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stratos patsakis
07-11-2005, 05:54 PM
i teach martial arts in greece(taekwondo and hapkido)
and recently a friend of mine,gave me as present the book of master tochei's ki in daily life.
iam really astonished by this book and master tochei and aikido!!
i have never imagined that the human body hides so much energy!
my english is bad so i hope you understand me and explain me some things!how i can find my one spot?i must think the spot below my abs?or i must imagine it?i don't understand the way...i must think only the spot below the abs and nothing else?how can i begin practising my ki?with the seiza position and the breathing teqniques as the book says?please help me!i hope all martial arts people read this book for master tochei!it's a gift of life for us all!!!!
i also wish to God to give master tochei health and happiness to continue teaching us and write books for a lot of years!!!!!!i wish someday i learn aikido!!!!!!!! :ai: :ki: :do:

DevinHammer
07-11-2005, 06:25 PM
Try this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965342530/qid=1121127804/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/103-2084810-8805430?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It may be easier to understand and has basic exercises for beginners.

DustinAcuff
07-11-2005, 09:54 PM
here we go in a nutshell.

first sit seiza with good posture
breath in deeply through your nose so that your abdomen expands instead of your ribs. if you pay attention you can feel something or another going on about 2 inches below your navel.
as you exhale imagine that something you feel is traveling up your spine and making a "light" in your head above and between your eyes.

when you are done training/no longer need your ki reverse the process and turn the light off. it may take a couple minutes both on and off. after a while you should be able to do it at will.
this is how I was taught and it seems to work.

stratos patsakis
07-12-2005, 12:06 AM
thank you all for helping me and for answering!!!
when i sit in seiza position i must breath in
from the nose and breath out from the mouth?
will i feel something when i'm doing the breathing teqniques?
how will i understand that i'm doing it the right way?
please help me i want to learn a lot about ki!!!
thank you very much
:ai: :ki: :do:

bkedelen
07-12-2005, 09:44 AM
wow

rob_liberti
07-12-2005, 12:57 PM
I would recommend that you attend Mike Sigman's workshop. You can find a thread about it in the same general section of aikiweb this thread is in.

Rob

Mary Eastland
07-12-2005, 01:15 PM
I would recommend that you attend Mike Sigman's workshop. You can find a thread about it in the same general section of aikiweb this thread is in.

Rob

Ohhh, give me a break.

Just because someone can talk endlessly about kokyu does not mean he understands Ki.

Ki is more than just being able to demonstrate ki tricks. Anyone who is intolerant and mean doesn't get it. Stick with Tohei...
Mary

Ron Tisdale
07-12-2005, 01:19 PM
Ok, I understand that some people just don't get Mike's manner...but is a blatent personal attack really needed? And if the ki and kokyu things under discussion are actually physical manipulations of our bodies...what makes anyone think that any peronal value of good or bad has anything to do with 'getting it'?

Complete non-sequitor. Unless 'ki' is some etherial plasma created by our great goodness....and somehow, I just don't see that.

Ron :(

kironin
07-12-2005, 02:41 PM
probably more to the point, why would you recommend someone go all the way to Colorado from Greece for a workshop ?

If Mike was doing a workshop in Greece, I would say yeah sure go.


otherwise, the first suggestion to spend a small amount and buy Carol's book "Ki in Aikido: A Sampler of Ki Exercises" as a followup to Ki in Daily Life was a great idea.

also
Stratos you can check here
Ki Training Books (http://www.aikiweb.com/reviews/showcat.php?cat=8)

I recommend Will Reed's first book though it's out of print
Ki: A Practical Guide for Westerners

Dirk Hanss
07-12-2005, 03:45 PM
I am not a ki specialist, but maybe my simple explanation can help as a start - and later on you can turn around by 180 ti find the right way. ;)

Ki is much more than one simple thing, although it is all energy.

physically, ki is the energy coming from the hara (again physically the balance point. First step is to train stability, as you probably do it in TWD and hapkido. In Aikido we use body moves (tai sabaki) and others to train that. Arms and legs are just not strong. They are just the gearing. The power comes from the center of gravity.
in terms of psychology, Ki is the potential to let the power flow with the right intense at the right moment. Very similar to focusing all the energy in one point at Taekwondo strikes and kicks. There are some training methods (rowing, also seiza for concentration) and you will see, that beginners are often taught to do techniques with open fingers, which could be somehow dangerous for both sides in self defense situations, but energy flows then foreward. If you close hands too much of it turns back to you.
spirituality is somthing I acannot explain. If you do your exercises more often, you might find an idea. Maybe you can see it as the extension of both of the other two.


So ki should not be new for anybody training martial arts. Many aikido teachers start with developing ki early in order to prepare the effectiveness of the techniques. Others first try to install effective techniques and then enhance them by developing ki. There are good arguments for both ways, but I am too senior to give advice here.

There are plenty of aikido schools in Athens. So maybe you get in contact with them. Some of them might be open for cross seminars. One weekend you show them about Hapkido which has many similar throws and pins as they come from Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu. And the other weekend it i s an Aikido seminar, maybe focused on ki.

I do not very much about the aikido teachers in Athens, I just missed Janet Clifts last seminar in Wiesbaden.

Hope that helps a bit

Dirk

Mary Eastland
07-12-2005, 03:58 PM
Ok, I understand that some people just don't get Mike's manner...but is a blatent personal attack really needed? And if the ki and kokyu things under discussion are actually physical manipulations of our bodies...what makes anyone think that any peronal value of good or bad has anything to do with 'getting it'?

Complete non-sequitor. Unless 'ki' is some etherial plasma created by our great goodness....and somehow, I just don't see that.

Ron :(

Normally I would agree.
I don't mean to insult Mike personally. What I am trying to say is that ki devlopment can change how we are in the world. If he is as advanced in Ki as he seems to claim to be......I think he would be sweeter. :) (as Maruyama Sensei used to say).
It is easy to get caught up in the testing aspect or the challenge.


I do believe that ki development can change us for the better and that it is not just about who is stronger and who has secret wisdom and is doing it right. I believe it comes from experiencing a dependable feeling and then learning to rely and trust that feeling.

I don't believe anyone can give it to you. I still believe you have to train to learn to keep devloping it.

Mary

Mike Sigman
07-12-2005, 04:28 PM
I don't mean to insult Mike personally. ;) What I am trying to say is that ki devlopment can change how we are in the world. If he is as advanced in Ki as he seems to claim to be......I think he would be sweeter. :) Can you give us any reasoning that supports your "think" on this? Would you say O-Sensei was "sweet"? How about some of Tohei's remarks that are far more offensive than anything I've ever said? Would you say Tohei is "sweet" or that he simply has no ki??? I do believe that ki development can change us for the better Why do you believe that, Mary? BTW, I've asked you for explanations on how some ki things work and you've never replied. You teach, don't you? I assume you know, of course, since I doubt you would be unethical enough to teach something you don't know. I don't believe anyone can give it to you. I still believe you have to train to learn to keep devloping it. Do you think that Ki is unexplainable, Mary? If not, could you explain what it is and how it does it? Thanks.

Mike "Sweetie" Sigman

Mike Sigman
07-12-2005, 04:35 PM
probably more to the point, why would you recommend someone go all the way to Colorado from Greece for a workshop ? Oblique shot, Craig. Besides, I gave criteria for whom I would accept at the workshop. :)
otherwise, the first suggestion to spend a small amount and buy Carol's book "Ki in Aikido: A Sampler of Ki Exercises" as a followup to Ki in Daily Life was a great idea. Hmmmm. I've seen some of these books and quite frankly I don't think they tell you how to do anything. Doing exercises without any clue of what goes on inside is not different than doing Aikido or any other art relying on ki/kokyu without a clue. Maybe there's some reasoning to "just do the exercises" that I don't see and which you'd share?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

kironin
07-12-2005, 05:41 PM
Oblique shot, Craig. Besides, I gave criteria for whom I would accept at the workshop. :) Hmmmm. I've seen some of these books and quite frankly I don't think they tell you how to do anything. Doing exercises without any clue of what goes on inside is not different than doing Aikido or any other art relying on ki/kokyu without a clue. Maybe there's some reasoning to "just do the exercises" that I don't see and which you'd share?

Regards,
Mike Sigman


Maybe you would be ahead of the game Mike by not spending your time replying to every thread that pops up.

You somehow have interpreted my response that was a mild compliment into an "oblique shot" ? It's an offense to you that the guy shouldn't be expected travel halfway around the globe ? :rolleyes:

If you have read Carol's book and are willing to reread it again and give a review with helpful specific criticisms, I think that could be useful for a third edition. Certainly feedback improved the second edition.

Mike Sigman
07-12-2005, 06:33 PM
Maybe you would be ahead of the game Mike by not spending your time replying to every thread that pops up. Possibly. Why don't you tell me in the future which posts containing references to me I should answer? Thanks.
You somehow have interpreted my response that was a mild compliment into an "oblique shot" ? It's an offense to you that the guy shouldn't be expected travel halfway around the globe ? :rolleyes: No, I meant Rob's suggestion, which you were also replying to, that someone who has never done Aikido should come to an Aikido-focused workshop. If you have read Carol's book and are willing to reread it again and give a review with helpful specific criticisms, I think that could be useful for a third edition. Certainly feedback improved the second edition. I bought one of her books at the suggestion of an Aikidoist I knew in Philly. I went through the book looking for something substantive and found nothing. It's possible that if someone simply believes "relax" and other vague directions will develop your ki, they will perhaps think her book is helpful. I think she means well.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

rob_liberti
07-12-2005, 07:19 PM
wow :)

maikerus
07-12-2005, 08:47 PM
Ohhh, give me a break.

Just because someone can talk endlessly about kokyu does not mean he understands Ki.

Ki is more than just being able to demonstrate ki tricks. Anyone who is intolerant and mean doesn't get it. Stick with Tohei...
Mary

Hmm...I have formed the opinion after reading many of Mike's posts that he has done a lot of research into this thing called Ki and I would personally find it interesting to hear about.

I have been to seminars where sports therapists get up and give an hour presentation on the best ways to quickly and successfully heal after joint injuries. How to best wrap ankles and wrists and toes and fingers. They weren't aikido specialists (although they did try and put an "Aikido Slant" in there presentation) but were worth listening to because of what they do know.

I think Mike might be the same...in his area of research, anyway.

Just a thought,

--Michael

Dan Rubin
07-13-2005, 12:00 AM
"somebody explain me about ki"
i teach martial arts in greece(taekwondo and hapkido)

Stratos:

Since you teach hapKIdo, how do YOU explain ki?

Dan

Mark Uttech
07-13-2005, 07:33 AM
Explaining ki can be difficult, it can go on and on and take you down many roads. I can understand how many beginning aikido students can become very curious about "ki". My own search for the meaning/explanation of ki came to a contented stop when I found this definition of ki from the book:
"Branching Streams Flow In The Darkness". A simple description was: "The lid must fit the pot". Sometimes we only need to find the description that works for us. In gassho.

Mike Sigman
07-13-2005, 09:38 AM
Explaining ki can be difficult, it can go on and on and take you down many roads. I can understand how many beginning aikido students can become very curious about "ki". My own search for the meaning/explanation of ki came to a contented stop when I found this definition of ki from the book:
"Branching Streams Flow In The Darkness". A simple description was: "The lid must fit the pot". Sometimes we only need to find the description that works for us. In gassho. Hmmmmm...I believe the quote that leads to True Enlightenment (tm) is "Why is an Orange?". Think about it.

Mike "How does THAT lid fit your pot" Sigman
;)

stratos patsakis
07-13-2005, 09:52 AM
dan rubin nobody in the past has never teach me anything about ki!!!i live in greece and you know here martial arts are many steps behind the other contries!so i try to learn something about ki on my own!i've never imagined that something like ki exists!i may be a teacher but i also learn too!i have open mind for anything that will help me to be better as a person and as a teacher!thank you!

rob_liberti
07-13-2005, 10:21 AM
"Why is an Orange?" becuase we needed another color like "Purple" which didn't have a rhyme.

Stratos, I was under the impression that Yamaguchi sensei taught a seminar in Greece once. Can't you find an aikido dojo there? I would imagine someone there was pretty serious about aikido to get him to come.

Rob

kironin
07-13-2005, 11:46 AM
I bought one of her books at the suggestion of an Aikidoist I knew in Philly. I went through the book looking for something substantive and found nothing. It's possible that if someone simply believes "relax" and other vague directions will develop your ki, they will perhaps think her book is helpful. I think she means well.

Regards,
Mike Sigman


I am sure it can be improved, that's why detailed criticism would be good. It sounds like you expectations were a little high for such a basic book. Many people already practicing Aikido found the book very useful. It has not been my experience that many people "grok" technically detailed descriptions well. Some do. but many just do all the mechanical things and still are tense. The point of the book was the actual doing of the simple exercises to gain an understanding of what was meant by what you call the "vague descriptions". One person's vague description can be another's visualization that makes things fall in place.

The book probably would be much stronger if every exercise had extensive technical footnotes/endnotes or a second technical half, but I think that would have required a lot more participation by her teacher who has now passed away unfortunately.

Mike Sigman
07-13-2005, 12:07 PM
I am sure it can be improved, that's why detailed criticism would be good. It sounds like you expectations were a little high for such a basic book. Many people already practicing Aikido found the book very useful. Could you do me a favor and name a few people who have gained substantive skills from reading the book? I'd like to see what they can do. I put out two sets (3 tapes in each set) of fairly extensive, detailed descriptions of how to do a few elementary things. I never met anyone who was able to perform these things correctly that they learned from the video. I quit selling the tapes because I was only interested in results. With a book, it would have been impossible... a vague book, out of the question. I gave her book to a local library as part of a large lot of books I donated, so I don't have the book in front of me to re-read and make suggestions. I believe I did exchange a few emails with her a few years ago, but I'm not left with the impression that she has a very results-oriented mind. My impression was more that she was a 'believer' and defensive about her beliefs without great concern for facts. It has not been my experience that many people "grok" technically detailed descriptions well. Some do. but many just do all the mechanical things and still are tense. The point of the book was the actual doing of the simple exercises to gain an understanding of what was meant by what you call the "vague descriptions". One person's vague description can be another's visualization that makes things fall in place. And to support your point, can you name a few people who have demonstrable results from what they read in the book?
The book probably would be much stronger if every exercise had extensive technical footnotes/endnotes or a second technical half, but I think that would have required a lot more participation by her teacher who has now passed away unfortunately. Frankly, I got the impression that she herself didn't understand these things and was offering 'rituals' as a method to arriving at abilities. She doesn't offer any hypostheses, predictions, descriptions of substantive and reproducible methods and results, etc. Shouldn't ki and kokyu things be subject to scientific method and hence describeable and demonstrable? Have you ever seen her physical abilities?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

bkedelen
07-13-2005, 01:50 PM
Hey better yet, since the JREF million dollar prize remains unclaimed (http://www.randi.org/research/), go ahead and show me anyone in the world who has demonstrable ki abilities.

Mike Sigman
07-13-2005, 02:01 PM
Hey better yet, since the JREF million dollar prize remains unclaimed (http://www.randi.org/research/), go ahead and show me anyone in the world who has demonstrable ki abilities. Maybe you should do a quick search of the archives and see the list of things that are considered normal ki abilities, as opposed to the woo-woo definition so many westerners assume is the definition, Benjamin. I have demonstrable ki abilities and so do a lot of people I know.

Interestingly enough, there was a sceptical book by a David Eisenberg called "Encounters with Qi" that I enjoyed and which had an anecdote near the end about the woo-woo type qi..... Eisenberg was seated in a chair facing the other way and admitted that he "felt something". However, that part of "qi" is a small part of the overall qi, even though many westerners think that's all qi/ki is.

Mike

bkedelen
07-13-2005, 02:15 PM
Do you just not need the money?

Dan Rubin
07-13-2005, 03:11 PM
dan rubin nobody in the past has never teach me anything about ki!!!i live in greece and you know here martial arts are many steps behind the other contries!so i try to learn something about ki on my own!i've never imagined that something like ki exists!i may be a teacher but i also learn too!i have open mind for anything that will help me to be better as a person and as a teacher!thank you!
Stratos,

I admire your interest in learning about ki. But often the answers to our questions are right in front of us, we just don't see them. So let me re-phrase my question:

When your students ask you for a definition of the term "Hapkido," what is your answer?

stratos patsakis
07-13-2005, 06:31 PM
dan rubin my students here in greece don't care about the word ki at all!!i can't expain the word hapkido beacuse my english is bad!the word ki and anything comes with it like energy and stuff like this seems a little strange to students here.i don't know why but when i was a student i didn't care too!i beleive that i've been taught the wrong way.so it is time now ti fill the gaps!i think very seriously to find a dojo in athens and strt aikido if i find the time!i work 2 jobs beacause i save money to open my own dojo someday!i hope....!my students from little children to the older guys care only for fighting kicking and punching!maybe i teached them wrong i don't know...but i'm still young only 26 and a lot of years to come for improving my skills and teaching!it seems so strange to you that i don't know anyhting about ki?i feel lucky that the book ki in daily life of master TOHEI'S fell in my hands!and something else....i love martial arts more than my life and i want to teach the right way i'm nit just passing by because i have nothing else to do!don't misunderstood me beacuse i don't know anything about ki!thank you very much for helping me!

Dan Rubin
07-13-2005, 06:54 PM
my students here in greece don't care about the word ki at all!!the word ki and anything comes with it like energy and stuff like this seems a little strange to students here.
I think that is true of the majority of aikido students everywhere.
i don't know why but when i was a student i didn't care too!i beleive that i've been taught the wrong way.so it is time now ti fill the gaps!
I admire you for that. I wish you good luck.

Dan

Mark Uttech
07-14-2005, 06:14 AM
actually an orange is nothing to think about.

Aragorn
07-14-2005, 09:00 PM
Oh?
Are u sure?
I like oranges.
;)
Regards,
:ai: :ki: :do: