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dan guthrie
08-21-2005, 11:06 PM
I thought I'd start a new thread rather than hijack the existing "politics in Aikido practice" thread.

I don't like it when people discuss politics in the dojo. I've learned it's unlikely to help and very likely to cause trouble, just like discussing religion.
I have a pretty good idea what some of my fellow aikidoka's political leanings are. I've tried very hard to keep mine a secret.

Am I the only one who feels this way?



p.s. The first person who divulges their politics in this thread is "it."

Mashu
08-21-2005, 11:40 PM
Am I the only one who feels this way?

I hope not. When one thing becomes two it's usually bad. Leave the politics, the buy the hemp weapons bags designed by Sally Two Bears, and support the preservation of the spotted horny toed badger stuff outside the dojo please. :)

markwalsh
08-21-2005, 11:54 PM
Politics seems badly polarized in the States at the moment, so I can see why not bringing it up can keep the peace.

This is less of an issue in the UK where ALL politicians are regarded as scum :)

Joe Bowen
08-22-2005, 12:18 AM
...Leave the politics, the buy the hemp weapons bags designed by Sally Two Bears, and support the preservation of the spotted horny toed badger stuff outside the dojo please. :)

Does this qualify as declaring your political ideas against these? Does that make you "it"? :D

I agree with leaving the politics and religion outside the dojo. I won't discuss politics or religion unless you are willing to by the beer....and lots of it.... :D

Mashu
08-22-2005, 12:35 AM
I have nothing against saving the great northern farting llamas of Ecuador. I just want as little distraction as possible where I train. Even so far as saying that sometimes having dojo mates as friends can be a detriment. I liked training in Japan because many of the distractions found in Western dojo were happily absent. If I wanted to know more about the spiritual side of Aikido or what other members thought about politics or other things I had to make an effort to find out. Usually over tea or many beers. :)

Joe Bowen
08-22-2005, 03:24 AM
I have nothing against saving the great northern farting llamas of Ecuador. I just want as little distraction as possible where I train....If I wanted to know more about the spiritual side of Aikido or what other members thought about politics or other things I had to make an effort to find out. Usually over tea or many beers. :)

Ok, so maybe you're not it. Sound philosophy could not agree more....

David Yap
08-22-2005, 04:26 AM
Hi all,

When I first started to train in 1993, aikido to me was just aikido. As far as I was concerned then, Morihei Ueshiba was the founder of the art and K Tohei was his senior disciple and the chief instructor in Tokyo. Didn't know there was a Yoshinkan or other kan/ryu of aikido. How ignorant but bliss was I then with the training? The books that I had then "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" and "This is Aikido" didn't mentioned such things as they were written in the 60's. I enjoyed the classes and my first instructor never talk about politics and such things. All (ignorance and bliss) soon came to end when an association was formed and instructors were rotated.

I do agree that politics don't belong in the dojo and I would add that it is the instructors' responsibilities to keep them out at all means.

Still happy training (and half-blind to politics)

David Y

Roban
08-22-2005, 04:35 AM
I would have thought if people are making time at the dojo to discuss anything then that's a waste of good training time!

Rob

grondahl
08-22-2005, 06:05 AM
Im a little bit confused regarding this thread actually.
It goes without saying that you dont talk about politics during training.
But you actually find it disturbing if people discuss different subjucts such as music, movies, politics, etc in the dressingroom or sauna after practice?

KamiKaze_Evolution
08-22-2005, 08:28 AM
Hi all,

When I first started to train in 1993, aikido to me was just aikido. As far as I was concerned then, Morihei Ueshiba was the founder of the art and K Tohei was his senior disciple and the chief instructor in Tokyo. Didn't know there was a Yoshinkan or other kan/ryu of aikido. How ignorant but bliss was I then with the training? The books that I had then "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" and "This is Aikido" didn't mentioned such things as they were written in the 60's. I enjoyed the classes and my first instructor never talk about politics and such things. All (ignorance and bliss) soon came to end when an association was formed and instructors were rotated.

I do agree that politics don't belong in the dojo and I would add that it is the instructors' responsibilities to keep them out at all means.

Still happy training (and half-blind to politics)

David Y

You're right, i'm also don't bother about these things. No wonder am i keiko in Aikikai Malaysia or MAA, at least i've very enjoy while keiko. That's useless to argue about such things, very harmness isn't it? I belief that you will agree it, but sorry if i talk some sensitive issues here.

Charles Hill
08-22-2005, 09:15 AM
I liked training in Japan because many of the distractions found in Western dojo were happily absent.

Sasaki Shihan at the Aikikai Honbu dojo constantly talks politics in class.

Charles Hill

David Yap
08-22-2005, 09:57 PM
Sasaki Shihan at the Aikikai Honbu dojo constantly talks politics in class.

Charles Hill

Hi Charles,

Just curious. Aikikai politics, aikido politics or just politics in general??? :rolleyes:

Regards

David Y

Jeanne Shepard
08-23-2005, 12:15 AM
How 'bout dojo politics!?

Jeanne

Tim Ruijs
08-23-2005, 04:11 AM
Time at the dojo is precious as it is. Obviously there is no room for politics, chit-chat or what have you on the tatami. As was suggested above, simply have a drink after practice and discuss whatever you want amongst friends. Before practice these discussions tend to leave the dressing room and continue on the tatami, which I consider bad practice.
In case the sensei wishes to discuss (aikido related) politics, it should occur outside regular classes as not every student may have an ear for it.

Charles Hill
08-23-2005, 08:34 AM
Hi David,

Sasaki Shihan talks regular politics. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say about Koizumi's recent apology and about visits to the Yasukuni shrine (where Japanese soldiers executed for war crimes were interred.) He talks a LOT in class. What he says is sometimes hard to stomach, but he has one of the most beautiful iriminage throws I have ever seen, so I often attended his class when I was living in Tokyo.

Charles

dan guthrie
08-23-2005, 11:57 PM
Hi David,

Sasaki Shihan talks regular politics. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say about Koizumi's recent apology and about visits to the Yasukuni shrine (where Japanese soldiers executed for war crimes were interred.) He talks a LOT in class. What he says is sometimes hard to stomach, but he has one of the most beautiful iriminage throws I have ever seen, so I often attended his class when I was living in Tokyo.

Charles

My point is exactly this: how much better your training would have been without the politics.

I should add that this isn't a problem in any dojo I've ever been in. It just occurred to me after reading the other "political" thread. I thought about raising the subject of Osensei's politics in the dojo.

:yuck:

swchiro
08-24-2005, 12:22 AM
as an added thing for people to read....Politics do not belong in the work place, dojo, or bedroom....but, if you are not a loyal american who believes in our American way, get out of my country, state, city, and dojo!...Period!

PeterR
08-24-2005, 12:26 AM
So much for my dojo visit. :D

sullivanw
08-24-2005, 02:54 AM
I am of the mind that political debates don't belong in the dojo - but no debates really do, as far as I can see. If someone says something offhand and receives a reply then both parties should agree to discuss the issue elsewhere. We go to the dojo to train, not tussle over who is ruining/saving the world. Or whatever. So, small talk OK (like we could avoid that); heated discussions not OK. And politics, hmmm... I seem to rember some old adage about avoiding discussing politics and religion in certain circumstances.

as an added thing for people to read....Politics do not belong in the work place, dojo, or bedroom....but, if you are not a loyal american who believes in our American way, get out of my country, state, city, and dojo!...Period!

Mr. Summers, respectfully, your post contains a pretty intolerant perspective. How exactly do you define "loyal american" and "our American way" ? Also, there quite likely are some Americans who would like for you to get out of 'their' country, state, etc. I am sure that there would be sound arguments on both sides, so what is the solution?

If you wish to respond, please feel free to PM me so that we don't end up derailing the thread. Or spawning another called "Politics don't belong on aikiweb!"

PeterR
08-24-2005, 02:59 AM
What about those of us who aren't even American?

p00kiethebear
08-24-2005, 03:07 AM
Yeah it's funny how "politics don't belong in the dojo"
Obviously most dojos do a good job of keeping national politics out of the training.

But.

It's disgusting how dojos have their own agendas and how much influence Aikido and other Martial Art Politics (MAPs) influence the teaching of the students and the curiculum they are taught.

Mr. Summers, respectfully, your post contains a pretty intolerant perspective. How exactly do you define "loyal american" and "our American way" ? Also, there quite likely are some Americans who would like for you to get out of 'their' country, state, etc. I am sure that there would be sound arguments on both sides, so what is the solution?

I believe he was being facetious (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=facetious)

PeterR
08-24-2005, 03:10 AM
You sure Nathan - post count of 1.

p00kiethebear
08-24-2005, 03:14 AM
I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. He seemed to be making a comment about modern politics in the same way people will jokingly say "It's okay to be gay! Just not around me!"

dyffcult
08-24-2005, 03:28 AM
Steven stated.....if you are not a loyal american who believes in our American way, get out of my country, state, city, and dojo!...

Politics do not belong in a dojo....

But I do agree with Steven's statement (up to the point of dojo) ....even if it was .... what was the word....ah yes, facetious.

My country...right or wrong. If right, to stand by it .... if wrong, to change from within.

Brenda

Adam Alexander
08-24-2005, 01:43 PM
I thought I'd start a new thread rather than hijack the existing "politics in Aikido practice" thread.

I don't like it when people discuss politics in the dojo. I've learned it's unlikely to help and very likely to cause trouble, just like discussing religion.
I have a pretty good idea what some of my fellow aikidoka's political leanings are. I've tried very hard to keep mine a secret.

Am I the only one who feels this way?



p.s. The first person who divulges their politics in this thread is "it."

In the dojo, I don't want to know about your religion, politics, kids, wife, dog, fetish, whatever.

I want to know how you throw and get thrown. I want to know how to take your balance and how you take my balance.

After class at the bar, I don't want to know about your religion, politics, kids, wife, dog, fetish, whatever.

I want to know how you think you get thrown and how you think I take a throw. I want to know how you think I took your balance and how you think you took mine.


However, if you (figuratively:)) mention politics, I will not fail to respond with a bitter crack.

swchiro
08-24-2005, 01:45 PM
Thank you Brenda Allen, You put it better than I did.... If the subject should come up anywhere..."My country...right or wrong. If right, to stand by it .... if wrong, to change from within." If you are in my dojo or anywhere on this land, you'd better respect my country, you do not have to agree with certain political jive, but must respect it..that's all I ment......yes, sex, politics, religion do not belong in the dojo. We all have different beleifs, that's what balances us as a great nation.....we are ther to train, better ourselves, improve our community, help our fellow classmates.......

sullivanw
08-24-2005, 02:57 PM
ahh yes, facetious... sorry, I can be a bit obtuse at times... :sorry:

sullivanw
08-24-2005, 03:37 PM
... also, I have run into a lot of people who don't seem to want to evaluate whether they are right of wrong, don't want to look inward and improve, just take the 'my way or the highway' attitude, and it really hits a nerve in me. It seems as if I tend to look for / expect this kind of attitude, and see it where it does not really exist. Lesson to be learned here, huh? So that's that, and to Mr. Summers, if I offended then please accept my apologies.

Pdella
08-24-2005, 03:38 PM
Thank you Brenda Allen, You put it better than I did.... If the subject should come up anywhere..."My country...right or wrong. If right, to stand by it .... if wrong, to change from within." If you are in my dojo or anywhere on this land, you'd better respect my country, you do not have to agree with certain political jive, but must respect it..that's all I ment......yes, sex, politics, religion do not belong in the dojo. We all have different beleifs, that's what balances us as a great nation.....we are ther to train, better ourselves, improve our community, help our fellow classmates.......

What do you mean I'd better respect "your country"?

You come off pretty vehemently about that. How about an example of disrespect to "your country"?

Neil Mick
08-24-2005, 04:19 PM
If you are in my dojo or anywhere on this land, you'd better respect my country, you do not have to agree with certain political jive, but must respect it..that's all I ment......yes, sex, politics, religion do not belong in the dojo. We all have different beleifs, that's what balances us as a great nation.....we are ther to train, better ourselves, improve our community, help our fellow classmates.......

#1 "Politics do not belong in the dojo"

has the opposite meaning to the declaration,

#2 "you'd better respect my country."

In #1, you state that political sentiment is not a pertinent sentiment to express, no matter what one believes.

In #2, you state--in a thinly veiled threat--that respect of your country is required, to train in your country (and by extension, your dojo).

So, which is it?

As for me, it all comes down to the little red sign hanging on the wall of Aikido West (Frank Doran Sensei's dojo), that unequivocally states:

"Shut Up and Train"

That says it all, for me. How about you, Steven?

Mashu
08-24-2005, 04:25 PM
See what happens. :)

akiy
08-24-2005, 05:35 PM
Hi folks,

Please try to stick to the original topic of politics in aikido dojo. If you wish to talk about politics in general, please do so outside of this thread.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Neil Mick
08-25-2005, 01:48 AM
Hi folks,

Please try to stick to the original topic of politics in aikido dojo. If you wish to talk about politics in general, please do so outside of this thread.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Yes.

And this brings up another point. Of course, Jun is absolutely correct in keeping us on topic. But, it seems to me a very fine line btw discussion of politics, and discussion of politics in the dojo.

Case in point: once, I wore a politically charged T-shirt to the dojo (I won't mention the subject for fear of being "it"). I really wasn't looking for confrontation--it was just something I threw on before I ran off to class. As I was leaving, a fellow doka noticed the subject of my shirt, and immediately began to parse its meaning. Instantly, we were surrounded by about a half dozen ppl, all furiously engaged in the topic. The original commentator turned to me and exclaimed: "See what you did?" "ME?" I exclaimed. The point is: sometimes ppl can't help themselves, in making a comment. And once you externalize your feelings out loud, on comes the deluge--everyone wants to add their 2 cents.

Still, I once trained at a dojo where the Sensei just could not stop talking about his views of the world, usually during warm-up's. Even tho I often agreed with his politics, I found the choice of topic distracting and annoying. In the end, I wished he'd have gone to Doran Sensei's dojo and followed the advice of that little red sign. :cool:

Chad Scott
08-25-2005, 02:21 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with the title of this thread. I can only speak for myself, but I think it's great to train side by side here in Japan with people from Britain, France, Germany, U.S., and so on (and of course Japanese) without getting into political debates on and off the mat.

I haven't had any problems with politics in such an international environment, and I hope it stays that way. Here at Aikikai Hombu, everyone seems to be willing to set aside differences and just train.

BTW, I like that motto, "Shut Up and Train." :)

xuzen
08-25-2005, 02:50 AM
In the dojo, I don't want to know about your religion, politics, kids, wife, dog, fetish, whatever.

I want to know how you throw and get thrown. I want to know how to take your balance and how you take my balance.

After class at the bar, I don't want to know about your religion, politics, kids, wife, dog, fetish, whatever.

I want to know how you think you get thrown and how you think I take a throw. I want to know how you think I took your balance and how you think you took mine.


That is it!... World, meet the first and foremost aikido fetish extraordinaire, the ever fetishly Mr Ron Jon. <chuckles> :D

Boon.

Peter Goldsbury
08-25-2005, 03:13 AM
I thought I'd start a new thread rather than hijack the existing "politics in Aikido practice" thread.

I don't like it when people discuss politics in the dojo. I've learned it's unlikely to help and very likely to cause trouble, just like discussing religion.
I have a pretty good idea what some of my fellow aikidoka's political leanings are. I've tried very hard to keep mine a secret.

Am I the only one who feels this way?



p.s. The first person who divulges their politics in this thread is "it."

I confess that I am somewhat surprised by the thread, The previous thread concerned the political backround of the Founder and I assume that it is politics, like national politics, not aikido 'politics' or dojo 'politics' that you have in mind.

I cannot believe anyone would have the time for political discussions during aikido practice.

I understand Charles Hill's reference to Sasaki Masando, but I think Sasaki Shihan is like some other Hombu shihans who are advancing in age. They talk increasingly and quite often what they talk about has only very tenuous connections to what is being practiced. I suppose they are following in the footsteps of Morihei Ueshiba, who also on occasion gave long discourses during practice, but he thought he was on a heaven-sent mission to bring order to the cosmos. In any case, the Founder talked about aikido, not politics.

Best regards,

giriasis
08-25-2005, 09:19 AM
I don't get offended if people wear a t-shirt espousing their views or have a bag or buttons stating policitical point of view. I won't get offended if you have a big yellow ribbon around you neck or an "I support Cindy" tee-shirt either. That is a matter of free speech, and I'm not going to hinder someone's free speech. I don't even get offended if a political discussion might occur off the mat but in the dojo after class, and they do occur from time to time in our dojo but not that often. Most parties invovled in the discussion usually are pretty respectful to each other's points of view and they don't erupt into a heated debate.

Neil Mick
08-25-2005, 05:20 PM
I won't get offended if you have a big yellow ribbon around you neck or an "I support Cindy" tee-shirt either.

Aha! "Tag," you're "it!" ;) You gave away your bias!

That is a matter of free speech, and I'm not going to hinder someone's free speech. I don't even get offended if a political discussion might occur off the mat but in the dojo after class, and they do occur from time to time in our dojo but not that often. Most parties invovled in the discussion usually are pretty respectful to each other's points of view and they don't erupt into a heated debate.

Yes, I agree with you, re the appropos time to discuss politics. I have a particular horror story regarding a Sensei's highly impolite response to my political views, but I have mentioned it before, and I am sure that ppl already know about it...I won't bore you with repetition.

If you haven't heard this story: just ask and I will tell it again (briefly).

Adam Alexander
08-25-2005, 05:29 PM
That is it!... World, meet the first and foremost aikido fetish extraordinaire, the ever fetishly Mr Ron Jon. <chuckles> :D

Boon.

LOL. That doesn't sound bad, does it?

mj
08-25-2005, 05:29 PM
That kind of 'brief' hasn't been discovered by science yet Neil. :D

Neil Mick
08-25-2005, 05:58 PM
That kind of 'brief' hasn't been discovered by science yet Neil. :D

Ouch! Now, was that called for?? I was trying to be nice, after all... :eek: :D ;)

mj
08-25-2005, 06:00 PM
Wow your post count just jumped from 1 to 107.

And people say I don't pay attention.

dyffcult
08-26-2005, 12:00 AM
"Shut up and train."

I love that :-)

My worst fear (well, other than backward rolls) is training with someone who needs words to understand what I am trying to show them by moving their body parts. I bend their elbow...they look at me blank. I wisper, "bend your elbow." I pull their pant leg in the direction their leg should move, they look at me blank. I look around to see if Sensei is watching and wisper, "move through, break my balance."

I hate having to talk in class :-)

Brenda

ikkitosennomusha
08-26-2005, 12:27 AM
I thought I'd start a new thread rather than hijack the existing "politics in Aikido practice" thread.

I don't like it when people discuss politics in the dojo. I've learned it's unlikely to help and very likely to cause trouble, just like discussing religion.
I have a pretty good idea what some of my fellow aikidoka's political leanings are. I've tried very hard to keep mine a secret.

Am I the only one who feels this way?



p.s. The first person who divulges their politics in this thread is "it."


I don't want to beat a dead horse but, much to my dissapointment, the former aikido dojo I trained at was horrible. My sensei, whom I considered my friend and had grown to love and care for, progressively ruined his dojo as a religious affiliation which caused a many of problems. Because I did not agree with the methodology and overall nature of practice, I was ultimately shunned from that dojo and kicked out of AAA. Why? The sensei reported me as disrespecting my superior. To my defense, I explained that prayer was customary during training and AAA protocol was not properly being followed. This is something Toyoda-shihan did not agree with either and had made personal scrutinization against while living but since his passing, the new director has let things slide.

Am I trying to be negative? No! I am only saying that a good friendship was ruined needlesly over religious concepts brought into the dojo. Not only does it make others uncomfortable but not everyone who is religious will share the same views. I am religous but do not agree with what was being conveyed. I still care for and have love for my former sensei although he does not know it and I wish him well.

Having said this, I feel that politics will result in the same fate. The dojo atmosphere has to be neutral of controverseal ideals to provide a place that is conducive to training which is the primary purpose of being present. The discussion of religion and politics should be done in a church, one's home, outside the dojo etc.