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Upyu
08-18-2005, 09:52 PM
Sup guys,

So I found this guy here in Japan that weighs around 60kgs that can do some crazy stuff.
His favorite trick is for 100kg+ guys to grab his pinky and try and break it.
Then he throws them around w/ it. :D

And yea, he can do far more than the parlor trick I mentioned above...
At one point he was recorded as dishing out 480+ kg of force from a strike w/ no windup. All of this stuff he can apply in an "alive" setting, so he'll take anything you can throw at him. :uch:

As far as the instructors background, he used to train in Daitoryu in Sagawa's Dojo before the old man kicked the bucket, and uses similar aiki training methedology, as well as some new ones you may have not experienced.

I made a thread over @ bullshido about the guy here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26158

and so far no one except for one thai boxer stepped up, but he wrote up his experience here, if you want an objective opinoin:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26158&page=10

Anyways, he's lookin for more people to join the class, preferably those in the heavier weight class, but anyone who's interested is welcome to join.

We hold class from 7-9pm in Fujimidai off of the Seibu Ikebukuro Line on Saturdays.
Either PM me, or mail me at foshizzlepizzle@hotmail.com if you want more info, or are interested in attending.
:)

ald1225
08-18-2005, 10:04 PM
Sounds like O-Sensei... I believe you, some people have skills. It would be great if you can get a video too.



Please break my finger

As a direct student of Abbe Sensei I asked one day whilst we were traveling to a seminar
"Sensei, how did you first become a student of O'Sensei and Aikido"?
He smiled as he reminisced for a few moments then told me the following story:

He said that he was a young man at the time and the Judo champion of all Japan and traveling on a crowded train across Japan to yet another Judo competion.

Sitting opposite him in the same carriage was an old man who was trying to make some conversation with him, Abbe had his eyes closed as he tried to sleep.

The old man said to him " I know who you are" Abbe Sensei replied rather modestly " everyone knows who I am, I am Kenshiro Abbe champion of all Japan" he politely asked the old man who he was, the old man replied

"I am Morihei Ueshiba founder of Aikido" Abbe Sensei nodded politely and suggested that they now try to get some sleep, the old man suddenly stuck his hand forward and offered the smallest digit to this powerfully built young man, Abbe was stunned as the old man said " please break my finger" Abbe thought I will break his neck if he doesn't go to sleep, he was now becoming irritated by this old man, he immediately grasped the old mans finger in an attempt to shut him up, he freely admitted that in his frustration it was his intention to break the offending digit. To his total amazement he was suddenly slammed onto the carriage floor. As he lay prostrate and unable to move he knew he had to study with this master. He asked O'Sensei if he could study with him, O'Sensei agreed and Abbe stayed with O'Sensei for ten years.

O Sensei had spent many years studying various martial arts, I believe that the art of Daito-ryu and Ju-jitsu had more influence on the development of Aikido than anything else he had studied, and we know he went to Mongolia to fight and this would be the perfect opportunity to test his many skills in a real situation, so we can be in no doubt that this incredible man was a true warrior and modern Samurai.


http://searchwarp.com/swa6143.htm

NixNa
08-18-2005, 10:27 PM
Heh saw the thread on bullshitdo.net. Seems like tis jap guy is all for mma competitions, pls let me know if he really enters one.. gonna be an eye opener hoho

Upyu
08-20-2005, 08:23 AM
Hi Paige:

There's a trick you can do with your body if you relax and practice a lot. You can let a path from the ground run from your foot (or whatever has access to the ground; even your butt in a chair)
Har har, we are definitely on the same page then.
There's a guy in Tokyo that Im training under that demontrates the groundpath principal by having 100kg+ people try and break his pinky. Then he floors them with it. Parlor trick, but still pretty cool nonetheless. HIs strikes hurt like... well a mfing train hit and went through you. :confused:

Mike Sigman
08-20-2005, 08:42 AM
Har har, we are definitely on the same page then.
There's a guy in Tokyo that Im training under that demontrates the groundpath principal by having 100kg+ people try and break his pinky. Then he floors them with it. Parlor trick, but still pretty cool nonetheless. HIs strikes hurt like... well a mfing train hit and went through you. :confused:Hi Robert:

So what would you describe about how openly your teacher is showing you how to do these things? I mean it in the sense of "can you give us your take on how openly this sort of skills are (a.) displayed in the martial arts circles you're aware of and (b.) whether it is taught very openly. Obviously you must be aware that almost no westerners in the US, UK, etc., have a clear idea of even what this stuff is, much less how to do it... so my question is sort of along the lines of getting your feeling about whether Aikidoists in the West are being treated any differently than Aikidoists in Japan.

This same sort of power is used in high-level karate, jiu-jitsu, Chinese martial arts, etc., so if you have an insight that gives your impression which *includes* all these martial arts, I'd certainly be interested in hearing your take on it.

I'm frankly sort of amazed at how many "high ranked" martial artists who shrug off these ki skills as "fantasy" or some "mysterious force" not worth talking about. In other words, they're immediately letting it out of the bag that they're missing an important element in real martial arts training. How do you see that aspect?

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
08-20-2005, 09:04 AM
Har har, we are definitely on the same page then.
There's a guy in Tokyo that Im training under that demontrates the groundpath principal by having 100kg+ people try and break his pinky. Then he floors them with it. Parlor trick, but still pretty cool nonetheless. HIs strikes hurt like... well a mfing train hit and went through you. :confused: Incidentally, I haven't got a clue who Robert is, what he studies, or anything else. But we both were able to spot without any friction or BS that we both understood the same topic. The questions of "terminology", etc., didn't come up.... because when you understand the basic concepts it crosses over the ideas of martial style, etc. This was a point I've tried to make several times.

FWIW

Mike

Upyu
08-20-2005, 07:51 PM
Hi Robert:

So what would you describe about how openly your teacher is showing you how to do these things?
I'm frankly sort of amazed at how many "high ranked" martial artists who shrug off these ki skills as "fantasy" or some "mysterious force" not worth talking about. In other words, they're immediately letting it out of the bag that they're missing an important element in real martial arts training. How do you see that aspect?


Actually he demonstrates it quite freely.
And doesn't place any restriction on how you want to test him.
I made a thread on bullshido, and a Muay Thai guy wrote an account of the "feelings" he experienced.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26158&page=10

I was trying to get some more heavy weight people into the class, but so far no one's bit.
Any heavyweight guy that's been through his class gets tossed around, says "HOLY Sh%$" and then doesn't come back. I guess the training methedology is too... "boring" for them or something.

Anyways, he's one of the few I've met that will demonstrate all these "parlor trick" principals in an "alive" (using MMA nutrider terminology) setting, and still floor you.

Paige:
Just cuz your teacher is 3d dan doesnt mean he understands the finer aspects of body mechanics yet.
We had a Shihan from Yoshinkan come to our class w/ 30+ years experience get held down in Kokyuage/sage exercises by one of Akuzawa's (Instructor) first year student (who's not that big either).
He ended up writing a letter to the instructor which basically entailed him saying that "what you and I are doing are completely different, and I dont think I can start my training over at this stage, etc etc".
People need to let go of their pride...

Mike Sigman
08-20-2005, 08:24 PM
Actually he demonstrates it quite freely.
Well that's good. Those that can, do, those that can't... etc. What I'm trying to find out though, if you don't mind me being quizzical, is roughly how much he's really teaching about how to do it. For instance, Tohei and others demonstrated reasonably freely, but they sort of kept how to do it close to the vest. That's the root of the problem, in so many cases, IMO.

Your teacher sounds like a keeper. What's your perspective about him in relation *generally* to what's out there. I mean in terms of both demonstrating and teaching how to do things. Would you, as I suppose, say that it's a rarity to find a teacher as open as yours is?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Upyu
08-20-2005, 08:30 PM
Just cuz my teacher is 3rd dan doesnt mean that he
doesnt understand the finer aspects of body mechanics.

For your information i was just stating his credentials so that people can find out for theirselves whether or not they think he is 'qualified' or whatever u want to call it.

But i promise hes not stupid, and he was trained by Yamada sensei.(Morihei Ushebas grandson, or student if i'm not mistaken) AGAIN EVERYONE thank you for your concern.

And just because he was trained by Morihei Ueshibas grandson doesn't guarantee that he has that kind of "skill". Indeed, there's no guarantee that even Ueshiba's grandson has that skill.

I'm not trying to diss you, just saying that there's always a higher level. And some "high" levels might not be as "high" as you think. Then again, you're still 15, so I'm sorry if I came across a little harsh. You still got plenty of time ahead of you ;)

Mashu
08-20-2005, 08:31 PM
Hi Robert John,

Do you have any pictures or video of this teacher who can throw these people around with his pinky? Would love to see some.

senshincenter
08-20-2005, 08:41 PM
Robert,

Does your teacher teach you how to do these things? Does he say, "If you do "x," you can do this." And if so, what is "x." Does he consider "x" outside of Kihon Waza, and/or other things basic to most training programs of contemporary Aikido praxis? Do you think you could answer these questions as you are answering Mike's - please/thanks. I ask, because I feel we would need to know this before we start assuming that a given teacher is withholding information and/or is not in possession of such information for one reason or another. In other words, it seems we would have to cancel out the possibility that a given teacher such as yours does feel that he is teaching you how to these things with "x," such that the discrepancy in transmission and/or in the quality of transmission is connected to something different than the possibility of a teacher withholding information for one reason or another.

dmv

Upyu
08-20-2005, 09:18 PM
For instance, Tohei and others demonstrated reasonably freely, but they sort of kept how to do it close to the vest. That's the root of the problem, in so many cases, IMO.

Your teacher sounds like a keeper. What's your perspective about him in relation *generally* to what's out there. I mean in terms of both demonstrating and teaching how to do things. Would you, as I suppose, say that it's a rarity to find a teacher as open as yours is?


Actually he's training the class in exactly those principals and doesn't keep any "secrets" persay. In fact, the class he teaches contains zero techniques, and instead focuses on the "foundation" only. How to stand, body alignment, balance, internal balance, alignment etc. Its pretty unique, and yea he's definitly a rarity since he doesn't keep any "secrets" per say. But even then most people have a hard time keeping up.
Mike, if you're ever in the Tokyo area, definitely look me up ;) I have a feeling you'd hit it off w/ this guy.

Upyu
08-20-2005, 09:26 PM
Robert,

Does your teacher teach you how to do these things? Does he say, "If you do "x," you can do this." And if so, what is "x." Does he consider "x" outside of Kihon Waza, and/or other things basic to most training programs of contemporary Aikido praxis?
dmv

Lets put it this way. The way he looks at it, Aikido ( In general, as well as other MAs) focus on training principal through technique rather than the principal itself.
For instance, we train literally how to "stand" properly for at least a good portion of he class. While the exercises are taken from CMA training (namely variations of horse stance), they're shaven down to a much more fundamental level.
We also train what you call Kokyu Age,Sage, but shaven down eve more. Your opponent holds you down and you try and raise your hands w/out technique. That means no turning of the wrists, offing of vectors etc. Your body has to find a way to internally "reverse" the flow of energy back into your opponent.
That's only one example of course.

His training regimine is extremely simple, but hard to explain at the same time.
I'd say that the first tenant that he trains us in is simply learning how to "stand" properly. And learning how to "stack" on top of your bone structure. Becoming aware of up/down, front/back, right/left.
Or in Koryu Terminology Ten/Chi/Jin.
The training of this stuff is extremely tedious, slow, and from outward looks, boring. But internally there's a lot going on and it wears your brain down just as fast as your body ;)
I guess you could say he's training our core only at this point, and no extraneous "techniques".

senshincenter
08-20-2005, 09:30 PM
Thanks Robert - that's very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

dmv

Upyu
08-20-2005, 09:34 PM
Hi Robert John,

Do you have any pictures or video of this teacher who can throw these people around with his pinky? Would love to see some.

He's always been kinda hesitant, because a) video isn't feeling it, and b) posting that kind or parlor trick doesn't allow you to feel the principal he's trying to demonstrate. (You cant feel the body alignment, the internal power generation, etc etc)

But, he's agreed to post some stuff, and since we're having a seminar in the near future, maybe I'll get a video of him gripping a 6 foot staff w/ his pinky, while he throws two of us on the other end who're trying to push him back :freaky: That's another one of his favorite tracks =)
W/ the staff its even freakier since all the force is channeled straight back to us in a straight line. Its almost like you end up throwing your self down to the ground...

rob_liberti
08-20-2005, 09:37 PM
Are there senior students who have gotten good?

Mashu
08-20-2005, 09:37 PM
That would be something to see/feel. I definitely look forward to it.

Thanx,

Matthew

Upyu
08-20-2005, 09:42 PM
Are there senior students who have gotten good?

Well, like I said in a previous post, there was a Shihan from Yoshinkan that got held down/pushed around by one of the students who only had about a year and 4 months in his class. So yea, I'd say we're getting there. He only opened the class about 2 years ago.

Upyu
08-20-2005, 10:19 PM
I know Ushiro Sensei was doing some workshops on kokyu.... that's a start, but just because someone is showing the external exercises doesn't meant they're teaching what goes on inside. It's not going to be easy. What little I know certainly wasn't easy to obtain.

FWIW

Mike

Man.. why aren't you in Tokyo :dead: I'd love to touch hands w/ u.
Akuzawa says the exact same thing. There's plenty of CMA and internal art practicioners in Japan that do "authentic" training, but only mimic the shape, not the "essence" or "inside" movement thats going on.

I realized I didn't answer one of your other questions regarding the gap in training between the east and west.

I'd say its a fair assumption to say that most people in Japan don't get it either. In fact... the level to some degree might be even lower.
I'm talking from personal experience as well as the stories I've heard from Akuzawa.
But, there's still people with skill here and there. Akuzawa's mentor wasn't only Sagawa.
He also trained under some Jie-tai (JSDF) close combat instructor who got his body skill from Bayonette training back in the day, and had that connected "feel". He also loved to street fight and still does to this day, and if I'm not mistaken, sent two marines to the hospital three months ago during some bar brawl.
Anyways, his training w/ this particular guy coupled with Sagawa, and some extremely skilled Yagyu Shingan Ryu guy helped him formulate his training methedology today.

Not to drop another "wow" factor. But he was on TV maybe about 8 years ago, where the topic was "Kyokushin has the strongest punch". They had to reshoot the entire scene, after they made him represent "chinese martial arts", and generated about 485kg of force w/ a punch that had no wind up. (Yea, basically it was fajing, from about 5 cm away). But it gives you an idea of how much power you can generate w/ complete body structure/groundpath principal. (This is 480kg coming from a punch 5cm away from a guy that only weighs 60kg. Plus, this was 8 years ago, I don't even want to think what he can generate now)

Mike Sigman
08-21-2005, 08:33 AM
Man.. why aren't you in Tokyo :dead: I'd love to touch hands w/ u. 'Cause I'm in Colorado! If you get back to the States, let's get together. ;) ...and generated about 485kg of force w/ a punch that had no wind up. (Yea, basically it was fajing, from about 5 cm away). But it gives you an idea of how much power you can generate w/ complete body structure/groundpath principal. (This is 480kg coming from a punch 5cm away from a guy that only weighs 60kg. Plus, this was 8 years ago, I don't even want to think what he can generate now) Pretty freakin impressive. He's obviously doing some breath-type training, too. Is he teaching any of that? We may have to take this to PM. I love a good nuts-and-bolts discussion. ;)


Mike

Upyu
08-21-2005, 01:13 PM
Mike:
PMd u :)

Mike Sigman
08-23-2005, 12:34 PM
But, there's still people with skill here and there. Akuzawa's mentor wasn't only Sagawa.
He also trained under some Jie-tai (JSDF) close combat instructor who got his body skill from Bayonette training back in the day, and had that connected "feel". He also loved to street fight and still does to this day, and if I'm not mistaken, sent two marines to the hospital three months ago during some bar brawl.
Anyways, his training w/ this particular guy coupled with Sagawa, and some extremely skilled Yagyu Shingan Ryu guy helped him formulate his training methedology today. Hi Rob:

Well, after the offline chat, I'm convinced that you're getting some pretty dynamite information. I'm assuming the Sagawa you're referring to is Yukiyoshi (spelling?) Sagawa from Daito Ryu. If that's true it would be very interesting if you could ask your teacher a question. There has been some interest in where exactly Ueshiba got his internal strength knowledge. Would it be possible for you to ask your teacher about the kokyu, breathing, power exercises, etc., in Daito Ryu and what his opinion is about where Ueshiba got the body-conditioning training? There's some speculation that Ueshiba may have learned some of his stuff at the Omoto-Kyo organization. Any perspectives from your teacher would be interesting. The blunter the better. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale
08-23-2005, 01:20 PM
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=242

Best,

Ron

Mike Sigman
08-23-2005, 02:11 PM
Thanks, Ron. I notice that the speaker is using the term "aiki" in the manner that I suggested in some previous posts must be the "highest level". I didn't realize that article was there, since I haven't researched anything about Daito Ryu. Very interesting.

"Aiki" as the "skill of depriving the opponent of all his power at the instant of contact" is indeed an example of things going "according to the natural laws of the universe", which is the basis for all this "harmony" talk and which is so often misinterpretted. A "Tao" or "Do" seeks ideally for a complete blending and actualization with the natural laws of the universe.

It sounds like Sagawa's skill, and that of his student, is very high. Although of course it is always difficult to tell from an admiring article.

Best,

Mike

Upyu
08-23-2005, 04:56 PM
Hi Rob:
There has been some interest in where exactly Ueshiba got his internal strength knowledge. Would it be possible for you to ask your teacher about the kokyu, breathing, power exercises, etc., in Daito Ryu and what his opinion is about where Ueshiba got the body-conditioning training?


Sup all,

Actually I remember asking him this question at some point, and if I remember correctly Sagawa wasn't big on "teaching". Sagawa did say that the "gokui" or secret to Aiki was in the "Aiki age", I believe you guys call it Kokyu dosa? (The seated exercise).

He also placed a huge emphasis on "Shiko", the sumo exercise where they raise one leg up slowly and bring it down.

http://www.sumofr.net/photos/Shik1.jpg

I can say from personal experience that doing Shiko for over a year brings tangible results in opening the pelvic area, connecting the body, and developing "Ten"/"Chi" or Up/Down, and left/right, as well as separating the left/right axis, bringing your intent to the center axis (or the line that runs from your crown to perienium)

Supposedly Sagawa himself spent over a couple years studying at a Sumo stable and experimenting with their methods.

As for actual breathing exercises @ Sagawa's, I was under the impression that
a) they weren't really taught, and
b) (And don't take this the wrong way, this is common in all MAs I think lol) Sagawa said in not so many words that Ueshibas comprehension of Aiki in Daitoryu was sux00r.
But then again you know how those cranky old guys get, they always think they're good, but everyone around them sucks, so I wouldn't take what he purportedly said to heart. :D
As far as my impression goes, the heart of understanding "Aiki" for Sagawa lay in the Aiki age exercises, which they'd do continuously for over an hour.

We do a version of it sans any technique. Which means no offing of vectors, turning of wrists, etc. Eventually your body finds a means to hold your "structure" and send the persons force straight back into them. It's extremely frustrating at first, but like anything practice produces results.

Akuzawa can get a wrist lock on someone simply by "tapping" their wrist. The pain that shoots down your body is... um words can't describe it, and its not something you can counter since he's "locking" your center, not your wrist. :dead:

Upyu
08-25-2005, 05:12 PM
In answer to Mike's question about breathing exercises:

I asked Akuzawa yesterday whether Sagawa talked about breathing exercises in the classes he taught. Apparently he did but made the comment that breathing exercises were of no "use". But that this was not to be confused with breath work being un important. Just that the breath would naturally lead or follow from the "work" done, and that working with that was enough. Sagawa said that he'd experimented with different "breath" work, but in the end said none of it came to any good, for him, anyways.

On a different note, Akuzawa gave another demonstration, one that should be of note for anyone that's done ground work before. He was still able to "nyuryoku" (his term for aiki, zero point power, whatever you want to call it) with his back flat to the ground limbs splayed out (spread eagle like) as someone basically pinned his arm to the ground w/ full body weight. He was still able to get the center of the person that was holding him down (they were kneeling on the back of his forearm) and he literally "lifted" them up.
Maaaaaad hard....

Mike Sigman
08-25-2005, 06:59 PM
I asked Akuzawa yesterday whether Sagawa talked about breathing exercises in the classes he taught. Apparently he did but made the comment that breathing exercises were of no "use". But that this was not to be confused with breath work being un important. Just that the breath would naturally lead or follow from the "work" done, and that working with that was enough. Sagawa said that he'd experimented with different "breath" work, but in the end said none of it came to any good, for him, anyways. Thanks, Rob. That tells me a lot of what I want to know. On a different note, Akuzawa gave another demonstration, one that should be of note for anyone that's done ground work before. He was still able to "nyuryoku" (his term for aiki, zero point power, whatever you want to call it) with his back flat to the ground limbs splayed out (spread eagle like) as someone basically pinned his arm to the ground w/ full body weight. He was still able to get the center of the person that was holding him down (they were kneeling on the back of his forearm) and he literally "lifted" them up.
Maaaaaad hard.... Makes you wonder what all the worry about "stacking" and posture is about, don't it??? ;)

Mike

Upyu
08-25-2005, 07:16 PM
Well, the thing is, If you're standing then I think you do have to worry about "stacking" and posture etc in the beginning. Especially since you're positioned farther from the ground. A lot of joints are in the way...

But once you establish this path, then you can establish a path from whatever part that touches the ground? He did say that he was establishing a path from the ground from his back.
He also said Takeda Sokaku did this demo to Sagawa and Ueshiba, and both of them couldn't hold him down, despite the fact that at the time the left half of Takeda Sokaku's body was paralyzed due to a stroke? I think.
Anyways, it was apparently this kind of demo that got Sagawa to rethink his entire training methedology at the time.

Mike Sigman
08-25-2005, 08:02 PM
LOL!!!! I can't tell you how much this cracks me up, Rob. Have you gotten any of my emails??? We need to talk. mikesigman@earthlink.net :D

Mike

Upyu
08-26-2005, 09:46 PM
I was going over the description of Sagawa in one of the Aikido Journal Entries,
and one thing that struck me was that eveyone that touched him couldn't figure out where the power was coming from.
Akuzawa mentioned a similar thing saying that in the beginning you have to build up your "miki", which could be akin to the "trunk of a tree". You work to fatten it, make it stronger hardier, all the while coiling, condensing, making it denser and fatter. Then when you get to a certain level you "erase" it. So when you touch your opponent or your opponent touches you, he can't feel your core, even though its still there.

I remember when I touched him for the first time, I thought he "Might" have something but wasn't sure. It certainly wasn't obvious as when I would touch hands with my previous neijia instructor, or his top student. In fact when I took Akuzawa to my Neijia instructor, I don't think either him or his top student realized that he actually had connection. Both of them thought he "sucked" to put it lightly. Realize that both of the people I refer to are no slackers... my previous neijia instructor is well known within the NYC chinatown circles as having huge skill, and has never ever been pushed before (which Akuzawa was able to do).

Building up your core connections etc seems fairly logical, "hiding" what you have seems much much much harder to comprehend.

Anyways enough bitchin... going to training =D

rob_liberti
08-28-2005, 09:38 PM
Can he do the jo trick (against 3 people pushing as hard as they can)?

Incidentally, thanks for bringing us information about a guy who can apparently perform such skills under the pressure of live training. Not only is that unique to my experience, but you were also
appropriately friendly and respectful to all of the questions - even on bullshido where you started trouble to get attention. That is also unique to my experience. Do I understand correctly that your teacher developed this degree of ability in just a short amount of time? (I have it in my head that he's in his 30s - is that right?)

Again, Thanks! - Rob

Upyu
08-28-2005, 10:24 PM
Hahaha, yea.

Well, he does it with the Bo, (6 foot staff), and can still throw us around with it. He does say that the reason that training with the stick is so important is because the stick doesn't lie. IE, the stick only transmits power, so now matter what kind of vector-offing techniques you might try, the stick will send that power directly into you, and unless you can manipulate it "in you" appropriately you'll get thrown around.

On a side note, he'll also demonstrate with his pinky to show that its the same thing. Connection has to be present everywhere at all points in the body, in all directions (6 directions).

Me being respectful? lol
Thanks tho, I just found it ironic since one of the forum admin's said
"No comment on your teacher but you seem like a dick" :crazy:

And yes, he did "build up" these skills in a relatviely short amount of time, he's only 39, and from what I gather got the bulk of his skills(Connection/6 direction awareness/ groundpath direction/ nyuryoku or aiki or jing) in about 4 years of intensive bodyskill training.
(Sounds almost unbelieveable I know, even twice that long is fast)

Rob

PS Check the Aikijournal at
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1045
(towards the end)
, I made a post there about possibly doing a seminar in the US at somepoint in the near future, since we were thinking of getting out of the country at somepoint anyway.
May as well get the most out of a trip, right? :)

David Yap
08-29-2005, 05:00 AM
...snipped..um words can't describe it, and its not something you can counter since he's "locking" your center, not your wrist. :dead:

I knowing the feeling. I once asked Joe Thambu sensei (Yoshinkan) how to lock a big guy with nikyo when the guy already knew what you are going to do and resist 100+%. I gave him my best unbendable arm and he locked me without me realizing it. I thought it was a weight factor that he did it with ease; I weigh no more than 60 kg and Joe Thambu sensei weighs even lesser. Then he did it to guys who were twice and thrice his weight.

I forgot to ask where he learns it from (Shioda kancho or his uncle)?

best training

David Y

rob_liberti
08-29-2005, 07:01 AM
Me being respectful? lol
Thanks tho, I just found it ironic since one of the forum admin's said
"No comment on your teacher but you seem like a dick"Yeah I read all of that, but that's mild for bullshido. I've seen some people with a bit of good information being almost sadistic to people who have less (unless they kiss up enough) and you certainly haven't been like that even on bullshido. It is appreciated.

I believe I read that you have been training with him for 2 years. Do you feel that in another 2 to 6 years you'll be doing the jo-trick well? Any training advice for those of us interested in what he is teaching (who don't have access to him at present)?

Rob

Mike Sigman
08-29-2005, 08:05 AM
Yeah I've seen some people with a bit of good information being almost sadistic to people who have less (unless they kiss up enough) and you certainly haven't been like that even on bullshido. The "attitude" on Bullshido is well-known and allowed for by everyone who reads it. The "attitude" on some of the Aikido sites has been commented on by many people for many years, Rob. Try looking at both sides of the story, unless of course, you have some fixed attitude that there are no "attitudes" in Aikido. A quick for instance is why you start posting with a "stick it to someone" post about the jo-trick and "3 people pushing as hard as they can" (they didn't even do that for O-Sensei) when all you need to do is ask Rob John a question?

If you have been reading the "Hidden in Plain Sight" thread on AJ, you'll have noticed Dan Harden's wry comment about how he's tried to say something in the Aikido community for over a decade about kokyu skills and he's been blown off. You get blown off enough by a specific group of people, you develop an attitude about them. A reasonable number of people have had that same experience with the Aikido community (the first time I met Karl Geiss and told him I did Aikikai, he turned around and walked off saying "Aw, you Aikikai guys and your attitudes"... I was embarrassed about what it said), so perhaps consider that you're seeing more reaction than action and adjust accordingly.

The idea that someone has to conform to your "dojo rules" before they can talk to you is a little silly. Look on Bullshido and notice how free and bickery the exchange is without trying to get anyone to "conform" or say "if you were in my dojo I'd throw you out". Try just exchanging information rapidly like Rob does and leave the preconceptions out. You're already starting to set up the "good" and "bad" ways to discuss things for Rob, lining up what is "acceptable". Loosen up. See if you can just drop the peripherals and discuss the issues without going off into the personalities and "acceptable behaviors". The internet is not a dojo and Aikido is supposed to have some martial artists in it, not anal-retentive Dojo-cho's.

The "jo trick" is a fairly useless aside, as has been discussed numerous times... it is not a benchmark. Standard kokyu tricks ARE a benchmark. And they're pretty easy to do. Akuzawa sounds very interesting, particularly if he's being as open as he obviously is. If I was still doing Aikido, I wouldn't hesitate a moment to go see him if he wound up doing a couple of workshops in the US. Without any hesitation I'd suggest that if he comes to visit, he'd be a dynamite workshop to go to. I'd enjoy meeting him myself, time and circumstance permitting.

Rob (John).... I'm not clear on one thing. Although Akuzawa studied in Sagawa's school, I get the impression that what you guys are doing is not really formal Daito Ryu or formal Aikido at the moment, in the sense that Akuzawa may not even require people to wear gi's etc., at class (and potentially at workshops). Is that true? Would you mind expanding a bit? Thanks. [/QUOTE]

Regards,

Mike

rob_liberti
08-29-2005, 10:09 AM
Well, I admire your passion. Yeah, _I'll_ loosen up.

No one has to conform to any rules before they can write to me over the internet. They just have to conform to the rules of respect on the board, and further to what I deem is acceptable before I would write back. I thought that was obvious.

I have no "sticking it to him" agenda here. That teacher sounds like he can do amazing things, and I wanted to know how amazing and how well it transmitted to his students. I just don't see how that question would be sticking it to him.

Based on the posts I have read so far, I have the impression that if Robert John didn't agree with what I appreciated it probably wouldn't impact him all that much. What are you protecting him from exactly? I'm not trying to change him in any way, in fact I'm thanking him for being the way he is! I assume you are not protecting the right to be nearly sadistic about good information - even if you had been ignored by other people for however long, so I don't follow the problem here.

How about this: I'll read your suggested threads and I'll continue to appreciate what I want. I agree the guiys sounds great. I would love to see him in the States or Japan.

Rob
By the way, I thought you were a virtual dojo fan.

Mike Sigman
08-29-2005, 10:50 AM
The *issue* is the jo-trick, much as I hate to get away from your counselling on correct behavior. It's been discussed a few times on threads you were involved in (and including some good insights by Ellis about Terry Dobson mucking up a jo-trick demo).... no one has posited that Ueshiba was taking a push by "3 people as hard as they can push". You were there on those threads, yet you made 'as hard as they can push' a condition for your "jo trick" to Rob's teacher.

The secondary *issue* is kokyu demonstrations... why not ask something germane like "can your teacher do the 'ki tests' that Tohei uses in the Ki Society" or something like that? I have no idea if Akuzawa can or can't do something like that (it's a specialized trick, as I said) so rather than put someone on the spot, I'd probably just ask if they can do standard "ki test" things.

Again, trying to stay with the *issues* it might be worthwhile to ask Rob's teacher, via Rob, interesting questions about general kokyu skills, etc. I only had a couple of brief chats with Rob and I was satisfied that he understood what was going on and that his teacher certainly did. No conflicts, no problems, nothing. It's a fairly straightforward topic.

At the moment, the only sophisticated explorations I can see have to do with:

"is the aiki as understood by Sagawa the same as what aiki is meant to be in Aikido?" and;

"are the power-generating methods used by Akusawa Sensei and/or Sagawa Sensei the same as the power-generating method of Ueshiba?" (this is a valid topic because ki and kokyu skills involve a number of approaches that may give similar-appearing results in many cases, but which can be fairly different).

Clarification of that second question is the crux of the discussion ongoing on Aikido Journal in "Hidden in Plain Sight".

Mike

rob_liberti
08-29-2005, 11:16 AM
Alright well, about the jo-trick (much as I hate to get away from your engaging insights into defending nearly sadistic behavior): I actually made the "3 person, pushing hard..." clarification because on previous threads we were getting into 'jo-trick light' discussions and that was confusing. Like 'I could do it with a chopstick and 2 pigmies pushing in opposite directions' or something when it seemed pretty clear that we had been talking about the version we actually had a picture of.

I thought I read that this teacher was doing some amazing things from flat on his back and that the teacher's teacher didn't have too high of an opionion of Osensei's skills.. Both things gave me the impression that he might have skills beyond, and I was curious. That's the agenda. Same as before... I didn't have the assumption that Osensei was automaticaly the best at this trick to ever live. It seems like a silly assumption based on what I thought I just read. Maybe I misunderstood what I read.

This is easy enough to manage. How about you let Robert John decide what to validate with his responses? Maybe this is just my personality and then maybe you could take your own advice and put _that_ aside.

Rob

Mike Sigman
08-29-2005, 11:41 AM
I actually made the "3 person, pushing hard..." Since it was O-Sensei that made famous the "jo trick", why set higher requirements, though? From what someone has said on some thread, I get the idea that maybe Takeda Sokaku and/or Sagawa Yukiyoshi did the same trick. That's pretty danged interesting to me, if it's true. It says something about the presence of these skills in Aikido and related arts that hasn't been laid out in public, that I've ever seen. I thought I read that this teacher was doing some amazing things from flat on his back and that the teacher's teacher didn't have too high of an opionion of Osensei's skills.. I simply don't react to comments about "so-and-so wasn't any good". You hear those things all the time. Datamine. Datamine. ;)

Mike

rob_liberti
08-29-2005, 01:26 PM
If his linage can/could do similarly impressive things, and folk(s) wasn't/weren't that impressed with O'sensei ability, then it is a logical next question to ask if folks in that line could do better and how well was that aspect passed down. Whatever, peace.

Rob

Upyu
08-29-2005, 04:30 PM
Rob (John).... I'm not clear on one thing. Although Akuzawa studied in Sagawa's school, I get the impression that what you guys are doing is not really formal Daito Ryu or formal Aikido at the moment, in the sense that Akuzawa may not even require people to wear gi's etc., at class (and potentially at workshops). Is that true? Would you mind expanding a bit? Thanks.
[/QUOTE]

Nope it's neither. In fact the circles that know him in Japan don't know how to treat him since he "kind of" uses Long Fist based exercises, but then uses Koryu Body Training exercsises as well, plus DRAJJ concepts etc.
And no, no Gi's or uniforms. It's all really informal.

About Sagawa's skill, I do get the impression that his power generation had changed quite a bit from what was generally considered to be "aiki". But I say "changed", so he probably passed through that point at one time.

As for Ueshiba's skill etc, well that was only Sagawa's opinoin. And you know how those Asian teachers get, ^^; (Everyone else is ok, but I rule :D )

However, there is some validity in his statement though, and I do think that his opinoin that the "golden" age of aikido wasn't really so golden, and that Tohei's skill was only subpar might ring a bit of truth. Btw, for any reading this, I don't mean to say that Tohei and Ueshiba were by any means slackers, and that I would prolly get beaten to an inch of my life if they were still around ;)
What I think Sagawa meant to say is that, while the skills they possessed were genuine, they were by no means extraordinary and if anything should be the "norm" for someone who figured out the system. As in, they should have been the "standard" not the exception.

Certainly looking at Akuzawa and seeing in myself how fast I've been able to pick up these body skills in less than two years of training, it seems possible.

Rob:
Whether I can do 3 people in 6 years is doubtful lol, but not impossible. A lot depends on how duitifully you train your bodies core, and not get caught up in worrying about techniques etc.
This is probably where Akuzawa's teaching diverges the most from other arts in that he teaches almost zero techniques. Everything is geared towards building the body/foundation and based on principal only.
Even Yi-chuan which claims to teach based on principal, still has a fetish for certain postures etc.

The interesting thing about Akuzawa is that taking the method that he's done he can teach (and I think Mike can verify some of this from our chats) Hsing-yi, despite having no formal instruction. He can change the "shape" of his training and bam, it looks exactly like "Bagua", or the next second it looks like japanese koryu, or even Taichi/Longfist/Pigua whatever you want.

Mike:

Hahahaha, you stole the idea straight from my head :D
I already posted something on Aikidojournal about doing a seminar of sorts. Especially since he was thinking of getting out of the country for a couple of weeks anyways. Rather than be all tourist and games, Akuzawa thought it might be more interesting if he could get in contact w/ local MAists and hold some kind of seminar etc. He was thinking of seeing the Arizona/Rocky Mountain area since he was bitching that I didn't take him to that part of the US the last time we went. (He wants to see Yellowstone...lol)
But really, I think he'd be game for anywhere that's fairly interesting.


Anyone reading this thread interested in coming to something like that if he were to do it?? :)

Mike Sigman
08-29-2005, 05:19 PM
Nope it's neither. In fact the circles that know him in Japan don't know how to treat him since he "kind of" uses Long Fist based exercises, but then uses Koryu Body Training exercsises as well, plus DRAJJ concepts etc.
And no, no Gi's or uniforms. It's all really informal. I don't have any problem with that. It's results that count. Given that ki and kokyu skills are within a number of arts, it doesn't take a keiko-gi or hakama to learn them.

I remember asking several very good Chinese teachers about Yiquan one time. The general diplomatic thing they told me was sort of, "Well, this is a popular martial art right now but it has never really proved itself as a great martial art". In other words, it's the results that count and Akuzawa is showing some pretty good results and you're on the ground floor. We'll be looking at YOU to make the name of Akuzawa-ryu. ;) As for Ueshiba's skill etc, well that was only Sagawa's opinoin. Whatever. As I said, I don't get into these battles. Results count. When I see someone like Abe Sensei, Sunadomari, Inabe, Shioda, etc., excel and become known as one of "Japan's premier martial artist", then I acknowledge success. I don't worry about whoever doesn't make it. Ueshiba made it. What I think Sagawa meant to say is that, while the skills they possessed were genuine, they were by no means extraordinary and if anything should be the "norm" for someone who figured out the system. As in, they should have been the "standard" not the exception. Fair enough. You want the rep, you gotta step up Even Yi-chuan which claims to teach based on principal, still has a fetish for certain postures etc Actually, now that I see what they're doing, their "postures" are pretty logical. Akuzawa thought it might be more interesting if he could get in contact w/ local MAists and hold some kind of seminar etc. He was thinking of seeing the Arizona/Rocky Mountain area since he was bitching that I didn't take him to that part of the US the last time we went. (He wants to see Yellowstone...lol)
But really, I think he'd be game for anywhere that's fairly interesting. Well, mark me down as supporting the idea. I think that a lot of styles would benefit from the instruction. I think particularly Aikido and I think you ought to see if you get a few interested people from Aikido before you open it up to all styles. I'd personally like to see the really serious Aikidoists benefit from some open instruction. I have good friends in Aikido and I would rather the "edge" in ki and kokyu go to the arts that originally used ki and kokyu as a basis for technique. Keep me informed, please. If I can help in some way, I'll be more than glad to help in this unusual case.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Upyu
08-29-2005, 06:10 PM
Any training advice for those of us interested in what he is teaching (who don't have access to him at present)?


I wish I could give you advice, but far be it for me to screw up important information over a medium so imprecise as the internet :-p
The exercises he teaches, while simple, can probably still be mangled if described in words.

If anyone's interested I'd be more than willing to describe training techniques in depth via chat, PM me and we can talk :)

Posting is too tedious a medium to even try and delve into even simple descriptions.

Rob

rob_liberti
08-30-2005, 07:25 AM
Fair enough. I'll take you up on that. It's always interesting to get a sense of what other people are doing, especially if it has potential without them wanting me to kiss their ring.

Rob

Ron Tisdale
08-30-2005, 11:54 AM
Count me in for any seminar. Love to participate. Hey, I'll even volunteer my body for some crash dummy testing.

Best,
Ron

Upyu
09-07-2005, 06:34 PM
To those still reading this thread,

Originally we were in the works for having a seminar in the CO area, but the host fell through. But, seeing as a trip to the west coast is still a large possibility, does anyone have any interest in picking up the ball?

My original offer on Aikidojournal was posted as follows:

I'm going to hijack this thread quickly and pass an idea by all those reading this.
Last night I was discussing with Akuzawa(Akuzawa, (the person I'm studying under now, and who studied under Sagawa

of Daitoryu-AJJ shortly before he passed away) ) plans for our next overseas trip, the last having been NYC.

This time, rather than being all touristy and games, I asked Akuzawa if he'd be interested in showing interested parties

the body training exercises which he believes are core to developing those skills that directly pertain to the internal

arts/aiki etc, especially with regards to "Ki" and "Kokyu" skills. He did say that he'd be very interested in doing

something of the sort, so here is what I wanted to ask those of you reading this forum:

Since we were already planning to hit the Yellowstone area, I was wondering if there would be people interested

in attending such a seminar, if one were to be held in the Colorado/Arizona etc area.

I do understand the reserve most people have towards someone that they've never seen, heard, much less felt before.

Recently Tomoo Yawata was able to attend the class and touch hands with Akuzawa, and being a 3d degree in Yoshinkan,

can perhaps give an objective description of Akuzawa's teaching/power generation. Beyond that, to those that haven't yet,

there is a post here on Bullshido:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26158&page=10

that I'd say is fairly objective, especially since he comes from the ringbased sport of MuayThai(search for Luan).

I will say this much, Akuzawa does not hold anything back, and for those that venture forth may be surprised to find

how obvious these methods are, and yet how subtly they affect the body. A word of warning though, while I say these

affect the body "subtly", the methods themselves are anything but, and can be fairly rigorous ;) Hopefully Tomoo

can offer a more objective view on this later =D

Obviously I'm just testing the waters right now,

but if he does end up doing some sort of seminar, it'll be in a couple of months at the earliest.

If you are interested, or just want to shoot the wind w/ me first, mail me @ foshizzlepizzle@hotmail.com

PS
This offer now extends to the west coast area since it seems yellowstone closes in the November timeframe (which was the main reason we were going to CO in first place ^^;)

Upyu
09-17-2005, 11:11 PM
Hi guys,

For those that're interested, an Aikido Dojo in Montana has been kind enough to invite Akuzawa to do a Seminar so people can see what he has to offer.

The seminar will be held over the course of two days, November 12, 13 in Kalispell, Montana.
The content of the seminar will mostly focus on

a) Solo exercises needed to develop body structure and the "kokyu" skills that have been the subject of this board. Much of the stuff is taken from Yagyu Shingan Ryu training methedology, as well as spear training. Partner based training based on Agete or seated "Kokyuho" will be shown as well. (This is probably very different from the current aikido approach, and would be interesting for those that hope to see a different approach to developing this body skill)

He then shows how this solo/partner power training directly develops those powers common to Daitoryu and other internal arts.

b) The second day will consist of showing how the power training in the first day directly applies in a "moving" format -> free format. Some stuff that even DR people are not familiar with will be shown. Including training techniques from Koryu that are related to the gou-no-gou(剛の剛 ) training methedology.

If anyone of skill also wants to simply get a chance to see what he has to offer, that will be accomodated as well.

Interested parties email clkunzang (at) gmail (dot) com for more information.

Mashu
09-18-2005, 01:03 AM
Are these movies of Sensei Akuzawa?

http://www.filegone.com/43620050916083359/

http://www.filegone.com/30820050916084042/

http://www.filegone.com/32820050916084454/

http://www.filegone.com/39220050916085122/

http://www.filegone.com/75820050916085551/

Upyu
09-18-2005, 09:27 AM
Yes :)

They're done more or less done in an "aiki" format to demonstrate the kokyu methods in an easy to understand way (for the uke as well)

Mashu
09-18-2005, 11:40 AM
Does Akuzawa talk about any of this kind of thing?

From Bullshido:
Aun refers to the japanese concept of yin-yang. They have these badass looking statues at the temples called aun statues that're supposed to express that concept. Not that I claim to get it lol.

http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/a/aun.htm

Upyu
09-18-2005, 02:26 PM
Yup,

Actually, the post I made on Bullshido was more or less becuse I didn't want to get into the philisophical "meat" of things.
The A - un, concept is (from my experience so far) something uniquely japanese, and something that is related to the chinese in-you/yin-yang concept. In fact his whole training method is based on the "A-un" idea of "Imashime" at the points of extremity. "A-un" relates directly to the japanese koryu concepts of "Ten-Chi-Jin."
While the rambling above may at first glance seem like "esoteric" bs, it actually is very firmly grounded within the physical exercises, and relates directly to the system martially. Of course, it only begins to make sense if you do the exercises physically.

Rob

Mike Sigman
09-18-2005, 02:31 PM
Hi Rob:

Actually, I think you'll find that A-Un is just the Japanese way of saying "Om" and the "Heaven-Earth" powers derive either from Chinese or even possibly from India, ultimately. I'm not sure about the India part of the Heaven-Earth thing, but certainly "Yin Yang" and "Heaven - Earth" apply to much the same thing in the Chinese useage. "Heaven-Earth", etc., is found in the Hua Ting writings.

Regards,

Mike

Upyu
09-18-2005, 02:38 PM
Thanks for the input MIke :D

I'm a little weak on the concept of "yin yang" other than as it "traditionally" applies to Tai chi...
But Akuzawa's stressing has been making me go back and consider what the concepts mean physically, and how they affect you.
I used to consider this stuff a "side" to the systems, but lately I've realized how much you grasp these "ideas" also relates to how quickly you can bring results into practice (at least for myself anyways)

You two would most certainly hit it off thought ^^;

Rob

Mike Sigman
09-18-2005, 02:53 PM
Hi Rob:

I guese the "Yin Yang" thing is just so vague and so generally applied that I sort of shrug off applying it to any one thing. The Yin Yang god-statues of Japan apparently mean that these skills may have been pretty widespread at one time or at least considered very sacred. Since they're obviously Buddhist derived, you can follow the drift of "maybe's".

The one thought my mind keeps going back to is the Boddhidharma stuff about when these body skills came to China. From everything I'm reading, I think we may be missing when these skills came both to China and to Japan... at least it warrants a little more research. Does any of this have any substantive bearing to the discussion at hand? Only in this way..... Yin and Yang refers to Open and Close. Open is powered by the ground; Close is powered by the "weight" and the ki/fascia thing. That's why the A-Un relationship is talked about so much.

Thanks for all the great input, Rob.

Regards,

Mike

seph
10-19-2005, 08:32 AM
i would really love a link or something that could expalin to me what Ki is in depth, im a aikido nwb :D . btw i honestly believe this stuff is possible, i went to a hypnotism show once, and one of the subjects were put into a deep sonabolic trance and they were told they could hold a chair on the enbd of their finger with their arm oustretched. they did it, they were then told that they could not drop the chair, someone then sat in it and they were still holding it on the tip of their finger.

Upyu
10-19-2005, 04:32 PM
Do a search for Mike Sigman and Kokyu or Ki on this forum and I think you'll get more than enough resources to get you started.

The ongoing discussion on the Aikido Journal site is also pretty concrete in how some of the members define Kokyu/Ki skills ;)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1045

Mat Hill
11-13-2005, 09:11 AM
Hi Rob, and anyone else who's interested in this thread. Sorry about dredging it up again, but just found it by accident. I don't come here very often...

Gather from this that Akuzawa is in the States about now, so maybe there is (will be) a thread reprting on his seminar.

Anyway, I trained with Akuzawa too for about 4 months, and I've rolled hands with Rob John and another couple of Akuzawa's students frequently. The only reason I'm not at Akuzawa's now is because I work on the nights that he has his class :dead:

I've had 15 years' experience of aikido, gaining shodan ten years ago with a dojo in the UK which has all sorts of good teachers (we'll pass over the bad!) including several from security and LEOs, including LEO instructors, plus some very good weapons guys. I've also trained with one of Ueshiba's direct students in a dojo here in Japan. I have maybe 4 years' experience or so in kendo and some kenjutsu... 9 years' experience of wing chun kungfu (which for those of you who have experienced it has some similar power transfer principles to aiki) - including seminars with one of Wong Shun Leung's direct student and one of Yip Man's sons... three years tai chi, karate, etc, plus now over a year's MMA (boxing, muay thai, B/JJJ, and Graeco-Roman with an ex-world champion pro shooto fighter).

Now, I'm not giving you those credentials to blow my own trumpet or to try and convince you that I know what I'm talking about or can do any of the things my teachers can ( ;) ), but just to give you some idea that I've experienced a lot of MA, good and bad... I don't take BS, and I hope I don't give it!

Akuzawa is possibly the best teacher I've met. This is not only in terms of his ability but also his ability to transmit those skills in class. He has benefitted my wing chun principles and sharpened up my MMA core training. I have used his principles in full-contact sparring against pro-fighters and in different friendly semi-contact and Chinese style rolling hands exercises, and I have to say, I only know a tiny tiny fraction of what he does and do not claim to have any great in-depth grasp of the depths of what he teaches.

I can honestly say, any teacher of aiki-based arts would have the most to learn from him.

By the way, those who know me know I'm not given to hero-worship, and in fact I am brutally frank and somewhat rude (albeit hopefully in a good-humoured way...!) in 'real-life' if I smell a rat (eh, Rob?!).

I'm not convinced that Akuzawa's teaching are so distinct from other aiki I've come across but maybe I've been lucky in my teachers... but I have to say that where most teachers would say 'This is this principle and this is that...' and spend a long time talking about it before demonstrating it just couple of on a trained monkey (er, sorry, I mean an experienced uke...! :p :D ), Akuzawa demonstrates effectively and in a live resistance setting (although he can do it just as well from static).

For the person (Mike Sigman was it?) asking if there was any way you could practice with an aim to gaining any of Akuzawa's specific insight, I'd have to agree with Rob and say it would be next to impossible, but that if you ever did kokyuu dosa again and again a hundred or so times, without doing an unbalance/finish at the end and can translate that into a centre-to-centre connection, or a strike from your core into your opponent's centre, ie kuzushi or maybe a 'chum' in the strike... you were on the right lines of one aspect of his training.

If you can get Rob to explain the manji exercise to you (I'm going to bed and may not be back on this board for another few months!!!), that would help with the kokyuu dosa part of the training. It seems to be the core exercise reaches the parts the rowing exercise and the shomen ate and the ikkyou exercises seem to miss...

BTW FWIW I can vouch for Rob's testimony of the finger throws... well, I've never seen or experienced what I'd call a throw from Akuzawa's pinky, but I have been knocked back a good couple of feet, and have felt a similar knock-back when I tried to sweep and roundhouse his legs from under him.

Never seen the projection from a lying position either... so I'm afraid I'd have to put my sceptic's hat back on for that one even having experienced some of Akuzawa's other skills. However, my sceptic's hat is famous for being next to my dunce-cap, so if you can, get a look at this guy when he goes to the States.

As for transmission to his students, as I said, I can't go to his classes but my skills have markedly improved from practising some of his core exercises. And last time I rolled with Rob (which had been after a period of a few months of not meeting him) I have to say he had improved a whole lot. Maybe one day he'll be able to do something to me!!! :D LOL.

BTW Rob, Mike is on the money about Aun. It's the Japanese version of Om, although to confuse matters it does include a native shinto root also. The 'A' mouth position of the fudomyou and the 'Un' (closed) mouth position signify the beginning/end, alpha/omega, raijin/fuujin etc. Originally the E-To kiai of kendo came from the same root, and it can be traced not only through yin yang but also the five elements as found on the five-level stele in traditional Japanese gravestones. The 'A' then relates to earth and the 'Un' to void/air. Relating this back to breathing in many Chinese systems it completes the microcosmic orbit. If that floats your boat. You know me, I just like hitting things! :p

Upyu
11-13-2005, 03:15 PM
Long time Matt!
Good to hear you're alive and kicking :D
After all, fresh bait is always more interesting right? (jk)
MMA is starting to look really tempting now that things are starting to fall in place. But one step at a time I guess.

We're going to have to roll hands sometime in the near future ^^
I gotz some skillz 2 pwn ur newly beefed up mma ass w/
lol



About the seminar, I think a few people already wrote asking about it to which I responded, but for those that were holding their breath for the review, the thing tanked.
Or rather I should say it was postponed due to various reasons (not the smallest being a ridiculous 150$ fuel tax being imposed on international flights O_o Thank you Bush)

A seminar will definitely happen though, grrr.
I'm currently in talks of having one happen either on the west coast, or europe?? if all goes well.

And Matt,
I know you can't make it, but drag some big mma beefcake over to aunkai.
It'll make things more interesting ^^

PS
The ground projection thing isn't that hard...
Think about doing kokyu dosa, but from the ground. If you realize how to stand, it's actually a piece of cake (well not really, but you might get some new insights on the ground game). I just need some resisting opponents to refine this stuff on...
:D

DH
11-20-2005, 09:18 AM
Rob
with ground work,remember that you will not be at an advantage simply by pinning and them not being able to rise. They will be redirecting as well and if it just meets and cancels out it will be labeled "a stall." I most of todays venues you will then have to stand and re-start. As well, the cancellation of punches and being abe to absorb will be of relative value at best. At the end of the day you will need to be able to "knock out"-not stun-but knock out someone who is active and dodging and feinting, while they are attempting the same on you. Throws and locks may be easier to manage than other things but I caution you that unless you are training this way...don't go there.

If you want to make a seminar or training that is worthwhile TO YOU. Instead or just rolling out your teacher to say "here look at this." Visit the Militic camp or team quest and ask them to fight.
When you get out of hospital care. go back and train some more. When you are ready.... go back and experiment some more. I am confidant that you will arrive at something worthwhile. Whether or not it still looks like what you are doing now I will leave open. I find it very doubtful that your teacher will be able to withstand this level of sustained agression, and then......this is key Robert...be able to absorb it -and- knock out the opponent.

Aiki and body work is compelling but often the training becomes self-feeding and insular. Don't EVER make the mistake of thinking you are getting better because of what you can do to class mates.....ever. It's what you can do to those who do not know the shapes or the "feel" and who will attack you with non committed fients and unconvenional rhythms and moves that are your test of you and what you do.
If I had a nickel for every Dojo "king" and bully boy I have played with who basicaly said "What the F#$%!" I am the best in my school-you went right through me." Don't be those guys! Train outside your school wth those who like to fight.There are men who can deliver and many who cannot.
You will need capable men who are not MARTAL ARTISTS to come to your dojo, train in your dojo and be in your face- headhunting you, and training you, for years before you are ready for a world class international level of MMA challenge.

I end with one word of advice. IF you keep saying you want to use what you are doing in this_______ field of endevour. Pretty soon everyone will call you on it and ask why you are not. Exprienced MMA think very little of these aiki and body work skills. Jusifiably so! They have seen it fail before. You are not getting interest from the crowd you want because most see it for what it is-insular training-not fighting.

Quite frankly I would happily train with you on the one hand to see what you guys are doing, but I am sure that on the other hand- once you asked me to flip my switch to "on" and "actually" fight-you would be overwhelmed. Find 4 or 5 real Sh!t-kicking head-hunters with expierence and dance with them first and then keep refining.

Good luck though, and don't stop. Maybe you'll be on to something in the end. I do hope you realize I am FOR you and your teacher in what you are attempting and not panning your efforts in the least.

cheers
Dan

Upyu
11-20-2005, 05:06 PM
Rob
with ground work,remember that you will not be at an advantage simply by pinning and them not being able to rise. They will be redirecting as well and if it just meets and cancels out it will be labeled "a stall."


Sorry, seems you misunderstood what I was talking about. Not that it would take away from the main thrust of your post ^^;
The stuff that he's doing seems to make for a quicker/easier way to get submissions/locks (not just pinning) than might be available now. One more thing I might want to make clear, what he does isn't "aiki" and "aiki bodywork", though since this is an aiki forum, posting it as such makes it easier to explain.
His body work is also all for developing strikes that you can do from pretty much any position, w/little no telegraphing that can potentially knock you out.


I find it very doubtful that your teacher will be able to withstand this level of sustained agression, and then......this is key Robert...be able to absorb it -and- knock out the opponent.

Understand you skepticim, been there, and trust me, you have to meet him Btw, those videos you saw, were by no means representative of what he actually does in class :confused: )
He's already been down the MMA thing himself, and none of the Shooto peeps want to have anything to do with him.

The only reason I'm not afraid to mouth off about this is because he was/is still looking for those types of people to join the class. :D

As for the reality dose, I don't take any offense to your comments, I totally understand where your coming from. And trust me I'm nowhere near satisfied with just being able to handle a couple of kids in the Dojo that're getting ok. Even Ark (Akuzawa) is starting to push me to join a submission/shooto gym to start getting my knocks and exp. <matt?? :D >

Hopefully we'll get a chance to train at some point. I'm pretty sure you'll be in for a treat when you get to touch hands w/ him ;)

Rob

roosvelt
11-20-2005, 09:19 PM
Rob
with ground work,remember that you will not be at an advantage simply by pinning and them not being able to rise. They will be redirecting as well and if it just meets and cancels out it will be labeled "a stall." I most of todays venues you will then have to stand and re-start.
Dan

Is this the same Daniel Harden who argued about Ki with Mike Sigman in the aikidojournal.com?

You don't really believe Ki after all.

Upyu
11-20-2005, 09:34 PM
Is this the same Daniel Harden who argued about Ki with Mike Sigman in the aikidojournal.com?

You don't really believe Ki after all.

The differences in understandings about aiki/bodywork/mechanics etc is really besides the issue, and the point he brought up is a valid one (I think).

Applying any of this stuff in a live setting is a whole different beast, even if you take into account the "flipped" mindset mentioned in the Aikidojournal discussion. It still has to be applicable under pressure. There's people that possess tremendous body skill, and that can do amazing things ( in many different arts, CMA, JMA etc) within a class/dojo-geiko setting. Whether those same people can do the same in a different setting can be entirely questionable. ;)
That still doesn't detract at all from the skill level they've attained. It just means that haven't 工夫d (adapted) it to that particular venue.
And like anything else, it takes time, blood and sweat.

JM2C

eyrie
11-20-2005, 10:02 PM
Are these movies of Sensei Akuzawa?
http://www.filegone.com/43620050916083359/
http://www.filegone.com/30820050916084042/
http://www.filegone.com/32820050916084454/
http://www.filegone.com/39220050916085122/
http://www.filegone.com/75820050916085551/


filegone. Wot a stoopid name for a file sharing site. Especially when I click on the links, the files are not there. All I get is redirected back to http://www.filegone.com

None of the direct links you posted in the Bullshido thread worked either.

filegone. Where all your uploaded files are gone?... I dunno. Gone.... file gone.

DH
11-22-2005, 06:15 AM
Is this the same Daniel Harden who argued about Ki with Mike Sigman in the aikidojournal.com?

You don't really believe Ki after all.


No, actually I don't.

Mike and I weren't arguing. We were discussing/debating the correlation between the internal body work of two DR schools with the internal work of 'some" CMA arts. Discussions were over how we balance and stand, whether or not there was solo work-heck I still live it 24/7- and the use of the stick in training. By the way...overall we agreed whole heartedly and so does Rob-that the internal work is where it as.
That said, most people have no clue just what that really means. As for Ki and chi? NO I don't think its a booga, booga, energy. Rather that it is natural physical energy in the body and the use of it.

Rob
I -am- talking about the same stuff bud! No. not just pinning but the whole thing. The non-telegraphing 1" punch is a small example. Hve ya noticed many talk about it-but their punch is a fizzle? We practice hard body shots with it and I train daily on a post in sumo style. I am sure you know the power is not in the hand and thus it can be done lying down, bottom or top it also lets you set in chokes very well. I was more wandering about you in that you have to get out and fight. "Work on your chops" as it were. Too many guys do Aiki tricks with no real hope of making it something they can apply against a trained fighter.

As for terminology we can and do the "throw someone off your arm trick" while lying down, we also have them kneel on our arms (much harder) but we call it "applying aiki." It Others call it something else. the gound connection but also the "path " that is the reality. We use "Aiki" punches from static connections -it really doesn't have to be any distance away. but I would bet the way we do it internally is the same. I find it highly immprobable that we are getting the same results with drastically different methods.
My comments were only that it all needs to be done with a trained MMA fighter to gain validity. I think we agree that if ya aint...ya aint.

I am sure, or at least hopeful, we will train together as well. I just don't think I am going to be as "blown away" by Akuzawa as you may believe. Quite frankly I think it will be all too familiar. I am also sure I would be a handful for him. But I don't consider that to be a true measure as I will be doing to him what he is doing to me! ;) The reason being the reality would be our own trainng to absorb these types of punches in the body while repsponding in an equal time frame with the same punches given. I am more interested in the exchenges at full speed which is what we do. We don't block. our punch is our block and they exchanges are an interchange. We don't trap, we just strike with a misdirection. As for locks- our training to be unlockable to all efforts -to be- locked in the same manner I believe he has realized for setting locks will be interesting. As it is, we just stalemate every attempt. I have done this with all manner of people in Aikido up to 8th dans and to several in Aikijujutsu who simply could not lock me at all... period. When I let them, I simply undid it. The skills are replicable, meaning they can be taught they are just simply not well known. To this day I remain amazed at so many who keep concentating on their hands and arms-missing their real power.

As Mike Sigman noted I have been talking about this very same stuff on the net for almost ten years with many people getting pissed but right up to last month I offered my arm to an Aikidoka and simply said lock me. When they collapsed at my feet and asked what that was. I winked and said "True Aikido." When asked what rank I was in Aikido I said "I don't do Aikido."
I am thrilled that others are comng out of the wood work with body work principles as the key to undoing all this martial art "technique junkie" crap that people are focusing on every day. My hats off to ya
and I am happy to see that you were polite (like me) when you announced it and people openly slammed you for it.
cheers
Dan

dbotari
11-22-2005, 11:02 AM
Dan,

Where do you train currently? I sometimes travel to the States and would be interested in watching or training in a class (if so permitted). The conversations you, Mike and Rob have had piqued my interest in the internal arts. I've done some reading around the subject and now am interested in witnessing and feeling the techniques.

Regards,

Dan Botari

Upyu
11-22-2005, 03:22 PM
I -am- talking about the same stuff bud! No. not just pinning but the whole thing. The non-telegraphing 1" punch is a small example. Hve ya noticed many talk about it-but their punch is a fizzle? We practice hard body shots with it and I train daily on a post in sumo style. I am sure you know the power is not in the hand and thus it can be done lying down, bottom or top it also lets you set in chokes very well. I was more wandering about you in that you have to get out and fight. "Work on your chops" as it were. Too many guys do Aiki tricks with no real hope of making it something they can apply against a trained fighter.



Sup!
Didn't mean to imply that you weren't implying the same "stuff", just that I think the direction I'm headed is more or less the one you're already going down :D I thought you meant I was only interested in pinning/holding the opponent down, which,like you said is next to useless in the mentioned venues.

I totally agree with you on the tricks, and its something that's iterated in the class. (FWIW Ark doesn't teach these skills through these tricks :D He just does them occasionally to show that the stuff we're working on is the same stuff you see in xxx trick you see in xxx style) :D

But I'm glad to find out someone else out there is working the body in a similar fashion! So you do Sumo exercisesi too :D
Just curious, do you work out w/ Shiko fumi too?
I've only just started (as in a year or so into it, of doing it regularly) but I can understand why it was so valued by Sagawa.
The stick training, is it spear training? (Ark bases his strikes off of the body skill from this, tho not necessarily in form)



And the one inch/many inch etc strikes, I agree w/ you there. A lot of people talk, but not many can deliver.

Nah, I don't think you'll be blown away by Akuzawa, if like you say, you talk the talk and walk the walk :D (Btw, no slight intended)
but, you'll prolly hit it off in exchanging tanren methods etc.

The pure aiki exercises are fine for developing the bodyskill to a certain degree, But for hitting a moving target etc, I think it'd take numerous modifications to instill a "core" suitable for mma.
Akuzawa has his own methods he's experimenting with right now, (with us as his guinae pigs), but overall I think it'll be more effective in that kind of setting.

About your comment on the locks and so forth,
Btw, I was over at Abe-sensei's place a couple of weeks ago, and I have to say, no one had the "touch". Either they were really "strong" (Iwama style I think, I'm not really up to date on the different aiki branches), or a couple had structure here and there. What was most dissapointing was that no one could "break" my core, and realize I was still free to "move".
I still even severely question Abe-sensei since at the beginning of the first class he had me hold his arm, and he tried to do something (while I kept intention in my spine). Nothing happened, and after about 2-3 times of him twitching his arm, I just "fell" in the intention of keeping the class going.

I distinctly remember several of the senior students being more than slightly annoyed with me since none of their "tricks" would work. One person even went so far to say that I had too much "foward force" when I simply "equalized" and sent his force back into him during an agete exercise.

The years of training are really meaningless, its how you train, and the resulting "foundation" that your body has built up.
FWIW

Mike Sigman
11-22-2005, 04:00 PM
I don't know Rob from Adam's Offside Ox but what he's saying is straightforward and understandable in terms of these kinds of skills. He's making comments and telling *how* they're done, being careful to make sure his comments are outside of the "spinning yarns" arena. I'd like to see everyone talking in the same fashion, sooner or later. The ones that know will know who knows.

FWIW

Mike

Eddie deGuzman
11-23-2005, 01:20 AM
Hey Aikidoka,

All of the information in this thread is quite interesting. I know none of these teachers and am very unfamiliar with the ki tricks that you are all speaking off. I am even unfamiliar with many of the martial arts/venues mentioned. Many things have changed since I first left the U.S. in 1994.

I studied karate-doh and aikido in the U.S. for 10 years then came to Japan. I've studied aikido here for about 5 years or so total and a year of iaido. Before I came to Japan, there was no internet, so I am amazed at the amount of knowledge currently available and shared. I envy the new generation of martial artists.

In the dojo in which I train, my first day, I couldn't move. Not one inch when grabbed. But I was thrown quite easily. I stayed to figure out what was going on. I spoke no Japanese and learning was/is a slow process. I often thought I was being discriminated against, picked on or that they just didn't want to tell me what ki was. It was all so vague, language barrier aside. But over time, a long time, a long slow time, I have started to realize what is going on. Then again, I could just be slow.

Strictly my perspective, of course, but it seems to me, in my dojo, there are those whose style is hard, and those whose style is soft. This may sound strange since we all study together. The soft style practitioners, to me, seem to have a better understanding of ki. And the hard style practitioners, to me, have less of an understanding of ki. There are at least 6 7th dans in my dojo, my sensei being 8th. And, although he is not famous, was taught by Ueshiba the senior-ist. He is 77 years old. We are Aikikai, yet somewhat removed(the island of Kyushu).

Ki, kokyu, aiki-age, one finger throws, rising from a flat pin and no hand throws. I have seen them and felt them and, at times, have done them. (Alas, the no hand throw eludes me.) It is not a Japanese thing. I speak more Japanese now, after 11 years in Japan, and can converse fairly well. And I have asked the question almost every class, what is ki and kokyu, etc. The answer, in my dojo, is that no one really knows. Yet, still, some have come to understand how to move better, be it efficiency or manipulation of ki or something else unearthly.

There are others who have studied longer than me and they have no clue about kokyu/ki/etc. The higher ranks try to explain, but it just doesn't sink in and so they simply give up the search. Yet they continue to train. We practice in pairs and rotate after a time. There are those who practice with ki/kokyu/etc. with me, and those who do not. The former of which are fewer. There are higher ranks, too, who can do, yet don't understand and can't explain.

That said, to me, there are several things I try to work on to mimic what is being done to me. It is part physical, part internal. The words and concepts I've read here before, but everyone has 2 yen.

Posture, balance, relaxation, center, joining, harmonized movement, single point, breathing, avoidance, unbalancing, re-direction, extension, visualization, effortless movement. Not necessarily in that order. These are words that have been used to explain ki/kokyu/etc. to me.

But as you all know, it is best summed up by feeling it. And as a feeling, it is difficult to describe. For what one person feels may be described by another person in other words, concepts, visualizations, etc. With so many things going on, it's no wonder people give up trying to understand it or doubt its existence.

An open mind, a good teacher and a whole lotta mat slapping time will help.

Good journey and Happy Thanksgiving!
Eddie

Roy Dean
11-23-2005, 03:05 PM
The ones who know may know who knows, but some of us don't know much. So we need this stuff proven, or shown to us. Just as Royce Gracie proved the effectiveness of his family's Jiu-Jitsu style against a variety of styles, at full speed, with full contact, on video for all the world to see, I would have to actually see the effectiveness of these body skills against a skilled and resistant attacker. Otherwise, how can those of us who don't know learn the value of this information?

I've felt some amazing things from skilled aiki practioners over the years, but when it comes down to it, none of them would stand a chance against a Rich Franklin or George St. Pierre or BJ Penn. It's one thing to smoothly and quickly off balance an opponent, or neutralize a directed attack, or even apply a joint lock, but a fight is a continuous flow of these actions, and none guarantees a successful outcome. Skilled fighters may lose their balance, have their best techniques thwarted, and even come amazingly close to being submitted, but they can also escape inferior positions, continuously attack, and reverse submissions into submissions of their own. The (very) few clips of Akuzawa that I've seen lead me to believe that while the principles/techniques demonstrated are a good start to finishing a fight, it's a far cry from what's necessary to get the job done.

Throwing a high level judoka or wrestler with your pinky? I'd need to see it on video. A powerful short punch is a good tool, but what use would it be if you can't connect with your opponent? (see the UFC's recent main event, Rich Franklin vs. Nate Quarry. Quarry had heavy hands, and had ended his last 3 fights by first round knockout. Rich Franklin handed him the same fate, through beautiful footwork and slick combinations. Nate's one big punch never landed.)

This is an interesting topic, but I have a feeling that if Akuzawa, (or even you, Robert John, since you like to drop by schools and test out their stuff) rolled into a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu school and tested his wares, he would be featured on the next installment of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in Action Volume 3. I could be wrong though. And I'd love for it to be proven.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Upyu
11-23-2005, 05:35 PM
I would have to actually see the effectiveness of these body skills against a skilled and resistant attacker. Otherwise, how can those of us who don't know learn the value of this information?

I've felt some amazing things from skilled aiki practioners over the years, but when it comes down to it, none of them would stand a chance against a Rich Franklin or George St. Pierre or BJ Penn. It's one thing to smoothly and quickly off balance an opponent, or neutralize a directed attack, or even apply a joint lock, but a fight is a continuous flow of these actions, and none guarantees a successful outcome.

The (very) few clips of Akuzawa that I've seen lead me to believe that while the principles/techniques demonstrated are a good start to finishing a fight, it's a far cry from what's necessary to get the job done.


Let me say first, I agree with all your points. But, if you read my B.S. Posts then you'll see that I mentioned that none of those clips are representative of how he moves in an actual fight.
They're just done that way because it's the easiest to see how certain principals are kept, even in movement, striking, grappling whatever.
Another thing is, posting video of him fighting wouldn't really do much other than satisfy the video geeks that simply want to see style on style etc.
He's trying to teach a different kind of bodyskill, nothing more nothing less. Though he isn't afraid for anyone to call him on it. So if someone wants to step up onto his turf, by all means. (None of the shooto guys over here in Japan want anything to do with him. He had a bad reputation over here about 8 years back since he tended to send his full contact students to the hospital)
Basically he's been there, done that. The only reason he's being promoted is because I'm trying to get some bigger guys into our class, with the kind of experience you mention, because like you said unless you can modify and adapt your body skill for this venue, it is something that will work only under a fairly "controlled" basis.
It's not because he himself really wants to be promoted ;)

If you're ever in Tokyo Roy, you should drop by :)
I've encountered my fair share of people from TMAs that claimed that they could put up under pressure, but I always had my doubts(since I originally came from the school of hard knocks too). This guy though, you'd have to feel, and touch hands with, you'd have your doubts cleared instantaneously :D

Besides, what fun is it to just watch other people roll? Always more fun to get down and dirty yourself :p

Roy Dean
11-23-2005, 08:09 PM
"Another thing is, posting video of him fighting wouldn't really do much other than satisfy the video geeks that simply want to see style on style etc."

I would disagree. A single clip of an effective demonstration would have guys flocking to your dojo, far better than long posts on various MA websites. People flew into Gracie Torrance in California (and into Brazil, for that matter) from all over the world to learn BJJ, after the effectiveness had been shown. Actions definitely attract stronger than words...

"(None of the shooto guys over here in Japan want anything to do with him. He had a bad reputation over here about 8 years back since he tended to send his full contact students to the hospital)"

You've mentioned this a few times. And the Shooto organization didn't try to recruit him? Or Pancrase? Or Pride? They're willing to pay foreign fighters tens of thousands of dollars, and have international tryouts for their organizations, but refuse to bring in a native son because he's too dangerous? Did the Shooto guys relay this information to you? How did you hear about this?

"Besides, what fun is it to just watch other people roll? Always more fun to get down and dirty yourself"

Personally, I love watching martial arts videos. There is SO MUCH to be learned, especially if you're a visual learner, and have a solid skill base to build on. Mark Laimon, BJJ blackbelt and submission trainer to many well known MMA guys, stated that once he started watching videos of the top BJJ guys, that his own game started to soar. Much of his learning was done off videos, and for many, that's all they have. I've spent hours and hours watching and analyzing tournament footage, seeing what works for what body types, counters and reversals, etc. If you want to be a champion, or even compete at a high level, watching video is mandatory (Football, boxing, MMA, etc). Exposure is not experience, but is does increase your awareness greatly.

I must say that seeing is one thing, feeling is another. Pressure can never be seen, so any video is far from definitive.

Out of curiosity, have you ever rolled with a really good BJJ or Judo player, or a division 1 wrestler? Could these body skills be applied to those specific domains?

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Upyu
11-23-2005, 08:42 PM
I would disagree. A single clip of an effective demonstration would have guys flocking to your dojo, far better than long posts on various MA websites.

You've mentioned this a few times. And the Shooto organization didn't try to recruit him? Or Pancrase? Or Pride? They're willing to pay foreign fighters tens of thousands of dollars, and have international tryouts for their organizations, but refuse to bring in a native son because he's too dangerous? Did the Shooto guys relay this information to you? How did you hear about this?


Lol, dude I understrand your skepticism. If you touch hands with him, youll probably understand why they didnt want to recruit him. It doesnt make for a good show ( i know that sounds like a typical TMA copout). That non-withstanding, he doesnt have much interest in the mma world. For him the sport of choice is Sanda.

The kid Luan over on BS has already been over and trains regularly in MuayThai/BJJ, so his review should provide an objective viewpoint.
We have a guy that made it to the Finals in Kyokushin, and nothing he threw seemed to have much effect. His hardest shots nonwithstanding. Fortunately he stuck to the class and his strikes are already becoming more penetrating in nature.

As for myself, yea Ive rolled with fairly good amateur Judo guys (whose ground game sucks compared to BJJ i think), and I have to say, two years in his class if your body starts to "change" will probably allow you to roll with people with about twice the years in experience. Im not sa;ying he"s the "uber". But the way he trains your body will allow you to do techniques on the ground that you probably wouldnt expect from someone that doesnt train regularly on the ground.
As for the rest, div 1 wrestler etc, thats my aim ;)
Make this stuff work no matter whats thrown in your face.

Dude, we'll most likely be going by Cali in the summer, so if your game we should roll ;) Arks got an open arms policy to doing the same as well.

Funny thing about a lot of the MMAers from BS, even in Tokyo, for all their catcalling, no ones willing to call BS and show up :D
All I get from them is excuse after excuse.

Upyu
11-24-2005, 01:00 AM
PS Unless I wasn't clear enough, yes the bodyskills (as far as i've found) directly apply both in the standup & Ground game ;)

Roy Dean
11-28-2005, 12:03 PM
Robert,

I would welcome the opportunity to share techniques and roll with you, and your instructor. If you're in Southern California, San Diego is a great place to stop for a few days. Best weather in the world, and multiple Aikido dojo's, including Sunset Cliffs Aikido, San Diego Aikikai, Aikido of Mission Valley, and Jiai Aikido. With the right calls, you could probably set up a seminar, no problem.

Could be fun! Let me know if swinging by SoCal is going to be logistically possible, and drop me a line when the date draws near.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com
uchideshi@hotmail.com

Upyu
11-28-2005, 06:41 PM
Best weather in the world, and multiple Aikido dojo's, including Sunset Cliffs Aikido, San Diego Aikikai, Aikido of Mission Valley, and Jiai Aikido. With the right calls, you could probably set up a seminar, no problem.

www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com
uchideshi@hotmail.com

No arguments with you there ;) I used to goto Torrey Pines HS, I miss So Cal weather so much... mexican food, the beach, the girls :D

I definitely need to head out to So Cal by next year so I'll be in touch :cool:

Mat Hill
12-04-2005, 06:44 AM
"(None of the shooto guys over here in Japan want anything to do with him. He had a bad reputation over here about 8 years back since he tended to send his full contact students to the hospital)"

You've mentioned this a few times. And the Shooto organization didn't try to recruit him? Or Pancrase? Or Pride? They're willing to pay foreign fighters tens of thousands of dollars, and have international tryouts for their organizations, but refuse to bring in a native son because he's too dangerous? Did the Shooto guys relay this information to you? How did you hear about this?Rob mate, you didn't answer this gentleman's question. ;)

I don't want to speak for Ryan and he doesn't speak for the shooto organisation anyway by any means, but I strongly suspect that he wouldn't want to train with Akuzawa for a number of reasons;

1) He's busy at work. He teaches at Kaminari and Purebred.
2) He's busy training. He's a professional fighter, so he doesn't necessarily have time to try out something off the beaten track of proven pro-fighters' regimes. This is in some ways a shame - that he doesn't think out of his box, but in no ways indicative that he doesn't want anything to do with the likes of Akuzawa because Akuzawa is too deadly!
3) He had a bad reputation over here about 8 years back since he tended to send his full contact students to the hospital. If this is verbatim, this kind of thing is precisely why Akuzawa will not get students to stay. His skills are great, and I like him personally, but in the modern world he's a freak - an anachronism! A pro-fighter will not want to train like that because if he gets injured his career is f***ed. It's that simple. Even little injuries are going to up the insurance, and cut the number of years in the business. Shooto fighters are not in the Pride or K1 league in terms of prizes; many of them, despite being comparable in skill level to Pride, have not crossed into it yet, and the competition is fierce, so they are constantly struggling. So why would they risk training with someone who doesn't have the control or who has something to prove against sport fighters?

And since I'm being frank, in the same way many martial hobbyists will not be dedicated enough for Akuzawa. I'm no hobbyist by any means, I've put the time in, and I live it, think it, dream it, but I left his dojo because I didn't have the time to put the dedication in that he would demand, with my schedule. Although I actually go to Kaminari as often as I can, I know that if I'm injured or busy I can drop out for a couple of months if need be (as recently happened) and Ryan will say to come back when I can. He'll push me, but he won't injure me!

Mike Sigman
12-14-2005, 09:13 PM
Is this the same Daniel Harden who argued about Ki with Mike Sigman in the aikidojournal.com?

You don't really believe Ki after all.


No, actually I don't. I believe in Ki. There are some definite things that are Ki or Qi. It was an old way of thinking and describing how things worked. Some of the things were pretty interesting because even though there was not much technology in the old days, there was a LOT of study of the human body and how it worked. They found some cute tricks and labeled them under the general heading of "Ki". I've looked at those cute tricks for a number of years and they're real, they can be reproduced easily enough and they obey the laws of physics (even if they appear unusual to someone unfamiliar with them). What I DON'T believe in is the bogus "mysterious force of the universe" that so many westerners have mistakenly come up with as the definition of Ki. But because they've got the definition wrong doesn't mean that there isn't something real called "ki". People just need to find out what it is before they get too committed. ;)

Mike

DH
12-16-2005, 03:04 AM
Ki tricks are displays of physical principles.
Breath work is simply physical.
I can stand and hold a bo with two guys pushing at me and they collapse. My breathing will be not discernable
I have a new guy with a year training who can hold off a 270 pound (ten year man) pushing at him and the guy collapsed at his feet.

I will state catagorically that these skills are Japanese in origin, were school specific and were taught to me through a Japanese style. The same style that taught Ueshiba before he started Aikido. I just no longer use them that way.
I know how I do it.
I know how to teach it
I don't believe in Ki as a force.

Since these skills are not only explainabe- they are replicable. Which, by definition, means they can be taught, leads me to a conclusion. Why is it that all men -who trained in a single style- did not receive it?
It is my belief they were, and are, intentionally held back from students.

I will leave it up to history to state when, how and IF they came from China. Only recently did I discover they existed anywhere else outside of this Japanese art. I dismissed the Chinese arts all together through my own ignorance- embarassing as that is to admit. I still am learning their terminology for the same principles (like reverse breathing) which I was taught as a method that made your body feel hard to punches and kicks.
How they are displayed and what method they may be demonstrated in is school/style specific. They can be applied to anything involving the human body including everything from arm wrestling to bouldering.
We just get caught up in the displays of body work as a "martial art" power.

cheers
Dan

roosvelt
12-16-2005, 09:37 AM
I have a new guy with a year training who can hold off a 270 pound (ten year man) pushing at him and the guy collapsed at his feet.

I will state catagorically that these skills are Japanese in origin, were school specific and were taught to me through a Japanese style.



I see, you just don't like the defintion of "ki" used by some people.

What is this Japanese style? Thanks.

Ron Tisdale
12-16-2005, 02:27 PM
Daito ryu...

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
12-16-2005, 02:59 PM
I can stand and hold a bo with two guys pushing at me and they collapse. My breathing will be not discernable
I have a new guy with a year training who can hold off a 270 pound (ten year man) pushing at him and the guy collapsed at his feet. Exactly why do these guys "collapse", Dan? Do you mean that someone throws them, takes their balance away, or something along those lines. A casual reader might get the idea that since the current discussion is about Ki, somehow Ki is causing them to collapse.

Regards,

Mike "Or Maybe You Mean they Deflate?" Sigman

DH
12-16-2005, 04:36 PM
Hi Mike
I think you know about manipulating the stick through their grip. This isn't that. Depending on what I do the energy goes into their knees or into their center. Sometimes is makes them nauseas. Stick work has a much greater focus then pushing with hands or grabs. It is also more with Kokyu as a directing energy. I don't know what the CMA does but lest just say you can receive and send with direction. Again the hands on my end are light and free. Even out to finger tips holds against a strong push. I also play with just using my stomach.
The feel-if I can just use that to talk about it-is as if the guys hands are pushing with all his strength but he doesn't know why he has no power. With double chest pushing- the energy is in the center of his hands and captured there. From there you can manipulat them to simply feel like they are being drained and they collapse at your feet.
Not that you ever going to get attacked in any of these ways-but we use it for judo style grappling and to capture arms in punching as well. There they sometimes feel sick to their stomach as well. It's just a test. Nothing more nothing less. Crushing energy you already know about.
Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-16-2005, 04:48 PM
Hi Mike
I think you know about manipulating the stick through their grip. This isn't that. Depending on what I do the energy goes into their knees or into their center. Sometimes is makes them nauseas. Are these students of yours, Dan? I.e., do you think you would make me or someone else nauseous if I was holding the stick? I've never had it happen to me, although I've seen a lot of people who say someone made them feel strange or made them go through the air, etc. Making people nauseous or making them collapse is quite a feat if you can do it anyone. I've been told I'm not sensitive enough. Even my wife says that sometimes. ;)

Mike

Mike Collins
12-16-2005, 08:16 PM
I wish you guys would create (and publicise) a seminar showing all of this stuff. I understand it may not be teachable in a short seminar, but I'd sure like to feel it. It SOUNDS like baloney to me, but my own teacher does stuff I can't yet understand, so it might just be valid.

I tend to skepticism. But I'm teachable if I feel something that makes me believe.

DH
12-16-2005, 09:29 PM
Mike Collins
1. It is valid as hell. It has been done for decades and filmed and witneessed. You are just getting to talk with normal folk who are doing it and not playing the sensei game. Well, we aren't really saying what we're doing though are we?
I think those of us who do this will tell you we understand your sceptisism. I didn't believe it either when it was being done to me.. But on the flip side you were not here during all of our failures and frustratons either.
To be clear, the things I am talkng about just now are training tools they are not fighting. The body work has serious benefits in fighting -but none of it is as prfound as the training exercises. I doubt you will get anyone who has done serious internal work to be bragging all over the place about it. Its just hard work bud.
Looong and hard with many failures. I don't mind saying that we are still like kids, very enthusiatic equally with guys who are coming along and wi5th our own successes. There is simply no ego about it. How can there be after all the work! It isnlt handed to anyone. And the flip side of that is that we are not really driven to prove it.
I mean this nicely so don't take it wrong.
I really don't give a S!#$ if no one believes it. I have been doing this and openly talking about it for 15 years. Anyone who doubts it all I say is "Oh well."
We don't advertise. Don't accept students- so other than a few people on the net, no one knows and no one cares anyway.


Mike Sigman
Yeah pretty much only my guys for certain things. The queasiness doesn't always happen-its occasional. We train for hours on end so that may be a contributing factor. We have traned from 7:30 till 12:30 at night many times. we just get going and innovate. Some things still vex me. I still get frustrated that at times it isn't "instant on" and it gets better as the night progresses. Talk to me in another ten years maybe.
But with both the training side and the martial side I am getting more and more pleased with things. I have had friends at the gym push, pile drive ad shove me, and have freestyes with varioud wrestlers ans fighters for years now and am pleased with the results. But I have always been convinced that with connection exercises there is a trained response feed-back loop that gets artificial. Its one of the reasons I keep blowing things up and changing them to continue to get new input. two weeks ago I started punching and connecting forward and having guys pile drive in from the side. then doping a connection through people. In others words one guy (A) is shoving at another (B) and I grab (B) and manipulate (A) throughthe body of (B) and so on.
The side impact work was surpisingly very abrupt and devestating to the pusher. This worked well with volunteers also.

Have you noticed that when both parties are centering and are "on "it is vastly different game? When I am not pushing but competing with gripos for control it can just get stupid looking..nothing happens.... then wham. Sometimes nothig happens at all and we just stalemate. It is quite different having someone use natural muscle and more fun having untrained people react. I had a Boxer play with me a couple of months ago who's center was surprisingly easy to grab and control through his punches. I like failing with certain things, and experiementing with others. It prevents boredom and keeps the edge going.
Anyway...enough one-sided conversation you never offer mch feedback and it was what I was asking for in the first place ;)
The rossetta stone was not needed ....just a curiosity. Though it is always pleasant chatting with you. We should just get together and compare notes or exercises some day.

cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-16-2005, 10:08 PM
Yeah pretty much only my guys for certain things. The queasiness doesn't always happen-its occasional. My only real comment about this, Dan, is that it's difficult to reconcile "reproducible" with "occasional". ;) Have you noticed that when both parties are centering and are "on "it is vastly different game? I've noticed that a lot of stuff that works with people who are used to working with others doesn't work outside against experienced people. That's why I very seldom will say what I can do or think I can do... it's come back to haunt me and others, as well. ;) Anyway...enough one-sided conversation you never offer mch feedback and it was what I was asking for in the first place ;)
The rossetta stone was not needed ....just a curiosity. Though it is always pleasant chatting with you. We should just get together and compare notes or exercises some day. Heck, I think I talk too much, as it is. However, a lot of what I say is geared toward eliciting information, ultimately, although I think I've given at least as much as I've gotten. But I've learned a lot of things and gotten a lot of leads this year. It's been a very productive year for new information. :)

Regards,

Mike

DH
12-17-2005, 06:17 AM
Oh you kill me............I hope you are as much fun in person as you are here. I hope you realize you are more transparent then you think you are. :D I am taking the bait for others who are reading as well

OK.... I'll bite.... :rolleyes: .
The cramping -which you have been told about by me and others who have experienced it in this style does not always produce nausea. It is a common enough experience and we all talk about. It is very natural to say to each other --"I thought I was gong to crap myself-that was weird." However, the methodology is consistent. It is also just one way to produce a response to unlock and control their center from a push. Their pushing against something they cannot find and theirs is on a roller coaster ride.
As for discussion, openness, declarative statements and failures- many of the guys we have been yakking with or in front of these past months have known me for years-even more than several here know about. I openly talk about success, I openly talk about failure. There is no ego about it as I know that most guys in these arts cannot do this stuff or come close to it anyway.
So why talk about it?
I decided years ago to openly talk about potentials-not technique just what could be done- particularly to the Aikido community. We are "supposed" to be a group or community of artists discussing this road we are all on. Some people who have recently been nice to you and I-told me then- this training was crap. It is only now that more voices have been raised that they have finally caught on.

Here's another chomp on the bait-again for others reading. A friend of mine can recieve the push with his feet squared really well-well if I only just push. I only have been doing it in han-mi. Yet he also cannot use it martially and could not hit worth a damn-It has never failed me in the last ten years. But his prompt has sent me further in that direction. We also have methods to undo..these internal efforts. I can undo him with one hand if I so choose. He wants me to meet his teacher. So is there something in the Japanese stuff not known to the CMA guys?
Monkeys fall from trees..but they are the best climbers in the world. We keep climbing anyway. We also keep getting better. I look forward to the next 20 years.

Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-17-2005, 07:43 AM
Here's another chomp on the bait-again for others reading. A friend of mine can recieve the push with his feet squared really well-well if I only just push. I only have been doing it in han-mi. Yet he also cannot use it martially and could not hit worth a damn-It has never failed me in the last ten years. But his prompt has sent me further in that direction. He can use a certain amount of actual jin; yours is more of a brace-jin. Doesn't matter if someone can hit with it or not; that's a separate issue. We also have methods to undo..these internal efforts. I can undo him with one hand if I so choose. He wants me to meet his teacher. So is there something in the Japanese stuff not known to the CMA guys? More probably his teacher doesn't know very much. ;) Not everyone that does Japanese martial arts represents the full spectrum of knowledge in Japanese martial arts.... I don't go meet the average Aikido instructor and slam Japanese martial arts because his knowledge is limited. I don't judge Chinese martial arts by the average role-playing instructor, either. I just keep looking. Wang Hai Jun visits Boston occasionally.... you should go meet him and compare notes. ;)

Regards,

Mike

DH
12-18-2005, 09:17 PM
Braced Jin? Bracing? That’s usually the last thing they do before they are lifted from the ground, slid across the floor or thrown. Perhaps you don’t understand what I mean by a relaxed but stable and transitional core, and what I mean by not being able to find our center. If you guys are doing things that relate to bracing yourself than I'll pass................ There is nothing in that worth having. Your center will quickly be found and undone. I know that sounds declarative-but it is as simple as that. What I am talking about is another world from there. You should, at the very least, be able to establish your root and any given contact point-with everything in between free and readily available to use.
How surprising.
The ability to generate power and to hit I -do- find relevant as I also consider it indicative of understanding some other things on the inside. Overall I consider rooting as a separate but equal issue to some other things we do to control.
Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman
12-19-2005, 05:22 AM
Braced Jin? Bracing? That's usually the last thing they do before they are lifted from the ground, slid across the floor or thrown. Perhaps you don't understand what I mean by a relaxed but stable and transitional core, and what I mean by not being able to find our center. If you guys are doing things that relate to bracing yourself than I'll pass................ There is nothing in that worth having. Your center will quickly be found and undone. I know that sounds declarative-but it is as simple as that. What I am talking about is another world from there. You should, at the very least, be able to establish your root and any given contact point-with everything in between free and readily available to use.
How surprising. Well, there's nothing surprising about what I said... you appeared to be saying that a friend of yours can root with his feet squared (parallel) and that you need a hanmi stance but you're exploring how to do it with your feet parallel. I was simply telling you the only reason why that disparity would exist, Dan. The reason Tohei and others will demonstrate rooting on one leg is to show that they do not need any sort of a "brace" (i.e., it's easy to see when someone needs the back foot stuck out behind them in order to "root", no matter how "centered" they think they are.) I'm not sure why you think it's 'surprising' that I would make a basic observation like this. Do you have another explanation of why your friend roots with his feet squared and you require a stance? The ability to generate power and to hit I -do- find relevant as I also consider it indicative of understanding some other things on the inside. Overall I consider rooting as a separate but equal issue to some other things we do to control. Well, that's all I was saying, also. If your friend can root fairly well doesn't have a lot to tell us about whether he can hit. Learning and practicing your root is a separate subject from how well someone can hit. I don't practice my hitting the way I used to, so it's probably comparatively weak compared to what it was in the past. What few hits I practice nowadays tend to be full-length punches or zero-inch (hand on the target without moving the hand OR SHOULDER back) punches. But since I don't get into as many actual fights nowadays as I used to, I don't spend a lot of time doing it. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Mike Sigman
01-01-2006, 10:09 AM
I've just finished reading another person's comments about the video clips that Rob John posted showing his teacher Akuzawa demonstrating his usages of kokyu. Almost all of the the critiques I've read about Akuzawa's demo's were negative. The 'techniques' didn't look too good or 'any low-level so-and-so can do those things smoother'. Etc. I think that's the heart of the problem in Aikido and some other arts, particularly in the West... people are looking for the technique and not truly accepting the fact that there can be something there that they, in all their wisdom and experience, don't see.

A friend of mine at the Boulder Aikikai reported that the karateka, Ushiro, while doing a workshop in Boulder showed a number of kokyu usages (although my friend appeared to be looking mainly at the techniques, also). He said Ushiro said, "No kokyu, no Aikido". Actually, since Ushiro does Karate, he would have said the same thing about karate: "No kokyu, no karate". But there's a real problem with this strength-vector skill.... you can't see it unless you know what to look for and even then it's hard to see in a skilled practitioner. This form of strength is often called "the concealed strength" for this very reason.

When I watched Akuzawa's video clips, I didn't pay a lot of attention to the technique, other than to think, "he could have used spiffier techniques, but I see that he's demonstrating kokyu". I watched and decided "yes, he's using it, but his students are cooperative enough that I can't get a reading of just how strong his usage is". A few other readers on this forum have indicated the same things I saw in conversations with me. So what it boils down to is that one of the big stumbling blocks to learning about kokyu skills is (a.) finding someone who can honestly do them (a lot of people claim to use kokyu; not that many actually do) and (b.) being able to recognize what kokyu is. But it was very telling that most of the comments were about the techniques, not the way the kokyu was used. With those kinds of blinders on, there is undoubtedly a question about what's going on in the Aikido community.

"No kokyu, no Aikido".... because kokyu isn't some add-on that you choose to use or not use; it is the core strength of real Aikido, real Karate, real Japanese martial arts, real Chinese martial arts, etc. The problem is partly that it hasn't been openly taught... but the problem is also partly that many people can't see past their own noses and assume that they're seeing everything. The limit of subtlety and complexity in many martial arts, as perceived by westerners, is fairly easy to divine by anyone who has been in these martial arts for, let's say, six months. In other words, most people maybe cannot do high-level stuff, but they can 'grok' it and appreciate it, in their minds, after not even a year's work. This low appreciation of Asian martial arts is quite a bit different from what you hear from many Asians. To them, "it is very deep". Either they're dummies and westerners just pick things up quicker... or westerners are missing something about the complexities. And kokyu and ki skills are at the heart of the complexities.

Maybe Akuzawa's videos should be revisited?

FWIW

Mike

Mato-san
01-01-2006, 07:17 PM
Hi Rob,
I live a little way from Tokyo, but may join your class one day. My shihan does the same `Palour Tricks` they are very impressive but when he displays them it is for a purpose. To back up principles with what he calls `shadow training` really its the same as any of the wrist grabs, but the timing and flow of the shihans waza is perfected to such a state that he needs little effort to apply these techniques, and little "strength", I believe Tohei Sensei used shadow training a lot in his teaching style. I am all for seeing any sensei in action because all aikido is good aikido, I am 90kg and 180cm tall and my shihan has little trouble throwing me around.

Mike Sigman
01-01-2006, 07:36 PM
Fair enough, Jun.... move my post to "Open Discussions" like it has nothing to do with Aikido, but ask Hiroshi why he's inviting Ushiro Sensei, the karate instructor, back to Boulder to give a workshop at the dojo. It's your forum and you can micro-manage through what you see as Aikido, but I think you're trying to imprint your views on others (I hope that's a fair enough comment for you to leave in "Other" discussions without erasing it). When you moved Rob's discussions (this current thread in the heading) about Akuzawa and kokyu to the "other" discussions, you raised a lot of eyebrows and made a lasting impression about your views of Aikido. Even Mark Reeder got involved in the discussion. If you'd like to actively discuss the mechanics of Aikido and you have something to contribute to discussions other than micro-management, you're welcome to come onto the QiJing List to show us what you know. Anything substantive that applies to the jin/kokyy/ki discussions is welcome there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
01-01-2006, 08:17 PM
Hi Rob,
I live a little way from Tokyo, but may join your class one day. My shihan does the same `Palour Tricks` they are very impressive but when he displays them it is for a purpose. To back up principles with what he calls `shadow training` really its the same as any of the wrist grabs, but the timing and flow of the shihans waza is perfected to such a state that he needs little effort to apply these techniques, and little "strength", I believe Tohei Sensei used shadow training a lot in his teaching style. I am all for seeing any sensei in action because all aikido is good aikido, I am 90kg and 180cm tall and my shihan has little trouble throwing me around.

Hi Mathew:

I think you've got a pretty healthy approach... you're sceptical, but you're willing to look. I hope that you'll report your findings and impressions as well. There's a tendency in Aikido to protect the status quo, but as long as some people are willing to get out and look, appraise, and be appraised themselves, things will continue to improve. The people who work to guard the status quo and their own positions within it are nothing but a detriment to the arts they supposedly practice, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mato-san
01-02-2006, 01:55 AM
What I am getting at is that I also am thrown around by sensei with his pinky, not just as a parlour trick but as a shadow of a wrist technique, to demonstrate that the power comes not from the strenght in the limb but in the timing and physics of the technique! I am by no means a sceptic.
Its not super human its shihan.

Upyu
01-02-2006, 06:00 AM
What I am getting at is that I also am thrown around by sensei with his pinky, not just as a parlour trick but as a shadow of a wrist technique, to demonstrate that the power comes not from the strenght in the limb but in the timing and physics of the technique! I am by no means a sceptic.
Its not super human its shihan.

Sup Matt ;)
It's not timing, and its not perfection of the technique. In fact his technique is rather "rough" in the videos because he elected to not put those factors (timing/clever use of simple, ie non-groundpath vectors)

But, it has to be felt to be understood(the feel is completely and utterly different) ;)
I can do this stuff to a large degree as well, and I can tell you that it probably has almost nothing to do with the "shadowing" description you gave(I used to do MAs with the emphasis you described as well. Once you touch someone with this kind of skill, you'll know pretty much who's the real deal and who's just talk).
And I don't think Ark is superhuman either. I can do the finger "trick" with my index on most amateurs now. (Thats pretty good for only two years of training I think)

We'd love to have you tho, we've been hurting for big guys ^^;
Hit me up with a PM and I'll give you my contact info. ;)

PS What's funny is that a lot of people complain that the people in the video were overtly cooperative.. but there've been a lot of people that've passed through the Aunkai, get held down by some of the students who are seemingly being "cooperative". Ark just makes it look "cooperative" because of the huge gap in skill. If you touch him you'll understand :-p

Mato-san
01-02-2006, 07:00 AM
I do not know how to explain myself here, my understanding of hands on is "understood", within myself in our own dojo. I feel the power of the pinky regularly. Its sounds to me as if you are putting out challenges to the aikido world. Or my sensei is better than yours type deal.The shadow training terminology is not just applied to technique but principles too. However dont get me wrong, It sounds as if you have a great place to train. And you should continue to train under such a skilled instructor. Is your Aikido journey about becoming the next MMA champ? Is your instructor a cross training engineer?What are your goals? I am curious not being assertive. So with all due respect. And yes I would love to come to your dojo as a larger type westerner, as a guest, not as a challanger ! I think that is "the way" dont you?

Mato-san
01-02-2006, 07:18 AM
Ohh if its about challengers, I may have entered the wrong thread. Yeah I can hold my own, but I ain`t going out of my to prove it, or I would have stuck with other dabbling arts. And I am a huge fan of MMA. As a sport not a "way". Since I found Aikido I have found placid, calm and peaceful ways to a mispent youth of violence and other things not to be mentioned. My "Bushido" spirit has been proven in the past. If you know were I might be able to train with the likes of Gomi, then please shed light. Otherwise dont take me as an aggressor or over anylist of anything, Just a a lover of the way and the peace it has bought to someone who was down, out and a street scrapper, to use the term lightly. So dont get me wrong!

Mato-san
01-02-2006, 07:27 AM
Ohh yeah 1 more thing Mark you sound hard, I would like to train with you some day!

Mato-san
01-02-2006, 07:29 AM
Mike

Upyu
01-02-2006, 01:52 PM
I do not know how to explain myself here, my understanding of hands on is "understood", within myself in our own dojo. I feel the power of the pinky regularly. Its sounds to me as if you are putting out challenges to the aikido world. Or my sensei is better than yours type deal.The shadow training terminology is not just applied to technique but principles too. However dont get me wrong, It sounds as if you have a great place to train. And you should continue to train under such a skilled instructor. Is your Aikido journey about becoming the next MMA champ? Is your instructor a cross training engineer?What are your goals? I am curious not being assertive. So with all due respect. And yes I would love to come to your dojo as a larger type westerner, as a guest, not as a challanger ! I think that is "the way" dont you?

Nope it's not a challenge,Nor is it the "my teacher is better than yours".
Just an offer to feel something which you may have not felt before ;)
About your questions, No to being an MMA champ, although I am experimenting with it in that context and hope to be able to test it in the ring a some point. No and Yes to him being a cross training engineer. He's kinda unique. He doesn't care abou style, and makes his stuff work for any context (pretty bold statement, I know, its not a boast, just the way he approaches things).
Goals? That's better served in a PM discussion. But I do have my own goals and they're not relegated to the "enter the ring and win" short term deal (tho I'm not saying that' not included) ;)

Seriously tho, I meant it as a friendly offer, drop by sometime.
Ark's a friendly guy and we can all grab a couple of rounds after class(where the real training happens lol) :D

Josh Reyer
01-03-2006, 06:09 AM
I don't train with Rob and Akuzawa (since I live quite a bit aways), but on a recent trip to Tokyo I took the opportunity to have a little training session with Rob. It was a great experience that really threw a lot of light on why some things in aikido, particularly Iwama style, are the way they are. I'm still far down in terms of ability and technique in aikido, but just that one session gave me some insight on movement and, IMO, improved my aikido, if only a little.

Rob's also a great guy; nothing macho or competitive about it. I highly recommend giving Aunkai a shot, even just one demo lesson.

Mat Hill
02-19-2006, 10:26 AM
"(None of the shooto guys over here in Japan want anything to do with him. He had a bad reputation over here about 8 years back since he tended to send his full contact students to the hospital)"

You've mentioned this a few times. And the Shooto organization didn't try to recruit him? Or Pancrase? Or Pride? They're willing to pay foreign fighters tens of thousands of dollars, and have international tryouts for their organizations, but refuse to bring in a native son because he's too dangerous? Did the Shooto guys relay this information to you? How did you hear about this?Still think this was a good question...

just asked it on Bullshido using this quote Roy and linking to here.

Expect an influx of Bullshido nuts :eek: :D

Here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=881990#post881990)

statisticool
09-08-2006, 03:53 PM
By throwing around with a pinky, does one really mean that, are is it just saying someone took a static stance and he was able to push them over using his pinky.

Two very different things. :)


Justin

Upyu
09-08-2006, 06:34 PM
Actually sure, it's pretty against an amateur(especially weight lifting types). I can do it with my index finger ;)
I'll be its the same thing Gozo Shioda talked about, (except he would make more of a show for it by poking someone's trachea)

statisticool
09-08-2006, 09:24 PM
Does it translate to actual fighting, or is it just a 'trick' that has no martial application in a real situation?

Mike Sigman
09-08-2006, 09:35 PM
Does it translate to actual fighting, or is it just a 'trick' that has no martial application in a real situation?From the Cheng Man Chingers who have argued for more than 30 years about why bad knee alignment makes their knees hurt, why would you care? Why would you argue? Why not go see, if you're really interested in martial arts? These rhetorical ruminations lead nowhere.

Mike Sigman

statisticool
09-09-2006, 05:35 AM
I appreciate your 'internal strength' expertise input..

(But the question wasn't answered.)


Justin

Upyu
09-09-2006, 09:49 AM
Yes Justin, it applies to r3al fighting.
The same principals are applied in strikes, throws, grappling whatever ;)

statisticool
09-09-2006, 10:40 AM
Anything can apply in theory, on principle, sure. ;)

I was just curious, since all the video searches I did on this showed just manipulating someone who was in a fixed posture, or a student in a class in a non-sparring environment, which may or may not actually translate to reality.

Upyu
09-09-2006, 06:06 PM
If you're actually on the East Coast (and not in Oregon or somewhere) I'll be happy to show you how those princples apply in movements done in sparring when I drop by Virginia at some point ;)