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Justin Gaar
06-26-2005, 11:16 AM
(Note: I have a nagging feeling that there is another thread like this, but i could not find it so i started another one. Jun, if there is please feel free to move this thread)
Ok, have you ever frozen up in a confrontation. Have you ever been put in the situation where you know what you need to do, but cannot? Like if someone is charging you in an altercation and you know that you need to make a move but you cannot think fast enough to move? At the dojo, we all know and can agree on the fact that no dojo can precisely mimic a realistic situation. Does this go away? Where instinct kicks in without hesitation? I have been threatened at school recently by someone i suspect to be able to make good on it. I'm scared that if i am put in a situation where i have to defend myself, i won't be able to move in time. Anyone have advice. Also, if you are in school and are put in a situation where you have to defend yourself, do you think that aikido can be percieved by administration as an offensive style. What i mean is, do you think i could get in trouble for doing an arm bar or a common joint lock? Any advice again would be appreciated. Ya'll haven't failed me yet :).

aikigirl10
06-26-2005, 12:46 PM
I think aikido can be effective offensively. I have used it while sparring in shaolin before. Mostly i think aikido helps alot with your footwork , at least for me. As far as getting in trouble , it all depends on your school. And as far as knowing what to do , just go with your gut instinct, If you've trained long enough in martial arts , it always seems to work.

hope i could help
paige

Don_Modesto
06-26-2005, 04:45 PM
Ok, have you ever frozen up in a confrontation.

Read Peyton Quinn's books. They address this very well. He has the distinction of owning the ugliest site on the web (http://www.rmcat.com/), but his books make a lot of sense. I got mine through interlibrary loan. Talk to your school/local librarian.

I have been threatened at school recently by someone i suspect to be able to make good on it.

Bummer. That stuff ruins your day/week/semester, doesn't it.

First consideration, does your school have a zero tolerance policy about violenc? If so, then even if you win, you lose: don't engage. I should think that if they won't let you defend yourself, then they would be pro-active about threats (which, btw, are legally assault; battery means someone intentionally touches you knowing you don't want them to--touches, not necessarily takes out your teeth. Pinching a butt or taking someone by the arm to pull them into your store to sell them something is battery). It often struck me when I was in your position, though, that the consequences of enlisting adult aid could be worse than dealing with the problem myself. Never called in the police, however. They might be sympathetic in an age of Columbine psychos, though.

If you have to fight, well, that's where the rubber hits the road. You'll find out if you freeze or not then. If you fight, it'd probably help you NOT to try to use any aikido you've picked up, it'll slow down more useful reactions..

FWIW, often bullies are cowards--a cliche you've probably heard--but if you show fight, they sometimes back down. They want victims, not competition. Then again, they may love the fight. Your call. Sorry not to be more help. Good luck. Let us know what happens.

Rupert Atkinson
06-26-2005, 06:46 PM
Expect to be pushed around - but be crafty and avoid confrontation where possible. In the meantime, train harder at your MA school. Volunteer for everything - put yourself on the spot and learn to overcome it. Ask uke to hit you here and there and learn to get used to it. One thing I like to do is to practice entering a technique after being hit (slap is good) - i.e. get hit in the face, roll with it some, and enter say waki-gatame. You need to train in such a way that you develop adrenaline, then keep training until you can overcome and control the adrenaline, rather than have it control you (fight, flight, or in some cases, freeze). By being hit, you also learn to control your pride and not let it control you. It is not easy - and the dojo is the place to learn to do this, not high school. And if you train that way, when the time comes, you'll be able to walk away (not bothering to fight) in confidence.

Nick Simpson
06-27-2005, 06:09 AM
Wait until he's in the toilets alone, and kick the f*ck out of him when he's busy using a urinal.

rob_liberti
06-27-2005, 07:27 AM
I think that if you want to learn to fight fast, aikido is probably not the best MA for you. My opinion to get good at fighting fast, you need to find a good teacher/coach that can teach you to take a hit (many) and to learn soild combinations. Ground fighting is great for school yard scuffels, and you can get pretty good at that (enough to survive a school bully) pretty fast.

As far as the freezing up part, well, I can say that I got a couple videos of Tony Blauer's flinch response system - and I was impressed with his metholodogy of figuring out how to help martial artists actaully get into a situation where they can use their martial arts when a confrontation is really happening. The idea of the arms having that flinch response to protect your control center (your eyes, ears, nose, etc..) is going to happen unless when you were a small child someone attacked you in a way that repressed that (and taught you on a fundimental level that being absolutely still is necessary for survival. If that is the case, you might want to consider hypno-therapy or something like that). Anyway, the flinch response ideas are pretty well thought out and expressed, so I'd recommend the videos if you don't have access to someone who can help you with that sort of thing in person.

The main thing good aikido will give you (initially) as far as fight effectiveness is experience entering and turning. You can keep moving to where you are in a better position and they are in a worse one. If you do that well - and automatically - you might not need to spend a lot of time working on techniques out of your flinch response. But, with respect to Aikido remember that the low level (or surface level) tai-jitsu we teach white belts and lower black belts is designed not to really work with that surface level understanding. In my opinion, making it work with forcefullness is silly because if you have that much more force than the other person - well then you didn't need any techniques, did you... The practice from a martial perspective is to find a way to get things reliable without forcefullness and that requires a whole lot of time - especially to do it refexively when pressed.

I spent a lot of time growing up fighting my older brother (2.5 years older, 100 ounds heavier, and much smarter than me - so no I don't have a lot of experience "winning"!) But, the good news was that when a kid in my own grade wanted to fight, that kid was much smaller, weaker, and dumber than I was used to. Even when the match up was pretty even, I felt I had a strong advantage in confidence. Can your martial training provide something like that for you?

Rob

Rupert Atkinson
06-27-2005, 08:27 AM
Wait until he's in the toilets alone, and kick the f*ck out of him when he's busy using a urinal.

Not exactly. In high school this is the kind of thing our friend needs to defend himself against.

Nick Simpson
06-27-2005, 11:20 AM
You could prevent this situation by not going alone and using a cubicle instead of a urinal, but it would be pretty hard to defend yourself from this situation if it occurred. Anyways, I was jesting :)
Its upto you, mate, dont play him at his game whatever you do though. Pick the fight on your ground, if he says something in public, take the mick out of him, embarrass him in front of people, whatever. I doubt he would kill you, an unfortuante part of school life is being hit by bigger boys, its how you react to it that counts. Best to stay out of the way completely if you can, but you have to take your victories when you can get them. if you dont want to talk to a teacher then at least MAKE sure if he goes for you that a teacher or witness is present to catch him red handed.

Don_Modesto
06-27-2005, 11:36 AM
Expect to be pushed around - but be crafty and avoid confrontation where possible. In the meantime, train harder at your MA school. Volunteer for everything - put yourself on the spot and learn to overcome it. Ask uke to hit you here and there and learn to get used to it....You need to train in such a way that you develop adrenaline, then keep training until you can overcome and control the adrenaline, rather than have it control you (fight, flight, or in some cases, freeze). By being hit, you also learn to control your pride and not let it control you. It is not easy - and the dojo is the place to learn to do this, not high school. And if you train that way, when the time comes, you'll be able to walk away (not bothering to fight) in confidence.

Excellent advice.

giriasis
06-27-2005, 11:57 AM
First consideration, does your school have a zero tolerance policy about violenc? If so, then even if you win, you lose: don't engage. I should think that if they won't let you defend yourself, then they would be pro-active about threats (which, btw, are legally assault; battery means someone intentionally touches you knowing you don't want them to--touches, not necessarily takes out your teeth. Pinching a butt or taking someone by the arm to pull them into your store to sell them something is battery).

Not all threats are assault, for it to be assault the person being threatened must feel that the are in immediate harm. Assault is not just, "I'm going to hurt/hit/kill you." But there must be some other factor that such action will be followed through with immediately.

Of course in a school with a zero tolerance policy, it might be something to report to someone to let them know you are concerned about your safety.

ElizabethCastor
06-27-2005, 01:19 PM
if you are in school and are put in a situation where you have to defend yourself, do you think that aikido can be percieved by administration as an offensive style.

Justin,
As a public school teacher (Co., not N.C.) I can say that most schools have an 'if you participate, you're guilty too' attitude whether or not its labeled a zero tolerance policy. That's the bad news... :sorry:

The good news :p is that aikido still gives you some pretty handy tools beginning with the awareness that there's this jerk who potentially wants to pound you. I know in my lessons even at 5th kyu level we are always shifting and moving feet until in a position to apply the technique. Your work in practice has also taught you about balance and center, finding yours and taking his. Finally, as others have already said you know about entering and redirecting (which you can do literally in the fight, or figuratively by using humor and stuff to redirect the hostility).

I agree with Don, it more than likely that you might not want to "tell on him" to an adult. But, I've seen with my students that if you get others informed (i.e. friends, dojo mates) you'll have some support for your side when you explian how you wanted to avoid this.

And who knows, this thing could totally blow over with out anything really happening.

PS) after only one month of classes a friend tried to grab both my hands from behind. With only one class that dealt with this kind of grab I mananged to be facing her...:eek: she looked pretty shocked! :D

Anyway you'll be fine!

Elizabeth

Adam Alexander
06-27-2005, 01:59 PM
Like if someone is charging you in an altercation and you know that you need to make a move but you cannot think fast enough to move?

If you have to think about it, you've already lost.

I've heard it said that to make a technique reflex, you must do it 5,000 times. I can do about 200 techniques (same one, over and over) in an hour.

My advice: When in class, do the technique big--just like you're supposed to. Make sure that uke is giving real-deal attacks....but don't spend all your time in class.

Class is for getting corrections, practice is for getting good. Atleast that's been my experience...but if you've got the choice between a crappy uke and an imaginary uke, I'd go with the imaginary.

Regarding the consequences: If you're going to resort to violence, you should be at a point where you don't care about the consequences--someone's actually attacking you.

However, in the meantime, visit your local council meetings and tell them what a load of crap it is that they can't protect you and they expect you to roll over when someone attacks you or get suspended.


If I was in the situation I percieve you to be telling and I knew he was coming after me to give me more than a black-eye or bloody-nose, I'd catch him in the urinal and kick the **** out of him while he's susceptible...irimi.

guest89893
06-27-2005, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=Justin Gaar At the dojo, we all know and can agree on the fact that no dojo can precisely mimic a realistic situation. Does this go away? Where instinct kicks in without hesitation? I have been threatened at school recently by someone i suspect to be able to make good on it. I'm scared that if i am put in a situation where i have to defend myself, i won't be able to move in time. Anyone have advice. Also, if you are in school and are put in a situation where you have to defend yourself, do you think that aikido can be percieved by administration as an offensive style. What i mean is, do you think i could get in trouble for doing an arm bar or a common joint lock? Any advice again would be appreciated. Ya'll haven't failed me yet :).[/QUOTE]

Justin,
In these moments fear can be channeled/directed/removed that is something to work on. Your antagonist should not be looked at or followed with your stare if you are fearful - he can easily read this and will continue at you and more than likely make good the threat. Learn anger, a badger chooses to become angry at the bear. You must learn to not care if your going to get hurt, but that you will not make a move until if and only if your attacked.And if you are attacked turn off your thoughts feed on your anger. And the way to learn to become that angry is to feel the fear he's causing you and start getting mad at him for causing you to choose to be fearful. We sometimes miss the point in our society cause we tend to think everything fits in a "you can win" philosophy. Fighting is not about winning it's only about surviving the fight.
No matter what course of physical action you take if it is directed at another person even in defense the school will give you consequences for those actions. This is also true for your enemy, so if he's trying to isolate you out of site from authorities -you now he is going to make good on the threat (or make good on trying to hurt you), if it seems to always happen not far or with in visual range of authority- can you figure out his strategy here? In choosing these choices and accepting them, you might suddenly find yourself getting rather calm even in facing your enemy, the calm hides the storm beneath but your enemy may well snese this and loose his nerve instead.
By the way I've been where you are, so if none of the other better and mature options presented here earlier by the other good people on this thread is removed as choices for you... Well then if you must, follow my advice.
Hope all works out to the good,
Gene

Mike.Ordway
06-27-2005, 02:22 PM
On the topic of actually freezing up or not. In order to get your muscles to remember how to do something instinctivly its been proven that you have to do that one thing about 2000 until your muscles do it instinctivly.

Adam Alexander
06-27-2005, 02:50 PM
On the topic of actually freezing up or not. In order to get your muscles to remember how to do something instinctivly its been proven that you have to do that one thing about 2000 until your muscles do it instinctivly.

Sweet!! Where'd you get that from? I've been trudging for 5K...cutting it in half gives me some hope that someday I'll be good.:)

Any info on how many times it takes to replace a skill (for example, ceasing to use one muscle for a technique in order to use the right one?)

James Davis
06-27-2005, 03:15 PM
I'm not too sure about muscle memory, but I've read that if you keep doing something for seven consecutive days it becomes habit. If you're able to stop doing something for seven consecutive days, you've broken a habit. I think that we can get ourselves into the habit of at least being aware of our surroundings; it can't hurt, right? The techniques will come later. In the meantime, open your eyes and stay alert. :)

aikidoc
06-27-2005, 03:50 PM
Jean:
"I can do about 200 techniques (same one, over and over) in an hour." Wow you are fast. That's over 3 techniques a minute or one technique every 18 seconds. I would not want to be your uke.

Nick Simpson
06-27-2005, 04:34 PM
If I was in the situation I percieve you to be telling and I knew he was coming after me to give me more than a black-eye or bloody-nose, I'd catch him in the urinal and kick the **** out of him while he's susceptible...irimi.

Glad to see someone agrees with me Jean! ;)

Adam Alexander
06-27-2005, 06:07 PM
Jean:
"I can do about 200 techniques (same one, over and over) in an hour." Wow you are fast. That's over 3 techniques a minute or one technique every 18 seconds. I would not want to be your uke.

LOL. Yeah right. That's practicing by myself and doing basic techniques--no continuations and nothing with body-changes, etc.

I do work up a sweat.

Adam Alexander
06-27-2005, 06:12 PM
Glad to see someone agrees with me Jean! ;)

Yeah, I like to think that I wouldn't go looking for trouble if I was in that situation, but there's no sense living in a shell.

One other thing, regarding the training by yourself. Try it for an hour. Do something like a "chest grasp first control throw".

Do it fast without losing balance. AFter that, throughout the day, you'll feel stable like you've never felt. Obviously, don't spend too much time on zanshin...just enough.

JayRhone
06-30-2005, 08:23 AM
I know the position you are in. I was in that particular circumstance many times in Jr. High. Bullied, threatend, teased, the whole sha-bang. Well from about 5th grade I started a karate system. Pretty good, not brutal but effective, well okay, some of it was pretty brutal. Anyway, I was in Jr. High and one of the other kids that always teased me was following me around the halls. After about 5 minutes of this I had an epiphany, maybe if I scare off the people teasing me with a good display of power mearly a show of what could happen, then perhaps it will get around, and then I won't have to deal with the kids that actually do want some violence. So I walked to a hall I knew no teachers would be in and this kid followed. So when we got a place that I designated to be good I turned around and as fast as I could I landed a kick about 1/2 and inch from his nose, so he backed into the corner I led him to and then I rushed in and snapped my fists and elbows close enough to brush his clothes. I executed about 5 or 6 of these blows around his person then I simply walked away, leaving him against a wall, scarred as hell. After that no one bothered me again.
Personally I think if you can take some hits, then let him hit you a couple of times. It's really rare when someone wants to take you with absolutely no one else around. Usually bullies like other students to watch him kick the stuffin out of you. So you let him hit you enough to cause some bruising or bleeding, the other students will see he started the physical violence or if there are cameras even better. Then you take the appropriate action, kick his sorry arse or just evade what he throws. Later when everything is calm and you're sitting in the office you will have a very good defense. He started it, he hit you first and you percieved yourself to be in serious danger and acted accordingly. It's better if you know how to stop a fight insantly too because then it's just him wailing on you and you stopping this. I would personally let him take a few good hits on me to position myself to slam his throat. But that's me.
-Jay

Ron Tisdale
06-30-2005, 09:14 AM
Not bad advice if there are no weapons involved. If there is any chance he's comming with a weapon...I'd reconsider...

Best,
Ron

Larry Cuvin
06-30-2005, 01:36 PM
Justin,
Some points to consider coming from dad of two girls; one going senior high and one going 8th grade.
1. Regardless of of your school policy on fighting, win or loose the fight, do you think that you will be comfortable enough to walk anywhere for the rest of your stay in school with out looking over your shoulders for fear of getting jumped?
2. If you decide to fight and win, is it guaranteed that the bully will back-off and stay away from you and not comeback at you with who knows what?
3. If you fight and loose, is it guaranteed that the bully will stop?
4. If you decide to fight the bully, how far are you willing to go? (If he punches you, are you ready to kick him? If he pulls a knife on you, are you willing to do the same? If he pulls a gun.....? If he's will to go to jail, are you?)

What I'm saying is in you original post, your mind set is already on confrontation... to collide. With only less that one year of aikido under my belt, I'm in no position to advice you on techniques. I urge you to look at the overall picture and the possible escalation and outcome when you decide what to do.
As far as freezing during confrontation, I do that even at our dojo during ju waza. I will however leave you the same advice that I constantly get from my sensei: 1) Keep one point. 2) Relax completely. 3) Keep weight underside. and 4) Extend Ki. Best of luck to you.

Charles Hill
06-30-2005, 06:33 PM
I think that it was at George Ledyard`s website where I read a really good article about how various Aikido students handled various bullying situations at school. Some of the experiences were good and some were bad. Anyone who is a high school student (or younger) and those who teach them should read it.

Charles

Nick Simpson
07-01-2005, 04:34 AM
I took some stick at school sometimes. I was always worried that the teachers would take a dim view of me striking back. My dad told me that no matter what, I had to hit first and hit hard and that whatever the fallout was i would have his support. Wise words. As long as your in the right and your defending yourself from harm then you know that you've done the right thing.

On another note, I was once sort of pushed into one of those circles where a kid was who didnt like me, i really didnt care about him and didnt want the hassle. So I let him hit me and I smiled at him and walked off. That worked, its funny what kids think make you a mad man...

Ketsan
07-01-2005, 07:24 AM
Wait until he's in the toilets alone, and kick the f*ck out of him when he's busy using a urinal.

Amen. Just remember though, you know nothing about it, don't even tell your friends. If school don't know you do Aikido, forget that you do.

Justin Gaar
07-01-2005, 09:40 AM
Hey,
Thank for all your input. The situation has gotten better over time. He is apparently all talk and the worst he'll do is threateningly lunge at you. *laughs* I overestimated him... i am guilty of one of the worst offenses :dead:. Alas, have a good day!