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07-04-2005, 05:42 PM
I basically just want to hear some of your views on this...
Recently in our dojo, we've been having another sensei come in every now and then for class. (I guess he just started working in the area or something) But anyway , one class our usual sensei was absent for family reasons, so 2 of the other shodans in the dojo and this other sensei decided to take turns teaching class. They each taught for about 30 minutes of the class.
Well , we had been focusing mainly on shihonage the whole class , and when the new sensei got his turn to teach , he introduced a concept that was new to me in aikido. First off , we started from katatetori grip (cross grip on the wrist) Then this sensei would take his hand (him being nage) and he would thrust it towards our eyes. He would then say " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" , and from there, he went on to do shihonage.
He later stated that this was a more effective method for aikido because it gave uke a motive for holding on to your wrist. He also explained that his former sensei used alot of methods like these because they were much more effective.
But then he explained that too much of this can cause u to be brutal and that was the reason he stopped going to that sensei was because , his sensei was too rough for the traditional style of aikido. ;
I actually like these methods better because they would be alot more effective in a real life situation.
I love the dojo I'm at and i would probably never switch but i do like these concepts quite a bit.
Anyway, im not exactly sure why im writing this. I would like to hear about your take on it , and similar experiences if u like.
If you take someone's eyes out you are going to jail, every time.
If you do shihonage you are most likely not going to jail, and as an added plus you haven't taken anyone's eyes out. My guess is that that sensei has never really taken anyone's eyes out and is just adding things to shiho.
And taking someone's eyes out isn't 'more effective'...it just means that the next guy will shoot you from behind or split you in two with an axe or some such. You'll always be known as the freak who took someone's eyes out, not a good chatup line I assure you.
Anyway, taking eyes out is a fine skill and you need a cow or sheep head to practice it.
07-04-2005, 06:28 PM
I think u misunderstood me. It wasnt actually that he was going to take out nage's eyes , he just used that as a device to give them a motive for holding on to his wrist. He wasnt teaching us how to take out someones eyes.
07-04-2005, 06:59 PM
I think Mark was being a bit of a smart-alec.... :) The idea of making an offensive motion in order to cement one's connection with uke is not new or unique. Many Aikido styles/schools use it. Not sure what else I could tell you. You can explore your own options every time you connect with uke, look to see where they might be vulnerable to a strike, or eye-gouging.
And, you won't need to kill any innocent sheep... :D
07-04-2005, 07:28 PM
I am not sure I understand...he thrusts he fingers at your eyes and then *says* "don't let go or you lose your eyes"??
Isn't that a little late? Wouldn't you have already blocked or moved away and let go or something? I can't see just poking at your eyes making you want to hang on...although as Joseph said there are many ways of keeping your uke holding on or attached to you.
Can't visualize this very well...sorry. But the whole speaking thing (if that is the case) usually happens after the guy has been pinned. Something like..."roll over or I will dislocate your shoulder" or something like that.
07-04-2005, 08:16 PM
No, it's what Joseph said. It's using your intent (and uke's ability to sense your intent) to effect the technique. Without the (martial) intent, shihonage (or whatever) simply becomes a waltz. ;)
07-04-2005, 08:20 PM
That was the way I learned shiho-nage in Kyushindo. And, in disaster terms, shihonage is probably more violent than a poke in the eyes :) Anyway, it is a very good concept that can be applied in every technique. You don't have to go for the eyes, but you do have to extend towards uke a little to get the desired effect. I would listen to that guy and find out more of what he has because it could be good.
07-04-2005, 08:42 PM
Am I just being dense here?
If someone starts to go towards my eyes and I have one hand free I am going to do my best to block that.
And although I might keep hanging on with my other hand because I am focussing on blocking, I still don't understand if the person actually says " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" or if that is a description of the discraction and there is no actual speech involved.
I also have no problem with the intent to affect the technique. When we do shihonage there is a movement of the grasped hand at the same time as a punch between the eyes in order to force a block. The block distracts from the fact that uke is holding on. The movement of the grasped hand is to affect ukes balance so that the next movement is easier and more controlled.
If the don't block then I'll hit them between the eyes and in the ensuing confusion as uke sees stars I will do shihonage.
I don't get this "motive for holding on to your wrist" ... key word here being *motive*. I've always understood the atemi to be a distraction or a place to take uke out if they don't block...not a motive.
This may be semantics...but it is confusing the Aiki out of me <wry grin>
07-04-2005, 08:54 PM
Sounds like you need less technique and more "feeling" ;)
Without intent, there is no motive
No motive, no feeling (i.e. connection).
No feeling, no aiki.
Or at least how I was taught... :freaky:
07-04-2005, 09:12 PM
I'm still stuck at the "is this guy speaking" question.
I have no problem with intent and feeling within technique. The only speaking I expect is a good kiai from the gut.
07-04-2005, 09:23 PM
Am I just being dense here?
If someone starts to go towards my eyes and I have one hand free I am going to do my best to block that....I also have no problem with the intent to affect the technique...If they don't block then I'll hit them between the eyes and in the ensuing confusion as uke sees stars I will do shihonage.I don't get this "motive for holding on to your wrist" ... key word here being *motive*. I've always understood the atemi to be a distraction or a place to take uke out if they don't block...not a motive. This may be semantics...but it is confusing the Aiki out of me <wry grin>
Maybe not dense, but certainly wrapped up in the semantics of the initial poster. If you look at the highlighted portion of your quote, I think that you'll find yourself in agreement with the original poster's instructor. You are probably overreacting to the instructors embellishment about "poking eyes out". This is in fact quite hard to do. While the embellishment is a little over the top, it is the idea behind it, which you yourself have displayed, that is important. Don't get too wrapped up in trivialities (if that's actually a word?).
07-04-2005, 09:24 PM
Like I said, the motive for uke to hold on, is due to uke's ability to feel that if he were to let go, he'd get poked in the eyes. Just like an atemi gives uke the motive to respond. If uke not move, he get hit. :D
Maybe he was speaking thusly as a "wake up" call for uke...? I know I sometimes do that... :p
07-04-2005, 09:55 PM
To be honest I'm tending to agree with Michael also. Maybe it's something in the way it's being explained. But this just makes no sense from a viewpoint of practicality, unless I am just misinterpreting the description.
First off , we started from katatetori grip (cross grip on the wrist) Then this sensei would take his hand (him being nage) and he would thrust it towards our eyes. He would then say " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" , and from there, he went on to do shihonage.
He later stated that this was a more effective method for aikido because it gave uke a motive for holding on to your wrist.
I don't get how telling me that "I will get my eye poked out if I don't hold onto the wrist" works, since if you thrust your fist at my face I'll initially block it and start positioning myself to resist and counter if you stand there talking to me without having taken my balance.
Unless I am missing something, in the midst of talking you'd be eating mat imho.
Though I can understand how the initial thrust can force Uke to hold onto the wrist for an instant due to physical and mental distraction, I don't see how giving him an "or else" proposition is going to entice him to continue holding on if it does not serve him, since he could just as easily poke out your eye with his other hand during this exchange unless he is made unable to do so by some other means.
Just my 2 cents.
07-04-2005, 10:11 PM
From where I'm sitting, it looks like a case of seeing the forest for the trees.
Sometimes it is necessary to say things like that from a teaching/demonstration point of view, because sometimes people just plain "don't see it", "don't know", "don't get it", "don't understand". i.e. it's a pedagogical tool.
Otherwise it would simply be unspoken communication between uke and this sensei only, and everyone else would be thinking (and seeing) something else.
07-04-2005, 10:13 PM
If you're in an actual physical confrontation, telling your attacker, "if you don't hold on I'll poke your eyes out", won't actually work. However, in a class during the execution of a set of prearrange motions, explaining that uke would want to maintain that contact through his grip in order to avoid, however momentarily getting "poked in the eye", thereby giving nage an opportunity to exploit, is not outside the paradigm of Aikido. While you might disagree with the particular phrase, "poke your eyes out", the sentiment that it represents is valid.
07-04-2005, 10:16 PM
I think everyone is kinda missing the point. The sensei is nage. The person attacking has grabbed his wrist. This is when he goes for the eyes. And this is what keeps uke holding on , (keeping his hand away from their eyes) When he goes for their eyes it turns their arm over for shihonage.
The whole speaking thing ... he only said that when he was explaining it the first time , its not like he said it for every technique, he was just explaining it to us like im explaining it to u now
hope this makes it clearer
07-04-2005, 10:20 PM
Makes perfect sense now.
07-04-2005, 10:34 PM
Oh...he's going for the eyes with the hand being held. Perfect sense.
--Michael...now much less confused....and glad I wasn't the only one.
07-04-2005, 10:36 PM
lol its ok michael , i didnt make it very clear
07-04-2005, 11:02 PM
..... First off , we started from katatetori grip (cross grip on the wrist) Then this sensei would take his hand (him being nage) and he would thrust it towards our eyes. He would then say " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" , and from there, he went on to do shihonage.
It sounds like a valid explanation for the wrist grab. I haven't come across that in the dojos I go to, but it is a variation on the theme of nage striking first, uke responding, and nage does the technique off that, although that comes in training. Pretty violent, though, so you want to think carefully about whether you want that tool in your tool box.
I wouldn't worry too much about the explanation for katate dori. EVERY self defense system in every culture has that, because it is a vlaid attack or part of an attack ie grab and strike. I also think it gives a relatively simple reference point for sutdying basic techniques even if it implies high level timing (pinning uke to the ground before he has a chance to fire the other hand -- not an easy thing to do). Don't sweat it.
07-05-2005, 12:02 AM
i was talking to michael stuempel
07-05-2005, 05:49 AM
I was with Michael for a while on it, until the explaination, makes more sense now. You can go for the eyes or for a head level atemi, I agree, without the intent of atemi, there is no motive for nage to "protect" himself, or no openning for uke to continue the technique.
07-05-2005, 10:58 AM
i was talking to michael stuempel
I was answering your original post, not the one addressed to Mr. Stuempel; I know you weren't talking to me.
07-05-2005, 11:03 AM
.... without the intent of atemi, there is no motive for nage to "protect" himself, or no openning for uke to continue the technique.
Maybe. Maybe uke just wants to restrain one arm and hit you with the other arm, so they're not grabbing to protect themselves and threaten you. That makes more sense to me; the explanation that they're stopping your strike, well, it's kinda valid, but there are better defenses against strikes out there. But l like I said, don't sweat it.
Mike "I know you are talking to Michael Stuempel" Gallagher.
07-05-2005, 11:59 AM
good points Mike (not Michael Stuempel :))
07-05-2005, 12:49 PM
lol sry mike gallagher
07-06-2005, 02:46 AM
There is not much, I can add.
"The first move is a tsuki", I read recently. And I do not see, why most of you thought, it could only be the free hand.
Well to me the phrase is quite familiar. generally said: "Uke should not try to loose contact, as he has to protect himself. If not he might get pain." In some kokyu-nage we are told: "If you do not jump, I 'll grap your balls."
But this phrase is followed by: "Naturally in Aikido we do not do this (hurt, kill, etc.). We change the technique. But at the moment we are practicing this shiho-nage and uke should behave well." It is not that sensei is repeating this in each time, but often enough that no one of us should be confused. So in each lesson where such techniques are trained more often, at least once.
So just saying " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers", should have a plan B.If you are attacked by a much stronger, well trained or armed fellow, and you do not have the skills to change, but the attacker does not hold your wrist, yes punch with your fingers into the eyes or wherever you get him.
In training you do it step by step, and when you are confident in the uke's grip you can increase the power of the atemi, always being ready to stop to avoid accidents.
Perhaps you might be faced to a drunk, weak person, who just graps your hand to talk to you, but of course, you do not like it. You try a light shiho-nage, just to make clear your wishes, but as "uke" does not grip firmly, you poke out his/her eyes. :disgust:
Legal aspects may differ from country to country, but that is definitely not the "do" of "aiki" that I want to go.
Well the example is somehow extreme. I just wanted to point out that the idea is understood as common for Aikido, and I accept that 30 minutes are not enough to explain each aspect in detail. But a teacher should be careful with what his students might understand and what might be results.
07-06-2005, 07:15 AM
Hi Paige & everyone.
Try this - (Very simplistically explained) From the Ai Hanmi attack the irimi movement you describe breaks down into three initial parts
1). Change your MAI in relation to your attackers (Uke's), this will move them 'out of their time' and into yours, simultaneously creating both mental and physical imbalance in Uke.
2). At the same time, using TE KATANA (hand blade) and unbendable arm in a small circle manner, redirect uke's energy by turning/bending their wrist towards them.
3). With uke imbalanced and his energy redirected, using your open fingers as a channel for :) your energy flow, turn his arm/hand still gripping your wrist in a circular manner towards his face/eyes.
1). Encourages uke to retain his grip. so as not to be hit
2). Disturbs his balance even more. ('Leads' him diagonally towards his so called 'third leg position') where he cannot brace himself.
This leads to any technique you may need.
As stated this 'irimi' movement is explained in a very basic manner. But I think the fact that the 'Move' was brought up, illustrates the point that maybe too much emphasis is placed on 'technique'. And not enough on position, attaining uke's imbalance (both mentally and physically), form, redirection of energy etc - all the things which allow you to be in a position to apply 'technique'.
07-06-2005, 06:19 PM
good points Mike (not Michael Stuempel :))
Thanks. But that said, there's one little caveat to add: IMHO, if your sensei uses the grab-as-strike-defense setup, you do what he tells you to do. You may not like it, but he (or she) is the sensei, not you, so you do what they tell you. Period. At least IMO.
And who knows? Now that I think about it, maybe ther are noodnigs dumb enough to try and grab a punch with one hand, and you can go straight into kokyu nage. Which is a beauiful thing if you (a) get it to work and (b) there's a brick wall in the scenario. Think about it. :)
07-07-2005, 05:01 PM
I simply love kokyu nage....and kaiten nage! I find kokyu nage hard to do, but kaiten nage much easier from atemi.
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