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xuzen
07-28-2005, 10:58 PM
Fellow aikido enthusiast,

Greetings and salutation to all. In our dojo we have this peculiar training drill and I would like to share with all and also to obtain feedback if anyone else does something similar.

Sensei will ask us to form two lines facing each other, One line will be designated shite/tori and the other line is uke. Distance/maai is very close i.e., half forearm length. Posture is not from the typical kamae but from shizentai or natural posture with hands by the side.

My sensei will call out a random technique, usually simple techniques like irimi-nage, irimi-tsuki, sokumen irimi nage etc. When he yell hajime/begin, the shite will go in, atemi or shove the uke to obtain kuzushi and execute the technique. This means, that the person doing the technique will not wait for uke to initiate the technique but rather he/she will go in and be on the offensive all the way. This is a departure from normal training where shite wait for uke to come with an attack.

Wrt atemi... we are asked to have contact with the uke, albeit not full hard punches, sometimes a slight slap to the face as well. My favourite is to shove the uke and then execute the technique (I deem that less likely to injure uke). Our partner is not gender specific and we have ladies who are as rough as the guys when doing this drill. However this drill is only done by the higher rank students because the ability to take hard ukemi is of paramount importance.

Shite will execute the technique four times, twice on each side of the body and the exchange role where the new shite will execute another four time the same technique, after which sensei will yell a new technique and the drill repeat again.

OK, I hope my written description of the drill is clear. I wonder if anyone does such a type of drill in their dojo. We have this type of training once every forth-night.

Boon.

Nick Simpson
07-29-2005, 01:12 AM
We dont do it in such a drill form, but we do regularly practise 'offensive aikido' whereby tori attacks uke and performs technique from the defensive reaction.

Dirk Hanss
07-29-2005, 04:32 AM
Once we did a similar training. Well mybe mor a preparation or outlook to such kind of drill, as we have experienced judoka and karateka, but all students are aikido-beginners (less than 2 years).
One other reason only to allow higher ranked students to participate, might be that you need to have proved a certain level of responsibility before getting taught that aikido is not dfense-only per se, i.e. from their techniques, but mostly by philosophy.

Dirk

creinig
07-29-2005, 07:29 AM
One question:
Distance/maai is very close i.e., half forearm length. Posture is not from the typical kamae but from shizentai or natural posture with hands by the side.
Is that distance nose-to-nose / body-to-body? And half the forearm only or including hand&fingers? I assume becoming familiar with such a short distance is the main point of that drill, but I'm having some problems visualizing it right now. Oh -- does sensei only announce the technique/throw/lock to be done (with things like how to enter filled in individually by each student) or an entire (kihon | jiu) waza? Hmm, I guess only the former makes sense considering the starting conditions. Gotta try that tonight.. :)

Ron Tisdale
07-29-2005, 08:01 AM
I've done something similar as part of tests (yudansha) but not in regular class I don't think...

Best,
Ron

Yann Golanski
07-29-2005, 09:18 AM
We do something similar.

Shodokan practices starts with two lines, generally higher grades in one and the lower grades in the other. Then the lower line cycles so that each faces a different partner. Sometimes both line move clock-wise so you get to work with everyone. We tend to keep to the lines/cycle all the way through the class until randori/free play.

xuzen
07-29-2005, 10:33 PM
One question:

Is that distance nose-to-nose / body-to-body? And half the forearm only or including hand&fingers? I assume becoming familiar with such a short distance is the main point of that drill, but I'm having some problems visualizing it right now. Oh -- does sensei only announce the technique/throw/lock to be done (with things like how to enter filled in individually by each student) or an entire (kihon | jiu) waza? Hmm, I guess only the former makes sense considering the starting conditions. Gotta try that tonight.. :)

Dear Chris,

With regards to distance; it is like when one partner stretches the arm fully, he is able to touch the shoulder of the person. That is the starting distance of this drill, not the usual two mats length starting maai. Yes Chris, I guess the main point of this drill is to familiarize the students with very close range application of aikido techniques... something which the usual kata do not address.

Sensei will announce the technique to be done eg. irimi-tsuki. Then it is shite/tori/nage that will enter and execute the technique pre-emptively. In a sense we are practicing sen initiative, i.e, to attack before uke has a chance to do anything. However, I am unsure if this is what sensei would like to achieve, but is based on my observation.

To illustrate: When sensei say call out sokumen irimi-nage, I, as shite will move into uke, execute a gyaku yokomen-uchi strike to initiate a response from uke (e.g. a flinch) followed quickly by the said sokumen irimi-nage. So rather than wait for uke to come at me with an attack, the shite enter with a attack, quickly followed by the technique. And yes, Chris, how the shite enter is entirely up to him.

Chris, I hope my posting can help you to visualize this training drill.

Boon.

Jorx
07-30-2005, 02:33 PM
Is the uke allowed to resist?

kokyu
07-30-2005, 10:31 PM
Dear Chris,

In a sense we are practicing sen initiative, i.e, to attack before uke has a chance to do anything. However, I am unsure if this is what sensei would like to achieve, but is based on my observation.



This is an interesting thread. Even though I have never experienced this type of drill, I have been thinking about the "right" way to draw uke out - i.e. to "encourage" him to move in a certain way to your advantage. In my limited experience, this is often done by offering a shoulder or wrist to uke - i.e. a relatively peaceful method as opposed to attacking him. And I have long thought that this should be the way. However, some recent four-on-one randori practice has changed my views ;)

I think it is all right "to atack before uke has a chance to do anything" as long as one assumes that uke has a **hostile**intent**. We are just attacking uke to provoke a reaction that will be advantageous to us. And our aim is to bring him down without causing injury. Perhaps the problem comes when we are training and we know that uke doesn't really have hostile intent. So, it seems wrong to be overly aggresive towards your friend-in-training.

Just my thoughts. :rolleyes:

xuzen
08-01-2005, 02:21 AM
Is the uke allowed to resist?
Dear Jorgen,

It is not overtly stated. But as a norm in my dojo... if the technique is done correctly e.g, balance was successfully taken then uke just go with the flow and take an ukemi. If it is not, uke does not fall, because he/she doesn't have to. In my dojo, our uke are encouraged to be "lazy" wrt taking ukemi. Shite has to make uke take the fall.

If your notion of resistance is such that the two party participate in struggle ala Judo shiai, then the answer is no.

Boon.

happysod
08-01-2005, 03:57 AM
With regards to distance; it is like when one partner stretches the arm fully, he is able to touch the shoulder of the person. Not fully on-topic, but this seems an odd distance to start as you're still in hitting range yet still not really dealing with particularly cramped conditions. Do you vary this distance much as I presume this is just an initial position? (forgotten about the 2-mats width start in yoshi, always wondered about that one as well)

Faith Hansen
08-16-2005, 05:10 AM
Okay, my problem with this is that you "shove" your uke to obtain kuzushi. That seems excessive and not very blending. In order to have shodo o seisu, you don't have to rush in and shove your uke to obtain it. It seems like you are becoming the uke and your partner should defend against you. To get kuzushi, you only need to move your uke and inch or so. Very slight. Shoving someone in order to obtain this would only make the technique and your uke more aggressive.

HangJebat
08-16-2005, 06:35 AM
I used to join this kind of training
similar to to what Mr. Boon describe

we call it
- hajime class

for 1 particular technique, like
- shomen uchi sankajo osae ichi
starting both uke & shite already in right kamae position
when sensei gives command: HAJIME !!!
the person at the kamiza side starts doing the technique
after finishing the lock, both back to kamae position
and wait for the next 'hajime' command
then, the same person doing the left side technique

the drilling part in training here is that
you don't even finish executing the technique
but you already hear the sensei yelling KAMAE!!! and then HAJIME!!!

I wont forget my first 'Hajime Class'
where I only survived for only 30 minutes
because I vomit after practicing that 'sankajo ichi' technique

just before the training, I had heavy dinner
and I didn't expect to have the 'hajime class' at that hour

for the next 'hajime class'
I'm ready for it!!!

OSU!!!

xuzen
08-26-2005, 10:59 PM
Okay, my problem with this is that you "shove" your uke to obtain kuzushi. That seems excessive and not very blending. In order to have shodo o seisu, you don't have to rush in and shove your uke to obtain it. It seems like you are becoming the uke and your partner should defend against you. To get kuzushi, you only need to move your uke and inch or so. Very slight. Shoving someone in order to obtain this would only make the technique and your uke more aggressive.

Dear Faith,

The standard Yoshinkan syllabus indicate a distinct role between uke and shite, which most aikido practitioners are familiar with; uke attack, shite execute a technique. However, in this drill that I talked about; is a departure from this norm…

The objective of this drill is not to blend and wait for the attack to come. The mindset that I have at the moment of doing this technique is not of aggressive nature, but rather to cultivate a sense of taking the initiative, to pre-emptive tie up a potential attacker before he/she can even launch an attack. In this sense, T. Nariyama of the Tomiki-ryu school states this as sen sen no sen initiative in his writing. More information can be obtained here:
http://judoinfo.com/gonosen.htm

I think this could be due to the nature of the work of the Tokyo Riot Police which required this type of training. Faith, I am not a Riot Policemen, but my sensei did train with these people at Yoshinkan Hombu and maybe he is just trying to give us a different outlook wrt our aikido study. I personally think that it could be the nature of their job which required them to partake in this type of drill… e.g. crowd control.

However, for me, it is a breath of fresh air to practice outside the norm and to get a feel of a different kind of training flavour.

HangJebat said:
I used to join this kind of training
similar to to what Mr. Boon describe we call it- hajime class

Yes, HangJebat, I believe Hajime is the name sensei said wrt such type of training. Hmmm... maybe it is just me, but I have this nagging feeling that only the Yoshinkan school does such drills.

Boon.