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DustinAcuff
07-13-2005, 03:14 PM
We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts? Even my sensei has little idea how it could be done without suffering too much. Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?

Kevin Leavitt
07-13-2005, 03:36 PM
you will get your ass kicked using empty hand aikido tactics. end of discussion.

Skilled guy who has sticks trumps guy who does not.

Sure, in theory it is possible to do "perfect aikido" and beat the guy...but my bet is the guy with sticks! :)

Jo staff might be interesting, but I don't think too many aikidoka probably really know how to apply the Jo very well against escrima sticks moving at full speed.

That said, I think aikido is very complimentary to escrima/kali.

Big thing with martial arts training, especially when you start talking full speed, reality based training against mixed tactics such as aikido and escrima is to remember that

1. there are no rules.
2. He who has the advantage will usually win.
3. find the advantage however you can. that might involve picking up an object, finding a buddy, or running..be creative and don't restrict yourself to the paradigm of your training.
4. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, or empty hands to a knife fight.
5. Refer to rule #1...there are no rules.
6. Don't stand and fight unless you know you can win. Better to run and live or appologize, buy time, or beg for mercy than get pounded. Better to retreat and return for another day when you can win.
7. Don't fight for real ever if you don't have to.

Chuck Clark
07-13-2005, 05:09 PM
Kevin,

I haven't seen a better post in a long, long time. Well said.

Rod Yabut
07-13-2005, 05:36 PM
I know a few aikidoka that do combine kali/escrima with their aikido training, and by principle, both are complimentary to each other.

I have been to a Dog Brothers tournament where a guy with a bo (little bit longer than our aikijo) went against a guy with a stick and knife. To win with a jo is to use its length against a short range weapons of course. I'm not sure how skilled the stick/knife guy was, but the bo fella kept him away until he used a shomen cut about 6 feet away and hit s/k guy on the middle of the his head.

Until then, I was convinced that aikiweapons won't work against other systems...but that gave me hope.

Anybody starts weilding two sticks at you with grace and confidence..run. But if he looks like an idiot doing it, maybe you take your chance...unless he's playing possum.

Tubig
07-13-2005, 06:26 PM
Boxing wise. Escrima or Kali will win. It is called Mano Mano. The idea of escrima is you train with weapons both hands with either kali (Sticks) or Gulok (machette), the better one gets the shorter the weapon gets, until it becomes a Patalim (dagger length) and balisong (butterfly knives). Hence by the time the 'Escrimador' will get to empty hand they are very good, very fast, and overwhelming. Not really a good idea for static aikido. Aikidoka has to move with escrimador.

We have practiced with boken and Jo against Kali. Boken wise or aikiken wise it is pretty even. I find it hard that I commit to cut or tsuki with either yokomen or shomen, and the escrimador was just feinting. A lot Ai utch (mutual kill) though, and sore foreheads if trained with speed. There is a strong wood almost mystical to the point of legendary called kamagong. The Filipinos used to support train tracks with it, and apparently if one throws it in water, it sinks. Very strong, it can actually take on a boken with weight of the cuts. When the escrimador uses walong palo (eight cuts) it will rain hits, very quick very hard to block with a boken. I tcan even break a good boken if the kamagong is used. However if aikidoka uses a katana it will be different story. Then again the escrimador can shift to the Gulok, and it could get even again.

With the Jo, escrimador lost. I broke my set of Kalis. Very expensive mistake. I had to wait til my next trip to the Phils to get new ones. :(
Escrimadors cannot dodge or block Toma huch, and we sent kalis flying with normal jo blocks. The length aspect is a winner. The escrimador found it hard to enter.

Taijutsu aikidoka wins, especially the grappling aspect of it. our ikyo, nikyo, and sankyo is just too irresistable. Escrimadors have a karate and judo version of grappling. Our aikido grappling is just beautifully genuine and effective.

just my two cents :p

Roy
07-13-2005, 06:42 PM
The only problem with sticks is, you have to carry the sticks at all times. This would be kind of hard to do in a dance club doing the macranina, or at a violent christmas family reunion etc...

Tubig
07-13-2005, 06:56 PM
Lol. Hear here Roy.

Also there is one aspect of Arnis De Mano or Kali training that Aikido has an advantage... drum rolls please........

UKEMI!!!!!. Kokyu nage, Koshinage, Kukyu Nage, kote gaeshi, and my favourite kumi nage can really be hard if one can't do ukemi out of it. Especially on concrete. OUCH!

Tubig
07-13-2005, 10:35 PM
By the way. If anyone sees any escrimador using a kriss. RUN! it is very deadly.

Roy
07-14-2005, 12:13 AM
Yes, I will run if being attacked with a Kriss! Here's something many aikido people use that you should run away from. If you are ever in a dark alley, and you are approached by an Aikidoka brandishing a samurai sword, I would also suggest that you run your ass off, whether or not you are armed with sticks with a Kriss :D

DustinAcuff
07-14-2005, 12:30 AM
Lol. Um..excuse me....if you see a escrimador using any kind of bladed object dont you run anyway?

Solution to not being able to carry kali's all the time: use drum sticks?

I understand aikido has ukemi for a reason, but anyone have any idea how to get a hold of the pesky stick swingin little bugger?

Roy
07-14-2005, 01:01 AM
Yes, I do! Chop the swinging little bugger with a samurai sword.

Kevin Leavitt
07-14-2005, 03:11 AM
it is difficult to get in to get ahold of the sticks, but basically you need to close distance rapidily and clinch so he cannot hit you. from the clinch there are a multitude of things you can do. Biggest thing is to realize you will get hit, it will hurt, so you cannot hesitate and must go in fast and violently. Protect vital areas as you get hit.

Really the clinch is not much different from kokyu and irimi tenkan, just done a little closer in

Roy
07-14-2005, 06:49 PM
I agree with Kevin. Get in quick and dirty. You can also use Judo throws or leg lifts to throw him over and from there on the ground, you will have even more options. Do philipino stick martial arts clubs generally include ground fighting in the classes?

AikiSean!
07-14-2005, 08:59 PM
From what I understand, Kali praftioners apply the exact same techniques with weapons, as without. They strike very very well empty handed applying the same principles.

Tubig
07-14-2005, 09:18 PM
I am not sure actually if they have ground work. I have never heard of ground work in arnis de mano and escrima. I do not think they do ground work as extensive as jujutsu or wrestling. I also noticed that they do not train on mats, hence they do not really do ukemis. However I noticed that they have and specialised in the same maai fighting distance as aiki. You are right though, they hit and hard and accurately and a lot of it. If you watch 'Bourne Identity I and II' They used Escrima and arnis de mano for the fighting scenes. In fact they used Mano mano for most of the fighting scenes. Mano mano is an effective empty hand or boxing fighting style. Trust me I have tasted it literally in the streets of Manila. I haven't really seen the Visayans (Visaya is the birth place of the art) fight it off, because I am not from there though.

Stanley Archacki
07-15-2005, 10:35 AM
Hi all,
I've been reading the forums for a year now, but I didn't want to join until I had actually started training in Aikido. I've been doing Aikido for only a little over a month, but I've been studying Remy Presas's Modern Arnis for over four years.

There is a story arnisadors like to tell about Professor Presas when he was young in the Philipines. He used to accept challanges in those days. One of the men challenging him was an expert in the Sinawali style, using two sticks in the fast weaving patterns often thought of as the signature of the Filipino arts. He was weaving very fast creating a wall of sticks in front of him. Professor Presas simply used a long stick and crashed right down the middle on top of the other guys head, knocking him out.

Back to Aikido, I can't speak as an authority at all, not even having kyu rank yet, but I would think that a similar strategy would work with a jo or a ken. From my FMA experience, we are taught that when going weapon vs weapon, it is often best not to block the weapon or to attack the body right away, but to destroy the other's weapon hand or arm. The superior reach of the Japanese weapons would be good for this strategy.

Also, I wouldn't assume double stick on the part of the FMA practitioner. As an Arnisador, I would feel most confident going after an Aikidoka with a single stick. That is when the "live" empty hand really comes in, and when the trapping and stick grappling get fast and furious. Still, I think in this case, the Aikidoka would do best focusing on tai sabaki and irimi, taking the Arnisador's center right away. There is little chance the Aikidoka's hands are faster and better trained than this particular oponent, but he or she is likely better at maintaining their own balance and taking that of their Filipino adversary.

Just my thoughts. Again, I am a rank novice at Aikido, and still only a student of Arnis.

Sincerely,
Stan Archacki

Adam Alexander
07-15-2005, 12:29 PM
We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts?

With all the stories that I've read about Ueshiba, I have a hard time believing he couldn't beat any of them...being that he's Aikido, that's the bar to compare to.

DustinAcuff
07-16-2005, 12:44 AM
I agree completely Jean, I'm just curious about how to go about it, and there have been a number of replys outlining do's and dont's from people who know what they're talking about more than I do.

Well said though!

CNYMike
07-16-2005, 10:17 PM
We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts? Even my sensei has little idea how it could be done without suffering too much. Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?

You would be in serious trouble, to say the least. The main issue WRT sticks IMHO is the speed of the weapon -- in combat, the tip will be coming at you anywhere from 120 to 200 miles an hour, and it's not unusual to change direction very quickly. You may not even see it; you may not have a lot of time to deal with it. Knives are lethal -- period. You would be hard pressed not to be cut up real bad, perhaps fatally so.

Also remember that systems like LaCoste/Inosanto Kali are comprehensive systems dealing with many weapons and many categories of empty hand tehcnique. So in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY EVENT you ended up in altercation with a "highly skilled" FMA person, he or she would have a heckuva lot of tricks up their sleeves, some easier to deal with than others.

I'm not saying up or down which "side" would win (thank you, BTW, for giving me a renewed appreciation for the wishbone's point of view), but pointing out the difficulties you would face.

That said, do you really have to worry about this? I'd wager that any Kali/FMA people in your area are earnestly training in their arts just as you are training in Aikido; and especially anyone with Guro Dan Inosanto in their lineage (like me) would be more inclined to crosstrain in Aikido (like me) then try to start a fight (like some yahoo who'd have no busniess in either art).

CNYMike
07-16-2005, 10:20 PM
Do philipino stick martial arts clubs generally include ground fighting in the classes?

I can't speak for other systems, but LaCoste/Inosanto Kali does. It's part of the grappling system, Dumog.

I keep saying that although Kali begins with the stick, it's about everything, really. You name it, they got it!

DustinAcuff
07-17-2005, 12:23 AM
Mike, unfortunately not all the people in my immediate area have the best mentality. A good portion do not. I live 40 minutes from Fresno and 2 hrs from Stockton, home of Antonio Somera and known as the cradle of Kali in north america. Around here Filipinos have a reputation from being quite volatile and lethal. I know a few people who used to train with Angel who have told me stories about some of the Kali guys that were very...colorful. One that comes to mind was about a local master who doesn't take non-Filipino students who stabbed a guy he walked by on the street just out of the blue, and from what I understood it took the guy a few seconds to realize he had been stabbed and it was probably an aorta shot. I'm asking in general for informative purposes, but being an EMT who will soon be in LA I need to know what I can just for that "what if".

Just to clarify, most of the people who are seeking the art for knowledge are probably good people, but this is something that people who are only first or second generation immigrants teach out of their basements. Those are the people who scare me.

CNYMike
07-17-2005, 07:30 PM
Mike, unfortunately not all the people in my immediate area have the best mentality. A good portion do not. I live 40 minutes from Fresno and 2 hrs from Stockton, home of Antonio Somera and known as the cradle of Kali in north america. Around here Filipinos have a reputation from being quite volatile and lethal. I know a few people who used to train with Angel who have told me stories about some of the Kali guys that were very...colorful. One that comes to mind was about a local master who doesn't take non-Filipino students who stabbed a guy he walked by on the street just out of the blue, and from what I understood it took the guy a few seconds to realize he had been stabbed and it was probably an aorta shot. I'm asking in general for informative purposes, but being an EMT who will soon be in LA I need to know what I can just for that "what if".

Just to clarify, most of the people who are seeking the art for knowledge are probably good people, but this is something that people who are only first or second generation immigrants teach out of their basements. Those are the people who scare me.

Oh, I see. :eek: Well, you're right, I can't help you, because the only Kali people I know are out here in Central New York and connected with Guro Dan Inosanto.

If you haven't done so already, your best bet would be to see what you can find out from LA law enforcement or EMT guys about what they typically run into on calls involoving Filipino Americans. Obviously, if a lot of guys are beaten, stabbed, choked, or otherwise obliterated by Filipino American suspects, there is cause for concern. However, not every Filipino American is a Filipino martial artists; some of the old timers didn't teach what they knew and those strands of knowledge died out. Guro Kevin Seaman likes to tell the story about how when Guro Dan went home to Stockton to look into FMA (at the urging of Ed Parker), he was very surprised (to put it mildly) to find out that his father, his uncle(s), and even the barber who had cut his hair since he was a little kid were all FMA masters! "But we didn't think you were interested," his barber said. "You were more interested in the football and the baseball. So we didn't teach you anything!"

Obviously, Guro Dan got his jaw reconnected to his skull afterwards. :) Point is, yeah, it's a cause for concern, but maybe not one to panic about. The law enforcement and EMT guys out there will give you a better idea about what you're most likely to run into than some anecdotes about scary masters. As to a "what if," I can't think of anything to suggest that you could learn right away, assuming I could even describe it over the 'net, so for the short term, mind what you know: Pay attention to everything you've been yelled at other than the techniques, like the initial entry and zanshin.

For the long term, once in LA (assuming you're moving there; mea culpa if I'm wrong on that point), you could take Kali at the Inosanto Academy ( http://www.inosanto.com ); that combined with continued training in Aikido/Aikijutsu will help you.

Sorry I couldn't help more; hope this is useful.

Adam Alexander
07-20-2005, 01:32 PM
The main issue WRT sticks IMHO is the speed of the weapon -- in combat, the tip will be coming at you anywhere from 120 to 200 miles an hour, and it's not unusual to change direction very quickly.

In Aikido, we don't worry about the tip of the sword...or the jo...or the whatever. They are extensions of the ego. Master the ego, you'll own the toy it plays with...even sticks.

Or, if you don't like that way of saying it, the body doesn't move unexpectedly--even if it's just a fraction of a second--there's notice of movement...that's one of the things Aikidoka are training to catch.

csinca
07-20-2005, 01:41 PM
One of the things that I noticed in my introduction to sticks was that there are a lot more angles than I thought, and some of the ones that didn't look like much, turned out to be pretty nasty. While a stick in untrained hands is likely to come in a path akin to a shomen or yokomen, in the hands of a trained fighter, the angles might be something you are a little less used to seeing.

Chris

Kevin Leavitt
07-20-2005, 01:44 PM
Jean,

I certainly understand what you are saying philsophically..but extensions of the ego, or not....you had better be focused on the "here and now" and protecting your own ego (body) if you have some skilled sticks flying at you.

Most aikidoka are not trained to catch sticks...as much as we'd like to think we are good enough to see those movement in a moment of mushin..I have yet to see this demonstrated very effectively with full force.

In a dojo, in a controlled environment...yes.....in a full on assault..no.

Maybe you could hook up with the Dog brothers and do a demo for us?

I hate to see aikidoka have their heads full of stuff that will get them killed or hurt.

I am as philosophical and elightment seeking as they come...so I hear ya!

Just like to try and balance it with a good realistic paradigm and comon sense though!

Kevin Leavitt
07-20-2005, 01:49 PM
Chris,

I don't really think the angles are the issue. They really are pretty much the same as shomen/yokomen,kote, do..they are just moving so damn fast!

Speed, hardness of the stick, and the extension of the stick is the real issue.

yea in theory, aikido footwork is wonderful and I find it very relevant. That said, the best thing to do is to either run (stay out of range)...or two, move into his center very rapidily to a clinch (irimi) and avoid the sticks. Don't be so concerned with the angles as to the range/distance of the fight.

If you have no sticks...get some, or get his, or run!

csinca
07-20-2005, 04:50 PM
Kevin,

It could be a style difference but the angles I'm refering to were the "backhand/backfist type and came off the parry. I was also surprised by the force generated by the simple rotation of the forearm which looked like simply flicking the stick but in reality was a bit more painful, taking us back to the velocity issue!

So the stick in the right hand is generally going to come in along a yoko or shomen path as long as you're starting out with the hand on the right side of your centerline. Once the right hand comes across the centerline you start getting into "backhand" type strikes, both high and low/upward.

Of course once the hand crosses the centerline you can check/trap it, but then you (okay I) catch the end of the 28-30 inch long stick coming down on the bride of my nose when the other guys rotates his "trapped" forearm.

The other thing I noticed was that the stick guys I've worked with are not coming in with a snigle committed strick but are more intent on working a series of a dozen or so strikes while they circle. This is a different attacking mindset than most aikido dojos I've ever been to work with.

When it's two sticks, that also changes the openings for entrance. Entering past one can put you right into that second one.

I'm definitely at the run way stage, that's why I cross train in "running" every Sunday! After you chase me four or five miles, my stick takeaways get much better!

Chris

Stanley Archacki
07-21-2005, 09:16 AM
I agree that you really have to know what you're doing when attempting to trap, control or disarm an escrima stick. If any of you have seen the Abaniko style of striking, you know what I mean. Say I come in with the but of the stick for a shomen uchi. If you block my arm and attempt to control it, which right away seems more like Karate than Aikido to me, I rotate my wrist only, while you have a reverse katate tori, no matter how tight, and can strike you hard on both sides of the head in less than a second. Similarly, if I have the stick in my right hand chambered at my left side like a sheathed sword, and you attempt to control the wrist, I could put my left hand on your hand and quickly rotate my right wrist, simultaneously striking you in the head with the tip of my stick (the most dangerous part), and pulling you into that strike. This doesn't even get into all of the locking that we train in Arnis from stick play. While we're infighting, we train as soon as nage touches uke's stick or arm to apply nikkyo, sankyo, yubi dori or countless other locks, not from traditional Aikido entries but from the stick play itself.

As I progress in Aikido, I will be looking for Aikido defenses to the sticks. I hope I don't come off like a prizefighter for the FMA. It's just where my experience lies. If I didn't think that Aikido offered very efficient and elegant defenses for all attacks from all styles, I wouldn't have started to study it. Still, the FMA's are a lot of fun. I encourage anyone who is interested to check it out. The group I train with is the International Modern Arnis Federation. They put on a ton of seminars and camps open to people with any or no experience and are a really friendly group. Professor Presas called Modern Arnis "The art within your art", and many have studied it to enhance their primary style, without taking anything away. The web site is www.modernarnis.net. I'm in Chicago and I'll be at the Orland Park Arnis Fest in October. If anyone here is interested, I'd be happy to meet you there.

Regards,
Stanley

CNYMike
07-21-2005, 10:23 AM
In Aikido, we don't worry about the tip of the sword...or the jo...or the whatever .....

He wasn't asking about how weapons are used in Aikido, he was asking about Kali, specifically, what if a trained FMA person came at him with one or two sticks. The speed of the tip is important because at longer ranges, that is what (s)he will be hitting with, and Kali people put their whole bodies behind the move to get the most speed and power out of it. ("Kali," in fact, is a contraction of "Kamot Lihok," which means "hand (and body) movement.")

Of course, for training, you go slower, but predicate your techniques or drills on the assumption it's going much faster, just as with a boken you train as if it's a live sword which can cut you when, in fact, it's not (although it can bash your brains in). The system does eventually walk you up to going full speed, though for safety, the vast majority of people who do full contact stick fighting wear what can best be described as padded Kendo armor -- that's what it looks like, and the helmets have the exact same kind of grillwork as kendo helmets. (The Dog Brothers use considerably less padding but can safely be considered unique in that regard.)

And having said all that, the tip (punto) is not all you can use; close in you can hit with the but of the weapon (punyo), or just treat the stick as a roll of quarters and punch with your stick hand. And you still have your other hand and both feet to punch and kick with. As well as trapping, grappling, and generally fighting dirty.

So an aikido person facing a Kali person of comparable skill would probably have his (or her) work cut out for her/him. Would the Aikido person get his butt kicked? Or would the Kali person be pinned to the ground like a bug? I don't know. But our hypotheitcal Aikidoka would have a lot of variables to deal with, and I was just pointing that out, based on the 7+ years I've been training in LaCoste Inosanto Kali.

csinca
07-21-2005, 10:30 AM
Stanley I think you just provided a much better description of what I experienced!

When I first saw the striking coming off the wrist rotation I wasn't much impressed, then I got to feel a little taste and then I got to do it. It's a wicked and fast shot...

Chris

Stanley Archacki
07-21-2005, 11:24 AM
Yes, Chris, you're right about the wicked fast! :) Techniques like these lend easily to principles like flow and counter for counter. Little of our practice is attack > defend> finish. Rather, we play continuous counter for counter, stopping in training to point out where we can finish, but also where we are vulnerable to counter ourselves. A good FMA player will not overcommit, and does not rely on one strike, one kill. You have to TAKE their center; they will not give it to you.

Stanley

Adam Alexander
07-21-2005, 12:28 PM
Mike G...

Don't get caught up on the phrasing...it's the point that is relevant.


1)I certainly understand what you are saying philsophically..but extensions of the ego, or not....you had better be focused on the "here and now" and protecting your own ego (body) if you have some skilled sticks flying at you.

2)Most aikidoka are not trained to catch sticks...as much as we'd like to think we are good enough to see those movement in a moment of mushin..I have yet to see this demonstrated very effectively with full force.

3)Maybe you could hook up with the Dog brothers and do a demo for us?

4)I hate to see aikidoka have their heads full of stuff that will get them killed or hurt.

5)I am as philosophical and elightment seeking as they come...so I hear ya!

6)Just like to try and balance it with a good realistic paradigm and comon sense though!

1)Yeah, I thought that the concrete interpretation that followed in the second paragraph of what you're referring to would clarify what I was saying...apparently, not. Reread my post...atleast respond to the point.

2)Aikidoka AREN'T!!! responding to sticks, fists, knifes, what have you. But, I'll drop this one. I hope your training develops to a point where you understand what I'm referring to.

3)Sure...but I think there's already a lot of demos that illustrate Aikido...Unfortunately, the nuances that you're missing will not be any clearer to you now or then...atleast not because of a demo.

4)Me to. I'd prefer they spend time in an Aikido dojo learning a meaningful MA rather than mess around with a MA of the week...or splitting their attention.

5)Yeah, reread the second paragraph of the post you're referring to...it's a more practical interpretation of the preceding of that post.

6)Not me. I want to see people get into Aikido dojo and learn uncommon sense...the kind you've got to work hard with on a single technique within a single art a lot of times to understand...

Kevin Leavitt
07-21-2005, 01:39 PM
again, I said I agreed with you in Theory...correctly applied the principles of aikido will work the way you described. The issue comes from what happens when you make mistakes at full speed as 99% of us will do. In real life, you need to develop a game plan that allows you to compensate for those mistakes and adjust your fight plan to get things back on a level playing field and back to your advantage.

Just as in a knife fight...it is fine to practice slow, methodical technique with correct posture etc...but in a real situation, many times you don't have the luxury of seeing uke's subtle moves, so you must commit to a strategy to irimi or run, it may not be ideal the ideal side, but it is better than waiting for a fast knife to come at you. Once you are "in" or "out" you can adjust your game to get things where you want them.

I really don't care about the nuiances being clear to me in a real full speed attack, what I care about is surviving with minimal damage. I am very careful not to confuse my training (where I care about learning the nuiances) with reality/survival.

I think you are selling many people and their ability to study multiple things that are complimentary in nature short. I have found that it doesn't split my attention, but helps me "push" the envelope and develop my art. Maybe when I was new to the art of aikido it would have been confusing, and maybe I am not the best aikidoka in the world, and maybe I could be better at aikido if I spent more time on it...but that is not my entire goal in life right now, as is for many.

I have a responsibility to prepare myself and the people I train for combat, so when I look at topics such as "Kali versus Aikido" I tend to be pragmatic and look at "effective" and th 80% solution...not the theoretical appropriate response that is principally correct.

Meaningful means different things to different people. Your post seems to assume that other martial arts are not meaningful in someway. I find Aikido meaningful to me as a long term goal, not so meaningful when I need to defend myself against two by fours, sticks, knifes, and guys that want to kill me right now. There are better ways to develop strategies for this defense than aikido...so I do find other arts very relevant and meaningful!

I think we like to think that our martial art (aikido) is the ultimate end all and be all of martial arts..that it has the appropriate response for every situation...it simply does not.

You really set yourself up for failure when you try and look at a aiki response to kali, since there really is no pure aiki or non aiki response, only what works!

Rod Yabut
07-21-2005, 03:00 PM
Around here Filipinos have a reputation from being quite volatile and lethal. I know a few people who used to train with Angel who have told me stories about some of the Kali guys that were very...colorful. One that comes to mind was about a local master who doesn't take non-Filipino students who stabbed a guy he walked by on the street just out of the blue, and from what I understood it took the guy a few seconds to realize he had been stabbed and it was probably an aorta shot.

Stabbing out of the blue?...premeditated violence is rare with true martial artists. This event you are describing is probably gang related, as Stockton has a long history of Filipino settlers circa 1920s and these are deep rooted more than you think.

Adam Alexander
07-21-2005, 04:53 PM
...only what works!

When Aikido is trained in properly, it will always work.

Jay Mills
07-21-2005, 07:33 PM
If Kali is trained properly it will always work too. I dont really think people understand how simple, fast, and effective the FMA really are compared with other systems. I have seen children in Manila that would make you rethink your styles effectiveness against the blade! These arts derived from centuries of tribal warfare, everything was trained to be 100% effective in real time, against someone that was fighting you back. It also doesnt take years to get good at and it compliments most other systems! As far as sticks being a real concern today, yes that is possible be it a club, or any stick like object, but i would say that most FMA practitioners, myself included, would be using a blade or multiple blades for practicality sake. You think a stick is tough to deal with, try a blade or multiple blades, they are so fast its unreal, and they dont miss! The FMA is weapons based but ultimately an empty handed system, we also use single stick, double stick, stick & dagger, double dagger, panatukan (Filipino boxing), Sikaran (Filipino kicking methods), Domoug (Filipino Wrestling, Kino Mutai (Biting & Eye gouging), and Kuntao & Silat techniques. Everyday objects, such as umbrellas, books, bandannas, etc., become effective means of self-defense. The FMA are for combat, they are NOT a budo or an esthetic practice, they were and are used to survive a violent encounter, period.

Yes its fun to debate these types of scenerios, but please believe me when i say, you do not want to come up against someone who really knows how to use blades, whatever your style is!

By the way, i have been seeing Magulang Na Guro Dan Inosantos name being brought up on these boards. Yes he trained and was greatly influenced by Grandmaster John La Coste, but his FMA are drawn from 26 primary influences. He will probly be looking heavily into Sayoc Kali these days, that and the iilustrisimo system are the best i have ever seen with a blade, and the whole combat mentality in general!

CNYMike
07-22-2005, 11:03 AM
Mike G...

Don't get caught up on the phrasing...it's the point that is relevant.



:confused: Great; now I don't know what you're talking about. :confused:

Ron Tisdale
07-22-2005, 11:22 AM
Everyday objects, such as umbrellas, books, bandannas, etc., become effective means of self-defense.

Uh, yeah, but...can they defend against a banana?

RT (inquiring minds want to know...) :)

DustinAcuff
07-22-2005, 12:03 PM
Rod, I understand that the incident I mentioned is in the minority of people, however I have heard a number of stories from a friend who trians in FMAs as well as friends and faimly who work at the local hospital. I have also heard these same stories from medical people in Fresno.

I highly doubt that even 1 out of 50 people who train FMAs are like that, but from my perspective as someone who has spent time helping out in the ER and as EMS, I see the worst 1% of people as frequent flyers. I posted this thread out of curioscity. But you have to keep in mind, it is not uncommon for your local Ambulance crews to find themselves at the other end of a weapon, be it knife, gun, stick, baseball bat, dog, spouce or whatever. Does it happen most of the time? No. Will everyone get that freaky call on a Friday night to go to a bad part of town for unknown reasons? Yep.

Adam Alexander
07-22-2005, 02:33 PM
If Kali is trained properly it will always work too...

Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique.


Mike G.

You didn't get the point of the post you're referring to--the second paragraph of the post you were responding to gives the point of the post--the tip of sword and ego were/are just expressions of the point that followed.

Stanley Archacki
07-22-2005, 03:00 PM
Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique.

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/fighting.html


I have yet to see, and I never expect to see, an "unstoppable" fighting technique. These questions that come up about this art vs that art aren't yes/no questions about whether one trumps the other.

Rather, these questions are explorations about the possibilites that each art provides. I'm more concerned with the "how" than the "whether" in these hypothetical confrontations. Lets talk about specific techniques, stratagies and theories that the arts provide, not the supposed invincibility of a particular art.

Stanley

Kevin Leavitt
07-22-2005, 03:09 PM
Jean Wrote:

Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique

Oh, Okay!

????? I am speechless! How do you address this?

Adam Alexander
07-22-2005, 03:10 PM
1)I have yet to see, and I never expect to see, an "unstoppable" fighting technique. These questions that come up about this art vs that art aren't yes/no questions about whether one trumps the other.

Rather, these questions are explorations about the possibilites that each art provides. I'm more concerned with the "how" than the "whether" in these hypothetical confrontations. 2) Lets talk about specific techniques, stratagies and theories that the arts provide, not the supposed invincibility of a particular art.

1)Then you've never had anyone take your balance...Do you train in Aikido?

When Aikido techniques are performed correctly, Uke picks the technique, Sh'te just guides him/her through it...it's unstoppable because it's not confronting anything capable of stopping it.

2)That's what I'm saying...that's why I was trying to change the style of questioning to "pick a technique."

Stanley Archacki
07-22-2005, 04:06 PM
Any technique, from any art, will work, when it works. I cross train in tautolojitsu. :) An asset of my Arnis training has been ( I said an asset, not an advantage over Aikido) that I as "nage" regularly train with the assumption that my technique will not work. That it will get countered, be to slow, that I won't get a firm grip, etc. Not because that's how it's supposed to work, but because that's how it sometimes ends up. In Modern Arnis, specifically, we call this Tapi Tapi, or counter for counter. Many other FMA styles practice this way too, and call it something different.

I know Aikido has kaeshi waza. It's just that we start practicing in this counter for counter way from several months in. It helps in making a student see connections between techniques and situations. Within the first year, a student learns the Nikkyo lock for example, and then is challenged with finding appropriate places to apply it, even if they were never taught that specific application. Another art I have some small experience in, Small Cirlce Jujitsu, also stresses this ability to move to a different technique when the first one doesn't work as planned.


I have no "unstoppable" techniques in my Arnis arsenal; nor would the high ranking masters or even Professor Presas himself (when he was with us), in the way that you, RonJon, talk about them. I'm sure that ideally Aikido has a counter for anything I could throw at you. That's not the point of this thread.

As I see it, some of the strengths of the FMA's are:
1) "hedging one's bets" so to speak- Not relying on one strike and not giving away much balance when attacking

2) the ability to generate power quickly from many angles without much chambering or setup- This allows for a great deal of responsiveness.

3) the aforementioned ability to "flow", and really just deal with whatever happens

In my opinion one of the great strengths of Aikido is the ability to cut throught the "tenticles", the two arms and sometimes legs moving so fast they seem like eight, and go right for the CENTER of the beast. Aikido is particularly strong at this.

There has been some interesting, constructive discussion on this forum from people with experience in Aikido, Kali and both. Let's keep it up. We all love Aikido. That's why were here on AikiWeb. We don't need Aikido cheerleaders to keep up our Aikido morale. We would all hate for this forum to be to Aikido what Bullshido is to MMA and BJJ. If it's not AIKIDO, it's CRAP! ;)

xuzen
07-22-2005, 10:18 PM
In my opinion one of the great strengths of Aikido is the ability to cut through the "tentacles", the two arms and sometimes legs moving so fast they seem like eight, and go right for the CENTER of the beast. Aikido is particularly strong at this.


Hello Stanley,

I agree with your points about going into the centre of the BEAST. Once my dojo had a student (dojo yaburi actually) came to my sensei and asked him how does aikido handle multiple jabs ala boxing. So sensei said, OK go ahead. So the dojo yaburi err.... I mean student went into a boxing guard stance and started the jabbing moves. Sensei was unperturbed and went right in, and control the student's neck, did a variation of iriminage, when they are on the floor, sensei continue with what I think was hadaka jime until the student tap out. BTW, the student was in his twenties and my sensei is in his sixties.

Stanley, sometimes, people on a different art are trained to move their hands very fast, making catching it impossible. I guess my response would be like the above, ignore the hands and cut right into the centre (eg the neck) where you can control the opponent. But that may just be me, whose only ever learned the jutsu type art.

But I caveat, if the opponent is carrying two live knifes and doing the move, I would run, or get a pole or projectile weapon.

On a lighter note, if I have a live blade (shinken) the opponent with knives can cut my arms while I would, again cut right through and slice the carotid artery, end of story. But then, this is not olden day Japan. I guess, a better choice would be to run and get help from the authority. Remembering the assailant body structure, face, any distinct facial feature and conveying these to the investigating officer is a better option.

Boon.

Jay Mills
07-22-2005, 10:29 PM
"Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique."


Well anyone can give a detailed description of any martial art technique from any system then supply a theoretical step by step counter to it!
Im talking about what happens in combat, not 1, 2, 3 step moves practiced in a prearranged manner with little to no resistance!
If you truly believe that Aikido alone is the be all end all answer to a skilled knife fighter, or ANY encounter with a live blade for that matter, then you are living with some very dangerous misconceptions, and people can end up dead with that type of training mindset!
I have worked with several aikidoka, from several different styles, ranging from 1 - 20 years in experience, their understanding of surviving a real knife attack is non exsistent to minimal at most! My youngest student using a red magic marker made most of them look like they had been mauled by a bear! Maybe we should all plan to have a gathering of somekind, we could get everyone togather using chalked training blades or magic markers and just show how really difficult it is to defend against fullspeed non prearranged attacks using 1 and 2 blades! Im not going to argue or try to convince anyone of anything further but If anyone is interested in trying something like this, let me know, i can probly set something up within the next few months!

CNYMike
07-23-2005, 12:17 AM
Mike G.

You didn't get the point of the post you're referring to--the second paragraph of the post you were responding to gives the point of the post--the tip of sword and ego were/are just expressions of the point that followed.


Yeah, well, somebody missed something because my response was to describe the physical dynamics of stick technique and other issues an Aikido person facing that would have to worry about, and you seem to be saying, "Don't worry about that." Sorry. Don't go along with that.

CNYMike
07-23-2005, 12:51 AM
..... We all love Aikido. That's why were here on AikiWeb. We don't need Aikido cheerleaders to keep up our Aikido morale ....

Well said. If you ask me, the Aikido-v.-kali my-art-can-beat-your-art part of this thread has got out of hand. Everyone should just take a deep breath and calm down.

At the end of the day, I came back to Aikido after a 16 year abscence because I love/am addicted to (pick one) Aikido; it got in my blood back in the '80s and that was it. I did so with my Kali instructor's blessing and encouragment (I was reluctant because I thought I would be exhausted at the end of the week, but he said "Go for it!"); in fact, he has told me he's happy that I'm doing everything I'm doing. I sometimes think I'm crazy, but OTOH, I'm not doing anything I want to drop.

There are plenty of things in Kali that Aikido people don't formally train against. Then again, there are areas where Kali and Aikido play with the same ideas. This is not a surprise; Kali is such a huge system that it has to look at things generally. That's the only way to describe it. Aikido, in contrast, is more specialized, but works what it does work on to death. And that's ok. Everything has something to offer; I approach Aikido with no expectations except to see where it leads me.

I love both arts and I like practicing both arts; I like and respect both my teachers. If someone asks me a question related to Kali, I'll answer it to the best of my ability, not because I think Kali is better, but because I know something about it (and at this point, know it a bit better than Aikido). I should after all this time. Yet I am content with Aikido as I find it. No, it doesn't look like the Aikido class covers kickboxing combinations or shoots. So what? As I said before, I'm not going to Aikdo for what the don't teach. Nor do I care if Aikido never "pops out" while sparring in Kali; there are any number of reasons why that wouldn't happen. Big deal. I'm working to compartmentalize the arts I'm doing anyway. I want to find out what Aikido does teach and see what I get out of it. The question of which one can beat the other never comes to mind.

Kevin Leavitt
07-23-2005, 03:53 AM
last few post make some very reasonable, relevant, and good comments!

Agree with you Jay. Also, Mike good comments!

Charles Hill
07-23-2005, 07:49 AM
I read in Mark Wiley's book on the martial arts of the Philippines that the old masters were all extremely religious and believed that whatever God sent their way must have some positive reason, no matter how bad it looked. This provided them with a large amount of fearlessness. Sounded like O'Sensei to me. Maybe the two arts are similiar in the aspects that count.

Charles

CNYMike
07-23-2005, 11:02 AM
Uh, yeah, but...can they defend against a banana?

RT (inquiring minds want to know...) :)

Yes; it is a simple three step:

1. Uke charges at nage with banana.

2. Nage shoots uke dead with handgun. (He's coming at you with a banana; that's self defense that is!)

3. Nage eats banana.

Hope this helps. :D

rulemaker
07-23-2005, 11:46 AM
As a practitioner of both martial arts I believe that each one complements each other. My training in Kali/Arnis has enhanced my speed, reaction time, perception and timing in my aikido practice.
Similarly, my training in aikido have opened up several possibilites in disarming an attacker with sticks using aikido techniques. Kotegaeshi for one is very effective in disarming an Arnisador. During our arnis practice, when we do Tapi Tapi, or counter for counter (both persons have stick/s) we have found opportunities to apply nikkyo, kotegaeshi, iriminage, and other aikido techniques. Even my arnis master is amused that we were able to do a lot of disarming techniques using aikido.

I also agree with most observations that it is very difficult to disarm one with sticks when you are empty-handed. You should expect to be hit more than once before you can disarm him. But if he is brandishing a bladed weapon like Kris or Kampilan I suggest that we RUN.

Charles,

The fearlessness of the old kali/arnis masters can also be attributed to a mystical belief in an amulet or anting-anting, a pendant worn by them when they go into battle that sort of make them invincible. Saw one on ebay today:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7338524508&category=357&rd=1

Those who are interested to know more about the bladed weapons used by kali/arnis masters should read the book by Robert Cato "Moro Swords", this is a rare book on Filipino Muslim edged weapons around like the barung, the kampilan, and the kris . This is out of print already and a collectors item. Ebay has one on auction right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4564165627&category=378&rd=1


Thanks!

Rommel
Aikido Philipppines
www.otsotiros.tk

Adam Alexander
07-23-2005, 01:42 PM
1)I'm sure that ideally Aikido has a counter for anything I could throw at you. That's not the point of this thread.

2)We don't need Aikido cheerleaders to keep up our Aikido morale. We would all hate for this forum to be to Aikido what Bullshido is to MMA and BJJ. If it's not AIKIDO, it's CRAP! ;)

1)To me, the question "Aikido vs. Whatever" is that question. You can't say "How does Aikido do against Whatever" without laying out every technique in each's arsenal...If you don't do that, the question can only be asked "how does this Aikidoka do against that Whateverdoka?" In that case, it's no longer a case of art vs. art, but of practitioner vs. practitioner...which is VASTLY different than the original question...the question initially asked...the question I'm answering.

2)Agreed. We don't need cheerleaders, we need people who have a better understanding of the art answering these sorts of questions...not the folks who practice a few techniques that are within the reportoire of Aikido and then think they know something about it.


Yeah, well, somebody missed something

Yeah, no kidding. Seems like everytime I have an exchange with him, he's missing something.

DustinAcuff
07-23-2005, 06:30 PM
I tend to agree that this is better off as an exploration rather than a blow by blow encounter. In the blow by blow you are playing with 'what if' and while everything said is true, it may not actually work out that way in reality. Kinda like that time during randori when you wanted to do rokkyo every time to reinforce it but instead did kote gaeshi five times in a row flawlessly.

I'm curious, what is the foot work in kali like? Do they take small movements and sidestep alot? Do they attack linearly, do they attack at all or do you just run into it? Do they hold their center well and keep good mobility?

aikigirl10
07-23-2005, 06:47 PM
Hey,

In my other MA shaolin, we use about a million different weapons styles. Once i was at a test for my blue belt and there was also a guy there testing for his black belt. Well, one of the things he had to demonstrate was weapons sparring. Well of course he picked the most obvious weapon, double broad swords. His opponent (another black belt) picked about the least likely, the bo staff.Everyone of course had their money on the broad swords. Well as it turns out the guy with the bo won.

It just goes to show that you never know how it will turn out. A person with a jo may easily beat escrima sticks and then again he may not. Like the stated above , weirder things have happened.

-paige

CNYMike
07-24-2005, 01:08 AM
1)To me, the question "Aikido vs. Whatever" is that question. You can't say "How does Aikido do against Whatever" without laying out every technique in each's arsenal...If you don't do that, the question can only be asked "how does this Aikidoka do against that Whateverdoka?" In that case, it's no longer a case of art vs. art, but of practitioner vs. practitioner...which is VASTLY different than the original question...the question initially asked...the question I'm answering.


Laying out all the technques I know from Kali would probably fill a book, and thanx to the nature of joint locking, the grappling system, Dumog, shares a lot with Aikido. Crosstraining is simpler, really.



2)Agreed. We don't need cheerleaders, we need people who have a better understanding of the art answering these sorts of questions...not the folks who practice a few techniques that are within the reportoire of Aikido and then think they know something about it.


Y'know, I'll be the first to admit that after going to Aikido once a week for about a year and a quarter -- so we're talking ~50 practice hours -- I'm still new to it. But I think I've seen more than "a few" techniques. Not all of them, but a respectable number.



Yeah, no kidding. Seems like everytime I have an exchange with him, he's missing something.

:grr: :mad: :grr: :mad: And what did I miss this time!?!?!? Let's review:

1. Dustin posted a query about what to do against an attack by an FMA person with either two knives or two sticks.

2. I replied to his query with a desription of the challenges an Aikidoka would face in that situation, including the fact that the tip of the stick would be moving between 120 and 200 mph. This "minor detail" affects his choice of techniques.

3. You famously replied to that with something about how in Aikido, we don't worry about the tip of the weapon.

4. I backed up my previous comment.

5. You told me not to get wrapped up on terminology.

So, tell me, Jean, what did I miss? I not responded to the original post but backed myself up, being pretty well on target. Please, spell it out for me. I really want to know. Please, elucidate for me.

BTW, I don't think the cheerleader remarked referred to me or Kevin or anyone else you've been debating with. Think about it.

CNYMike
07-24-2005, 01:24 AM
I'm curious, what is the foot work in kali like? Do they take small movements and sidestep alot? Do they attack linearly, do they attack at all or do you just run into it? Do they hold their center well and keep good mobility?

The short version is that in LaCoste Inosanto Kali, footwork is organized into "triangle steps." Female triangle is basically forward at about ~45 degree angle, sometimes more, sometimes less. Male triange -- basically -- is back at a 45 degree angle. If this reminds you of some footwork in Aikido, you're right; I told you Kali is general. Then there are the lateral traingles where you basically step forward or back.

Which type of step you use depnds on what the situaiton is, but one newly minted Kali instructor who's now in Minnesota said that eventually you see little triangles all over the floor. Then there are the questions of the lengths of the step and whether your weight is forward or back.

That's the short version.

For the long version, you'd best be served by crosstraining in Kali. I know, you're reluctant to do that. But there is no short answer to any question about it; in the time it would take me to type an adequate reply, you could take a class in Kali, or at least a chunk of one. So you might as well take a class in Kali. I'm fairly certain someone who's affiliated with Guro Dan Inosanto won't have any problem with you doing Aiki* while doing Kali, and if you're sensei doesn't kick you out of your dojo for doing it, you'd be golden.

It's worth thinking about. I and the other FMA people here can give you all the tips in the world, and it would still fall short. If you're really intersted in/worried about FMA, there's only one way to really get a handle on it, and that's put your money down and start learning it.

Adam Alexander
07-24-2005, 05:14 PM
So, tell me, Jean, what did I miss?

#3 of your last post refers to the "tip of a sword." The point you missed was the second paragraph that that quote comes from. The "tip of the sword" is what I gather to be the way of saying what I said in the second paragraph...the "tip of the sword" respons demonstrated a misunderstanding of what I was saying.


Dustin,

Unless it's a "blow by blow" description, it's not an accurate response to the question "Aikido vs. Kali." It would be the answer to the question "Aikidoka vs. Kali practitioner."

CNYMike
07-24-2005, 08:41 PM
#3 of your last post refers to the "tip of a sword." The point you missed was the second paragraph that that quote comes from. The "tip of the sword" is what I gather to be the way of saying what I said in the second paragraph...the "tip of the sword" respons demonstrated a misunderstanding of what I was saying.


I went back to the famous second paragraph of post #23. Unfrotunately the fraction of second warning is all you'd have. Maybe less. And that assumes Aikidoka are the only ones who can catch such minisucle movements. But if you face a Kali person who can, then something Jun Fan people refer to as "progressive indirect attack" can enter the picture.

That the tip of the stick is moving at somewhere around 150 mph is important because you don't want it to hit you. You don't want your evasion to be on the line it's on; you won't outrun it. If you can prempt it somehow, great. But you should still be aware of what you're dealing with.

Adam Alexander
07-25-2005, 12:10 PM
You don't want your evasion to be on the line it's on; you won't outrun it. If you can prempt it somehow, great. But you should still be aware of what you're dealing with.

I think this is consistent with another thread going right now: In Aikido, we train in ALL types of body movements...because uke isn't holding a sword, knife, stick, what-have-you, doesn't mean there's any difference.

Regarding "not being on the line": Agreed. But, that's with every Aikido technique I've seen...we're never trying to out-run the weapon.

These reasons are why we, as Aikidoka do not need to concern ourselves with "how do I defend against....." Aikido has the answers...You just need to seek out someone who truly understands the principals to explain them...or examine them closely....I don't know.

Kevin Leavitt
07-25-2005, 02:40 PM
It seems to me to be pretty simple. You stand there in your best kamae...take all the time you need to collect yourself and prepare. Michael you grab your best bambo escrima sticks and start to swing. Empirical evidence would seem to hold the answers.

Jay Mills
07-25-2005, 04:14 PM
There is only one way to find out how Aikido does against a skilled Eskrimador, kali man, or any other systen or experience level, and thats TEST IT OUT UNDER LIVE CONDITIONS!!! This is what we do with JKD Concepts, Its about being honest, about improving our martial efficiency in REAL situations! Try it out, not just once but over and over against many types of opponents, situations etc See what does and does not work under these conditions, then you can speak from experience instead of theoretical blabbing! In our group, If someone says something contrary to the way we believe, we first examine that comment to see if they are correct, we then test it out and see what type of consistent results we get over time! We use a scientific appraoch, we do not fall back on the "my stuff works but yours doesnt" line! If we say something works, it means we have tested it over and over in full contact LIVE conditions, against resisting opponents from different styles and experience levels, we are constantly evolving, THERE IS NO END!!! Practice fighting against someone who is fighting you back, trying NOT to let you pull off what you are trying to do! This is the only way you are going to see what works! Forget about what your teacher says, what the old guy with the long white beard says, what you have or have not heard etc, get in there an get it on for yourself, THATS how you find the truth! Like Kevin said, its really that simple!

Adam Alexander
07-25-2005, 04:32 PM
Yeah right. You guys are something else. So, because a person who's aware of the theory fails to demonstrate it effectively, the theory is wrong...Right. Right. And the world was flat until PROVED (LOL) otherwise.

Get real. What you guys are proposing is how a specific practitioner of an art does against a certain practitioner of a different art.

NEWSFLASH: That doesn't say anything specific about each art...it only says something about the the practitioners in the challenge.

Come on. Get with it.

CNYMike
07-25-2005, 08:41 PM
.... Regarding "not being on the line": Agreed. But, that's with every Aikido technique I've seen...we're never trying to out-run the weapon.... .

Well let me put it this way:

When two kali people, each with a stick in their right hand, are at a longer range, meaning you can tag the other person's hand with the tip of your stick but not hit his body, if uke feeds a yokomenuchi, nage shouldn't retreat back at a 45 degree angle to his right. He would be on the same line the stick is traveling at. With the stick going at 150 mph, you will not retreat fast enough. Better go back at a 45 degree angle to your left and let the other stick go past.

However, if our two Kali people are close enough that they can't hit each other's bodies with their stick, and maybe punch and kick, too, then going back to the left is stupid becaue then you can run into the stick. So your best bet is forward at a 45 degree angle; if you go to the left, into the path of the stick, you can use a block called cambioda (sp) or cadeno real (sp again) to "bridge under it." So in Aikido terms, you'd want to do an irimi to your right, then follow up by whatever you want to do. See now?

Kali also has the same idea of applying the same principle against different attacks. That's why they worry about defending against the angle instead of the specific attack. But you still have to be cognisant of certain structures and guidlines as I outlined above, because the rules change depending on where you are.

CNYMike
07-25-2005, 09:14 PM
Dear Jean, Kevin, Jay, et al,

With all due respect,

When I wrote post #48 ( http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112594&postcount=48 ), it was aimed at all of you. Not just one side or the other but EVERYBODY./

In case anyone has forgot, I have been doing LaCoste Inosanto Kali -- part of the JKD Concepts world if I'm not mistaken -- continously since 1998, after first taking the class during the sumer of 1997. I have also been doing Aikikai Aikido -- that's right, the no sparring/randori cooperative practice type of Aikido -- since last year. And I am cool with Aikido just the way it is, in part from years of my Kali instructors attitude that is respectful to all arts. ALL of them. In fact, Guro Kevin Seaman had it on a plague on the wall of his academy: "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems, for they all have something to offer." Note that there are no exceptions to that rule, like Aikido or traditional karate or what have you. As a matter of fact, for six years, I would regularly go into East West Martial arts for open training -- members could use the facility any time during business hours as long as you didn't disturb any classes that were in session -- and practice tradtitional kata and no one said anything to me about it. Yes, it was a den of avowed kata haters, no question. But they let me practice what I wanted to practice. In fact, in one class Guro Kevin was lecturing on the need to practice and noted, "Some people whine, 'I don't want to practice my kata.' Mr. Gallagher does his forms every day." (Actually it was every other day at the time, and now barely once a week considering all I'm doing, but I digress.) The live-and-let-live attitude they displayed towards all arts is one of the things I bring into Aikido class from Kali. As I have said over and over again, I am not there for what Larry Bieri Sensei doesn't teach; Guro Andy has all that covered. I am there for what he does teach. I don't feel a Kali v. Aikido conflict within myself, and I don't judge one against the other. So it pains me -- actually, it's starting to piss me off -- to come to Aikiweb and see people going at it tooth and nail over which is better. I don't pull that crap on the Aikido people I train with, including Sensei (and if I did, not only would the Aikidoka not like me but I would lose points with Guro Andy, who takes respect very seriously); none of them get in my face about how they can handle anything because they are supposedly "dedicated" to Aikido and I'm not. Why is it ok on Aikiweb!?

I wouldn't mind if this thread died right now. Dustin started it because of some concerns he had, and if they haven't been addressed, he'll let us know. But arguing about Kali v. Aikido, especially since everyone here does Aikido, is a load of bantha pudu if you ask me. I think it should stop; it represents feelings I don't have and I don't like it. Can't we all just get along? (Which is also what Aikido is all about, too.)

With Respect,

Michael J. Gallagher

P.S. Kevin, I'm pretty certain that if I started swinging an Olisi at Jean, she wouldn't just stand there in hanmi and take it. She'd move. Whether that would be enough, I don't know. But assuming she'd just stand there and get the crap beaten out of her is fallicious.

Jay Mills
07-25-2005, 10:26 PM
What good is a theory if it cannot consistantly be appiled under live conditions with resisting opponents of different systems and experience levels! Sounds to me like your the one who needs to get real! As far as the world being proved flat, thats true, it was PROVED, people found REALITY through exploration!

For the record, i dont care about what art you practice, style means very little to me anymore! What im talking about is absorbing what is useful for a violent encounter, what will work over and over no matter who you are or what your experience level!
If a kid with a red magic marker can mark up men with 10, 15, 20 years experience in aikido, then imagine what a really skilled knife fighter could do! This boy WASNT a better martial artist than the men with many years experience! What happened was reality, what happened was the men held so tightly to a set way of thinking that they didnt know what to do when things changed! They couldnt work fast enough against something they hadnt trained for, its not rocket science! You know something, even the aikido people agreed after experiencing this first hand! They were not so closed minded that they couldnt learn something new, even after so many years of training, they emptied their cups!

Michael, your right, sometimes i forget whats important and get drawn into such discussions, thank you for reminding me!
I also apologize to everyone for this and will no longer continue after this post! It never ceases to amaze me how people argue over style! Like someone once said, let style be gone, then you may float confortably in the moment!

DustinAcuff
07-26-2005, 12:01 AM
The getting off of the line thingy does not refer to the energy given/attack (as I understand it) it refers to the movement of uke's center. Fact is it is impossible to attack from a circle, and I would venture that it is highly unlikely for a line to beat a circle. Any technique in which there is energy given (including atemi waza) creates a line and breaks the circle. The movement of the limbs is relatively unimportant. This is why I ask about the footwork. Escrima, despite anything else operates on a line. The sticks create circles and arcs, but the center stays on that line. The biggest difficulty I was having in understanding the FMAs and how to irimi had to do with the implications of making entrance into two speeding sticks that are taking up the slack of one another. The reason here being that unless Mr.Kali is going to go full force and try to take my head off with them dern sticks is that my initial entrance would be made on line and his footwork would be most likely on a circle if sidestepping was a commonly used method of evasion. Either way, I "attacked" on a line and if he simply backs up then it is me vs. sticks again or if he sidesteps me I become flanked with 100 mph rattan raining on my body.

Conclusively, my origional delema as to how the ^*$# (fill in favorite adjective that denotes frustration) do you make entrance on these people is still relatively unanswered. The best idea so far is use a longer stick or just right down the center hoping for the best, neither one of which insured. One stick is not as much of an issue. Possibly apply physics and go to the fulcrum (hands or elbows) where the speed is highest but the ammount of force is almost zero.

Jean, you were completely correct in your comment about the tip-o-the-sword. I disagree that my intent was to say kali technique X vs. aiki technique X. Frankly I don't care. Under the right conditions anything that they throw at me I can simply counter. No ammount of text is going to raise my ability one bit simply because I am playing with the full deck of cards and his hand too. Rather I intended this as a discussion on the theory level of how can the mechanics of Aiki beat the mechanics of kali in a situation where nage is unarmed but uke is a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks or other weapons. Where are the gaps, do the arms ever cross, where is the point of least mobility and slowest motion, etc.?

Mike, I respect your experience. Your views have given some good insights and good advice. I would be training vs kali atm, but no one near me has any. Those sticks, knives, newspapers, cellphones or whatever the heck are the gatekeepers, not the treasure. You seem a bit too focused on the sticks and stick movements. I am looking for a simple and concise nutshell of what the real root in kali is. The triangles are probably the single best bit of information I have seen.

Jay, I agree that unless you have faced it you don't need to be trying to dissect it on theory alone, but given the circumstances, this is what I have. This is just about the only MA I don't know anyone who has faced it in reality before. To be fair, what guidelines would you suggest for such an experiment? Armor, no armor? Sticks, blades, newspaper, magic markers? What about the practitioner? Master? Student? Weekend warrior? And what set of rules to establish anything conclusively? Go till death? Knockout? Timed? And what if I lose? Should I send a friend in next? What if Mr. Kali loses? Should we go to someone else or switch weapons? Also wouldn't live blades be the best choice so that one can gauge the legnth, depth, and deep target aquisition?

I fully agree in getting some cold hard facts, but in this case I don't think that going out and challenging random FMAist to a duel is going to benefit me in the least. If I catch him he is enough of a danger that I have to break him to prevent any retaliatory bodily harm to myself, and if I do not catch him the speed of those sticks alone will do ugly things to bones. In this case I would be served just as well in trying fire-arms defense with live rounds. And thank you but no on that one.

This thread has done better than I expected and yielded alot of good views and information. I know first choice is to train with these people and find out first hand. I also know that should I ever find myself in this situation that my best bet is either running or begging for mercy until I have an opening to end it or run. Lots of good point have been raised and I have learned alot and had to look up a good bit of the stuff I didn't know.

Some miscommunications have been made all over this place, but I as master of this thread (under Jun) suggest that we see if we can find a way to conclusively crack this escrima nut. I hope I have cleared up my intentions and some miscomceptions concerning my post and what I hoped to gain from it. Lets get to it people! This thread has plenty more life in it before it dies!

Thanks alot everyone,
Dustin

CNYMike
07-26-2005, 12:43 AM
..... The biggest difficulty I was having in understanding the FMAs and how to irimi had to do with the implications of making entrance into two speeding sticks that are taking up the slack of one another ..... my origional delema as to how the ^*$# (fill in favorite adjective that denotes frustration) do you make entrance on these people is still relatively unanswered .....

Dustin, I've been doing Kali for a long time, and I have never done empty hand disarms against double stick. Not yet, anyway. Double stick is usally done against double stick.

That said, my best guest, extrapolating from espada y daga (sword and dagger) practice is to concentrate on one weapon on a time. I have yet to see a double stick drill in which both sticks hammer on you at the same time; it's always one then the other (hopefully -- I just remembered a figure 8 drill that breaks that rule, but it's done as a solo coordination drill; the sinawali and sombrada drills assume one at a time). So you deal with one at a time. For example, if you can get a good ikkyo on his right arm, it should be difficult if not impossible for him to bring the other one to bear. Also remember to follow up, either with a throw, submission, or strikes after you have done the disarms. Double knives present the same issue and involve the same strategy, one at a time, although the stakes are higher because the knife is so lethal. (And I should add I have NEVER done double knife.)

Having said all that, I doubt this is something you will realistically have to worry about in the USA in the year of our lord 2005. I've never been to Stockton, so I don't know, maybe there really gangs of arnissadors walking around with pairs of sticks looking for victoms. I sort of doubt it. Again, check with local law enfrocement and EMTs in the areas you're concerned about and see how often this happens, if ever; yeah, they'll mention stabbings, but I wouldn't use that as an index of the number of FMA people. If all else fails, you can crosstrain in Kali to get a better idea of what "those people" are about.

Mike

CNYMike
07-26-2005, 12:58 AM
Sorry about the second post; didn't see this:

.... I am looking for a simple and concise nutshell of what the real root in kali is. The triangles are probably the single best bit of information I have seen .....

If there's one buzzword in Kali it's "flow," meaning that most important training vehicles are continous drills, armed and unarmed, that cycle on and on through a series of patterns to teach you things you need to know. Yes, there are plenty of times when you stop and train just like in Aikido -- one person "attacks" and the other responds. Done it all the time. But you also do a lot of flow drills. There were plenty of nights back at the old east weat where Guro Kevin Seaman would just start us on 5-count sombrada with singel stick ... then double stick ... then stick and dagger .... and a few more changes in implements .... and then the next thing you know, an hour and a half has gone by and it's time to bow out of class and go home!

Beyond that, I'm sorry to say Kali doesn't fit in a nutshell .... unless the nutshell is the size of the Empire State Building! There is just so much material, it's not funny. At East West, they used to say Thai Boxing was the hardest thing you can do to your body and Kali was the hardest thing you could do to your mind. Guess which art Guro Kevin had the most instructors in? You guessed it, Thai Boxing. It may be murder on you, but the techniques boiled down to kicks, punches, knees, elbows, and related defenses -- done. Kali has a million times as much info and can seem complicated even when it's simple. So fewer people stuck with it to the point of being instructors. (Jun Fan/JKD was somewhere in the middle.)

You want concise, I'll give you concise: Kali starts with the sticks, but is really about everything; you name it, they got it. Including all the things Aikidoka like to do. Plus. Plus plus plus plus plus plus plus .... you get the idea.

Hope that's not more helpful than it is depressing.

Jay Mills
07-26-2005, 03:09 AM
"To be fair, what guidelines would you suggest for such an experiment? Armor, no armor? Sticks, blades, newspaper, magic markers? What about the practitioner? Master? Student? Weekend warrior? And what set of rules to establish anything conclusively? Go till death? Knockout? Timed? And what if I lose? Should I send a friend in next? What if Mr. Kali loses? Should we go to someone else or switch weapons? Also wouldn't live blades be the best choice so that one can gauge the legnth, depth, and deep target aquisition?"


IMHO i would suggest no armor, its the most realistic in terms of aliveness, you dont get lazy and make attempts that can painfully cost you the same way people do when they are covered in pads! The responses are much different when you go fullspeed no pads! That being said, its not for everyone, not many people really wanna do it!. My second choice would be minimal armor (helmet, hockey gloves, knee and elbow pads) Lots of guys use Lacrosse gear too!

Type of weapon, i would use ratten, second choice would be "SMAK Sticks", best training sticks out there, as realistic as you can get without using the real thing! I would also use "No Lie" blades, second choice would be magic markers if you dont want to pay the price for chalked training blades!

As for what type of practitioner, any and all you could get to work with you, the more the better! I would find any way i could to be able to crosstrain with a student, weekend warrior, or master! I will list several websites at the bottom of this post, you will be able to contact many members on here that would be willing to work with you, they are always looking for people to train with!

Rules, what rules, you go until one of you gives up, rest a minute, then do it again! Or make up your own rules, whatever is fun, the main thing is to keep it alive, have no prearrangements, use fullspeed, and full contact! Use all the ranges, kicking, punching, trapping, grappling, ground etc. If you loose a stick or a blade it is lost unless you can regain it, just like in real life! The whole idea of this is to practice against someone who is fighting you back with stick, blade or empty hand in all the ranges! I would say the game stops and you restart if you get a vital shot with a blade/marker etc (throat, heart, lungs, liver, kidney, abdominal aorta etc) other than that you can just see how cut up the rest of your body would be had it been for real!

Your question about if you loose, well thats up to you! I would continue to practice as much as i could with as many different people, systems etc as i could, as long as its under live conditions! If the kali man looses, then same thing, continue to practice with different ones, see if you get consistant results over time against varied people of different experience levels. When you find out that you have consistantly been able to apply your technique under pressure against all types of players then i would say you know what works for you in a live enviroment!

As far as using live blades, we do this but its for more of the balance, feel, and awareness aspects of training. If you want you can wrap a live blade with duct tape to get the feel until you feel confortable with it. As far as length, depth, and deep target aquisition, its not a problem with a good blade.

Heres is a good site as far as information, discussion, instruction, videos etc The instructors are very good about answering all of your questions! Check out the "knife vs empty hand" thread!

www.jkdunlimited.com

Burton Richardson of JKD Unlimited is comming out with a Battlefield Kali series this month. You can actually train through the videos and test, just as with any of Burtons material. Burt is one of Dan Inosantos students, he was a former Dog Brother who trained with Eric Knauss. He also trained with Tony Diego, Topher Ricketts, Edgar Sulite, and learned Zulu stick fighting in Africa. He has instructorship under Guru Dan Inosanto as well as Grand Master Ilustrisimo of Kali Ilustrisimo, a legend!

Here are some other links of interest, Bakbakan is probly the most comprehensive and informative site on the net concerning FMA

www.bakbakan.com
www.dogbrothers.com
www.sayoc.com

Again, go onto any of these sites, ask your question or search the threads, it has probly already been asked!, Most of these guys an gals have trained or currently train in other arts and will welcome you whole heartedly! I promise you that you will be able to find many many many people willing to work with you from all over the country! There is someone in about every town and city it seems, you just have to post and ask!

Best of luck in your journey, it will be a great one!

Adam Alexander
07-26-2005, 12:23 PM
What good is a theory if it cannot consistantly be appiled under live conditions

It can be applied.

Adam Alexander
07-26-2005, 12:28 PM
1)my origional delema as to how the ^*$# (fill in favorite adjective that denotes frustration) do you make entrance on these people is still relatively unanswered.

2)Rather I intended this as a discussion on the theory level of how can the mechanics of Aiki beat the mechanics of kali in a situation where nage is unarmed but uke is a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks or other weapons.

1)I've answered it: There's physical cues. Training will teach you how to recognize them.

2)I know. That's the question "art vs. art." It's an impossible question to answer. You can only say "technique vs. technique."


Master, eh?

Kevin Leavitt
07-26-2005, 02:29 PM
Michael,

I hope I didn't fall prey to the aikido versus kali arguement! My intent is not to say one is better than the other by any means.

In fact, just the opposite.

My position is (and Jean even brings it up!) art against art is really very stupid. However, the question was an empty hand aikido reponse to a kali response. It is simple in my book...all theory aside sticks beat hands pretty much most of the time.

If you look back and read my post, hopefully you will find that I am pragmatic and realistic in my approach...I try to inject common sense versus theory into the mix.

Again as Jean points out, there is no pure art against art reality fight...only two fighters that bring themselves and everything they have ever learned to the table. It becomes two fighters not two styles after the first technique is thrown.

So why limit yourself to the context of a narrow view of style? If I a attacked by sticks...I find sticks or some other advantage.

To answer Dustin's question: Go to www.dogbrothers.com and watch some of the videos. You will see what happens when one stick fighter fails. They move in to the clinch. You cannot outrun sticks so you enter. To be quite honest, irimi works fairly well!

You will pretty much get your ass kicked, but again, (not meant to antagonize Jean :)) you will find that ground fighting/grappling will keep you in close and keep you from losing contact in reality. AIkido has many wonderful techniques that work well..irimi nage, katienage, sankyo etc. However, in an adrenalin rush and the significant emotional event that will ensure getting beat about 10 times as you enter...you will probably find yourself with bad aiki form which will resemble grappling! :)

Adam Alexander
07-26-2005, 02:56 PM
Very nice post.

DustinAcuff
07-26-2005, 04:50 PM
I think that art vs. art is a perfectly valid question. It cannot be conclusive, but I am not tryng to be conclusive, I am trying to learn everything I can about another art since I don't have the ability to train with some people locally at the moment.

As Kevin mentioned what really happens is it boils down to me vs. you with everything either of us have ever learned on the table. I realize this. If stick A is above uke's head and stick B is coming at me at a 40 degree angle traveling approx 100 mph coming through an arc with a four foot axis with a 30 inch displacement step made by the opposing leg, and it will take approx 7/10ths of a second to make the arc with a total distance of 10 feet covered at the tip of the stick and uke was origionally moving .12m/sec with a speed increase to 1m/s over .8 seconds time and started 52 inches from me, then I have X seconds to react after you figure the .5 sec it will take for the view to travel to my brain and my brain to initiate a respone where it takes my hand .2 seconds to intercept uke's stick B hand at the wrist and another .1 sec to initiate full kuzushi before going into a ura ikkyo.

There are too many variables for that to be conclusive. I realize this too. I mean what are the chinks in the armor? Do they very school to school or do they remain pretty consistent? Is the weight normally on the back foot or the front? What is the split? Dose it vary? Do the arms ever cross? Do they train kind of hunched over like Muai Thai or do they train upright in natural posture? What are their targets? What is the mentality? I seriously doubt that I am ever going to face one of these people, let alone wielding sticks, but what kind of weapons can I expect to face? Do these people normally carry pocket knives? What kind of weapons of opportunity would likely be choice? Could I expect a pool cue rather than a rolled up newspaper? What kind of distance are these guys proficient at? Are the majority of these people lifelong martial artists who have trained multiple styles or are they weekend warriors? Do skilled practitioners have a certian look about them?

At the moment I can break down a number of these arts this way. In many aspects and areas the answer will be the entire spectrum, but some parts are distinct. Like Aikidoka tend to keep their weight foward, have prior martial arts experience, generally striking arts, have basic weapons training but in traditional weapons rather than weapons of opportunity and so I would be more likely to face a broom or pool cue than someone wielding a beer bottle or a pen. Aikidoka are also less likely to develope a really agressive mentality since it is frowned upon in most schools, and despite being taught atemi most aikidoka are not taught to strike with real power or sincerity unlike karate or boxing, and most would likely be overcome by a controlled progressive rush with little comitment of energy. I can do the same thing for TKD, BJJ, and Muai Thai on the theory level.

I realize that everyone has a diffrent bag of tricks and diffrent skills and experience. Like I have been taught without ma ai or atemi, but i have been taught weapons of opportunity, working in the grappling range and ground fighting. I am not someone who really expects that this is going to happen, but I know enough EMS people who have been held at gunpoint by a patient or patients X to have a real intrest in gun defense. Same thing here. What is the psychology, what makes the art tick? In Aiki it is where is uke's center going and what position is his spine in. What can you expect from random practitioner X? I am just looking for a basic profile of the art. I realize that as an art that will vary alot from A to B but there have got to be some mechanics that are universal or it would not be called an art nor would there be orginizations.

Thanks alot for the extra sites and video links, they have helped alot, but as far as I am concerned my question still stands.

Jay Mills
07-26-2005, 08:08 PM
Dustin, do like i said and go to the sites and post on the forums, there are so many people more knowledgeable about the FMAs there! They will be able to answer your question in a more detailed manner wich i think is what your wanting! You will also be able to find people close to you that can show you first hand if thats what your looking for! Dont say there is not a way to find this out, its just doing the work!

Jean, your right, i stand corrected! Im sure the tecniques can be applied "consistantly" in a step by step non resistant manner when you know its comming in the confort of your own dojo! What i am suggesting is you get outside that confort zone and experience more than what you are seeing in an aikido school nmindset, thats all.

Kevin Leavitt
07-27-2005, 05:22 PM
Jean,

Do you see a common theme that several people here are telling you? Get out of the "aikido is the end all and be all" mentality, and see what other things are out there! You will be amazed at both how well you have learned aikido, and how much you still have to learn. AND how much other training methodologies can teach you to improve your strategies!

If you goal is simply to follow the Way of AIKI (AIKIDO)..then no need to go outside of aikido. However once you start the "this versus that" argument...then that is a whole nother matter!

I really wish I could get with you and be able to show you the things I mean! I have learned more in the past two years about myself and aikido from studying other arts!

DustinAcuff
07-28-2005, 12:07 AM
Just watched the DB vids. Intresting stuff. Not terribly inpressed that it is so UFC with sticks looking but I can't deny it would do some serious damage if these guys weren't holding back. I see the point about it being hard to describe though. It really is the person who makes the art.

I have been thinking alot about what makes what I have seen work, and I have to say I agree with all the crosstraining people suddenly. I disagree on a number of points and think that the techniques work just fine on their own, but that since MA training is no longer a lifelong full time commitment starting when you are 12 and ending when you die I can see where it is necessary. I also just realized that neither O Sensei nor Takeda Sokaku trained in only Aikido or Daito respectively, and that their skills were synergisticly enhanced by training in the sword and spear and whatever the heck else they trained in.

So now I am curious, what have you taken away from Aikido?

Jay Mills
07-28-2005, 02:32 AM
Dustin, i know exactly what your talking about when you say you were kind of disappointed with things looking so UFC. When i began martial arts some 25 years ago, i had this picture in my mind about how i thought things should be, how they should look, and how they should work. Well oneday i saw my teacher in an actual fight, it blew my mind, i was so pissed off, almost even ashamed! He used nothing that we practiced in class, besides front kicks, round kicks, jabs, crosses, and elbows. There was nothing i could even tell was practiced technique, and definatly no defense or cool locks and throws! I guess i wanted this stuff to be special, kind of magic like! I was very disappointed, actually kind of still have that feeling sometimes when i watch certain things! I wanted the stories of the old masters and all the incredible feats they could acomplish to be true, i wanted to be inspired! Well that began my search, i went through all kinds of styles, all kinds of systems. I trained with many people, all the way from Mr Miyagi types, to some real badass combat vets. What i noticed in all of my classes, or even outside of class was a common theme. When you increase the speed, get rid of the prearranged step by step movements, go full contact with someone totally resisting you, it becomes impossible to consistantly make things look as pretty and as efficient as i had seen time and again in all of the different places i had trained! I dont care who it was doing it, studernt, master, it didnt matter, it ALWAYS ended up looking like a street fight or UFC type fight you see these days! Things just dont happen the way they do in the training hall all the time! Thats why IMHO it is more important to train your attributes instead of working over and over again on prearranged step by step movement! Real combat is just too alive, the reason UFC, Dog Brothers, and or other MMA type events (including a martial artist, soldier etc against a real attacker) look so wild, almost sloppy at times, is because you just cant always pull off those smooth looking techniques as easily under true pressure! It is so very difficult to look good when your suprised, tired, off balance, in a crowded place, or just have someone comming at you with real intent! Things just never seem to look as pretty as they do at the training hall! If any of you have ever been in a really violent encounter, street situation, combat etc, you will get what i am saying. Can you remember the feeling, the speed of things, the contact, the unpredictability, the pain response, the adrenaline, was it a very different feeling from the Monday Wedsday Friday dojo classes your used to? Its that way for a reason, because its alive, because you dont train that way, its a totally new experience! Its like you hitting a boxer then a boxer hitting you, the boxer trains getting hit hard all the time, their bodies become acustomed to punishment because thats how they practice! Same goes for the street or real combat, your playing in a different enviroment and your stuff is going to look different, feel different, and many times have different results! Believe me, i want my stuff to look cool and always be as effective as i see in the movies or how i heard the old masters did it! I want that special kind of magical hidden technique that always trumps the untrained attacker, but it just doesnt always look or work that way for real! Most times in a real encounter you dont come away looking pretty at all! Bruce Lee once said that none of this stuff is special at all, it is simply an expression of who you are and what your doing at the time, so dont fuss over it! I guess that made me start seeing martial arts in a new light! Now when i see things look nice and pretty, working over and over again in a certain setting, i know why, i also know why they sometimes look wild, out of control, sometimes sloppy, and not as pretty as they should! I say whatever works use it! If it helps you take care of yourself and your loved ones, do it, no matter how it looks or what name its called by!

Kevin Leavitt
07-28-2005, 04:27 AM
Good post Jay. You makes some great observations.

I practice "reality" based UFC type stuff. We do spend a fair amount of time training at full speed, (40%) of the time. But we still spend around 60% of the time practicing slow, methodical, good posture good form.

Those things still apply and failure to develop "good habits", will get you into trouble and affect your skill as a good fighter.

The thing is you have to balance it out. You are right, if you don't practice full speed, your game will fall apart when you most need it. It isn't all about reinforcing bad habits and developing poor technique, but rather discovering the gaps in your muscle memory and brain when things are stressful.

Adam Alexander
07-28-2005, 12:27 PM
Jean,

1)Do you see a common theme that several people here are telling you?

2)However once you start the "this versus that" argument...then that is a whole nother matter!

1)Yeah, the right road isn't the beaten path; I don't think people really look too deep into these things.

2)Come on! I'm the guy who started a thread on how you can't compare art vs. art!...You can examine techniques in a situation and question what an art covers...but art vs. art is an unanswerable question (I think it has more to do with people wanting to feel good).


Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen.

Roy
07-28-2005, 02:05 PM
Sean wrote,

"Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen."

I'm starting to like your summarized post! You should always respond in this manner!

Lets all give three cheers for Sean, he might be getting the hint.

Dirk Hanss
07-28-2005, 06:55 PM
Sean wrote,

"Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen."

I'm starting to like your summarized post! You should always respond in this manner!

Lets all give three cheers for Sean, he might be getting the hint.

You might mean Jean. Then I join you :clap: :clap: :clap:

Dirk

CNYMike
07-28-2005, 08:54 PM
..... I have been thinking alot about what makes what I have seen work, and I have to say I agree with all the crosstraining people suddenly. I disagree on a number of points and think that the techniques work just fine on their own, but that since MA training is no longer a lifelong full time commitment starting when you are 12 and ending when you die I can see where it is necessary. I also just realized that neither O Sensei nor Takeda Sokaku trained in only Aikido or Daito respectively, and that their skills were synergisticly enhanced by training in the sword and spear and whatever the heck else they trained in.

So now I am curious, what have you taken away from Aikido?

That's a good question and a tough one to answer. For one thing, I've only been back at Aikido for a year; I'd pretty much forgot what we did in Seidokan Aikido, which did things differently anyway. In contrast, I've been doing Kali continuously for seven years now. For another, I am doing what Guro Andy suggests and working very hard to mentally compartmentalize the arts I'm practicing. So in Aikido, I do Aikido, nothing else, and in Kali, I do Kali. So if something from Aikido "creeps into" Kali, it's not because I want that to happen!

What Kali brings is a perspective on the martial arts that leaves me content with new things (or in the case of Aikido, an old thing I've come back to) as I find it. Everything has something to offer. That's why I'm ok with the non-competitive-"forms"-only-Aikikai-Aikido dojo I'm in. As I've said 100 times, I'm not going to Aikido to learn what they don't teach. I want to find out what they do teach, and see what, if anything, I get out of doing it over the long haul. To do anything else would be disrespectful, and my Kali teacher takes resepct very seriously. If you're not there to learn from the person at the head of the class, regardless of what it is, why are you there? And if you think that what you're doing stinks or is otherwise bad, wrong-headed, whatever, why are you doing it?

Hope that's clear.

CNYMike
07-28-2005, 09:08 PM
Just watched the DB vids. Intresting stuff. Not terribly inpressed that it is so UFC with sticks looking ......

Well, Kail covers all the ranges of combat, from long rang when you can barely tage the other person with your weapon, down to the ground. That covers the whole spectrum of possibilities. So some training looks "UFC-ish," but some does not. The goal is to have the tools for whatever range you find yourself at, whether standing up or on the ground.

Like I said, it start with sticks but is really about everything.

CNYMike
07-28-2005, 09:31 PM
1)Yeah, the right road isn't the beaten path; I don't think people really look too deep into these things....

In Best Aikido -- the Fundamentals, O Sensei is quoted as saying he'd practiced over 30 arts. He wasn't single-mindedly devoted to one systems, and as he developed Aikido, took a different path from Takeda Sensei. So how can the "beaten path" be the wrong one if it looks like he spend some time on it himself?

Adam Alexander
07-29-2005, 02:37 PM
Sean wrote,

"Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen."

I'm starting to like your summarized post! You should always respond in this manner!

Lets all give three cheers for Sean, he might be getting the hint.

Eh, if you could grasp the points of the others without the feelings of inadequacy blocking it, you'd probably like the others...you are the one who feels condescended? Right?


MIke Gallahger,

Ueshiba travelled many paths to build the right one. He did it so you don't have to.

Just my opinion. But, again, funny how all you sh*t talkers say I don't know what I'm talking about Aikido covering the full breadth of necessity, yet no-one has offered anything to counter that...oh, except for..."You're bragging." (this is where my eyes are rolling for those with feelings of self-doubt).

Jay Mills
07-29-2005, 04:20 PM
LMAO Way ta tell us Jean! Your right, we should all follow the path of Aikido without question, without stepping outside that box, or ever exposing ourselves to anything other than whats fed to us! What do all those other people in different arts know anyways, i think its just a bunch of punch drunk shit talkers that have never had a real fight in their life! Follow Jean, Aikido is best, Aikido is best, now drink this coolaid, your getting sleepy, your getting sleepy AIKIDO IS MY MASTER! :hypno: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Kevin Leavitt
07-29-2005, 04:35 PM
I don't really consider my self a talker. I'd love to come and train with you. I'll pit my skills up against any martial artist. I am not afraid to expose myself and my shortcomings, it is how I get better.

This is the only way to counter.

CNYMike
07-29-2005, 11:48 PM
..... funny how all you sh*t talkers.... .

Jean, if for some reason or other, you have a problem with the idea of people doing other arts in addition to Aikido, I'm sorry, but that in no way gives you the right to be insulting.

Like almost everyone here, I am training in Aikido. I was first exposed to it back in the '80s, and although I dropped out of that dojo after two years, I retained an interest in the art and got back into it last year. I was doing karate at the time I first took Aikido, and I am doing other arts now that I am continuing it. That experience has informed my opinions.

I don't take kindly to being told I am a "sh*t talker" because I have voiced my opinions, or being told I am not "dedictated" to Aikido because it's not the only art I do. If you have the moral authority of O Sensei's founding "the right path," why resort to insults?

You don't like crosstraining, fine, don't like it. You want to think Aikido can handle anything, fine, think that. There's anecodtal evidence of Aikido instructors handling attacks they have not formally trained against. But if you think for a moment that somehow makes you better than anyone else here, to the point where you can fling insults around, then buddy, you got another thing coming.

CNYMike
07-30-2005, 12:11 AM
.... Thanks alot for the extra sites and video links, they have helped alot, but as far as I am concerned my question still stands.

The problem is, your question is almost impossible to answer in any concise way. For example, imagine describing something like shomenuchi irimi nage over the phone to someone who had never heard of Aikido -- there are people like this -- but maybe had once done some Karate or TKD. I'm not talking about a brief description about what it is, but a detailed description of specific technques. Over the phone. To someone who has no clue. I'm sorry, but the short answer is there are no short answers. In fact, after seven years there's a ton of stuff I didn't know, and I've been training in Kali! So how much do you think you can get from an online forum?

In addition, I think you're worrying over nothing. Ok, I have never been west of Denver, much less to the LA area, so I don't know what the situaiton is out there. Nor did I appreciate until your post how risky things can be for an EMT person. But I think it is highly unlikely that the specific scenario you're worrying about has any chance of coming to pass. Guro Andy Astle keeps reiterating how rare martial artists are in our culture; it gets even worse when you realize that up to 90% of then people who start will quit inside a year. And some arts are rarer than other depending on how long they've been established. Statistically, you are more likely to have a run-in with a karate or TKD person than someone from a SE Asian system like Kali. Those immigrant guys teaching things in their basements probably teach family members, if anybody, and swear them to secrecy, and it's unlikely you'll run into them. In fract, Guro Andy was in the Philipines some years ago, and he said that most people did FMA in their back yards, but there were few schools in it; Karate and TKD dominated the scene over there. Heck, you're more likely to bump into AIKIDO people over there in all probabilty!

You want to worry about the hazzards of being an EMT person in LA, worry about the things they really face, not some imagined confrontation that may never happen. If that doesn't put your mind at ease, then as I said in another post, crosstraining in Kali is probably the best -- if not only -- way to get a handle on it. Yeah, I know, you like the idea slightly less than Jean does, but then you're the one worrying about being attacked by an FMA person. [ton of bricks] Either do something about it or don't let it bother you; pick one. [/ton of bricks]

Adam Alexander
07-30-2005, 02:22 PM
Mike Gallagher, Sorry about that. I intended to put a larger space between those paragraphs to signify that it wasn't necessarily directed at you.


Kevin, Not calling you a sh*t talker necessarily. Actually, when I use the phrase, it's more while laughing anyway.

As far as you being willing to put your stuff up against another, that still wouldn't say anything about BJJ or Aikido or anything else except your willingness. The things that you find out in those matches only tell you about where you're lacking...not where BJJ or Aikido are lacking.


I don't see anything wrong with saying,"I think Aikido lacks here or there." We've all got opinions. I'm just saying (this is going out to all who do this) if you're going to say it and it gets challenged, atleast answer the challenge and drop it. Or, don't answer the challenge and stop posting your opinions which you refuse to substantiate.

One note: LOL. As I write this, I fear I may be guilty of the same thing. Please, feel free to call me out.

DustinAcuff
07-30-2005, 06:05 PM
Okay, just a few quick things Mike:

1. Your last post was centered on a previous post that I admitted was more/less void in a subsequent post.

2. I realize how rare MAists are. I also understand the unlikelyhood of the given scenario ever taking place. This post was brought about by some comments from various people I have trained with and some medical professionals who were telling stories, giving advice, or giving warnings. Awareness is your best defence in any situation, so I decided to start this post to raise my own awareness. Until I saw the videos I was just not satisfied that you couldn't break kali down in a specific fashion. Now I am.

3. In light of me "worring" about something that is probably never going to happen, as I have mentioned before, I know people who have had guns in their face, knives drawn on them, and I have heard of EMS jumping out of the ambulance for something like a stabbing before the police get there and winding up dead. Just awareness. This is a freak scenario, but it does happen. Just like the paramedic being beat to death in the back of the ambulance by the PCP addict. Again, freak occurence that could have been prevented but it has happened. I'm not worried about something that is probably never going to happen. I am in no means worried about it in the same fashion I'm not worried about having to know how to jump out of a moving car on the free way because I have been abducted by someone, I am just curious.

Jean, just to clarify some things for you about what I am saying (since I seem to be on both sides). I do believe that Aikido does have all the answers built into the art. That is knowledge. But the thing that O Sensei, Takeda, and a handful of other accomplished martial artists have that no ammount of dojo training is going to give you is experience. I know people who use this art on a daily basis in real situations, maybe not the preverbial street fight, but in situations where they can and will be harmed if they cannot neutralize someone. They have knowledge and experience and I hope I get as good as some of them are. O Sensei had experience fending off attackers meant for Takeda and with real challenges with real martial artists. Takeda had a good bit of experience.

Once again, let me restate that I do believe that Aikido does have the answers, but every single person who is teaching it might not. You can gain knowledge from anyone. You can gain good knowledge from someone who has experience. But you cannot gain experience from a sensei. If you have to go to someone else to give yourself experience in a controlled situation to feel that YOU are effective, then go for it. If you are in a McDojo then I would probably suggest it because you might get killed b/c you were trained by someone with no experience and questionable knowledge. It is not a weakness to say "i don't know go ask somone who does". It is a weakness to say "it cannot be done."

CNYMike
07-31-2005, 12:17 AM
Mike Gallagher, Sorry about that. I intended to put a larger space between those paragraphs to signify that it wasn't necessarily directed at you.

Thanks.

..... I don't see anything wrong with saying,"I think Aikido lacks here or there." We've all got opinions. I'm just saying (this is going out to all who do this) if you're going to say it and it gets challenged, atleast answer the challenge and drop it. Or, don't answer the challenge and stop posting your opinions which you refuse to substantiate.....

Well, on the one hand, the simple fact is there is a laundry list of techniques Aikido people don't train against. These include on the one hand, kickboxing combinations and strategies; on the other hand, ground fighting scenarios. Some styles/systems/dojos address these things, I know, but many including the two I have been in do not. I have both the Doshu's Best Aikido books, and he doesn't go near them, either. And certain trypes of training, like sparring, are not done either. Many other martial artists do them. That's all there is to it.

Does this mean that a "traditionally" trained Aikido person is doomed facing someone from systems where they do kickboxing and/or grappling and train with sparring/randori/rolling? That's where I pull up short and say, "I don't know." I would say our hypotheitcal Aikidoka would be at a serious disadvantage, but on the other hand -- and the Doshu had one in Best Aikido -- of Aikido people facing things that they haven't formally trained against and prevailing. Then again, no one in the Aikido world is going to repeat the story of an Aikido person who gets his butt kicked unless it's an Aikido person who used that experience to found a "combat Aikido" system. :confused: What can you do?

Having said all that, with the emphasis my Kali teacher has placed on respect, I have not problem with the idea that all of those issues are moot if your instructors and seniors tell you "Don't do ______." That's the end; you don't do it, because that would be disrespectful.

WRT Dustin's question, I never took the tack of "you will get your ass kicked," instead pointing out, "this is what you have to be aware of." Maybe Aikido has the answers to it, but it still hopes to know the what the questions are, right?

For myself, well, I'm the guy who still has massive problems with forward ukemi. :( It'll probably be a long time before I'm in a postion to say how well Aikido works against "non Aikido" sparring, although I have had some interesting experiences with pushing hands drills. But I don't worry about what Sensei DOESN'T teach. Makes life simpler, actually.

Hope this clears things up.

CNYMike
07-31-2005, 12:27 AM
Okay, just a few quick things Mike:

1. Your last post was centered on a previous post that I admitted was more/less void in a subsequent post.


Yeah, well, I missed the post and was playing catch up. :o


2. I realize how rare MAists are. I also understand the unlikelyhood of the given scenario ever taking place. This post was brought about by some comments from various people I have trained with and some medical professionals who were telling stories, giving advice, or giving warnings. Awareness is your best defence in any situation, so I decided to start this post to raise my own awareness. Until I saw the videos I was just not satisfied that you couldn't break kali down in a specific fashion. Now I am.

3. In light of me "worring" about something that is probably never going to happen, as I have mentioned before, I know people who have had guns in their face, knives drawn on them, and I have heard of EMS jumping out of the ambulance for something like a stabbing before the police get there and winding up dead. Just awareness. This is a freak scenario, but it does happen. Just like the paramedic being beat to death in the back of the ambulance by the PCP addict. Again, freak occurence that could have been prevented but it has happened. I'm not worried about something that is probably never going to happen. I am in no means worried about it in the same fashion I'm not worried about having to know how to jump out of a moving car on the free way because I have been abducted by someone, I am just curious.


Ok.

I'm not saying your life won't be in danger in this job; I am saying -- and I think you agree -- contending with an attack by an FMA person with two sticks/swords (did he say swords?)/knives would be a freak incident's freak incident. The other problem is your questions are extemely difficult to answer. I'm glad the videos you were pointed at were helpful, but doing something like the Dog Brothers is soemthing you can do after a lot of training that covers a lot of territory. I had a smartass answer on the tip of my tongue, "Maybe you can explain it to me?" Even so, rather than spell out specific techniques, I've preferred to outline the issues you'd deal with and let you draw your own conclusions. Even so, I hope it helped.

DustinAcuff
08-01-2005, 12:56 AM
I had a smartass answer on the tip of my tongue, "Maybe you can explain it to me?"

UFC with sticks, never enter inside the arms, go outside. wait for one of the jump shots and drop the poor guy. Elbows dont move that much but stay away from the flat end of the stick.

:P

CNYMike
08-01-2005, 11:33 AM
UFC with sticks, never enter inside the arms, go outside. wait for one of the jump shots and drop the poor guy. Elbows dont move that much but stay away from the flat end of the stick.

:P

I asked for an explanation, not an oversimplification. :p :p :)

Adam Alexander
08-01-2005, 12:07 PM
Well, on the one hand, the simple fact is there is a laundry list of techniques Aikido people don't train against.

Aikido trains against them all...you just have to look a little closer to see it.

DustinAcuff
08-01-2005, 03:28 PM
explination: kali is stick swinging jumpin monkeys who lack the discipline to mount a controlled attack, stay on the line and intrestingly try to weild one jo in each hand.

Just kidding.

Looks like an art that is very personalized and unorthodoxed.

CNYMike
08-02-2005, 11:34 AM
Aikido trains against them all...you just have to look a little closer to see it.

Hmmm .... then I guess the Doshu will put the variations used against kicks, boxing cobination, ground fighting, and shoots in his third Best Aikido book, because they aren't in the first two. Must be more advanced technique.

If you're saying that someone grounded in Aikido's principles can apply the technqies against "non-standard" attacks, yeah, I'll conceed the possiblity. But it doesn't help matters that most Aikidoists won't see those things in the dojo. Period. They'd be on their own without so much as a hint of what to do.

But as I have said many, many times many many times already, I'm not going to Aikido for what they don't teach! So while I can note the above problems, for me, it's not a showstopper.

CNYMike
08-02-2005, 11:37 AM
explination: kali is stick swinging jumpin monkeys who lack the discipline to mount a controlled attack, stay on the line and intrestingly try to weild one jo in each hand.

Just kidding.


There are Kali guys who would kill you for less than that! So while I know you're kidding, watch it if you really want to avoid a dust up with an FMAist.


Looks like an art that is very personalized and unorthodoxed.

Like I said, it doesn't boil down to a nutshell unsless the nutshell is a hundred stories tall. So it's huge more than anything else.

Adam Alexander
08-02-2005, 12:07 PM
Hmmm .... then I guess the Doshu will put the variations used against kicks, boxing cobination, ground fighting, and shoots in his third Best Aikido book, because they aren't in the first two. Must be more advanced technique.

There's a lot of things that are said without being said.

Good luck with your training. You'll get out what you put in.

DustinAcuff
08-02-2005, 02:33 PM
Not too worried about it. I have the utmost respect for all martial artists. My comment comes from a scene the promo DB vid where crafty jumps at the other guy with an attack, my computer glitched about the apex of the jump and then proceded in glitch slow motion. It was rather amusing seeking slow moving jumping escrimadors with the 33" sticks, I just couldn't resist.

CNYMike
08-02-2005, 05:44 PM
^^ "I see!" said the blind man. I don't have any of the DB stuff, so I ddidn't know. Thanks for clearing that up.

CNYMike
08-02-2005, 06:39 PM
There's a lot of things that are said without being said.

Good luck with your training. You'll get out what you put in.

Dear Jean,

If I said what was in my heart right now, Jun would throw me off the board so fast your great-great-great-great-grandchildren would hear the sonic boom.

So I won't.

I have expressed my thoughts and feelings about Aikido in previous posts in this thread; rather than restate them, I will point you back to what I said before. In particular, the second two paragraphs of post #100 and then all of post #65. For your convenience, here are links to those messages:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=113523&postcount=100

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112806&postcount=65

Kindly take these ideas as gospel and refrain from speculating about my thoughts, feelings, and motives. If necessary, print the posts up and keep them near your computer so you can refer to them in the future.

Oh and FYI, the Doshu's Best Aikido books have come in handy; I find them more useful the longer I do Aikido, and I'm glad I bought them.

Adam Alexander
08-02-2005, 06:46 PM
Geeze Mike, I don't get your sensitivity. I understand that you train Aikido for "what you believe it is--not isn't." I'm just saying that maybe it's more than what you think it "is". That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Roy
08-02-2005, 09:19 PM
Michael Gallagher,
"If I said what was in my heart right now, Jun would throw me off the board so fast your great-great-great-great-grandchildren would hear the sonic boom."

That's funny! I understand where your coming from! I to have felt the same way because of the same reasons, and person. But the heart of Aikido is to "avoid" confrontation, some people may never learn this!?!?

CNYMike
08-02-2005, 10:03 PM
Geeze Mike, I don't get your sensitivity .....

Obviously.

It would be a good idea to remember that whether they are doing it now or have done it in the past, most everyone here is here out of affection for Aikido. This includes people like me who are doing other arts at the same time as they do Aikido; it is near and dear to our hearts, even if it isn't the only thing there. In light of that, saying that such people are not dedicated to Aikido would, at best, not go over well; at worst it could be considered insulting. I don't see myself as "a Kali person who knows a few Aikido technques," and I'd wager the other crosstrainers here don't see themselves that way. So if you characterize us as such, don't be surprise if we get our backs (and our sticks and our boxing gloves) up.

Just a thought.

Furthermore, in this thread, in responding to you, I find myself adopting a tone that comes across as critical to Aikido when I don't feel that way at all. It's one thing to provide Dustin with information about Kali. I've done it for a while and I'm happy to try and provide information. But it's another as the thread deteirorates into an Aikido v. Kali debate, which makes it sound like there are a bunch of Kali people who have it in for Aikido when, in fact, the Kali people are either doing Aikido now or have done it in the past! It makes me sound like something I'm not; that's why I wish that the discussion would stop.

...... I understand that you train Aikido for "what you believe it is--not isn't." .....

Wrong again. It would be more accurate to say I am training for what my teachers and seniors are teaching, which sounds funny but is true. What I believe is irellevant. I am there, as my Kali instructor would put it, to keep my mouth shut and learn from the person at the head of the room, regardless of what it is. After all, I jumped into that class of my own free will and I am staying in it of my own free will, so it wouldn't do me any good to bitch about the situation I put myself in if I was inclined to which I'm not.


I'm just saying that maybe it's more than what you think it "is". That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I am not commenting on what it "is." I am in the process of just beginning to learn what it "is." I can not honestly say I know what it "is," so I won't try.

I am noting what has been taught in the dojos I have been in and have been in and am in, and in the sources I've read. I know what attacks are formally covered in those areas and what are not. Could an Aikido person who never formally trained against a grappler/kickboxer/MMA person prevail? Sure. I won't argue about that. But it wouldn't change the fact that those things are not FORMALLY in the curriculum of many dojos. They're not. Period. There are no two ways about it. You can not point to a series of photos in the Doshu's Best Aikido books where he shows responses to jabs, jab-crosses, round kicks, and shoots, because those photos are not there. The Aikido throws and locks may work against those things (note that I am not saying flat out that the Aikidoka would be doomed -- I'm not at that extreme), but those responses would not be in the formal curricula, at least not in the dojo I have been in.

NONE OF WHICH MATTERS TO ME! If that is the way Aikido is, if that is the way it is taught, then that is the way it is, and that is the way I am going to learn it. Period. My biggest concerns in Aikido are my on-again-off-again forward ukemi and keeping my rear heal down. If sensei can handle a Thai round kick, that's great! I don't know; I've never asked him. If he doesn't know, that's ok. If he does know but doesn't want to teach it, that's ok, too. I don't care. He's the sensei, I'm not. I'm there to learn from him.

CNYMike
08-02-2005, 10:10 PM
Michael Gallagher,
"If I said what was in my heart right now, Jun would throw me off the board so fast your great-great-great-great-grandchildren would hear the sonic boom."

That's funny! I understand where your coming from! I to have felt the same way because of the same reasons, and person. But the heart of Aikido is to "avoid" confrontation, some people may never learn this!?!?

And the thing that drives me nuts is the debate frequently makes the people who do Kali sound like they have it in for Aikido, when in fact, they are either (like me) doing Aikido or have done it! I don't like being forced to adopt a tone that contradicts how I feel; I like doing Kali and Aikido, and I like and respect my instructors in both arts. In fact, my Kali instructor was a pall bearer at my Mom's funeral; and he enouraged me to go back into Aikido when I told him I was thinking about it. There's no conflict within me. I hate being maneuvered into it in this thread.

Roy
08-02-2005, 10:34 PM
I get where you are coming from! I also like to do other MAs. But, ultimately I always feel drawn back to Aikido. I think its great that you are expanding your Aikido by doing Escrima! I don't think Aikido was meant to limit ones desire to train other MAs, some people act like its a religion; e.g. Christians should not mesh with the Catholics etc... etc... Infact I'm currently exploring Systema!

P.S. Don't take the "nose picks" too seriously ;)

mansour
08-03-2005, 01:15 AM
Hi, im a kali practitioner and an aikido practitioner too.grew up in the mean streets of manila and parts of the philippines .a very nice place but a place where life is CHEAP. when i mean cheap, i mean you can get killed or stabbed for the smallest reasons.. even just looking or staring. also you dont run to the cops in the philippines but you run away from them. its unlike here in the US where mostly everything is safe. back home we had to modify the type of aikido we do, something called combat aikido (whch mind you also has a blend of kali). in order to know how to counter a kali person ,especially in knife fighting is to study it, and to have an open mind. you will not believe how unreal the counters there are against the kotegaeshi,sankyo,ikkyo etc. i do believe an open mind and a blend of both is great. actually there are alot of kali techniques which resemble aikido movements. ..on the street its always survival. cheers.

mansour
08-03-2005, 01:25 AM
explination: kali is stick swinging jumpin monkeys who lack the discipline to mount a controlled attack, stay on the line and intrestingly try to weild one jo in each hand.

Just kidding.

Looks like an art that is very personalized and unorthodoxed.


- Kali has been around for hundreds of years utilized by my forefathers and is based in survival. it's obvious you havent been in a life threatening situation and have the probable thoughts that everything in a real fight would look pretty. this is a perception of the untrained eye.if you probably think that an assailant would cooperately adhere to your technique in the street..my friend you are fataly wrong. i suggest you learn about kali before you begin to crack jokes like this. you might one day come across someone in the street skilled with a knife and not know how to counter it. just to find out you've been done with by an fma person. study.learn.absorb.

Adam Alexander
08-03-2005, 12:10 PM
I am not commenting on what it "is." I am in the process of just beginning to learn what it "is." I can not honestly say I know what it "is," so I won't try.


If you feel that way, I think that's great. However, you express this...

Well, on the one hand, the simple fact is there is a laundry list of techniques Aikido people don't train against

I think you're mistaken. That's all. If instead of the latter, you consistently expressed the former, you'd rarely, if ever, hear from me:)

DustinAcuff
08-03-2005, 01:43 PM
Mansour I apologize if I have heart your feelings in the least. I know about Kali's traditions and am quite well aware how much value is placed in time honored traditions that have kept members of your faimly alive. If you look to an above post you will see that that comment came across as a generilization about all FMA instead of a a brief amusement over a computer glitch. Also that cheapness of life you spoke of is a major part of the reason I started this thread. As to preforming techniques on a real opponent: I don't even expect uke to cooperate with a technique nor do I train for it. I may or may not have a misconception about how things work in real life. I have grown up in the bladesmithing circles and have seen quite a few live demos of some very skilled knife fighters, I have no illusions as to what kind of chances I stand against one. I've only been in a handful of fights in my early teens and have never dealt with an attacker intent on killing me. All of my knowledge and expectations about FMAs come from a friend of the faimly who has trained for quite a while in them and a few demo videos I have seen on the internet. And from what I have seen of the DB vids there is no comparing what I expected there. These guys go out with Jo sized sticks and punch, kick, and grapple as if they were UFC fighters. I'm not in doubt as to the abilities displayed but as of late I have had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth for the cage-fighting world in general. Once again, apoligies, I was out of line there and admit it.

I am highly intrested in how you train with FMAs in mind. Can you recommend any websites that show some of this?


Michael -- how does training in two fairly diffrent arts impact your mushin outside of your dojos?

Jay Mills
08-03-2005, 05:56 PM
Michael, great posts! Everything i do is JKD concepts oriented, takin from Guru Inosantos lineage through Burton Richardson and custom tailored to me. I take from Kali, Silat, JKD, Muay Thai, and BJJ, but am always researching other styles/systems etc. I try to continue to look at things in different ways, to see a bigger picture, a unifying theme. I believe many of us that crosstrain feel as you do, thank you for your comments.

Mansour, your words are so true! I dont think people realize how really difficult it is to pull off those pretty techniques when things are for real! Like i always say, you will hardly ever be able to make technique look as good as you do in the training hall! Every once in a while it will happen, but 99.99999% of the time it doesnt look or feel the same! I would say that if you can always make things look as you do in a cooperative training atmosphere, then the person your fighting isnt resisting you 100% with a mindset to really hurt you! In my experience, people tend to get stuck in a martial arts rut, just focusing or seeing one way of doing things. When you take them outside that realm, speed it up, add resistance, lots of pressure, and a fighting mindset, they tend to start viewing what works in a really different light! Anyways, thank you for your comments, i would say you have much to add on this topic, ingat.

Gumagalang
Jay Mills


Dustin, i sort of felt the same way Michael and Mansour did at first, but after you explaining what happend, i started crackin up! I had the exact same thing happen to me with one of the DB videos! You really dont seem like a disrespectful guy, i just think sometimes on these boards its difficult to really get intent from the written word. If we were all sittin around sippin beers an cutting up like me an my friends do, i dont think half the things we think of as disrespectful on here would even be mentioned!

CNYMike
08-05-2005, 11:12 AM
.... Michael -- how does training in two fairly diffrent arts impact your mushin outside of your dojos?


:confused: I'm not sure what you'er asking me here. Culd you restate the question without the Aiki-technobabble? I'm pretty weak in that area. :o

CNYMike
08-05-2005, 11:18 AM
..... If instead of the latter, you consistently expressed the former, you'd rarely, if ever, hear from me:)

The latter is a startement of fact about what training is done in the dojo; it has nothing to do with the former, which comes from a student's perception of an art. If, hypothetically, you were to try a Thai Boxing class, and when someone asked you what you did, you would say "a lot of punches and kicks" regardless of your being totally new at it.

Likewise, stating what a martial arts author chooses to cover in a book or series a books is also a statement of fact; you can verify it by picking up your own copy. Whether that author has the skill and knowledge to handle things he doesn't mention in the book is irellevant; what is in the book doesn't change regardless.

Adam Alexander
08-05-2005, 01:28 PM
Mike Gallagher, Just my opinion...but you don't know enough about what a strike is to be telling what is "fact."

Here's a fact...strikes are the whole of many parts. Train to respond to the parts, and you'll defeat the whole.;)

DustinAcuff
08-05-2005, 07:01 PM
Here's the aiki-technobable free version of the question: how does training in so many diffrent arts impact your ability to react at the drop of a dime? Do so many diffrent styles conflict? Do they compliment? Have you ever even found out?

CNYMike
08-06-2005, 11:20 AM
Here's the aiki-technobable free version of the question: how does training in so many diffrent arts impact your ability to react at the drop of a dime? Do so many diffrent styles conflict? Do they compliment? Have you ever even found out?

I've never had the opportunity to find out (thank God), if you're referring to a real life situaton. I haven't had any "problems" with Aikido in my other classes. But I think they're more likely to compliment than conflict, although I am trying to keep them separate in ech class --- ie, in Aikido do Aikido, in Kali do Kali, etc.

CNYMike
08-06-2005, 11:26 AM
Mike Gallagher, Just my opinion...but you don't know enough about what a strike is to be telling what is "fact.")

Jean de Rochefort, with all due respect, you've never met me, you'e never trained with me, you don't know what I train in, and as such, have no clue as to what I know, and have no business presuming to tell me what I do and don't know.

You want to play the role of the guardian at the gate, the one true Aikidoka standing against the barabarian hoards of crosstrainers, be my guest. I've had enough of your snide remarks and veiled insults, and being baited into making arguments that go against how I feel. Play the game all you wish; I will not play with you anymore.

Welcome to my killfile.

Adam Alexander
08-06-2005, 04:21 PM
Mike Gallagher...Yes, you're right...I am a gaurd:) LOL. That's hillarious!

If you were considering a heart-surgeon and all you had to go on is what he wrote, I think you'd be able to recognize some things that was totally out in left field for heart surgery.

Suppose the doctor talked about the importance of the sphyncter in circulation? You'd walk away saying,"I don't think he knows what he's talking about."

Here's what it is Mike: You've been talking about my sphyncter.


Dustin: Very early on, I tried cross-training briefly. During class, I found the stance that I reflexively went into during Aikido class was a bastardization of the two. Same thing with the fist I was making.

Further, I recognized that the time I was spending trying to master the basics of one art was taking away from my time on the other...at best, making me a jack-of-all-trades...master of nothing.

DustinAcuff
08-06-2005, 05:49 PM
I can understand that Jean, that's why I asked. My first two months I started Daito Ryu I was still training BJJ and Muai Thai, but it just got to the point where I was starting to suck at everything equally rather than improving anything, so I decided what my priorities were and started Daito full time.

CNYMike
08-06-2005, 06:36 PM
I can understand that Jean, that's why I asked. My first two months I started Daito Ryu I was still training BJJ and Muai Thai, but it just got to the point where I was starting to suck at everything equally rather than improving anything, so I decided what my priorities were and started Daito full time.

Here's the question: Would you still have had those problems after a year? Or would you hav learned to "switch gears" between arts?

I had problems like that last year, mainly because Kali isn't as specific about stance whereas in Aikido they are very particular about it. Biggest problem was keeping my rear heal down. But I mad a point of doing the things they wanted things to do in Aikido. So 17 months after getting back to Aikido, no major stance problems. Even then, I've done karate for about 20 years, and there are "karate-isms" that pop out in Kali, most notably a tendency to drop my hands, but that's something else to look out for.

Learning how to compartmentalize what you are doing is as much a trick as learning any one art; I know because I've only been doing it for overa a year myself. As for the mix of arts you had, you seem to have almost all the ranges of combat covered except tracking; adding Wing Chun would cover that. But if you want to do Daito Ryu full time, that's up to you. I just think you didn't give yourself enough time to learn how to compartmentalize.

Aristeia
08-06-2005, 07:51 PM
i concur. When I started BJJ I had already internalised alot of basic Aikido stuff, plus there's the whole, "hmm am i on my feet or on my back" thing that helped keep them seperate. I dabbled with judo for a while but chucked it because I simply didn't have enough spare training hours to make progress in it. Some of my students have done similar things, and one in particular dropped judo because he wasn't far enough down the aikido path to prevent the footwork from interfering with each other.
So some things I think you can start cross traiing from reasonalby early on, but having a solid foundation in one art is always adivsiable, whereas other things just don't mix well, or cross over to the point where you want to make sure you are reasonably advanced in one before trying to add the other.
Jean I'm not surprised you had trouble cross training, it sounds like you were both pretty much a beginner and the two things you were doing had too much cross over. So I'd like you to consider the possibility that your particular experience was affected by those two factors and maybe you can't extrapolate it out to all cross training. Extrapolating from a single example to the general population is always a poor scientific method, and as Michael G points out there are many prominent counter examples in the Aikido world.

DustinAcuff
08-06-2005, 10:33 PM
Well, part of the reason I dumped everything else was the mentality required in BJJ and MT. I simply don't have the agressive drive required to do well in agressive push-pull arts or striking arts. I don't like hurting people and from my experience in both injuries are just normal. I know BJJ people who have had busted arms, shoulders, knees, ankles and necks. Another part of the reason is I couldn't do my footwork properly due to some permanently broken toes. But the biggest part is that I really believed that the Daito was more effective. I cannot speak for any one else, but I am lucky enough to be trained from strikes, grabs, active resistance, various weapons, firearms, rear attacks, chokes, blindfolded, on stairs, in chairs, at desks, in bathrooms, in cars, armed, unarmed, multiple attackers and on the ground (and some intresting combinations of the above). Things I have done throughout my life have helped, and I still have quite an intrest in Wing Chun (though I have never heard of a tracking range), but I am still getting the most realistic and complete training I have ever heard of anywhere. That is the biggest reason I stopped crosstraining -- I have no ambition to get into a ring or cage so why am I training to beat someone there?

DustinAcuff
08-06-2005, 10:40 PM
It may well be that if I kept it up I would have compartmentalized eventually, but it seems counter productive to me to train to be hard on the one hand while on the other hand I have to get soft and fluid to get any (keyword: any) of my techniques to work. Being soft and fluid is exceptionally important since half the people I train with are my size or larger and I am not being taught to not use atemi nor can I overpower these guys. It was what I had to do at the time and I honestly don't expect that I will ever go back to striking, it just seems pointless and a waste of time and effort now.

aikigirl10
08-06-2005, 11:40 PM
Jean de Rochefort,

From the posts i've read by you , it sounds like to me that you are a little overconfident about what aikido can handle. (to put it lightly) but i guess i could be wrong.

Anyway if this is the case, I also used to think that aikido was an invincible martial art , that it could beat anything , withstand any attack, that was until i tried another MA. Trying out another art was kind of a smack in the face for me . It made me realize how much aikido lacked. Dont get me wrong aikido is great and there are also things that this and other martial arts lack but of course , no art covers everything u need to know.

I think if you just tried another art you would realize how much other arts have to offer that aikido doesnt. (Again , not attacking aikido)

And this isnt coming from a beginner aikidoka , i've been doing this for about 7 1/2 years.( I started when i was 8 and now i'm 15) I've only been in the other art for one year. Yes , i'm young but i promise i'm not stupid.

Just please consider these things other arts can be great too,
-Paige

Roy
08-06-2005, 11:45 PM
Dustin,

I don't like striking either! It just has no class! My sensei is a doorman at a few nightclubs, and he forbids striking to the face etc... He claim he has seen many of his workmates broke there fingers by doing that. A few doorman got major infections, by hitting guys on the face, accidentally cutting their fingers, by jabbing there teeth. .

DustinAcuff
08-07-2005, 12:09 AM
Paige, here's a question: could you handle someone from another art if you are in a kill or be killed situation? Would you take life or have your life taken? Don't worry about it if someone hits you once or twice, train against more realistic attacks. You have been doing aikido for 7 1/2 years > what is your rank? how do you train? have you ever trained against realisitic attacks from people who are proficient? There's competition and then there's combat: which one are you training for?

Kevin Leavitt
08-07-2005, 10:49 AM
I train for combat, and I have found competition to be a wonderful tool to develop the spirit and skills necessary to assist you in combat. The challenge is to have enough perspective to understand the difference between combat and competition applications. You have to strike a balance.

There is a tendency within aikido to look at all competition as bad. I agree it can be "waterdown" the technique and you can loose perspective of combat application, but I would also caution against not training against fully resistant and full speed opponents.

Sure, it is difficult to train many aikido techniques this way...you shouldn't train many of them.

I'd also submit that you should not train this way if your goal is to be on the path of aiki DO...why? it is pointless and a waste of time in achieving the goals of Aiki DO.

However...once you cross the chasm of "reality" or practical application...there is a whole other world out there that aikido philosophically does not focus on and there are a multitude of ways and methods for training to prepare for whatever slice of reality you wish to prepare for!

I really caution you into accepting the paradiqm that "aikido techniques are much to lethal and unstoppable in reality to practice against a fully resistant opponent".

On the same vein...I defend aikido against those that say it needs to change (Michael Neal are you out there :)). Aikido is fine for what it does do! It may not be your thing...but there is too much to study on the path or way of aiki than to waste your time focused on "reality applications".

aikigirl10
08-07-2005, 12:24 PM
Paige, here's a question: could you handle someone from another art if you are in a kill or be killed situation? Would you take life or have your life taken? Don't worry about it if someone hits you once or twice, train against more realistic attacks. You have been doing aikido for 7 1/2 years > what is your rank? how do you train? have you ever trained against realisitic attacks from people who are proficient? There's competition and then there's combat: which one are you training for?

Dustin,

With all the martial arts training i have had , of course i have had training against realistic attacks, and yes i train for combat and competition both. But what i was getting at was I DO NOT do all of this stuff in aikido. Most of my "realistic" training actually comes from shaolin. This is what i was trying to point out to Jean. And yes i have trained with people who are beyond ''proficient" .

As far as rank goes , i do hold rank in both MA. No, im not a black belt but wasnt it YOU PEOPLE who told me in an earlier thread that it wasnt rank that matters , its the amount of time and experience you have under your belt , not the color of your belt.

Hope this clears stuff up.
Paige

DustinAcuff
08-07-2005, 01:29 PM
Paige -- Sorry, no offence intened. In some places I've heard of you are not concidered proficient until you hit a certain rank or have been a member for over a decade. Rank means little but generally one has a certain level of skill that is expected to have that particular rank. It is good that you seem to be seeking to better yourself.

Kevin, I have a bit of a grudge with competition. It has its place, I just want no part of it.

Adam Alexander
08-07-2005, 02:39 PM
1)Jean I'm not surprised you had trouble cross training, it sounds like you were both pretty much a beginner and the two things you were doing had too much cross over. So I'd like you to consider the possibility that your particular experience was affected by those two factors and maybe you can't extrapolate it out to all cross training.

2)Extrapolating from a single example to the general population is always a poor scientific method, and as Michael G points out there are many prominent counter examples in the Aikido world.

1)Yeah, I might agree with you. However, I watched it happen to a ten yr. Aikido veteran who started Karate. More than anything, I watched his stance go to sh**.

Further, I suspect another person at the dojo with just as much experience in another art come to Aikido. After years of Aikido, when I was his uke, it never felt quite right...Kind of like there was always something more linear.

2)For the most part I'd agree, Micheal. However, I've found that my personal experience which includes the ideas and feelings that are inexpressable (even if only occasioned once) are much more reliable than the expressable opinions of people who's credibility I don't know and who'll not face the repercussions of the decisions I make based on their opinions.

Let me put it this way...If you laid your junk out on a log with an axe hanging over it, would you trust 100 people's opinions on when it'll fall--experts or not--or would you trust the experiences you've had?

Scientific method (as I think you're using it) has it's place. Unfortunately, I've found that there's a lot of variables that we don't know about in real life that prevents it's practical use in the everyday.

Adam Alexander
08-07-2005, 02:45 PM
Jean de Rochefort,

From the posts i've read by you , it sounds like to me that you are a little overconfident about what aikido can handle. (to put it lightly) but i guess i could be wrong.

Anyway if this is the case, I also used to think that aikido was an invincible martial art , that it could beat anything , withstand any attack, that was until i tried another MA. Trying out another art was kind of a smack in the face for me . It made me realize how much aikido lacked. Dont get me wrong aikido is great and there are also things that this and other martial arts lack but of course , no art covers everything u need to know.

I think if you just tried another art you would realize how much other arts have to offer that aikido doesnt. (Again , not attacking aikido)

And this isnt coming from a beginner aikidoka , i've been doing this for about 7 1/2 years.( I started when i was 8 and now i'm 15) I've only been in the other art for one year. Yes , i'm young but i promise i'm not stupid.

Just please consider these things other arts can be great too,
-Paige

Paige,

I don't doubt that you're smart. Nor do I doubt you're experienced.

Unfortunately, throughout my training--visiting other dojos, other styles, other arts--I've learned one thing: Nearly 100% of the people who (I've seen) train do not train correctly (my idea of correctly). Because of that, their understanding will take far longer.

No commitment...or misapplied commitment.


Aikido does handle everything...EVERYTHING. You just have to find the answers.

aikigirl10
08-07-2005, 02:48 PM
....whatever floats everyones boat.....

aikigirl10
08-07-2005, 02:51 PM
Jean,

One more thing out of curiosity (not being rude) What would be your idea of training correctly?

CNYMike
08-07-2005, 08:01 PM
..... I still have quite an intrest in Wing Chun (though I have never heard of a tracking range) .....

Not "tracking," Dustin -- trapping. I hadn't heard of it myself before I got into Kali and Wing Chun. And it's kind of hard to describe if you've never heard of it. It's just inside boxing range, close enough that your leed foot is even with the other person's leed foot, but generally stops short of boddy to boddy. The goal of a wing chun-stule trapper is to tie the other perons in knots so they can blast in. (I did say it was hard to describe.)

The only branch of Wing Chun I know anything about is connected with Sifu Francis Fong, who's tight with Sifu Dan Inosanto and Arjan Surachai Sirisute; IMHO, you can't go wrong if you find someone connected to Sifu Francis, although there are plenty of Wing Chun lineages to choose from, particularly in California. If you ever look into it, best of luck!


.... That is the biggest reason I stopped crosstraining -- I have no ambition to get into a ring or cage so why am I training to beat someone there?

You're not training to fight someone in medieval Japan, are you, but you're doing an art with roots there anyway? You honestly wear a hakama on the street? You can say that about anything, you see.

WRT techniques, the analogy my instructors have used most is tools for the toolbox. Aikijutsu gives you one set of tools; Tahi Boxing and BJJ give you another set. No, you may not get in the cage and get it on, BJJ can give you things you could use if you end up on the ground -- on the wrong side of the mount. Thai Boxing? A round kick to the thigh of someone who doesn't know who to take it can be a fight ender; Sifu Kevin Seaman had a story about how just that happened. Would you want to use it all the time? No. You may never. It's all about having options. If you have a nail you want to pount into the wall you go for a hammer -- not a screwdriver.

But as I said, up to you. Obviously, I've been connected to a lineage that enshrines crosstraining, so I'm all for it, but it's all about what works for you, too.

Oh, and Dustin, I was on the phone with Guro Andy earlier and I repeated your story about the FMA master who stabbed someone without provocation; he laughed. So I think that if someone wasn't pulling your leg, they were repeating an urban myth. Don't worry about it.

CNYMike
08-07-2005, 08:07 PM
.... it seems counter productive to me to train to be hard on the one hand while on the other hand I have to get soft and fluid to get any (keyword: any) of my techniques to work .....

Yin and yang.

Beyond that, you'd need to talk to someone else doing Aikido and Thai Boxing for info -- if you want it --- because I've never done the latter.

But as I said, it's about what works for you, too. I'm happy to debate you, but if you're content with what you're doing, more power to ya!

aikigirl10
08-07-2005, 08:36 PM
Michael G. -- Great posts! i couldnt have said it better myself.

DustinAcuff
08-07-2005, 08:57 PM
Ah, trapping. I am learning to tie people in knots now so why would I need to learn how somewhere else? Ever seen a crossed arms throw? Or a crossed arms double sankyo? And as for the range just inside of punching: it really doesn't matter, ma ai is relative to what you train for.

Michael and Paige: I understand now!!! You are trying to be your own yin and yang while I am trying to let uke be yin and me be yang (I hope I didn't get those confused again). Makes sense in a funny way looking at it from there.

Dirk Hanss
08-08-2005, 04:35 AM
Michael and Paige: I understand now!!! You are trying to be your own yin and yang while I am trying to let uke be yin and me be yang (I hope I didn't get those confused again). Makes sense in a funny way looking at it from there.
Well, you didn't mix them up, but you should always have a balance. An only yin-uke would have a nice strong attack to challenge you, but would not be able to "take the technique" without being injured. And vice versa for a yang-only nage.
But even if you could be a yang-only uke, I guess you are the sensei and never visit other instructors seminars, or how do you manage to be only nage and never uke?
If you are in a wonderful situation that there are (kick-)boxers and ju jutsuka, who are willing to always attack you to improve their art while you just throw and lock them to improve your aikido, than your balance might be rather on the yang side. We unfortunately have to train good strikes and kicks to develop at least reasonable uke for each other.

Cheers Dirk

Adam Alexander
08-08-2005, 12:29 PM
Jean,

One more thing out of curiosity (not being rude) What would be your idea of training correctly?

Kata. The same one, over and over. No talk. Just do. Not for ten or fifteen times. For 50, 100, 200 times in a training session. Speed corresponding to ability--I've been experimenting with slow and it's been opening up doors all over:)

Jorx
08-09-2005, 08:32 AM
What considers trapping...
More and more widespread is becoming the view (that coming from usually ex-JKD; ex-Wing Chun) guys that the TRAPPING RANGE does not exist in actual combat. There is clinchdistance which begins with a grab and ends with body-to-body contact but it's all unseparable and moving rather uncontrollably. View that the fight can be held in the trapping distance e.g. chi-sao is an illusion.

Jorx
08-09-2005, 09:22 AM
Speaking of BJJ'ers... There are different views out there. Roy Harris says one thing Dan Inosanto is also BJJ blackbelt, Erik Paulson has neglected the concept of trapping, Matt Thornton and the rest of SBGi guys say (after experimenting it for some years in midnineties) the range just does not exist and only way to go is to learn proper clinching-skills. And that even with sticks. DogBrothers MA tries to reinvent and revive the trapping concept with their new Kali Tudo (haven't seen it can't really comment).

My personal opinion ist that no. Trapping range skills as usually practiced in JKD/Wing Chun/whatever do not help. Proper clinch will.

Now I've been lucky enough to see (and experience) a VERY EFFECTIVE anti-clinch system from a UK instructor Karl Tanswell who has some 20+ years of MA experience incl. jkd, silat, kempo etc now for the last I don't know how many years he is into MMA. It's on a soon-to-be-released "Keep it standing" instructional and is derived from usual clinch-skills and boxing with some added twists. No trapping. His homepage is this:
http://www.karltanswell.com/

Karl is also the inventor of highly functional S.T.A.B. (Survival Tactics Against Blades) program and just a... really cool and down-to-earth guy.

CNYMike
08-09-2005, 11:21 AM
Ah, trapping. I am learning to tie people in knots now so why would I need to learn how somewhere else? ......

Because it's not exactlyt the same. I told you, it's hard to describe!

While trapping and Aikido's controls all fall under the heading of "immobilzation attacks," Wing Chun trapping is not quite the same thing. Or, to put it another way, you could use trapping as a way to enter and setup for the kind of things you'd do in Daito Ryu or BJJ.

My best advice to you is to either find footage on the web of Wing Chun people, or sit in on a wing chun class. Then you will have a better idea about what I am talking about. Because as I've said trwice already, it's difficult to describe.

CNYMike
08-09-2005, 11:31 AM
What considers trapping...
More and more widespread is becoming the view (that coming from usually ex-JKD; ex-Wing Chun) guys that the TRAPPING RANGE does not exist in actual combat. There is clinchdistance which begins with a grab and ends with body-to-body contact but it's all unseparable and moving rather uncontrollably. View that the fight can be held in the trapping distance e.g. chi-sao is an illusion.

Waaaaaaaalllll, the sense I've got from my instructors, who are all versed in the JKD/Wing Chun/trapping things, is not that trapping range doesn't exist, but that you can blast through ti very quickly --- too close or too far and you can't do it. You can also foil a trap with a boxer's shoulder role.

That doesn't mean trapping doesn't exist -- just tools for the tool box. Whether you use that tool or not depends on the situation. Chi Sao also provides touch-sensitivity you will need at closer range anyway. And if the other person deosn't know how to get out of traps and walks into one (Sif Francis Fong is famous for saying, "You don't trap people -- people trap themselves") ... evileyes Need I say more?

DustinAcuff
08-09-2005, 12:58 PM
Mike, I have actually been taught some basic Wing Chun style trapping skills by some Tai Chi/Qi Gong people I trained with briefly. I Wing Chun student with a month or two could probably tie me into knots, but I have been exposed to it and am quite familiar with the concepts. I tend to agree with whoever said that trapping range is very narrow and easily blasted through, but if you keep the Aiki circular footwork any attack they bring will be at trapping range, and they either have to turn their center's toward you or attack across their own body. And if they continuously attack from these positions then they indeed do trap themselves right into breaks and throws :)

akiy
08-09-2005, 03:41 PM
Just a quick note that the posts regarding "kata training" have been split off into this new thread here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8671

-- Jun

CNYMike
08-09-2005, 07:32 PM
Mike, I have actually been taught some basic Wing Chun style trapping skills by some Tai Chi/Qi Gong people I trained with briefly. I Wing Chun student with a month or two could probably tie me into knots, but I have been exposed to it and am quite familiar with the concepts ....

:o NOW you tell me!

;) :)

CNYMike
08-09-2005, 07:36 PM
.... I tend to agree with whoever said that trapping range is very narrow and easily blasted through ....

I never disagreed with it; I had the very same message drilled into me in Wing Chun and Kali classes. Like I said, tools for the tool box.

Trapping, BTW, alos figures into the empty hand portion of Kali, and something else an Aiki* person would have to contend with in that situation, so it all comes back to the original topic. :)

Jay Mills
08-10-2005, 03:05 AM
The only time you will ever need to use Wing Chun type traps is if you happen to find yourself fighting a Wing Chun man who is occupying center line. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time, one never needs to trap the arms at all. This is why over the many years to follow, when people hear JKD concepts people refer to trapping, they are talking about an entry, straight blast, head butting, kneeing and elbowing…not some pak sao or lop sao. Guru Inosanto, Paul Vunak, Burt Richardson, Erik Paulson, and Matt Thornton all train this way, thats basically what JKD concepts are all about, simple, direct, effectiveness We have found that trapping is really more of a range than a technique, so many things were dropped or re worked from traditional Wing Chun trapping methods. If anything, Kali, Muay Thai, and BJJ seem to be used more these days in terms of stand up trapping/grappling/clinch range, as far as a JKD concepts man goes that is.

Jorx
08-10-2005, 04:05 AM
Correction: my data says at least Thornton and Paulson have even abandoned the straight blast and entry concepts as they are addressed in JKD or JKD concepts.

Jay Mills
08-10-2005, 03:44 PM
Matt and Erik are using a variation called a "boxing blast" it is used prior to a neck tie up. Actually you will see many MMA/NHB fighters doing this.

Jay Mills
08-10-2005, 04:26 PM
By the way, if any of you are ever up around Portland, drop in the Straight Blast Gym! Matt Thornton is one of the best when it comes to training with aliveness!

P.S. Tell him the guys at JKDU sent ya, youll get an extra hard workout lol

CNYMike
08-10-2005, 08:01 PM
By the way, if any of you are ever up around Portland ....

Thanks, but which one? Maine or Oregon? :)

Jay Mills
08-11-2005, 02:15 AM
Oregon

www.straightblastgym.com
www.straightblastgym.net

You may also want to check out Team Quest in the same area, ask for Robert Follis.

http://www.tqfc.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

Jorx
08-11-2005, 02:33 AM
Yup Jay, but it's a different thing:) At least Matt himself has said it's a different thing and if you watch Belfort vs. Silva then...

Jay Mills
08-11-2005, 04:13 AM
Well Jorx, i have trained at the Straight Blast Gym as well as with Erik Paulson, and im telling you from experience that they are doing a variation upon the same theme! It still boils down to range before the clinch, sometimes you blast through using elbows knees and heabutts to a neck tie, sometimes you use a boxing blast, and other times your at the clinch without eaither. It all depends upon posistion and how things are unfolding, thats aliveness!
Yea Belfort trained to be an olympic boxer, what did ya think he was doing that night, typical boxing blast! Good way to get a 44 sec knockout against a fighter like Silva!

Jorx
08-11-2005, 06:03 AM
You misunderstood me Jay:)
I didn't mean it is different from the boxing blast, I meant Matt and Rodney King for example differentiate the straight blast from the boxing blast.

Jay Mills
08-11-2005, 06:43 AM
Very true, sorry for the misunderstanding!

I also wanted to add that in the middle of one of Guru Inosantos classes a student remarked that trapping seemed useless! Dan replyed by saying that he wouldnt use trapping in an unarmed encounter, BUT, it is an excellent tool for knife and stick fighting, it develops great attributes!

graham butt
11-20-2008, 02:53 PM
QUOTE]Jo staff might be interesting, but I don't think too many aikidoka probably really know how to apply the Jo very well against escrima sticks moving at full speed.[/QUOTE]

I disagree...

basically to say that as long as both practitioners have the same skill level, then the fight could be classed as a draw as they both are using 4 foot weapons (its just that the kali guy is using his in two separate pieces).

when the kali guy strikes yokomen, jo guy would defend, step back and strike, thus opening the distance.

Jo guy strikes yokomen, kali guy blocks with his left stick, steps in and strikes with his right whilst maintaining the contact with the left (thus closing the distance)

To say that one one has an advantage over the other is nonsense. they both in theory can win!

I remember a time working in a nightclub where two people were fighting. One person picked up a bottle and the other guy who was fighting came charging at him and he dropped it. He was the one then becoming scared and unable to follow through his attack.

The guy with the bottle HAD the advantage! He also could have been an untrained fighter, who know. Maybe a trained fighter would have acted differently, ie, didn't fight in the first place.

jennifer paige smith
11-20-2008, 04:32 PM
Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU

Cynrod
11-20-2008, 06:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU

:D You hit the target Jensei.

jennifer paige smith
11-20-2008, 06:31 PM
:D You hit the target Jensei.

Aw, shucks. Garsh,garsh,garsh.....:o

thanks

CitoMaramba
11-21-2008, 03:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU

Of course sometimes.. this is what happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvWD4mAwiOk

Note: I love the way that this scene is actually two homages to previous films, the first of course is the scene previously posted from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (even the music is the same), but the second is a nod to "Star Wars IV: A New Hope" (Where Han and Chewie chase the Stormtroopers in the Death Star).
Had to provide additional commentary as per the guidelines for posting video links.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
11-21-2008, 04:47 AM
Boxing wise. Escrima or Kali will win. It is called Mano Mano. The idea of escrima is you train with weapons both hands with either kali (Sticks) or Gulok (machette), the better one gets the shorter the weapon gets, until it becomes a Patalim (dagger length) and balisong (butterfly knives). Hence by the time the 'Escrimador' will get to empty hand they are very good, very fast, and overwhelming. Not really a good idea for static aikido. Aikidoka has to move with escrimador.

We have practiced with boken and Jo against Kali. Boken wise or aikiken wise it is pretty even. I find it hard that I commit to cut or tsuki with either yokomen or shomen, and the escrimador was just feinting. A lot Ai utch (mutual kill) though, and sore foreheads if trained with speed. There is a strong wood almost mystical to the point of legendary called kamagong. The Filipinos used to support train tracks with it, and apparently if one throws it in water, it sinks. Very strong, it can actually take on a boken with weight of the cuts. When the escrimador uses walong palo (eight cuts) it will rain hits, very quick very hard to block with a boken. I tcan even break a good boken if the kamagong is used. However if aikidoka uses a katana it will be different story. Then again the escrimador can shift to the Gulok, and it could get even again.

With the Jo, escrimador lost. I broke my set of Kalis. Very expensive mistake. I had to wait til my next trip to the Phils to get new ones. :(
Escrimadors cannot dodge or block Toma huch, and we sent kalis flying with normal jo blocks. The length aspect is a winner. The escrimador found it hard to enter.

Taijutsu aikidoka wins, especially the grappling aspect of it. our ikyo, nikyo, and sankyo is just too irresistable. Escrimadors have a karate and judo version of grappling. Our aikido grappling is just beautifully genuine and effective.

just my two cents :p

Props to you Cromwell. I used to train extensively in Arnis & Mano-mano and I have to say, I'm not sure if I know more than you do (and I'm a Filipino). I admire you for having a strong interest in our martial arts.

jennifer paige smith
11-21-2008, 09:54 AM
Of course sometimes.. this is what happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvWD4mAwiOk

Note: I love the way that this scene is actually two homages to previous films, the first of course is the scene previously posted from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (even the music is the same), but the second is a nod to "Star Wars IV: A New Hope" (Where Han and Chewie chase the Stormtroopers in the Death Star).
Had to provide additional commentary as per the guidelines for posting video links.

Oh yes.....I remember my sankyu demo so well,too....and that randori at the end. Whew.....They just don't do it like that anymore...LOL.

OK, I'll leave this thread to the 'big dogs'.

gregg block
11-21-2008, 07:33 PM
Whats next... wait let me guess...ah.... Aikido vs a Ninja Turtle?

........well Aikido techniques would work well against say Leonardo but... Donatello is a totally different story!!!

wideawakedreamer
11-21-2008, 10:34 PM
O-sensei vs. Master Splinter - that's what I would like to see!:)

Enrique Antonio Reyes
11-23-2008, 03:52 AM
O-sensei vs. Master Splinter - that's what I would like to see!:)

he he he. Maybe Aikido vs. BJJ (Aikidoka stays still waiting for an attack, Jitz guy drops to his back waiting for the Aikidoka to go down onto his guard.:hypno:

raul rodrigo
11-23-2008, 06:06 AM
he he he. Maybe Aikido vs. BJJ (Aikidoka stays still waiting for an attack, Jitz guy drops to his back waiting for the Aikidoka to go down onto his guard.:hypno:

After five minutes of that, they give up and go for a beer.

R

Kevin Leavitt
11-23-2008, 10:35 AM
Too funny....but you know, I could see this happening!

graham butt
11-24-2008, 06:16 PM
Another point i would like to add to this, it's a passageby miyamoto musashi, from the book of 5 rings!

People put virtue into the length of a long sword/jo etc and think they can win by their distance from their opponent. For this reason they prefer a longer weapon, a common saing " A hand longer by an inch has the advantage" is information quoted by those who do not the martial arts. Without knowing the principles of the martial arts, they would win at a distance by using a longer sword. Because of their weak hearts.
When the opponent rushes in then the longer your sword the less efficient it becomes. Accordingly you will be unable to handle your sword freely, it becomes so much baggage, and you will be at a disadvantage to a man with a short sword.

What if you were in a place with short top, bottom and sides with your long sword? or if you were intent on using a long sword butonly had a short sword you may come to doubt your martial art and enter a bad frame of mind.

Remember the large goes with the small, it is not a matter of disliking the longer weapons, but a matter of disliking the mind that PREFERS the long, a long sword is like having many men in battle, while the short sword is only a few men, Do large and small armies meet in battle?

In martial arts we dislike such one-siednessand narrowness of minds!

M Butt
11-25-2008, 01:13 PM
"....as long as both practitioners have the same skill level, then the fight could be classed as a draw as they both are using 4 foot weapons (its just that the kali guy is using his in two separate pieces).

when the kali guy strikes yokomen, jo guy would defend, step back and strike, thus opening the distance.

Jo guy strikes yokomen, kali guy blocks with his left stick, steps in and strikes with his right whilst maintaining the contact with the left (thus closing the distance)...."

I agree with Graham Butt on this. I think that as long as the guy with the shorter weapons can penetrate the maximum reach of the longer weapon, then he is straight onto the advantage. However, if the guy with the longer weapon can keep the opponent on the tip of his weapon, then he will remain on the advantage and will result in a draw.

I think it would also be possible to utilise empty hands aikido against kali, despite the speed of kali but again this all boils down the skill level of the practitioners. i find kali very useful for sticky contact and trapping, as i did with aikido and when sparring, can feel where my opponent wants to go whether using aikido or kali.

Basically my opinion is that it all boils down to the skill of both practitioners.

graham butt
11-27-2008, 04:30 PM
good point, it does boil down to the skill of the practitioners, but the same can be said for anything. There's many factors in this, Speed, Skill, Technique, 'Advantages'/'Disadvantages', The possibility of weight in weapons, length in weapons. Too many things to think about, My point in general now after thinking about this is that it boils down to the Shallow minded-ness of those who believe that one would win over the other because of... the length of a weapon.

M Butt
11-28-2008, 03:04 AM
I agree with what you say but i'm merely speaking from the point of view that both practitioners are equally skilled in the use of their OWN weapons. I wonder how well they'd do if you gave the kali guy the jo and the aikido guy the kali sticks, just to mix it up a bit. They'd both still be using 4 feet of weaponry but just the opposite of what they're used to.

I agree with what you say though. Is it not remarkable how some people take a genuine discussion and blow it into a full scale argument?

Boris Spassky
02-11-2010, 01:15 PM
That said, I think aikido is very complimentary to escrima/kali.



The late Shihan John Damian of Imua Ki Aikido taught arnis as well as Aikido and he and his son Maestro Tokuji Damian had some real interesting techniques for the mix.

Interesting post-
James

mickeygelum
02-11-2010, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote:

he he he. Maybe Aikido vs. BJJ (Aikidoka stays still waiting for an attack, Jitz guy drops to his back waiting for the Aikidoka to go down onto his guard.

After five minutes of that, they give up and go for a beer.

R


That is hilarious...thanks for the laugh!

Train well,

Mickey

George S. Ledyard
02-12-2010, 02:04 PM
We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts? Even my sensei has little idea how it could be done without suffering too much. Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?

I'm sorry... we are talking about Aikido vs Kali, Silat. Arnis with blades maybe? You might as well be talking about Aikido vs Cuisinart.

One of my friends witnessed a discussion between a couple special ops guys, one as SAS veteran and the other a Silat practitioner. The SAS fellow maintained that he could access his handgun fast enough to defeat a guy with a knife.

The Silat fellow asked for a ballpoint pen and put it in his pocket. Then he told the SAS guy to go for his sidearm. Before he could clear leather and put the Silat guy on point, the Silat guy had taken the pen, entered and repeatedly "cut" the SAS guy. The folks watching this counted 18 "cuts" each of which would have been either disabling in some way or life threatening. That's in under two seconds. Try your Aikido on that...

The closest relationship between Aikido and Kali can be seen in the Doces Pares system of escrima. I trained with Chris Petrilli, Grandmaster Canete's senior American student. They have all the strikes that any stick / knife system would be expected to have. But close in, these guys have a repertoire that is staggering. Canete had an Aikido background, but no one seems to be able to say exactly who he trained with. Anyway, he combined the Aikido with his escrima and called it "Escrido". The number of close quarters strikes, entanglements, locks, and throws these guys have at their disposal is mind blowing. But the application of technique is still stick against stick. The idea that you might prevail empty hand against a skilled practitioner with a stick(s) or Knife(s) is ludicrous.

Garth Jones
02-13-2010, 12:21 AM
I'm sorry... we are talking about Aikido vs Kali, Silat. Arnis with blades maybe? You might as well be talking about Aikido vs Cuisinart.

One of my friends witnessed a discussion between a couple special ops guys, one as SAS veteran and the other a Silat practitioner. The SAS fellow maintained that he could access his handgun fast enough to defeat a guy with a knife.

The Silat fellow asked for a ballpoint pen and put it in his pocket. Then he told the SAS guy to go for his sidearm. Before he could clear leather and put the Silat guy on point, the Silat guy had taken the pen, entered and repeatedly "cut" the SAS guy. The folks watching this counted 18 "cuts" each of which would have been either disabling in some way or life threatening. That's in under two seconds. Try your Aikido on that...


I have a friend who has trained extensively in the use of firearms in self defense (pistol, non-military). Their standard target shooting distance is 21 feet. That is because any closer and an attacker with a knife will be able to close the distance and stab/cut before the person with the pistol can clear leather and shoot. Closer than 21 feet it is better to dodge, run, surrender, etc. but going for the gun will get you killed.

I've played around with knife takeaways (more than just the standard aikido forms) to know that I would only try if 'for real' if I thought I was going to die anyway.

Melchizedek
02-13-2010, 04:14 AM
Aikido & Escrima.., you can use them both in war if you live it doesn’t mean you win., but you can never tell if the attacks at you is wave after waves of attacks, & ammunition is all ready depleted & the reenforcement is 6 hrs. delayed coming from Basilan, and they were all armed w/ cris as their secondary weapon and have the knowledge of arnis, luckily some Soldiers knows Aikido and Kamagong or Yakal MA. Known as Filipino Martial Arts. They were able to hold them back till the support fire raining of 105mm coming from the mobile artillery support unit. and the waves of attack forced to regroup.

(if anyone knows the story about Hulo sulu “Comet” at Camp General Bautista.)

it’s better not to mention any names my deepest respect to my mates and others may you all rest in peace. Their sacrifices will not be in vain.

This is just among many encounters of the AFP and thanks to US Marine Corp. for their Sincere assistance that they’re doing to our country and may terrorism seizes to know that
Violence + Violence = no one wins.

(1) (http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&q=philippines&gw=30&ll=12.867031,121.766552&spn=30.665477,41.132813&z=5&t=h&utm_campaign=en_GB&utm_medium=ha&utm_source=en_GB-ha-apac-apac-sk-mpmkr&utm_term=philippine%20map)

(2) (http://jsotf-p.blogspot.com/2009/07/afp-jsotf-p-and-sulu-residents-unite.html)

(3) (http://www.bulatlat.com/main/2009/08/28/us-troops-in-philippines-america-pursues-expansionism-protects-economic-interests/)

Michael Fitzgerald
02-13-2010, 04:23 AM
We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts? Even my sensei has little idea how it could be done without suffering too much. Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?

a more appropriate comparison MAY be Sinawali Vs Ni-To.

Cliff Judge
02-16-2010, 11:16 AM
I trained with some decent knife-based FMA guys for about a year.

What I found really interesting about the system was that it wasn't a self-defense system, or a martial way - it was just about killing a man with a blade. The training was built around that. Everybody had a belt full of aluminum training knives, and a gentle touch with the blade was considered a "kill."

So everyone trains to be as light and quick as possible - it's a game of seeking angles of attack where your partner can't trap you or find an angle on you.

There wasn't any concept of center-to-center connection or breaking balance or anything like that at the level I was training at. When we did takedowns, throws, or grappling type stuff (grappling doesn't last very long when there are blades handy) my instructor - a neurosurgeon by trade - didn't seem to have a very deep understanding of the mechanics.

I can say that on a couple of occasions I did some things that were very surprising to my seniors by applying what I have learned in Aikido. But the game was fundamentally about kill or be killed (1000 times in the space of a minute) with cold steel. Two different martial arts that exist in two different worlds.

At the end of the day, learning how to better manifest Aikido is a much more interesting and productive endeavor, IMO, than learning how to defend myself in a manner that places me in serious legal trouble as well as risk for God only knows whatever bloodborn pathogens I just got all over my body.