PDA

View Full Version : Aikido versus Knees and elbows


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Tubig
07-04-2005, 01:08 AM
We have a classic begginer at the dojo.

19 years old, full of energy, keen, wants to know how handle kicks, knees, and elbow shots.

I showed him some techniques with front, side, round house, stomp, and hook kicks. I adviced him that any kick higher than the hip; avoid or enter then irimi or kokyu nage.

However I had a blank because ikyo is my only efficient technique for uppercut elbow, side elbow and yokomen elbow shots. I even hit an even more blank about knee (muay thai) types, where one's head is locked by the opponents arms whilst the knees start stabbing up the abdomen. My best adviced him was never let this happen to him.

My fellow aikidokas we might need some efficient advice on this one. How does one awase or blend with such attacks? :confused:

Amir Krause
07-04-2005, 03:42 AM
knee (muay thai) types, where one's head is locked by the opponents arms whilst the knees start stabbing up the abdomen.

I would say the latest possible timing one can recommend is before the head is locked, as the attacker is pulling you through your head, neck & shoulders towards him (in fact, he is both pulling you and coming towards you). Instead of trying to resist the pull, you can enter and perform a technique (outwards Irimi Nage or sore-age seem like options for me).
From my ow experience, when I practiced the knee techniques during a TKD lessons, one could often block the knees using his hands and then try to find an opening in the clinch and perform a counter technique. However, this latter exercise is not suited for beginners.

As for the elbow attacks, I would think the real problem is evading in time, once you are outside the line of attack, there numerous possibilities. For example, for an uppercut elbow, you can evade from either direction and preform sore-age, or you could evade from the outside and perform a strangulation technique or some other headlock.

Similar concepts apply for the other elbow techniques: blend and evade and enter to perform a technique on his head/body. Note that these attacks are performed at very short distances, and the main difficulty is not to perform a technique but just to identify the attack on time and evade it.

In any case, I would not consider any of these situations as situations a beginner should start his learning with, I would only start teaching them to good students with 2-3 years experience and would adjust my expectations.

Amir

xuzen
07-04-2005, 03:53 AM
Let me try:

For uppercut elbow: How about ushiro ate (ushiro nage). You avoid the uppercut by going to the rear side and the give him a rear throw... for those with sadistic streak throw in a hadaka jime or okuri eri jime just for fun.

If you are locked in a head lock ala Muay Thai style... I guess sutemi type of throw (uki waza or uki otoshi) will do... if opportunity present itself... maybe a minor reaping tech (e.g. kosoto gari)? OK OK, for a more aikido response... how about shomen ate (irimi zuki)... ?

I am sure there are more responses... but these are stuff that come to my mind at the first instance.

Boon.

Kevin Leavitt
07-04-2005, 12:35 PM
Have fun exploring the options! I love it when I get to meet a newcomer who is exploring the paradigms of aikido.

While the solutions (principles) are all in aikido, the hard part is getting the new student to look past all the techniques and learn the principles that aikido has to offer.

I personally find that once you enter to the position of the clinch or your head is being held down and knees are flying up, that there are things that are typically not within the repetoire of traditional aikido technique that work much better. That said the principles are there! Have fun exploring!

aikigirl10
07-04-2005, 12:53 PM
Im definitely going to bring this up at my dojo b/c we never really practice against kicks

Kevin Leavitt
07-04-2005, 01:12 PM
from "normal aikido" range, a kick is really nothing more than a shomenuchi or yokomenuchi. You would enter just the same, using irmi and tenkan.

However, once you move into "grappling" range, and you are doing knees and elbows, it gets difficult to move using irmi and tenkan. Usually you start worrying about keeping your posture and you start trying to control the center of the person you are clinching with. Try to prevent it being a fight. Aikido hip throws (koshi) can work well. If you bent over at the waist and he has grabbed your head your gonna have to lower your hips and try and bring your center back under yourself again and get into a clinch again, while protecting yourself against knees and uppercuts. Irimi and tenkan are actually still there however!

Tubig
07-04-2005, 05:42 PM
I went to training last night as one does, and I asked one of my sempais who is san dan. He actually disappointed me with his response. He said that that is one of the weaknesses in aikido. In fact he said that he would not use aikido in this case. I could not believe it, in fact I refuse to believe it. There must be a way to counter that Muay thai headlock attack with knees and elbows using aikido. I can imagine Osensei would take out his wooden spoon and spank him on the forehead for such blasphemy. :disgust:

mj
07-04-2005, 06:25 PM
I'm not sure it is always wise to try to blend with the strongest part of the attack.

Tubig
07-04-2005, 06:52 PM
I agree with you there MJ. One can not really blend with this Muay thai lock. So how do we defend against it using aiki?

Joe Bowen
07-04-2005, 08:33 PM
I went to training last night as one does, and I asked one of my sempai who is sandan. He actually disappointed me with his response. He said that that is one of the weaknesses in aikido. In fact he said that he would not use aikido in this case. I could not believe it; in fact I refuse to believe it. There must be a way to counter that Mauy Thai headlock attack with knees and elbows using aikido....

Be at ease....There are ways to deal with Mauy Thai. My Aikido instructor has had an illustrious career as a fairly prominent fighter in Korea. He started the first Mauy Thai federations here and even won a few Mauy Thai tournaments in Thailand. Two of his Maui Thai students competed in the 1998 Asia Games in Bangkok and won the Silver and the Bronze in Mauy Thai. So he knows quite a bit about Mauy Thai. His Aikido practice started back in the late 80's under Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei, so he knows about Aikido. Put the two together and you get Aikido-esque ways to deal with Mauy Thai.
I'll endeavor to convey some of our practice but it will not be easy.... :p

Evading the Clinch...as uke starts to wrap his arms around your neck, press up on one of the elbows, while lowering your center and duck your head under his elbow. This puts you in a good position to slide behind him and apply Iriminage or whatever...

If your in the Clinch...Lower your center, get your hips under you shoulders, close the distance between your hips and uke's hips (the closer your hips are together the harder it is for uke to throw a strong knee). If you can get your center lower then uke's hips, then you can straighten out your legs and you should displace his balance and you can give him something akin to aikiotoshi...

Breaking the Clinch...This is interesting and not necessarily easy :uch: ...If you're in the clinch you can break it utilizing a whole body coordinated movement. Alternate your left/right side, but for discussion purposes we'll use this specific example...start by getting your hips under your shoulders as much as possible, this allows your body to move as a coordinated whole rather than independent parts. Insert your right hand in-between uke's elbows; extend your left arm behind you and rotate the left side of your body away from uke while simultaneously extending your right side through uke placing your right forearm on the right side of uke's head/neck. Your extension will allow you to dislodge uke's grip and allow you the freedom to move into some pretty solid Aikido techniques.

Just some food for thought...there are many more examples out there and an infinite number of possibilities. Have fun sorting it all out..... :D

Tubig
07-04-2005, 10:21 PM
Joseph... Mate! that is awesome. I will give that a go tonite. Cheers :)

Kevin Leavitt
07-05-2005, 05:56 AM
The issue we typically run into in aikido is that we don't usually practice a fight from this position. I think what Joseph said is good stuff...give it a try.

I would not go so far as to say it is a weakness of aikido from an aikido perspective that we don't practice from this range, but a weakness of using aikido as a fighting system.

Aikido is typcially practticed as a DO art, so methodolgies typcially center around practices that do the best to convey the DO.

I too like to explore all ranges of the fight from weapons, to striking distance, to grappling distance. I am right now exploring grappling distance and ground fighting. Might want to check out Jason Delucia's videos...Lynn Seiser gave them a good review, I think they will show you options of aikido closer in.

Tubig
07-05-2005, 07:14 PM
Joseph... Mate! Your suggestions on the clinch worked. My whole dojo is happy with the result, even my sempai was impressed. Aikido at this distance is hard, but the bloody thing worked. When Sensei gets back from his seminar abroad we will show him, chances are he probably knows something on the clinch as well, but we'll show him anyway. Cheers mate! :)

I suggest anyone that reads this thread should try it. Anyone that has an aikido technique against the muay thai clinch, defence against sharp elbows and heavy knees should write in this thread. Osensei always said that aiki is universal and complete; us aikidokas should help each other fill in the gaps and fill in the blanks. Spread the techniques that will make our aikido complete and really universal.

Joe Bowen
07-05-2005, 07:26 PM
Outstanding! I'm glad you were able to extrapolate the technique from my description. I wasn't sure if the descriptions were accurate enough, but good to hear that they were sufficient..... :D

Tubig
07-05-2005, 07:34 PM
Joseph, if you have anymore techniques against the clinch I suggest "spread the Love" mate!

I am really curious and impress about your type of aikido, do you have any websites or links that shows a visual on your ryu or dojo's style?

Joe Bowen
07-05-2005, 09:56 PM
Not exactly. You can check out the following websites to get more information about us, but you won't see too much in terms of actual waza.

http://www.aikido.co.kr/
http://www.geocities.com/yongsanaikikai/

We're pretty much your standard Aikikai organization, with just a few folks having some unique expertise....
Youn Sensei, Chief instructor of the Korea Aikido Federation is really quite a good Aikido instructor, practicing with him has been pretty phenomenal. Youn Sensei's previous experience in Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Keoktugi and Mauy Thai add a real sense of validation for Aikido here in the Korean Martial Arts community. There is a link to a biographical interview I did with him on my Yongsanaikikai page. Additionally, we have a guy named Rupert Atkinson who recently published a book on Aikido in the UK. He has been here for about 10 years. His Aikido is very good as well, plus his background in Judo, Wing Chun Kung Fu and Jujitsu, makes learning from him fun as well. Enjoy the sites, and if you ever fancy a holiday in exotic Korea, give us a ring.... :p

joe

xuzen
07-06-2005, 12:31 AM
Dear Tubig,

I too was experimenting with the Muay Thai style type clinch yesterday night after class, unfortunately none of us are true Muay Thai practitioner... but we try anyway.

My adjutant sensei's response:
1) Just as I am about to go into the clinch, using the hiriki no yosei ichi type movement ala Yoshinkan syllabus, he blocked my clinch. Then he followed using a irimi-tsuki technique which he applied on my chin and titled my head backwards which resulted in a throw.

2) Next we tried when uke already got tori in the clinch and tori is busy applying the knee strike to the ribs. Again, adjutant sensei uses his tegatana to block my upward knee strikes, then using a leg sweep coupled with iriminage, he did put me down.

However, after some more experimenting, we decided aikido works best just before the clinch... when uke is coming in for the clinch. When uke has already got into the clinch... some modification (which include some atemi) are needed.

It was nice to experiment. But then, I never underestimate the Muay Thai guys. They can be tough nut to crack.

Boon.

Stethomas
07-06-2005, 02:43 AM
Hi All

My advise would be to just keep it simple, technique from uppercut.

KAITENAGE.

From a headlock you can always just bring your opposite arm over & across his face.

Stethomas
07-06-2005, 04:50 AM
Not sure about the others, newby LOL. Some excellent feedback here though. Will try tonight, cheers.

batemanb
07-06-2005, 09:50 AM
Was having a few beers and a couple of bottles of wine with a friend a few months back. He practices boxing and kick boxing and finally got round to the "I'm really curious to know how Aikido stacks against...".

I shouldn't have succumbed, but did. Whilst I'm no expert, I didn't come off too badly (and I know it's how good I am at my art vs how good he is at his art, and we were drunk etc.). One of the things he wanted to try was the head clinch pulling me onto a rising knee. I entered straight away using one arm to protect/ push against him, the other arm grabbed his crown jewels and squeezed hard, stopped the attack pretty quickly. Atemi worked for me :D

MAybe not the best way, but it was an instinctive reaction :D


rgds

Bryan

Ron Tisdale
07-06-2005, 12:29 PM
I like sokumen iriminage and shiho for the uppercut. Sokomen entry works well to set up the shiho...

Ron

Tubig
07-06-2005, 08:28 PM
Bryan mate... I think I will leave the crown jewels as my last resort. It is just not cricket mate. :)

batemanb
07-07-2005, 02:03 AM
Bryan mate... I think I will leave the crown jewels as my last resort. It is just not cricket mate. :)

Cromwell,

I was just demonstrating to him that there's no competition in Aikido, therefore no rules either ;) :D


rgds

Bryan

crusecontrl
07-07-2005, 11:13 AM
in the clinch you can put either hand across the body and on the hip and push a bit so (right hand right hip) to prevent knees and keep the person off balance. now if you are bigger than your opp. drop a bit to get under their hips give them a hug and pick them up slightly so that their toes barely touch the mat/floor make sure to keep your head down and tight against the body to prevent getting punched. work it from there, same for the smaller person hug in tight with hands wrapped around the small of the back hug tight with hands and push with head in chest, most cases the opp will fall to the ground and let go

DustinAcuff
07-07-2005, 12:57 PM
I cannot speak for Aikido 100% because I am not aikido and have a variety of different techniques that you may or may not have depending on your dojo but.....
1. get off the line
2. irimi
3. tenkan
4. blend & intercept
5. cut
For the clench: irimi, raise one of uke's elbows and cut the other one down, make tenkan as the raise and cut is made. SLOWLY in practice or uke will fly head over heels. This can be done at any time. If you so desire and uke's hands stay clenched go into suwariwaza and cut both elbows to center. Very important: you must maintain posture even if uke is still attached behind your head.
For elbows: how many techniques involve the wrist near your shoulder position? ikkyo nikyo yonkyo shihonage numerous garami kotegeashi... the list goes on. you can "catch" any of these from an elbow strike. For upwards strikes/uppercuts just evade the elbow and you have iriminage and tenchi nage already set up.
Knees: you have no balanceon one foot. find yourself a good pressurepoint and atemi HARD or just come up the face and cut downward and backwards while making irimi.

Just incase you didn't notice these are just the basic principles of how aikido works--in reality you dont get "techniques" per se unless you have very trained or they just happen but as long as you apply the principles you can easily hold your own against anyone as long as you have to.

crusecontrl
07-07-2005, 01:37 PM
I cannot speak for Aikido 100% because I am not aikido and have a variety of different techniques that you may or may not have depending on your dojo but.....
1. get off the line
2. irimi
3. tenkan
4. blend & intercept
5. cut
For the clench: irimi, raise one of uke's elbows and cut the other one down, make tenkan as the raise and cut is made. SLOWLY in practice or uke will fly head over heels. This can be done at any time. If you so desire and uke's hands stay clenched go into suwariwaza and cut both elbows to center. Very important: you must maintain posture even if uke is still attached behind your head.
For elbows: how many techniques involve the wrist near your shoulder position? ikkyo nikyo yonkyo shihonage numerous garami kotegeashi... the list goes on. you can "catch" any of these from an elbow strike. For upwards strikes/uppercuts just evade the elbow and you have iriminage and tenchi nage already set up.
Knees: you have no balanceon one foot. find yourself a good pressurepoint and atemi HARD or just come up the face and cut downward and backwards while making irimi.

Just incase you didn't notice these are just the basic principles of how aikido works--in reality you dont get "techniques" per se unless you have very trained or they just happen but as long as you apply the principles you can easily hold your own against anyone as long as you have to.
have you ever had some one blasting away at you with knees i mean really GOOOD knees i dare you to try and find a PP and hit it precisely and not end up on the floor a nice knee to the liver. solurplex (sp) and you are bent in half. you do all you can to block and defend them yes but come one be realistic in what is going on here

--we are all one--

DustinAcuff
07-07-2005, 01:51 PM
I am being realistic. I have had good knees coming at me. there are a number of PPs that are quite easy to hit as well as areas that will just drop you to your knees. my favorite of which is the trachea. if you play by their rules and stay on the line and try to out fight them then you are right, you will get your butt handed to you. but if you dont play by their rules and go in with the mentality that since this is a real situation (aka life and death in your mind) you will do anything to survive and not win a trophy/bout/whatever you will more than likely be the one who walks out. when you are fighting for a title it is alot diffrent than fighting to survive.

crusecontrl
07-07-2005, 01:55 PM
I am being realistic. I have had good knees coming at me. there are a number of PPs that are quite easy to hit as well as areas that will just drop you to your knees. my favorite of which is the trachea. if you play by their rules and stay on the line and try to out fight them then you are right, you will get your butt handed to you. but if you dont play by their rules and go in with the mentality that since this is a real situation (aka life and death in your mind) you will do anything to survive and not win a trophy/bout/whatever you will more than likely be the one who walks out. when you are fighting for a title it is alot diffrent than fighting to survive.

yes the neck good one but fast and furious with your head being pulled everywhich way **head goes body follows** and im blasting away you still think you could hit the trach with enough force to make me stop :dead: ??


--we are all one--

DustinAcuff
07-07-2005, 02:44 PM
maybe maybe not. say i went for your eye with a thumb instead? I am not and I repeat NOT saying that anyone can deal with a Muai Thai kickboxer who is skilled at this moment in time, but I am saying that it can be and has been done before. Every art has flaws even aikido. also you have changed the context of the question being asked: I was referring to free standing knees, not knees being thrown from a clench. knees from a clench are a little diffrent. you best defence is to break the clench and end it as fast as possible any way you can.

Honestly, I find debate like this intresting but rather pointless. In the world of What If then everything is possible. Theoretically the first knee that lands will cause major trauma in my skull and later result in death. It is possible that you will slip on a stray rock as you are throwing the knee. I'm just pointing out that if this is kept up we could have 5 more pages of I bet my what if can beat your what if like we already do in so many other pages.

crusecontrl
07-07-2005, 02:49 PM
maybe maybe not. say i went for your eye with a thumb instead? I am not and I repeat NOT saying that anyone can deal with a Muai Thai kickboxer who is skilled at this moment in time, but I am saying that it can be and has been done before. Every art has flaws even aikido. also you have changed the context of the question being asked: I was referring to free standing knees, not knees being thrown from a clench. knees from a clench are a little diffrent. you best defence is to break the clench and end it as fast as possible any way you can.

Honestly, I find debate like this intresting but rather pointless. In the world of What If then everything is possible. Theoretically the first knee that lands will cause major trauma in my skull and later result in death. It is possible that you will slip on a stray rock as you are throwing the knee. I'm just pointing out that if this is kept up we could have 5 more pages of I bet my what if can beat your what if like we already do in so many other pages.

Standing O for this man outstanding

Kevin Leavitt
07-07-2005, 04:39 PM
Dustin Acuff wrote: For the clench: irimi, raise one of uke's elbows and cut the other one down, make tenkan as the raise and cut is made. SLOWLY in practice or uke will fly head over heels. This can be done at any time. If you so desire and uke's hands stay clenched go into suwariwaza and cut both elbows to center. Very important: you must maintain posture even if uke is still attached behind your head.
For elbows: how many techniques involve the wrist near your shoulder position? ikkyo nikyo yonkyo shihonage numerous garami kotegeashi... the list goes on. you can "catch" any of these from an elbow strike. For upwards strikes/uppercuts just evade the elbow and you have iriminage and tenchi nage already set up.
Knees: you have no balanceon one foot. find yourself a good pressurepoint and atemi HARD or just come up the face and cut downward and backwards while making irimi.

I am not sure how much experience you have with experienced muay thai guys or grapplers, but it is not as easy as you are making it sound.

Certainly and technically you are correct on many of your points, yes the correct thing to do is to "move off line" and behind your opponent. (irimi/tenkan)

Here is the issue: When a good Muay Thai guy has you down like that, he is owning your center, you are bent at the waist and he is controlling you. There is no way you can pop an elbow up and tenkan when he has you down like this properly. You will have to drop you knees down, guarding against knee strikes and bring you hips back foward to get back your posture. While you are doing this, he will switch up on you, pummel down through your arms and get you in double underhooks if you are not careful, negating your ability to simply irimi behind him.

It is a tough position to be in, and not quite as easy as irimi. I usually start controlling the hips as Matt Paul decribes...do that, or drop my hips down and shoot for a double leg take down. good luck!

For elbows, upper cuts, hooks etc. Your not going to "catch" these things from a good Muay Thai guy...the are much too fast, so you need to worry about your foot work and moving to a place that they cannot hurt you first. If you are in that range, the clinch is your best friend. If not, then get out of his range. It is that simple.

Muay Thai is a sport, Aikido is a Way. Don't confuse the two and try to use them interchangably. A Muay Thai guy has rules that cause him to fight the way he does. Aikido as a way has a strategy that would never have you committing to enter his range. Why not walk away, or move using your foot work to a point of safety, waiting for him to over commit and attack, then irimi and tenkan your heart out! If you did this in the ring as a strategy, the ref would call you for stalling since a good Muay Thai guy will not engage from the distance you want to fight from either so you are forced to go into his range. What works best at that range? Muay Thai...not aikido!

Right tools for the right job! That is why MMA guys are training in Escrima, Kali, Muay Thai, and BJJ ...so they can do these things.

Aikido is wondeful as a way (DO)...and yes the principles are universal, but as a strategy...not a good idea necesarily if you are looking to engage someone in trading blows or submission fighting!

as you apply the principles you can easily hold your own against anyone as long as you have to.

Ok, in "theory" this is true...but in reality it is not. As in life, experience, short cuts, cheating, and just being lucky will when the fight. May not win the war...but certainly the fight...and sometimes that is all that matters depending on the situation!

If all you needed was principles to be successful, Business and economic College professors would all be millionaires!

Kevin Leavitt
07-07-2005, 04:49 PM
Every art has flaws even aikido. also you have changed the context of the question being asked: I was referring to free standing knees, not knees being thrown from a clench. knees from a clench are a little diffrent.

But that was the question of the thread starter...knees from the clinch...head clinch specifically.

Honestly, I find debate like this intresting but rather pointless. In the world of What If then everything is possible.

Again, the thread starter asked a very specific "what if".

I really do not like to "jump all over a post", but when I see things I disagree with, I will counter it constructively.

It's not about saying my "what if will beat your what if". Simply about giving good advice. I think the point is, that experienced Fighters make the situation or the "game" much more difficult than..."oh you just need to apply what you learn in aikido and irimi/tenkan".

It gives people the a false sense of security in there technique, contributes to their frustration level when the fail to succeed, and gives aikido a bad name when aikidoka fail trying to apply principles/technique into another realm of fighting strategy designed to defeat many of the things we hold dear to our hearts in aikido. That is all.

No hard feelings!

Kevin Leavitt
07-07-2005, 04:56 PM
if you dont play by their rules and go in with the mentality that since this is a real situation (aka life and death in your mind) you will do anything to survive and not win a trophy/bout/whatever you will more than likely be the one who walks out. when you are fighting for a title it is alot diffrent than fighting to survive.

And here is the crux of the situation. I tend to agree with you here for the most part. (I wrote my response while you posted yours, so I kinda repeated this in mine as well).

Aikidoka get slammed constantly by MMA guys and sport fighters because they fall prey to playing by their rules and trying to apply aikido in the MMA paradigm. Aikido is a Way....a training methodology designed to convey principles the O'Sensei and his senior students thought were important to pass on to the world. yes, the techniques and principles are relevant to fighting arts and yes, you can interpret just about anything done in any art as being a part of aikido since the principles are universal.

You should, however, keep focused on the goals of aikido and realize that the way it is taught does not make for a very good fighter..even a "no rules fighter" where all the nasty things that you talk about can be done. There are better ways to put the "attack chains" and strategies together if this is your intent.

Aikido does do a good job of making good citizens, and demonstrating the intent and principles of aikido!

DustinAcuff
07-08-2005, 08:09 PM
Kevin, I agree with you on all points.
The bottom line is Muai Thai is an extremely effective martial art. Frankly you are in trouble if you EVER find yourself there in reality because someoen who can kick you and snap your femur/ribs/arms/skull in half has just gained control of the center.
I also have made it clear in a variety of spots that I am not Aikido and I lack the ability to speak for it 100% of the time. I am a Daito practitioner. My art is around 1000 years old and designed for ANYONE to be able to remove a trained samurai from the battlefield. I believe that since Aikido is kind of a cousin/daughter art of Daito and contains many of the same techniques that it could be used in the same manner if the practitioner simply knew how.
I am not saying that I can beat anything on two legs or any given MMAist or Muai Thai fighter. As I have mentioned, I have been there done that in Muai Thai and I have alot of respect for it as an art.
As to you saying that Aikido does not work in close, I disagree. I have been taught how my techniques actually work better and faster close in the knee/elbow/grapple range. Could be the Daito, could just be my sensei, but either way it does work.
If I had a choice between engage or run then I will run. But if I am backed into a corner so to speak then I will embrace being a jitsu (not a do) and do my absolute best to be the one who walks away, maybe not unhurt, maybe not felling so great, but still walking away. I would like it very much if I was able to neutralize an attacker without hurting them, but I did not ask to be attacked and if I let you attack me you are not going to give me flowers and a box of chocolates; If I must remove you from the gene pool to survive then so be it, I am very sorry about it but better you than me.
This is one point where I honestly believe that Aikido has lost some of its roots. O Sensei is remembered as he was in the twilight of his life, the kind, caring, compassionate, wise old man that he became, not someone who in his youth had an incredible temper or someone who had made martial arts his entire life and slowly changed into a softer person. Infact his younger years are in many aspects kind of a secret that no one talks about, another one is Daito -- many modern aikido schools concider us to be very brutal and I have heard people try to deny any association.

Best,
Dustin

Tubig
07-08-2005, 09:00 PM
The original purpose of the thread is to find a way to use aikido against elbows and knees, especially the Muay thai clinch. Having dicussed where aiki can go wrong, let us hear your expertise, please share your alternative techniques how to defend and beat the clinch. Aikido is considered a mature martial arts. Most aikidokas that I know, met, and encountered did other martial arts first, then converted to aiki later. So it is safe to conclude that most aikidokas can kick, punch, and even do the clinch themselves.

Given all the factors and arguments that aiki is not effective enough for that distance(which I say I disagree), and also considering the variables that most aikidokas can do other martial arts. How can we use the concept of aiki against the clinch.

It is very easy to point out a problem to a technique or an art. However a good martial artist can point out a solution to the very same problem.

So what is the defence against the clinch?

L. Camejo
07-08-2005, 10:28 PM
Good post Cromwell.

Personally I think if someone brainwashes himself into believing that his art is a "Do" manifestation of the older jutsu and therefore has no martial/self defence applicability and therefore useless for self defence then that person has already mentally admitted defeat to any aggressor and by his own mind will be easily defeated.

Lol. If Kevin's generalisations about "Do" arts and their practical uselessness for fighting or self defence (because they are designed as a Way to teach O-sensei's principles) were correct I would without a doubt be dead today, since I would be guilty of what I described in the above paragraph. Please folks remember that there are many "Do" manifestations of Aikido (and Instructors on this path also) that will stand on equal practical footing with anything else out there claiming to be effective "fighting" arts. "Do" does not automatically translate to "BS SD training" - that is up to you and your instructor, the goals you want to achieve and the methods you employ to get there. The Do should always embody and encompass the principles and pragmatism of the Jutsu. Even though we do have some sorry expressions of the jutsu aspects out there in Aikido world, this is surely not the case in all camps. It is a Way, but it is a BU-do - Martial Way. If the Martial is nonexistent in the Way, then anything claiming to be Budo has in fact lost it's way (shameless pun I know);).

To deal with a clinch knee strike - Dustin had a good option if used with a quick, deep entry on the outside weak line, with Tori keeping his hips low and back straight (meaning MT guy never gets the torso to bend his way to start). The cut down on the elbow is good for kuzushi and once the MT guy has grabbed and is serious about kneeing you it will be difficult to quickly disengage if Tori knows what he is doing. Even without the cut down kuzushi, all Tori needs to do is enter hard on the outside, strike/throwing up across the neck/jaw line/temple with gyaku gamae ate (sokumen) while sweeping MT guy's striking thigh and leg upward with the other hand (under the knee) which also helps to place his weight upwards and backwards across his weak line of balance. He will go down if done properly, since you will catch him standing on one leg and have placed him really off balance. It's important to keep one's back straight and finishing stance stable so that even when he falls he can't hold on and take you down with him where he can try to pull guard or something. If I can get to film this I will put it up for folks to get a visual idea.

Overall, Joseph Bowen gave a great response as far as solutions go.

Always think of ways of applying the principles, know the weak and strong lines of force and the instinctive responses to kuzushi and exploit them to your advantage.

Just a few thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

DustinAcuff
07-09-2005, 12:37 AM
Just a reminder: going for the clinch is a two arm grab. you have a number of ways to stop it right there. letting uke get that clinch is a no no unless you want to take the beating to get out.

Kevin Leavitt
07-09-2005, 04:53 PM
Best way to beat the clinch is to avoid the clinch. If he gets the clinch you need to keep your balance and center. (applying aikido principles), and then pummel until you have the clinch on him. Incidently pummelling really is the same thing as kokyu. you have to move your hips and rotate your arms if done correctly. As others have pointed out, then you break balance on one side of uke, and clinch either in a seat belt position of rear clinch if possible.

I never said the aikido principles don't apply. Never ever said that. I simply said there was much more to it than simply move off the line and irimi/tenkan.

Kevin Leavitt
07-09-2005, 05:07 PM
Larry. Yes I am guilty of generalizing the DO art aspect. Yes, there are jitsu or SU aspects in the DO arts, they are based on them, as you know. The difference is the application and focus. DO arts, as a generalization, tend to focus on the martial way versus being martially or situationally effective. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is why I like to study aikido.

As a generalization, my point is if you are studying a DO art, then it is probably better to concentrate on the DO aspects or learning priniciples and philosophy since overall that is what they are designed to convey.

Concentrating on defeating the clinch and real fighting skills, IMHO, can cause you to loose focus on that, and in my opinion, many DO teachers are not the ones that really care to, or should teach you these things necessarily, if this is your focus. You are better off studying MMA or something else if this is what you want out of martial arts. Why? because the DO arts typically are not efficient or aligned in this regard.

Can aikido instructors teach real techniques? Of course they can! As you know, many have contracts with police departments etc. In that situation though they are not teaching aikido, but techniques that can be applied in various situaitons. This is a big difference from aikido though.

That said, sure there are real applications with in the DO, and YES, the bunkai should be explained to students so they have an understanding of the etiology of the kata, technique, etc.

However, as practiced in most Aikido dojo's I have been in, there is a huge gap between understanding the practical application of the technique and being able and having the experience to apply it in a real situation, or against a Muay Thai fighter. There are "80% solutions" and "safe short cuts" that you can learn that would be time better spent if this is your goal. Do aiki principles apply even in these...yes they can since aikido is based on proper, dynamic movement.

Really I believe we are overall in agreement, and I have no problem with your post!

Tubig
07-11-2005, 12:09 AM
A tip...

One cannot do a sacrifice throw against the clinch.

I saw it last weak... Tell you what the one that did sacrifice throw had watery eyes. :eek:

Ron Tisdale
07-11-2005, 11:57 AM
Can you describe what happened?

Thanks,
Ron
A tip...

One cannot do a sacrifice throw against the clinch.

I saw it last weak... Tell you what the one that did sacrifice throw had watery eyes. :eek:

Kevin Leavitt
07-11-2005, 01:36 PM
You really cannot do any technique if you don't control center/balance. If you are in the clinch, you probably don't have balance/center. If you have the clinch you probably do.

Tubig
07-11-2005, 06:59 PM
The clinch; Two arms wrapped around the neck. uke moves Tori's head to the left with the left knee coming up, and so on with the right. So literally the centre is being swung left and right with knee attacks to follow up the technique.Tori can block the knee or blend with the attack to get uke's elbow up for kihon kokyu nage or ikyo(which is very hard to do) to get out of the clinch and get a better maai. :crazy:

Because it is very hard to blend, dodge, or get out of the clinch from side to side considering that uke's knees are coming from the sides left and right. Tori tried to close the distance and tried to do an omote technique or shift his balance forward to topple uke backwards whilst uke is standing on one foot because the other leg is going for a knee attack.

Tori forgot that uke has good balance because he is leaning on tori's neck. Tori has only one way to go, not forward (Uke is too strong) hence backwards and do the classic jujutsu sacrifice. Tori goes back (like a backward roll) holding on uke's grab on his neck, tries to lever uke to flip forward with his own knee/leg...

Remember Uke was doing knee attacks from the clinch, now he looses his balance forward because of Tori's sacrifice. Uke lands on Tori's crutch with the right knee, the left knee on the front of Tori's thigh. In the Muay Thai clinch the elbows were down for shield and attacks, this time both elbows landed on the the sides of the solar plexus and rib area. And to put icing on the cake a falling Uke lands a forehead butt to the nose and face of tori. They (Tori and Uke) were around 6 feet tall say around 90-100 kg each.

Tell you what Crunch! Crunch! Crunch! and Pop! is what I heard. It was not a good sight. :dead:

hence no sacrifices throws on the clinch for me.

Joe Bowen
07-11-2005, 07:54 PM
Wow, good, vivid description, you had me flinching in sympathetic pain to your story.
The clinch is a difficult thing to play around with, and your timing has to be good in order to a) avoid it as its coming or b) slip out of it once its on. Once the clinch is on, the knees start flying and you have a very small window before your balance is all shook up and you're just trying to survive the ride. All you can really do is experiment with it and find what you think will work.
You don't have to be a expert in Mauy Thai to apply a pretty effective clinch. In fact, we've actually done an Aikido-esque through using the clinch itself. Think about that one, the Aikido Clinch-nage.... :D

csinca
07-11-2005, 08:38 PM
Of course you've missed the obvious - disembowel uke with your tanto or wakazashi :)

For a few more serious comments:
1. I agree with the earlier comment that this is something you should be worrying about once you've got a few years of aikido under your belt

2. If you are in the clinch and the guy is kneeing you then a number of things have gone wrong up to that point.

I'm certainly no MT expert but every once in awhile I do okay from the clinch...

So there we are and I've managed to close in and lock my hands around your neck and I've got unfriendly intentions. The first thing that you have to instantly assess and control if possible is whether your elbows are inside or outside of mine, or one of each.

If my elbows are outside of yours, then I am going to be very careful about bringing my knees straight up as you are quite likely to let your same-side elbow just point straight down into my upcoming thigh and I know from experience that I don't like hitting elbows with my thigh. So if you find yourself with your elbows inside, they can be a deterent to the knees coming up the center. I've found the downside is that you give up some control of balance, I tend to get collapsed more when I'm inside and knees can come around for the kidney but quite honestly that is the least of my concerns.

If I have my elbows inside yours and I want to throw a right knee, I'll try to raise up my right elbow which will open up your ribs for me. It's a beautiful thing until you relax and give me a little bit of rotation to my right and a little bit of downward pressure (weight underside if you like) and settle your weight into the spot where my right foot was supporting my weight just before I brought it up. I've actually had some good luck with this with my elbows outside. In a clinch there is a lot of action trying to control postures and balances. In this case if you are sensitive enough and relaxed and keeping your weight down, it can be very difficult for your attacker to pick up a leg to strike.

Yes I realize that I haven't touched on balance and posture and those are also vital but I wanted to touch on how your arm position can give you some things to play with.

I've go to run to the dojo but I'll try to share a couple of posture items later

Chris

PS - the reality is that by the time someone has me in the clinch I'm pretty much done for as too many things have already gone wrong.

csinca
07-11-2005, 08:41 PM
Oh yeah, I've been taught that for the most part you need to have a similar grip/hand position on your uke. If you don't control their head and shoulders then they may decide to skip the clinch and opt for a hook or an elbow to your jaw (or ear which really, really hurts)

Chris

Tubig
07-11-2005, 10:17 PM
Joseph... An aikido Clinch-Nage hehehe. Man I would love to see that. Maybe that is the answer to the clinch. it is not really Aiki (you know fighting fire with fire), but if there is an aikido clinch -nage that would be excellent.

DustinAcuff
07-11-2005, 10:42 PM
just an idea. I have a tech called ryu no agito. basically, from a two arm grab to the throat/choke you cut uke's elbow on one side and at the same time this cut is being made you cut up into uke's mandible then down along the side of the neck inward at the clavicle. the motion is almost instantaneous and renders uke completely immobile. if you continue to cut down uke goes down. possibly it could be used against a clinch.

Btw, both elbows in or one in one out is dominant in the clench. if you have your elbows out you cannot control your victim as well and they have alot more gaurd options. both in allows you to give the mighty knee straight up, alot like doing a squat and releasing. it also allows you free elbows. one in one out is about equal for both people, the main advantage is that if you are faster on the draw you can pull your victim into a leaping knee to the abdomen, chest, or maybe even head. Both out negates most elbows and your most effective knees.

Another possibilty for the aikido clinch-nage. lock one of uke's elbows straight and start tenkan into the straight elbow, make 3-4 roatations and reverse into an over the body kaiten nage...would it work?

Tubig
07-11-2005, 11:09 PM
3/4 or 3-4 rotation?

xuzen
07-11-2005, 11:30 PM
Dear Tubig,

Wrt the sutemi (sacrifice) throws... here is a tip. The straight over the top throw ala Tomoe Nage'esques is a jujutsu throw but it has a caveat and if not done properly... you will end up in a painful condition as per what you described in post # 43.

Try this little adjustment Tubig, instead of throwing uke directly over... try to throw to the side at an angle as per yoko otoshi rather than a true tomoe nage type throw, and put some power into the throw... you want the uke to drop a little further... not too near where he can get you in a newaza hold. But if you are a newaza player... then after the throw you can initiate the newaza game. And I guess for added effect... you can add a leg reap or hook as you go down to give the tori some hard time.

Tubig, all I am saying is not to give up sutemi type throw so quickly. I personally find it to be very useful when the opponents force is coming towards you or where your forward motion is hindered.

But as with all jujutsu'esque technique.. this only works if uke is caught surprised or if kuzushi is taken from uke.. if uke is anticipating your move then change to something else.

p/s... my sensei had a very simple and no nonsense way of dealing with my clinch... as I am going in, he gave me an uppercut (he did not hit me... just stopped a couple of centimeters before my chin). But then I realized he did amateur Boxing in his youth before aikido and I am no Muay Thai player. :D


Boon.

Tubig
07-12-2005, 12:05 AM
Xuzen, I agree with you there. That is what I suggested to my dojo mate after I saw him take a moment in silence and tears whilst in pain. I will forward the other info that you suggested tomorrow nite at training, and probably give it a go myself as well. Hopefully it doesn't kill me. hehehe.

Thank you. :)

DustinAcuff
07-12-2005, 08:09 PM
3 to 4 rotations, lots of kinetic energy. if you are really good at tenkan about 1 rotation should work.

Kevin Leavitt
07-13-2005, 04:02 PM
The reason you will get an upper cut moving into this particular clinch is because you are probably leading in with your head down, back bent, and arms extending grabbing for the neck. I normally don't move in with this kind of clinch. Come in a different way, more balanced and guarded...usually you come in with both arms protecting your head, driving up the centerline of uke, once in press you center into him, hugging close and then pummel in over his neck if you bends over at waist. If not, then it is best to pummel down into double underarm hook, or move around to the side in a modified "seat belt securing on arm and reaching around his hip (think irminage style if you must!).

If you are maintaining good posture and defending well, your opponent should not be able to get you in the double arm of the head clinch.

wendyrowe
07-13-2005, 10:08 PM
I was just re-watching Jason DeLucia's Combat Aikido set so I could reply to a question from Kevin Leavitt on the "BJJ vs Aikido" thread, and saw a bunch of stuff I'd forgotten about how to deal with a clinch. Volume 5 "Striking Throws" demonstrates and explains getting out of a clinch using an ikkyo into entering throw, using an elbow throw, and using an inner thigh throw. He also shows using waki gatami if your opponent steps around out of the inner thigh throw attempt. He shows variations such as reversing into a wrist throw or using a side entry throw after the initial escape, and finishes with a submission. His main idea is that you escape the clinch before the knees and elbows start flying; your escape then puts you in more familiar territory, so you can use variants of techniques that'll seem more familiar, Aikidowise.

Tubig
07-13-2005, 10:25 PM
Went to training last night. We found a very good technique.

Aigame Ate and lots of it works.

My Tomiki past just got resurrected!!

L. Camejo
07-13-2005, 11:12 PM
Went to training last night. We found a very good technique.

Aigame Ate and lots of it works.

My Tomiki past just got resurrected!!
Figured you'd find that one.:)

How about Gyaku Gamae Ate (http://ttac.0catch.com/techvids/Clinch%20and%20knee-gyaku%20gamae%20ate%20lq.WMV) and Shomen Ate (http://ttac.0catch.com/techvids/Clinch%20and%20knee-shomen%20ate%20lq.WMV) to add to that?

Happy training.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
07-14-2005, 01:55 PM
Thanks wendy!

I actually practiced alot of clinching this morning along with pummelling and takedowns. Yes, you can see the aikido principles in just about every move you make. Kokyu during pummelling, ikkyo when you swim under the arm, and finally irmi/tenkan as you move to the side of the hip and control for the take down.

Ketsan
07-15-2005, 09:30 AM
I've just scanned through the posts so I might have missed this but what about an elbow or knee strike without a clinch? Apart from the obvious "get out of the way".

Kevin Leavitt
07-15-2005, 09:55 AM
Alex, I think that is a different dynamic all together. Much of the principles that you learn in aikido is very relevant. Iriminage, kaitenage, kotegaeshi come to mind. The difference is not the technique or principle, but the timing, distancing, and resistance, and speed that changes as we increase "free play" and intensity.

Funny part about it, once you go there...it looks less like aikido and more like MMA stuff. Vice versa...slow down good MMA training and it will begin to look like Aikido!