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Jiawei
07-20-2005, 10:09 AM
I feel that it is important for any Martial Artist to realistically analyze his or her own art's strengths and weaknesses to improve, refine and bring out the best of the martial art.

This is not intended to answer or start the question : " does aikido work. " but rather in the hope that aikidokas can analyze the strenghts and weaknesses in the aiki concepts to improve on self defense techniques. I hope that I did not offend anybody.

So I'll start the ball rolling:

Strength: Aiki concept of circular motion and footwork works if there is one attacker and you have your back against the wall. With proper ma ai ( distancing) and good timing an irimi or tenkan can get you out of the situation-of which you could either run away or execute a strong atemi or throw or whatever the situation calls for.

Also, irimi, tenkan and the constant encouragement to be on the move increases the odds of surviving a multiple attacker situation. The concept of the dynamics of movement allows you to move better through an opening in such a situation. (This does not neccessarily mean that we can cream all the attackers like sensei Segal on tv.) It just increases the odds of survival.

Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.

Hope that this doesn;t deviate to : "does it work or not?" and that I did not offend anybody. Also hope that this thread sparks a healthy discussion so we can improve. After all, geniuses in the martial arts world were born because they studied their art and improvised to improve time and time again. This is evident even in the Aikido circles where we have quite a number of styles each having its different emphasis be it Ki development, technique development or competition.

rogueenergy
07-20-2005, 12:56 PM
Interesting post. I'll have to digest it again and again. I have the advantage of being part of a dojo that is not directly affiliated with any particular style. I've watched the yudansha of my dojo go off to a large variety of seminars and every time they come back they share the knowledge they gained. Which I feel is on the same vein of what you are getting at. Why should we be limited to this or that when it is all relevant.

I've recently been trying to see the art in Aikido. It has been instilled in me that Aikido is like the universe. As such, I've been trying to see the similarities between the two. If Aikido is like the universe then wouldn't all things be Aikido?

While "wearing the shoes of the beginner", I have found it difficult to see the art and the universe in Aikido. I've been too focused on where my various body parts go to execute the technique. But, now that I have become determined to see the art I'm getting glimpses. As a martial art, and us as martial artists is it not our duty to find things that haven't been done to improve or evolve Aikido?

Kevin Leavitt
07-20-2005, 01:33 PM
most aikido dojos will focus on the underlying principles of dyanmic movement and the relationship of space, time, distance, and the relationship of on body against one or several. The exercises, kata, and techniques are designed to help you discover these principles.

The principles are essentially universal in nature. Therefore, what you do in aikido, if done correctly would apply to any martial art.

I see the same things in BJJ that I see in aikido when applied correctly. It may not look like aikido since many of the exercises, kata, techniques start from a slightly different set of conditions, but in theory and correct applicaiton...they would be the same.

I would say..."yes" Aikido is universal. Does not mean that everything else would mirror aikido though since it is possible to appy things in the converse incorrectly.

However even when applied incorrectly, say using force or strength, eventually physics will yield and things will come back to equilibrum and the principles of dynamic movement would once again apply, therefore, even that action would be considered "aikido".

But, most would say it was not aikido. Why?

Because there is more to aikido and the correct application of it than pure physics or technique.

There is the attitude, compassion, and action/reaction in which it is applied.

So, even though we have physical principles...you must also have the spiritual, mental, and philosophical elements that accompany the art in order to have aikido.

Resolving conflict with the minimal amount of force, seeking to embrace, blend, and harmonize...to understand and have compassion.

Well enough of my ramblings!

DustinAcuff
07-20-2005, 01:50 PM
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.


Okay...I believe that tis statement is wrong for a number of reasons. First, the techniques were origionally desigened to be used on fully trained samurai (going back to Daito). Please tell my why one would attempt to punch someone wielding a sword at you wearing full armor? The purpose of grabbing was to get inside the ma ai on the sword. The principle still applies (timing, distance, and most importantly feel/intuition) but there is no reason that a) and attack should be devalued since it is a grab and b) because an attacker made it inside your ma ai does not in any way you are defenseless.

Aiki means blending of energies, more specifically positive and negative energies to bring about neutralization (-1+1=0) As such if you are correctly using aiki and blending the any time someone projects any kind of attack at you you should become kuzushi. One physical contact is made between two people each is at the mercy of the other's center through kuzushi.

Lorien Lowe
07-20-2005, 02:54 PM
IWeakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. .

Regardless of whether or not uke is wearing armour, my impression has always been that one should never pull.
Extend into uke and then roll around their resistance to take them off balance.

So I guess I would say weakness: ikkyo when being attempted on someone much taller than oneself (though in reality, I'd choose a different technique unles humongo-uke's balance was coincidentally just right for this one).

-LK

MattRice
07-20-2005, 03:06 PM
kata dori ikkyo. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.

That opening has to be filled with atemi. In my experience, with a resisting partner I cannot get kata dori ikkyo with out uke having to react to atemi. So when you talk about a 'shomen tski' being sufficient, I think you're right. If they don't react and avoid the punch, you don't really need ikkyo do ya?

OTOH, I've seen folks omit the pull back (or whatever you want to call it) altogether and just enter and meet the grab with an advancing shoulder. Usually ends in nikyo though...

Please tell my why one would attempt to punch someone wielding a sword at you wearing full armor?
Maybe you lost your sword? The way I've learned, the atemi (read: punch uke in the face) is critical to the technique working.
Off to find some armor wearing uke!

DustinAcuff
07-20-2005, 03:33 PM
I hate to say it, but I think atemi is a rather bad thing to rely on to preform your techniques. IMHO if you can only remove balance through atemi then you don't know what you are doing and need to go back to basics. Yes, atemi are valuable tools, a well placed strike can lead to uke taking his own balance, but there is no technique I've ever seen that can only be done with atemi. In my school we don't even learn atemi until 2-3 years after we start. Any time someone touches you or you touch them, as an Aikidoka you have complete control of their center. Case in point: an advanced (Daito Ryu) techniqu has nage sitting seiza with uke grabbing nage's ear like he is going to rip it off, then nage rolls his head and uke flys across the room. If you can throw someone with your earlobe then you darn sure can do ikkyo without atemi. Also, I have had ikkyo done on me a numbe of times at full speed and the last thing I remember after thowing that punch is being on the ground with my arm close to its breaking point. There is not an opening there unless you (nage) put it there.

I won't deny atemi have value. I also won't deny that I have heard that at the Aiki Expo in LA the senior 8th dans in Daito beat the crap out of some uke's with atemi before finishing the technique. But if you cannot do a technique to someone giving active resistance without using atemi then you might want to rethink what you are doing. Atemi create openings where there are none and finish uke when he cannot be reasoned with, they do not make the technique.

Demetrio Cereijo
07-20-2005, 04:41 PM
We can have different point of views about atemi; for me, atemi is essential to aikido (is what makes the difference with judo: removing balance without atemi).

Case in point: an advanced (Daito Ryu) techniqu has nage sitting seiza with uke grabbing nage's ear like he is going to rip it off, then nage rolls his head and uke flys across the room.

I want to take ukemi for that. :D

eyrie
07-20-2005, 08:18 PM
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.

I think you're confusing "form" with "functional" use (or vice versa).

Amassus
07-20-2005, 10:07 PM
I'm going to go back to the original question.

I agree with the strengths of Aikido that have already mentioned.

Weakness: if taken too far, the atmosphere in the club can become so relaxed that the uke's do not attack effectively anymore. Honest attacks in Aikido are often too little and far between.

This is not a problem of the art itself I guess, but of the participants.

Jiawei
07-21-2005, 12:43 AM
I think you're confusing "form" with "functional" use (or vice versa).

Hi Ignatius, I do not understand form from functional. Could you elaborate ? Thanks .

Jiawei
07-21-2005, 12:47 AM
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.


Okay...I believe that tis statement is wrong for a number of reasons. First, the techniques were origionally desigened to be used on fully trained samurai (going back to Daito). Please tell my why one would attempt to punch someone wielding a sword at you wearing full armor? The purpose of grabbing was to get inside the ma ai on the sword. The principle still applies (timing, distance, and most importantly feel/intuition) but there is no reason that a) and attack should be devalued since it is a grab and b) because an attacker made it inside your ma ai does not in any way you are defenseless.

Aiki means blending of energies, more specifically positive and negative energies to bring about neutralization (-1+1=0) As such if you are correctly using aiki and blending the any time someone projects any kind of attack at you you should become kuzushi. One physical contact is made between two people each is at the mercy of the other's center through kuzushi.

I never devalued the attack. But what I am questioning is the response to the attack, in this case kata dori ikkyo. As mentioned earlier, just pulling back to try to throw the attacker off balance wastes too much time and leaves you vulnerable; a simple atemi
discourages the attacker and addresses the need for self defense in such a situation. This is what I mean as the weakness in kata dori ikkyo. It is the technique I want to discuss and how we as Aikidokas can improve the martial side of Aikido.

Your post confirms the discussion: we no longer live in the age of armour or swords. We need to improvise to improve our techniques to prepare this generation for the streets. I'm not suggesting aggression, I am suggesting an improved ( technical) Aikido. To say that Aikido works in all situations may be gross arrogance. But to say that it doesn't work at all is gross ignorance. We need to realistically analyze ourselves technically to improve. And thus, started this thread started.

Jiawei
07-21-2005, 12:59 AM
I'm going to go back to the original question.

I agree with the strengths of Aikido that have already mentioned.

Weakness: if taken too far, the atmosphere in the club can become so relaxed that the uke's do not attack effectively anymore. Honest attacks in Aikido are often too little and far between.

This is not a problem of the art itself I guess, but of the participants.

I agree. And thus the two fold benefit of practicing Atemi : 1) We can hone ourselves technically. Once again I am not suggesting violence or sparring but a spirited atemi practice. (But who can tell wether sparring will be included in Aikido in the future when after all, competitive tomiki Aikido was developed)

2) Some situations demand the use of atemi. It can be more effective than doing the throws or locks. Since it was included by O Sensei, why not use it ? Maximize the Aikido we practice. Shouldn't shortchange ourselves from better self defense.

I am open to any corrrection.

Jiawei
07-21-2005, 01:06 AM
Interesting post. I'll have to digest it again and again. I have the advantage of being part of a dojo that is not directly affiliated with any particular style. I've watched the yudansha of my dojo go off to a large variety of seminars and every time they come back they share the knowledge they gained. Which I feel is on the same vein of what you are getting at. Why should we be limited to this or that when it is all relevant.

I've recently been trying to see the art in Aikido. It has been instilled in me that Aikido is like the universe. As such, I've been trying to see the similarities between the two. If Aikido is like the universe then wouldn't all things be Aikido?

While "wearing the shoes of the beginner", I have found it difficult to see the art and the universe in Aikido. I've been too focused on where my various body parts go to execute the technique. But, now that I have become determined to see the art I'm getting glimpses. As a martial art, and us as martial artists is it not our duty to find things that haven't been done to improve or evolve Aikido?

Agreed. Just an opinion: It is the individual duty to improve our technical abilities. Then we wouldn't be so irked by the question : Does Aikido work ? Instead, find out what of Aikido works and what doesen't in a particular scenario . Then improve on the areas that you feel are weak. I mean, that's how the Martial Arts were born right ? They had to figure out possible attacks and possible appropriate responses based on a certain philosophy. In the case of Aikido, its compassion and the choice of the amount of damage that is needed in a situation.

eyrie
07-21-2005, 01:28 AM
Hi Ignatius, I do not understand form from functional. Could you elaborate ? Thanks .

"Form" is a stylized expression of "how you do" technique. i.e. it defines a particular "shape" of the technique. "Function" is the "application" of the "form", and rarely vaguely resembles the "form".

So when you say:

Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.


It tells me one thing (well, actually 2): that your "entry" and timing is off.... ;)


A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.


Yes, of course that works. But, IMHO, it interrupts the flow. Done properly with proper kokyu extension, the elbow lock should already come on before uke has grabbed and uke should end up horizontal to floor and do a face plant. Nice technique... hard to take ukemi for. ;)

FWIW,

Ignatius

Jiawei
07-21-2005, 01:58 AM
"Form" is a stylized expression of "how you do" technique. i.e. it defines a particular "shape" of the technique. "Function" is the "application" of the "form", and rarely vaguely resembles the "form".

So when you say:


It tells me one thing (well, actually 2): that your "entry" and timing is off.... ;)



Yes, of course that works. But, IMHO, it interrupts the flow. Done properly with proper kokyu extension, the elbow lock should already come on before uke has grabbed and uke should end up horizontal to floor and do a face plant. Nice technique... hard to take ukemi for. ;)

FWIW,

Ignatius

Elbow lock come on before the Uke has grabbed means perform pull back before he grabs me? I lead him to lose his balance ?

I see now: The form is like kata -when applied in a situation its the principal that counts so the form may teach you something principally and can be applied under certain circumstances. Thank you for the reply, my pleasure chatting with you.

Jorx
07-21-2005, 04:22 AM
Well the strength is that these concepts in theory are very foolproof.
Also I find this peaceful ideology to be a strength and via that Aikido may become a strong tool for self-development for some ppl.

Weakness: the concepts are practiced in a dead manner against unrealistic opposition which imho is flawed from the martial point of view from the very beginning - concept of uke and nage. It all dervies somehow from the very same philosophy I view as a strength of aikido.

eyrie
07-21-2005, 04:29 AM
Aikido is full of paradoxes. ;)

eyrie
07-21-2005, 04:49 AM
Elbow lock come on before the Uke has grabbed means perform pull back before he grabs me? I lead him to lose his balance ?


On page 200 of Shioda's Total Aikido - The Master Course, Shioda can be seen doing kata tori ikkyo without atemi, from the grab, where uke already has a firm grip.


I see now: The form is like kata -when applied in a situation its the principal that counts so the form may teach you something principally and can be applied under certain circumstances.

;)

Kevin Leavitt
07-21-2005, 12:55 PM
Sure techniques can be peformed without atemi. However, as someone stated above...without atemi, or the threat of atemi...you essentially end up with judo strategies...nothing wrong with that....but fight strategies become different and you must be careful not to form a game plan based around no strikes.

Basically I find that aikido techniques work without strikes because aikidoka get used to working in their own paradigm of training and "do things" "aiki" like that allow them to work.

Go ahead and grab a decent judo guy, jiujitsu practioner...or even a novice in martial arts that does not play the aikido game...and you will find that things are difficult to perform on them. However, add in atemi/threat of it...and things change dramatically!

I think this is why many in aikido get a complex about aikido not working for real..they learn things...take them on the street...then find out that they are missing some key points, and the novice uke smirks...discredits what you are doing...and moves on!

DustinAcuff
07-21-2005, 01:13 PM
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.

Where do you pull in aikido? I assume that you already let uke get ahold of you, in which case you trap his arm then tenkan to let his center follow yours, pulling means whoever has the most mass and muscle wins.

I think some of the problem is you are trying to place the weaknesses of aikido on a single technique. If ikkyo don't work then go to shiho nage or sankyo. The most important thing to develop is "feel" and being able to sense the slightest resistance to your technique. If you go into the resistance then you cannot properly do your technique but if you go in the same direction he is resisting then he cannot resist.

Try this. Sit seiza with a friend behind you in seiza grabbing your arm across your chest with both hands. Try to extend your arm with muscle. You probably cant do it unless you are much larger than him but it will still take alot of effort. Now do the same thing again but when he starts pulling back his opposite arm should be pulling you a bit off to the side. Quickly straighten your arm in the same direction he is pulling and at full extention point in whatever direction you want him to go, generally to the same side as your arm is on. So if he is grabbing your left arm, extend out to the right then make an arc back to the left.

Out of curioscity why are uke and nage flawed? You have someone who is attacking and someone who is being attacked. Seems pretty accurate to me.

Jiawei
07-22-2005, 08:00 AM
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.

Where do you pull in aikido? I assume that you already let uke get ahold of you, in which case you trap his arm then tenkan to let his center follow yours, pulling means whoever has the most mass and muscle wins.

I think some of the problem is you are trying to place the weaknesses of aikido on a single technique. If ikkyo don't work then go to shiho nage or sankyo. The most important thing to develop is "feel" and being able to sense the slightest resistance to your technique. If you go into the resistance then you cannot properly do your technique but if you go in the same direction he is resisting then he cannot resist.

Try this. Sit seiza with a friend behind you in seiza grabbing your arm across your chest with both hands. Try to extend your arm with muscle. You probably cant do it unless you are much larger than him but it will still take alot of effort. Now do the same thing again but when he starts pulling back his opposite arm should be pulling you a bit off to the side. Quickly straighten your arm in the same direction he is pulling and at full extention point in whatever direction you want him to go, generally to the same side as your arm is on. So if he is grabbing your left arm, extend out to the right then make an arc back to the left.

Out of curioscity why are uke and nage flawed? You have someone who is attacking and someone who is being attacked. Seems pretty accurate to me.

Dustin, no I am not emphasizing or placing technical weaknesses based on one technique. I am using that as 1 example of a technical weakness. As mentioned by Ignatius, I was probably not considering the functional aspect of that "kata". And once again, I am trying to spark discussion on technical strengths and weakness of Aikido in the hope of improving.

Dirk Hanss
07-22-2005, 08:22 AM
Dustin, no I am not emphasizing or placing technical weaknesses based on one technique. I am using that as 1 example of a technical weakness. As mentioned by Ignatius, I was probably not considering the functional aspect of that "kata". And once again, I am trying to spark discussion on technical strengths and weakness of Aikido in the hope of improving.

Hi Jiawei,
I understand your point, but your example is still only one technique and probably in a basic version. In most aiki-dojo you learn long type techniques in order to get the feeling and start to execute the moves instinctively. Some sensei stick to rather long forms, either because they do not know other or because they want to focus on the DO in aikido and see fighting skills as a (potential) add-on, or one of a hundred other reasons.
I have seen ikkyo against tsuki that looked more like those narrow circular techniques of fencing. Only instead of the final strike (atemi) nage turned and led uke's attacking arm in a spiral down. Well most aikidoka might have preferred a similar iriminage. But whatever technique you will take, you can improve it dramatically to fill those holes, if your timing gets (nearly) perfect and if you find someone to practice on these items.

If it is not possible at your dojo, you might visit others from time to time.

But there are very good reason, why many dojo do not go for that before sufficient experience (somtimes 3rd Dan).

Regards Dirk

DustinAcuff
07-22-2005, 12:15 PM
If you want to understand the stregnths and weaknesses best on the technical side of the art then you are just fine on the internet.

But my advice is that if you want to expand and broaden your Aikido in terms of effectiveness then I would very much suggest that you go to a few local Aikido schools that emphasize reality based training AND have someone who has been there and done that, someone who has had to use his/her skills in real life for a prolonged period of time. Most people don't think outside the box they are trained in, so to get the best quality of training you need the highest trained lifelong martial artis with EXPERIENCE.

Please forgive me if I have sounded a little condecending, but I have seen a child (about 4'8" maybe 85 lbs and only 11 years old) preform that technique reliably on most of the people in our dojo smoothly enough that most of the adult males (around 200-230 lbs and 6' give or take 3 inches) like they were nothing without any gaps that needed atemi. I am just honestly perplexed about that statement.

Jiawei
07-23-2005, 08:33 AM
Hi Jiawei,
I understand your point, but your example is still only one technique and probably in a basic version. In most aiki-dojo you learn long type techniques in order to get the feeling and start to execute the moves instinctively. Some sensei stick to rather long forms, either because they do not know other or because they want to focus on the DO in aikido and see fighting skills as a (potential) add-on, or one of a hundred other reasons.
I have seen ikkyo against tsuki that looked more like those narrow circular techniques of fencing. Only instead of the final strike (atemi) nage turned and led uke's attacking arm in a spiral down. Well most aikidoka might have preferred a similar iriminage. But whatever technique you will take, you can improve it dramatically to fill those holes, if your timing gets (nearly) perfect and if you find someone to practice on these items.

If it is not possible at your dojo, you might visit others from time to time.

But there are very good reason, why many dojo do not go for that before sufficient experience (somtimes 3rd Dan).

Regards Dirk

Thank you for the reply. Perhaps like what Dustin suggested, I do need more experienced Aikidokas to do real life simulations with me to improve on my techniques. I suppose they would be more than happy to help out.

So , as a sideline, is JO training close to Shinto Ryu Muso ? Well, I'm kind of thiking of joining this club and am kind of fascinated with the art

Dirk Hanss
07-23-2005, 09:23 AM
Thank you for the reply. Perhaps like what Dustin suggested, I do need more experienced Aikidokas to do real life simulations with me to improve on my techniques. I suppose they would be more than happy to help out.

Yes, experienced and targeting for "real life" simulation. Many aikidoka, 'though experienced will deny to do so, but it is still all aikido.

So , as a sideline, is JO training close to Shinto Ryu Muso ? Well, I'm kind of thiking of joining this club and am kind of fascinated with the art
As far as I recall, O'sensei had trained Shinto Ryu Muso and took many of the techniques from them. And my google search supports this. So, yes, it might be a good idea.

Cheers Dirk :)

Ketsan
07-23-2005, 02:02 PM
Please forgive me if I have sounded a little condecending, but I have seen a child (about 4'8" maybe 85 lbs and only 11 years old) preform that technique reliably on most of the people in our dojo smoothly enough that most of the adult males (around 200-230 lbs and 6' give or take 3 inches) like they were nothing without any gaps that needed atemi. I am just honestly perplexed about that statement.

Would anyone in the dojo feel right just standing there with an 11 year old clinging onto them trying to do a technique?

DustinAcuff
07-23-2005, 06:33 PM
It was a little uncomfortable until we taught him to tenkan as he cuts, then suddenly you are down laughing that someone that small dropped you that easily.

wendyrowe
07-23-2005, 08:07 PM
I hate to say it, but I think atemi is a rather bad thing to rely on to preform your techniques. IMHO if you can only remove balance through atemi then you don't know what you are doing and need to go back to basics... if you cannot do a technique to someone giving active resistance without using atemi then you might want to rethink what you are doing. Atemi create openings where there are none and finish uke when he cannot be reasoned with, they do not make the technique.
In TRADITIONAL AIKIDO (oh, how I wish I could find a copy of the set for myself!) Saito Sensei quotes O'Sensei as saying that "Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido." So it definitely sounds like something worth using. I agree, though, that one should learn the basics of the technique first -- to me, though, that's to make sure I understand the required positioning without the distraction of doing the atemi.

DustinAcuff
07-23-2005, 09:45 PM
I guess that makes sense if you concider atemi any way to employ kuzushi. I am being taught to not strike since that was the way that K. Yonezawa taught my sensei, but we do make extensive use of cuts (which I am begining to believe that our cuts are quite diffrent from Aikido cuts), pressure points and pressure zones, and a number of intresting rotational motions to immedately break spinal alignment and therefore balance on uke. As I am being taught, atemi are strikes, specifically finishing strikes that are used only when your goal is to maim or kill uke. If our definitions of atemi are diffrent and yours includes all forms of cuts and the like then I can see where that would be completely true.

However I do not see any value in only being able to do your techniques after you have broken uke's nose or xiphoid process, which would fit more within my definition of atemi. That seems more than a little bit barbaric and overkill to me. I still stand behind my belief that if you cannot do your techniques without punching uke in the face then you need to practice alot more.

Kevin Leavitt
07-24-2005, 03:31 AM
it's not necessary to hit uke, but to be able to do so that sets up the dynamic that allows aikido to work.

I can't tell you how many times I have worked with non-aikidoka and they don't get it. They can thrwart all your techniques by assumming away the atemi that is there. You almost have to really hit them in order for them to "get it"

Ketsan
07-24-2005, 06:26 PM
However I do not see any value in only being able to do your techniques after you have broken uke's nose or xiphoid process, which would fit more within my definition of atemi. That seems more than a little bit barbaric and overkill to me. I still stand behind my belief that if you cannot do your techniques without punching uke in the face then you need to practice alot more.

The point is if you're really using the techniques you wont have an uke. Even if I was confident that my Aikido would bring down an opponent without atemi, he'd still get a smack or three. I don't know what he knows, I don't know how far he's willing to go and I don't know if he's carrying a weapon. It's safer for me to be fighting someone who's blinded, stunned, has breathing difficulties and is thinking about the smack he just got than it is for me to be fighting a fully functioning opponent. On top of that it makes bringing them down that much easier.

CNYMike
07-24-2005, 08:49 PM
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.


Aikido is structured so that any given attack is answered not by one technique but as many as possible if not all of them. The reason should be obvious: If the first thing you try fails or is countered, you want as many other options as you want ready to go. So even if you don't favor kata dori ikkyo, it would be a good idea to keep it and as many other responses to kata dori (which, remember, is really the first half of a grab-and-strike combo) in your aresenal as possible. That includes the strikes, too; don't rule anything out.

Jiawei
07-25-2005, 05:59 AM
Guys, to supplement the discussion I like to introduce you to this article : http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=112

Maybe you have already read it .

Jiawei
07-25-2005, 06:02 AM
Why do we seem to separate atemi from aikido ? Did not O sensei incorporate it ? Surely its good enough a reason to see a need for it . Isn't it just a teenie arrogant to say "no" we don't need atemi ?

eyrie
07-25-2005, 06:50 AM
Hello? What the heck is uke learning to do if not atemi?

CNYMike
07-25-2005, 11:53 AM
Guys, to supplement the discussion I like to introduce you to this article : http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=112

Maybe you have already read it .

Nope, not until today. Crosstraining is probably the easiest thing to do. WRT his recommendations, easier said than done. You can devote a whole class to sutdying attacks and not even get to the counters. I know; I've seen that. And safety should always be a prime consideration. Full contact people already know how to do that stuff safely with a minimum of injury; if you don't know how to do that, don't try it.

Kent Enfield
07-25-2005, 03:25 PM
As far as I recall, O'sensei had trained Shinto Ryu Muso and took many of the techniques from them. And my google search supports this.Meik and Diane Skoss; both of whom have spent significant time training in aikido and Shinto Muso Ryu, as well as other arts; seem to disagree with that. Here is a thread over at e-budo, which at least used to be a wonderful place to ask such questions:

Origins of Aiki-jo (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=773&highlight=aikido+jukendo)

And for people unfamiliar with the Skosses, links to the website that Diane runs:

Koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com/)

And their M.A. C.V.:

Shutokukan Instructors (http://www.shutokukan.org/instructors.html)

Ron Tisdale
07-25-2005, 04:00 PM
And its Shinto Muso Ryu....

Ron

Jiawei
08-09-2005, 07:23 AM
Revaluation of Kata dori ikkyo : 1) As the uke is lunging foward to grab your lapel, you pull back diagonally. 2) Using the other (cutting) hand to pull him in the direction he is lunging to take his balance. 3) At this instance, you perform ikkyo.

Pulling back distracts the uke's ki or focus.

Been thinking of the principal the form was trying to illustrate. Thanks Ignatius !

Jiawei
08-09-2005, 07:30 AM
Zanshin- the harder the opponent comes the harder he will fall because I simply reflect his actions. I blend with him. Aikido isn't meant to deal with peace loving people, but really violent ones; no action = no action. Because I am the mirror of actions. Thus Aikido is really ineffective only around peace loving people. Our art is an art of peace.

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 01:42 PM
Jiawei great post. Not sure I agree with your zanshin definition, but that is irrelevant.

You are right on the money on Ikkyo. The instant the attack is launched the trajectory, duration, and power are already in place. The attacker already knows if he is going to pull back into a fighting stance or not. He also already knows where you are and where he is attacking. Getting off the line, or irimi, completely disrupts his attack on all fronts. Now mid attack the information he had whne he initiated the attack is no longer relavent so he has to go back to the drawing board. If you create an offset in his balance while his attack is comitted then he is screwed. His energy is already given and extened and until his attack is completed he cannot withdraw it. The cut/pull/offset is kinda like using a brick to hold a door open.

L. Camejo
08-09-2005, 05:58 PM
Interesting discussion.

It may benefit from a listing or understanding of what the Aiki concepts are to begin with however. There is a lot of talk about waza, atemi etc., but to me these are external expressions of fundamental principles and concepts that make up an understanding of "Aiki" long before one even enters the physical expression of a particular technique.

Go ahead and grab a decent judo guy, jiujitsu practioner...or even a novice in martial arts that does not play the aikido game...and you will find that things are difficult to perform on them. However, add in atemi/threat of it...and things change dramatically!
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, did not need atemi either (so far). They never knew what hit them and just sat there for a few minutes wondering what just happened. Judoka, Jujutsuka etc. tend to be very good scrappers and fighters, but when Aiki is used properly there is no fight, no struggle, only the right response to the situation. It's only limitation exists in the mind and body of the individual and the training methods employed to be able (or unable)to achieve these levels in the face of trained people. Often those who fail in the application of Aiki do so because they want to contest their attacker's force, iow they want to fight/struggle or they are so caught up/fettered by form that the formless nature of true Aiki totally evades them. If you try to fight a fighter who is better and more experienced at it than you are, then the resultant failure should be no mystery imho.

Just my 2 cents. Within each concept, element, strategy, tactic and principle there is so much to be learnt that can be applied in so many ways.

LC:ai::ki:

Jiawei
08-09-2005, 06:45 PM
Jiawei great post. Not sure I agree with your zanshin definition, but that is irrelevant.

You are right on the money on Ikkyo. The instant the attack is launched the trajectory, duration, and power are already in place. The attacker already knows if he is going to pull back into a fighting stance or not. He also already knows where you are and where he is attacking. Getting off the line, or irimi, completely disrupts his attack on all fronts. Now mid attack the information he had whne he initiated the attack is no longer relavent so he has to go back to the drawing board. If you create an offset in his balance while his attack is comitted then he is screwed. His energy is already given and extened and until his attack is completed he cannot withdraw it. The cut/pull/offset is kinda like using a brick to hold a door open.


I think Zanshin means to have a mind as calm as still waters so that you can get the true reflection of the "moon". If your mind is calm, it will be like a miror reflecting your opponent's every move accurately. If your mind is fearful, it is like water that ripples-your opponent's reflection is distorted and you will cause yourself harm.

Thus, if the people are peaceful, there is no action to "reflect" and thus no need to employ Aikido. Just me rambling......

Jiawei
08-09-2005, 06:54 PM
Interesting discussion.

It may benefit from a listing or understanding of what the Aiki concepts are to begin with however. There is a lot of talk about waza, atemi etc., but to me these are external expressions of fundamental principles and concepts that make up an understanding of "Aiki" long before one even enters the physical expression of a particular technique.


Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, did not need atemi either (so far). They never knew what hit them and just sat there for a few minutes wondering what just happened. Judoka, Jujutsuka etc. tend to be very good scrappers and fighters, but when Aiki is used properly there is no fight, no struggle, only the right response to the situation. It's only limitation exists in the mind and body of the individual and the training methods employed to be able (or unable)to achieve these levels in the face of trained people. Often those who fail in the application of Aiki do so because they want to contest their attacker's force, iow they want to fight/struggle or they are so caught up/fettered by form that the formless nature of true Aiki totally evades them. If you try to fight a fighter who is better and more experienced at it than you are, then the resultant failure should be no mystery imho.

Just my 2 cents. Within each concept, element, strategy, tactic and principle there is so much to be learnt that can be applied in so many ways.

LC:ai::ki:

YUPS!!

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 09:32 PM
I always understood zanshin to be a state of hightened awarenes. The mirror analogy makes no sense to me. You and I may be talking about the same thing, maybe not...

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 09:34 PM
Yay! Someone else says aikido can be done without atemi! I'm soo happy!

Jiawei
08-11-2005, 01:40 AM
Yay! Someone else says aikido can be done without atemi! I'm soo happy!

Hmm, can't say I agree with that. O sensei incorporated Atemi for a reason. I dont claim to know the specificities but maybe its not so good to do away with waht he wanted to include ? I mean he was "O" Sensei .

L. Camejo
08-11-2005, 09:46 AM
Hmm, can't say I agree with that. O sensei incorporated Atemi for a reason. I dont claim to know the specificities but maybe its not so good to do away with waht he wanted to include ? I mean he was "O" Sensei .
Being able to execute effective waza without Atemi does not mean that one eliminates Atemi from one's practice, only that one also develops the other elements that make Aiki waza effective. Too often Aikidoka appear to believe that Atemi is the be all and end all of effective waza, it isn't. Atemi is only one element of many that are important to quality Aiki waza.

Maybe this thread will be of help - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5313 .

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

ikkitosennomusha
08-11-2005, 09:54 PM
This may have already been mentioned but everything Aiki is a strength and the weakness is not in the art but perhaps in the aikidoka or the methodology of the sensei. To be clear, I am not calling anyone out here, its just a mere statistic and observation.

I have read Shihan and O-sensei talking about the very nature of training. In their discussion they convey the importance of intent. To outline this further, they are specifically talking about uke's intent to attack. It must be real and intense to simulate real life. It is possible to have this sort of enviroment and still maintain a controlled atmosphere because after the attack, nage is/should be in full control. Nage must match the speed and intensity of uke but after that, nage can slow it down to a safe tone and take control.

More real attacks was the one thing I strived for at a former place of training as the attacks were dorsal and sluggish. It is simply impossible to train under these conditions and learn the nature of Aikido.