscle/tendon for incapacitation). Obviously it depends on the situation (i.e. whether they are just arsing around of whether they are determined), but instead of a nip I would suggest grabbing the testicles or a finger and pulling it off, a rear head but, a reverse kick to the groin or biting a lump out of them.

Jorx
10-12-2005, 06:33 AM
Would you really want biting a lump out of the groin be the technique you rely on and train it? As a last resort mindset... maybe - but I bet (almost:) ) NOONE trains those to make them more effective.

Paige - the main purpose of kicking and punching is not to HURT and cause pain but to damage and incapacitate thus making the opponent unable to fight (knocking him out, damaging a leg to restrict movement etc). Arm bar incapacitates and arm. Choke is all a different matter. With choke you want to put a person to sleep so he leaves you alone:)

Also pain tolerance in easy training and in fight is very different. Yes in training the guy jumped off and ran. I think that in even hard sparring in training session he wouldn't do that... just cringe and finish the choke.

And James - that "choice" is not unique to Aikido... a wrestler might dump someone on their head on the concrete OR take a hold and squeeze until they give up. A BJJ'er might break someones arms and legs OR positionally dominate and girlslap them until they give up. A boxer might totally destroy someones face and knock him out cold OR give a medium punch to the stomach to let the "funmaker" know of his mistake.

What is different between Aikido and the other examples I mentioned is that in Aikido usually NOR does one train to pinch and fool around NOR does one actually train to take someone out in the sense that wrestler/judoka/bjjers/boxers/thaiboxers/mma'ers etc do.

Ron Tisdale
10-12-2005, 07:54 AM
Jorgan hit the nail on the head...again. Having wrestled, I *know* that pinching someone athletic and determined is going to piss them off. If you can't handle yourself without it, adding it to an already weak arsenal is not going to get the desired results.

Going after integuements is a good tactic when combined with other skills...but it takes hand and finger strength...if you don't train that, it probably won't have the desired affect.

And as always, if the other person is positionally dominating you, in standup or on the ground, who is going to be in the best position to use such tactics? If you start, be prepared for the opponant to continue in that vein.

Best,
Ron

James Davis
10-12-2005, 12:02 PM
Some other circumstances that might dictate what your response is could include (but not be limited to):

Are there witnesses? Would they perceive your actions as "taking it to the next level" when the other guy was "just messing around"?

Where are you? If you're still in high school and you visibly slap someone, even lightly, you're getting punished for fighting because of most schools' draconian penalties for kids who defend themselves. :disgust:

If you proceed to strike someone or choke them out in front of a bunch of people, you might be getting contacted by a personal injury attorney that isn't interested in how it started, but in how his "client's life has been forever and irrevocably changed by your excessive force" or some such crap. :disgust:

Sueing someone to get rich is practically the new American Dream. Watch yourselves! Witnesses aren't always neutral! :eek:

tgibbs@bu.edu
10-18-2005, 12:32 PM
The one time that somebody actually did this to me, I responded by throwing my legs up and over my head as I felt my feet leave the ground. Nothing I'd ever practiced; it just felt like the right thing to do at the time. The result was that he went over backwards, losing his grip, and I landed on my feet (in effect completing a backflip) standing right behind his head.

In practice situations the somewhat less radical tactic of sticking one's legs out in front as if sitting seems to be effective. One can pump one's legs in time with his attempted compensations to amplify the oscillations in his body. Even a child doing this can be very hard to hold.

aikigirl10
10-18-2005, 12:57 PM
Paige - the main purpose of kicking and punching is not to HURT and cause pain but to damage and incapacitate thus making the opponent unable to fight (knocking him out, damaging a leg to restrict movement etc). Arm bar incapacitates and arm. Choke is all a different matter. With choke you want to put a person to sleep so he leaves you alone:)


Damage and incapacitate.... hmmm those sound like fancy words for hurt.

The pinch is not meant to give the guy a blood clot. Its meant as a distraction. If the guy is choking u a pinch may be the only thing you can really pull off at the moment and it does work if they dont expect. The distraction can then allow you to "damage and incapacitate" your opponent.

Also pain tolerance in easy training and in fight is very different. Yes in training the guy jumped off and ran. I think that in even hard sparring in training session he wouldn't do that... just cringe and finish the choke.

Pain is still felt whether you are "hard sparring" or "easily training". Trust me, i know what sparring is all about and i've seen tricks liek this work during "hard sparring". What makes them work is letting go of your manly ego long enough to try it out.
;)

aikigirl10
10-18-2005, 01:02 PM
Main Entry: hurt
Part of Speech: verb 1
Definition: cause pain
Synonyms: abuse, ache, afflict, ail, be sore, be tender, belt, bite, blemish, bruise, burn, cramp, cut, cut up,damage, disable, do violence, flail, flog, harm, impair, injure, kick, lacerate, lash, maltreat, mar, maul, mess up, nip, pain, pierce, pinch, pommel, prick, punch, puncture, punish, rough up, shake up, slap, slug, smart, spank, spoil, squeeze, stab, sting, tear, throb, torment, torture, total, trouble, wax, whack, whip, wing, wound, wrack up, wring, zing

heres the link...http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=hurt

aikigirl10
10-18-2005, 01:07 PM
Heres another one...

Main Entry: incapacitate
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: cripple
Synonyms: clip wings, cripple, damage, disable, disarm, disenable, disqualify, hamstring, hinder, hog-tie, hurt, immobilize, lame, lay up, maim, paralyze, prostrate, queer, take out, undermine, weaken

link.....http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=incapacitate

Trish Greene
10-18-2005, 01:20 PM
Don't resist, it will confuse the heck out of your attacker and cause you to be dead weight throwing him off balance. Your attacker will have to change his grip on you at that point. You should be able to move a bit freer during his grip change. At that point formulate your escape!

Ron Tisdale
10-18-2005, 02:30 PM
Pain is still felt whether you are "hard sparring" or "easily training". Trust me, i know what sparring is all about and i've seen tricks liek this work during "hard sparring". What makes them work is letting go of your manly ego long enough to try it out.

I'm sorry, I'll have to trust my own experience first...I've never seen this do anything except piss off a determined opponant in 'hard sparing'. And it had nothing to do with "manly egos". Now, if I *really* want an @ss whupping in wrestling, all I had to do was pinch the guy.

Best,
Ron (got my @ss whupped good enough as it was) :)

Kevin Leavitt
10-18-2005, 02:36 PM
Pinching certainly will work in the right timing or circumstance as a distractor. That said, I would not rely on this if I were in a position of disadvantage as I tend to think I have more important issues at hand to minimize on coming danger and therefore will use my limited time to work on something that has a more proactive outcome than pinching.

I tend to agree with Ron about just pissing someone off worse, and if you are "sparring" then it really is a cheap thing to do and you deserve whatever ear boxing or nose shove, or elbow in the corner of your jaw or chest you just earned.

aikigirl10
10-18-2005, 03:01 PM
I'm sorry, I'll have to trust my own experience first...I've never seen this do anything except piss off a determined opponant in 'hard sparing'. And it had nothing to do with "manly egos". Now, if I *really* want an @ss whupping in wrestling, all I had to do was pinch the guy.

Best,
Ron (got my @ss whupped good enough as it was) :)

Didnt know we were talking about wrestling ... :confused:

The only sparring that i have experience with is in shaolin kung fu where pretty much anything goes except holds, arm bars, and knee traps. I've seen people use pinching, grinding knuckles into ribs, poking, spear hands, tricks like this in order to get someone off of them during ground fighting, because they encourage u to stay on your feet. Im not saying the whole fight consists of pinching or that anyone solely relys on it. Only very rarely do u see it even happen. But when someones straddling you and trying to punch you in the face , it can be useful, and as far as i know not illegal.

This can go for real life situations as well.

Maybe this will clear things up. Again im not saying u should solely rely on pinching , im saying it can be useful if used at the right time and place.

-Paige

Ron Tisdale
10-18-2005, 04:11 PM
The only sparring that i have experience with is in shaolin kung fu where pretty much anything goes except holds, arm bars, and knee traps.

Hmm...in terms of grappling on the ground...what exactly does that leave?

My experience in kung fu was Hung Gar...no ground grappling that I remember at all. In terms of grappling: wrestling, a tiny bit of judo, some bjj with friends, nothing official. I'm excluding aikido from ground grappling experience for obvious reasons. But my conclusions are very different from yours.

Best,
Ron (perhaps I'm being naive?)

aikigirl10
10-18-2005, 04:44 PM
But when someones straddling you and trying to punch you in the face , it can be useful, and as far as i know not illegal.

-Paige

did u skip over this part of my post?

James Davis
10-19-2005, 04:51 PM
To me, it all depends on who the attacker is and what his intentions are. If you're in a training hall, practice your techniques. If you're somewhere else and don't know who's grabbed you, do WHATEVER IT TAKES. The guy's already grabbed me; why should I care if my pinching him pisses him off? He's already grabbed me; obviously our relationship is already sketchy. :rolleyes: If all they've done is grabbed me from behind, why resort to immediately kicking the crap out of them?

I'll go along with the idea of a pinch pissing off an attacker - after you let go. If you pinch them in the correct spot and, uh, DON'T let go, they might very well be compliant and eager to please. ;) If not, try twisting. :crazy:

Any daughter of mine is gonna know how to pinch the dogcrap out of some punk kid's armpit if he gets fresh with her, but she'll also know how to toss a guy down a flight of stairs if he pulls a knife.

Guys, I promise if a pinch is what gets you home alive, I won't call you wussy for having used it. Who cares HOW you survive and get home?

For those of you experimenting with pinching your own armpit to see if it hurts, consider this:
1. You're NOT trying to twist free a bit of flesh.
2. You can't tickle yourself either.

andylucas
10-19-2005, 07:11 PM
Sorry I brought up the atemi thats all it is, its not going to take a man down to the ground but it works, maybe enough to get away, at least loosen a grip.
Its taught by the police academy in two county's here. how do I know? I train with the cops who teach there,
like was said, if you pissed someone off to the point they've grabbed you so what because you pinched them there going to get more upset I'm not concerned about there feelings.
If no one thinks this will work don't use it, no harm no foul .

pinching, head butting,thumb in the eyes,and bitting happens in school wrestling believe it or not...maybe not in your area, but it does here.

I wouldn't practice pinching as a part of my regular training though, I think you 'll run out of friends.

mathewjgano
10-21-2005, 07:16 PM
[QUOTE=Andy Lucas]Sorry I brought up the atemi thats all it is, its not going to take a man down to the ground...
pinching, head butting,thumb in the eyes,and bitting happens in school wrestling believe it or not...maybe not in your area, but it does here.
QUOTE]
Pinching can be quite effective against some people. The wrestlers at my highschool would pinch the inside of the thigh if they got the chance, and we've practiced giving a little pinch just under the arm-pit on the tricept at my dojo before (against a frontal grab of the collar). Against your average person it'll make a difference, even if it turns out to be a slight one...but sometimes that's all it takes. It seems to me like it would be hard to pinch the inside of the leg from a bear-hug, but if you can do it... :D give'em a pinch to grow an inch!
It's a good point you make that something such as that is only part of what's going on. The rest of your body should be doing something too.
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
10-21-2005, 07:24 PM
pinching, head butting,thumb in the eyes,and bitting happens in school wrestling believe it or not...maybe not in your area, but it does here.
The wrestling coach used to tell a story about how he was told, if he had to get out of a hold, to grab his opponant's testicles and squeeze. So he was in a situation where he was losing and suddenly a pair of testicles appeared. He grabbed ahold as hard as he could only to find a vice-like grip on his own which caused him to violently wriggle out of the hold. Turns out it works just as well when you squeeze your own...only...um...a bit more painfull. I recommend a different method though :eek:

aikijudojoe
10-26-2005, 08:13 AM
Though not an aikido technique, from but from juijutsu, leg entanglement works very well when you are being picked up. Circle your leg between theirs and grapevine his which will prevent him from fully lifting you.

Ed Shockley
11-30-2005, 11:18 AM
The bear hug is usually a step in an ongoing attack. Either someone is holding you for another attacker or they are preparing to do something more aggressive. (Throw you down, over a railing, into a van etc.) If there is no second attacker then there will be another opportunity post bear hug to subdue the assailant. Still, it's best not to get both arms pinned and lifted into the air. When I hear it described that way I imagine that I have to be pretty spaced out to end up in the position in the first place.