what do you think??

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[daniel loughlin]

i have been training in aikido for many years now and will continue to do so.however i am thinking of taking up another art also either capoeira or wing chun.but i am not sure i should. also do you think my sensei would mind?? regards danny :p

[Stefan Stenudd]

also do you think my sensei would mind??I think that you should start by discussing it with your sensei.
Since you have already done aikido for several years, I would think it's not a problem. For beginners, it can be confusing to start up with more than one MA at a time.

[Paul Kerr]

i have been training in aikido for many years now and will continue to do so.however i am thinking of taking up another art also either capoeira or wing chun.but i am not sure i should. also do you think my sensei would mind?? regards danny :p

Cross training can have many benefits if you approach it correctly. In the time I have been practicing aikido I have actively cross-trained for periods in Hsing-Yi, TSKSR and Kendo. I enjoyed all of those experiences.

If you think it's an issue with your sensei, then speak to him. Most good teachers will not mind one bit and may even encourage you.

[CNYMike]

i have been training in aikido for many years now and will continue to do so.however i am thinking of taking up another art also either capoeira or wing chun.but i am not sure i should ....

Go for it.


also do you think my sensei would mind?? regards danny :p

Ask him.

[beanchild]

yeah definitely talk to your sensai about cross-training. mine is pretty cool about that, although he suggests that a student be advanced in our style before training elsewhere. i think it has to do with lessening confusion all around.

[aikidoc]

I would recommend dropping any comparison issues-don't try to insert you aikido in everything but learn what they have to show you and then do what you want with it after that.

[CNYMike]

yeah definitely talk to your sensai about cross-training. mine is pretty cool about that, although he suggests that a student be advanced in our style before training elsewhere. i think it has to do with lessening confusion all around.

I've never gone along with this. I had my first exposure to Aikido when I'd been doing martial arts -- in this case, Shito-ryu karate-do -- for all of about a year and a half. No confusion at all. If you want to do something and your sensei isn't having a cow, go for it.

[Mark Uttech]

Cross training is something that comes to us all, sooner or later. Generally it is much better to stick with one thing for ten years first. If, after ten years, you still want to cross train, you can either begin cross-training, or decide to train for another ten years first. In gassho.

[aikigirl10]

I'm sure your sensei wont mind, besides that , its your life , you can do what you want. And i strongly recommend wing chun. I take another type of kung fu (shaolin) , and i think its awesome. If wing chun is anything like shaolin , then you will absolutely love it. But dont forget Aikido!!! :)

-paige

[daniel loughlin]

thanks 2 everyone for your advise i can usually always get some good advise and different perspectives on subjects here thanks again danny

[CNYMike]

You're welcome.

[Adam Alexander]

i have been training in aikido for many years now and will continue to do so.however i am thinking of taking up another art also either capoeira or wing chun.but i am not sure i should. also do you think my sensei would mind?? regards danny :p

I say that you'll never catch on to Aikido if you're messing around with other arts...of what I've seen of other arts, you'll never catch on to them either while training Aikido.

Spend your time training in one...if you've got time to train in a second, you might as well just train in that because you're obviously not committed anyway.

[Charles Hill]

Interestingly, Yamaoka Tesshu, the Meiji era swordsaint, forbid his beginning students from even watching other teachers for the first three years.

Charles

[DustinAcuff]

Here's my two cents.

My situation may or may not be applicable, you are welcome to decipher it however you wish.

When I started Aiki arts last Sept. I was training BJJ and Muai Thai in an MMA style format. I was proficient enough on the ground to deal with the majority of the population, and proficient enough with standup to hold my own against the average person. In neither art was I close to holding my own with the other people there, most of which were 5-15 years older than me and had been practicing for years in various MAs. Frankly, I was not that good at either one because I lack the mentality to hurt people in the name of training.

When I picked up the Aiki arts I had a number of ingrained problems like grabbing, moving, almost everything, and was progressing pretty slowly. I asked sensei about what was going on and he said that training in other arts, especially hard arts, can cause conflict when learning to be soft. I stopped doing BJJ and Muai Thai and improved rapidly.

I could have improved for any number of reasons, and my experience may not be applicable as a beginner for your situation. But I do agree with my sensei in that if you are training to be hard you will become hard. Half the Muai Thai (only practicing Muai Thai) have an insanely agressive slant to their personalities and scare me to death because they are so unbalanced. Before someone calls me on it, I am not saying all MT does this, just a number of the ones I have met.

I've looked into Wing Chun and Caporeia in the past and would still love to train both. I'd be worried that Wing Chun would develop some bad habbits in my Aiki but maybe not. Try it. Caporeia looks like alot of fun, great exercise, ukemi practice, extra footwork, and like an excellent idea for cross training. I'm going to look into it after I move and see if I cant find a Caporeia school after I move if I'm not too busy and not too broke. But I will say that I wish I had spent all my martial arts time so far in my life (8 years) under my current sensei in Daito instead of anything else.

Hope something there helps you with your decision. The worst thing that can happen is you discover an art that you don't like. Good luck.

[Nick Simpson]

I often think about cross training and want to expand my knowledege and stuff like that. I like the idea of training in a very classical style of jujitsu or maybe daito ryu. But then I think that most of my spare time is taken up with aikido and I still have so much more not only to learn but to improve on, so Im going to keep at just aikido for quite a while. My friend is starting a judo class in september so i'll be going to that when i can. looking forward to it.

[CNYMike]

I say that you'll never catch on to Aikido if you're messing around with other arts...of what I've seen of other arts, you'll never catch on to them either while training Aikido.

I caught onto Kali pretty well to hear my instructor tell it while still doing karate, and never had trouble catching on to Tai Chi while doing karate and Kali.

In the year plus since I resumed Aikido, I've also been doing karate (with a college class, six months out of the year), Kali, Pentjak Silat Serak, and Aikido.


Spend your time training in one...if you've got time to train in a second, you might as well just train in that because you're obviously not committed anyway.

Been going to Aikido once a week for more than a year and have no plans to stop going. You're right, I must not be committed.

[CNYMike]

Here's my two cents.

My situation may or may not be applicable, you are welcome to decipher it however you wish.

When I started Aiki arts last Sept. I was training BJJ and Muai Thai in an MMA style format ..... When I picked up the Aiki arts I had a number of ingrained problems like grabbing, moving, almost everything, and was progressing pretty slowly. I asked sensei about what was going on and he said that training in other arts, especially hard arts, can cause conflict when learning to be soft...

I heard just the opposite from my first Tai Chi teacher --- that doing Tai Chi ("being soft") helps your 'harder' stuff, mainly because the 'harder' arts use the same internal dynamics emphasized in the 'softer' ones.

..... I stopped doing BJJ and Muai Thai and improved rapidly.


My take on it the problem wasn't the old habits -- you just had to learn the new ones. You have to learn to compartmentalize what you are doing -- keep MMA in MMA class and Aikido in Aikido class. And be patient. There are plenty of beginners in the dojo I go to and they have lots of problems; what are they in conflict with if they're not doing anything else?

Still, you made your decision already and it's moot. But FYI, you probably could have given that mix a few more months and seen where it went rather than just dropping stuff. JMHO.

[Adam Alexander]

Been going to Aikido once a week for more than a year and have no plans to stop going. You're right, I must not be committed.

LOL. Yeah, commited to walking up the path a foot, and then walking back down and over to walk up a different path a foot to walk back down that path to walk over to and up another path a foot to walk back down...LOL...to go back to the original path to go up a foot...to walk back down to the other path...LOL

You can't practice Aikido (and be remotely decent with it) without practicing a lot. If you spend one, two, three hours a week with it, maybe, someday, you'll be able to recognize a decent technique...Unfortunately, you'll be one of those guys/gals who thinks that what you know mentally will help you out of a physical situation that calls on no-thought response.

To the original poster, Aikido has every technique you need. If practiced and you're proficient, you'll never need anything else...but you can't get proficient if you're messing around with other arts.

[DustinAcuff]

I agree with Jean about being better off on one hill.

Mike, I disagree about training MMAs helping out my aiki. It slowed me down pretty dramatically because I was reinforcing my bad habits more than I was trying to form new ones.. But I will admit that my aiki did improve my BJJ. But neither point is relavent to the origional poster.

Nick, check out Daito Ryu. If you like aikido and are wanting some crosstrainng I bet that Daito would be a good answer to you. Daito would probably expand your Aikido skills into diffrent areas and your Aikido would soften your Daito making you even more fluid. It would be alot like taking a more comprehensive version of aikido, depending on your instructors.

[CNYMike]

LOL. Yeah, commited to walking up the path a foot, and then walking back down and over to walk up a different path a foot to walk back down that path to walk over to and up another path a foot to walk back down...LOL...to go back to the original path to go up a foot...to walk back down to the other path...LOL


Assuming the "paths" don't all cross each other as they go up the hill and it's easy to switch.


You can't practice Aikido (and be remotely decent with it) without practicing a lot. If you spend one, two, three hours a week with it, maybe, someday, you'll be able to recognize a decent technique...Unfortunately, you'll be one of those guys/gals who thinks that what you know mentally will help you out of a physical situation that calls on no-thought response.


Well, that's it for me, then. I herby resign myself to doing lousy Aikido -- if any at all -- because I'm not doing any arts I want to quit (including Aikido). I announce forever that any and all board members can disregard anything I say on the subject because YOU have prdedicted my Aikido will always stink.

Thank you for clearing that up. :grr: :mad:

Oh, and if you'd like to e-mail my Aikido sensei and let him know he won't ever be good at Aikido because of doing things like kenjutusu, I'll give you his address in a PM; feel free.

[CNYMike]

I agree with Jean about being better off on one hill.

I am on one hill; I'm just zig-zagging up it. ;)

[Adam Alexander]

I am on one hill; I'm just zig-zagging up it. ;)

:) Nice responses.

I'd agree, there's occasions where the overlap is beneficial. However, the consequences are so severe, it's not worth it. Cross-training is detrimental to Aikido development.

[Adam Huss]

Where I come from there are many pepole that do multiple martial arts. We were talking about this and my teacher told me that your martial art should be like a tree. You first need to build/grow a solid base, then go and grow your branches. I'm sure he said it better than me, but the point is that there is a necesity to have a very strong base before you move into other things or is is very likely that you will get confused. Now it seems you've gotten some good experience in Aikido and want to move on. I've always like the close-in Chinese arts. They can flow into Aikido techniques pretty well. Everything I know about Caoperia I learned from videogames...so I know nothing about that. As for your teacher, I would just ask him, or ask a senior, wether or not your sensei will be offended. I love cross training though.
Good luck!
Osu!

[Adam Alexander]

Adam, what level should you reach before branching out?

[Adam Huss]

I don't know if there is a specific level or whatever. I think a lot of people say around the shodan level. I'd say it depends on the individual though. Shodan is really a begining rank anyways, just symbolizing the fact that you do have a good solid fundamental base and are now ready to become a "serious" student. I had done GoJu Ryu Karate from the age of 9 till about 8th grade. Quite due to sports, got back in my senior year of highschool and the dojo I returned to started doing Aikido, so I started doing that. From there I got into Iaido a bit (but I've never tested in it). I've also done a bit of Uechi Ryu from time to time. Coincidentally all the martial arts I've studied are Japanese. I never actually realized this until a year or two ago. So its nice that they all fit in together in that way. But I've done some Chinese and Indonesian martial arts at seminars and I enjoy those alot as well.
When it comes down to it, I guess, you can never have enough experience..even if its a bad experience, you can still learn something from it. Its just important that, when cross training, you don't get things mixed up and get overwhelmed by trying to learn too many things that you are completley foreign to at the same time. And try not to be one of those "I have a shodan in 6 different martial arts" people. Not that that is wrong or anything, but don't let a 1st deg. black belt stop your training. I find that its better to have one or two martial arts that are your base and build those up for years and years. I would rather have a yondan in Aikido and, say, a nidan in karate, etc. than have a shodan in aikido, karate, jujitsu, pentjak silat, etc etc. I would recomend not to platuea your martial arts training, but at least pick one that you will stick with and continue to grow and get a no bullcrap deep understanding of one style.
Anyways, good luck with everything! Sounds like your on the right track. And let us know how everything works out.
Osu!

~Adam

P.S. Where do you train at in Detriot? Who do you train with? I am up there all the time (Mt. Clemens) and I love visiting as many different aikido dojo's as I can.

[Ketsan]

My advice is to learn as much as possible from as many arts as possible. Spare bow strings are always good to have should you ever need to use the bow.

[Adam Huss]

Oh yes, and when my sensei, myself, and some others started training in aikido, we found that the transition went pretty smoothly as we all had previous martial arts experience. It helped that we were a bit familiar with how to move our bodies and such. So we picked it up (aikido) a bit quicker than the average student straight off the street with no experience in marital arts whatsoever.

[CNYMike]

:) I'd agree, there's occasions where the overlap is beneficial. However, the consequences are so severe, it's not worth it. Cross-training is detrimental to Aikido development.

The only "consequence" I've had to deal with so far is a tendency to raise my rear heal when I should keep it down; that comes from throwing a cross in Panantukan (Filipino boxing). It's more of a pain in the butt than anything else, just something I have to watch out for.

For all other concerns, learn to compartmentalize -- do Aikido in Aikido and everything else in everywhere else. I was difficult at first because every other art where I partner train (including Karate -- Sensei Mike Eschenbrenner is pretty much doing his own thing) involves throws and joint locks; it was difficult not to compare and contrast, but as I get more of a "feeling" for Aikido, it's easier to keep them apart. You're more likely to mix up your courtesies than mix up the arts.

[Adam Alexander]

I've wrestled with cross-training a couple times since training Aikido. I found that when it came time to apply something I learned, REFLEX made me combine the different arts inappropriately.

If you want a reportoiry (sp?) of techniques to pass along. That's great. However, if you want a practical art, I don't think you should worry about how to handle ground-fighting when if you had spent all your time with Aikido and were good, you wouldn't be on the ground.

Same goes for fifty different types of strikes--you'll get all of them you need with Aikido (of course, that's style sensitive).


I never understand this. Around 3,000 techniques. And before people get to know those 3,000, they want to go look for another 1,000. Doesn't make sense.

[Adam Huss]

Given that you could spend an entire year covering 97 different techiniques, and given the 1,000 times each technique should be repeated before you have a good understanding of it, it seems almost imposible to memorize 3,000 techniques. I would think quality is more important than quantity. Heck, look at the Shihonage Sabu Chan story. Anyways, knowing lots and lots of technique is nice, but memorizing and mastering principals is much more efficient. Then you will start doing techniques you never learned (and you think your all awesome becuase you invented a technique until a few weeks later some is like "Oh yeah, thats ______ Nage/Osae/Otoshi or whatever"and your like "awwh, crap."

[CNYMike]

I've wrestled with cross-training a couple times since training Aikido. I found that when it came time to apply something I learned, REFLEX made me combine the different arts inappropriately.

May depend on how you trained; that's why Guro Andy said he and Guro Kevin have a policy of not letting people spar right away, so they use what they use in that class, and not what you already know. It can be done, but not everyone does that correctly.


If you want a reportoiry (sp?) of techniques to pass along. That's great. However, if you want a practical art, I don't think you should worry about how to handle ground-fighting when if you had spent all your time with Aikido and were good, you wouldn't be on the ground.


Always assuming that "don't end up on the ground" isn't a bit naiive. In any event, I'm not "worried" about ground fighting. I'm purusuing the arts that interest me, and it just so happens that ground grappling is a part of it (Kali's grappling system is called dumog).


Same goes for fifty different types of strikes--you'll get all of them you need with Aikido (of course, that's style sensitive).


Memo to me: aske Sensei when he gets to cross, hook, and finger jab. :)


I never understand this. Around 3,000 techniques. And before people get to know those 3,000, they want to go look for another 1,000. Doesn't make sense.

It's not so much about techniques as having tools for whatever range you find yourself at. And once you learn the principles, you generate technques.

[Kevin Leavitt]

It's not so much about techniques as having tools for whatever range you find yourself at. And once you learn the principles, you generate technques.

I agree, I have found that by concentrating on principles in aikido, that they are fairly universal. I have no problem transistioning from aikido to BJJ, for instance, because the underlying principles are the same.

Where I have had problems is when you go to a school that focuses on techniques such as joint locks, and they do not understand the underlying dynamics of principle. They will "adjust" your technique, even though you know intuitively that how you are doing it, while not exactly like their style, is correct since it follows the principles of proper body position and mechanics.

More often than not, I have found that I am able to show them "gaps" in their technique and help them expand the paradigm of their training. That is, if they are willing to be open minded.

Even in BJJ, pretty much everything works off a few basic postures such as the mount, guard, side control, and rear mount. Once you master the basics of dynamic movement, the permutations of techniques are endless!

Same with aikido, good kamae, good posture, everything is a derivation of a few simple postures and attacks from uke! I believe that once you have a sound base in principles, everything else goes much easier!

[Adam Alexander]

Well, I guess we all do what's right for us. I just stick to the line from Funakoshi: The Samurai of old had a narrow field, but plowed deep furrows. (If it's not exact, that's the point:))

[CNYMike]

^^ Funakoshi also wrote (in his biography which, now that I need it, has grown legs and walked off on me or I'd cite the exact page), that whereas many Okinawan MA masters (remember, karate as we know it had different names then) refused to let their students study under other masters, Funakoshi's teachers, Anzato and Itosu, not only encouraged him to study under other people but actually introduced him to other masters. We see the same trends today: There are some teachers who do not want their students study under anyone else, and even boot people who do; but others who don't mind, and some, who encourage it. (Three guesses as to which type I've forunate enough to have been exposed to.)

[CNYMike]

^^ Funakoshi also wrote (in his biography which, now that I need it, has grown legs and walked off on me or I'd cite the exact page)....

I found it!

On page 15 and 16 of Karate-Do: My Way of Life, Funakoshi writes that "Both Azato" (whose name I misspelled before) "and his good friend Itosu shared at least one quality of greatness: they suffered from no petty jealousy of other masters. They would present me to the teachers of their acquaintace, urging me to learn from each the technique at which he excelled. Ordinary karate instructors, in my experience, are reluctant to permit their pupils to study under instructors of other schools, but this was far from true of either Azato or Itosu."

Back on page 14, Funakoshi noted that "Azato was also a highly skilled fencer of the Jigen school of Kendo." So not only did Azato and Itosu encourage Fuinakoshi to study under people other than them, Azato himself may have been doing some crosstraining himself, because he was a karate master and a kendoka.

[Adam Alexander]

Yeah, like I said earlier...if your first priority is being a teacher or coming up with your own style...study everything. If you want to have a set of similarly principled techniques that build on each other, stick with Aikido.

I thought that was clear with the last posts.

Intersting quotes though. I think you've done a good job supporting what I'm saying. Funakoshi put together his own art and was a teacher. Therefore, it was good for him to study under many. However, when he referred to Samurai, he implied that the good guys only had a handful of techniques that they knew very well.

Thanks for the support.:)

[DustinAcuff]

just a question/point: when you plant a tree it grows branches on its own. when you plant many trees you get a bunch of trees not one tree with more branches. a newer idea is splicing together a branch from a diffrent tree so that certian limbs produce certian fruit. you dont need to crosstrain to become a better MAist. you can, and it will have reprocussions both good and bad, but you dont have to crosstrain to become better.

[CNYMike]

Yeah, like I said earlier...if your first priority is being a teacher or coming up with your own style...study everything. If you want to have a set of similarly principled techniques that build on each other, stick with Aikido.


My "priority" is doing the things I'm interested. I don't have a long term goal of forming my own style; I'm simply following my nose. That includes studying everything I've listed, and seeing where they take me. And as everything has "principled techniques that build on each other," I don't see a contradiction. And some principles pop up over and over: What a FMA person might call a branch-up joint lock, an aikido person would consider a variation of shiho-nage. Who's right? Both. The difference is in the persepctive and in the culture.

... Intersting quotes though. I think you've done a good job supporting what I'm saying. Funakoshi put together his own art and was a teacher .....

I haven't really read the book, so I don't know if that was his long term goal. But there's a flaw in your logic: If you stay with the same Aikido dojo and never do anything else, guess what? You will end up being an Aikido instructor, because that's what dojos do, produce instructors. (Or they should.)

...... Therefore, it was good for him to study under many. However, when he referred to Samurai, he implied that the good guys only had a handful of techniques that they knew very well .....

While that phiosophy informed Shotokan -- only 15 kata from 0 to black belt, though some styles and more and some styles had less -- it's wrong to think of the Samurai as having a narrow focus. Samurai Fighting Arts: The Spirit and Practice by Fumon Tanaka outlines how the Bujitsu systems were actually comprehensive, including many armed and empty hand skills, collectively known as juhappan, "the eighteen martial arts," they were either taught individually or collectively. When the modern budo systems -- Judo, kendo, nagatinado, karate-do (which is an import from Okinawa), aikido, Shorinji kempo and jukendo -- were developed, things were broken apart from the bujitsu systems and people began to specialize. And there's nothing wrong with specializing.

But the samurai were all-arounders. If you think they had the katana and some jujitsu moves, guess again.

[Kevin Leavitt]

When the modern budo systems -- Judo, kendo, nagatinado, karate-do (which is an import from Okinawa), aikido, Shorinji kempo and jukendo -- were developed, things were broken apart from the bujitsu systems and people began to specialize. And there's nothing wrong with specializing.


I agree. The DO arts seemed to be derived from the SU arts that were collections of warrior skills used in combat. The guys like Funakoshi, Kano, and Ueshiba figured out that these things when taught a certain way to people lead to strong healthly bodies and good citizens/people. They each seemed to distill fromt the systems those things that they were either strong in or more importantly felt that best represented the slant on what was important to convey their philosophy/way/or DO.

I bellieve where we (westerners) go wrong with these arts is that we lead ourselves to believe that they are still somewhat "solution sets" or holilistic fighting systems that can be applied today. We get romantic notions put into our heads by folklore and movies. Sure there are self defense benefits, and sure there are martial benefits to be gained, but I think approaching these systems with this as a major benefit or outcome leads to much frustration and misapplication of the system of study.

What I believe is important is that you meditate, decide, or figure out what your endstate is with respect to martial arts training and focus on that.

If it is to be a better person, self actualization, physical fitness, fun, community service etc...that is great and that you just need to find a DO art that fits your mood/philosophy/physicality/personaility etc. It might be many/several over the course of the years.

If your goal is to be a UFC/Pride or sport fighter, then you should find schools that will make you the best in that area.

If your a police officer, military, bouncer, or other professional, then you narrow your focus to teach you things that are helpful and applicable. That might come from one instructor, or many.

Or...it might be all these things in a different balance.

My point is this:

What is important is that you constantly evaluate yourself, try to be honest with yourself and your objectives, and not delude yourself into trying to make an art or yourself into something that you or it is not.

Mastery is an interesting concept. I highly recommend George Leonard's Book on Mastery.

Everyone has to make up his/her own mind about what mastery means to them. To some it may be defined as being a Sandan in aikido. To others 2 KYU in five arts. Achieving your endstate is what is important!

[Adam Alexander]

Dang. That was a lot of posts for everyone to agree.

To the original poster...The answer to what you should do is...depends on what your goals are.