PDA

View Full Version : Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


FeW PseudoSKIV
06-14-2005, 12:26 PM
What is the difference with the bukiwaza of Chiba Sensei, and the bukiwaza of Saito Sensei?

Rod Yabut
06-14-2005, 12:53 PM
Chiba sensei frequented Iwama a lot so you can start your research from there.

senshincenter
06-14-2005, 04:53 PM
I know (have heard) that early Chiba weapons was dependent upon what Saito was doing. It has been said that Chiba even made use of Saito's books on weapons during seminars, etc. I also know that when I first started, we were taught some of those Saito forms as well. However, today, I would say that the two systems are quite different now - if not completely different. These differences are not only visible in the actual techniques taught and used, but even in things as basic as how to hold the sword and how to cut with it. As a result, even universal elements, such as maai, are also quite different. As you can imagine, when the maai is understood differently, what one can and cannot do with the sword and/or the jo also becomes effected - making more major differences. Moreover, timing then is also understood differently, which in turns leads to more gross differences.

I think I am too bias, and not informed enough about the actual origins of both systems, to say much more than this. But you are in luck, both systems, as performed by each man, are on DVD/VHS - so you can also look at them for yourself and see what you see. I believe each federation headquarters makes the videos available (for sale).

dmv

Janet Rosen
06-14-2005, 05:20 PM
However, today, I would say that the two systems are quite different now - if not completely different. These differences are not only visible in the actual techniques taught and used, but even in things as basic as how to hold the sword and how to cut with it. As a result, even universal elements, such as maai, are also quite different.
Yep. My first weapons training was in Chiba's lineage, and both bokken AND jo were handled very differently from the weapons work I've seen in the other aikido dojo I've trained in since then.
The jo tsuki, for instance, as I recall (and here my years ago and limited experience will yield happily to a current and more advanced student!) ends with the back end of the jo drawn up under the forward arm, sort of giving it, to me, a coiled feeling, rather than the down at the center other forms use.
I really loved the 8 step bokken kata and have tried to keep solo training with it.

Rod Yabut
06-14-2005, 06:24 PM
Hi David, very nice explanation. Quick question for you, I know that USAF-WR has a weapons seminar at the end of the year, do you think I would be a fish out of water (being a non USAF-WR) if I attended it and have had only minimal exposure to Chiba sensei's weapons work?

senshincenter
06-14-2005, 06:36 PM
Hi Rod,

We are presently independent from the WR - as you can read on our web site - but that seminar was usually attended by people of all rank and experience. Also, for the most part, many classes are dedicated to one basic and/or one set or form - as a result, one has many hours to learn something new and/or to penetrate a given aspect more deeply. When I first started attending that seminar, there were times when I went in having no idea knowing what we were working on, but by the end of the camp I knew it quite well due to all the hours and help for partners who already knew it. In short, I would suggest that you feel free to look to such a camp to provide you with something new and/or to provide you with more depth - rather than seeing it as a place to practice what you already know and thus becoming hesitant in the face of what you have yet to learn. I say, go for it! It's a great camp - always. Do it you can - feel confident about going as you are, wherever you are in your training.

btw - we also have some video of some weapons work based on Chiba's teachings on our web site. I would tend to see them as quite different from Saito's - with this visual maybe others would see why and/or could see why. Any faults however our my own failure to penetrate Chiba's teaching more fully. I do not want to hold that up as an example of Chiba's weapons system. It's just an example to take a look at. If you want to see Chiba do some weapons - as I said, one can get the videos from his federation headquarters.

thanks,
david

FeW PseudoSKIV
06-14-2005, 07:07 PM
If anyone would be willing to provide me a link to a bukiwaza dvd set of his, I would be more than greatfull. Thanks

senshincenter
06-14-2005, 08:02 PM
Nicholas,

If you google "Aikido Western Region Chiba" I'm sure you'll get his federation web site - from there you can follow the link to "videos" and find what you are looking for. If you need more help than that or if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask away - I will try to help as much as I can.

thanks,
dmv

Tubig
06-14-2005, 10:02 PM
Not only Chiba and Saito Styles are different. The Hitohiro Saito Sensei version is also unique. :)

The jo suburi kamae is more linear and feet are different. It is actually more powerful and has more hip in it. I tried against a tree the ski I mean. give it a go. ;)

FeW PseudoSKIV
06-20-2005, 06:12 PM
I hear Chiba weapons are more comprehensive and complete then the Saito system...I this true? I also hear that Chiba places more importance on learning weapons

Rod Yabut
06-20-2005, 06:19 PM
David,
Thanks for the reply/advice. I think I will go to their weapons seminar this year. From your explanation, I have no reason not to!

Rod

Tubig
06-20-2005, 10:38 PM
Well in Sydney. We train four times a week, one hour of weapons then after an hour of taijutsu per session. We leave a pair of weapons at the Dojo, and we have another apir at home for the tanren and suburi practice. After an hour of weapons strength, power, and unnecessary speed disappears due to tiredeness. The taijutsu just become more reliable on technique, timing, and angle. At gokyu we need to demonstrate Jo and ken Suburi for grading. The weapons class is compromised of a lot of partner practice usually the 31, kumitach, and kumijo. Hence Iwama aikido is very traditonal and weapons oriented. I guess it does not really matter wether it is Chiba or Saito it is still aikiken and aikijo. It is designed for aiki, unlike kenjutsu which is designed for the battlefield.

PeterR
06-20-2005, 11:35 PM
It is designed for aiki, unlike kenjutsu which is designed for the battlefield.
Both ideas are trite and incorrect.

Most kenjutus schools are edo period constructs and as relevant to battle fields as Aikido. You might have a case if you said dueling but even that can be considered a stretch. Aiki - is originally a kenjutsu concept.

George S. Ledyard
06-21-2005, 12:42 AM
Chiba Sensei handles his bokken more as if it's really a shin ken (live blade) rather than a wooden sword with which to strike something. This isn't surprising since he is also an Iaido shihan under Mitsuzuka Sensei.
The Iwama method of cutting doesn't actually have much to do with actual cutting with a shin ken.

Dazzler
06-21-2005, 04:10 AM
The Iwama method of cutting doesn't actually have much to do with actual cutting with a shin ken.

Using a huge generalisation. and following on from Georges post...To me there seem to be two camps on weapons usage....1 camp focusses on using the weapons as they were originally intended.

The 2nd camp uses them simply as tools to develop aikido bases..breathing, posture, position, blending etc.

I think this extends to the Tai Jutsu work too...some train to perfect the technique itself...others train to perfect the bases which underpin the work.

I think this may be what Cromwell was saying.

In some cases the final forms will be like chalk and cheese...but for many the differences many be minor.

For the record I'm in the second camp.

Cheers

D

senshincenter
06-21-2005, 03:24 PM
I would agree with George and Daren here. Also - I think it is important to note that Chiba's system IS aimed toward improving one's body art, one's kokyu-ryoku, and one's capacity at aiki, etc. In that sense, there is no reason why it can't be considered an aikiken or an aikijo, etc., but we nevertheless don't want to fall prey to suggesting that they are the same things (i.e. that saito and chiba are doing the same thing). As I said in my first post, there are some major and/or fundamental differences between the two systems (at least now there is).

dmv

Tubig
06-21-2005, 10:40 PM
Both ideas are trite and incorrect.

Most kenjutus schools are edo period constructs and as relevant to battle fields as Aikido. You might have a case if you said dueling but even that can be considered a stretch. Aiki - is originally a kenjutsu concept.

I can surely see where your coming from Peter. Aikido came from jujutsu, jujutsu came from bujutsu. Aikido is based on the concept of the sword and jo. However Kenjutsu and Jojutsu is not aikido. Aikido has been modernised by Osensei from the battlefield concepts. One may have a slim chance to survive an empty handed multiple attacks in real life (God forbid) or in the dojo, but battle field style multiple attackers with weapons. Good luck mate!

Aikiken and aikijo is unique in its own way. Like Darren said it is used as base to improve ones aikido. If one uses for example kendo principles in aiki, the foot work is different already, hip is different, zanshin is different, blending is different. Hence, it is no longer aikido. I would like to see anyone try to do a koshinage using a kendo stance.

I am currently relearning some of Saito sensei's weapons. I have to learn Hitohiro Sensei's way. If there are some similarities with Saito and Chiba Senseis' weapons, well it is now definitely different and apart. Has anyone experienced Hitohiro sensei's way?

PaulieWalnuts
06-24-2005, 08:55 AM
I hear Chiba weapons are more comprehensive and complete then the Saito system...I this true? I also hear that Chiba places more importance on learning weapons

You have to be joking, COMPLETE?

Its pretty simple chibs time in Iwama was very little about 2 years i think on and off, he has decided to study a tradional weapons school, which in return has complletely change his taijustu to suit.

Saito on the other hand was simply following what his teacher taught him, and as he said he never changed what he was taught , where as everyone else did,
so now chibas aikido reflects nothing that Osensie was doing, he's even taking out hanmi which completly changes your taijutsu movements.

As for complete, thats rediculous saitos is Aikido chibas is not.
saitos weapons are the founders chibas are not

As for the H-bomb having changed things they are so small peole the changes are nothing they are simply his way of doing what his father taught. His posture may not look like his father but as usual everyone see's what the chief was doing as an old man with major back/hip and knee problems. h is in his prime his posture is exactley that of the founders.

senshincenter
06-24-2005, 09:58 AM
Obviously, you have a “favorite” here – which is a tad more than just doing what you do. That is fine. However, I do not think it is wise to define “complete” (or the relative descriptive of “comprehensive”) as only repeating what Osensei did decades ago. Such a position leaves no room for personal development, personal insight, or even artistic evolution. Underneath, it even presumes that Osensei’s weapons practice and curriculum was already in a state of completeness – which would be a hard position to sell. Personally, in some ways, I think folks like Shioda, Nishio, Tomiki, Saito, and Chiba, etc., have done a lot to make Aikido way more complete than it ever was for Osensei. To do that, in many ways, they have had to move beyond the idea of only doing what Osensei was doing. Thus, the fact that someone is not doing exactly what Osensei did should not be considered proof positive that one is seeing a lack of development, a lack of insight, or a devolution of the art.

Perhaps we can just ask Mr. MacDougall to elaborate upon what he meant by “complete” and “comprehensive” – that might bring more clarity to our discussion. At the least, it will stop these terms from being used polemically.

FeW PseudoSKIV
06-24-2005, 07:36 PM
My apologies. I have heard from multiple sources that Chiba Sensei places more importance in weapons than Saito, and the kata from Chiba sensei's weapons kai is more reminscient of kata from Koryu, than saitos. Saitos is more like a tool (From what I have viewed) than a self defense system. Just my two cents.

senshincenter
06-24-2005, 09:25 PM
Thank you Mr. McDougall for replying. I imagine then, by your latest comment, we can take the word "complete" to mean "a system that is designed to and/or capable of standing alone and/or functioning alone." Seems like a fair understanding of the word "complete" and also an adequate understanding of Chiba's weapons system. "In my opinion," I should say.

Personally, in Chiba's system, I have always understood that one IS learning how to use these weapons and that in doing so one is learning more about how to move one's body and thus how to do Aikido. I think if one were to understand Chiba's system minus the first element (i.e. how to use these weapons), one would be missing a lot. This is not to say that some folks that have trained in his system do not hold this very view (i.e. that the weapons are just training tools) - I'm sure some do (at least it certainly looks like some do).

As for what is going on in Saito's system, without direct experience, I don't feel confident in commenting on precisely how such training is to aid one's Aikido skill. Perhaps Mr. Miller can chime in again and comment upon whether Saito's system is an attempt to learn how to wield the weapons (primarily) or whether one is looking at a movement training device (primarily).

From what I have seen, not done, much of the movements in Saito's system, for both the sword and the jo, do not seem to follow the position that one is actually trying to use these weapons as ends in themselves and/or as endeavors that are worthy in and of themselves. From the position of wielding these weapons, in light of what you see in nearly any other school of martial arts related to these weapons, Saito's system contains many movements that would have to be considered to fall somewhere between "unique" and "odd."

Mr. Miller, would you do us the favor of commenting upon how Saito's weapons system is meant to relate to both the weapons themselves and one's overall Aikido? Please/thanks.

dmv

Greg Jennings
06-25-2005, 06:54 AM
Comparing apples and oranges is most often useless and frustrating....

TT,

senshincenter
06-25-2005, 09:50 AM
If we are going to look at how apples and oranges are alike, maybe. However, the whole point of gaining insight through contrast rests on the fact that the two things you are looking at ARE different. A good way of learning about the genus Citrus IS to look at the genus Malus. Sure, we have to be careful with our conclusions, but in my opinion we do not have to be so cautious that we cannot even begin such discussion.

Greg Jennings
06-25-2005, 11:22 PM
David,

I've trained around the edges of Saito Sensei's buki waza for 12 years. I've just barely scratched the surface of the deeper foundation in the past 2-3 years. I wasn't able to penetrate much beyond the surface till I also began to internalize the 4-layered pedagogial system.

Go hang with one of the inner circle long enough to really grok the jo and ken suburi. Then spend long enough to have a clue about the cause and effect relationships in the partner practices. Then come back and we can start to have an intelligent conversation. Till then, we'd be wasting our breath.

TTFN,

senshincenter
06-26-2005, 02:16 AM
Greg,

I certainly made it clear that I was ignorant of such depth concerning Saito's system - from the very beginning. That's why folks like Mr. Miller and yourself are important to such a conversation as this one (assuming your desire is to converse and not merely to get others to stop conversing). For myself, in choosing not to reciprocate your polemics, I am not a believer of the position that you personally have to go and study Chiba's system for over a decade before you can comment on Saito's system, and thus participate in a discussion such as this one. I am still interested in hearing of your deeper understanding regarding such an elementary issue of how weapons work is supposed to relate to Aikido body art under Saito's paradigm. Or should I assume that you ARE expert (or a person who has scratched the surface of the deeper foundations) in both systems - and thus that you know that one is indeed an apple and the other is indeed an orange and that any conversation concerning the two is impossible? If that is indeed the case, we will have to agree to disagree. I do not feel that this is a topic that falls outside of human intelligence, reason, and fair and honest exchange at a discursive level. (We are merely talking about pedagogical matters after all.)

If you'd rather not speak up, who can, or should, make you - not I. But please let those that wish to exercise their right to speak and to participate in this discussion do so without from the get-go hinting that what they saying is "unintelligent." After all, it is because we do not know everything, because we do not claim to know everything, that we find any purpose in coming together and sharing what we know with others that know something different from ourselves. For me, the very reaons why you hint that such a conversation is worthless, and/or why you suggest that we must train exactly like each other before we can come to understand more than we currently do, are the very reasons why this forum and this discussion can and should take place. Like I said, I wish you would chime in and enlighten us concerning what we do not know in regards to how Saito's system is supposed to relate to Body Art pedagogically. However, if you insist on remaining silent because you will presume that I, we, cannot understand such great insight without a decade plus of training that is similar to yours - sadly, we will have to agree to disagree.

Hopefully we will be able to converse in another thread.

Many thanks,
dmv

Tubig
06-26-2005, 07:02 PM
From the Sen suburi comes partner practice (kihon and Owase). From Jo Suburi comes partner practice (kihon and Owase). Then Osensei's 31 Jo movement comes in it also eventuates to partner practice. Saito sensei did not change Osensei's moves (it is a sacriledge and absolutely blasphemous to change the 31 moves), however he categories them and and develop partner practice fro them, again kihon and owase. Then comes kumitachi and kumijo this is always partner practice always starting at kihon with a two second pause. The kumitach and kumijo when one gets the hang of it always ends of in owase. From the kihon of kumitach and kumijo comes all the variation. So far five years of doing weapons four days a week, Marelli sensei always pulls one varaition or technique out of the magic hat that the class has never seen before, hence takemusu aiki.

The effects on the taijutsu is amazing. Less muscles are used (after an hour training, muscles are tired), more relaxed, big kiai, lower centre of gravity, and irimis are very angular. The two dimensional aiki is replaced by three dimensional kihon, and four dimsensional owase (timing). Zanshin I noticed is stronger. less flingeing, less anticipation, Maai is exceptional.

Saito was Osensei's longest live in student; 25 years in fact. We train hard, we stick to the basic. We cannot train aikido without training weapons. Like Saito sensei said; when training taijutsu think weapons (form, kamae, maai, Zanshin), when training weapons think aiki (blend, angles, relax, harmony). I am not sure about Chiba sensei's method, but experiencing Saito's takemusu kunren method I think it is excellent.

PeterR
06-26-2005, 07:40 PM
Saito was Osensei's longest live in student; 25 years in fact.
Not to nitpick - but no he wasn't.

senshincenter
06-26-2005, 07:56 PM
Cromwell,

Wow! That was great - thanks for chiming in and digging us out of that unnecessary silence. I do see what you are saying about how the weapons training greatly comes to influence Body Art under such a model. I think anyone set on denying the intimate relationship between body art and weapons art under Saito's paradigm would be hard-pressed to make such a point. It seems pretty obvious that it is there - even for a non-practitioner.

In your opinion, do you feel that the Saito's weapons training is primarily a weapons system (where you are learning how to use a sword and a jo) or primarily a training aid (where movements, spatial relationships, and timings particular to the use of the sword and the jo are determined by their intended relationship to Body Art)? Many non-practitioners have suggested that it is only the latter, and I have heard the same thing suggested by practitioners of the system in regards to them defending it from "attacks" from Koryu folks (i.e. folks that claim its movements are out of touch with "reality" - of course as they see it). Would you tend to agree with this or not?

Thanks in advance,
dmv

Tubig
06-26-2005, 10:16 PM
Thanx for the input Peter. Your contribution to the thread has an amazing amount of content and valuable contribution in it. When I go to training tonight I will mention to my fellow aikidokas and my senseis you know way more things about our sensei than all of us loyal and dedicated students of Iwama ryu.

David going back to the real topic of the thread. I would say that it has both aspects. A body art and a weapons system.

It is like atemi in aikido, it is part of it. Saito sensei mentioned in one of the seminars here is Sydney that aikido is 90% weapons, hence aikido is 90% atemi. From a kihon stance in ken suburi. Openings in your partner's technique has to be studied already. I guess that this mental state is very weapons oriented. How can I cut, ski, enter, owase, distance closing, avoid Ai-uch? When we get visitors from other Ryus (we are part of the big Aiki Family), The first hour of weapons really shows how much weapons one has done.

And occasionally we do armed jiuwaza up to four attackers with 2 second pauses in between techniques(that is usually the maximum attackers for this type of exercises otherwise it becomes a crowd control issue; hence very dangerous). There are Three types: First all have bockens including Tori, or second All are armed with Jo's, including tori, and last but definitely not least two holding bokkens, and two are holding Jo's, Tori picks his favourite weapon. In this particular training exercise the Saito system becomes a weapons system in itself, with the a very strong aiki flavour. I haven't participated with a full blown randori of this exercise, I have only seen it twice happen, the participants wore kendo suits and used shinais rather than Bokkens. I have never seen it done with a Jo, the full ramdori I mean. It can get really overwhelming, dangerous, fast, and definitely crazy. I can say that if tory has limited knowledge of aiki weapons, it is not kihon, he will not survive a minute of the exercise. :eek:

Well the taijutsu side is that it does improve technique, from grip to awareness, zanshin, breathing, postioning. It really helps my kokyu nage and irimi nage techniques. ;)

PeterR
06-26-2005, 10:29 PM
Thanx for the input Peter. Your contribution to the thread has an amazing amount of content and valuable contribution in it. When I go to training tonight I will mention to my fellow aikidokas and my senseis you know way more things about our sensei than all of us loyal and dedicated students of Iwama ryu.
One would hope that those students don't feel the need to embellish - Saito's history doesn't require it.

You mention facts - better check the meaning of uchideshi. Not sure - then ask your senseis.

senshincenter
06-26-2005, 10:36 PM
First, I want to apologize to Mr. McDougall for misspelling his name in a previous post. My sincerest apologize for my oversight. It won't happen again.

Secondly, I think the answer has been provided here. Both systems do have space to be claimed (as understood by some of their practitioners) as weapons systems AND as training tools. How much one is really this or that or not seems to be up to the individual practitioner. So, as for the word "complete," the same thing seems to apply. One will have to practice to see what "complete" may or may not come to mean. My own personal advise is to take whatever you are given, no matter how small or how great, and continue to develop it and yourself so that it can always be complete for you. For if you do not do this, even if something "complete" is handed to you, it will soon become "incomplete" via one's failure to penetrate the depths of that thing (and oneself) - where everything tends to speak of the universal or the great Oneness.

Tubig
06-26-2005, 10:57 PM
I think you nailed that point David.

Hear here!

PaulieWalnuts
06-27-2005, 03:47 AM
Peter said regarding saio senseis time with the founder-
Not to nitpick - but no he wasn't

Sorry mate but yes he was, its wel documented that he was a real uchideshi for just under 25 years, that means he was with him day and night from when he retired from the railways. No other student has this UNBROKEN TIME with founder, yes there are many deshi who trained longer with the founder than saito due to the fact they started much earlier, but that is only training time through different periods in time not a constant . In iwama there is a piece of paper showing all the top shihan who trained under the founder in Iwama and the first doshu in tokyo. Its clearly shows saito was the longest uchideshi, the nest i think if i can remember was tohei at 10 years unbroken and then there alot of different people from diffrent times, so once agian yes there where many studenst like tohie and shioda and tomiki who spent longer through broken periods, but saito never broke his training time until the founder died. Also he is one of the only post was shiahn to be only taught directly by the founder and no other of his studenst , where as all the tokyo students where mostly deshi of the first doshu, there is a n interesting article by 2nd doshu explaining that there where no real uchideshi after the war at the hombu only students.

As for my first post on Saitos vs chibas. its imple what saito says he was taught directly from the founder as he was developing aikiken and jo no other person got this kind of teaching as he was around all the time during the iwama years, which meant he was part of aikidos birth, he was the one osensei would always try his new weapons and taijutsu techs on. Hiss weapons are osenseis not a seprate martial art like chibas iwama buki is iwama taijutsu there is no difference, chiba has changed his taijustsu to suit the weapons he has learned, im not saying there bad, i dont like them but that dont mean there bad. Yes chibas probably teach you how to fight with a ken in a seprate way from aikiken but osenseis weapons are unbelivably affective when you truely understand the body movement and see the taijutsu as one and the same. This was what the founder taught saito to pass on to everyone else.

grondahl
06-27-2005, 04:19 AM
Steff, take a look at this thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8110&page=1&pp=25

It´s a matter of semantics. And Off Topic in this thread.

philipsmith
06-27-2005, 04:23 AM
Unfortunately this semms to be degenerating into a "Chiba vs Saito" thread.

I have known and been a student of Chiba Senseis since 1970 (although my contact is sporadic now due to geography) and I well remember Sensei using Saito Sensei's textbooks to teach Aikido weapons.

However Chiba Sensei continued to develop his traing in weapons; both Aikido ken & jo and Iai-do; and this has led to his perceived change of direction. He has always acknowledged Saito Senseis influenece and was I believe the first to bring him to the UK (Harrow 1977 or 78).

It is sad to see that some people in the Aikido community want to somehow set them up as rivals when in my opinion they are both integral elements in the development and evolution of Aikido.Unforunately a cult of personality seems to have grown around both men - remember they're human like us all and so are unique. That should be celebrated.

From my conversations with Chiba Sensei over the years there was no way that he saw himself in competition with Saito Sensei. I never heard him speak of his old teacher with anything but respect and perhaps we should all follow that example.

PaulieWalnuts
06-27-2005, 05:30 AM
Thought this thread was meant to be about the differences between saito and chiba?
im not saying chiba is bad, i dont like his aikido from what ive seen from his students and from what ive seen of chiba on video.
I think it is very important to remember though what the differences are, which is what this thread is about, is it not?

PaulieWalnuts
06-27-2005, 05:33 AM
Hi cromwell tell all at mics dojo that steff from scotland says hi. tell mic i and james i'm moving back to iwama next march for 6 months uchideshi. Ask james to contatc me but not at 2 or 3 in the morning like last time. how is the sydney dojo these days/ loved the club when i was there

Tubig
06-27-2005, 10:54 PM
Hey Stefen mate long time no see.

I will definitely say good day to the boyz for ya mate, and let James know the time difference between Sydney and Edinburgh :p

Hitohiro Sensei may be here next year. limited numbers so if you can drop by down under give us a yell. I will finally see the difference in the new Saito system from the Shihan himself. It was a struggle to correct my techniques initially but eventually this old body followed.

Stefan said good day as well. Mic Sensei split Stefan's jo in half doing the 31 owase when he was called in the middle. hehehe dark spotted gum, hard wood mate, $130 bucks down the drain. And the funny thing is Mic Marelli Sensei was using the lighter jo hehehe. Better the expensivem jo than a cracked skull. Howz Tom Anderson, is he still actively Evangelical about the good news of Iwama Ryu?

Tubig
06-28-2005, 02:35 AM
A question to the Chiba Sensei weapons practitioners:

Do your weapons system incorporate the use of tanto (suburi and dori) and shuriken training?

FeW PseudoSKIV
06-28-2005, 08:13 AM
A little tanto work. No shuriken. We do do Iaido though.

Tubig
06-28-2005, 06:28 PM
Iaido.. ?

Iaido in aikido (it also rhymes)

I think that is a unique feature of Chiba sensei Buki.

senshincenter
06-28-2005, 07:15 PM
I am pretty sure that Nishio also had Iaido made part of their overall training in his organization.

Tubig
06-28-2005, 08:06 PM
Pardon my ignorance, what style is Nishio?

mj
06-29-2005, 05:27 AM
Nishio was 8th dan Aikikai, 7th dan Iaido, 4th dan Judo and Karate, accomplished in Jodo and Spear. NIshio Aikido can fairly be seen as a distinct style.

Sadly he died in March this year.

When people like Chiba, Saotome and Nishio and others bring real weapons skills to Aikido they enhance it for all of us.

Tubig
06-30-2005, 12:16 AM
Sounds like Nishio sensei knows a lot. It always saddens me that such talent has left our world. May he rest in peace. I hope his spirit alive in your aiki.

Dunadan
07-16-2005, 08:44 AM
The incorporation of Iai practice is not unique to the styles of either Chiba Sensei or Nishio Sensei. Not all of the uchideshi/shihan sent from Hombu Dojo to promote Aikido worldwide were particularly forthcoming in teaching Iaido to their students, but most seem to have some appreciation of and familiarity with this facet of training. It is my understanding that the late Kanai Sensei, for example, only began to introduce his students in New England to Iaido after he had been established there for more or less a decade. In the schools of his that I have trained in, Iaido seems to be considered "separate from but complementary to" Aikido. In Chiba Sensei's style, Iai Batto-Ho seems to me to be considered a little more integral to the ryu.

A side-note on stances: Chiba Sensei's markedly linear Aiki posture is actually more literally hanmi, i.e. "half body". His Iaido posture is wider; I have heard it called a kenjutsu posture by my teachers. What I find interesting is that he has separated those two settings, whereas Kanai Sensei's sword posture appears to have influenced his Aikido posture as well (wider, not linear). I thin that is interesting and important to see these two different approaches from two learned contemporaries.

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
07-26-2005, 02:00 PM
forgive my ignorance, but what is Chiba Buki?

senshincenter
07-26-2005, 04:03 PM
There is nothing really called "Chiba Buki," but folks are using that phrase here to refer to weapons training as prescribed or laid out by T.K. Chiba, Shihan - from the San Diego Aikikai.

Rupert Atkinson
07-26-2005, 07:42 PM
I learned a set of 8+1 sword patterns - cut thrust-cut on a UKA summer school with Chiba Sensei in the UK in 1990. I liked them so 'kept' them and still practise them. In fact, it is one one of the vids I recently uploaded to Google Video. I just hope I have the order right ... At that time, Chiba taught some Iaido, and I also remember his different jo tsuki where the rear hand finishes up under the front arm's elbow. Rather than being 'wrong' I see it as 'different' - being able to thrust a little further.

Dunadan
07-27-2005, 02:21 PM
I also remember his different jo tsuki where the rear hand finishes up under the front arm's elbow. Rather than being 'wrong' I see it as 'different' - being able to thrust a little further.

I've been told that it has something to do with armour penetration, too. Not that we wear armour that often in the dojo... :D

markwalsh
07-27-2005, 03:26 PM
"I learned a set of 8+1 sword patterns"

This was the first weapons kata Smith Shihan had me doing when I started training with the (heavily Chiba influenced) UKA. The "pure reverse irimi" (turn the hips 180, then step through and turn another 180) part was particularly difficult at first.

It is directly applicable to tai-jitsu footwork - particularly for shihonage - and if I can see that it must be really clear! Useful set.

Mark

What's the +1 bit btw Rupert?

senshincenter
07-27-2005, 04:06 PM
In either case, I have always understood it to be related to back-up mass and body alignment - things that are central to target penetration in that they are architecturally set to address the opposite and/or reactionary force that is related to impact and/or the resistance brought on by the target and its particulars.

Rupert Atkinson
07-27-2005, 08:11 PM
I've been told that it has something to do with armour penetration, too. Not that we wear armour that often in the dojo... :D

I usually leave mine at home.

"I learned a set of 8+1 sword patterns"

What's the +1 bit btw Rupert?

Well, there were 8 techniques in the bokken set all related to Aiki movement. But when he taught it he did an extra one - the first one - to help learn the rest. Anyway, I like them too - and it will be viewable on Google Video soon so you'll be able to tell me if I have gotten it all wrong or not :)

Tubig
07-27-2005, 08:27 PM
Rupert,

Have you tried the 31 Jo movements by Osensei? It is pretty cool, especially when youre practicing by yourself. There is also partner practice that go with the 31 movements. It is very handy for maai, zanshin, and technique execution. The movements have a very strong aikido flavour for weapons.

Rupert Atkinson
07-27-2005, 09:04 PM
Rupert,

Have you tried the 31 Jo movements by Osensei? It is pretty cool, especially when youre practicing by yourself. There is also partner practice that go with the 31 movements. It is very handy for maai, zanshin, and technique execution. The movements have a very strong aikido flavour for weapons.

I first learned that in 1985. I have a google video of that too. Now, I am developing my own way out of the classical mess - basically I am groping towards a more realistic approach to weapons - you try to hit me, let's see what I can do etc. I call it - Assault and Battery :) and also include single-handed stuff. I am tired of kata and see it as going nowhere real.

Tubig
07-27-2005, 09:16 PM
heheheh Assault and Battery hey. What is the Japanese equivalent on that one?

If you have vidoes on the stuff that your working on, please email me. I like seeing great ideas in action.

Rupert Atkinson
07-27-2005, 09:29 PM
heheheh Assault and Battery hey. What is the Japanese equivalent on that one?

If you have vidoes on the stuff that your working on, please email me. I like seeing great ideas in action.

I have a brief note about it somewhere on my aikido-in-korea.com website and have uploaded loads of short videos to google - can't remember which exactly but there may be some that would interest you, except they are not viewable yet for some reason.