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Jarah
06-10-2005, 12:43 PM
greetings

This thread do not talk about aikido but talk about a concept in martial arts I thought it might interest some ppl here

Have you ever wondered how can Karate and Kung Fu practitioners break woods and bricks by their bare hands ? Well at least I wondered a lot as a martial artist and a doctor how can the human hand tolerate such a big trauma and still in one piece??

I had one instructional DVD about how they train for such martial art practice they call the techniques for breaking is the ( Iron Hand ) Technique the idea has many rules and it's not done haphazardly one rule which is this illustration about is the formation of ( Callus ) in the hands

Callus is a new bone formation after bone fracture they hit parts of their hands in bricks and woods for a long time daily which will causes small fractures in the hand bones leading to formation of new and stronger bone in the area of the fracture and by this the bones of the hand become so strong to tolerate such trauma of course there are other things like type of material for breaking and the angel of impact ect . But here I wanted to illustrate the anatomical part of famous ( Iron Hand )

This illustration I did for medical curiosity reasons and to present it in a lecture ... it clarifies this concept ... I hope u like it ( click to enlarge ) :

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/18271545/

cheers
Jarah

Mike Sigman
06-10-2005, 01:00 PM
Have you ever wondered how can Karate and Kung Fu practitioners break woods and bricks by their bare hands ? Well at least I wondered a lot as a martial artist and a doctor how can the human hand tolerate such a big trauma and still in one piece?? Hi Jarah:

Nice illustration! Just to chip in my 2 cents, there are considered 2 basic ways to condition the body, including the hands in "iron palm". One way is to do as you describe. The other way is to hit very relaxedly and not too hard for about 100 times a day for at least 3 or 4 months, each time 'bringing the qi" to the hand. In other words, there's a mental and bodily function that trains the flesh and bones. The point I'm making is simply that your illustration and comments are correct, but there is considered to be a "higher level" of conditioning than the one you're describing.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Chuck.Gordon
06-11-2005, 02:37 AM
Nice illustration and interesting concept. After spending many years doing striking arts and delving into the realm of hand (and body) toughening, I can atest to this kind of scarring (I suspect the 'callous' is really scar tissue).

I gave the conditioning up after some years though, and now view it as a bit counterproductive.

The human hand (and the human body) is quite a bit tougher than we think, and most feats of breaking and such are really more slight-of-hand, confidence and good physics than they are the result of iron-hand conditioning. That's just MHO, others' mileage may vary.

I don't buy into the concept of ki or chi as used by some martial artists (friendly wave to Mike!), but the idea of using the allegory of ki/chi to engage proper ergonomics and to develop a confident and focused mindset are perfectly on target.

The strikes we use in the system I study do not rely on conditioning, but one what we call a wave effect, using extension and contraction to create a soft/hard hand. It's way more complex than that, but not particularly mystical. It's, as I said, good ergonomics and physics.

I've known some old budo guys and folks from other martial traditions who've done extensive conditioning and almost invariably (there are a couple of exceptions, as there are to almost all generalizations), they wind up nearly crippled if they continue the process for many years.

Chuck

Mike Sigman
06-11-2005, 09:55 AM
The human hand (and the human body) is quite a bit tougher than we think, and most feats of breaking and such are really more slight-of-hand, confidence and good physics than they are the result of iron-hand conditioning. That's just MHO, others' mileage may vary. Hi Chuck:

I tend to agree. I can do some spectacular breaks once every 3 years or so when someone convinces me to do it, but I'm always a little embarrassed to be caught in those situations because it reeks of carnival shows and the type of martial arts BS I sort of dislike (mainly because it's beside the point, I think). The main focus is on physics, as you say, although conditioning plays a part. I don't buy into the concept of ki or chi as used by some martial artists (friendly wave to Mike!), but the idea of using the allegory of ki/chi to engage proper ergonomics and to develop a confident and focused mindset are perfectly on target. (Waves back with grin) Well, remember that I've said a number of times that "ki" is a generic term (I'm talking about the body usages, not all the others, at the moment)that encompasses 4-6 main factors of body skills (which seem to work in unison at times, but I can't fully get it past the imaginary physiologist in my mind). If I "hit" you with my ki, it refers to two main factors of kokyu and the body skill/conditioning deriving from breathing and movement practice. But focusing in on the specific conditioning, not the act of hitting, let me tell a quick relevant anecdote involving one of my teachers:

Once we were at a restaurant with a group of people and some people were discussing the different ways to cheat at ki/qi demonstrations, particularly the one where a spear point is placed at someone's throat and he leans into the spear so that the shaft of the spear bends in the hands of his assistant (there's several ways to cheat this a bit). My teacher , when asked, agreed that a lot of those demonstrations had an element of cheat to them but he said that there is a real skill like that if you train right. He stood up, took one of the unused bamboo chopsticks from in front of my plate and placed the pointy tip against his throat between the adam's apple and the hollow at the clavicle. Then he turned around and faced the brick wall behind him (by now most of us were up close and peering intently) and placed the blunt end of the chopstick horizontally against the wall. Then he suddenly made a pulse of power/movement straight into the wall. The chopstick splintered into its bamboo fibers. Everyone (including me) was stunned. When asked how he did it, my teacher said, "some people call it qi... but in this case it just shows the human body can be conditioned more than most people realize."

It's this same kind of conditioning I'm talking about, Chuck. I know how to do it and I vaguely do some of it sometimes (used to do more), but a lot of these things boil down to how much time you want to devote and how driven you are to condition any and everything of your body. Besides, this other kind of conditioning is fairly well known, it turns out, so I'm not positing anything really new, except to people who haven't encountered the idea. Even Shioda's book "Aikido Shugyu" mentions that with proper training the body becomes more or less impervious to blows... same thing.

Regards,

Mike

Jarah
06-11-2005, 10:46 AM
greetings

Thnx guys for replying and for ur interest in my illustration

I illustrated the conditioning part of the Iron hand ... of course it depends on alot of physics on how to strike, the angel of impact and the force

what made me interest in such concept a small discussion with a master in Jeet Kun Do ... he was chatting with me that there is no such Ki concept and it's very big lie that is belived by millions because of the famous concept ( if u want to lie, say a big lie so people can belive u ) ... he told me ur Ki power is useless without a good grip and a good punch ... although I'm practicing Ki exercises daily I feel a stronger grip and fist, the way he was mocking my belives annoyed me ... he really have a powerful grip and punch ... which made me want to increase my skills and power by knowing the concept of Iron hand .... but of course the idea of making small fractures in my hand and the formation of callus over the metacarpal bones + future possibility of arthrosis in the hand scarred me so I forgot about the idea

Still what he said concern me ... he said that Bruce Lee is a legend in martial arts and if u want to be a strong martial artist u have to walk his path ... not wast time in mystical belives ... and he told me that whenever I feel that Aikido is powerful enough to withstand a good fight, I'm welcome to try it with a student of his ... of course I didn't reply because chatting of this kind is pointless ... I'm feeling Ki ... and I'm feeling an effect ... I won't disbelive my senses that easily

cheers
Jarah

Mike Sigman
06-11-2005, 12:53 PM
what made me interest in such concept a small discussion with a master in Jeet Kun Do ... he was chatting with me that there is no such Ki concept and it's very big lie that is belived by millions I think the real problem is that there really is a Ki, it's just that it's not myterious-force-permeating-the-universe that a lot of people think they're talking about when the topic of Ki comes up. When a real martial artist has ki he has certain demonstrable and reproducible skills and things that he can do. I agree with your friend that the mysterious force concept of Ki is a lie.... but when he says it like that I also know that his level of skill in the real martial arts is not that high. ;).. he said that Bruce Lee is a legend in martial arts Only in the West back during a time when the level of martial arts was pretty low and "judo" was considered high-tech. ;)

Mike

Chuck.Gordon
06-12-2005, 04:15 AM
I think the real problem is that there really is a Ki, it's just that it's not myterious-force-permeating-the-universe that a lot of people think they're talking about ...
Mike

Bingo!

And hopefully, when you get to Europe, we can sit down with some excellent beer (ever had zoigl?) and have a good chat.

Chuck

Kevin Leavitt
06-12-2005, 05:29 AM
Only in the West back during a time when the level of martial arts was pretty low and "judo" was considered high-tech.

Interesting perspective Mike...Never really thought about this perspective. No disrespect to Bruce Lee, but today, his ideas are not so revolutionary. I think he'd be pretty happy with the evolvement of martial arts, particulary in the MMA arena, which alot of exciting things are going on. The internet of which is playing a part in big time in getting people together and talking about MA in general.

Chuck, I should have some time in July to get up your way after the rotations are over with here at CMTC. Would love to talk and train with you instead of just talking over the internet occassionally.

I guess I would somewhat disagree with the KI concept Mike proposes, or maybe not, it is really kinda abstract, philosophical, and sematics plays a huge part...and that makes it difficult to express on a forum. KI is in everything, from my point of view, it is what organizes the universe. It is not really all that mysterious, I think quantum physics is the closest to explaining it. Can you "channel it", throw it, project it...I think not. Can you gain a mental picture of it? certainly, can you gain an awareness or consciousness about it...yes. Can you undestand how your body relates to it, and moves in relation to the rest of the world...yes.

I have never seen a bright light, or felt my fingers tingle, but on a rare occassion, I have felt a deep sense of connection with my training partners, not mystical...but when the mind, body, and soul come in sync with everything else in the situation...the sweet spot is wonderful! :)

Mike Sigman
06-12-2005, 08:38 AM
Bingo! And hopefully, when you get to Europe, we can sit down with some excellent beer (ever had zoigl?) and have a good chat. Love to. I've never had Zoigl. Probably my favorite beer in Germany is Dinkel-Acker.. I lean toward Helles and lagers. But I'm open to new things. ;)

Mike

Mike Sigman
06-12-2005, 08:42 AM
Interesting perspective Mike...Never really thought about this perspective. No disrespect to Bruce Lee, but today, his ideas are not so revolutionary. I think he'd be pretty happy with the evolvement of martial arts, particulary in the MMA arena, which alot of exciting things are going on. The internet of which is playing a part in big time in getting people together and talking about MA in general. It's a good thing. Martial arts are evolving toward the better, for the most part, regardless of the large groups of people who are into them for other reasons.

Best Regards,

Mike