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John Boswell
06-30-2005, 04:43 PM
During last nights class, I started to see... and then again today I started to see... how Aikido is comprised of mostly ENTERING.

Let me explain...

Omote is to the inside... you are entering to the inside of the uke.
Ura is to the outside... but you are entering to the uke's outside.

Kaiten nage: Enter, blend, cut.
Shiho nage: Blend, enter, cut.
Koshi nage: Strongly Enter while blending and cut.
Ikkyo - Gokyo:Enter, blend, cut.
Kotageishi: blend, enter, cut.

Some of you are going to be laughing and saying "He's only just now getting this?" or you might be laughing and saying,"How much further from the mark can you get?" Either case... I want to hear from YOU!

Am I on to something here? Is this right? The more I look at everything, the more I see that ENTERING is the goal and capturing the uke's center/space.

Feedback please, thanks!

(*EDIT* I posted this over on Aikido Journal as well, but looking for feedback on this from everyone... so, feel free to jump in with whatever you like!)

mj
06-30-2005, 05:29 PM
Entering is the first part. If we don't enter we cannot do Aikido.

God that sounds dumb, but I hope you see what I mean. A conscious effort to deal with a situation (which does not necessarily mean head on).

Get off the line and enter :)

(check my sig)

Janet Rosen
06-30-2005, 05:49 PM
John, my epiphany on this came while grabbing a parking spot across the street from the direction I was pointed: the move was a full 180 degree tenkan, but boy was it ever an entry!

eyrie
06-30-2005, 07:42 PM
YES! Even when turning (tenkan) you are entering [the space]. Unite. Become one. yada yada yada.
:grin:

leefr
06-30-2005, 09:25 PM
There's an excellent blog entry called "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur over on Aikidojournal. Expresses its importance most emphatically.

DustinAcuff
06-30-2005, 11:53 PM
Yep. Entrance is it. You can go off metaphorically for eons on the true meaning of "irimi" if you feel like getting philosophical. But in a nutshell, entering is it. As it was explained to me, when you are a few inches to the side and about a foot closer than you were supposed to be when the energy was given uke's attack is harmless and he will have to readjust to make any further attempts at getting his hands on you. That happens either fast or slow, but it happens. This is why we enter and why aikido looks so fast.

I was sitting around one afternoon when it all came together. It is a good bit like someone finally turning on the lights, isnt it?

Dazzler
07-01-2005, 02:27 AM
Absolutely.

Even when using tenkan to absorb ukes attack, this is then returned to him in irimi.

You can have tenkan then irimi or straight irimi.

In my mind irimi then tenkan is incorrect.

A bit like slapping someone and then saying you dont want a fight...to me if you start you have to finish.

just my friday musings....

D

Paul Kerr
07-01-2005, 03:54 AM
No irimi, no tenkan.

Dazzler
07-01-2005, 03:56 AM
No irimi, no tenkan.

? lost me there m8.

What do you mean by that?

Cheers

D

Nick Simpson
07-01-2005, 05:28 AM
I was thinking about this a little while ago too John. Someone was askign me what this technique that we were doing was called and i was saying that it could be called sokumen-iriminage or a kokyu ho depending on your style. And then i though that perhaps it could also just be an iriminage, because the techniques esscence was in entering and cutting down. Then I thought that even kotegaeshi could be an iriminage, as in most cases you enter to apply the projection, even if you initiallu started with a tenkan movement. Cool innit?

eyrie
07-01-2005, 05:40 AM
No irimi, no tenkan.

irimi isn't always necessary as a prelude to tenkan. It depends on your "ma". tenkan is simply an entry in reverse.

John Boswell
07-01-2005, 10:36 AM
I was thinking about this a little while ago too John. Someone was askign me what this technique that we were doing was called and i was saying that it could be called sokumen-iriminage or a kokyu ho depending on your style. And then i though that perhaps it could also just be an iriminage, because the techniques esscence was in entering and cutting down. Then I thought that even kotegaeshi could be an iriminage, as in most cases you enter to apply the projection, even if you initiallu started with a tenkan movement. Cool innit?

That's how it happened to me: "Oh! XYZ technique is entering here. But not this one... oh wait, yes it is. But what about... ? That's entering too! What about just the basics? All entering. But not ura because that's... oh, entering to the outside. Hmmm..."

Was a neat little revilation!

Adam Alexander
07-01-2005, 01:25 PM
irimi isn't always necessary as a prelude to tenkan. It depends on your "ma". tenkan is simply an entry in reverse.

You might want to practice your tenkan...a lot.

eyrie
07-01-2005, 08:49 PM
You might want to practice your tenkan...a lot.

Hi Jean,

Would I be correct in assuming you are of the opinion that tenkan is impossible without first entering? Not sure what you are saying here...

Why do you believe I need more tenkan practice? :confused:

bryce_montgomery
07-01-2005, 11:29 PM
Here's a thought:

Without any entering, you have little if any reason to harmonize with uke because is not conflicting with nage. Since there is no conflict, waza isn't exactly neccessary. So...

With entering, waza is applicable in every extent because that is where conflict is met, blended with, and resolved. Through entering, whether uke or nage, harmonization is met by any technique and all technique require that entering...


:freaky: ...I just confused myself... :D

Anyway, that's just my opinion and I hope it helps.

Bryce

Adam Alexander
07-02-2005, 02:33 PM
Hi Jean,

Would I be correct in assuming you are of the opinion that tenkan is impossible without first entering? Not sure what you are saying here...

Why do you believe I need more tenkan practice? :confused:

My experience is that you never know what Aikido people are talking about until you understand it...then you're like,"oh, that's what that means."

With that in mind, the response to your second question...The only way to understand is by practicing.


Just my theory, but I gather that, outside of some guidance when you're really far off mechanically or technically, Sensei doesn't really tell you anything. I think the reason for that might be because we learn by "discovery" because that's the best way to learn. However, the Sensei needs to be recognized as an authority for your next steps...so, he/she says something that demonstrates his/her expertise when you reach the next level...then they say something else that makes no sense until...


Of instructors that give a lot of info...avoid them like the plague. They'll hinder and stifle your progress.

Atleast that's my experience:)

eyrie
07-02-2005, 07:43 PM
Thank you for a very diplomatic response. :)

Let me respond in kind by saying that (on a physical level) my Sensei has on numerous occasions demonstrated tenkan with no initial irimi from a shomenuchi attack. He waits till uke has overcommitted his attack and overwhelms him.... however I have no doubt he has already entered into uke's "ma" prior to the attack, with his intent. The tenkan merely completes the entry into ikkyo. So, on a physical level, irimi is not necessary as a prelude to tenkan. Although I'm sure mentally (or even spiritually) it is necessary.

But then my Sensei is quite high ranking, so I suppose he can do what he likes. ;)

Paul Kerr
07-03-2005, 02:32 PM
[QUOTE=Daren Sims]? lost me there m8.

What do you mean by that?

Cheers

D[/QUOTE

You might well disagree but when I heard it said that "Tenkan is what you do when irimi fails" it made a lot of sense to me. Still does.

p00kiethebear
07-03-2005, 02:47 PM
Entering is the first part. If we don't enter we cannot do Aikido.

Some techniques (such as yokomen shihonage) are(or can be) practiced by stepping backwards and off the line. THEN entering and blending.

Adam Alexander
07-03-2005, 04:12 PM
Thank you for a very diplomatic response. :)

Let me respond in kind by saying that (on a physical level) my Sensei has on numerous occasions demonstrated tenkan with no initial irimi from a shomenuchi attack. He waits till uke has overcommitted his attack and overwhelms him.... however I have no doubt he has already entered into uke's "ma" prior to the attack, with his intent. The tenkan merely completes the entry into ikkyo. So, on a physical level, irimi is not necessary as a prelude to tenkan. Although I'm sure mentally (or even spiritually) it is necessary.

But then my Sensei is quite high ranking, so I suppose he can do what he likes. ;)


I was doing a technique a couple months ago, and my Sensei approached. He say,"not like that. like this." I say,"Yes, Sensei, but what about this part." He says,"maybe you don't understand, do it like this."...completely ignoring my question.


Train hard.

samurai_kenshin
07-03-2005, 10:45 PM
I obviously need to pick up on my aikido terminology. I have no clue what you guys are talking about. Maybe there's alot of entering becasue you get close to your opponent alot?

Dazzler
07-04-2005, 07:32 AM
[QUOTE=Daren Sims]? lost me there m8.

What do you mean by that?

Cheers

D[/QUOTE

You might well disagree but when I heard it said that "Tenkan is what you do when irimi fails" it made a lot of sense to me. Still does.


Where's the disagreement? :confused: I just didn't know what you meant.

I do now you've clarified it....and agree!

D

Dazzler
07-04-2005, 07:38 AM
irimi isn't always necessary as a prelude to tenkan. It depends on your "ma". tenkan is simply an entry in reverse.

Kind of agree.

My understanding is that even in tenkan there is some irimi and even in irimi there is some tenkan.

eg yokomen comes in...you respond with shomen (irimi).

But at the same time you still turn your body away from the yokomen...effectively a small tenkan.

I believe this is one of the things represented by the small black dot in the white half of the Tao and visa-versa.

FWIW

D

Paul Kerr
07-04-2005, 02:57 PM
I don't know what I mean half the time either Darren :)

Nick Simpson
07-05-2005, 05:50 AM
My sensei has a unique way of explaining entering: 'Into'.

Eventually it makes sense and then when someone asks how to do something, you find it to be the only way of explaining it clearly...

Yep, John, it was quite a neat moment, i think i'll remember it for as long as i train :)

Adam Alexander
08-09-2005, 12:14 PM
I just wanted to revise what I had said.

I don't know if it's all entering. My current path, although it may be a detour, says that it's either 1)not all entry, or 2)entering isn't necessarily the best description.

Mmmm. That foot tastes great:)

Jorx
08-09-2005, 12:56 PM
"Ideally, what I want to do, is to penetrate right between his legs"
(Don Frye on Don Frye's Devastating Takedowns mma/wrestling instructional video tape)

Lan Powers
08-09-2005, 05:30 PM
"Ideally, what I want to do, is to penetrate right between his legs"
(Don Frye on Don Frye's Devastating Takedowns mma/wrestling instructional video tape)

Sensei has said repeatedly "Bisect his center" Common ground from differant arts.
Lan