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Stethomas
08-13-2005, 09:33 AM
Hi all

Just a simple question, ive recently learnt that around 80% Atemi is neccersary to good Aikido.. Im confused as to why if this is true, we dont practise effective strikes.

Cheers. :)

Charlie
08-13-2005, 11:19 AM
Who doesn't practice effective strikes? At your dojo? Not all styles teach the same so I would be careful about blanket statements.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6759
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8403

And the list goes on....

Adam Alexander
08-13-2005, 02:32 PM
Hi all

Just a simple question, ive recently learnt that around 80% Atemi is neccersary to good Aikido.. Im confused as to why if this is true, we dont practise effective strikes.

Cheers. :)

I'm with the above post.

However, I'd ask what "good" Aikido is? Good for what? What's good Aikido at one dojo isn't the same at another.

The question I think might be more suitable is one directed at your instructor: Why don't we utilize effective stikes?

Maybe, you do utilize effective strikes, but you don't see it yet.

aikigirl10
08-13-2005, 03:52 PM
Maybe, you do utilize effective strikes, but you don't see it yet.

Of course stephen. Like Jean has stated in so many threads, there are alot of things that you just may not notice in aikido. For instance...

Did you know that Aikido actually has a whole system of nunchaku incorporated into its techniques? As well as bows and arrows, tonfas, laser beams, and softball bats. But i'm sure you just havent seen it yet.

Did you know that there is actually more groundfighting taught in aikido then there is in BJJ? of course this also usually goes un noticed.

Stephen always look beyond aikido to find what really lies in aikido you will see things that you will probably never see unless you were on LSD.

Hope i could be of help :p

-Paige

MattRice
08-14-2005, 06:37 AM
Jeez Paige, I think you broke my sarcasm meter.

What do you mean we don't practice effective strikes?

You mean aikido striking attacks in kata are stylized? or that you don't receive specific training or drills in striking? The attacks are simplified I think, so that you can concentrate on learning the principles early on. If someone comes at you throwing jabs and hooks and you're new to aikido, you're going to have difficulty learning anything.
As to drilling strikes, I'm not sure what to say about that. Does anyone's aikido training include specific instruction in striking, drilling to that instruction, practicing on makiwara/heavy bag etc. etc.? I did karate for years, so I came in with that stuff.
You know, beyond just learning to hit: all that standing in horse stance doing stupid cork screw punches really taught me about transferring hip power out your hands.

Anyway, sometimes nothing is more humorous than a room full of aikidoka trying to throw a good reverse punch: or even better a front kick.

aikigirl10
08-14-2005, 03:30 PM
What do you mean we don't practice effective strikes?




I didnt know who u were talking to but, yes i do think we practice effective strikes at least in my dojo.

goldenleon
08-15-2005, 07:10 AM
Anyway, sometimes nothing is more humorous than a room full of aikidoka trying to throw a good reverse punch: or even better a front kick.

Hellow to every one. Sometimes i think that some people have stereotips about aikido: "no punches, no kiks" .I thought the same to time i have been started aikido practice. Now i see - it is not.
We practice all kinds of punches. I don't understand that is homour in punches. Have you practice randori i full contact with good aikidoka?
With respect to all :ai: :ki: :do:

Bridge
08-15-2005, 07:26 AM
Anyway, sometimes nothing is more humorous than a room full of aikidoka trying to throw a good reverse punch: or even better a front kick.

Hmm, I don't know, think you'll find a bunch of karateka flapping and squealing furiously cos they are unable to take the ukemi for a lock a very close second at least! :D

Ron Tisdale
08-15-2005, 08:37 AM
I trained with a shito ryu practitioner this saturday (3 hours, hottest day of the year, whew!) and he didn't seem to have any problems with our strikes. He did well for his first class, even with the breakfalls. His long legs and stiking experience was very good for making me pay close attention to ma ai. I think it was beneficial training for both of us. He came to try the beginners class, ended up staying for all 3, and seemed to have a very good time.

Except maybe when I demonstrated the full kotegaishi pin... :D

My experience anyway,
Ron

MattRice
08-15-2005, 08:50 AM
Sorry, didn't mean to offend or make stupid generalizations about dojos I've never seen, that really wasn't my intention.
Further, a karateka without any experience in being 'thrown' would have no idea what to do about say, sokumen iriminage from a commited front kick (other than hit the ground, this is from my own personal experience in, well...hitting the ground).

However, the question I asked: "Does anyone's aikido training include specific instruction in striking, drilling to that instruction, practicing on makiwara/heavy bag etc. etc.?"

was sincere, again not trying to be a jerk, just thinking about stuff.

Matt

Ron Tisdale
08-15-2005, 09:36 AM
However, the question I asked:

a) "Does anyone's aikido training include specific instruction in striking,

Yes, since most of our basic techniques contain atemi. We instruct on specific atemi to specifc places (shape of hand, where to strike, striking from hip as opposed to backfist from ear, etc.).

b) drilling to that instruction,

Yes, again, because the basic technique contains these various striking methods, as we drill the basic technique we drill the striking method. I have not found it unusual for a partner to mention that they are working speciifcally on their focus for the strikes, and to emphasize that part of the technique while training. I then make recieving that atemi in a realistic fashion a priority, rather than using a more casual block. I may intentionally cover my face with my open palm, and have them focus on striking through the palm, so that they feel some resistance. I might also move my face and my palm, so they get used to the target moving.

c) practicing on makiwara/heavy bag etc. etc.?"

I haven't seen this so much at the hombu dojo where I currently train, but at related and unrelated dojo, I have. Boulder Aikikai has an excellent makiwara that can take quite a hit.

Best,
Ron

MattRice
08-15-2005, 09:45 AM
THAT's what I'm talking about, and I supsected as much: I've just never seen it (in my meager experience)

Thanks Ron.

Ron Tisdale
08-15-2005, 09:58 AM
Welcome. There's nothing to say you can't buy a heavy bag and put it up at home somewhere. I did. Striking something heavy like that is good to condition hands and wrists for strong blows. Ellis Amdur may have some tapes on using atemi at various points in aikido technique, and the series on yoshinkan basic techniques are also good for that, as well as the book by Inoue dojocho, from yoshinkan hombu. When at home, do as they do, but nothing wrong with researching a bit on your own.

Best,
Ron

aikigirl10
08-19-2005, 06:01 PM
Hellow to every one. Sometimes i think that some people have stereotips about aikido: "no punches, no kiks" .I thought the same to time i have been started aikido practice. Now i see - it is not.
We practice all kinds of punches. I don't understand that is homour in punches. Have you practice randori i full contact with good aikidoka?
With respect to all :ai: :ki: :do:


I agree. I dont even understand why "Aikido doesnt have any punches" is even a stereotype. Yes i can see how people would say that about kicks but whoever started the rumor about punches is apparently very ignorant about what aikido really is.

-Paige

Lyle Bogin
08-20-2005, 10:07 AM
Striking is best learned from strikers, if possible. Would you want to learn a few aikido moves from a striking school?

Paul D. Smith
08-20-2005, 10:32 AM
If I recall correctly, this is a quote attributed to O'Sensei by Gozo Shioda Sensei, described in his book, "Aikido Shugyo."

I look at it a couple of ways. One, literal - atemi is literally part and parcel of aikido technique, and fits in as part of virtually any given waza. The other, more broadly. If there is no atemi "of the mind-body" in a given move, there is no aikido. It is empty. Whether shomenuchi iriminage, kaitenage, whatever the technique, if there is no decisiveness of action, as exists in a true atemi, there is nothing going on. Cutting with absolute kime and full-body commitment. It's all the same.

That's my take on it.

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2005, 10:58 AM
Striking is best learned from strikers, if possible. Would you want to learn a few aikido moves from a striking school?

Well, this can cut several ways. While it is probably best to learn Mui Thai kicks from someone who makes that their bread and butter, and the same would apply to boxing strikes, wouldn't it also make sense to learn 'atemi' from someone whose bread and butter is aikido and / or Daito ryu? In other words, if someone like Gozo Shioda, whose viewpoint was that basic training in aikido was sufficient to learn the proper method of atemi *in aikido*, wouldn't it make sense to pay attention to his words, and find *that* connection, while supplementing it with appropriate cross-training?

You can find his thoughts on this in his autobiography, available for order on the web.

Best,
Ron

Lyle Bogin
08-21-2005, 09:00 AM
I loved Shioda Sensei's autobio, and have several materials regarding this technique and philosophy. Who can forget the first time they see one of his demonstrations!

Yes, you can learn *aikido atemi* at and aikido school. Perhaps we are discussing two seperate subjects, and essentially do not disagree. I have found that *aikido atemi* training and execution is very different than the striking I have experienced in other fields.

I don't think it possible to discuss this anymore without directly criticizing aikido atemi as compared to other methods of striking..something that seems ridiculous when there are so many different schools. Like walking right into a punch.

Ron Tisdale
08-22-2005, 09:58 AM
Hi Lyle,

Well, the discussion of the differences is a good topic, though I'm not sure how qualified I am to do it. There is also the matter of whether we discuss the best of two different styles, the best of one vs the worst of the other, etc. ;)

I went to a dojo that has an open sparring session the other night, and even though I no longer train specifically in boxing or karate type striking, I had no problems generating power, speed and accuracy. I found that the principles in movement trained in aikido stood me well, and though a bit rusty in some of the types of movement (kicking in particular), I didn't have to worry about standing up to preasure, or being able to deliver.

I see the particular differences in atemi in aikido / daito ryu as being

a) very well connected to the ground when you strike

b) coordinating your whole body movement and power at the moment of contact

c) carefully coordinating the manner of the strike with the technique at hand

d) choosing weak spots to strike.

I don't think that the best striking in karate, boxing or some type of kung fu is necessarily all that different. But I do think that in all arts, it is rare to find really good instruction.

Best,
Ron

Lyle Bogin
08-22-2005, 10:46 AM
Hey Ron,

Point C is that key element of atemi, coordinating the strike with a seconday "control" technique that I really appreciate in aikido training (as well as chin na or ju jutsu - however they are properly spelled ;) ). It not only has helped me see what to do, but what NOT to do.

Also, the idea of using the arms at full extension to strike is something I've experienced in both kung fu (what kung fu fan doesn't love a good one inch punch!) and aikido, but the coordination of bokken and jo work have really helped me see how to pull them off...this idea of sudden presence in the space uke wants to occupy.

The other side of this point is that I think striking focused arts may be better at teaching striking as the primary "finishing" technique. Perhaps also the unfortunate case of being struck is dealt with a bit more as well. And I'm glad this is the case...my bell has been rung enough. Although a swift and focused throw can take a lot out of you, it's better than concussive injury if you want to keep your brains and body moving for as long as possible. Maybe what I am saying is that hanging with strikers makes one aware of their ability to attack, and the dangers involved. Sometimes I hear in aikido practice "if you stand here, you are safe", and I think "no you ain't partner".

Thanks for the chat,

Lyle

Ron Tisdale
08-22-2005, 11:02 AM
Sometimes I hear in aikido practice "if you stand here, you are safe", and I think "no you ain't partner".

Yeah, heard that one too. :) Maybe its better said as "If you take their balance, and stand here, you are safe until they get their balance back!" With someone good, that might only be a fraction of a second...

Enjoying the chat myself...

Best,
Ron

Lyle Bogin
08-22-2005, 11:21 AM
Word. Also, I think that it's not an on/off thing. In other words I can have positional advantage and unbalance my uke, but uke still has counter striking options...just far fewer and/or weaker.

So perhaps it would be better to say "stand here and unbalance uke and you are safer". Sometimes the act of unbalancing itself elicits a dangerous response...with uke leaping, dropping, or spinning into it.

Ron Tisdale
08-22-2005, 12:09 PM
kaeshi waza! shite unbalances, uke uses that to initiate a counter, shite does same...untill someone gets enough kuzushi to finish. I don't work enough on that...

Best,
Ron

Lyle Bogin
08-22-2005, 12:41 PM
ha, yes my training partners enjoy this kind of exercise (*massages yonkyo bruise*). but again we have to ask "where do I go to find the best elements for striking counters, can I learn them in an aikido school or I can only learn new ways to apply them in an aikido school". Not sure...

Tim Ruijs
08-23-2005, 05:59 AM
Aikido is Atemi is Aikido. Strikes in Aikido are not intended to inflict damage to ai-te, but to break his focus, and/or further unbalancing him. Once you start to think on how to damage ai-te, you are no longer practicing Aikido. If ai-te simply accepts this, he becomes uke and is also breaking with Aikido principles. Aikido is inherently harmless, it was designed to be ;)

Ron Tisdale
08-23-2005, 08:19 AM
:) Perhaps the previous post applies to the poster...but it certainly doesn't represent my training...

Best,
Ron

MattRice
08-23-2005, 09:40 AM
"where do I go to find the best elements for striking counters, can I learn them in an aikido school or I can only learn new ways to apply them in an aikido school". Not sure..."
This is more or less what I was speaking to. I don't think it has to be either/or though, just depends on where/who/how you train.

With respect to atemi not causing damage: the way I'm taught, sometimes atemi is leading the charge to your partner's center. If the atemi is not real (i.e. might cause damage if you let it hit you), is it really helping to take center?

Tim Ruijs
08-23-2005, 09:54 AM
With respect to atemi not causing damage: the way I'm taught, sometimes atemi is leading the charge to your partner's center. If the atemi is not real (i.e. might cause damage if you let it hit you), is it really helping to take center?

Imagine an open hand approaching your face at moderate speed: you might think this will not hurt me in anyway and won't move. Then a finger starts to target your eye, or the hand graps your throat. Now you reconsider and recoil. This also is atemi.
The threat must be real (in the eye of the receiver, ai-te), but need not to be realised when ai-te accepts the situation and allows you to continue. You work together.

MattRice
08-23-2005, 10:20 AM
Hi Tim:
sounds like we're talking about the same thing.

Matt

Min Kang
08-23-2005, 02:49 PM
Imagine an open hand approaching your face at moderate speed: you might think this will not hurt me in anyway and won't move. Then a finger starts to target your eye, or the hand graps your throat. Now you reconsider and recoil. This also is atemi.
The threat must be real (in the eye of the receiver, ai-te), but need not to be realised when ai-te accepts the situation and allows you to continue. You work together.

I may be misunderstanding you but I disagree: The only way the threat can be real in the eye of the receiver is if it IS real.

In your example, what happens if the ai-te does not react to your moderately approaching hand? Or reacts by punching you because he does not perceive your hand as a threat that is necessary to block or counter?

At my present level of understanding, Aikido IS atemi. Aikido is also what happens (technique) when the uke reacts to the atemi.

Uke and nage may work together, but it is from diametrically opposite points of view: Nage chooses to control rather than strike or harm; uke chooses to take ukemi rather than risk injury.

Tim Ruijs
08-24-2005, 02:41 AM
Hi Tim:
sounds like we're talking about the same thing.

Matt
That be good then ;) In this discussion I got the feeling people wish to (or perhaps even do) make their punches more effective. To me that sounds like competition of some sort: get faster, get stronger, do more damage...

On the other hand, I do feel that an Aikidoka should at least know the basics about punching. And must admit this often does not get much attention (NOTE: by no means wish to generalise all styles!).
Allthough Aikido practice is stylized to say the least, it serves a purpose. It allows you to safely train shi-sei (attitude), ma-ai (timing/distance) and kino nagare (fluent movement).

When you take this stylized training to the next level (e.g. ai-te throws multiple punches) you immediately adopt your behavior which will typically result in randori.

Tim Ruijs
08-24-2005, 03:55 AM
I may be misunderstanding you but I disagree: The only way the threat can be real in the eye of the receiver is if it IS real.

This would be shi-sei: attitude. It also (strongly) depends on whom you train with: is this person experienced or not? I hate to think what would happen to a beginner when confronted with a full-force attack. This would not be proper Aikido, IMHO.


In your example, what happens if the ai-te does not react to your moderately approaching hand? Or reacts by punching you because he does not perceive your hand as a threat that is necessary to block or counter?

Then ai-te becomes uke and should be taught why he should respond. Perhaps the danger is not clear. It happens quite often that my hand is in somebody's face and they still do not react (assume you will not hurt them as this is not done in Aikido). Until you intend to poke their eyes. This behaviour is a side-effect of the stylized way of training and you should always keep this in mind.


At my present level of understanding, Aikido IS atemi. Aikido is also what happens (technique) when the uke reacts to the atemi.

Uke and nage may work together, but it is from diametrically opposite points of view: Nage chooses to control rather than strike or harm; uke chooses to take ukemi rather than risk injury.
It is this last line that I tried to explain above. Once ai-te is aware of the danger he chooses safety. This is an important aspect of your Aikido training, at least I think so.

Lyle Bogin
08-24-2005, 08:43 AM
A real attack is different than a full-force attack I think.

pezalinski
08-26-2005, 12:44 PM
"real vs. full-force...." I take it you mean,

a "real" committed attack where uke has a clear intent to cause you bodily harm if possible, or at least demonstrate how/where/when it could happen, continuously throughout varying circumstances

as opposed/contrasted to

a "full force" attack, telegraphed (if at all possible), where uke has committed him/herself to a single attack implemented at full-power and speed, irregardless of the cost to self or varying circumstances.

beginners use the second one, because it's usually all they understand; experienced aikidoka should (in my experience) be performing the first one -- even if it may LOOK like the second one, to observers. :p