Poll: Is the spiritual component of aikido inherent in the physical techniques?

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[AikiWeb System]

AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 29, 2005:

Is the spiritual component of aikido inherent in the physical techniques?

I don't do aikido
Yes
No


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=274).

[deepsoup]

I didn't vote in this one, because there wasn't a button for:
"What spiritual component?"

:)

[ESimmons]

I didn't vote in this one, because there wasn't a button for:
"What spiritual component?"

:)

I think "No" pretty much has that covered.

[siwilson]

I can't vote, as there is not a box to tick!

I think that what is needed is an "I don't care" option, and a "What spirituality?" option!

[Chef CJ]

I voted yes because of my own definition of spirituality as it relates to physical technique. Sensing the opponents movement and ki are very essential to a clean technique. That to me at least, involves a spiritual connection. Some may disagree and that is all well and good for each of us has our own approach which is what makes getting together with new people to study such an important aspect of Aikido training.

Thank you for your time.

[siwilson]

Sensing the opponents movement and ki are very essential to a clean technique.

Charles,

To quote Gozo Shioda Sensei:

"Ki is the mastery of balance."

Physical - not spiritual.

That is how I approach Aikido, and it has produced some good Aikidoka along the way. :)

Si

[James Davis]

The physical manifestations of aikido technique mirror the "off the mat" lessons that aikido has taught me. It's taught me to go along with someone long enough for them to realize their mistake, rather than being argumentive from the beginning (tenkan). Aikido has taught me to face my problems and to "enter without fear" (irimi). The concept of sensitivity, knowing when enough is enough, is not only useful when applying torque to my training partner's wrist. It also helps me to decide when to speak or act during a tense exchange. By the use of the word "spiritual" in this thread, I think they refer to how aikido improves us. What have we learned, besides how to move our hands and feet? :)

[eyrie]

The physical manifestations of aikido technique mirror the "off the mat" lessons that aikido has taught me. It's taught me to go along with someone long enough for them to realize their mistake, rather than being argumentive from the beginning (tenkan). Aikido has taught me to face my problems and to "enter without fear" (irimi). The concept of sensitivity, knowing when enough is enough, is not only useful when applying torque to my training partner's wrist. It also helps me to decide when to speak or act during a tense exchange. By the use of the word "spiritual" in this thread, I think they refer to how aikido improves us. What have we learned, besides how to move our hands and feet? :)

*claps hands and bows respectfully*

;)

[grasshopper45]

i am a virtual newbie to say the least. i have not even taken an aikido class yet, but along my spiritual journey, i have been led to consider aikido. that gives away my answer. i have been studying some taoist philosophy for some time, when i ran into a cousin of mind. he explained to me about how aikido emphasizes similar thoughts ,mainly a philosophy of peace , and harmony with nature.
i am currently reading the Art of Peace by Morihei Ueshiba, and while i have not read far, i appreciate the beauty, and the desire for a better world in it. i too see a difference in religious vs spiritual thought. i think we all follow a path , and that we should not impose our religion, or perhaps even our spirituality on others.
i am a Christian man, but see much truth, and beauty in what i have read . it is spiritual to me.
Again i have not experienced Aikido at all personally , just what i have read. i hope to change that soon. So forgive me if i am just rambling on something i know so little about. i would like to think that Aikido is a great martial art ,with application in this world, but it is grounded in some form of spirituality.

[billybob]

I answered yes.

For the moment, my spirit and my body go together. I suspect, at some future time, they may go their separate ways.

I point aikidoka to the 'chindon' of OSensei - the rowing exercise, hand shaking exercise, and shaking hands over head and flicking fingers toward earth are for spiritual cleansing.

For you Christians I reference Paul's admonition not to 'join' with prostitutes - because 'you join your spirit also'.

If aikido isn't spiritual, then one would have to conclude that 'spirit' does not exist.

Billybob.

[Don_Modesto]

I generally defer to Peter G. on such matters, and he has said he doesn't see a "spiritual component of aikido inherent in the physical techniques". However, I can't help but suspect that part of the difference between ajj and aikido technique is precisely this, consciously attempted, i.e., the transformation of physical training into a...metaphor (into synesthesia?)

I point aikidoka to the 'chindon' of OSensei

Hi, David!

CHINDON...is that anything like KATSUDON?

Yikes!

...oh! you meant CHIN-K-ON.

Never mind.

[siwilson]

Come on guys, this is getting really woolly!!!!

Kevin, when you do go for a first Aikido class, pick carefully. A lot of people in Aikido don't have any time for the...
rowing exercise, hand shaking exercise, and shaking hands over head and flicking fingers toward earth are for spiritual cleansing
...mumbo jumbo. Aikido is a martial arts and should be practiced as such. O'Sensei was a bone breaker and hospitalised many people. He killed many too. In fact that is supposed to have lead to him emphasising Irimi, as his katana blade became ineffective because of the fat on it from those he had cut down, so he started to thrust in to them instead.

If you want the mumbo jumbo, well there are many schools of Aikido that have forgotten that it is a martial art and seem to be practicing "prayer in movement", but that i snot for me.

I had a disturbing experience at a seminar a little while ago, where I did (Shomen) Irimi Nage on one guy and he got up looking flustered, saying, "What are you going? What are you doing?" I was confused as I thought I did the technique pretty well. "You're not supposed to touch me!" he said, "You're supposed to show your hand in front of my face and I fall down!" ** WHAT? ** So I did the technique even harder the second time!

Damn Aiki--fruities!!!!!!! :yuck:

Like I said, it is a martial art and should be practiced as such. If you don't want that and want to be a fruity, there are many places to go, but a Yoshinkan Dojo will not be one of them.

Si

[maikerus]

Come on guys, this is getting really woolly!!!!

<snip happens>

Damn Aiki--fruities!!!!!!! :yuck:

Like I said, it is a martial art and should be practiced as such. If you don't want that and want to be a fruity, there are many places to go, but a Yoshinkan Dojo will not be one of them.

Si

Come on Si...tell us what you really think :)

--Michael

[xuzen]

...<snip>...I had a disturbing experience at a seminar a little while ago, where I did (Shomen) Irimi Nage on one guy and he got up looking flustered, saying, "What are you going? What are you doing?" I was confused as I thought I did the technique pretty well. "You're not supposed to touch me!" he said, "You're supposed to show your hand in front of my face and I fall down!" ** WHAT? **
Si,
Just a question, was this person dressed in his pretty pretty pink hakama smelling of fresh floral scent?
So I did the technique even harder the second time!
You brute... worthy of a true YoshinOrge (TM) badge of honour. :D

Boon.

[maikerus]

Si,
Just a question, was this person dressed in his pretty pretty pink hakama smelling of fresh floral scent?

You're not going to believe this, but there is actually a magazine that I saw last week selling a "Hello Kitty" dogi. It's pink with little "Hello Kitty"'s all over it.

It was one of the dojo members birthday last week and his testing partner was threatening to buy it for him. I don't know what I'd do if they actually wore it for the test next week :freaky:

Probably fail them :disgust:

--Michael :cool:

[Paul Kerr]

He killed many too. In fact that is supposed to have lead to him emphasising Irimi, as his katana blade became ineffective because of the fat on it from those he had cut down, so he started to thrust in to them instead.


Si,
Where do you get this information from? I've never heard this particular "fact" before.

(And as to the poll question: No.)

[siwilson]

Si,
Where do you get this information from? I've never heard this particular "fact" before.

It is from the story of the Manchuria adventure, where they were attacked by bandits. You know the tale about beams of light preceding the bullets?

:freaky:

[siwilson]

Si,
Just a question, was this person dressed in his pretty pretty pink hakama smelling of fresh floral scent?

Nah, they really did stink! Err, actually that was just their Aikido!!! :D

You know the type. He started the day off in Rei Ho by walking along the line of Dan grades saying, "I'm 2nd Dan. What are you?" to make sure he was not sat to the left of a Shodan!!!! :freaky: I was waiting for him to find a Nidan and start checking grading dates!!! :D Prat! :rolleyes:

[L. Camejo]

Lol I love Si's posts. Have had similar encounters. Always dropped em harder the second time.:D

I voted No btw.

I think a human being can find spirituality in everything from a glass of water to a rock to a mountain if they look hard enough. However it is difficult to see how techniques that are basically modified Jujutsu are "inherently" spiritual. "Inherently" being the operative word.

How one approaches their art and their practice can be an entirely different thing however and one can choose to have a practice with a spiritual focus. But this does not make the techniques inherently spiritual. In the end it is up to the mind of the individual that determines the approach to Aikido.

Just a few thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

[barnibis]

As I understand it, many of the movements and postures in Aikido embody various spritual principles and ideas. As I understand it, Kanai sensei spent a lot of time studying this particular aspect of Aikido, unfortunately I never spoke with him about it when he was around, i always figured i'd check him on that later.

:(



So i said, yes because Sensei said so.


o..

[siwilson]

My late teacher's journey through Aikido and life (read as the same - Shugyo) was a spiritual one. That was personal to him and those that wished to follow the spiritual side did so as a personal path also.

I would never force spiritual teachings on anyone. That is there choice! Encourage students to read about Aikido, all the way back to it's origins in the 8th century. If they find their way includes a spiritual side, then that is their choice.

Aikido can be practiced as a purely physical activity. If fact, the problem is not those who practice Aikido purely physical, but the problem is those who practice Aikido purely spiritual!!!! :yuck: :crazy:

[Paul Kerr]

It is from the story of the Manchuria adventure, where they were attacked by bandits. You know the tale about beams of light preceding the bullets?

:freaky:

Yeah, I always that that was rubbish as well ;)

[maikerus]

Aikido can be practiced as a purely physical activity. If fact, the problem is not those who practice Aikido purely physical, but the problem is those who practice Aikido purely spiritual!!!! :yuck: :crazy:

Oh! I like that! Can I use that? :D

--Michael :cool:

[siwilson]

Oh! I like that! Can I use that? :D

--Michael :cool:

Absolutely!!!!! :D

[jk]

Si, Si...don't you know anything? After you drop the aiki-fruitie harder the second time, ya gotta choke them out or put 'em in a jujigatame! When you leave the scene, step on their groin...there's a protocol to this, you know.

Michael, I would LOVE to have a Hello Kitty dogi. Details, please.

[senshincenter]

Would not a "spirituality" be somewhat noticeable within one's social actions - one's interactions with others? Do not such interactions by default range along a spectrum of fear/love, selfishness/compassion, ignorance/wisdom, etc.? Would not a “spirituality” manifest itself as a kind of maturity regarding love over fear, compassion over selfishness, wisdom over ignorance? In other words, would not the more spiritual be less plagued by fear, less driven by selfishness, and less burdened by ignorance? If this is so, don’t those who claim that Aikido waza is inherently spiritual have to explain why the Aikido world, from federation to federation, to dojo to dojo, is so plagued by fear, so driven by selfishness, and so burdened by ignorance? If Aikido waza was inherently capable of cultivating the spirit, and if the spirit must show itself in social aspects related to love, compassion, and wisdom, why are there not more saints or sages in the Aikido ranks? Why do such ranks seemed to be as equally represented of both jerks and nice folks as any other collection of people that don’t do Aikido or anything “spiritual” at all? Why don’t we even see a sharp distinction concerning the social aspects of one’s spirit regarding long-time practitioners and newbies within the art? Alternately, if spirituality is inherent within the waza, how do we explain the one ***hole who has been training for twenty or thirty years – staying just like they were when they came in?

I vote, “no way” is the cultivation of the spirit inherent to the practice of Aikido waza. Moreover, I would say no practice has inherent spirituality to it. Such a position is more superstition than it is valid insight into our own humanity. Such a position is better known as “talismanic.” Rather, Man brings his/her own spirit to the practice or he/she risks having the practice remain impotent concerning such things.

[maikerus]

Michael, I would LOVE to have a Hello Kitty dogi. Details, please.

No...I am sorry, but I cannot let that EVIL out into the Aikido world. :freaky: :crazy: :drool: :yuck:

Besides...I have no idea where the magazine is...

--Michael :cool:

[siwilson]

Si, Si...don't you know anything? After you drop the aiki-fruitie harder the second time, ya gotta choke them out or put 'em in a jujigatame! When you leave the scene, step on their groin...there's a protocol to this, you know.

Nah, The "That's not Aikido!" and storming off is way funnier (them saying and doing - not me). :D I am sure they must be refering to themselves. :freaky: Freaks!

[L. Camejo]

Would not a "spirituality" be somewhat noticeable within one's social actions - one's interactions with others? Do not such interactions by default range along a spectrum of fear/love, selfishness/compassion, ignorance/wisdom, etc.? Would not a "spirituality" manifest itself as a kind of maturity regarding love over fear, compassion over selfishness, wisdom over ignorance? In other words, would not the more spiritual be less plagued by fear, less driven by selfishness, and less burdened by ignorance? If this is so, don't those who claim that Aikido waza is inherently spiritual have to explain why the Aikido world, from federation to federation, to dojo to dojo, is so plagued by fear, so driven by selfishness, and so burdened by ignorance? If Aikido waza was inherently capable of cultivating the spirit, and if the spirit must show itself in social aspects related to love, compassion, and wisdom, why are there not more saints or sages in the Aikido ranks? Why do such ranks seemed to be as equally represented of both jerks and nice folks as any other collection of people that don't do Aikido or anything "spiritual" at all?

I think the above puts the "spirituality being inherent in the techniques" argument in a clear and focused light.

Again, well said David.

Interesting how many Yes votes there are on the poll though. Are there any counter arguments?

LC:ai::ki:

[James Davis]

I think it can depend on how receptive we are. Take religion, for example. I know plenty of people who regularly attend church that are very nice; then there are the others. Aikido CAN teach us some things to improve ourselves. We're only limited by our imaginations in how we interpret the lessons it teaches us.

[billybob]

Hi yourself Don!

Seeing how we respond I have to credit Jun for wording his questions so cleverly!

Despite my misspelling of OSensei's Chindon, Chinkon? in my earlier post, i would clarify my answer by saying I interpreted 'inherent' to mean 'included in'. Not sure everyone thinks about the word 'spiritual' the same way I do.

If you will indulge my rambling further - a judo master explained the concept of "Ippon", (perfect score in a judo match) to me as follows. Ippon, means 'Victory', or 'point', a metaphor for 'kill', he said. A friend of the judo master was asked by his mom to kill a snake. The friend asked for the master's help, and since they had been discussing judo the master used the snake as a lesson. Master said that he knew his friend had probably killed other snakes by clubbing them to death with two or three people - and the snake would sometimes get away and be chased through the bushes until finally it was beaten to death. The friend replied that yes, this was true and it was always a great fight! The master told his friend he would demonstrate 'ippon'. He took a long board, judged distance to the snake, taking his time. He let go of the board, and as it fell toward the snake he stepped on it, accelerating its movement and pushing through at the end. The snake was flattened. The friend looked disappointed, a little crestfallen that the victory was overwhelming and kind of devoid of any fun or gloating. Ippon.

Train how you want. I respect each of you.

Billybob

[billybob]

Sorry about the double entry, but I thought Don Modesto made a word up when he wrote 'synesthesia'.

"the transformation of physical training into a...metaphor (into synesthesia?)" - Don Modesto

Anyway I looked it up at dictionary.com:
Synesthesia:
A condition in which one type of stimulation evokes the sensation of another, as when the hearing of a sound produces the visualization of a color.
A sensation felt in one part of the body as a result of stimulus applied to another, as in referred pain.
The description of one kind of sense impression by using words that normally describe another.

Interesting. Don't limit what you might experience from training.

Si Wilson said "Come on guys, this is getting really woolly!!!!"

Maybe. But there's a reason i say i don't believe in God - how can i discover what i already know for certain?