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JayRhone
08-12-2005, 03:24 AM
Hello all,
Okay, I started karate when I was very young and studied it for approx nine years. As most of you know in most karate styles when you strike at someone most people stop before they actually would hit the other person, and this was called control. Well when I started aikido one of the first things I was taught was that as Uke I am not suppose to stop my attack before my hand gets to nage, but rather that you should actually try and hit them. Not hard mind, but just enough that if they don't move your attack will knock them off balance or so. And this is being good uke, because it is more real and the techniques work off of uke's movements. So my question is, in things like randori and working with advanced students is it your intent to hit nage? Or do you just try and put your hand where is head/stomach ect. is? I realize that with all strikes there is intent but how much do you intend to put behind your attack? Thanks
Jay

Dirk Hanss
08-12-2005, 03:52 AM
I have never done real randori, only jiyu waza. In kata and jiyu waza the target (to stop) is about one hand behind nage, even with beginners. That helps nage use your energy.
But there were only few situations, when I stroke with full power. If nage is a beginner, if it is a new technique to learn and mostly in the beginning of the training, I do slow motion punches. And when accelerating, I try to stay controlled to to stop the punch the split second I recognise, that nage "fell asleep", i.e. does not react properly.
Sometimes i hit nage, but I never hurt them. I have a background in Karate of about seven years, too, although regular practice was more than 20 years ago.

The worst case for me as nage is, when uke stops his action an arm's length before hitting me. Not in jiyu waza, but in kata. How shall I try to do the suppposed ikkyo kote gaeshi, when I cannot reach uke's arm?


Cordially Dirk

Rich Dyer
08-12-2005, 04:49 AM
Depends on the skill of your training partner. Imho the more advanced you are the better it is for uke to strike with increased speed and commitment. Also varying angles of attack along with non standard strikes and kicks.

Dirk Hanss
08-12-2005, 06:19 AM
Rich,
I agree with you upon speed and commitment, but intent is a little bit more and the first question was like "where should the punch/kick stop?" And even at the first lesson of nage with a somehow experienced uke the attack should stop
- in the middle or beyond the original positionof nage, if he is safe
- at the skin of nage, if he is not.

Yes there are 100 other ifs and whens and "than means", depending on the technique and the purpose of the instructor.

But the idea should be as I told (IMHO).

Any difffrent opinions?

Cheers Dirk

rogueenergy
08-12-2005, 07:53 AM
I agree with Dirk and Rich.

I've been taught to always try to hit tori with the attack where they are standing when you start the attack. Never track on them or you will hit them unless they are advanced enough, or lucky enough to react to the changing attack. :D If they are new enough and it's an entering technique, well I'm sure you see where that would end...

I've also been trained that atemi, from tori's perspective, should track on uke's center and should assume the position of the body part in question to make them move. Using only enough force to make them move, not injure them.

In either case the intent is to make contact if your partner does not move, just not so much contact that you'll hurt them. You run out of partners quick if you do that :D

crbateman
08-12-2005, 09:17 AM
I teach it the way I was taught, which is to deliver a spirited attack directly at nage at his ready position, without holding back. The first order of business for nage is to get off the line of attack, and when training in this manner, he will learn very quickly. ;)

Dirk Hanss
08-12-2005, 09:44 AM
I teach it the way I was taught, which is to deliver a spirited attack directly at nage at his ready position, without holding back. The first order of business for nage is to get off the line of attack, and when training in this manner, he will learn very quickly. ;)
Wow, that sounds a little bit like "An aikidoka with all his own teeth does not practice seriously" :drool: . I have heard about such dojo, but was never in one.

As long as you just push them a bit to show they should have moved, it is fine to me. And if in line withe their experience and training preferences, they might take a pretty fine mune-zuki, if they are not out of line. :crazy:

Have much fun Dirk

rob_liberti
08-12-2005, 10:14 AM
I've been taught to always try to hit tori with the attack where they are standing when you start the attack. Never track on them or you will hit them unless they are advanced enough, or lucky enough to react to the changing attack. Different strokes for different folks - I teach the exact opposite of that. I want new students to track where the nage is moving just like you really would if you were really trying to hit a moving target (but initially much slower, maybe a little bigger, and with less power if you connect). The thing is I am teaching the nage how to make them miss and take advantage of that. I thnk this can be learned pretty quickly given the nature of our symbolic attacks.

As a matter of fact, I'm not sure I could do shomen uchi ikkyo omote without just pushing the uke's elbow if they are just attacking where I initially started (and not continuing to contribute to the overall movement).

Rob

tenshinaikidoka
08-12-2005, 11:38 AM
We train like we would be fighting (at advanced levels anyway). Punches and kicks are done so that they are as realistic as possible (total commitment by Uke) and Nage is expected to be able to move and counter. I personally find this to be a good way to train because the old saying "you fight how you train" always comes to mind.

Now don't get me wrong, we are not out there beating the living snot out of eachother but just commiting with realistic atemi and follow through. I personally don't think that if your practising and the attack falls short of Nage, that either person will benefit. Of course I am refering to advanced students and not beginers, who might get hurt even if they try to move offline.

Eric Webber
08-12-2005, 11:59 AM
I generally try to hit my partner with just enough force to snap them into the here and now, without knocking them into next week. With new folks I ask them if I should tell them ten times or hit them once, in order for them to remember the lesson. But I always make sure to give an honest attempt at contact - otherwise they are practicing to defend against someone trying NOT TO hit them, rather defending against someone trying TO hit them.

crbateman
08-12-2005, 12:43 PM
Wow, that sounds a little bit like "An aikidoka with all his own teeth does not practice seriously" :drool: . I have heard about such dojo, but was never in one.

Actually, Dirk, it's not as bad as it sounds. If training is begun with the shinai, the lesson is learned without much fear of injury. And shomenuchi to the top of the head can be more painful to the attacker than to nage. As I said, the point usually gets across real quick, and injuries are actually rare. If somebody is slow, then they go "off to the side" for extra work, so they don't get hurt. I have seen more injury due to a weak attack than to a committed one, because nage (and often uke) doesn't know where the "stop point" will be from one attack to the next. If nage gets lazy or develops poor technique by assuming that the attack will not reach him or cannot hurt him, then he could really get hurt. Also, the weight transfer (momentum) that comes from a committed attack is often missing from a wimpy one, and this force is exactly what nage should be learning to use to unbalance uke. There is really no other way to learn correct technique. Make sense?

justin
08-12-2005, 03:57 PM
i have only just started aikido coming from a karate background with 9 years training under my belt,i feel it unfair to let rip a full blooded attack on my partner who may have never faced one before juinor grades at least, when my instructor asks me to demonstrate an attack to show a certain move i was very humbled on how easy he handled it, guess what i am trying to say is you wouldnt expect a senior grade aikido instructor to get heavy with you as a newbie and i think with 9 years karate training you should offer your partner the same respect.

crbateman
08-12-2005, 04:22 PM
It all depends on the situation. Your instructor should know when and where to "let it all hang out". The core point is that, if you have not learned how to handle a maximum attack with minimum effort, you have not yet learned Aikido. If your dojo is more like a dance hall, then you are in trouble.

DustinAcuff
08-12-2005, 05:51 PM
Where I train we cut our teeth on slow, low energy attacks with cooperative uke's. When we are intermediate we start going a bit faster and with more energy. The senior kyu and above generally train with full force and commitment when it is save (such as randori, ect, when room is allowed, don't want no one in the walls). As I have been taught it is uke's job to give nage the most realistic attack and response possible. At the lower levels this means attacking slow and staying loose and allowing yourself to be off balanced. At the senior level it means attacking with everything you have and being ready to get up or scream "TAP" on the drop of a dime. So far it works with the worst injury I have heard of being a broken nose, and that was a couple years before I started.

Don't attack the first month student with everything you have, but don't hesitate to push the limits of whoever you are working with. Also, more importantly, follow whatever etiquitte is in place in your dojo.

Lan Powers
08-12-2005, 06:21 PM
Quote from Sensei " Attack with all they can handle"
That varies from nage to nage....Generally you can open up on each other as you gain in skill.
Yudansha go all out in our dojo, Higher Kyu ranks go pretty much full speed, and beginners receive slower attacks that will connect if they do not move off-line. Not many injuries, (very few , all minor)lots of spirited fun.:)
Lan

Charles Hill
08-12-2005, 08:18 PM
The core point is that, if you have not learned how to handle a maximum attack with minimum effort, you have not yet learned Aikido.

Clark,

If this is a valid definition of Aikido, I think that the vast majority of people practicing have not yet learned Aikido, myself included.

Charles

dyffcult
08-13-2005, 01:14 AM
Lan Powers stated:

Quote from Sensei " Attack with all they can handle"

From day one in my first aikido dojo, I was taught to attach with full power. Of course, I was a beginner. Thereafter, I was taught to attack with full power – according to the level of my uke.

So I always try to give a good and honest attack, and if I perceive nage as requiring a lessor “strength” attack, I do so. Sometimes the force of my attack is less, the sometime the speed.

Two things that I recall from my earlier training days:

On a less than committed attack, Saito sensei commented something akin to the fact that if the attack never reached nage, there was no reason for nage to ever utilize aikido...without attack there was no aikido.

alternatively

My highly ranked (I think fourth dan at the time) partner and I were practicing one of the jo-suburi. I was unranked at the time, but had been practicing weapons daily for over three months. We were going through the kata faster and faster after every explanation by sensei. Eventually, I was too slow on a block and he nailed my lower leg. He was good enough that he realized I was not going to block in enough time... and so pulled his strike. (I did not cry out, but still had a bruise for two weeks.) (To be honest, I’m still surprised that sensei noticed) He got chewed out by sensei for practicing beyond my ability...even though I had encouraged our rate of exchange....and it was only his ability that saved me from a broken leg.)

So while I’m all for training a bit beyond one’s ability, if one so elects, one should choose their partners with care.....Alternatively, I always try to attack with true intent...of course...according to the ability of my uke...

Brenda

crbateman
08-13-2005, 03:51 AM
Clark,

If this is a valid definition of Aikido, I think that the vast majority of people practicing have not yet learned Aikido, myself included.

CharlesCharles, what I'm getting at, but have not found the right words to say it, is that any first-year student can usually manage to stumble through, overpower, or simply withstand a half-hearted attack, without applying technique properly or completely. If they or their teacher are satisfied with this level of achievement, then they are selling short. The serious student should aspire to become much more proficient. One should always try to push the envelope to reach the true maximization of technique. If training is diluted from generation to generation, eventually what is left is nothing like what the Founder intended for Aikido. Many long-time practitioners lament that this has already happened, and as time goes on, the process becomes irreversible.

Dirk Hanss
08-13-2005, 12:10 PM
We train like we would be fighting (at advanced levels anyway). Punches and kicks are done so that they are as realistic as possible (total commitment by Uke) and Nage is expected to be able to move and counter. I personally find this to be a good way to train because the old saying "you fight how you train" always comes to mind.

Now don't get me wrong, we are not out there beating the living snot out of eachother but just commiting with realistic atemi and follow through. I personally don't think that if your practising and the attack falls short of Nage, that either person will benefit. Of course I am refering to advanced students and not beginers, who might get hurt even if they try to move offline.

Bad luck,
I do not have any intent to fight. Coming to your dojo with such a mind would mean there is no training. :freaky:

But yes, the more advanced we are the more realistic we try to get the attacks. And again we could start with a new thread about what is "realistic".
Could be full contact competition or "street" fight simulation. The only case when I was attacked in the street it was a drunken boy, who could not punch and kick properly. but we do not train "drunken master" attacks.

Cheers Dirk

tenshinaikidoka
08-13-2005, 12:44 PM
Dirk,

Not sure what you are getting at with your first comment. We do not have intent to "fight", only make things realistic should we need to defend ourselves. I do not see what is wrong with that, we just stress a realistic approach to training in Aikido, not even saying no one else does, but I have experienced a few dojo's who train without any practicality and that is not what I was looking for. I personally wanted a martial art that taught self defense, not a class that taught dance!!!

Again, these are my own personal experiences with a few dojo around my area so I am not trying to even say that other dojo are like what I described.

But I have to be realistic in my choicce of arts due to my job, in which case I use it to subdue bad people and have even used it to physically defend myself in an all out fight which was started when I was not working, but due to my profession. I think everyone has different needs and when they find a dojo that fits thier needs, they stick with it. Sounds like you have found what fits your and I have found what fits mine.

I hope this is not coming across rudely as I know sometimes words on a computer do not show how someone means something to get across. I am writing this in a non confrontational way, and I hope you take it as such!!!

Domo Arrigato Gozaimashita,

Brandon

Dirk Hanss
08-13-2005, 01:13 PM
Dirk,

Not sure what you are getting at with your first comment. We do not have intent to "fight", only make things realistic should we need to defend ourselves.(..)
Domo Arrigato Gozaimashita,

Brandon

Sorry, that was more a joke than critics. ;)
Realistic means obviously that you attack as you think someone else (a bad guy) would.

That is all fine. Nevertheless most dojo cut it down to a way nobody gets hurt. Some do "Japanese dancing". So I did and it was great fun. There are a lot things you can learn faster. Others will take longer and one is self defence.

Unfortunately it seems to be very difficult to do both with the same fellows - at mudansha level. Maybe it is more that I cannot switch to practice with the same guys differently.

Have much fun how ever you train. Just keep in mind that the "dancers" are doing aikido just as well as the "figthers". At top level they all meet.

Kind regards Dirk

tenshinaikidoka
08-13-2005, 01:33 PM
I agree with you and we also maintain a safe enviornment. And I understand that the "dancers" are doing aikido, they are just doing it in a way I would prefer not to do it. LOL But I respect all Aikidoka, regardless of how they train, everyone gets something different out of the Aikido training they partake in.

Stay safe and train hard,
Brandon

Charles Hill
08-13-2005, 02:03 PM
One should always try to push the envelope to reach the true maximization of technique.

This, in my opinion, is a good definition of Aikido practice. I am not sure, though, about the "dancers" nor the dilution of practice through the generations.

I think practioners who are lost in some kind of "Teenage mutant turtle fantasy" who think they are practicing seriously are far more common than dancers.

As far as the dilution, I wonder if there is not some kind of idealization of times past that goes on. When I was at Aikikai Honbu in the mid to late 90's, I thought the training was much better than what we can see on Aiki News videos of the general training at Honbu and Iwama when the Founder was alive.

Charles

crbateman
08-13-2005, 02:27 PM
You may be right, Charles. I can't say for certain because I wasn't there. But I can tell you that most of the "old guard" who trained at Hombu in the 60's and 70's, both on and off the record have scoffed at what today's practitioners call "hard" practice. (Of course, my father walked 10 miles barefoot in the snow to school, uphill both ways... ) ;)

tenshinaikidoka
08-14-2005, 02:38 PM
Well, each has his own opinion, some think they train hard, some train hard, some wish they could train hard!!! Who is really right if you are at least training!!! Opinions vary, and everyone has one!!!!

David Yap
08-14-2005, 09:48 PM
... if you have not learned how to handle a maximum attack with minimum effort, you have not yet learned Aikido...
Agreed absolutely.

Clark,

If this is a valid definition of Aikido, I think that the vast majority of people practicing have not yet learned Aikido, myself included.

Agreed absolutely, that's why we (the vast majority) are still practicing. Me included too :D

Best training

David Y