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AikiWeb System
05-20-2005, 02:45 AM
Discuss the article, "An Unjust Belief" by Paul Schweer here.

Article URL: http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/pschweer/2005_05.html

akiy
05-24-2005, 09:40 AM
Hi folks,

If you have liked reading Paul's writing in the past (and present), you may be interested in reading one of his non-aikido (but very aikido-relevant, in my opinion) pieces of writing here on the online literary magazine VerbSap:

http://www.verbsap.com/2005april/schweer.html

Very recommended.

-- Jun

Hagen Seibert
05-25-2005, 06:10 PM
Well, ahem..... whatīs this supposed to tell us about Aikido ?
(I still guess there is a relation as itīs in the Aikido columns.)

Perhaps: Aikido as martial art, the wretched vessel, which is not really fit for the rough sea of self defence ??? The local dojo sensei, in good belief of his teachings ??? Guilty that his students got messed up ???

I would be happy to hear some different interpretations, as i do not really sympathize with this one.

Jeanne Shepard
05-25-2005, 07:30 PM
I loved it.

A guy going into a women's world with an open, beginner's mind.

Just like what I went through when I started Aikido and learning a martial art. Had to have the same attitude to get through all the foreign stuff I'd never encountered before.

That's what i got from it.

Jeanne

stuartjvnorton
05-25-2005, 08:22 PM
Yeah, I tend to agree with Jeanne.
It sounded like someone starting Aikido.

I liked it.
Very nice, Paul. :-)

Lorien Lowe
05-25-2005, 09:52 PM
I first encountered this parable in a Carl Sagan book; iirc, there was an actual case in which this happened. The ship that sank was carrying a load of Irish immigrants to the new world; the ship's owner was convicted of murder because, according to the judge, he had no right to believe that the ship was safe based on the evidence.

Because of the Sagan association, I tend to think of it wrt skepticism and wrt the applications of skepticism to aikido. Though generally consider myself a skeptic, I have found that my technique tends to work better if I suspend my disbelief at the door of the dojo. Is that justifiable or unjustifiable? I don't know - I'm still working on it after five years.

-LK

Paul Schweer
05-26-2005, 04:56 PM
... I have found that my technique tends to work better if I suspend my disbelief at the door of the dojo.


Could you talk some about that?

Paul Schweer

Jeanne Shepard
05-26-2005, 07:56 PM
Yeah.

For instance, does it mean having no preconceptions or assumptions?

Jeanne

Jeanne Shepard
05-26-2005, 10:31 PM
There is some confusion here because the article that supposedly is being discussed is the one that is currently on the May essay page. But the link goes to a different one, about a man in a ballet class!

What an interesting mixup...

Jeanne

Lan Powers
05-26-2005, 11:31 PM
ummm, ballet class? The link sent me to the ship and the story being described....(I tend to think it is an interesting moral question, but not too well placed regarding my aikido perceptions)
Where do we get the ballet tale?
Lan

Janet Rosen
05-27-2005, 12:44 AM
This is the discussion site for the May column, as linked in the first message, as always.
Jun put in a posting with a link to a separate article written by Paul and published elsewhere.

Nick P.
05-27-2005, 08:19 AM
Could you talk some about that?

Paul Schweer

Wow. Goosebumps. For a moment I thought I was being quoted by Lorien.

If I may, my take is that if I do not believe the technique will work, it usually tends to work better than if I believe it will work. Perhaps it is linked to the whole idea of "letting go".

A "do not care about the outcome, or believe the technique will work, just let it go and see what happens" - kind of state.

gregstec
05-27-2005, 11:08 AM
I think the point of the article is centric to Conscience. Paul asks in the last sentence: "How about…not found out." As we all know, we can be held accountable for our actions; which are manifested in the material dimension. However, what holds us accountable for our beliefs in the non-material dimension? How about…Conscience! Now, what does ‘Conscience' has to do with Aikido? everything -- just look to the Mirror for the answer. :triangle: :circle: :square:

Greg Steckel

Hagen Seibert
05-27-2005, 05:49 PM
Wow. Goosebumps. For a moment I thought I was being quoted by Lorien.

If I may, my take is that if I do not believe the technique will work, it usually tends to work better than if I believe it will work. Perhaps it is linked to the whole idea of "letting go".

A "do not care about the outcome, or believe the technique will work, just let it go and see what happens" - kind of state.

My take would be just the other way:
If you are not completely convinced of what you are doing, if will tend to fail. Best example: yonkyo. If you have any doubt about getting the right point, it will rather not work.

Although, I would agree to saying that one should not carry preconceptions on how to do a technique, instead adapting it to the situation. Maybe thatīs what you meant, Nick ?

Hagen Seibert
05-27-2005, 05:54 PM
Could you talk some about that?

Paul Schweer

Maybe YOU could give us some word how this "Unjust Belief" is related to AIKIDO ? Or isnīt it ?

Janet Rosen
05-27-2005, 07:29 PM
Maybe YOU could give us some word how this "Unjust Belief" is related to AIKIDO ? Or isnīt it ?
I'm not Paul (just double-checked, nope, I'm not)...but to me the issue of intent vs. action is universal.
Within the aikido world, some people have posited that part of what distinguishes aikido from aikijutsu is intent (I'm not taking a position, merely pointing out that this position exists).
Then there is intent as in the intent of our attacks: are they meant to truly hurt our training partners, or to provide a certain energy, or some other intent?

Paul Schweer
05-28-2005, 08:34 AM
Maybe YOU could give us some word how this "Unjust Belief" is related to AIKIDO ? Or isnīt it ?

The importance and/or appropriateness of objective critical evaluation; the challenges of critique lacking results from practical application; the measure and substance of accountability for opinions unlikely to be tested; the attempt to shout down an idea's presentation -- none of that sounds familiar to you?

Paul Schweer

L. Camejo
05-28-2005, 09:08 AM
This sounds like something being discussed on the "Culture of Mediocrity" thread.

Or is it?

Of course you can just circumvent the ship problem by flying.:D

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Lorien Lowe
05-28-2005, 07:14 PM
A long time ago, in a dojo a few blocks away...

Sensei: 'Extend your arms. Think about energy flowing down your arms from your center.'
Newbie: 'Think about *what*?!'
Sensei: 'Energy. Think about energy.'
Newbie: 'Uhh...'
Newbie: (thinking to self) 'what the hell is he talking about?! There's no such thing as energy that can be channeled like that by a human.'
Sensei: 'project!'
Newbie (thinking to self) 'ok, well, maybe if I just *imagine* there were some sort of energy...'
Newbie: 'Hey! it works!'

That's what I mean by 'suspending disbelief.' I still try to find natural explanations for things like 'ki' (or whatever it is - subconscious body control?) outside of the dojo, but while I'm training I try to accept what works, and not worry too much if it makes no real sense at all. Until class is over.

-LK

David Yap
05-28-2005, 09:43 PM
A long time ago, in a dojo a few blocks away...

Sensei: 'Extend your arms. Think about energy flowing down your arms from your center.'
Newbie: 'Think about *what*?!'
Sensei: 'Energy. Think about energy.'
Newbie: 'Uhh...'
Newbie: (thinking to self) 'what the hell is he talking about?! There's no such thing as energy that can be channeled like that by a human.'
Sensei: 'project!'
Newbie (thinking to self) 'ok, well, maybe if I just *imagine* there were some sort of energy...'
Newbie: 'Hey! it works!'
-LK

Similar to Xinyi Quan (mind boxing) or what KT's mind & body coordination :p

David Y :rolleyes:

Hagen Seibert
06-02-2005, 12:09 PM
The importance and/or appropriateness of objective critical evaluation; the challenges of critique lacking results from practical application; the measure and substance of accountability for opinions unlikely to be tested; the attempt to shout down an idea's presentation -- none of that sounds familiar to you?

Paul Schweer

nope - at least not in applied martial art.
So Iīll take your column for more or less general philosophics.
(As this was my question, thanks a lot for your effort of clarifying.)
Hagen

Paul Schweer
06-02-2005, 03:11 PM
nope

Really.

Those themes run through many aikido discussions. At least the ones I overhear.

Paul Schweer

Hagen Seibert
06-02-2005, 03:55 PM
Alas ... maybe I donīt get your clues because I focused on APPLIED martial art. Please do not fell argued with. regards
Hagen

Paul Schweer
06-03-2005, 06:46 AM
... I focused on APPLIED martial art.

Are you suggesting that there is no relationship between themes prevalent in discussion and successful practical application?

Paul Schweer