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Rupert Atkinson
07-18-2005, 12:58 AM
I remember an old thread along a similar vein but can't find it.

I recently heard someone say there were more immobilisations than we have today (the number 12 was mentioned) but that they were abandoned because they were locks etc. While most schools do ikkyo to gokyo, I also learned rokyu way back when in the UK. Rokyo is Judo's waki-gatame. I also heard that ude-gatame was one of the originals (#8). I know a few more armlocks and am now wondering if they, or any others, were part of a more 'original' syllabus perhaps closer to Daito Ryu.

So, to start the list at #6:

Rokyu = waki-gatame
Nanagyo = ?
Hachigyo = ude-gatame?
Kyugyo =
More?

Feel free to add what you know, if any. Or is all this just plain wrong?

eyrie
07-18-2005, 01:18 AM
Try here:
http://aikiweb.com/techniques/

Rupert Atkinson
07-18-2005, 01:27 AM
Read them - but can't make sense out of them.

Sonja2012
07-18-2005, 01:43 AM
The only additional one I know would be ude kime osae, but I donīt know if there are other names/expressions for this technique. It is a shoulder lock/pin.

Regards,
Sonja

DustinAcuff
07-18-2005, 08:16 PM
LOL, only 12!!!??? You are joking right? To simplify a fairly large response: there are (insert random number here) immobilization techniques for every possible attack from every possible angle for every possible in uke's height, weight, build, terrain, clothing, and any other variables that come to mind.

The number of possible immobilizations are pretty close to unlimited, I know atleast 70-85% of the techniques we (my particular Daito Ryu school) are supposed to have are immobilizations/breaks.

I'm sorry if this post sounded a bit arrogant or snide, I'm just having a hard time compreheding only 12 immobilizations in Aikido coincidering where Aikido came from.

eyrie
07-20-2005, 03:06 AM
There is a reason for there being a limited number of techniques formlly taught in most aikido schools generally, because aikido is a principle-based hierarchy rather than a technical hierarchy. So the techniques in aikido are primarily "mother techniques".

If you look at the way the "formal" pins are executed (from tachi-waza to suwari-waza), there are a few more osae komi waza hidden inside the sequences. Here's a hint: see if you can find ushiro ude garami...

The other immobilizations can be found in shiho-nage (ude gatame) and its reverse in kote-gaeshi, as well as in juji-garami. These immobilizations can also be extrapolated to yubi, hiji and ashi.

What more do you need? ;)

Kevin Leavitt
07-20-2005, 01:22 PM
Well said Ted. I was going to say something similar, then I read your thread!

Do arts are typically concerned with philosophy and principle. The techniques chosen are those that the founder/instructors feel best convey and teach the DO.

Most techniques, as Ted has pointed out, are derivatives of these basic ones. Spend a few years learning the basics, then everything else should be that much easier.

SU arts on the other hand will typcially concern with the tactical application (combat application) of techniques and will therefore, focus on a multitude of things that are most efficiently used when presented certain condition.

eyrie
07-20-2005, 08:33 PM
Hi Kevin,

Don't you mean "Ignatius"? ;)

Rupert Atkinson
07-20-2005, 09:47 PM
I was just really wondering whether anyone officially taught / received instruction in Aikido in any of the 'extras'. As I said, I learned rokyo (waki-gatame), and have heard others speak of others. As for myself, I have about nine variants twisting/rolling the arm inwards like ikkyo and about eleven twisting it out like kote-gaeshi etc. That makes 20 easy to learn distinguishable arm techniques - but most came from Jujutsu, not Aikido - but they fit Aikido very well. There are more, but they are really just variations.

eyrie
07-20-2005, 10:09 PM
Nope. It was far easier (and quicker) for me to learn the variations as they came from jujitsu than to find them by accident (or wait to be taught) in aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
07-21-2005, 12:56 PM
Sorry Ignatius! yes..that is what I meant..eyes played tricks on me! They were immobilized with technique # 501

Kevin Leavitt
07-21-2005, 01:01 PM
Now that I am studying jiujitsu...We essentially learn techniques and/or attack chains to expand our breadth of options. It is an interesting way to study versus doing ikkyu over and over 100s of times. You still get to explore and experience the underlying principles, but also make mistakes and learn options.

One downside to this is that many tend to focus on too many techniques and you must be cautioned against developing or not worrying about correct form or posture.

This is why we always practice basics for about 30 mintues going slow in my dojo. Develop good posture, habits...then work on a few techniques to expand options....then roll (randori) to gain realistic speed experience.

Amir Krause
07-24-2005, 05:35 AM
LOL, only 12!!!??? You are joking right? To simplify a fairly large response: there are (insert random number here) immobilization techniques for every possible attack from every possible angle for every possible in uke's height, weight, build, terrain, clothing, and any other variables that come to mind.

The number of possible immobilizations are pretty close to unlimited, I know atleast 70-85% of the techniques we (my particular Daito Ryu school) are supposed to have are immobilizations/breaks.

I'm sorry if this post sounded a bit arrogant or snide, I'm just having a hard time compreheding only 12 immobilizations in Aikido coincidering where Aikido came from.


I think the question is:
How do you count?
What counts as a single technique?

The way my teacher learned it, Korindo Aikido is very un-organized. When we had instructors course, he tried to organize it, and came down to about 6-8 groups of around 8-10 techniques each for empty hand work that exist in the curriculum. Obviously, each technique then has multiple variations. Some people would count each variation as a different technique, others may consider some of the techniques my sensei defined as separate as the same technique. Hence, counting the number of techniques is problematic.

Amir

Kevin Leavitt
07-24-2005, 01:35 PM
I have been told by some teachers that ikkyo is the only technique. Everything else is a derivation of ikkyo. I can see where this comes from in principle.

DustinAcuff
07-24-2005, 03:55 PM
Yeah, I have heard that one could claim any number of techniques and still be fairly on the money.

Immobilizations in particular are a bit more specific and only come in four categories: elongation and compression and pain compliance and nonpain compliance. Elongation is anything where you elongate uke's spine through a raise and can be applied through the limbs or directly to the spine. Compression compresses uke's spine and once again it can be done through the limbs. Pain compliance prevents uke from resisting because resisting hurts too much, aka if you move your arm is going to break. Non pain complance is mostly a function of elongation and compression that literally just takes away uke's ability to do anything.

Everything about aiki techniques is about creating intersecting lines. I have heard that Minamoto Yoshimitsu studied the way that a spider entraps the fly in its web to create our techniques off of the concept of blending or aiki.

Rupert Atkinson
07-27-2005, 09:09 PM
I have been told by some teachers that ikkyo is the only technique. Everything else is a derivation of ikkyo. I can see where this comes from in principle.

I have heard the same, but such is the result of a lifetime of experience - it is rather a bullshido teaching approach for the average joe and usually translates to me as the teacher saying - "Listen to me, I'm really wise."

eyrie
07-27-2005, 09:57 PM
The way I see it, ikkyo is a principle (of a straight armbar) rather than a technique as such. The trick of course is finding ways of apply an armbar from various positions using various means. For me it was easier to see how the basic techniques are applied in jujitsu and extrapolate these to other ways using the same principles.

For example, the way gokyo is traditionally done and taught is kinda goofy if realistically applied. But if you look at some of the jujitsu applications of the "gooseneck", it makes a whole lot more sense. It's still "gokyo", no doubt, even though the elbow may be positioned differently, the configuration of the wrist and elbow is still the same.

Kevin Leavitt
07-28-2005, 04:35 AM
Right on the money. Ikkyo is designed to teach principles...so philsophically you can see how ikkyo would be the start of all other techniques. The statement is a principle based one.

Erick Mead
08-05-2005, 11:00 AM
Immobilizations --

Lessee ...

Isolate two contiguous joints so that each joint has only one allowable axis of rotation (i.e. --sans snapping). Then rotate the assembly inward toward your (nage's) center.

PIN!!

Possible contiguous joint combos:

wrist/elbow
elbow/shoulder
shoulder/neck
ankle/knee

(if you have never done an ankle yonkyo, you really must try it sometime!)

(=4 possible two joint combinations)


Each (or most) can be done sitting or standing (= 2)

Each (or most) can be done uchi-mawari or soto-mawari. (=2)

Disregarding the bilateral nature of the body (and acknowledging that while the the hip joint may be manipulated, it cannot be pinned short of a hogtie (surely someone is about to correct me) that leaves us:

Totalling::

4 (joint combinations) x 2 (seated/standing) x 2 (uchi/soto) =

16 theoretical potential basic pins

with the addition of the fact that some pins can be appleid with the involvement of three joints (shihonage (which is soto-mawari), sankyo (which is uchi-mawari) or even (joy, joy!) four joints (e.g. - kokyunage tanto-dori, or to give the techinique its proper English terminology -- the shoulder-across-knee-face-pushed-away-kokyu-arm-twist-ouch-ouch-ouch-drop-the-knife-thingy).

At least 4 I can think of in those categories, so that = 20-odd,

Plus a spectrum of positional variations some of them depending on the relative balance of rotation applied toward one or the other involved joint(s), or whether we are on one or two knees, or more sitting than standing, or more standing than sitting, and that

= Infinity

For what it is worth,

Cordially

Erick Mead

Randathamane
08-10-2005, 05:27 PM
Ikkio, nikkio, sankkio, yonkkio, gokkio and rokkio....

.... with millions upon countless millions of variations of each one. In aikido there is only (suposedly) 5 projections and 6 submisions- however we all know that there is more than that.

How many imobilisations?- as many as one can think of and make work. That is the only limit that a single person can have, wheras a group of martial artists may have no bounds.


:ai: :ki: :do: