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Red Beetle
06-10-2005, 12:31 AM
Here are some things Aikido should incorporate into its system from Capoeira:

1) Capoeira teaches its students to play instruments
Now, would we not love to see sensei just burning up an electric guitar while some cat executes iriminage?

2) Capoeira teaches its students to sing
Wouldn't we all benefit from Aikido songs such as:
A) The ballad of Uyeshiba (a hippie folk-song)
B) I gave up happiness for a black-belt in Aikido and have been miserable ever since (this would clearly be a country song)
C) We all live in an Aikido submarine (a Beetle parody)
D) Aikido-tallica (heavy metal song about Aikido)

3) Capoeira teaches its students to dance
Someone recently told me that Aikido already does this. That is, when your partner doesn't offer resistance, but rather, follows your lead, then you are just dancing.

4) Capoeira teaches its students to spar with resistance

Aikido would need to figure out a way to do this without eliminating number 3.

5) Capoeira teaches its students to be tricky

Maybe Aikidoka could just tell their Uke that they are going to do Kotegaeshi, but then yell, "Psyche!", and do shiho-nage instead!


The above is a start.
A good start, but we will need the help of countless loyal Aikidoka in order to make this work. The reformation of Aikido depends on you.

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Yann Golanski
06-10-2005, 02:29 AM
5) Capoeira teaches its students to be tricky

Maybe Aikidoka could just tell their Uke that they are going to do Kotegaeshi, but then yell, "Psyche!", and do shiho-nage instead!


Nah, Kotegaeshi goes into shomen ate or aigamae ate which all forms of irimi nage for none Shodokan folks....

I've discovered that there are class in York. I'll be going next week. Will post thoughts.

xuzen
06-10-2005, 02:44 AM
Yann,

Not forgetting kotegashi can also go quite easily to ude garame.

Boon.

Yann Golanski
06-10-2005, 04:16 AM
Xu,

Yes, that's true as well. I tend to go for the irimi/tenchi nage angle as I find that they work for me. Well, for some value of "work"... *grins evilly*

Randori at the moment is spend trying to figure out how not to get kotegashi slamed on myself. I am getting really tiered of being taken down by it. I know that gkyaku gamae ate (kokunage) is the way forward but it takes time to get that one right. Must improve timeing...

xuzen
06-10-2005, 04:55 AM
Xu,

Randori at the moment is spend trying to figure out how not to get kotegaeshi slammed on myself. I am getting really tiered of being taken down by it.
<Borg voice>...Resistant is futile...<end of Borg voice>. Remember that phrase?

I know that gyaku gamae ate (kokyunage) is the way forward but it takes time to get that one right. Must improve timing...
This tech when done properly is one of the most beautiful technique in aikido repertoire, me thinks. After Shomen-ate, aigamae-ate, gedan-ate and all the ate techniques. But then maybe I am just such an ATEMI kind of GUY. :D :D :D

Boon.

Yann Golanski
06-10-2005, 05:00 AM
<Borg voice>...Resistant is futile...<end of Borg voice>. Remember that phrase?


Yeah... it's from some TV show isn't it?...


This tech when done properly is one of the most beautiful technique in aikido repertoire, me thinks. After Shomen-ate, aigamae-ate, gedan-ate and all the ate techniques. But then maybe I am just such an ATEMI kind of GUY. :D :D :D

*grins evilly* I still think my all time favourite technique remains shiho nage / tenkai kotegaeshi.

Yann Golanski
08-01-2005, 09:14 AM
Man, I realise that I did not leave some feedback on the Capoeira class... Bad me. So, here it is.

It was very fun. I've been going to a few classes now and have started to learn a few things -- yes, mostly basics. It's very different from Aikido but somewhat I found that some things do cross. First, the fall on the floor thing... Yeah, head stands, cart wheels and other things require that you "harmonise with the floor" (read: smash into it). Second, ma-ia (or distance) is crucial as well. It helps a lot. Lastly, it'll help my flexibility. Wither that or I will break. *grins evilly*

So, it looks like I've found another martial art to practice when I am not doing Aikido. I strongly recommend that you check a couple of classes in your area.

Michael Neal
08-01-2005, 09:36 AM
Here are some things Aikido should incorporate into its system from Capoeira:

1) Capoeira teaches its students to play instruments
Now, would we not love to see sensei just burning up an electric guitar while some cat executes iriminage?

No

w2) Capoeira teaches its students to sing
Wouldn't we all benefit from Aikido songs such as:
A) The ballad of Uyeshiba (a hippie folk-song)
B) I gave up happiness for a black-belt in Aikido and have been miserable ever since (this would clearly be a country song)
C) We all live in an Aikido submarine (a Beetle parody)
D) Aikido-tallica (heavy metal song about Aikido)

No

3) Capoeira teaches its students to dance
Someone recently told me that Aikido already does this. That is, when your partner doesn't offer resistance, but rather, follows your lead, then you are just dancing.

No

4) Capoeira teaches its students to spar with resistance

Aikido would need to figure out a way to do this without eliminating number 3.

Yes, absolutely

5) Capoeira teaches its students to be tricky

Maybe Aikidoka could just tell their Uke that they are going to do Kotegaeshi, but then yell, "Psyche!", and do shiho-nage instead!

Yes, its called randori

malsmith
08-01-2005, 09:54 AM
i think its great for people in martial arts to learn how to play an instrument,
cause i think making music and doing aikido are like the same thing,
its hard to explain what im thinking, i think its like aikido is an expression of what we feel inside using our bodies, and music is an expression of what we feel inside using an instrument of sorts.

Mark Uttech
08-01-2005, 10:07 AM
why are people always looking for something else?

Yann Golanski
08-01-2005, 10:33 AM
why are people always looking for something else?

Because I am a transhumanist who is not happy being what he is.

rob_liberti
08-01-2005, 11:04 AM
why are people always looking for something else?I think - it's because if they wanted what they already had and no more, there would be no need to look for something else. Did I miss the point?

Rob

L. Camejo
08-01-2005, 12:43 PM
Here are some things Aikido should incorporate into its system from Capoeira:

1) Capoeira teaches its students to play instruments
Now, would we not love to see sensei just burning up an electric guitar while some cat executes iriminage?

Ok, sooo I guess the harmonic, coordinated multi-tonal screams, groans, impacts and grunts of Uke hitting the mat or getting pinned hard during multiple attacker randori does not qualify as "musical"? evileyes

I thought it sounded pretty good when that serial killer A.I. on the movie "Virtuosity" did it. :freaky: Oh well back to drum school. :D

Yann - To counter kotegaeshi in resistance randori, extend tegatana (negates the twist), relax and overextend the initial kuzushi by entering and sinking then either stay low aand go for Gedan Ate or turn the hip and extend high for Gyaku Gamae Ate while his grip tightens as he is trying to recover or change the direction of kuzushi.

LC:ai::ki:

Roy
08-01-2005, 01:02 PM
What???????? Why don't Akidokas take ballet too! So they will be light on there toes!?!? And wear a tu-tu as well1?!?

RebeccaM
08-01-2005, 02:52 PM
It'd probably be a lot easier to move in a tutu than in a hakama. Have you ever heard of anyone tripping on a tutu?

markwalsh
08-01-2005, 03:31 PM
Rhythm, beauty, grace, humor.

...that T-shirts are better than gis, and how to stand on your head while still looking cool :)

Mark Uttech
08-01-2005, 06:10 PM
let me take what I said a little further. On page 48 in the book : Remembering O Sensei:
He said that Aikido was misogi, and so if a student wanted to train hard, they didn't need
to run around learning many different things. This would be to miss the point of Aikido.
O Sensei always said: "I give you all things. Why are people always looking for other things?"

Yann Golanski
08-02-2005, 03:44 AM
Mark, Roy,

Please do lighten up. There's no need to be either condecending or outraged. 'nuff said.

Yann Golanski
08-02-2005, 03:47 AM
Yann - To counter kotegaeshi in resistance randori, extend tegatana (negates the twist), relax and overextend the initial kuzushi by entering and sinking then either stay low and go for Gedan Ate or turn the hip and extend high for Gyaku Gamae Ate while his grip tightens as he is trying to recover or change the direction of kuzushi.
LC:ai::ki:

Thanks. The problem is that the kuzushi is done on second oportunity. It's Rob's favourite weapon as well so he's well good at it. I've started to turn my hand a little so that the kotegaeshi is harder to get. Of course, that opens me to wakigetamae -- you never can win, can you?... *grins evilly*

God, my randori needs work.

Ketsan
08-02-2005, 08:17 AM
Actually the Tutu concept has been hotly debated in our dojo for some time. So far it has evolved into a reversable thing made out of kevlar with woodland cammo on one side and desert cammo on the other with a large inflated ring as an aid to ukemi. It also has pockets for inserting ceramic plates.

MikeE
08-02-2005, 08:26 AM
Mark,

I understand where you are coming from. But, I've trained in a quite a few different arts, and as long as I keep them separate from my Aikido, I feel they are complimentary in that they help me understand the attacker's mind (and even more importantly...a trained attacker's mind).

Anyways, we can yap about this over the weekend. See you up at Llama-land.

As for Capoeira:

At one time I had Capoeira folks in one of my schools. I played with them from time to time. Very interesting art. I did have fun on one occasion by messing up my partners jenga by singing a song that completely clashed with the rhythm being played for our interaction.

Nice people and great energy.

RebeccaM
08-02-2005, 10:34 AM
Actually the Tutu concept has been hotly debated in our dojo for some time. So far it has evolved into a reversable thing made out of kevlar with woodland cammo on one side and desert cammo on the other with a large inflated ring as an aid to ukemi. It also has pockets for inserting ceramic plates.
I am having trouble visualizing this. Please post pics. :P

Mark Uttech
08-02-2005, 02:09 PM
Thanks Yann, you pinned my arrogance right down. Okagesama de. Mike, looking forward to seeing you again this weekend. Maybe this time I will get to find out which Llama is the Dalai Llama.

L. Camejo
08-02-2005, 05:53 PM
I've also found that there tends to be a lot of girls training and interested in Capoeira and they train in these cute white T-shirts. Much better than baggy Gi and Hakama imo (not that we wear Hakama).;)

Yann: Re- kotegaeshi and twisting - practice creating an untwistable defensive tegatana (like unbendable arm??), it is possible to do and a good way to block tekubi waza if your hand is centred and your back is straight also. Especially if you and your partner are sweaty.Trust me.;)

LC:ai::ki:

Meggy Gurova
08-02-2005, 07:25 PM
Since I train both aikido and capoeira... I don't train them to become the next Steven Seagal or Mark Dacascos. And I don't train them as selfdefence. I'm just interested in them as art, as some movements of the body, as well as a control to the other persons body with endless possibilities. And it's a lot of fun to train them both.
Please, don't mention ballet, I've danced ballet when I was younger. So I'm a ballet dancer in the dojo, but hopefully it 's not so obvious :D

Roy
08-02-2005, 09:12 PM
In all honesty, I think Capoeira is incredible!! There's a dojo here that practice in great spots by the ocean etc... Lord knows I do not have the stamina to do most of the moves. But, why can't Aikido just be a simple MA?

Neil Mick
08-03-2005, 01:52 AM
Here are some things Aikido should incorporate into its system from Capoeira:

Time I've trained in Aikido: 20+ years

Time I've trained in Capoeira (but not at present): 4.5 years

Conclusion: Capoeira has nothing to teach Aikido.

But, as an Aikidoist, I did learn a few things that affected and influenced my training. I just cannot sit out most roda's, when I pass one by.

So, there you are.

stratos patsakis
08-03-2005, 10:40 AM
please people do not critisize other martial arts styles!all styles have something to offer to martial artisits!!!please be open minded!!! :ai: :ki: :do:

happysod
08-03-2005, 12:02 PM
Stratos - I must be getting old and missing something - what prompted so many exclamation marks?

Anyway, on the contrary, I think you should criticise ALL martial arts, including your own, just make sure it's constructive and based on fact rather than what someone else told you.

Re singing and aikido - first person that starts singing in my dojo will be offered the easy way out - seppuka