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AugustV
07-17-2005, 08:08 AM
I wonder if there are any well informed Roman Catholics/Christians out there who might answer some of my questions regarding Aikido and Catholicism/Christianity. I have searched the web for articles on Christianity and Aikido and have reviewed Christian Martial Arts sites, but am looking for some deeper discussion.

I am an older Catholic--well-informed--who has been practicing at a wonderful dojo in Maine. I am looking for some intelligent discussion of the spiritual aspects of Aikido and some thoughts about ki. Thanks.

Aragorn
07-17-2005, 01:56 PM
August,
I to am Catholic, younger, and not well informed. my father is a deacon so sometimes we have discussions, but I don't get much. :( I might be able to help you though..... :crazy:
Regards,
:ai: :ki: :do:

Dan Rubin
07-17-2005, 02:01 PM
Have you read this one?

"Touching the Absolute: Aikido vs. Religion and Philosophy" by Peter Goldsbury, at
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=944

Steven
07-17-2005, 06:10 PM
It's only a problem if you make it a problem. Not that I'm saying there is a problem.

I'm Catholic and have practiced for some 23 years and counting. No issues with anyone within the church or my family.

You are most welcome to send me a private message if you'd like at aysdojo at seikeikan dot com.

CNYMike
07-17-2005, 07:38 PM
.... I am an older Catholic--well-informed--who has been practicing at a wonderful dojo in Maine .....

Where in Maine? I'm going on vacation there next month.


.... I am looking for some intelligent discussion of the spiritual aspects of Aikido and some thoughts about ki. Thanks.

John Stevens Sensei wrote a book called The Secrests of Aikido which is about the spiritual side of the art; that would be a good place to start.

guest89893
07-17-2005, 10:24 PM
I wonder if there are any well informed Roman Catholics/Christians out there who might answer some of my questions regarding Aikido and Catholicism/Christianity. I have searched the web for articles on Christianity and Aikido and have reviewed Christian Martial Arts sites, but am looking for some deeper discussion.

I am an older Catholic--well-informed--who has been practicing at a wonderful dojo in Maine. I am looking for some intelligent discussion of the spiritual aspects of Aikido and some thoughts about ki. Thanks.
August,
I am a fairly well informed Catholic (I however am not going to admit to being older). I am not any were near the caliber of Peter Goldsbury, and Dan Rubin's suggestion regarding Peter's thread is well worth reading.
You may PM me as well if you did not wish to discuss over the open boards.
Gene

Sanshouaikikai
07-17-2005, 10:34 PM
Well...I am a born again Evangelical Christian who takes my relationship with Christ Jesus my Lord and Saviour very seriously and I have also been involved with all sorts of martial arts for the last 12 years. I am very well versed in Christian theology and history as well as knowing the different philosphies and theologies of different belief systems in the world (i.e. Cults/Occult, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) Umm...as far as I'm concerned...most (not all) of the relaxation stuff and mental stuff and all have some Biblical merit. However...I wouldn't recommend getting into their so called "spiritual" aspect of it 'cause it does not pertain to true spirituality which only comes through having a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ...not doing works and being nice....but by the grace and providence of God and His sacrifice of His son Jesus to die in our place for our sins...'cause we're all scumbags without Jesus no matter how spiritual and nice you think you are. Anywho...the main point I'm trying to make is this...you can be a Christian and train in the martial arts and harness your chi/ki and what not...as long as you do not deviate from the faith and become some new age moron, you know? If you want to talk more about it and have a better discussion regarding the things you asked...my e-mail address is Irockloud@yahoo.com and my AIM s/n is fistfulofdread and my Yahoo IM s/n is Irockloud. Please...contact me if you're really serious about any of those questions and any other questions you have...I'll be more than glad to help you.

senshincenter
07-17-2005, 10:39 PM
August,

You can feel free to email me as well (see web site for email contact information). I am Catholic as well and also have a Masters degree as well as Doctorate Candidacy in the History of Religions (with an emphasis on Japanese religious culture).

david

L. Camejo
07-17-2005, 10:53 PM
I am an older Catholic--well-informed--who has been practicing at a wonderful dojo in Maine. I am looking for some intelligent discussion of the spiritual aspects of Aikido and some thoughts about ki. Thanks.
Hi August,

If you have a specfic question in mind please state it openly. Otherwise I know there are at least 2 extemely long threads in the Aikiweb archives about Aikido and Christianity and the whole question about what some Religions say about ki etc. A lot of your questions may be answered if you try out the forum search function. That sort of discussion can become very involved and heated from my experience (especially when folks start preaching from either side) so if your questions have been answered here in a prior thread it may be nice not to beat a dead horse imho.;)

If you are already well-informed on one side, then I'd suggest doing some online research related to ki and forming your own opinions.

So far for me there is absoluteley no dichotomy between my Aikido practice and being Catholic. In fact I have found each a bit helpful in understanding some concepts of the other.

Just a thought or 2.
LC:ai::ki:

aikispike
07-18-2005, 12:38 AM
Hi August,

I am Catholic, and fairly well informed.

I have no conflicts between the aikido I practice and my faith, but I know that there are places where I would not be able to practice. There are dojo where practice includes activities and meditation with a pseudo-religious bent. People in those dojo who are christian but not informed may tell you that it isn't a problem - I don't see it that way. Happy to discuss.

Spike

spinecracker
07-18-2005, 11:34 AM
For my own part, I had to examine and resolve the conflict of bowing to the shomen (kamiza) at the beginning and end of class. IMHO, there is a fine line between veneration of O sensei, and worshipping him as a kind of Buddhist diety. The Bible does state 'thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image', and I had to make sure that I would not, even unintentionally, be involved with a act, such as bowing to the shomen, that would compromise my faith. Discussing the matter with the sensei was extremely useful, and now I have no problems with training. I actually spend the minute or two at the beginning and end of class in seiza praying and thanking God. As Christians, we not only should live as sin-free at humanly possible, but also be seen to be living this way.

Mark Uttech
07-18-2005, 01:05 PM
I am a practicing catholic as well as a buddhist. As far as I feel, catholicism is only about going to Mass and sharing the peace. That makes it an excellent aikido practice off the mat.

James Davis
07-18-2005, 04:31 PM
I am also a catholic aikidoka. In our dojo, when we rei toward the shomen, we are giving thanks to O'sensei and to anyone who has ever taught us anything of value. I don't worship my sensei when I rei to him, but I am often thanking him. ;)
I see ki as simply another way of explaining physics to other aikidoka. If they extend their ki and it has the desired result of making their technique better, what's the difference?
As for the martial aspect, the catechism explains the right - and the duty - to defend yourself in pretty good detail.
Many times over I've thanked God for helping me find aikido. It changed my life for the better and I think it's something that I can teach others to help better their lives.

Sad, frustrated, imbalanced kid + aikido = pretty nice guy (at least in my case). :D

Dirk Hanss
07-18-2005, 06:05 PM
I am a practicing catholic as well as a buddhist.

Hi Mark,
I wonder how many catholic or other christian minister would accept this.
"You shall not have other gods after me!" That does not necessarily mean, that there are no other gods, but if you follow them, you cannot follow the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God.
Another issue is reinkarnation, which I (lutheran) was told is not in line with chritian believes.

Usually there is no objection against practicing buddhist methods for meditation or sharing their idea of peace or vegetarism, but most would argue, believing in the truth of one religion would not allow to believe the onther one seriously.

Well I do not mind. If you found for yourself to combine both, it is fine.

So may God and Buddha both bless you.

Regards Dirk

Sanshouaikikai
07-18-2005, 06:29 PM
You're right Mr. Danss....the Bible is very clear when it says, "Do you not know that friendship with the WORLD is hatred towards God?" James 4:4. Buddhism is a WORLDLY religion...you can't combine the 2 and call yourself a Christian. There are other verses in the Bible which say similar things like, "What relationship does light have with darkness?" However...as an idividual...you have the right to believe what you want...no matter how misguided it is. Plus...most (not all) Catholics don't even read the Bible anyway...some don't even go to mass! They think that just because their great grandfather's pet hamster was Catholic that they are Catholic and that they're going to Heaven for "being good." Anyway...you have any questions e-mail me. I could inform you very well.

MikeLogan
07-18-2005, 06:44 PM
Dirk, that last bit was generous of you, and generosity is a trait engendered by both christians and buddhists. While facts are unconditional, truths sometimes can be.

One person's truth can be another's trash. And not too drag politics into a brush fire in the making, but a large proportion of the roughly 52% of america which voted for our very own weapon of mass dysfunction I would reckon are of the christian persuasion.

Now I happen to be a catholic, catholic schooled, son of a CCD director and taught by doctorates of theology. I wonder how many people out there realize that heaven as understood in the higher echelons of christian theology dovetails more with ideas of eastern philosophy, more so than the average image of an eternal barbeque in one's backyard.

In other words not necessarily the loss of self and ego, but an all encompassing awareness of the universe, the divine; The self exists within both of these.

Anyway, just the monday ramblings of a catholic aikidoka fresh out of monday's practice, where at I bowed out of respect alone to Ueshiba, the same as I might raise a toast to someone I admired and respected.

logan.

(we catholics are the pagans of the christian world anyhow!)

Sanshouaikikai
07-18-2005, 09:04 PM
Not all Catholics are the pagans of the Christian world...I would like to think Episcopalians are worse. However...I have met some truly Christian Episcopalians and Catholics. You see...a true Christian is one who only cares about following the mandates of Christ and living for Christ and making a difference (by not mixing our doctrines with those of blasphemous backgrounds mind you) in this world for the glory and advancement of the Kingdom of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...not worrying about denominations such as Catholic, Methodist, Orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc. Ultimately above all...the Christian should only worry about having a true personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

guest89893
07-18-2005, 09:50 PM
Plus...most (not all) Catholics don't even read the Bible anyway...some don't even go to mass! They think that just because their great grandfather's pet hamster was Catholic that they are Catholic and that they're going to Heaven for "being good." Anyway...you have any questions e-mail me. I could inform you very well.
Luke 6-27&28&29:
"But I say to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you, pray for those who calumniate you."
From one Catholic to you," A blessing to you and I pray for you. I pray that you will live in interesting times."
Gene

Tubig
07-18-2005, 10:08 PM
I am Catholic Myself.. and I find hard to turn the other cheek when a yokomen is coming to hit me. :)

L. Camejo
07-18-2005, 11:03 PM
From one Catholic to you," A blessing to you and I pray for you. I pray that you will live in interesting times."
Lol Gene I love that statement. A blessing and a curse all in one concise sentence. Brilliant.:D

What is often interesting though is that folks who know little or just enough to be dangerous to themselves tend to be the first to create religious divisions among otherwise harmonious folks, pass judgement on others while being blind to their own failings, lay down the law (and are even faster to "quote" it) and decide who is righteous and who is not in a single thought without actually thinking. In the midst of this we have Priests, Bishops, and Popes who have no trouble bowing and being reverent (even if not actually worshipping) at Hindu and Buddhist temples and Islamic Mosques; and Lamas, Pundits and Imams who have no issue being reverent and respectful in the midst of their "Christian" brethren who may claim that their path is "not the way of God" or infer that these folks "worship the devil" or whatever.

It's like in MA when you have the Kyu and lower Dan grades infected and embattled over which art or style is better while the true masters of the diverse arts can sit and speak together in harmony since they all understand and respect each other's way and are not so insecure in their beliefs that their egos are bruised at the first sign of disagreement with what they believe.

It seems that religion becomes yet another battlefield that some misguided human beings utilize to feed their ever hungry egos and
need for self validation and gratification. Sad really.

I think if there is one way that Ueshiba's perspectives on Aikido can help those who call themselves religious is because it embraces one of the fundamental creative elements of the Universe that many religions think they propagate also - Love. When we start to get the "Club" or "Clique" mentality in religion and shun, scoff at and insult others because they do not belong to our belief system (which like all others is yet to be proven beyond all possible doubt), we become objects of division, dissension and war - the opposite of Love. But then these are the same people who are quick to tell the Peace loving Buddhist that his religion is "worldly" and as such, not of God. Imo actions speak louder than words and evil exists in all humans from Atheists to Zoroastrianists. We need to address ourselves and that need to destroy something else in order to preserve what WE think is right. I think this is a good lesson that so-called followers of Christ can learn from Ueshiba M., even though Christ did it first (maybe they missed that chapter).;)

Apologies for the rant folks.
Gambatte, Namaste, Salaam, Shalom, Peace be with you all.
LC:ai::ki:

Red Beetle
07-19-2005, 01:17 AM
Dear August Valenti,

Let me bless you with a few little citations from my favorite Confession of Faith which was written in 1643.

"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof."
(The Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 15, section 6)

Simply put, the Pope is Antichrist!


"In which respects, popish monastical vows of perpetual single life, professed poverty, and regular obedience, are so far from being degrees of higher perfection, that they are superstitious and sinful snares, in which no Christian may entangle himself."
(WCF, chptr 12, section 7)

Such popish vows lead to and encourage the now common homosexual catholic priesthood which causes so much suffering and scandal to all the little male children they molest.

Here is another classic citation from the good ol Heidelberg Catechism penned 1563:

Q. 80. What difference is there between the Lord's supper and the Popish Mass?

Answer: The Lord's supper testifies to us that we have a full pardon of all sin by the ONLY sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which he himself has once accomplished on the cross; and that we by the Holy Ghost are ingrafted into Christ, who according to his human nature is now not on earth, but in heaven at the right hand of God his Father, and will there be worshiped by us--but the mass teaches that the living and the dead have not the pardon of sins through the sufferings of Christ, unless Christ is also daily offered for them by the priests; and further, that Christ is bodily under the form of bread and wine, and therefore is to be worshiped in them; so that the mass, at bottom, is nothing else than a denial of the one sacrifice and sufferings of Jesus Christ, and an accursed idolatry.


The Roman Catholic Church-state rejects the Bible as the sole authority in all matters of religion. Catholicism rests its faith on the Pope, human traditions, and the blasphemous magisterium.

The Bible alone is the sole Axiom of the Christian faith. The Bible alone is the Word of God.

"And from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim 3:16). Note the universal indicators in the above verse. The Scripture is sufficient to perfect the Christian man. No Popes, human tradition, apostolic succession, ect is needed.

There is much mystical non-sense in Aikido.
I can see the attraction between Aikido and devout Roman Catholics.
Erasmus of Rotterdam could probably have Folly write down a few lines explaining why.
The superstition of 'Ki' parallels with many mystical powers Catholics believe they receive by praying to Mary, saints, and so on. Birds of a feather....

Thank God for Martian Luther, who nailed his 95 theses on Wittenburg castle-church October 31st, 1517! The date signifies the start of modern civilization.

Aikido, like Christendom, needs to be Reformed.

For help ending your Roman Catholic nightmare see the essays found at:
www.trinityfoundation.org

For help in understanding the logical coherent application of Judo, Jiu-jitsu and Aikido, then see:
www.kingsportjudo.com

our Aikido section is on its way!


signed
Red Beetle

Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Sola Gratie
Sola Christo
Sola Deo Gloria

Patrick O'Regan
07-19-2005, 04:40 AM
Hi August

I am also a Catholic and practice Aikido. My apologetics is okay. I find no conflict in my Aiki practice and my belief system, in fact Aikido compliments my Faith. PM me If you want to talk more.

G'day Cromwell, Someone once said that tenkan was a great way to turn the other cheek :).

I would also recommend a forum search to read previous, lengthy, discussions from a Christian perspective.

Good luck.

AugustV
07-19-2005, 05:58 AM
Thank you all for your generous replies. I wondered if any had felt a conflict between the spiritual aspects of aikido and their Christianity. I too have studied and practiced Christian mysticism (as a secular Discalced Carmelite), and have benefited from Buddhist meditation techniques. Your responses have at least shown me that there are Christians--apparently devout--who have thought about these issues seriously and are practicing Aikido. There is no doubt in my mind that O'Sensei was a great man, someone whom Christ loves/loved much, I should think.

The dualism inherent in Oriental thought is not compatible with Christianity, but certainly much of what is in Aikido is good. Now, on to ki...

AugustV
07-19-2005, 06:25 AM
Mike,

Aikido of Maine (see the website)is in Portland. We have a great group and excellent teachers. If you wish, you can e-mail me for directions. August

aikidocapecod
07-19-2005, 06:57 AM
Hello August....Aikido of Portland is a nice group of people. A very nice dojo. Hope to be there in August..(no play on words there!!! ;-)) when Tres Sensei is there.

As far as the thread...I am Catholic. Never once did I consider bowing to Shomen in any way conflicting with my Catholic beliefs. We bow to Shomen in respect of O'Sensei. We bow to each other before and after class for the same reasons. It is not a "religious" bow, rather, it is one of deep respect and thankfullness.

And if I could make an observation.....Christ I am sure feels the same way about O'Sensei as he does about everybody else. He, Christ, may be disappointed in some, but ultimately, if we are to believe all the teachings, He loves all regardless of sin or goodness....(That is just my unschooled opinion)

guest89893
07-19-2005, 07:41 AM
Lol Gene I love that statement. A blessing and a curse all in one concise sentence. Brilliant.:D
:
Thanks Larry. More importantly thank you for what you wrote. Because to me it was less a rant and more a rather clear observation.
Gene

guest89893
07-19-2005, 08:06 AM
The Roman Catholic Church-state rejects the Bible as the sole authority in all matters of religion. Catholicism rests its faith on the Pope, human traditions, and the blasphemous magisterium.

The Bible alone is the sole Axiom of the Christian faith. The Bible alone is the Word of God.


Luke 6-27&28&29:
"But I say to you who are listening: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you, pray for those who calumniate you."
Monty from this Catholic to you," A blessing to you and I pray for you. I pray that you will live in interesting times."
Gene

p.s. I wonder is there a prayer that asks for protection from trolls?

Sanshouaikikai
07-19-2005, 02:23 PM
The times are very interesting, Mr. Martinelli. I don't see how that's a curse in any way...and if it was...some Christian you are! LOL! Look...the Pope was wrong for attending mosques and hindu temples and bowing to whatever deity it was that he bowed to. That's wrong...why is it wrong? Because the Bible tell us that we shall not worship any graven images or sit in the council of sinners. Now...I have many muslim friends, one of which lives in Uzbekistan. We've been friends for about 3 years now. We talk about the differences and the few similarities between Islam and Judeo-Christian theology. Again...we're very good friends and we're both rediculously devout about what we believe in. She's still a Muslim...and I'm still and always will be a Christian. Now...we don't argue or yell at each other or insult each other...then we wouldn't be friends would we? However...I would not go to her mosque whether here in the states or over there in her country because that is wrong, understand? Now...if she ever wanted to come to my church...she's more than welcome to come...but she most likely will not...because she feels it's wrong and against her faith, understand? The answer to world peace isn't to agree with what everyone says and mix all our doctrines, traditions, and beliefs just because we're afraid of hurting other people's feelings...but rather...agreeing to disagree and still be friends that are willing to help each other out, understand? 'Cause if we were all to practice universal ecumenism...we'd have nothing to believe in or cherish that is our own...we'd all be the same, understand? So...God Bless you Mr. Martinelli and I pray that the Holy Spirit truly convicts your heart and opens your eyes to truth found in the Living Word of God and that His blessings may fall upon you and your household like a monsoon in Asia!

Steven
07-19-2005, 02:30 PM
Aren't Monsoons a force of nature capable to taking innocent lives? Hmmm ... A blessing and a curse at the same time?!?

Sanshouaikikai
07-19-2005, 02:36 PM
Mr. Collier! Your knowledge of true Christianity and apologetics is great...but...not all Catholics are screwed up...James Caviezel...the actor who acted as Jesus in the "Passion of the Christ" is a Catholic who has much knowledge of the scriptures and is truly driven by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Anywho...again...I commend you on your knowledge and I pray blessings upon you!

Sanshouaikikai
07-19-2005, 02:38 PM
No...a curse it is not, Mr. Miranda...a monsoon brings heavy rains and I pray that the blessings that fall upon Mr. Martinelli be like a heavy rainfall, understand? That's a good thing.

Steven
07-19-2005, 02:47 PM
No...a curse it is not, Mr. Miranda...a monsoon brings heavy rains and I pray that the blessings that fall upon Mr. Martinelli be like a heavy rainfall, understand? That's a good thing.

Heavy rains can also cause major flooding and death, understand? That's a bad thing.

BTW: personal attacks on fellow members on this forum are prohibited. Please remember the forum rules.

"Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forum members with respect"

That's both the Christian and Aiki thing to do .. and the rules.

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2005, 03:12 PM
p.s. I wonder is there a prayer that asks for protection from trolls?

I don't think so, but there are some rather interesting curses that could apply...like:

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits and other hairy parts...

Kindly provided by Ron's brother during our teen years...

RT :)

aikigirl10
07-19-2005, 04:52 PM
I happen to be Catholic also. Surprising how many Catholics there are here.

Anyway i'm 15 years old and have been catholic my whole life , alot of my family is catholic. To me the important thing is not to mix religion with martial arts. I think aikido is based upon good morals but i dont think that should mean it should be considered a religion. Catholicism (or any christian reiligion for that matter) of course frowns upon violence as a means of hurting another person, but aikido is not meant for hurting others. It is actually the opposite , it is meant for defending yourself WITHOUT hurting others.

This is why i think its fine to be doing martial arts and still be religious. Theres nothing wrong with it as long as you are doing it for the right reasons.

-paige

Sanshouaikikai
07-19-2005, 05:46 PM
Heavy rains can also cause major flooding and death, understand? That's a bad thing.

BTW: personal attacks on fellow members on this forum are prohibited. Please remember the forum rules.

"Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forum members with respect"

That's both the Christian and Aiki thing to do .. and the rules.


Yes...but I didn't mean it as a curse (because curses are from satan, moron). If you tell someone that you want blessings to fall on them like a heavy rain like what a monsoon can bring, you're telling them that you want many blessings to fall on them. Maybe I shouldn't have used that analogy 'cause you're a moron, Mr. Miranda and have the IQ of a 2 year old. No offense. Ciao!

guest89893
07-19-2005, 05:54 PM
So...God Bless you Mr. Martinelli and I pray that the Holy Spirit truly convicts your heart and opens your eyes to truth found in the Living Word of God and that His blessings may fall upon you and your household like a monsoon in Asia!

Please call me Gene. The students in my classroom call me Mr. Martinelli. I thank you for the offering of the blessing. What I quoted from the Bible was as much a reminder to you as it was to myself. The reason the Pope could walk in and prayer at a Mosque, was it's location and connection to Christ. The reason the Pope could walk up and pray at the Temple wall because it was the Temple that Jesus had entered. It was a way to acknowledge both the differences and the opportunity to show we can all live in peace.
Mr. Rodriquez I wish you peace. May the Love of God fill thy heart , may the Holy Spirit bath you in the light of God's Wisdom, and may the Way of Jesus be your path. Amen

P.S. Ron my brother had the same curse too. ;)
Steven interesting twist with the water, that is the heart of this isn't it.

Sanshouaikikai
07-19-2005, 05:58 PM
Thanks, Gene!

Sanshouaikikai
07-19-2005, 07:09 PM
By the way...my apologies to Mr. Miranda for the name calling...I got a little out of hand and totally broke the rules by disrespecting you. You are right about the rules there...I just got a little frustrated by someone implying that I'm trying to bring harm upon another person by "cursing" them...I just wouldn't do such a thing.

aikigirl10
07-19-2005, 08:11 PM
Alan, you speak of how wrong it was for the Pope to sin.

We are all sinners. Have you never sinned?

Steven
07-19-2005, 08:38 PM
By the way...my apologies to Mr. Miranda for the name calling...I got a little out of hand and totally broke the rules by disrespecting you. You are right about the rules there...I just got a little frustrated by someone implying that I'm trying to bring harm upon another person by "cursing" them...I just wouldn't do such a thing.

First, the name is Steven, not Mr. Miranda. Among brothers in faith and budo, formality such as this is not needed. Second, your apology to me is not needed, but accepted.

... and for the record, I'm well aware of your intentions in your blessings. I guess now you know a little bit about how it feels to be accused of being all these horrible things, just because one is Catholic. You see, in the eyes of many, not you, I'm already damned to hell because I'm catholic. Great, I'll see you there. (not you, but those that do the damning) I'm judged on that fact alone. Hell, all my life I've been judged on the fact that not only was I Catholic, I am a Puerto Rican and from New York. Most people where I grew up only new about PR's from West Side Story. So by default, we were all just a bunch of gang bangers looking for trouble. The neighborhood went to hell when the Catholic PR's from New York moved in.

The lesson here is, people should not judge people because of their religion, as so many do. How unAikido and unChristian like is that. Yet these same people claim to be Christians. Well at least in word. Funny how someone can claim to be Christian and in the same breath, damn someone and pass judgment on others because of what they believe is wrong. These people are great at quoting scripture. Problem is, they don't practice what they preach. I wonder at times if these people can walk on water and/or if I nailed them to a tree, or street post, they would reappear three days later after their death. At the rate they pass judgement, one would think they were left in charge.

This thread was not about this religion versus that religion. It wasn't about whether what the Pope did was right or wrong, based on whatever criteria is used. It was about what Catholics thought about practicing Aikido and about incorporating some the KI teachings. Or is that KEY teachings. I always get that mixed up. :D However, that's not the path this thread took.

I can go on for days telling everyone about what I think of this religion versus that one over there. But why bother. In the end, it's your personal relationship with God or whoever you want to worship that matters. I try to live my faith everyday, in everything I do and say, but God knows, I'm not perfect, nor will I ever claim to be. When my day of judgment comes, it's not going to matter what anyone here on this forum thinks of me. I'll have my day and when that day comes, my maker and I will sit and talk and he .. or she .. will decide my fate. Not anyone here.

In my dojo, we have all walks of faith and non-faith. We all co-exist in perfect harmony because we respect each other as individuals, as I do folks on this forum. So you're welcome to my dojo any time, as long as you leave your ego's an opinions out side the dojo and come to practice and fellowship.

Now if anyone takes this post as an attack on them, get a grip. No offense is intended, nor am I speaking of any one individual or persons. I'm attempting to speak in general terms.

If you're still offended, well, I can't help you. You'll just have to deal with it.

With that, I'm done. Flame away all you'd like. As far as I'm concerned, no harm, no foul! Life is too short to let such matters rule your life and thoughts. Like I said earlier, "It's only a problem if you want it to be."

Peace to all ...

L. Camejo
07-19-2005, 10:27 PM
Excellent post Steven.

Happy training.
LC:ai::ki:

aikigirl10
07-19-2005, 10:42 PM
Steven .... I Love You. I know EXACTLY what you mean. You just said exactly what i've been trying to tell 'those who damn' for my entire life. I could not have put it any better myself. Its like you read my mind.

If you ever need anyone to talk to about your religion or faith , im right here.

-Paige

aikigirl10
07-19-2005, 10:54 PM
. Plus...most (not all) Catholics don't even read the Bible anyway...some don't even go to mass! They think that just because their great grandfather's pet hamster was Catholic that they are Catholic and that they're going to Heaven for "being good." Anyway...you have any questions e-mail me. I could inform you very well.


Alan, you accuse Most Catholics of never reading the Bible and never going to mass. You speak as if only Catholics are guilty of this. I happen to know plenty (plenty is an understatement) of Protestants who guilty of this as well. I not saying that what u said was wrong , but dont just target Catholics when others are guilty as well .

Red Beetle
07-20-2005, 12:19 AM
"If you and I are so stupid as not to be able to understand the Bible, but need priests, bishops, and popes to tell us what it means, are we not also too stupid to understand what the priests say? If we cannot understand the First Epistle of Peter--and the Romanists claim that Peter was the first pope--how can we understand contemporary papal letters? Indeed, a reading of the papal encyclicals may convince us that it is easier to understand Peter and Paul."
(What Do Presbyterians Believe?, Gordon H. Clark, page 23, Trinity Foundation)
www.trinityfoundation.org

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Patrick O'Regan
07-20-2005, 06:02 AM
Gene wrote:

I wonder is there a prayer that asks for protection from trolls?


Hi Gene, if there was one it would be a silent prayer...if you get my meaning ;) .

Love your neighbour.

cheers

guest89893
07-20-2005, 07:43 AM
[QUOTE=Monty Collier(What Do Presbyterians Believe?, Gordon H. Clark, page 23, Trinity Foundation)
www.trinityfoundation.org
You may not have noticed Monty but, you have your torch and your pitchfork and your pointing at us an accusing. But your standing here among us alone Monty. The villagers are not coming.
Alan has shown himself to be a Christian, as has Larry, Steven, and Paige, as well as others on this thread. But you Monty have tried only to sow Chaos , trying to turn brother from brother. Hiding cleverly behind articles from several different religious sources- Presbyterians, Lutheran - for the purpose of only causing hate. It is clear what you are, Monty. We do not label you, Monty, you marked yourself and shown us who really is the Beast.

Peace to all,
Gene

p.s. Your right Paddy, it is a silent prayer in'it ;) :)
Steven, Nicely written, nicely done. Thank you.

aikidocapecod
07-20-2005, 08:59 AM
Do you not find it strange
Is it not very odd
There is so much destruction
In the name of God

Does it really matter
Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Jew
Would He have put us here
If only He knew

We kill for justice
For peace we fight
So much wrong done
To make things right

And here we sit typing
All friends in Aiki
And still there is discord
How stupid are we

The Path of Harmony
We study each day
It seems that even we
Have lost our way

If O'Sensei could only see us now...............

aikigirl10
07-20-2005, 10:13 AM
Very good Larry. Did you write that?

aikidocapecod
07-20-2005, 10:19 AM
yes...it came to me as I was reading the posts.....

akiy
07-20-2005, 10:26 AM
Hi folks,

Let's try to stick to the original subject of this thread which is in regards to aikido and Catholicism/Christianity, especially in regards to "the spiritual aspects of Aikido and some thoughts about ki." If you wish to discuss the relative and comparative merits or lack thereof of certain religions, please take that discussion to the Open Discussions forum. Lastly, please do remember the first Forum Rule of AikiWeb is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forum members with respect."

There are also other threads on this topic that may interest those participating in this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7870
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3696

Thanks,

-- Jun

spinecracker
07-20-2005, 11:59 AM
And if I could make an observation.....Christ I am sure feels the same way about O'Sensei as he does about everybody else. He, Christ, may be disappointed in some, but ultimately, if we are to believe all the teachings, He loves all regardless of sin or goodness....(That is just my unschooled opinion)

Yes, I would agree that Jesus Christ does love all of us, regardless of sin or goodness - but that ain't gonna get you into heaven. Repentance of sin and accepting Christ as your Lord and Saviour leads to forgiveness of our sins and redemption to everlasting life - this is through the grace of God only, and is not negotiable, and is definitely not salvation by works (good works are the outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit working in your life, and are a gift by the Grace of God only).

This is not my interpretation of what is said in the Bible - this is exactly what is said in the Bible. Now, if I were to get into a debate about the different translations of the Bible (Alexandrian texts versus Byzantine texts, Westcott and Hort, the blasphemies of the NIV and other versions, copyrighting the corrupted Gospels, apostacy in the modern Church, etc), then I wouldn't have time to train in Aikido! (or eat, sleep and work for that matter).

now time to practice my irimi and tenkan while people throw corrupt bibles at me :D :D :D

spinecracker
07-20-2005, 12:51 PM
Hi Mark,
I wonder how many catholic or other christian minister would accept this.
"You shall not have other gods after me!" That does not necessarily mean, that there are no other gods, but if you follow them, you cannot follow the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God.
Another issue is reinkarnation, which I (lutheran) was told is not in line with chritian believes.


Errrr.....actually, the bible is specific about God (Yahweh, Jehovah, etc) being the only God. " Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" Exodus 20:3,4. Exodus 20:5 begins " Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them....". Psalm 86:10 states "For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone". Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord". Revelation 1:8 says "I (God) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end....."
I could go on, but you get the idea.

When other gods are mentioned in the Bible, they refer to either pagan gods (gods created by man that man tries to control - examples such as the creation of the golden calf after the Israelites were delivered from the Egyptians, and the pagan images stolen by Rachel from her father Laban), or Satan and his fallen angels. Satan is referred to as the "god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4, (but this is not indicating that Satan has any authority over the Earth).

What the bible is saying, IMHO, is that following any god other than God is following pagan idols or Satan (Satan being behind many other, if not all other, religions). Serving two masters is explicitly not allowed.

Reincarnation is against biblical teachings, the only things that might even loosely fit the definition of "reincarnation", as I see them, are being born again as a Christian, being made dead to the flesh and born in the Spirit, the raising of the dead as miraculous acts by Christ, Christ's own resurrection 3 days after dying on the cross, and the resurrection of the dead that will occur at Christ's second coming.

As for the God of the Jews and Christians being the same God as the god of Islam, this is not so, and is being discussed in another thread (started by me).

csinca
07-20-2005, 01:15 PM
I am Catholic Myself.. and I find hard to turn the other cheek when a yokomen is coming to hit me. :)

Try changing your hanmi!

;)
Chris

guest89893
07-20-2005, 01:24 PM
As for the God of the Jews and Christians being the same God as the god of Islam, this is not so, and is being discussed in another thread (started by me).
Well that's nice Robert, But I think we are going to take Jun's advice and return this thread to it's main topic. Not that we don't appreciate good Christian missionary work. But since, you yourself stated you have already started a thread on who gets to call God, God. So instead of reposting on this thread we can just go read yours. Thank you for your effort. I imagine that thread is doing a wonderful job in bridging the differences among the Children of the Word.
Be at peace,
Gene

guest89893
07-20-2005, 01:26 PM
Try changing your hanmi!

;)
Chris

Great one Chris! :D

guest89893
07-20-2005, 01:46 PM
I too have studied and practiced Christian mysticism (as a secular Discalced Carmelite), and have benefited from Buddhist meditation techniques...
August, I can't believe I glossed past the fact you were a Secular Discalced Carmelite, perhaps we should have been asking you.
Taken from their website:
In addition to the Second Order, Blessed John Soreth also began the Third Order of Carmel, now known as Secular Carmelites, and wrote their first Rule. The Secular Order's profession of the vows of obedience and chastity, according to one's state of life, is a unique factor which distinguishes its members from all other secular groups affiliated with Monastic Orders. The practice of these vows has endured through the centuries even to the present. In practically every place where there is a Carmelite Monastery, and in many places where there are none, men and women in the world, attracted by this spirituality of total devotedness to God, form Communities of Secular Carmelites.

Repeating the last phrase:
attracted by this spirituality of total devotedness to God, form Communities of Secular Carmelites. not going to write out the first rule but this line pretty much gives a broad view also from their website:
pledge allegiance to Jesus Christ... Carmelite Rule
So in researching Ki/Chi you are going to find a wide variety explanations - for me since it is in all things & all things come from God, it is not an issue. When you drive a car an negotiate it through traffic your using your Ki, so to when you laugh, anyways I am now more interested in your take about it August.

spinecracker
07-20-2005, 06:13 PM
Gene, just giving answer to dirk Hanss' post and trying to get this thread back on the main topic too. Posts regarding religion tend to go off in way too many directions, but discussion and rational argument is always good for inproving one's knowledge :D

PS. I'm not a Christian missionary - I'm allergic to dangerous situations and persecution - it brings me out in a rash. :D :D

guest89893
07-20-2005, 06:49 PM
PS. I'm not a Christian missionary - I'm allergic to dangerous situations and persecution - it brings me out in a rash. :D :D

funny :D

Yo-Jimbo
07-20-2005, 09:40 PM
Hi everyone, my name is James Chye, and I'm a Catholic. They say the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Well, my problem is that I'm a confirmed Catholic and a single male scientist. I guess it really isn't a problem that the right Catholic/Non-Catholic girl couldn't solve. Special thanks goes out to all those who have or are willing to try.

I've been aikidojin and physicist for 14 years now and wish it had been more somehow. I'm not an aikidoka or PhD, but maybe some day I'll take it seriously enough that people will be willing to pay to learn aikido or physics from me (I'm writing my thesis right now). All kidding aside, I can't say that any of these aspects of my life have treated me badly.

So there were questions about being both Catholic and Aikidoka. I'd like to think that I am a scholar. I've studied. In studying I've learned that man is mortal. More astonishingly, I've learned that man is fallible. It is interesting to note that I must assume that woman is no different from man, except of course where she is different.

I would love to discuss or take questions on interactions between Catholicism and aikido. My best advise is much like my wit, short. I suggest you skip to my sig.

If you don't understand it or are still concerned as to whether God/Jesus/The Pope/The Bible/Scripture/Your Priest/Your Mate/Yourself/I feel about you using your Ki/Soul/Breath/Hands/Feet/Head/Brain/Ego/Experience/Words/Holy Spirit in aikido, just remember who goes to bed with you at night and what parts of you can be hidden from scrutiny.

Some things to ponder when considering aikido and Catholicism:
Why are you asking the question?
What would you like the answer to be? Why?
If what you are doing is right/wrong, why aren't you sure it is right/wrong?
What is the expected effect of Confession (formal or informal) of your dealings in aikido? Why is that expected?
Can a pure/impure and/or good/evil thing be turned by the action of man? Why or why not?
If someone doesn't believe you have a soul or ki, how does that change your ability to use them?
If you don't have a soul or ki, how does that change your ability to act as if you do?
Is aikido more effective on Catholics? Catholicism on aikidoka? Why?
Is the danger, in trusting someone else to define the heretical for you, that they could be wrong?
Is the danger, in trusting oneself to define the heretical, that you could be wrong and be labeled a heretic (or be right and be a heretic, until perhaps many years later when not believing your authority is itself heresy)?
Why ask why?
Why ask anything?
What makes you think that there is an answer to a particular question?

August, if you would like to include me in a serious discussion with other Catholic aikidoka, here or offline, I would be honored (and promise to play nicer than I did here thus far, at least, as long as I am able). At the same time, I kind of hope that you stopped looking at this thread days ago. Not just for my own sake...

Red Beetle
07-20-2005, 10:07 PM
Roman Catholicism :yuck:

Rather study Judo

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

aikispike
07-21-2005, 01:08 AM
Sola Scripture :yuck:
Pig headed Protestants :yuck:

1 Timothy 3:14-15
Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth

In case you would like an interpretation: the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. not the bible... how do i know this? the bible says it.

Michael Kimeda

ryujin
07-21-2005, 01:47 AM
Speaking as a non-christian, I can honestly say that there is no reason what so ever that practicing aikido does not mean you also have to follow the spirituality that it is often bundled with. Ki, and this is my opinion, is nothing more than proper body mechanics and physics. There is no mystical magical mumbo jumbo about it unless you want there to be.

AugustV
07-21-2005, 06:42 AM
James,

Now we're talking! Thanks for your lengthy and thoughtful reply. I have no cumpunctions about practicing aikido, studying Taoist or Buddhists scripture, or the like. I wondered how others, who share my faith, felt about aikido. I have read marvelous books about the spirituality of aikido and the nature of ki (see particularly Gleason Sensei's book on the spiritual roots of aikido). Without sounding too much like a dilittante, I have a deep interest in physics and mathematics so your take on ki as a Catholic physicist would be MOST welcome.

I would like this thread to elevate the discussion among Christians practicing aikido and avoid some of the doctrinal squabbling (it is impossible to eliminate all of it; even the apostles did not always agree) that foolishly divides us. Surely our love of Christ and aikido unites us.

August :straightf

Hi everyone, my name is James Chye, and I'm a Catholic. They say the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Well, my problem is that I'm a confirmed Catholic and a single male scientist. I guess it really isn't a problem that the right Catholic/Non-Catholic girl couldn't solve. Special thanks goes out to all those who have or are willing to try.

I've been aikidojin and physicist for 14 years now and wish it had been more somehow. I'm not an aikidoka or PhD, but maybe some day I'll take it seriously enough that people will be willing to pay to learn aikido or physics from me (I'm writing my thesis right now). All kidding aside, I can't say that any of these aspects of my life have treated me badly.

So there were questions about being both Catholic and Aikidoka. I'd like to think that I am a scholar. I've studied. In studying I've learned that man is mortal. More astonishingly, I've learned that man is fallible. It is interesting to note that I must assume that woman is no different from man, except of course where she is different.

I would love to discuss or take questions on interactions between Catholicism and aikido. My best advise is much like my wit, short. I suggest you skip to my sig.

If you don't understand it or are still concerned as to whether God/Jesus/The Pope/The Bible/Scripture/Your Priest/Your Mate/Yourself/I feel about you using your Ki/Soul/Breath/Hands/Feet/Head/Brain/Ego/Experience/Words/Holy Spirit in aikido, just remember who goes to bed with you at night and what parts of you can be hidden from scrutiny.

Some things to ponder when considering aikido and Catholicism:
Why are you asking the question?
What would you like the answer to be? Why?
If what you are doing is right/wrong, why aren't you sure it is right/wrong?
What is the expected effect of Confession (formal or informal) of your dealings in aikido? Why is that expected?
Can a pure/impure and/or good/evil thing be turned by the action of man? Why or why not?
If someone doesn't believe you have a soul or ki, how does that change your ability to use them?
If you don't have a soul or ki, how does that change your ability to act as if you do?
Is aikido more effective on Catholics? Catholicism on aikidoka? Why?
Is the danger, in trusting someone else to define the heretical for you, that they could be wrong?
Is the danger, in trusting oneself to define the heretical, that you could be wrong and be labeled a heretic (or be right and be a heretic, until perhaps many years later when not believing your authority is itself heresy)?
Why ask why?
Why ask anything?
What makes you think that there is an answer to a particular question?

August, if you would like to include me in a serious discussion with other Catholic aikidoka, here or offline, I would be honored (and promise to play nicer than I did here thus far, at least, as long as I am able). At the same time, I kind of hope that you stopped looking at this thread days ago. Not just for my own sake...

guest89893
07-21-2005, 07:01 AM
I would love to discuss or take questions on interactions between Catholicism and aikido. My best advise is much like my wit, short. I suggest you skip to my sig.
...

James is that because unlike the majority of your post your signature at least is not obtuse? ;) :)
Okay sorry joking aside.
Curious what you and others think about this thought:
The elegance that Bertrand Russell and Einstein saw in this mathematical universe, if you were to write a formula/mathematical statement using KI as the symbol for that elegance in the formula/mathematical statement might this cause a paradigm shift in perspective to both the definition of KI/elegance and the meaning of KI/elegance?
Or am I just babbling in written form because I haven't had any coffee yet?
Cheers,
Gene

Yo-Jimbo
07-21-2005, 09:08 AM
James is that because unlike the majority of your post your signature at least is not obtuse? ;) :)

Oh yeah! Well, ah...

Okay sorry joking aside.

No, please continue. I may even develop a come back. I did it. I did it. See that is the value of practice.

Curious what you and others think about this thought:
The elegance that Bertrand Russell and Einstein saw in this mathematical universe, if you were to write a formula/mathematical statement using KI as the symbol for that elegance in the formula/mathematical statement might this cause a paradigm shift in perspective to both the definition of KI/elegance and the meaning of KI/elegance?

As a parameter that measures the aesthetic elegance of the equation or the aesthetic elegance of the system/state that the equation describes?

You might be on to something, if the definition could be quantified. I'm not sure that ki always manifests itself in an elegant way, but sensei has always mentioned it as usefulness. Elegance and usefulness are highly correlated in aikido, but are not always causally linked in a martial setting. For me (being a non-native speaker of Japanese), ki, at least in the context of aikido, is focuses the intension made manifest through the body. I could hyperventilate and stumble back or I could exhale and surge forward. I know which of these has better ki in general, but there might be rare times when the first is appropriate and the second is not. My experience tells me which to use.

It seems to me that if your KI parameter is a measure of elegance and usefulness (martially), then it is only a matter of time before robots have it in spades (less than 200 years from now almost certainly).

I agree that some equations in physics have some intense KI. After all, good jazz and blues can have lots of soul.

I think you can/do put your soul into everything that you do. The more of your soul that is invested, the more it shows. Whether into music, text, aikido, children, friendships or comedy, there is the part of each act that effects the universe forever. Will I float about as a shadow after death? I doubt it. Will this text exist as magnetic domains on some drive and in the minds and subsequent actions of those who read it and those who interact with them? Indubitably. Neither will I or my keyboard be quite the same from this moment on.

Or am I just babbling in written form because I haven't had any coffee yet?
Cheers,
Gene
If you thought to ask the question...

guest89893
07-21-2005, 09:44 AM
As a parameter that measures the aesthetic elegance of the equation or the aesthetic elegance of the system/state that the equation describes?

You might be on to something, if the definition could be quantified. I'm not sure that ki always manifests itself in an elegant way, but sensei has always mentioned it as usefulness. Elegance and usefulness are highly correlated in aikido, but are not always causally linked in a martial setting. For me (being a non-native speaker of Japanese), ki, at least in the context of aikido, is focuses the intension made manifest through the body. I could hyperventilate and stumble back or I could exhale and surge forward. I know which of these has better ki in general, but there might be rare times when the first is appropriate and the second is not. My experience tells me which to use.

It seems to me that if your KI parameter is a measure of elegance and usefulness (martially), then it is only a matter of time before robots have it in spades (less than 200 years from now almost certainly).

I agree that some equations in physics have some intense KI. After all, good jazz and blues can have lots of soul.

I think you can/do put your soul into everything that you do. The more of your soul that is invested, the more it shows. Whether into music, text, aikido, children, friendships or comedy, there is the part of each act that effects the universe forever. Will I float about as a shadow after death? I doubt it. Will this text exist as magnetic domains on some drive and in the minds and subsequent actions of those who read it and those who interact with them? Indubitably. Neither will I or my keyboard be quite the same from this moment on.

If you thought to ask the question...
I was in fact thinking more along the line 'the aesthetic elegance of the system/state that the equation describes." But without doubt in music when ad libbing with a group of musicians the synchronize-ty that occurs unspoken is an incredible blending and the outpouring is quite often elegant. Will text remain somewhere through time? Matters not. Will I do something that someone else sees as a positive thing in their life and they in turn to something positive in the same way? That is what I would rather see rippling across the universe forever. Thank you for your thoughts James, and yes you are right if "you thought to ask the question..."
Cheers,
Gene

spinecracker
07-21-2005, 11:28 AM
Sola Scripture :yuck:
Pig headed Protestants :yuck:

1 Timothy 3:14-15
Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth

In case you would like an interpretation: the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. not the bible... how do i know this? the bible says it.

Michael Kimeda

Pig headed Protestants? So much for respecting the beliefs of others :freaky:

As for this quote from 1 Timothy, I have had a chance to research a little bit. As I have no desire to turn this thread into a bickering session, I would be grateful to discuss this via private messages.

Yo-Jimbo
07-21-2005, 11:52 AM
James,
Now we're talking! Thanks for your lengthy and thoughtful reply. I have no compunctions about practicing aikido, studying Taoist or Buddhists scripture, or the like. I wondered how others, who share my faith, felt about aikido. I have read marvelous books about the spirituality of aikido and the nature of ki (see particularly Gleason Sensei's book on the spiritual roots of aikido). Without sounding too much like a dilettante, I have a deep interest in physics and mathematics so your take on ki as a Catholic physicist would be MOST welcome.
If only I were a Cardinal and a Shihan, I would rule this thread!
I discuss this sort of thing with my sempai/sensei Mark all the time (he is a Catholic psychologist) here at our local dojo. Aikido is nicely integrated into both of our personal faiths. Whether it is viewed as transforming id into superego, or the practice of being a quality human being on the road to self actualization, Jesus seemed to wise to have a problem with it (and I wouldn't be afraid to set him straight if he did). To me, one of the benefits of being Catholic is the option of acting out of respect for creation (note that I'm not a creationist or even a true intelligent designer), not just fear of reprisal. So the question becomes, how to act. How do I love my neighbor when my neighbor is swinging a broken bottle at my face? How do I love my wife when she is armed with a carving knife? It might be time to talk about aiki.
I've suggested before (I'm not claiming to be the first) that ki doesn't need to exist as anything other that a physical mnemonic to work. One might say that there are plenty of things that can't be seen, but are still agreed to exist. If ki can be "felt", then it should be quantifiable and its use repeatable and measurable. I don't know how to do that and I've never heard of someone with a metric to do so (as a physicist, I'm always open to being proved wrong though). What I do know from experience is that martial action that is consistent with the concept of ki usage is more effective.
For example, if I tell an archer to think of a tiny rubber band attaching the tip of the arrow to the spot or ki flowing out of the tip and into the target, that sounds like a useful mnemonic. If I tell the archer to think of the arrow as a dead duck weighted by a heavy brick and the bull's eye as a tiny port hole on a distant ship out on ruff seas, I doubt it would be as instinctively helpful.
Thus my views about a person's soul. I don't know of a way to prove there physically is such a thing, but that doesn't mean acting consistent with the concept of having one isn't useful in quickly explaining decision making that is consistent with a lawful good social order.
I'm much more evangelical about aikido (and physics) than I am about Christianity. Perhaps it is because of the narrower scope that I can have more confidence in the benefits. Perhaps it is because I like newer good ideas over older good ideas. Beautiful things often tarnish with time. I do like that Catholicism centers on actions ultimately speaking louder than intentions or beliefs.
So if aikido makes someone healthier, happier or safer. Those are things that will ripple outward through society.

I would like this thread to elevate the discussion among Christians practicing aikido and avoid some of the doctrinal squabbling (it is impossible to eliminate all of it; even the apostles did not always agree) that foolishly divides us. Surely our love of Christ and aikido unites us.
August :straightf
I would like to think so. Humans are a bit resistant (sometimes rightly so) to a "universal" anything. Christianity has broken up. Aikido is broken up. Islam and Judaism are broken up. Everyone thinks that they have the answers. I hope it continues to sort itself out. In the interim, come not between a man an his jealous love for his god.

August, do you have any Valenti relatives in Ishpeming, MI? I sometimes train with a Mark Valenti (different from the earlier mentioned Mark C-O).

Does anyone else find it funny that I called for C.A.L.'s to step forward 1st and guess who volunteered? Good old R.B., doesn't qualify on any account. I guess I wasn't taken seriously. Shouldn't have been a surprised. I don't even take me seriously, or my own advise it seems.

Peace in, not a word to your mother,

Yo-Jimbo
07-21-2005, 01:10 PM
Pig headed Protestants? So much for respecting the beliefs of others :freaky:
Robert, I am also disappointed, both in the unnecessary, unfair over-generalization and in the lack of wisdom in ever insulting someone with the nickname like "spinecracker", "backbreaker", or even "chiropractor". ;)

In case you would like an interpretation: the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. not the bible... how do i know this? the bible says it.

Michael, I appreciate a good biblical paradox more than the next person, but in this case logic isn't like tenkan. Spinning us in circles won't make us fall down. :D

I'm suddenly reminded of katsu jinken and the execution of an innocent that ransoms the guilty. Is it the past or the future I see?

Now for the sensitivity training. How does the other guy feel about my/your comments? Which of you deserves to be the most angered? Which of you desires to be angered? What is the aikido/Christian response?

Here I'm preaching all the time and I only ask rhetorical questions. I have a true question or three for all you Catholic aikidojin. Is it wrong to wear my hakama to mass?

Is it wrong to practice shihonage in my mind during the "sign of peace"?

Since a sin in the mind is just as dire as the act, if I contemplate kicking kohai's butt during practice, should I confess it to my priest?

Yep, I'm going straight to purgatory.

Wait, does anyone know any priests, bishops or cardinals that study aikido?
Our local priest trained for a little while, not long enough to be any kind of authority, but if I think of it I'll ask him his impressions.

I'd also like some sit down time with the Pope at some point. I may have to wait on that though.

L. Camejo
07-21-2005, 04:53 PM
Is it wrong to practice shihonage in my mind during the "sign of peace"?
Lol.:) Actually I get ideas for a lot of Oyo Waza (Applicatioin technique) for Aikido while at Mass for some reason.

It's not like I'm thinking about it, the waza just pops into my head in the midst of a hymn or something. Maybe it's Divine Inspiration.;)

LC:ai::ki:

spinecracker
07-21-2005, 05:51 PM
Robert, I am also disappointed, both in the unnecessary, unfair over-generalization and in the lack of wisdom in ever insulting someone with the nickname like "spinecracker", "backbreaker", or even "chiropractor". ;)


Well, "spinecracker" was better than some I could have come up with :D "b#llbuster" didn't quite fit the bill. Could have been worse - I could have been a proctologist :eek: Not sure what this has to do with religion, though...... :D

AugustV
07-21-2005, 07:06 PM
To all,

Again, I appreciate your thoughts and discussion. I love my Jewish, "Protestant," Buddhist, Hindi, Muslim brothers, and all who seek the Truth with sincere hearts (and even those who don't). How many of us have inherited our faiths? We are all but accidents of our birth.

Unless I can practice apologetics in a civil environment, I eschew these discussions. It does none of us good to insult another. Rather, we should learn from Osensei about how to work through differences. Can anyone imagine the good that might have come from the Pope and Luther practicing irimi tenkan? The Lionhearted and Saladin? Mao Zedong and the Dalai Lama? (Oh come to think of it, the Dalai Lama got it right; he saw Mao as his teacher--of patience!) So, let us be civil.

I am gratified to learn that many Catholic Christians practice aikido. I have read other threads, less specific, that indicate that aikido helps us to become better in our faiths; that has been my experience, although I have not been practicing for very long.

This has all been helpful.

Thanks, August :)

wxyzabc
07-21-2005, 10:00 PM
"Errrr.....actually, the bible is specific about God (Yahweh, Jehovah, etc) being the only God. " Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" Exodus 20:3,4. Exodus 20:5 begins " Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them....". Psalm 86:10 states "For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone". Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord". Revelation 1:8 says "I (God) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end....."

Hey thats interesting...first time I've read anything from the bible though I am supposed to be catholic. But you know when I read this it sounds to me that we are being told that we are supposed to be Gods...no? especially the bit "for thou art great, and doest wondrous things..thou art God alone"...is that talking about us?
:confused:

mmm...anyway I'm certainly not religious...I always liked the quote by Henry David Thorea "talk of heaven..ye disgrace earth"...

aikispike
07-21-2005, 10:45 PM
Pig headed Protestants? So much for respecting the beliefs of others :freaky:


Sorry all. My comment about Protestants was only meant to be directed to our friend the Red Beetle, certainly it was not meant to be a blanket statement. I have no problem with Protestants in general; only the ones who tell my I am damned from the get go. In fact I think that Catholics can learn much from Protestants as it seems they read the Bible more, are more willing to defend their faith, and more willing to evangelize.

To bring this back to a Catholic topic... I don't think any Catholic Aikidoka have problem with bowing to partners, instructors or pictures of founders. How about bowing to the Kamiza? In my dojo in Canada there never was one, there is at the Yoshinkan Honbu.

Spike

eyrie
07-22-2005, 01:02 AM
I suppose genuflecting in response to nikyo is not on then?

Red Beetle
07-22-2005, 01:23 AM
Sola Scripture :yuck:
Pig headed Protestants :yuck:

1 Timothy 3:14-15
Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth

In case you would like an interpretation: the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. not the bible... how do i know this? the bible says it.

Michael Kimeda


I know that some who are even victims of the Roman Catholic Church-state have pointed out your logical shortcomings on your response to me since you posted the above. You are begging the question. Remember, logical consistency is the negative test for truth. Protestantism is free from such error.

The Bible alone is the Axiom. The Bible alone is the mind of God revealed to man (John 17:8 for example). It alone defines what the church visible is, not the other way around. From this only axiom we explicitly state or logically deduce a complete system theology.

Again, the Roman Catholic Church-state claims that ordinary man can not interpret the Bible because it is infallible. They then claim that because of this the ordinary man needs an infallible interpreter (supposedly the Roman Catholic Church-state). But then who will interpret the infallible interpretation given to the ordinary man by the infallible interpreter? It follows that we must have another infallible interpreter to interpret this new infallible interpretation, and so on--ad infinitum.

So, rather than take anyone's word for it, you should be like the Bereans. Rather than resting on "church authority (sola ecclesia)," they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (sola scriptura--Acts 17:11).

Red Beetle

guest89893
07-22-2005, 07:21 AM
Monty,
You really should follow your own advice and just practice Judo.
I do not know what a particular Catholic may have done to you, to make you appear to hate us so. But we thank you for adding strength to our conviction and our Faith.

I wish you would stick to writing on martial arts. I've read your articles from your website and thought the articles were well done. The one on shime-waza was right on the money and good sound strategy.

Gene
p.s. Oh yeah, one more thing you might want to put all that research skill of yours to checking your cool little AKA, because it has non-Christian mystical connotations. But I might be wrong...

AugustV
07-22-2005, 07:47 AM
I believe we ALL should adopt the tradition of bowing rather than shaking hands. It would transmit less disease. The act itself reminds us of the Glory (potential and otherwise) in each and every one of us.

August

akiy
07-22-2005, 10:02 AM
Hi folks,

Once again, please stick to the original subject of this thread which is in regards to aikido and Catholicism/Christianity, especially in regards to "the spiritual aspects of Aikido and some thoughts about ki."

Thank you,

-- Jun

senshincenter
07-22-2005, 10:26 AM
Here's a stab at returning this back to topic - which has already been requested (rightly so) a couple of times...

In my opinion, yes, Ki, when it is thought of something akin to the "Force" (as in Star Wars), can conflict with Catholic/Christian ideals - particularly those pertaining to Love. While one might want to make a charge against the practice of superstition, etc. I am coming from a different angle here.

When we buy into notions of "Ki as the Force" (and any such similar understandings of Ki) we are actually lusting after power and/or failing to reconcile our own will to power (i.e. to seek dominance over others). We thus come to be preoccupied with manners by which we can accumulate more power for ourselves and spend less time cultivating a self that can offer service (i.e. the practice of love and compassion) to others. This happens, in my opinion, because the lust for such power is ultimately an act of egocentricism, which is the exact opposite of what it takes to follow the Way of Christ: Acts toward the cultivation of selflessness.

As a Christian (i.e. a follower of Christ) we should ask, "What does it value my soul to be able to have my arm go unbendable?" "How will this make more capable of practicing Love and Compassion?" "How does holding a jo away from by body, one that folks cannot move, bring me closer to God?" "How does standing on one leg such that no one can push me over help me to open my heart to the suffering and needs (both spiritual and worldly) of my fellow Man, my spouse, my children, my family?" For me, such things are of no value to all. They are of no value at all because they do not partake of a spirituality that is social in nature (that possesses within it the intimacy necessary to relate to another - be that other God, Christ, or Man). Or, for me, such things remain of superstition because they are more of ego gratification than of anything else. The difference is this: Christ is the true center, a center in the name of anti-egocentricism. The lust for power over others, or the attraction or pull we feel toward acquiring more Ki (as a power that is only seen or tested via the manipulation of others), or Ki as The Force, is based upon a false center, a center constructed only in the delusion of egocentricism. In this way, the pursuit of Ki or the cultivation of Ki, and thus the supporting beliefs and actions of such an understanding of Ki, can indeed be anti-Christian.

Drew Scott
07-22-2005, 11:33 AM
Here's a stab at returning this back to topic - which has already been requested (rightly so) a couple of times...
[snip]
When we buy into notions of "Ki as the Force" (and any such similar understandings of Ki) we are actually lusting after power and/or failing to reconcile our own will to power (i.e. to seek dominance over others). We thus come to be preoccupied with manners by which we can accumulate more power for ourselves and spend less time cultivating a self that can offer service (i.e. the practice of love and compassion) to others. This happens, in my opinion, because the lust for such power is ultimately an act of egocentricism, which is the exact opposite of what it takes to follow the Way of Christ: Acts toward the cultivation of selflessness.

While the behavior you describe would indeed be detrimental and contrary to most interpretations of the teachings of Christ, I think it's a bit of a leap to say "if you are attempting to cultivate this power, then you are engaging lustfully in an egocentric pursuit of power over others". This is akin to saying that since Aikido is training which allows you to thwart the goals of an attacker, it follows that all Aikido practice is an egocentric exercise of power over others. Power, and the development/pursuit of it, has no inherent morality. The application of developed power is where the morality of the WIELDER is expressed.

As a Christian (i.e. a follower of Christ) we should ask, "What does it value my soul to be able to have my arm go unbendable?" "How will this make more capable of practicing Love and Compassion?"

If my practice of Love and Compassion includes protecting the helpless and thwarting the efforts of those who would inflict suffering on others, and my study of "Ki Power" furthers my ability to do so, then it values my soul by increasing my ability to fulfill the mandates of a good Christian life. The stronger I become, in any way, the more strength I have to extend to others in need. Why reject one form of strength and accept another?
For me, such things are of no value to all. They are of no value at all because they do not partake of a spirituality that is social in nature (that possesses within it the intimacy necessary to relate to another - be that other God, Christ, or Man).
Again, I would argue that the proof of such spirituality is in the *application* of whatever power is gained from these exercises, not in the exercises themselves.
Or, for me, such things remain of superstition because they are more of ego gratification than of anything else. The difference is this: Christ is the true center, a center in the name of anti-egocentricism. The lust for power over others, or the attraction or pull we feel toward acquiring more Ki (as a power that is only seen or tested via the manipulation of others), or Ki as The Force, is based upon a false center, a center constructed only in the delusion of egocentricism. In this way, the pursuit of Ki or the cultivation of Ki, and thus the supporting beliefs and actions of such an understanding of Ki, can indeed be anti-Christian.
CAN be, for sure. But if trained with a different purpose at heart, they can also simply be the acquisition of more tools with which to further one's efforts to help the world.

Given the motivations you've described, pursuit of Ki power, or physical strength, or financial gain, or yes, perfection of Aikido technique, can all be counter to most interpretations of the teachings of Christ. However, to assign selfish, egocentric motivations automatically to these pursuits, especially if selectively assigned to those you find to be "superstition" or "of no value" seems in itself to be an egocentric act.

Regards,
Drew

AugustV
07-22-2005, 01:00 PM
Thanks all for getting back on track. Some excellent discussion. Obviously many of us have been thinking about my original questions. How about the scientists (physicists) among us? Is ki a form of physical energy, mental energy, spiritual energy, or is it--as many say--just a mental method of that helps improve technique? I am aware of some attempt to look at ki scientifically, but from what I have seen there have been no convincing studies. I am open to correction from those who know better.

August

senshincenter
07-22-2005, 01:06 PM
Hi Drew,

Thanks for the reply - at least we are off that Catholic/Protestant thing! :-)

Please allow me to elaborate a bit more then – even defining what I mean by “egocentric.”

In all that I am attempting to say, I am of course referring to the spiritual aspects of our being. As such, “egocentric” here is not being used to refer to “any position different from mine.” Nor is it being used polemically via some sort of argument for relativism. When I use the word “egocentric” I am attempting to refer to a state of being (i.e. a system of action, thought, and word) that takes as its point of interpretation the small self. The small self is the habitual self – the self seated within the realms of fear, pride, and ignorance (concerning the Way). This is important, in my opinion, because, spiritually, it is through fear, pride, and ignorance that we are separated from God and from Christ. It is also through these aspects that we cease to truly practice Love and Compassion, and/or do so only under “fair-weather” conditions.

This then is not the usual “guns kill people” or “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” kind of debate. I am attempting to talk about something else. I am referring to a spiritual process (i.e. How does one gain proximity to God and to Christ). In particular, I am referring to any process by which we come to separate ourselves from the material world and thereby gain proximity to God and/or any process by which we remain of the material world and thus gain distance from God. Thus, from a spiritual point of view, at a certain point, we are going to have to move beyond what we can do (e.g. throw people) and/or cannot do with what we know (e.g. Aikido) and/or with what we have (e.g. strength). At a certain point in the process of cultivating our spirit, we will have to straightforwardly deal with who or what we are in our being. Where are we in the following of Christ – in the imitation of the example of his being? Where are we in opening and submitting our soul to the grace of God and the true practice of Love and Compassion?

Within this perspective, I would indeed also suggest that, along with questing after “The Force,” understanding Aikido, or practicing Aikido, to gain power over others is also equally egocentric (defined above) and thus equally damaging toward our relationship with Christ. It is in this light that I would propose we understand Osensei’s suggestions that we see Aikido as Love AND that we also see Aikido as NOT victory over another but victory over ourselves (i.e. our smaller self). It may very well be true from a material perspective that guns kill people and/or that guns do not kill people, people kill people. It may very well be true from a material perspective that power and/or the pursuit of power has no inherent morality. However, from a spiritual point of view (which is not entirely captured by a concern over what we may do with such power), any power that comes to us through the cultivation of some virtue other than Love, some other aspect of ourselves that is not based in fearlessness, humility, and wisdom (i.e. the opposite of fear, pride, and ignorance), is a not only, in my opinion, a turning from the Way, a turning from Osensei’s teachings, it is also a turning from God and from Christ. The ultimate issue here is not to merely act so that others may benefit, but rather to be selfless in our actions. This is a subtle but very real distinction. When we come down on the right side of this line, we can understand, I feel, Aikido as victory over the self. I also believe we can act in the interest of others but with no thought of reward and/or of pride – acting instead from and through the grace of God – following our savior’s path. Spiritually speaking, this is more than merely working so that others gain or benefit. It is learning to work and learning to be so that I have no sense or need of gain – because I am fulfilled perfectly, completely, with the presence and the kingdom of God.

This is just an opinion. Again - thanks for the reply - very well said.

dmv

AugustV
07-22-2005, 01:16 PM
One other thing, casting aspersions on another's faith is not in the spirit of Christianity or aikido. Recall Christ's prayer for unity among his followers (There is plenty of blame to go around for our failure there). This is not the forum to argue doctrine, but I would be prepared to do so--politely--elsewhere.

One of the greatest Christians of our time, Mother Theresa of Calcutta, did not proselytize but sacrificed herself for the good of her fellow men and women. She accepted all for who they were and washed their feet humbly, lovingly, and wisely. She reflected Christ in her actions. Will that get her to Heaven? Only God knows her true heart.

When I was looking for a martial art that might be compatible with my own beliefs, I read a great deal about many. Aikido attracted me because of Morihei's enlightenment and subsequent teachings. Let us be careful NOT to be so sure that his not being Christian in this life--an accident of his birth--has kept him from God's reward. It is not ours to judge--even ourselves. That is scriptural.

In our dojo, people of sundry racial, religious, and political backgrounds practice with joy. Christ must smile on it; I bet that Osensei does as well.

August

spinecracker
07-22-2005, 01:20 PM
Hey thats interesting...first time I've read anything from the bible though I am supposed to be catholic. But you know when I read this it sounds to me that we are being told that we are supposed to be Gods...no? especially the bit "for thou art great, and doest wondrous things..thou art God alone"...is that talking about us?
:confused:

mmm...anyway I'm certainly not religious...I always liked the quote by Henry David Thorea "talk of heaven..ye disgrace earth"...

Lee, if you can't get hold of a Bible, and want to read one, I would be more than happy to send you a copy. Private message me if interested.

As for reading small bits of scripture......this can often lead towards a misunderstanding of the meaning of the scripture as it needs to be read in context with what precedes it, and what comes ater it.
"....thou art God alone" is referring to God only. Man seems to have spent most of history trying to put himself forwards as a little god (pharaohs, ceasars, Bonaparte, Hitler, Will and Grace....ok, the last one is pushing it). Plenty of sects that use the term Christian actually push the belief of Man's diety over God's (I could give a long, long list, but I think that it might cause offense to some :( )

I hope that this excellent thread has been an eye opener, for both Christians (Catholic or not) and non-Christians, and I am thankful that views expressed were respected by other posters. If such discussion brings believers closer to Jesus, and leads non-believers to Him, then I am all for it.

Drew Scott
07-22-2005, 02:53 PM
Hi Drew,

Thanks for the reply - at least we are off that Catholic/Protestant thing! :-)

Please allow me to elaborate a bit more then -- even defining what I mean by "egocentric."

[snip]

dmv

Well put. The division you are making between egocentrism and the true practice of selfless Love and Compassion is clearer to me now. I'm still chewing over your position that the development of "ki power", whatever that may be, must, by necessity, be an egocentric act. I'll have to go back and ponder your posts for a while.

Thanks for the fascinating conversation!

Regards,
Drew

senshincenter
07-22-2005, 03:37 PM
Ah – I think I get your point now over the “innateness” I am using as groundwork for the rest of my position…

I want to make clear here then that I was not referring to Ki and/or the awareness of Ki and/or the (debatable) presence of Ki, etc. In my first post, I was trying to be very specific when I only attempted to problematize a notion or practice that presents Ki as something similar or equivalent to “The Force.” For me, sensitivity of Ki, understood as the word one uses to represent the great aggregate of elements through which something (anything) is made animate (i.e. alive, moving, greater than its parts, etc.), is a part of Budo. Ki as “The Force,” while part of the history of martial arts, is a part of superstition – not a part of Budo. If one through there various ki drills and/or practices is attempting to make themselves sensitive to the great aggregate of elements through which something is made alive, moving, and greater than its parts, etc., to be sure, such a practice would NOT innately represent a departure from Budo and a venture into superstition. Nor, in my opinion, would it represent a venture into egocentricism. Rather, it would represent an attempt to open oneself up to the greater Unity of which we are undoubtedly all a part.

For me, it is the same way regarding Aikido as a whole. We can look at it in two ways: As victory over others, or as victory over ourselves. We may want to say that one thing may be the other or that one thing may lead to the other (e.g. the latter leading to the former), but this can only be said from a material perspective – where notions of victory and defeat are understood differently from how they are understood within a spiritual framework. I believe that Osensei was speaking of things from a spiritual perspective. In my opinion, when he spoke about victory over the self he was not referring to having one become some sort of knight that worked or fought for others in the name of righteousness and justice. Rather, he was talking about developing a sense of selflessness through one’s training. Thus, victory over of the self could be understood as a reconciliation with the small self or as a healthy cultivation of non-attachment toward those attributes that mark the small self (e.g. fear, pride, ignorance, etc.). Equally, it can be understood as the gaining of a discipline and/or a wisdom that allows us to act non-egocentrically. Here, Aikido as victory over the self and gaining sensitivity to the great aggregate of elements through which something (anything) is animated (i.e. ki development/ki sensitivity) overlap in a practice of selflessness. For me, this is quite different from seeing Ki as “The Force” and seeing Aikido as a mere means of gaining victory over others (whether they deserve it or not).

In short, as stated in my opinion, cultivating Ki sensitivity or practicing Ki development, as I have described it above, does not innately become from a spiritual perspective an egocentric act. Here I can agree with you.

Thank you for "inspiring" me to try and be more concise (as best I can).

Yours,
dmv

Drew Scott
07-22-2005, 05:11 PM
Ah -- I think I get your point now over the "innateness" I am using as groundwork for the rest of my position…

I want to make clear here then that I was not referring to Ki and/or the awareness of Ki and/or the (debatable) presence of Ki, etc. In my first post, I was trying to be very specific when I only attempted to problematize a notion or practice that presents Ki as something similar or equivalent to "The Force."
[snip]
In short, as stated in my opinion, cultivating Ki sensitivity or practicing Ki development, as I have described it above, does not innately become from a spiritual perspective an egocentric act. Here I can agree with you.

Thank you for "inspiring" me to try and be more concise (as best I can).

Yours,
dmv

Well stated, as always. I appreciate your taking the time to clarify your position. If I'm correctly understanding your posts, I think I can see now how the concept of Ki as a separate "mystical" force, and the cultivation of it as a method of personal power is problematic within the context of Christ as "the center" and "the source".

So, perhaps what we can draw from this to answer the originator of the thread is that Aikido and the accompanying concepts of "Ki", Budo, etc, need not conflict with one's practice as a Catholic, provided one keeps one's faith as the context within which such concepts are studied and practiced (gross generalization, I know)?

Regards,
Drew

senshincenter
07-22-2005, 08:31 PM
Yes, I would agree.

I really like the way you said this because it includes within it the notion that we must as individuals take responsibility for the overall perspective of our Aikido practice - particularly when something as universal as a personal faith is involved. It really demonstrates that Aikido can only do what we allow it to do; Aikido is only what we make of it. From this we should understand, whatever Aikido is, it can only be our Aikido. If Aikido is strong or weak - it is of our doing. If Aikido lends itself to our faith or turns us away from it - it is of our doing. If Aikido is culturally dependent or universally applicable - it is of our doing. If Aikido encases us of in a set of choreographed patterns or if Aikido frees us in takemusu aiki - it is of our doing. If Aikido is all about gaining victory over others or about gaining victory over our self - it is of our doing. For better or for worse, this is a truth none of us can escape: We are responsible! Equally, for better or for worse, this is the truth by which we can damn or save ourselves; even damn or save our art (figuratively speaking).

Again - thanks so much,
david

guest89893
07-23-2005, 03:20 AM
To me the ability to turn the other cheek lies in the fact that it is a conscious choice following the Heart of Jesus. The turn is not done out of fear because I have no other option. In doing martial arts I find and see both the tremendous power & skill we can develop and use against a human being and the incredible easy ways it is to hurt and injure said human being. I must have a guiding principle - That would rest with my Faith in God and His teachings.

When I started and began pondering over Ki (it looks like I still do) I tried a Descartes thought -sort of- and switched the perspective, ho w do the Japanese & Chinese come to terms with a soul/spirit in connection to Ki? What did the people of Christian Faith Think about electricity -it's in us ,too? Finally, I remembered that an angel - a great being from God- making wrong or evil choices is a demon- choosing to be away from God. All is God, good or evil becomes your choice.

Well off to summer camp.
Godspeed to those attending,
Gene

eyrie
07-23-2005, 07:16 AM
All this talk about "ki" and "the Force".... don't you mean "Holy Spirit"??? ;)

Drew Scott
07-23-2005, 10:19 PM
[snip]
For better or for worse, this is a truth none of us can escape: We are responsible! Equally, for better or for worse, this is the truth by which we can damn or save ourselves; even damn or save our art (figuratively speaking).


Great post. It really IS all about personal responsibility.

This one goes in the permanent file.

Thanks for the great conversation.

Regards,
Drew

Yo-Jimbo
07-25-2005, 02:13 PM
One of the greatest Christians of our time, Mother Theresa of Calcutta, did not proselytize but sacrificed herself for the good of her fellow men and women. She accepted all for who they were and washed their feet humbly, lovingly, and wisely. She reflected Christ in her actions. Will that get her to Heaven? Only God knows her true heart.

I see this as an aspect of aikido that particularly speaks to my Catholic up bringing. The idea that I might endure more training and more danger to have a better chance of preserving my enemy. Somewhere between turning the other cheek and driving out the money changers.

When I was looking for a martial art that might be compatible with my own beliefs, I read a great deal about many. Aikido attracted me because of Morihei's enlightenment and subsequent teachings. Let us be careful NOT to be so sure that his not being Christian in this life--an accident of his birth--has kept him from God's reward. It is not ours to judge--even ourselves. That is scriptural.

I agree that people are to quick to point fingers at others and not look in the mirror. Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Of course, I'd rather be persecuted by an unjust God than be the sycophant of a righteous one.

In our dojo, people of sundry racial, religious, and political backgrounds practice with joy. Christ must smile on it; I bet that Osensei does as well.

August
I'd like to think that dojos should be run in that way. People coming together to practice dealing with conflict.

Again off topic, but I have to ask the small world question:
August, do you have any Valenti relatives in Ishpeming, MI? I sometimes train with a Mark Valenti.

AugustV
07-26-2005, 03:16 PM
James,

I have no relatives in that part of the world. Thank you for your reply. It is certainly time for Christians, at least, to stop bickering. O'Sensei developed a peaceful, healthful way for people to learn to manage conflict. Like many others in this forum, I do not see it conflicting with Christianity for those who practice in a manner consistent with a Christian point of view. I was curious to see if others had considered the "appearance of impropriety," in the "ritual" aspects of aikido or in its underlying philosophy. I am glad to have intelligent discussion going on.

August

Red Beetle
07-31-2005, 07:36 PM
Here is a good article explaining why Catholicism, among other things, has nothing to offer Aikido, or anything else.

The article was written by a well respected Roman Catholic Bishop.
A must read for any serious Catholic.



http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=31


Red Beetle
Look for our television show which will be promoting Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido.
www.kingsportjudo.com

Mashu
07-31-2005, 08:11 PM
That was an interesting read. Thanks. Around the 1870's and on was a bad time for established hierarchical religions in the West. They took a real beating and a myriad of different groups and movements appeared. Lot's of peculiar characters took advantage when organizations like the Catholic church was losing it's grip.