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Dajo251
04-30-2001, 10:46 AM
I recently visited a friend of mines kempo/tkd/etc school and learned that they practice gun take aways. Personally I think the idea of trying to take away a gun from someone who is pointing it at you is absurd. I was wondering what the rest of you think?
Dan

andrew
04-30-2001, 10:57 AM
If it's unloaded, and they're trying to pistol whip you or something, it's a great idea.
I suppose you might find yourself in a do or die situation, but what's important in that situation is dealing with the adrenaline drain involved, so if that didn't come first they're being silly.

andrew

wildaikido
04-30-2001, 11:28 AM
They did a survey in the US that said if someone points a gun at you 70% of the time they'll shoot you, do you like to gamble if you train in it and your good go for it. This is when tenkan is important.

mj
04-30-2001, 01:06 PM
I suppose if someone IS going to point a gun at you, it's better to have trained in a realistic disarming procedure of some sort.
If the person with the gun has a brain though, what chance would you have. They can use ma-ai too...

Matt Banks
04-30-2001, 01:14 PM
Ive trained in many aikido dojo's which practice aikido disarming tecniques. In every cased their always taught, to weigh up the need to defend yourself. ie if he wants your wallet give it to him etc. If in some scenario you knew he would kill you then you would have to do something about it. It is something you as the student has to decide...how far would it need to go?
The one we regularly practice is you somehow talk your way into the attacker until he/she has the gun near your head. You keep on talking to give a distraction, like 'i have the keys to my ferrari in my pocket' then you flick the gun to one side moving your head the other way and use hiji-shime on the arm to control the gun. Then we take the gun, get the attacker in sankajo and walk him to the police station. OK we dont do the last bit really! The fact is while walking in the attacker might shoot you....bang no martial art tecnique can help you. Not even the ninja turtles could do anything.
Luckly the uk is very strict on firearms, the public aint allowed them, but thats another big debate.


Matt Banks

Matt Banks
04-30-2001, 01:20 PM
When we do the above tecnique, uke holds a loaded bi-bi gun with plastic bi-bi's. Tory wears correct eye protection. If you get stung by the bi-bi then you know the outcome. If uke at anytime feels like your trying to take the gun of him heel shoot. It is a safe way to practice, and its fun. On one session, a visiting sensei brought a replicle semi automatice bi-bi gun, it was fun adapting the tecnique.


Matt Banks

Chocolateuke
04-30-2001, 08:57 PM
I know that we dont wanna make this the biggest issue of Gun COntrol on an Aiki post but here http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/ is a site that says that every 13 sec a criminal is stoped by using a gun in self defence intresting thing. in my opion if I am in a situation where someone is pointing a real loaded gun I would give them the car but not my Mom!

darin
04-30-2001, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Matt Banks
Ive trained in many aikido dojo's which practice aikido disarming tecniques. In every cased their always taught, to weigh up the need to defend yourself. ie if he wants your wallet give it to him etc. If in some scenario you knew he would kill you then you would have to do something about it. It is something you as the student has to decide...how far would it need to go?
The one we regularly practice is you somehow talk your way into the attacker until he/she has the gun near your head. You keep on talking to give a distraction, like 'i have the keys to my ferrari in my pocket' then you flick the gun to one side moving your head the other way and use hiji-shime on the arm to control the gun. Then we take the gun, get the attacker in sankajo and walk him to the police station. OK we dont do the last bit really! The fact is while walking in the attacker might shoot you....bang no martial art tecnique can help you. Not even the ninja turtles could do anything.
Luckly the uk is very strict on firearms, the public aint allowed them, but thats another big debate.


Matt Banks

Hijishime is a good technique. Very strong and can also be used against other weapons.

I don't know anything about guns but I was told buy a marksman that if you grab the barrel or the slide or put your finger/thumb between the hammer the gun will not fire. Is there any truth to this?

AikidoSteve
05-01-2001, 12:12 AM
I've seen the results of someone stopping the forward movement of the hammer with the web between the thumb and the index finger. It will work! But be prepared to lose a chunk of skin and you better be moving because you won't get a second chance. I've been told that if you rush the individual with the firearm that chances are they will miss when shooting at you, unless (make that a BIG UNLESS) they practice shooting targets that move at them or they could just get lucky. I'm not so sure I'd want to play that game. I guess it would depend upon the situation. In my younger days I've had one gun and two knives pulled on me. And in each case I became a "Yes Sir!" kind of guy mighty darn fast. As a NRA Certified Instructor in Home Defense, I tell my students to keep the gap between the "Bad Guy" and yourself as big as possible, just to prevent the intruder, rapist or what ever from trying to take away your firearm. And if you pull your firearm you must absolutely be mentally prepared to "shoot to stop" the person coming at you. Plus I also advocate plenty of shooting practice.

I just hope that none of us ever find ourselves at either end of a firearm during a bad situation.

Yours in Aikihood

wildaikido
05-01-2001, 03:12 AM
Matt that sounds like fun (well not if you get shot) I would make sure I was wearing my judo gi :)
I just wish bi-bi gun weren't illegal in Australia.

ian
05-01-2001, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by darin


I don't know anything about guns but I was told buy a marksman that if you grab the barrel or the slide or put your finger/thumb between the hammer the gun will not fire. Is there any truth to this?



I think you'd have to be very fast and accurate to achieve this - may as well do an Aikido technique. You'd also have to be very close, and you'd also have to be dealing with a weapon with an exposed 'hammer' (i.e. a revolver.)

If people are so worried about a gun confrontation, why do they not worry to the same extent about a knife confrontation. It is quite easy to disable someone (and then kill them) by use of a knife, at close quarters. It is also harder to take a knife off someone (at close quarters) than a rifle or hand gun, due to the blade.

However, if they are not right next to you and you don't want to give in the best thing to do is to run away (ACROSS their field of vision, so you are a harder target (moving eratically) and try to get as many objects between you and them as possible (parked cars etc) - the bullets from many weapons will pass straight through these objects (including walls), but it can stop them targetting you. Also, try to repsent as little area to them as possible (keep low or hit the floor).

Ian

ian
05-01-2001, 11:04 AM
P.S. some aikido techniques are great for disarming, but can put the position of the gun close to your ear. This will obviously give you long term hearing damage if it is discharged!

Ian

REK
05-01-2001, 03:54 PM
I smell a rant coming on....

We have some post-ers who feel that aikido is meant to deal with someone who is doing "everything right", ie keeping their balance during attack, recovering quickly for counter attack, etc. For those folks, this belief should extend to "Smithandwessondori". I feel very strongly, however, that a well-trained marksman will put a bullet in your brainpan long before you ...enter in close enough for a hiji-owthathurts.

Others feel that there is only a, what, 10% chance of meeting someone who is well trained? In which case you can excuse the suicidal practice of trying to stick your thumb between the hammer and the receiver or lock the slide back or any of those other hollywood responses. Further, I think to add to this irresponsible pondering a debate as to the true commitment of a fire-armed attacker is simply nonsense. When the weapon is out, commitment is immaterial. You don't need commitment to kill someone accidentally.

As a trained crisis negotiator, my opinion reflects that of my FBI instructors...you either talk them down, kill them first, or just simply don't be there to begin with.

Thus endeth the rant

Rob

mj
05-01-2001, 04:33 PM
I agree with REK. The gun is 'the great equaliser'. It negates all 'our' training. But hey, I could (do) live without a gun. I couldn't live without some aspect of training.... just got to get on with it, right? :cool:

guest1234
05-01-2001, 10:18 PM
i don't know about how effective the techniques are, i was shown one once, and don't remember much. I don't do Aikido for self defense, so i don't have much need to work on that aspect anyway, but i can readily think of a situation where someone is holding a gun on you, and you know he will use it---a soon to be ex- who would rather see you dead than free of him. You can try to negotiate with someone like that, but with all the times you hear of a woman being shot by her husband, how often do you hear of her talking him out of it? for folks doing Aikido for situations like that, rather than say they don't work, i say good luck and work hard on those techniques.

ian
05-02-2001, 06:53 AM
Yeh,
I hope my previous post didn't come over as a strong advocation of tackling someone with a gun (I think that is a personal matter). I just wanted to say that we talk about defending from knife attacks, but they can easily be lethal.

Also, how do we assess the options within that situation, and what do we have to loose? Although unarmed attacks can also be lethal, most people do not want to loose face and presume that their opponent will not kill them. Therefore they tackle them, to a lesser degree this may occur with a knife and then to an even lesser degree this occurs with a weapon.

Why do you defend yourself at all instead of just running away? Maybe it is a balance between ego, fear (of death) and whether you feel you can control the situation (physically or through negotiation). In addition it is whether you will loose something (such as friend or family) if you do run, or you feel a moral obligation (i.e. if everyone tried to tackle those threatening them with weapons, maybe people would think twice before issuing such a threat - or maybe not).

Ian

Anne
05-03-2001, 01:15 PM
As one of our Sensei said: "If someone points at you with a gun - run away" which in my opinion, too, is the best way to deal with such a situation, although I must admit that the probability to have to make this decision should be far less in Germany than in the US.

Anne

Jim23
05-03-2001, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Anne
As one of our Sensei said: "If someone points at you with a gun - run away" which in my opinion, too, is the best way to deal with such a situation, although I must admit that the probability to have to make this decision should be far less in Germany than in the US.

Anne

Regardless of where you live, you might have a little trouble outrunning a bullet. Dodging them ... well, that's another story. ;)

Regarding a knife attack, I was taught that the attacker to be extra careful with, was the person who attacks with the knife above his head (fist above the head). They're out for the kill, as opposed to just slashing you.

Jim23

AikidoSteve
05-03-2001, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Anne
As one of our Sensei said: "If someone points at you with a gun - run away" which in my opinion, too, is the best way to deal with such a situation, although I must admit that the probability to have to make this decision should be far less in Germany than in the US.

Anne

And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

And we can't forget this famous quote "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -- Adolph Hitler, 1933

And then when Germany established gun confiscation in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Of course Aikido was still in its infancy then. In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you. Don't believe the press 100% as they like to sensationalize the news.

And your Sensei is right - run and take cover.

Respectfully Yours in Aikihood from the USA

Jim23
05-03-2001, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by AikidoSteve


And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

And we can't forget this famous quote "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -- Adolph Hitler, 1933

And then when Germany established gun confiscation in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Of course Aikido was still in its infancy then. In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you. Don't believe the press 100% as they like to sensationalize the news.

And your Sensei is right - run and take cover.

Respectfully Yours in Aikihood from the USA


Steve,

I don't think it's appropriate or fair for you to attack Anne like that. Lighten up man.

What happened was terrible, but don't make it personal.

Jim23

AikidoSteve
05-03-2001, 02:44 PM
Sorry for those who were offended. But the facts still remain. Plus I don't consider it personal. And it was not meant to be personal. None of us were able to change that course of history. But we might have an influence on the future. And perhaps be able not to repeat the bad parts of history.

By the way on my family tree one paternal grandmother was a Becker and one maternal grandmother was a Hemple.

Jim23
05-03-2001, 03:02 PM
I have no problem with the facts that you've stated. It's the "Sorry ... but" that gives me trouble. And it doesn't matter if you don't consider it personal.

Anne made a harmless comment. She doesn't need a US vs. Germany lecture, or you using Hitler and the Nazis to justify gun ownership in the US. Besides, the gun topic has been beaten to death elsewhere.

Jim23

AikidoSteve
05-03-2001, 03:47 PM
Jim23,
I'm sorry you consider it personal. But I can only control my thoughts not yours. And you may not like my sorry but:( and you can have all the baggage that comes with it. The facts remain the same, and I'll stand by my statement!

Further, Anne, I apologize if you felt attacked.

Yours in Aikihood

Jim23
05-03-2001, 04:01 PM
Steve,

Look, I have nothing against you -- I don't even know you. I'm not question your facts, because they are true. I'm just saying that this is an aikido forum and Anne didn't deserve your remarks (maybe she doesn't really care).

Regarding the baggage comment, I honestly don't know what that was supposed to mean. Are you saying that I don't understand the baggage that goes with your statement? You need to explain.

Jim23

PS: I can control your thoughts ;)

PeterR
05-03-2001, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by AikidoSteve
And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

Based on the assumption that those countries with gun laws are less free. :rolleyes:
What's the percentage of the US population that's incarcerated.

In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you.

All depends on which lottery you are talking about.

Stirring, stirring, stirring.

TheProdigy
05-03-2001, 04:38 PM
Hey,

First, I'd like to say Steve was simply sharing his thoughts on the subject, which is what this is here for. This is NOT here for attacking people doing that.

In getting back on subject... I was always told if someone points a gun at you, just throw em what they want and run (ie car keys, wallet, etc.). If your in broad daylight, chances are they wont shoot. If it's midnight and your in an alley who knows.. just pray and hope if they do...

Of course it all depends on where your at, what time it is, and in some places your skin color at the time(unfortunate, but true...).

-Jase

mj
05-03-2001, 04:49 PM
The chances of winning a 6 number lottery... roughly 14000000 to 1. Therefore, according to Aikidosteve's argument... 260,000000 people in the US... only less than 20 people are killed by guns each lottery, :confused: 1400 a year... I don't think so! Jim23 doesn't have baggage, he's a non-sikidoka who points out flaws in what we (we?) say. More power to him and people like him. Totally in tune with the times I say (damn his soul...) :eek:

mj
05-03-2001, 04:51 PM
Damn it, with qualifications in typing... you'd think I would be able to put aikidoka... :rolleyes:

Jim23
05-03-2001, 05:10 PM
Hey Mark,

You said damn -- twice. Anyway, thanks for the nice words you ex-judoka type of person. I may say non-sensical things from time to time, but I'm no non-aikidoka.

If I don't respond to your reply, it's because I'm heading out for a while. Can't keep the wife waiting -- she can be dangerous. She works out everyday (sometimes twice a day).

Jim23

PS: you can edit your posts ya'know.

mj
05-03-2001, 05:22 PM
No... I don't know how to edit my posts... Halliday, .... enjoy your time out... wives are a double edged sword...
As for saying you're not kidoka... heh heh...
man, You just don't sound like one, dammit. (This shows my limitations, and absolutely nothing else... :o). All wives are dangerous, coming honey... :)

Matt Banks
05-04-2001, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by ian
P.S. some aikido techniques are great for disarming, but can put the position of the gun close to your ear. This will obviously give you long term hearing damage if it is discharged!

Ian

Hi,

Yep, its not easy to stop someone shooting you. Anyone who knows what their doing, wont let you in close enough to use a tecnique. So just use ki and bend the barrel of the gun. ha ha.

I read a book when o'sensei was asked this questiopn ''So what if someone decides to shoot you from a long distance''

His answer was something on the lines of

''There is quite a long time between someone having the incentive to shoot you, and them actutally doing it''

I feel this was a good answer. He wasnt talking about the time taken to pull the triger but when someone decide to find a gun and use it. Others may read it diffrently.

When Soke Maasaki Hatsumi was asked the same question he said ''ask for a divine intervention from god'' he was being humerous as ever, but I feel this also to be a good answer. Read it how you will.


Matt Banks

Anne
05-04-2001, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by AikidoSteve


And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

And we can't forget this famous quote "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -- Adolph Hitler, 1933

And then when Germany established gun confiscation in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Of course Aikido was still in its infancy then. In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you. Don't believe the press 100% as they like to sensationalize the news.

And your Sensei is right - run and take cover.

Respectfully Yours in Aikihood from the USA



Just another time zone victim...

I didn't take anything personal but I would like to add some remarks (nothing personal, too)

- as PeterR pointed out already, life in countries with gun control isn't less free, especially not in Germany. Personally, I wouldn't want to define my freedom by the way a country handles its weapons issues.

- I just wanted TO AVOID another gun control discussion because we had that already on this forum (and I know it is a somewhat controversial issue in the USA) by stating that it is far more likely to be the victim of a robbery at gun point in the US which as far as I know is more of a statistical fact than sensational news.

-By the way: it is much easier to get a licence for owning a weapon in Germany than you may think. It's far easier than getting a driving license. I do a lot of sailing so I have a license for owning a Very pistol. It needs 30mm phosphorus ammunition designed to burn in heavy weather and even under water. If someone gets accidently shot with one of these he will die almost certainly. And the test to get it was just a joke.
So I know what I'm talking about.

-The way a country handles the control of weapons has a lot to do with tradition. E.g in Japan every shinken has to be registered with the police. Here, even sharp blades are sold as decoration objects without caring who buys them. So our traditions regarding this issue are just different. I think it's the same with the US and Europe.

-as far as the history of our countries goes, every nation on this earth has black spots on the race/religion chapter and we are all glad to have overcome these dark times.

I hope we got all the points clarified now and can go back to the original topic.
As I said I didn't take anything personal and I hope it's the same with all of you.

yours
Anne

P.S: Thank you, Jim23, for trying to help me.

Dajo251
05-04-2001, 10:30 PM
I think that the idea of gun control is a joke because if someone really wants a gun they will go out and get one weither legally or illegaly. on an other note it is easyer in the U.S. to get a drivers license than a gun but a car can be just as deadly if not more deadly than a gun( a little off topic but since i started this thread i figured i would add somthing)

Dan Hulley

andrew
05-05-2001, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Dajo251
I think that the idea of gun control is a joke



Well, it is when there's already millions of them around. When you don't actually have a large supply around, it's a pretty good way of keeping guns off the streets.
andrew

Ray Kissane
05-15-2001, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Jim23


Regardless of where you live, you might have a little trouble outrunning a bullet. Dodging them ... well, that's another story. ;)

Regarding a knife attack, I was taught that the attacker to be extra careful with, was the person who attacks with the knife above his head (fist above the head). They're out for the kill, as opposed to just slashing you.

Jim23

In Nihon Goshin Aikido we pratice several hand gun and some long gun(rifles) defenses. I have taught these to police officers who have requested this type of training to assist in their job. I know that the FBI has a training program for their agents at the academy on hand gun defenses also.

The military and police practice shooting at 10-15 foot ranges for two reasons. The first is that is the environment that they will find themselves in where they may have to use their weapon will have a range between them and a suspect of about 10-15 feet. The second being when using a pistol, most people can not hit a target at over ten feet accuratley with out practice .

Based on this if a person where to get distance between themself and the attacker they have a better chance. Also the defender needs to present the smallest target possible so by turn their side towards the attacker they become harder to hit.

Also with a knife over the head this is an attack by someone with little or no training. A knife fighter will use slashing to create multiple wounds to send the body into shock quickly. When the body goes into shock it becomes very hard to defened. With a slash the knife will not become lodged in the body like with a stabbing motion. When a knife is used in a stabbing motion the body wound will close on the knife so that it becomes very hard to remove it. That is why military knifes have a blood groove in them.

My sensei Mr. MacEwen has several tapes out and he has one that is devoted to hand gun defenses. His web address is http://www.aikido-macewen.com/videos.htm if your interested in the tapes.

Kissane

aikilouis
05-15-2001, 02:57 PM
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.
My personal position is : raise my hands, obey what I'm told, try to negotiate if possible, prepare to die if not (prayer, anyone ?).
I had an experience as an hostage in an armed robbery, and believe me, you don't want anybody to get nervous with brisk moves. That's why I'm quite interested with what REK (who previously presented himself as a crisis negotiator) has to say about such cases.

Brian Vickery
05-15-2001, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.


....How about the other side of the coin here! I'd feel pretty bad if one of my students was confronted by a gunman and didn't have a clue what to do in this situation, ending up being shot or even worse killed!

...You folks probably all practice tantodori or tachidori without even batting an eye about the consequences of doing these techniques ...or should I say, muffing these techniques. (Yah, Yah, that's just 'dojo-stuff', your not learning these techniques to really use in the street, right!)

...The reality of this world is that the most likely weapon you're going to see stuck in your face is a gun! I want my students to at least have the ability to do something if they feel they have no choice. Not teaching them how to deal with a gun would be irresponsible on my part in my opinion.

...Hey, you don't have to do a thing if this happens to you, it's your choice ....that is if you know how to do something ...if not, you have no choice!

KeithP
05-15-2001, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.


What about if a student is injured in an unarmed situation? Or a situation involving a knife? I do not think that an instructor should be responsible for the decision a student makes outside of the dojo. Hopefully the instructor has given the student the physical and ethical tools to make a good decision, but the responsibility for the decision should rest upon the student who chose to study aikido, got into a dangerous situation, and then used the art to extricate him/herself.

Originally posted by
That is why military knifes have a blood groove in them.

Perhaps I am incorrect on this, but if the terminology of swords applies to knives, the "blood groove" is more accurately called a fuller. They were not added to swords for the purposes of breaking the suction of a wound, but actually to decrease the weight of the weapon. I believe that the fuller also increased the rigidity of a blade in much the same way a piece of paper is easy to bend if there are no folds, but much more difficult to bend perpendicular to any existing folds.

Keith Penner

Erik
05-15-2001, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Ray Kissane
Also with a knife over the head this is an attack by someone with little or no training. A knife fighter will use slashing to create multiple wounds to send the body into shock quickly. When the body goes into shock it becomes very hard to defened. With a slash the knife will not become lodged in the body like with a stabbing motion.


I just wanted to add that I've always been taught that if you can see the knife the attacker probably doesn't know what they are doing with it, or, it's being used for threat purposes which hopefully means they don't intend to kill/cut you with it. This would imply that handing over your wallet is a good thing if the attacker is showing you the knife.

The other thing I was always taught is that if something does go down with the knife, you will get cut.

I would imagine the same rules apply, at least somewhat, with a gun. I don't know about anyone else but I don't have any illusions about disarming a knife.

Lastly, I do believe that Mr. Jim was having some fun with that knife above the head comment.

PeterR
05-15-2001, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.
This is actually a good question well beyond dealing with guns.

We teach/learn techniques in the dojo that are supposed to be useful is self defense. Even if your goal in Aikido training is something else - the root of what we do is a series of highly efficient techniques designed to take out an aggressor.

A fine line is trod between instilling a level of self confidence and ensuring that the very same does not create a fool. You really must learn your limitations but it is the instructors responsibility to inject a dose of realism.

I am sure that one can use Aikido to deal with a gun, knife or name your weapon. I am not so sure that my Aikido can. I preach caution but if that doesn't work - well you can't tell me I didn't die trying.

Jim23
05-15-2001, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Erik

Lastly, I do believe that Mr. Jim was having some fun with that knife above the head comment.
Mr Erik,

I certainly would think twice about taking on some psycho with a knife.;)

Jim23

REK
05-16-2001, 06:53 AM
Aikilouis (Joseph):

What would you like to know? You may email me directly if you wish, so that we do not monopolize this thread (ok, so I don't monopolize this thread..!:D)

Rob

Ray Kissane
05-16-2001, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.

I teach the hand gun disarming so that the students have the ablity to know what to do in a stituation where a gun is involved. I do not want someone to try and take a gun away from someone without any training.

I have seen to many news clips where a good samaritan has been killed because they tried to take a gun away from someone. If they would of had some training they would of had the knowledge for the given situation to determine if it would even be feasible to get to the gun hand.

I know people who have been in this situations where guns have been pulled. One was an instructor in our dojo. A gun was taken off of a gaurd by a mental patient. He had the knowledge of what to do and what impact his action would have on others. Based on that knowledge he choose not to do anything because of the other people in the area would be endangered. He new that the police would be able to apprehend this person quickly and that nobodies life was at stake.

In anouther instance a guy was car jacked. This person felt his life was endangered so he had to take action. He was able to drive away with his car and the gun.

I think we all need some training just so that we understand what our limitations are. In the bigger cities they may not only rob you but shoot you too, what would you do?

Brian H
05-19-2001, 02:24 PM
Guns are an everyday thing and can present a real problem if you are forced to deal with one. Disarming techiques should be practiced as needed. Guns are around you all the time. I am even wearing one on my hip as I type this. (I'm a Policeman) When I was in the police academy we were taught afew simple disarming techiques and told "You will probably get shot doing something as silly as taking gun from somebody. If there is a 100% chance somebody is going to shoot you, why not do something that reduces the chance of you getting plugged to 75%" Virtually all Aikidoka have more hand to hand training than the vast majority of policeman. (Cops have the advantage of the occasional randori with unwilling Uke/ a humbling and enlightening experience) I went to a ground fighting school once and we spent three days wrestling around and striping guns from each other. The techiques are easy if you don't have to think them up on the spot.

Axiom
05-20-2001, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by wildaikido
Matt that sounds like fun (well not if you get shot) I would make sure I was wearing my judo gi :)
I just wish bi-bi gun weren't illegal in Australia.

There are a number of alternatives, though none of their necessarily as realistic- you could make a wooden rubber band gun, or if you're allowed to buy one, you could get a potato gun(messy, but it'd work). The best thing would probably be a squirt gun, if you can get those. Though I have no idea what that'd do to the mat.

My thoughts,
Alex Magidow

PeterR
05-20-2001, 09:34 AM
Kid's don't try this at home.

There is a story about Nariyama and some American sensei whose name escapes me. From a certain distance using a gun firing blanks the latter sensei could dodge the wadding. Nariyama tried several times and got pretty burnt for his failures. Not sure if he suceeded in the end.

It's a parlor trick that must be practiced to succeed.

It impressed Nariyama shihan.

A lot of pain was involved.

Jimro
05-25-2001, 09:55 PM
Don't run from a sniper, you'll only die tired.

Now I believe that we can safely rule out long guns (rifles and carbines) from this discussion. Handguns; single shot, semi automatic, revolver, and double barrel, seem to be the weapon of choice for muggers, creeps, and all sorts of unsavory characters.

I truly believe that most martial artists will not be acosted by an attacker unkown to them. Muggers and rapists prey on those whose body language marks them as an easy target. Anyone walking with situational awareness, and confidence, is probably much safer than the guy studying his shoes.

Now as to an attacker who is known to you, only you can judge. Someone who knows you, knows that you're a martial artist, will already be bent on murder or have a mind so clouded with emotion or drugs that they can't be reasoned with effectively. What do you do?

I try to live my life so that people don't feel any need to erase my existence from this earth before old age takes me. But say you have a former lover/spouse/teacher/student/family member/or postal worker who wants to kill/maim/hurt/stab/or mess your day up something fierce? How well do you know this person? Will your mind be clear and calm? Will you try to avoid hurting them and yourself? How much do you value your life?

In my opinion train to disarm an attacker. But only attempt it when the attacker leaves no other alternative. If you are on the street and the attacker wants you to get in the car, DO NOT GET IN THE CAR!!! Remember this, every situation you walk away from alive is a win. If the pistol goes off by your ear and you suffer permanent hearing damage? Oh well, at least you are still alive.

So keep on training and pray (if you're into prayer) that you never have to use it. Best of luck to everyone. On a side note, didn't the Okinawans creat Karate because their Japanese conquerors didn't allow them swords? I wonder what martial art will be created when we are no longer allowed firearms?

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.

Dajo251
05-25-2001, 10:23 PM
The comment made about being a target for a mugging if you are walking the street with bad posture is very valid but i was robbed when I had good posture if you wish to read about it it under the post"aikido usage" in the general section.

Dan

Jimro
05-25-2001, 10:38 PM
Well there's an exception to every rule, including this one.

Truly sorry you were robbed, very glad you're still with us.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.

Jim ashby
05-26-2001, 02:41 AM
In the UK private ownership of handguns is effectively banned. It's great, there are no more shootings and the murder rate is dropping through the floor. We all sit out in the evening watching the squadrons of flying pigs putting on aerobatic displays.
"when they outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them". True.
Have fun.

AikidoSteve
05-26-2001, 10:56 AM
I have read about a seminar given by a man named Pat Malone, who has been a body guard. He works for the FBI, and teaches police officers and Navy SEALS hand-to-hand combat.

Here are some of his thoughts on being accosted by someone with a firearm. Please note that the presentation I was reading about, was meant for the standard non-martial arts female. Though his advice, I'm sure, can be a benefit for anyone. He states:


If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN!

(a.) Police only make 4 of 10 shots when they are in range of 3-9 feet. This is due to stress.

(b.) The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times. And even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. SO RUN!

One of his main points during his presentation was "one needs to be aware of one's surroundings". Which is good advice as well.

A side note:
A U.S. author named Samuel Langhorne Clemens, a.k.a. Mark Twain wrote, "There are liars, damn liars and statisticians". With that in mind, I feel it important to note that folks will at times do better to look at original data in an effort in make informed decisions. Data that has been massaged by this "cause" or that "cause" can sometimes become misleading in an effort to lend support to a predetermined conclusion. The issues/statistics involving gun control in the USA are riddle with skewed data. I am inclined to believe the above numbers of 4 of 10 and 4 in 100. I have not confirmed the raw data but, as a person who participates in competitive shooting sports, I know how the lack of concentration and focus will affect one's final score (can't hit the target). Stress and distractions are not positive attributes to have to deal with when shooting.

Yours in Aikihood