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Steven Gubkin
08-07-2005, 12:57 PM
No this is not another "If an Jiu-Jitsu guy has you in the omoplata, wat r u going to do?" kind of thread. I want to know what you guys think about the moral aspects of jiu-jitsu and aikido. I have been doing Aikido for a little over a year now, and I have been taking BJJ for a little over a month. The thing that has struck me as the most surprising difference between the two arts is how gentle BJJ is compared to Aikido.

In aikido, both Uke and Nage are usually standing (or kneeling), through-out the entire exchange. Because of this, the various off-balancing techniques, and joint manipulations have to occur very quickly and dynamically if they are going to work against a resisting opponent. This results in Uke having to take a lot of, sometimes quite spectacular, Ukemi to avoid being injured. The problem is that the ordinary person off the street does not have such good Ukemi. I can imagine someone being seriously hurt by a kote-gaeshi, koshi-nage, of shihon-nage in real life. For this reason I think that I would rely more on some of the kokyo throws or irimi-nage (as I think the Ukemi for these throws is much more natural).

In BJJ, however, none of this is a problem. The throwing techniques are generally quite safe for Uke (the single and double leg takedowns esp.). When on the ground, a modestly good Jiu-Jitsu player will be able to control their opponent with-out causing them any real harm, and end the confrontation with a blood choke, or an immobilization. All of these techniques can be applied slowly so as not to damage the other person because they are being controlled positionally first. When I have played around with my friends doing NHB style fights, I have always been able to use my Jiu-Jitsu very safely, but the Aikido (except for a few techniques), has seemed to dangerous to use on friends.

My question is this: Why is Aikido considered a more gentle art, when it seems so much easier to really hurt people with Aikido than with Jiu-Jitsu?

:ai: :ki: :do:


Edited for spelling mistakes

Kevin Leavitt
08-07-2005, 02:05 PM
Hope I can answer you from my perspective.

First, people establish morality individually not the art.

I wouldn't say that aikido is less violent...in some respects it is very, very violent in nature if you look at the application or bunkai. I believe it is necessary in order to establish the "choice" or "option" not to use that violence. What makes it gentle is the philosophical nature of the DO. (coupled with the option). Plus there are many options to blend and resolve conflict.

Of course, as you have discovered, aikido does not necessarily do very well against a fully resistant opponent without hurting them. Also it is difficult to establish many techniques when uke is constantly moving, pulling strikes, and changing up...that is reality. It is something of the holy grail that we want to be able to do in aikido is be good against a truley resistant full speed opponent.

BUT....aikido is a DO....so we are not concerned so much with training to defeat real opponents as we are with learning proper principles and mechanics in order to understand the nature of the way of aiki. Any true empty hand effectiveness is secondary to the WAY/DO. Again, that is what establishes aikido as a "gentle" art.

You are correct about BJJ and the gentleness. BJJ is not really concerned primarily about the WAY/DO, but more about full speed/resistant opponents. They have stripped out many things that would be not be conducive to this type of training and concentrate on those things that can be practiced full speed and can also be very effective.

BJJ and Aikido really approach martial arts from two different perspectives with really the same basis of jiujitsu! I personally find them very, very complimentary.

You can certainly practice the DO in BJJ, but I have found that most are concerned with being martially effective or on efficiency of technique.

What is interesting to me is that Aikido, as practiced by most, has many dangerous and certainly violent techniques, but practicioners are few that could use them efficentily at full speed, while BJJ has less violent techniques, but many that can use what techniques they do have at full speed! Kinda Yen/Yang if you ask me!

senshincenter
08-07-2005, 02:14 PM
My question is this: Why is Aikido considered a more gentle art, when it seems so much easier to really hurt people with Aikido than with Jiu-Jitsu?


In my opinion, there is only one answer to this question:

Because Aikidoka tend not to train seriously in other arts.

Compared to many arts, Aikido is not only very insulated, it is even internally insulated (such that the various so-called styles tend to not only NOT expose themselves to other arts, they also tend not to expose themselves to other Aikidos).

In short, the source is ignorance.

dmv

DustinAcuff
08-07-2005, 02:14 PM
"The problem is that the ordinary person off the street does not have such good Ukemi. I can imagine someone being seriously hurt by a kote-gaeshi, koshi-nage, of shihon-nage in real life."

The person is being hurt by the fall which has force that is proportional to how hard they attacked -- aka the bigger they are the harder they fall. Had they not attacked you so hard the chances of being injures would go down drastically.

"When on the ground, a modestly good Jiu-Jitsu player will be able to control their opponent with-out causing them any real harm, and end the confrontation with a blood choke, or an immobilization. All of these techniques can be applied slowly so as not to damage the other person because they are being controlled positionally first."

You seem to be playing two sides of the court here: "Jiu-Jitsu player will be able to control their opponent with-out causing them any real harm" and "end the confrontation with a blood choke, or an immobilization". Immobilizations are joint breaks that are not finished, in the BJJ case they are maintained only long enough to get the tap or when lacking the tap, finish the technique. You cannot maintain these against an actively resisting opponent of equal or greater stregnth, you will either have to finish it or hope they get tired before they take it from you. Blood chokes are one of the most dangerous techniques around. They are easy to learn, fast acting, given to beginners who don't know first-aid and recovery measures. You are knocking someone out by cutting off the brain's supply of Oxygen. This causes cell death (brain damage). If the person who has just been choked out if they are not breathing again in about 40 seconds you have to revive them yourself because they will not wake up on their own. The people who don't start breathing are pretty rare but they are out there.

"All of these techniques can be applied slowly so as not to damage the other person because they are being controlled positionally first."

When you tap someone out or choke them out damage has already been done to the joint or brain that can never be repaired.

"Aikido (except for a few techniques), has seemed to dangerous to use on friends"

You are right. Bad ukemi could lead directly to death. But you are making the mistake of trying to spar for kick and giggles where the techniques where never meant to have a place. Also though there is a danger involved if one does not have ukemi, one can do things to protect uke anyway on most techniques just as one can do things to damage uke further.

"My question is this: Why is Aikido considered a more gentle art, when it seems so much easier to really hurt people with Aikido than with Jiu-Jitsu?"

The goal. Aikido is supposed to build better people. BJJ is supposed to submit people through pain, maiming, or brain damage. Aikido can also be done without regaurd to physical size or stregnth. Aikido should (I don't know for sure) have a number of immobilizations and standing pins that simply do not allow movement rather than using pain compliance.

Jorx
08-07-2005, 02:58 PM
Dustin that is not exactly true...
First of all: the mechanism of choke is not cutting the supply of oxygen to the brain. The arteriary system is duplicated and brain gets also oxygen via arterys in the back of the head which are not affected by the chokeholds.

Secondly it is possible to control a person on the ground in top (or back as well) position without hurting him. Also it is possible to control a person in some immobilisations of groundfighting especially if the other person is not familiar with the technical escapes. E.g. armbar, kimura, triangle, omoplata. Obviously heelhooks, wristlocks (NB!) and such are out of the question. Now the clear difference is it is possible to control an opponent via one joint AND with my whole body and bodyweight. And it IS NOT possible to control an opponent just through one small joint (I might break that joint, but control is not possible). That is the reality in BJJ. Somejow the Aikido viewpoint implies a different reality.

Now I've YET to see a STANDING pin which can be effectively applied in a real combatative situation. Forgetting that fact I have NEVER experienced an Aikido pin which immobilised without pain. It has always been the way that the immobilisation MIGHT break something if I move (we do not know that for sure) yet I also MIGHT be able to escape if I move.

L. Camejo
08-07-2005, 03:54 PM
Now the clear difference is it is possible to control an opponent via one joint AND with my whole body and bodyweight. And it IS NOT possible to control an opponent just through one small joint (I might break that joint, but control is not possible). That is the reality in BJJ. Somejow the Aikido viewpoint implies a different reality.
I agree with most of the above. It is very difficult, if even possible to control an opponent via pain compliance using only a small joint. Quality Aikido waza however does not work on one joint and pain compliance alone, but uses the extremities as levers to destroy the body's centre of balance (by distorting the spine's verticality) and control it by applying force through the connecting joints until one controls the balance of the person from head to foot by locking the series of joints that are connected to the limb being held. This also does not have to be painful, even with resistance. One's skill in controlling the body in this manner can mean the difference between a severe throw, pin or dislocation and a degree of control where the attacker's balance is so well dominated that recovery is not an option unless it is allowed.

Now I've YET to see a STANDING pin which can be effectively applied in a real combatative situation. Forgetting that fact I have NEVER experienced an Aikido pin which immobilised without pain. It has always been the way that the immobilisation MIGHT break something if I move (we do not know that for sure) yet I also MIGHT be able to escape if I move. Yeah I can understand this too. In fact any student of mine who wants to test out the practicality of a pin is welcome to try to escape. Often a learning experience for all, once they sign the waiver. evileyes

In the end it is compassion, high technical skill level and deep understanding that creates "humane" technique, not the particular philosophy imho.
LC:ai::ki:

Drew Scott
08-07-2005, 04:23 PM
Dustin that is not exactly true...
First of all: the mechanism of choke is not cutting the supply of oxygen to the brain. The arteriary system is duplicated and brain gets also oxygen via arterys in the back of the head which are not affected by the chokeholds.

[lurk mode=off]

I'm curious, what do you consider to be the mechanics of a choke?

My understanding is that the nature of a choke IS to cut off oxygen supply to the brain. While you can apply a "choke hold" to an individual without "choking" them, maybe more correctly a headlock(?), the mechanism of a "choke" at its root is, in fact, the cutting off of either the flow of blood or the flow of air. Cutting off the flow of blood through the carotid arteries does, in fact, cut off the majority of the blood supply (read: oxygen) to the brain, regardless of auxiliary blood vessels. That's what "blood choke" means.

[lurk mode=on]

--Drew

Aristeia
08-07-2005, 04:30 PM
Chokes generally act in three ways. Cutting off of the oxygen to the brain via the airway, cutting of oxygenated blood coming into the brain via the carotid, cutting off deoxiginated blood from leaving the brain via the jugular.
That said they are not as dangerous as some people would have you beleive. Applied properly there is no danger, I've heard some experts opine that even holding on to them for a long time after unconsciousness will not cause death. Certainly if the choke is relinquished once uke goes out it's perfectly safe. Sure you may get the odd person with a specific medical condition that makes chokes dangerours, but that's no more likely than having someone with a blood clot who dies after a light strike, and shouldn't really be taken into consideration.
This is why Judo and BJJ tournaments aren't littered with dead bodies. Chokes are safe.

Drew Scott
08-07-2005, 04:31 PM
I agree with most of the above. It is very difficult, if even possible to control an opponent via pain compliance using only a small joint. Quality Aikido waza however does not work on one joint and pain compliance alone, but uses the extremities as levers
[snip]
This also does not have to be painful, even with resistance. One's skill in controlling the body in this manner can mean the difference between a severe throw, pin or dislocation and a degree of control where the attacker's balance is so well dominated that recovery is not an option unless it is allowed.

This has been my experience in my limited tiem training in Aikido. The most effective pins I've experienced have created such a difference in mechanical advantage that I had no way to form a base from which to mount my resistance. Those are usually the pins that create only mild discomfort, but the parts of you in contact with the mat feel like they're glued down, and all of your trapped joints refuse to move. I've tried to worm my way out of a few of these, but it just felt like there was no way to get the leverage back.

FWIW.

--Drew

DustinAcuff
08-07-2005, 07:06 PM
"Dustin that is not exactly true...
First of all: the mechanism of choke is not cutting the supply of oxygen to the brain. The arteriary system is duplicated and brain gets also oxygen via arterys in the back of the head which are not affected by the chokeholds."

That is exactly true. It does not cut off the vertebral arteries that run up your spine and in to your brainstem through the foramen magnum unless extreme pressure is applied, but it does cause a suficient deficiency as to cause the shut-down or passing out.

As to the standing pin > I did not say it did not cause pain, I said it did not use pain compliance. Some hurt like the devil, some don't, but when I've been in some I could not mount any kind of resistance.

"And it IS NOT possible to control an opponent just through one small joint (I might break that joint, but control is not possible). That is the reality in BJJ. Somejow the Aikido viewpoint implies a different reality."

I have had ikkyo and nikyo both held on my with 1 finger, thank you very much. The reality in BJJ is that you are on the ground. The diffrent reality is that the concept of balance changes drastically on the ground. Reality is the same, but on the ground you cannot really take away someone's balace, but you can entangle the anatomical line so that the person simply cannot move.

"Certainly if the choke is relinquished once uke goes out it's perfectly safe. Sure you may get the odd person with a specific medical condition that makes chokes dangerours, but that's no more likely than having someone with a blood clot who dies after a light strike, and shouldn't really be taken into consideration.
This is why Judo and BJJ tournaments aren't littered with dead bodies. Chokes are safe."

My point was not that chokes are unsafe. I was using the analogy to make the point that aikido is concidered non-violent because without some deliberate effort no damage is done to the body by nage.

Steven Gubkin
08-07-2005, 11:38 PM
Dustin, I have to disgree with you on several points.
1. Chokes- http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm This link will show you that chokes are basically completely safe unless the person has a pre-existing medical condition. The just cause you to pass out for 20-30 seconds. (Also that the choke acts on the arteries, not the airway). This is wonderful for me, because it means that if someone attackes me I can choke them out, and then call for help without having to worry about pinning the person, or having to worry about hurting the person I choked.
2. Joint locks hardly require any effort at all to maintain without breaking the joint. All of the locks I have learned in jiu-jitsu work as great pins.
3. In the first two paragraphs of your first post you basically said that if someone attacks you hard you have the right to hurt them just as badly. This is not what I want out of a martial art.
4. At the end of your 1st post you said that the goals of the two arts are different. While I wasn't aware that martial arts could have goals, it is true that generally people who come to aikido come to it because it is supposed to be a gentle art, and people who do BJJ come to it for being a rough art. I am saying that in reality the physical waza of the arts do not really agree with the views that people have of them.
5.You say that Aikido doesn't depend on size or strength. BJJ doesn't really either. You see little technical guys tapping out big strong guys all the time. Jiu-jitsu is all about body mechanics, it isn't about strength. My instructor is a 150 pound guy, but he rolls with some muscle bound 200lb guys who have been taking the class for a year, and he still taps them every time.

When I posed this question, it was for people who know something about both aikido and BJJ. Try not to comment on an art that you either havn't tried, or only tried for a week or so.

DustinAcuff
08-08-2005, 01:05 AM
Steven -

1. Fine, if you wish to believe that you can choke anyone you wish out without any training on the revival methods that have been in place for hundreds of years because some people could die, then be my guest, I hope you never find out you are in error the hard way. But in every judo place, BJJ/mma place, and DR place I have been they made express warnings against using chokes unless someone was around who knew how to revive just incase.

2. Okay, have fun hurting your buddies whom you can immobilize forever.

3. No, my post said that you did not want to be attacked and that they gave up their right to your sympathy the instant they put your life in danger and that any resulting difficulties from the force of gravity where their responsibility. Have you ever tried to softly throw a 200+ lbs guy who just threw everything he had into that charge/push/punch? I am not advocating hurting people, but I refuse to feel sorry for someone who just tried to take my life, no matter how bumped up he got as a result of bad ukemi. You didn't see me saying that they should be taken into a life-ending or bone breaking atemi, or that they should recieve a tenchi nage that ended with their head shattering. Just that I don't feel sorry that they get a little sore from a kote gaeshi. If you want to harm someone with a throw, even if they have no ukemi, you are going to have to work pretty hard or have a bad bit of surroundings to do more than knock them out.

4. O Sensei he was teaching non violence and that he wanted to create world wide love and harmony, that seems to imply a goal. BJJ is all about the tap. In tournaments it is about winning either through a tap brought on by a submission, a knock out, or through points that are awarded for getting into advantageous positions (knee on stomach, full mount, etc). It is all about that tap.

5. If all things are equal stregnth and mass breaks the tie. I'm 200 lbs and have tapped guys over 350, and I have been tapped by 125 lbs guys. Size does matter though. Big guys are harder to get submissions on because they can resist more. If you are the smaller guy you have to hedge your bets so to speak and make tactically smart bets to overcome them.

"When I posed this question, it was for people who know something about both aikido and BJJ. Try not to comment on an art that you either havn't tried, or only tried for a week or so."

First off, I don't like having someone attack my character or something I have or have not done without proper provocation. You just did that. Second off, what makes you think I have never done either of these things? Hmm??? The fact that I warn that choking people causes minor brain damage and that if you happen to decrease the blood supply to the brainstem for too long that the person will not come back on their own? The fact that I feel no pity for the guy who just tried to take my life if he happens to bump his head? Well, you know something, you are right, I have never tried aikido, not even for a single day. I joined a dojo that said they were aikido in the phone book and who put up that picture of O Sensei up right beside the one of Takeda Sokaku because O Sensei was the more compassionate man. I am mainline Daito Ryu that has been softened up a bit by O Sensei's philosophies because I don't like the idea of maiming someone who threw a punch at me. As to my BJJ credentials. I took BJJ from a local group under Tinguinha for 8 months before I found Daito. I'm no expert on BJJ but I have done enough to know what I am talking about in regaurds to blood chokes and holding someone in a submission.

I do not appreciate being attacked and belittled by someone who has no more experience than myself. Nor do I appreciate being attacked for trying give warning for something that is potentially fatal since that is part of my job as an EMT and human being. You are free to believe what you want. If you wish to believe that I am just a mindless idiot with no concept of reality or the extent of what a technique can do, then have fun. If you want to believe that you are more infinitely wise as to what makes BJJ a softer art than aikido or that you are just plain better than me then go have yourself a field day.

Jorx
08-08-2005, 06:38 AM
Obviously Dustin you have been to only toughman BJJ schools. In my view the BJJ is MOSTLY about fun and play and rolling around and WHILE keeping that mental attitude also not forgetting it is a practical way of fighting. It is a healthy way to train. I'm still young and I compete also so I sometimes enter the "tap" mode but it's not a way to train for anything. It's not healthy, it does not make you a technical fighter. True BJJ is not about the submission. It is about positional dominance. If you have that you can submit whenever and with whatever you choose to if you choose to. It's my opinion of course.

Check out these kids for what I'm talking about (the fun part):
http://www.onedragon.com/videos/PAWDSL.wmv
http://www.canadas-best.com/images/PAW2_clipDSL.wmv

Or this clip:
http://www.onedragon.com/videos/MT2003dsl.wmv

Now about the chokes:
I have gathered info from several ppl with med. education about that icl. one neurosurgeon and one university anatomy professor. Also many ppl with various MA experience. The results have concluded with my personal experience: there are 3 kinds of chokes

1. Chokes that close the jugular veins resulting in CO level rise in brain. My experience says an example would be a triangle choke or some gi chokes. Face turns violet, eyes want to pop out then you pass out.

2. Chokes that affect the carotid sinuses and other nerves on the side of the neck. This is what is usually mistaken for the "blood choke which cuts the oxygen supply". Face turns white, you pass out with about 8-10 seconds. Now as I understand from medical evidence IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to cut the blood supply that suddenly and that effectively so person would pass out so quickly due to lack of O2 in brain. The arterys are said to be too wide, too deep plus the doubled system in the back of the head. The passing out comes from the extreme activation in parasympatic nervous system. Drop in blood pressure etc. Similarily to ppl who pass out when they see blood - they also turn white and faint. Proper Rear Naked Choke is the best example.

3. Chokes that are usually mistaken for "air chokes" - the ones that affect pressure on the larynx etc. Also said to be chokes which function through nervous system. It would be very hard to actually shut the trachea completely without smashing it totally. Also in that case the passing out would be much slower. They only affect slightly different nerve points than 2. Usually these chokes result in uncomfort, pain and tapping out before passing out in training situation. Some imply these are actually more dangerous if applied for a long time than 2. Windpipe crushers, untechnical guillotine etc.

I'm very open to add medical knowledge about chokes to my arsenal. Please feel free to add facts and where did you get them from.

About the pins. I just think that with my 2 years of intensive BJJ I THINK that I can escape any pins by most Aikidoka... If it has to do anything with my 6 years of intensive Aikido I can't really tell... That's not really bragging but rather a thought I have... because I think with you guys I don't get to train with ever because of the distance. Of course if someone ever drops in Estonia, feel welcome to contact me I can fix you up with any kind of training you want.

Now I can IMAGINE what kind of pins you talk about connecting the joints etc. but I've never experienced one like that. Hypothetically now it seems like a bit unrational idea to me... my center is connected to my upper body which is connected to my shoulder -> elbow -> hands -> HIS hands -> his elbow -> his shoulder -> his upper body -> his center. Now HOW MANY variables would I have to control here in actual combat? How many variations of movement there is? Is it REALLY possible?

I'd rather control MY center -> HIS center = mount him.

Now returning to the whole Aikido vs. BJJ - seriously: take BJJ. It's a whole different world from Aikido, it does not interfere with what you learn in Aikido and you can find many similarities in principles if you want to and choose to. Enough of ranting. Cya.

Added: Dang... i missed the original point in question. IMHO it's all about the mental attitude. Even the most toughest competitive Muay Thai whatever would benefit of training MOST of the time with light and playful attitude. Now REAL life is a different thing. You can't really tell how much you actually want or will hurt someone... Difference in how ppl view BJJ as a tough art and Aikido as a soft one comes IMHO from those widespread "toughman" schools in BJJ and widespread "treehuggin' peaceful" Aikido schools. It is only an image. Not the real thing.

jss
08-08-2005, 07:23 AM
About the pins. I just think that with my 2 years of intensive BJJ I THINK that I can escape any pins by most Aikidoka... If it has to do anything with my 6 years of intensive Aikido I can't really tell...

I was just wondering: how many aikidoka sometimes test a pin after tori has fully applied it? (So you're saying "Do your worst." and then try to get out of the pin.)
To take ikkyo as an example of why this would be a good thing: a lot of people seem to focus on inducing pain to get uke to tap out, while they are not really pinning uke's shoulder to the ground. And in such cases I have found it's not that difficult for me to escape. (I suppose having flexible shoulders and judo experience helps.)
On the other hand, it takes me some time. So for practical purposes, even a bad ikkyo pin seems to do the job, if tori is ready to adapt. (e.g.: my whole back site is open to strikes)
So Jorgen, a description of how you would escape ikkyo would be interesting.

Come to think of it, it's basically the same thing when tori applies a standing joint lock without controlling uke's center.

Lyle Bogin
08-08-2005, 08:23 AM
The last time I did BJJ it took me two weeks to heal. My favorite injury was and actual hand print shaped bruise across my chest ala the "buddha's death touch" :).

I also recall one of my sempai saying that every time some asks him to show them aikido by performing a technique on them, they get hurt...so he no longer is willing to do so.

MattRice
08-08-2005, 12:52 PM
FWIW, this year at summer camp Saotome sensei was very clear that in his opinion, aikido is not a 'gentle' art. He dismissed the idea with a wave and a "gentle art? ...forget it..." I believe his point was that one needs to train to find the martial, so (as stated above) a choice can be made to be merciful, or not.

My interpretation.

Jorx
08-08-2005, 01:35 PM
Joep: well as Chris Haueter so nicely put: "the answer is in your ass" meaning one has to move what is free: and that is usually the hips. A point somewhat lower than traditional aikido "hara". Meaning usually if all else fails you can flip to guard from almost any aikido pin. Escaping ikkyo standing: I'd lower my center, turn my palm up so I can bend my arm a bit at the elbow. Then go for any underhooking clinch position / some leg takedown or pull guard. Escaping ikkyo when pinned to the ground (talking about the classic ikkyo pin - arm pinned to the ground on a 135 deg angle from my body his one knee in my lower ribs other near the elbow, both hands pinning my elbow to the ground). (Naturally it's a bad position since I'm flat on ground with my one arm my back and head exposed) again I start with turning my arm in the straightened position (I have never seen that someone could statically pin somebody in that position for very long). Make a jerking movement towards my body, try to turn on my back and flip to guard OR turtle on my elbows and knees taking underhook with the not-anymore-pinned arm.

bratzo_barrena
08-08-2005, 02:52 PM
jorge matsin wrote:
"talking about the classic ikkyo pin - arm pinned to the ground on a 135 deg angle from my body his one knee in my lower ribs other near the elbow, both hands pinning my elbow to the ground). (Naturally it's a bad position since I'm flat on ground with my one arm my back and head exposed) again I start with turning my arm in the straightened position (I have never seen that someone could statically pin somebody in that position for very long).

I want to share one deatil for a secure ikkyo pin. If both of nage's hands are presing uke's elbow towards the ground, is not an effective pin per se, actually is more an extension exercise. The idea is that uke tests nage's extension by pushing towards nage and nage's keeps him down through extension, but if uke really makes strong movements, bending and turning the arm he/she will escape.
So a proper pin need that one hand presses the elbow, while the other hand grabs the wrist, in that position nage has total control of the arm and can apply leverage in the elbow by pulling up the wrist (if case pain if needed for control). I hope I wasn't too confusing.

bratzo

Steven Gubkin
08-08-2005, 02:57 PM
Dustin, I am sorry. I should not have assumed that you have never done BJJ. The BJJ that you discribed in your posts is just so different from the BJJ that I have experianced, that I assumed you had not done any. The comments that lead to this thought particularly were the comments about BJJ requiring a great deal of strength to be effective, and that joint locks could not be used as immobilizations. Perhaps you were never exposed to these ideas in your BJJ class, but they are certainly present in mine.

I also apologize for being somewhat severe in my response. I felt that I was being attacked in your initial post (if you could do me a favor and re-read it you might see why). I obviously still have a lot to learn about Aikido, because I responded to your (apparent) attack with something of a attack of my own.

There are still a few issues that I would like to discuss with you, however. You have mentioned in each post how dangerous BJJ is, but not so much about how dangerous aikido is. I think the most dangerous techniques in our arsenal are kote-gaeshi and koshi-nage. I think that if kote-gaeshi were applied to a resisting opponent who did not have the knowledge of ukemi that we do in the dojo it would either result in nothing happening (if it was done incorrectly), or with the person's wrist breaking. I think that if koshi-nage were applied to someone who didn't know what was going on, they might make the classic beginners mistake of looking at the ground during the ukemi, which would probably result in them landing on their head. Concrete is not so forgiving as foam mats.
The fact of the matter is that many people practice these techniques in the dojo, and they still have the belief that they are practising a gentle art.
I simply observed that in many ways, the techniques of BJJ can be less hurtfull than aikido's. I think that the physical techniques of BJJ might be more in tune with the philophy of Aikido than the techniques of Aikido are.
Also with regard to chokes, when I am playing with my freinds, we do not choke each other out. We get the choke in place, and the other person taps immediately. On the street, you said you wouldn't worry about K.O.ing someone. In the artical I posted, it stated that choke outs were safer than K.O.s. If someone were really attacking me IRL, and I had to make a choice, I think a blood choke is the first thing I would go for. I would then immediately call the police, and tell them that the person had been choked out. I would also like you to know that blood chokes are used by the police. I will be taking a course in CPR soon also, just because it is a good thing to know.
One final point is about strength again. You said technique being equal, the stronger BJJ guy wins. I think that this is true of Aikido as well. If two Aikidoka of equal skill were to fight (although hopefully no Aikido people would ever get into a real fight with each other), I think that the one who was stronger/more massive would win, simply because they have more weight to throw into their technique. I also think that in both Aikido and BJJ, strength and size matter less and less as skill increases.

Steven Gubkin
08-08-2005, 03:01 PM
Kevin your post was great to read. I will have to think about it a bit more before I can respond, but it has givin me a lot to think about. Also thank you to everyone else who has contributed to the thread so far.

DustinAcuff
08-08-2005, 03:23 PM
On all fronts, I agree.

Jorgen: good info on the chokes. That would explain some anatomical issues that conflicted with the common knowledge and the parasympathetic response would account for the (rare) cessation of breath.

Joep: Great point! You cannot every rely on a technique that someone is not trying to get out of!

On escaping from any techniques. Some you can, some you can't. If you bring the bones into the correct alignment, have uke prone, and keep your center you can keep uke on the ground with a 1 finger ikkyo. As to how often this happens and reality and how do you get there: you cannot say I am going to do X technique to someone and expect it to happen. There are simply too many variables. The body's anatomical lines (ie bones/tendons/ligaments) have certain ranges of motion that cannot be safely crossed. This is normal range of motion. Every koppojitsu (bone breaking) art relies on creating intersecting lines that extend beyond normal range of motion into dangerous territory. People have been doing this throughout the world for hundreds of years. The only diffrence with AJJ or Aikido is how you get there. You say, "well, you want to go this way so lets go this way".

If I try to ikkyo someone from a punch and they attempt an elbow to the face I'll go to shihonage, if they step back to prevent this then I'll tenkan and ura tenchi nage, if they spin in the air and land prone with the arm outstretched I'll step over and arm bar at the shoulder and wrist. You have to blend with ANY energy given, IMHO, to be effective, you cannot just say, hmm, lets do ikkyo. Same thing as in BJJ. You dont just get an armbar right off of the bat on someone with skill. You may sweep to mount, attempt a gi choke and depending on the outcome armbar or triangle then armbar. It is a series effect that relies on combonations. Each person I've met in BJJ developes their own game plan to get the tap off of someone who is equal or higher skill. I have never seen someone only attempt an armbar from the guard. It is always combinations that you throw at the peson until you can sink that armbar in, or if you see a sweep to a better position you abandon the armbar and play the new position.

DustinAcuff
08-08-2005, 04:01 PM
Steven, your post popped up while I was writing my last one. I'm sorry if my initial post felt like an attack, it was never intended as such, it is just my nature to evaluate and respond pro or con.

My BJJ experience was with cage fighters and guys who already had 15+ years of judo and they were all about progressing to win and having fun. My issue is with BJJ used in combat not for fun. The dynamics change so drastically that I cannot see ever using BJJ in a real situation. Can it be done, yep, would I do it, never.

As to the dangers of aikido, IMHO (based on heresay and a couple dojo's I have watched at) unless you really know what you are doing your chances of seriously injuring someone are slimmer than the BJJ person because they are trained to know what they are doing and you are conditioned to be softer in application. With respect to the potential danger I would dare say that I have a better understanding than most. I am in a battlefield art where the goal was self preservation against a highly trained opponent who was going to kill you. I know what my techniques can do. In my version of Rokkyo (also known as hige-kime) the uke's elbow, shoulder, and neck are broken, not to mention the chains that can come off of the position. While aikido techniques may or may not be watered down depending on your particular school, I know what they looked like and where they came from. I'd rather have a pack of BJJ guys to deal with than 1 trained aikidoka.

Kote gaeshi is a pretty impressive technique to watch and difficult to learn to take, but my first time taking kote gaeshi I had no idea what was coming and landed with no ukemi. If you are doing the technique right the wrist break won't happen because of positioning (if not just throw uke at the place where forearm and wrist meet, zero liability and accidents) and he will go over regaurdless. I cannot speak for koshi nage since I have never done the technique and don't know what yours looks like but the more destructive throws are tenchi nage, kaiten nage, and any of the drops, such as the corner drop, wrist drop, ect because ukemi simply dont happen.

The gentleness is how the techniques come about and the philosophy. After the initial beginner stage I stopped using stregnth to preform the techniques. I still muscle them occasionally but I dont rely on overcoming the uke's muscle mass to do the techniques.

Chokes are a good enough way to go. Low permanet damage, hard to prove in court, low chance of fatality. I don't like them because I know how to get out of them. Sensei is big about teaching choke defence. I can get out of most blood or gi chokes that have been fully applied pretty rapidly. Treat every opponent as if they are your equal.

BJJ is a good art, and an easy way to learn some ground skills. It just isn't my cup of tea since in my mind it has been disproven completely as combat effective. Please, no fights over that one.

DustinAcuff
08-08-2005, 04:42 PM
Just a quick comment: good jujitsu is very similar to good aiki jujitsu

Jorx
08-08-2005, 04:48 PM
Dustin there's a nice story out there how Steven Seagal claimed he could get out of Gene LeBell's chokehold. If there would be good and reliable choke defences out there then the most common submission in last ADCC would not have been RNC... and that in any weightclass. Or gi chokes in Mundials 2004 (don't know about 2005 yet). Coming out of a FULLY APPLIED CHOKE sounds a bit disillusionate. Of course I do not view most of the standing chokes as legit techniques so if you think of them, it's all good...

Anyhow as I understand it groundfighting is about control. If you escape a proper choke you then have to escape back position or mounted position etc. That's bad and hard work.

"The gentleness is how the techniques come about and the philosophy." - so true... I used to be the cranking guy once... now I just want to flow.

Strength is always a factor you can't just throw it out of the picture (pun intended:)

I mean it is not about BJJ... I think combat arts in effective-fighting sense are losing identity... (and that's not a bad thing imho 'cause identity has nothing to do with effectiveness). I can call my groundfighting whatever but to be effective, I'd have to have top and bottom, guard and passing and to train it alive with real and uncooperative opponent. It's just it'd look quite like BJJ no matter how hard I tried so why bother inventing the wheel again, I'll just do BJJ.

Aikido is all about keeping it's identity... that's why it's also drifting away from combat effectiveness... is it bad? No... just different...

Aristeia
08-08-2005, 06:01 PM
Outstanding post Jorgen!

Keith R Lee
08-08-2005, 06:56 PM
I can call my groundfighting whatever but to be effective, I'd have to have top and bottom, guard and passing and to train it alive with real and uncooperative opponent. It's just it'd look quite like BJJ no matter how hard I tried so why bother inventing the wheel again, I'll just do BJJ.

Aikido is all about keeping it's identity... that's why it's also drifting away from combat effectiveness... is it bad? No... just different...

Indeed. Good post. I particularly agree with this part.

Although, while those BJJ guys are really good with their armbars, they seem to have a problem with us Sambo guys and our leglocks... ;)

DustinAcuff
08-08-2005, 08:02 PM
You can get out of a choke if you understand the mechanics of that choke. Almost every choke excepting the guillotine and triangle have some points where they can be peeled off even if they are set in, fingers and toes are a good example. Every choke exposes some pressurepoints that can cause some rather intresting reactions. Not to mention at any given time I have car keys, pocket change, a knife, a cell phone, maybe a pin, possibly sunglasses, or heck even sandals. I'm not talking about fighting a good BJJ person out of a choke, I am talking about getting that choke off of me any way I can. The goal is getting a choke off because that is a direct threat to your life since you can't make sure that they let go after you are out. Any means that work within 7 seconds are game.

xuzen
08-09-2005, 12:49 AM
BJJ vs Aikido... this is IMO what will happen, assuming this is not a cage fight.

BJJ'er will try to close the distance against the aikidoka by a series of moves, feint jabs. Aikidoka, who are trained to maintain distance will tenkan, spin, kaiten out of BJJ'er reach. After what seem like hours both MA will be tired and frustrated.

BJJ'er will sit down in frustration and open up a can of budweiser to cool down while the aikidoka will open his bento set and eat his sesame seed garnished sticky rice balls.

The next round continue and again nothing happened as two martial artist just keep circling around the fight area. After what seem like another hour, the really tired MArtist call it quit and head down to the nearest pub and call two buds. They then decide to learn from each other and attend each other's dojo/gym with open mindedness.

Boon.

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 01:50 AM
Amen Boon!

Kinda funny to realize that yet another thread has become a my art vs your art.

Keith R Lee
08-09-2005, 01:52 AM
or the BJJer would close distance, take the aikidoka to the ground, and submit them. which is much more likley.

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 01:55 AM
If the BJJer had Judo experience and went for a Judo takedown would the Aikidoka immedately recognize the movements of his nemesis art and throw the BJJer for a repeat preformance of O Sensei vs Kano Sensei?

PeterR
08-09-2005, 02:18 AM
O Sensei vs Kano Sensei?
Ueshiba M. fought Kano J.?

Besides the strange combination of referring to Ueshiba M. as O Sensei and Kano J. as something less - I don't think that the two ever came to grips.

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 02:37 AM
I do believe that that was the time that Ueshiba and Kano had a bit of a challenge between Aikido and Judo that ended with Kano declaring Aikido the "ultimate budo." I am pretty sure I am not confused here but I could be. It was not supposed to be a violent encounter or anything. In conjunction with this same event Kano was supposed to have said something along the lines of Aikido being like practicing Judo with an empty gi. It is past midnight here so I could be confused and crossing any number of things.

The O Sensei vs Kano Sensei was not by any means intended to raise one above the other, I just cannot spell Ueshiba unless it is right in front of me, plus I have seen it spelled a few diffrent ways, O Sensei is just an easy way to refer to Ueshiba in particular.

PeterR
08-09-2005, 02:55 AM
It was as simple as Kano J. watching an Enbu (demonstration) of Ueshiba M. He commented that it was "true Budo" which does not imply that Judo wasn't. I think our own Chris Li pointed out that there is no "the" in Japanese. I think the difference between "true Budo" and "THE true Budo" is huge.

Kano J. was very much interested in having masters from different Budo teach at the Kodokan. He could not get Ueshiba M. to teach and ended up sending a couple students to train under him. Others, such as Kenji Tomiki, had already found their way there.

I was playing a bit with the O sensei thing - normally in Japan I hear Ueshiba sensei or Kaiso from Aikikai people. Rarely the Irish version. I find the O sensei thing a bit over the top.

xuzen
08-09-2005, 03:20 AM
It was as simple as Kano J. watching an Enbu (demonstration) of Ueshiba M. He commented that it was "true Budo" which does not imply that Judo wasn't. I think our own Chris Li pointed out that there is no "the" in Japanese. I think the difference between "true Budo" and "THE true Budo" is huge.

Kano J. was very much interested in having masters from different Budo teach at the Kodokan. He could not get Ueshiba M. to teach and ended up sending a couple students to train under him. Others, such as Kenji Tomiki, had already found their way there.

I was playing a bit with the O sensei thing - normally in Japan I hear Ueshiba sensei or Kaiso from Aikikai people. Rarely the Irish version. I find the O sensei thing a bit over the top.

Damm,

PeterR beat me to answering it. But then Dustin... Peter is basically a walking Encyclopaedia of everything related to Japanese Martial Art. Consider him the "Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy" ala aikido version. :D :D :D

Boon.

happysod
08-09-2005, 03:39 AM
aikido - mostly harmless

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Jorx
08-09-2005, 07:30 AM
Dustin: "Every choke exposes some pressurepoints that can cause some rather intresting reactions. Not to mention at any given time I have car keys, pocket change, a knife, a cell phone, maybe a pin, possibly sunglasses, or heck even sandals"

How do you know? How do you train that? Funny view you have... in my book the triangle and guillotine (especially) are the easiest chokes to get out because they are bottom chokes. I do not see any rational escapes from applied rear naked choke though.

All that judo talk reminds me of some judo history I read from a Judo instructional book (don't recall the name, sorry) where it was said in the old days the Kosen Judo guys pulled guard in competitions and submitted all the Kodokan guys until Kano and the other Kodokan heads decided to change the rules.

Xuzen: "BJJ'er will sit down in frustration and..." nooooo... it's not the frustration, he is just unleashing the ultimate technique of BJJ - the buttscoot :D

Ketih: "they seem to have a problem with us Sambo guys and our leglocks..." Yeah so it is but I think you understand they are already almost the same especially from MMA / SD point of view. Give or take some odd suprising leglock or some wicked open guard sweeps - both differences sprining from the specific sport-ruleset, the arts are the same, the mechanics of the techniques are the same and there exists a best way to train them.

rob_liberti
08-09-2005, 08:37 AM
All that judo talk reminds me of some judo history I read from a Judo instructional book (don't recall the name, sorry) where it was said in the old days the Kosen Judo guys pulled guard in competitions and submitted all the Kodokan guys until Kano and the other Kodokan heads decided to change the rules.
This is way outside of what I actually *know* - but I was told that the kodokan guys had good answers for the guard but hadn't been practicing any of those moves for a long time until UFC came on the scene and forced them to re-open some of their old technical books. Was that just rumor? (I really don't know.)

Rob

Michael Neal
08-09-2005, 08:55 AM
This is way outside of what I actually *know* - but I was told that the kodokan guys had good answers for the guard but hadn't been practicing any of those moves for a long time until UFC came on the scene and forced them to re-open some of their old technical books. Was that just rumor? (I really don't know.)

Thats about right, many of the ground techniques have become neglected in Judo because the rules for competition discourage ground fighting.

Jorx
08-09-2005, 08:56 AM
Of course the Kodokan guys had answers! They wanted to be competitive with the Kosen guys so they had to deal with the guard. But as this books tated the Kosen guys were more successful with their groundfighting tactics than Kodokan guys with their throwing emphasis. Until they changed the sportrules. This changing over the time (I think the last MAJOR rulechange was before the first olympics when they banned leglocks and such - might be wrong on that fact though) has resulted in judo going towards the standup throwing... also the gripping rules affect this very much.

But again... take any gi-throwing art (judo, sambo, bjj) - in the SD context it is all the same. In MMA-context it blends with wrestling...

Now what is INTERESTING is that if you look into TMA's - they're view is DIFFERENT. Chin-na groundfighting system and methods is vastly different from Bjj / judo / sambo groundfighting. Some Blah-Ryu-Jujutsu standup is rather different from bjj / judo / sambo throws (sure there are some similarities but the methods and form is usually different).

Why? Again I say, the arts have chosen to NOT sacrifice their methodology/philosophy/identity on the altar of EFFICIENCY.

Keith R Lee
08-09-2005, 10:58 AM
Jorgen, oh yeah I completely agree. Pretty regularly students from one of the BJJ schools in town come over and roll with us, so there's a fair bit of cross-pollination. It's just that they usually end up armbaring us and we leglock them. I was just making a bit of a joke, hence the ;) .

I think the big problem is that when one never engages in competition, and train only in cooperative practice, one begins to make assumptions of what whill happen in a real physical encounter. And as it's said: "Assumption is the mother of all &%#@-ups."

As an extreme example take France after WWI. They were still so frightened by Germany even though they won they built the Maginot Line. The Maginot LIne was a series of outposts, canons, tank obstecles, etc. along the French-German border. The idea was that the Line would provide France a strong defense against any invading German army and allow them time in which to deal with the invading army. The only problem is that France built the Line across the entire border except along the Ardennes Forest which the French assumed to be impenatrable.

Guess what happened?

The Germans blasted right though the Ardennes and went right around the entire Line, rendering it useless. The French were still under the assumption that the static (dead, not live) and entirely defensive combat that had worked so well in WWI, would continue to work well. However, the Germans had learned from their mistakes, adapted, and had moved on. Hence, the new German military doctrine of "blitzkreig" or "lightning war" (Man, the Prussians were really good at war. Sorry, I'm a bit of a military history dork) in which they used speed and shock to prevent opponents from providing a stable defense.

And guess what? Any martial art without resistant, "live" training, like many Aikido dojos, are the Maginot Line of martial arts. If something comes at a student, who has never engaged in "live" training, in the way they assume things are going to happen, then they will probably have a reasonable answer/defense. However, as soon as something else happens, some different variable is entered into the equation that they have never dealt with; their assumptions are going to be shattered and the student is going to be blitzkreig'ed.

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 01:26 PM
Jorgen: "How do you know? How do you train that? Funny view you have... in my book the triangle and guillotine (especially) are the easiest chokes to get out because they are bottom chokes. I do not see any rational escapes from applied rear naked choke though."

The thing about BJJ is that it is still linear. You can move circularly on the ground in three-dimensions so why stay on the line? Anything attached to you must follow your center so if you rotate around someone who his holding you from behind then they become the axis and the movement of your center can and will create any and all of the openings needed to escape any technique and cause the tap/break.

It is also structured and limited by rules. No small circle because it is too dangerous. No "crush" techniques while in gi. No biting. No weapons. No pressure points. And the preconcived notions that the only ways out of techniques are the ones you have been shown or that you saw in the Gracie Ju Jutsu book/video.

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 01:29 PM
I expected Ueshiba Sensei vs. Kano Sensei was more urban legend than fact. It is nice to know something new.

Jorx
08-09-2005, 02:35 PM
BJJ? Linear? Why do you think most of the BJJ schools have a traingle in a circle in their logotype:)? There are ALL KINDS of movements. Just like in Aikido. Though both Aikido and BJJ (and many other MA for that matter) people like to emphasize triangle and circle.

It seems, that you think inside the "Gracie Jiujitsu" box. BJJ / groundfighting is long past the "gracie phenomenon" (the fact that Roger Gracie is the ADCC and Mundials champ has nothing to do with it) and "the gracies" is just another marketing brand / school. Also "sport-bjj-box" in general. One can train in a gi. One can add strikes, light fingergrabbing, pressurepoints and even biting (heard that Paul Vunaks practices it with stakes tied to the neck - a bit goofy yes, I myself think that to address the biting probability there's enough of some thinking and only a little bit of training with bite-possibility-simulation). DogBrothers MA do stickgrappling. YET the delivery system remains the same. Sure, we take the gi off - some open guard sweeps fly off the window... gi chokes obviously. We add strikes - playing half guard becomes a less wise decision, lots of random scrambling gets added we add a stick lots of goofy harassment moves become available but the possibility of movements in general and the movements remain the same.

And man... I try to invent new techniques all the time:) I do not have the luxury of a BJJ blackbelt spoonfeeding me techniques and answering questions all the time. I think something out, I field test it. Works for me on samesized opponent in drill? Great, now try it in sparring. Now try against a larger opponent. Doesn't work = mental note: try it only in your own weightclass. Works against a larger opponent? Great... now try it in sparring against a wrestler who might give some unorthodox responses. Still works? Awesome:) Usually I'm not that successful though.

Well... ok... I re-read your post and I really do not understand what are you implying on this "moving around" talk. Could you be more specific?

Jorx
08-09-2005, 02:56 PM
Sorry Dustin, no offence meant: I meant you think inside a box ABOUT BJJ not in general. Maybe it comes from your limited exposure to BJJ... it was a Gracie affiliated, sport oriented, brazilian gym... all of which have a very specific influence.

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 04:59 PM
I won't deny that my knowledge on the subject may be somewhat limited. And it appears that BJJ has gone the same way as every other art around today: people are doing whatever the heck they want with it. Some gyms could be more effective, some less.

The moving around is a diffrent philosophy or way of doing things, I'm not sure which. I'll explain as best I can. There is going to be some circular logic and odd phrasology but it should make sense after reading it a couple times.

An arm bar is a technique based on principle. The principle is based on hyperextending the forearm beyond the normal range of motion with the goal of breaking the arm. What is happening here is that the bicep is fully elongated past it's stregnth zone which allows the forearm to be manuvered so that the radius and ulna are at just such an angle so that if more force is applied the effort goes away from the bicep and onto the head of the ulna where it locks against the humerus resulting in the leverage applied ripping apart the joint. So the real concept here is get the head of the ulna to apply force to the humerus. Traditionally it is straightened through force applied to the elbow, either using the legs or the arms. The armbar from the guard is a good example of how one manuveres himself into line to do this. Key thought in that last sentence: one manuvers himself into line to do this. Same thing on armbar from full mount: you rotate around the arm to create the technique. Manuvering yourself in this way requires you to create the technique instead of letting the technique create itself. This results in it being jujutsu, requiring force to be overcome to make the technique.

What I am talking about is the exact opposite in some ways. Rather than positioning myself for an armbar and effecting the technique I take a point of attachment and let the technique create itself. Again the armbar analogy. Since the principle is the arm being made to where the ulna is in opposition to the humerus, how can you create that circumstance? You have to have some form of a lever, some form of a fulcrum, and since you are speaking of an armbar, an axis (the body). These can be created any number of ways. The arm can be rotated around the body until the technique creates itself from one position (think that running in circles on the ground break-dance move). If the arm is twisted it will naturally "uncurl" itself to prevent damage to the larger joint of the shoulder. You can also bring the arm into this position by crossing the opponent's center. The key is knowing the mechanics of the armbar and knowing the paths at that particuar instant that allow the technique to come into being and just reinforcing it a little bit instead of forcing the technique. It is just the aikido conept of anything attached to you follows your center being applied.

What I just refrenced has probably been experienced at some point by most submission grapplers. That one technique that you have no idea how you pulled it off when you were position hunting. I am talking about a completely diffrent method of groundwork than any JJ I have ever seen. I have seen some elements present but never in the same coherent pattern without a pattern type thing. A good way to describe it would be letting the body submit itself instead of submitting it.

Hope that helps but I doubt that it can be accurately explained. It just needs to be seen and felt.

Dirk Hanss
08-10-2005, 02:22 AM
Hi Keith,
al little bit off topic.
As an extreme example take France after WWI. They were still so frightened by Germany even though they won they built the Maginot Line. The Maginot LIne was a series of outposts, canons, tank obstecles, etc. along the French-German border. The idea was that the Line would provide France a strong defense against any invading German army and allow them time in which to deal with the invading army. The only problem is that France built the Line across the entire border except along the Ardennes Forest which the French assumed to be impenatrable.


I just was told a little bit different.
Relying on the Ardennes Forrest being impenetable is somewhat weird as that was the same route the Germans (we, my forefathers) did take a few years before.

As you might know the Ardennes mountains are nearly complete Belgian and Luxembourgish.
Anyhow, hoping that the german army would respect thos neutral countries is somehow weird, too, as they did not do so before.

In fact the France was hoping to have enough time to convince Luxembourg, Belgium, and the United States of Netherlands to prolongate the Maginot line on their territory.
They did not want to to offend their neighbours by creating a defence line against them, it is not very useful to try to defend uphill, if you can do so downhill, the border would be significantly shorter, and of course it was a matter of finance. So they wanted the other countries to contribute their part.

Big mistake made from all four of them. There might be some more tactical faults on the French side. But even under WWI conditions, the problem with the static defence line was that if an aggressor would break it at one point by pure power or any trick the hole defence line became useful. And building up that huge Maginot line was done on the expense of other more flexible armed forces.

Let's stop this. I know I am not fully right either, as I am not a military history expert and it does not affect the validty of your arguments.

Cheers Dirk

Jorx
08-10-2005, 02:41 AM
Dustin I'm sorry, it is early morning and I still do not get it what are you trying to say. The thing it began off was that you said in your view Aikido was a circular art, BJJ was a linear art. Now you come up with two therotical BJJ'ish examples and mention that it has been experienced by subgrapplers. Then you say something about completely different method of groundfighting. If I move from top to armbar position I might NOT crank it but wait for his body to stand up, halfcircle around again and catch him into an omoplata or triangle - isn't that what you were talking about? Also if one is holding onto the other hand while armbarred and tries to move into opposite direction to escape I fall on my side which makes for him harder to use the force he uses against me and I catch the armbar...

If one grapples someone with less grappling ability one can pretty much flow around and take only the techniques which he "gives" to you. However if one grapples someone with about the same ability and with maybe bigger size, yes one needs also ALL the attributes BESIDES the pure technique to be succesful.

...but really... maybe I'm getting you here all wrong but it seems the dichotomy you are making is artificial.

DustinAcuff
08-10-2005, 12:09 PM
What I am describing is what I have seen and felt during the ground training and talked with more experienced students with.

The armbar to omoplata is kind of the idea but not really. The technical dynamics are just diffrent. Maybe this would make more sense to you: anything attatched to you must follow your center and anything you are attatched to must follow your center, what I am speaking about is taking advantage of that attatchment by moving my center in such a way that 90 degree angles relative to joints and/or energy given are created and reinforced.

It is not nearly as difficult as it sounds. I guess it is kind of like trying to explain the properties of kote gaeshi to someone who has never seen it. I cannot really speak on technique per se because I have not been taught technique, I have been taught application.

I am not saying that what I am talking about is superior to BJJ, just that the mechanics are a bit more free flow and adaptive. BJJ is like playing body-chess, Kito is like watching a spider rolling up something in it's web. Possibly the diffrence between a good judo throw and a good aikido throw.

Jorx
08-10-2005, 01:32 PM
Have to see it. I can not understand how it's a different system which is not already included in BJJ as well...

And good judo throws IMO are very Aiki sometimes:)

James Clum
08-22-2005, 10:39 PM
A choke can be applied many ways. A person being choked with constricting pressure around the front of the neck will prevent blood flow to the brain. It will also like cause the person to not get air. In addition, baroreceptors are found on the left and right of the adam's apple which when stimulated with pressure can make a person feint. In addition, the vagus nerve runs in this area which when stimulated correctly can cause the heart to react in such a way by the sympathetic nervous system that person could go into cardiac arrest. Although blood flow also comes by way of arteries running through the cervical vertebrae to brain, to keep a person conscious one needs all of the blood and the oxygen that it carries to the brain.
With regard to applying a lock on one finger during a fight, one can definately control a person during a fight with even a tiny pinch. It depends on when you try to take this control. If the person is charging you with a lot of adrenaline, then sure they may not feel it. If a person is putting there hands on you and you both people are relaxed, then controlling fingers, pinching and so on have there place.

Michael Neal
08-23-2005, 11:11 AM
I have had many people try and use pinching, pressure points, and such things during grappling and all they have ever amounted to was a slight annoyance. And it almost never gets them in a better postion, It usually just gets me mad and I tighten my pin or go for a painful submission technique.

Rupert Atkinson
08-23-2005, 06:27 PM
I was taught - in several dfferent places, that a choke blocked off the air (trachea) and that a strangle stopped the flow of blood (ans I still follow this distinction). Of course, you might like to think you can get both at the same time but I was also taught in Judo that the wise artist aims for only one.

Also, once any choke or strangle is 'on' properly it's all over - you can't get out of it. The trick to get out of any such hold is to do so while it is in the process of being applied, which ultimately depeneds upon your skill. If the hold against you is 'on', you obviously do not have the skill, otherwise you would not have ended up in that position.

As a point of note, a good strangle or choke does not hurt at all. If it does, something is amiss.