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Paberu
08-10-2005, 03:31 AM
Hi all, there is a good article about weapons in Aikido: "No sword - no Aikido" by Michel Field. What are You thinking about?

http://www.martial.com.au/aikido/articles/noswordnoaikido/index.html

Jorx
08-10-2005, 04:16 AM
Well Aikido today is just... Aikido today. If these topics concern you - live and breath the what you percieve as "right Aikido". The author probably does that. Many on the other hand disagree...

What I think? Weapons is an unseparable part of Aikidos identity. It is easier to understand empty-hand if you do weapons.

mj
08-10-2005, 04:27 AM
Well it's just another 'my aikido is better than yours' article, isn't it?

These appear every few months or so, this one is as full of holes as any other.

For instance - a lot is said about O Sensei only teaching weapons in Iwama, leading some to say that this means Iwama is the only real Aikido. No...this just means that the occupying forces banned weapons training especially in the larger areas such as Tokyo, where Hombu is.

Any weapons training had to be done out of sight. This of course has become twisted into 'he didn't do weapons in Tokyo because they were not worthy' or some such.
At his Hombu dojo in Tokyo Ueshiba allowed only Saito and himself to teach weapons. According to Saito this was because O'Sensei was not happy with the weapons level of instructors.
This quote is quite ironic given the general views of Aikido's weapons skills by the wider (non-aikido) weapons community - ie non-existent.

And of course people who claim that weapons were only taught at Iwama are totally ignoring Hikitsuchi sensei, 10th dan, who was the only person that O Sensei graded in weapons. And Hikitsuchi also kept the traditions of Shinto and misogi - all the spiritual and ethical teachings of O Sensei.

Then of course there is the more obvious (deliberate?) mistake where people say that Hitohiro is the natural heir to Saito...but that Kisshomaru is not the natural heir to O Sensei. What is being said here is that O Sensei's son was not his real Aikido heir. I myself am uncomfortable with that statement, you can't have it both ways. One man's son is his heir but another man's son is not?

However I don't think any of this can be blamed on Saito, many of the original deshi complained about the way newer Aikidoka became less martial in their training. From what I have seen and heard most of this stuff comes from the students.

So what do I think about the article?

I think it's a promotional piece. But as with some Iwama types it falls into the same muddy ground - the absolute insistence that only they are doing proper Aikido. Until they can overcome this fixation they come across....negatively.

And it's a damn shame because they do some really good Aikido. I really enjoy my Iwama practice even though my main class is Shodokan.

Anyway I hope this doesn't seem too negative a response.
His famous deshi all seem to be in agreement that they did not understand much of what he was talking to them about, that his language was arcane
None of us really know. :)

rob_liberti
08-10-2005, 07:06 AM
Well according to several people who were training in Tokyo towards the end of Osensei's life, Saotome sensei had the exclusive weapons class.

Do you think the author is is sure that anyone with many years of that correct Iwama weapons training would wipe the floor with Saotome sensei say sparing with a shinai? Give me a break...

Rob

PaulieWalnuts
08-10-2005, 08:26 AM
Have a geek at these articles from the man of knowledge himself stan the man. see what your thoughst are on these.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=31&highlight=last+word+on+weapons


http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=442&highlight=weapons

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=24


Mark said-For instance - a lot is said about O Sensei only teaching weapons in Iwama, leading some to say that this means Iwama is the only real Aikido. No...this just means that the occupying forces banned weapons training especially in the larger areas such as Tokyo, where Hombu is

Thats a very fair point mark, but you could also say weapons where only taught in Iwama because that is where the founder retired to fully devise his dream of aikido, he hardly taught at the honbu anyway, as it was left to his son to run. But thats is just another option that is out there. whether its because they had to be hidden or through choice means the same thing, they where devised in Iwama along with the taijutsu connection. No that does not mean Iwama is the only good aikido out there its just the birth place of AIKIDO and its basics.

And of course people who claim that weapons were only taught at Iwama are totally ignoring Hikitsuchi sensei, 10th dan, who was the only person that O Sensei graded in weapons. And Hikitsuchi also kept the traditions of Shinto and misogi - all the spiritual and ethical teachings of O Sensei

Im may be wrong here but, im sure hikitsuchi was a pre war student mostley and his training was mostly aikijistu and aiki budo, the weapons was not the aiki ken and jo consepts that the founder was working on. Im not completly sure about this but he was def graded by founder before it was aikido.

Then of course there is the more obvious (deliberate?) mistake where people say that Hitohiro is the natural heir to Saito...but that Kisshomaru is not the natural heir to O Sensei. What is being said here is that O Sensei's son was not his real Aikido heir. I myself am uncomfortable with that statement, you can't have it both ways. One man's son is his heir but another man's son is not?

completely agree mate, what a stupid idea, even though i dont like what came out of kisshomuras changes to his fathers art, it still makes him the natural heir, his father had well prepared him to run his city dojo.


think it's a promotional piece. But as with some Iwama types it falls into the same muddy ground - the absolute insistence that only they are doing proper Aikido. Until they can overcome this fixation they come across....negatively

Ye its true alot of Iwama folks are so blind they only see iwama as the only way, my own personal views are that it aint the only way to good aikido , BUT i do believe its the closest to the founders teachings with the least amount of personal influence from the chief(saito), THAT DOES NOT TRANSLATE IN ANY LANGAUGE THAT IM SAYING IWAMA IS THE ONLY AIKIDO OF THE FOUNDERS, but yes i belive its the closest.

mj
08-10-2005, 09:17 AM
Sorry Steff I don't go to AikidoJournal (or spend money there) anymore. The customer is not, apparently, always right ;)

Hikitsuchi got his 10th dan just a few months before O Sensei died, I think.

However don't see what I wrote as being in any way anti Iwama - as I said I think Iwama is great. The fact is though that I have never heard any Iwama student (or any other student) ever mention the fact that weapons training (and indeed martial arts training) was totally banned in Tokyo and most of Japan for a long time - the reason given for weapons being used in Iwama was always some way to negatively reflect the Honbu or other branches. (Consider what your old Italian friend PC used to say)

And Rob makes an interesting statement on Saotome. I have quite a few DVDs of Saotome and Nishio doing weapons, relating them to taijutsu - and they are a world away from aiki-ken/jo. If you see these they hint at the depth of Aikido and just how brilliant OSensei was.

Come round to my house for dinner sometime and we'll watch them :)

rob_liberti
08-10-2005, 09:31 AM
I'm certain that Stan as a long time Iwama student has absolutely no bias what-so-ever...

Who is a good representative of a powerful sensei from Iwama style in the States? Is Pat Hendricks sensei a good representative in terms ability to manifest power in technique, or is there anyone else more notible for that quality coming from a long time of dedicated practice in Iwama style?

Rob

Ron Tisdale
08-10-2005, 09:50 AM
Well, there was at least one other one...but his name isn't spoken so much anymore...

RT

dyffcult
08-10-2005, 11:44 PM
I believe that Patrick Cassidy and Miles Kessler both spent long periods studing with Saito Sense as both uchi deshi and soto deshi.

PaulieWalnuts
08-11-2005, 02:40 AM
In the US you have BILL WITT, who was the first in Iwama, he is responsible for building the bridge to iwama,
then there is BRUCE KLICKSTEIN(i know about his probs)
then DAVID ALEXANDER=10 years in iwama during the 70s
then PAT HENDRICKS, VINCNE SALVATORE, PAT CASSIDY, MILES KESSLER, STEFANIE YAP AND OF COURSE STAN PRANIN who spent along time in Iwama.
There alot more high people in the Us who spent long terms in Iwama but i think these guys are the longest.