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kokyu
05-19-2005, 08:01 AM
Some years ago, my Sensei was performing irimi nage (from shomeunchi) on me. Halfway through the movement, he suddenly stopped and asked -- did you feel anything? It then dawned on me (I'm not very alert :) ) that he had moved me around without my realizing it -- and he was about to enter and throw me!

More recently, I had an opportunity to train at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. One of the senior practitioners (25plus years) was praising a particular sensei he had attacked. He said that attacking this sensei was like falling through a trap door -- before you knew it, you were on the floor -- in other words, he had not felt anything prior to falling down…

I was wondering:
(1) Is this a skill level that some people out there are trying to achieve?
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)
(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?

batemanb
05-19-2005, 08:08 AM
In answer to your questions.

1. Definately something I am working towards.

2. It requires an honest attack from uke, therefore probably does require an experienced uke to a degree, at least someone confident in their ukemi to give an honest attack.

3. It's a combination of all the things that we work on when practicing aikido techniqus, ma ai, irimi, timing, balance and movement.

Best regards

Bryan

Marxama
05-19-2005, 11:32 AM
As for question two: After having trained for two-three months (with no prior MA-training), I went to my first seminar, where Shishiya-sensei did an ikkyo-ura from ai-hanmi katatedori on me. Felt nothing at all, but I ran around him until I was on the floor. Totally amazing :)

kironin
05-19-2005, 12:06 PM
(1) Is this a skill level that some people out there are trying to achieve?

yes.

(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)

no.

(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?

what do you mean ?

it definitely has something to do with understanding how to capture and lead a person's mind and understanding what details in waza make that happen is certainly important.

Pauliina Lievonen
05-19-2005, 01:06 PM
Reading the beginning of the thread, I was going to answer: 1. yep. 2. nope. 3. what do you mean?

then I got to Craig's answer... :)

kvaak
Pauliina
who was brought up by the aikido-l, or was it just a coincidence?

Stefan Stenudd
05-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Thanks, Soon-Kiang Phang, for this thread! I love it.
I think this experience is fundamental in what aikido shuld be. :ai: :ki: , the joining of tori's and uke's ki, would lead to it.

So, yes I focus on it.

As for the second question, I agree with Batemanb. Uke needs to be confident enough to do an honest attack, which does not mean hard, but with a clear intention.
Beginners can do that, too, of course. Some advanced cannot.

The third question has been splendidly answered by Craig.
Myself, I try to be honest as tori, too: Wanting to accomplish this smooth joining, not for defeating uke, but for the very joining. When I have other ambitions, I find that my technique gets flawed.

An old friend of mine told me how he experienced Nakazono sensei's techinque: He felt that he was doing it on himself, although he was the uke. That's a nice ideal, I think.

Bronson
05-19-2005, 02:41 PM
See Craig's post.

My take on #2: I experienced this not feeling anything much more when I had less experience. Now that I have some idea what's going on I can follow along better and can pay attention to the feeling as opposed to focusing on not dying during the fall :D

Bronson

maikerus
05-19-2005, 06:28 PM
I was wondering:
(1) Is this a skill level that some people out there are trying to achieve?
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)
(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?

1) Excellent question. This is definately something I am trying to achieve and am trying to get everyone I teach to understand as one of the goals in our execuction of a technique.

When it was first described to me (or perhaps when I first remembered the words) it was likened to uke being continuously, but not consciously dependent upon shite for their balance so that they were continuously falling at a rate controlled by shite with no way to regain their own balance.

2) I would say *ideally* not. In my experience it is easier when uke has a good, honest, committed attack, however I believe that shite's role in this whole technique thing includes helping uke to become unbalanced, no matter if their attack is strong or not.

3) The fundamental principles of Aikido can be found within every technique, so from that respect everything we do on the mat should help lead us to this goal.

My few yen...

--Michael

kokyu
05-20-2005, 07:15 AM
(3) Does it have something to do with the waza itself?

what do you mean ?

it definitely has something to do with understanding how to capture and lead a person's mind and understanding what details in waza make that happen is certainly important.

Craig, I completely agree with you that it depends on the ability to lead a person's mind. But, I meant to ask if the ease with which one can achieve this level of skill depends on the technique itself.

My initial example was based on shomenuchi iriminage. I've also experienced something similar with shihonage - where nage spun me around very smoothly and brought me down without my feeling the typical wrench on the shoulder... I'm still in wonder when I remember that experience :)

These two examples are basically throwing techniques. I was wondering if it's possible to bring uke down without him feeling anything when doing something like ikkyo :rolleyes:

Dazzler
05-20-2005, 07:26 AM
In answer to your questions.

1. Definately something I am working towards.

2. It requires an honest attack from uke, therefore probably does require an experienced uke to a degree, at least someone confident in their ukemi to give an honest attack.

3. It's a combination of all the things that we work on when practicing aikido techniqus, ma ai, irimi, timing, balance and movement.

Best regards

Bryan

Not for the first time I agree with Brian.

This is something I've experience on many occasions with Pierre Chassange. all the elements of his aikido seem to be so perfectly proportioned that his work is seemingly effortless.

In some ways this harmony of elements is what I see a ki being manifested.

With other senior instructors I've often felt they they were incredibly powerful but few have made the whole thing seem so effortless.

I can certainly relate to the trap door analogy.. it almost feels as if I could be knocked over with a feather! :o

Cheers

D

Stefan Stenudd
05-20-2005, 05:50 PM
I was wondering if it's possible to bring uke down without him feeling anything when doing something like ikkyo :rolleyes:
Absolutely! If it cannot be done with ikkyo, it just cannot be done. It is a question of attitude in tori, not a question of technique. If tori sincerely and wholeheartedly joins with uke's intention, then there is this feeling of no conflict/nothing. Accept the attack wholeheartedly, and ikkyo will be this joyous.

bryce_montgomery
06-05-2005, 07:31 PM
Absolutely! If it cannot be done with ikkyo, it just cannot be done. It is a question of attitude in tori, not a question of technique. If tori sincerely and wholeheartedly joins with uke's intention, then there is this feeling of no conflict/nothing. Accept the attack wholeheartedly, and ikkyo will be this joyous.

Splendidly put!

Thank you Stefan. I agree whole-heartedly.

Bryce

Charles Hill
06-05-2005, 11:36 PM
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience?

I think the answer is yes, but in different terms than others have posted here. Many beginners( and a large number of more advanced people) don`t seem to have much kinesthetic sense. They feel with their eyes, ie, if they can`t see the hand on them, they can`t feel it. Also, the closer one touches a partner`s center, the more many seem not able to feel it. I have off balanced people several times with a hand on the lower back/hip in iriminage, and they have told me that I threw them without touching them. I think that as one progresses, the person can start to feel that they are being touched, that there is no magic involved.

Charles

Sonja2012
06-06-2005, 12:57 AM
(2) Does it require uke to have some level of experience? (I assume nage knows the waza quite well)


I would have said "yes" to this question, if I hadn´t had the following experience:

Quite a while back, when I was still trying to work out breakfalls and was a bit afraid of them, sensei got asked a question about koshi nage. He answered and grabbed me to demonstrate what he meant. I attacked ryote tori and all of a sudden - without any fear, pain or anything - I found myself lying on the floor. He had thrown me into a breakfall and I hadn´t seen it coming the slightest bit. :eek: It was a very cool experience! :) Even though I had some ukemi skills, I certainly didn´t have the breakfall skills, yet the technique was executed just as well as with any of the higher graded ukes.

So now, I am not so sure about the answer to this question.

eyrie
06-06-2005, 02:01 AM
Yes. No. Yes.

I have thrown jujitsuka like this without touching them. Admittedly his ukemi was above par, but he had no idea of the waza. There is a similar waza in jujitsu called hachi-mawashi, but nothing like the level of sophistication of a correctly executed irimi-nage.

The look on his face was priceless when he got up off the mat...followed by the "how did you do that?" :D

Apparently it felt like his feet were being pulled out from under him as he was momentarily suspended in mid-air, horizontal to the ground.

kokyu
06-08-2005, 10:28 AM
I think the answer is yes, but in different terms than others have posted here. Many beginners( and a large number of more advanced people) don`t seem to have much kinesthetic sense. They feel with their eyes, ie, if they can`t see the hand on them, they can`t feel it. Also, the closer one touches a partner`s center, the more many seem not able to feel it. I have off balanced people several times with a hand on the lower back/hip in iriminage, and they have told me that I threw them without touching them. I think that as one progresses, the person can start to feel that they are being touched, that there is no magic involved.

Charles

That's very interesting. I never thought of it that way. I seem to have forgotten the importance of connecting with uke's center. Thanks for the reminder.

Could you please share with us (in detail) how you off-balance people with a hand on the lower back/hip? Also, any advice for connecting with uke's center would be greatly appreciated. :D

Stefan Stenudd
06-08-2005, 11:45 AM
Also, any advice for connecting with uke's center would be greatly appreciated. :DOh, that's not easy. No good method immediately comes to mind.

A good start might be in aikiken. Face uke in chudan kamae, tips of the both bokken touching slightly (or at a short distance, as Nishio sensei prefered to do it). This is center connecting to center. When uke initiates an attacking move from that position, tori reacts, and that's good training of connecting with uke's center, IMHO.

Another good exercise is morotedori (katate ryotedori), because in this attack uke is naturally very centered. It's difficult for tori to do anything without first connecting with uke's center, and sort of bring the aikido technique out from there.