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Michael Neal
05-18-2005, 08:28 AM
It has been almost 2 years since I have done any Aikido but in Judo last night I was practicing with a new student with experience in Aiki ju jitsu.

He asked me to do some strikes at him, he was trying to do Jujitsu techniques on me but could not get them to work. I asked him to do the same to me and I practically threw him across the room onto his face with Ikkyo and then planted him on his back with kotegashi.

I was more shocked than he was.

DarkShodan
05-18-2005, 10:11 AM
Of course Aikido works!

To quote Ikeda Sensei, "Aikido works. Maybe your aikido not work, but aikido works."

Amir Krause
05-18-2005, 10:21 AM
Aikido is not a person, it can not work or not work.

The success of applying Aikido depends on each situation and particularly on the participant trying to apply Aikido.


Amir

Michael Neal
05-18-2005, 10:44 AM
Just to be clear I did not actually throw him on his face, my original post sounds a bit violent :) it was all in good fun.

James Davis
05-18-2005, 11:42 AM
After playing paintball with some friends, I was riding on the tailgate of my friend's pickup truck. When he drove through a little mud, he momentarily lost traction. He gave the engine more gas, and the truck surged forward after regaining traction. The truck's bedliner was very smooth, so I didn't move quite as fast as the truck did. :rolleyes: I knew that I was going to slip off, so I threw my stuff into the lap of the guy sitting next to me. Thankfully, the truck only got up to a little over five miles an hour. I dropped into a backward ukemi roll and ran to catch up to them. The look on my friend's face when I sat back down was pretty comical. :hypno: Often it's in ways that surprise us, but aikido definitely works!! :D

MatthewJones
05-18-2005, 11:44 AM
Of course Aikido works!

To quote Ikeda Sensei, "Aikido works. Maybe your aikido not work, but aikido works."

"Easy when you know how, neh?"

Good times!

It sounds to me that you are a much better martial artist than this other fellow. You might have used a aikido technique, but that is irrelevant. If your life is being threatened does it matter which technique, aikido or otherwise, you use? Your training in Aikido has allowed you to become a strong martial artist, take that in and enjoy it, give credit to yourself. Also his weaknesses are not examples of the weakness of Aiki-jujutsu but instead show the weakness of his martial ability.

xuzen
05-18-2005, 11:25 PM
It has been almost 2 years since I have done any Aikido but in Judo last night I was practicing with a new student with experience in Aiki ju jitsu.

He asked me to do some strikes at him, he was trying to do Jujitsu techniques on me but could not get them to work. I asked him to do the same to me and I practically threw him across the room onto his face with Ikkyo and then planted him on his back with kotegashi.

I was more shocked than he was.

You've come back full circle, Mike. If you catch what I mean.

<YODA SPEAK (TM)>...
To the light side of the force, welcome back you shall

:D :D :D

Boon.

Michael Neal
05-19-2005, 09:28 AM
To the light side of the force, welcome back you shall

unfortunately, according to George Lucas I have gone to the dark side since I support George W. Bush, so I am now Darth Michael, all hope is lost.

Kevin Leavitt
05-19-2005, 04:45 PM
Just to be clear I did not actually throw him on his face, my original post sounds a bit violent :) it was all in good fun.

Come one Michael, you know you have an evil streak and loved every minute of it.

I have use aikido techs all the time in BJJ (when I am allowed to!) Kotegaeshi is one of my favorites. Also have a mean omaplata from the guard with sankyo.

aikigirl10
05-19-2005, 06:33 PM
cool story michael .

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 06:37 PM
lol kevin! I would LOVE to see a vid of that. Omaplata + gaurd + sankyo = pain

Bronson
05-20-2005, 03:26 AM
I am now Darth Michael

Does that make you a sith dan? :D :D

Bronson

PeterR
05-20-2005, 03:36 AM
Oh God - shoot one of us -please.

maikerus
05-20-2005, 03:47 AM
I vote for shooting Bronson :D :cool:

Bronson
05-20-2005, 05:16 AM
I vote for shooting Bronson :D :cool:

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress. :D :D

Bronson

Michael Neal
05-20-2005, 09:11 AM
Come one Michael, you know you have an evil streak and loved every minute of it.

thats right I am Darth Michael after all

Does that make you a sith dan?

I guess I now have to find a good black gi

CNYMike
05-21-2005, 12:11 AM
unfortunately, according to George Lucas I have gone to the dark side since I support George W. Bush, so I am now Darth Michael, all hope is lost.

:crazy: :hypno: :crazy: :hypno:


I voted for GW too, this time, but when I saw the article on that in USA Today and I almost went through the roof. The same liberals who may be praising Mr. Lucas for taking a stand against the Iraq war were blasting him for being a "racist" in Episode 1. (No such comments about Ep 2 -- I guess they were in a bit of a slump.) Never mind the fact that he drew up the general outline for Darth Vader's backstory something like 25 years ago. At least. Osama, GW, and Saddamm Hussein were not even on the map then.

I feel like the stereotypical parent who says, "You are going to enjoy yourself if I have to break every bone in your body:" Go, watch them movie, enjoy for what it is -- a great adventure that took place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Let Michael Moore cover the politics; go to Star Wars for fun.

Or Else.

CNYMike
05-21-2005, 12:13 AM
It has been almost 2 years since I have done any Aikido but in Judo last night I was practicing with a new student with experience in Aiki ju jitsu.

He asked me to do some strikes at him, he was trying to do Jujitsu techniques on me but could not get them to work. I asked him to do the same to me and I practically threw him across the room onto his face with Ikkyo and then planted him on his back with kotegashi.

I was more shocked than he was.

Who are you, and what have you done with the real Michael Neal? :p :D It's not that shocking; things stay in your muscle memory for a long time. I havne't trained in Wing Chun since 1999 or thereabouts, but I retain enough to spit out a trap when Guro Andy is using me as uke. No big deal. You may now resume hating Aikido, confident in the knowledge this means absolutely nothing. :D

CNYMike
05-21-2005, 12:19 AM
Oh God - shoot one of us -please.

Eh, kill 'em all -- let God sort 'em out. :D

Michael Neal
05-23-2005, 08:36 AM
I don't hate Aikido, I just think it needs some refinement in the area of training methods. Mostly more randori.

Matt Molloy
05-23-2005, 09:28 AM
I don't hate Aikido, I just think it needs some refinement in the area of training methods. Mostly more randori.

*Sneaks up and pins "Shodothug" badge on Mr Neal.*

CNYMike
05-23-2005, 12:17 PM
I don't hate Aikido, I just think it needs some refinement in the area of training methods. Mostly more randori.

Ok. If you say so. I believe you. ;)

It's still just a question of something still in your muscle memory being "tripped." Don't worry about it.

MitchMZ
05-23-2005, 12:32 PM
I really think one of the only things separating Aikido from some other arts is the method of training.

Some of us novices tried to do randori a few months ago at an open Sunday class. It didn't turn out too well. I reverted to Judo, Wrestling and Jujutsu and did not do a very good job. Needless to say I got busted in the lip by a strike someone threw and there was blood everywhere.

As I told myself, I don't need to do randori at this stage because if thats all I did I wouldn't be learning how to do proper technique...I'd just be reinforcing my old ways that rely on too much power. That is why soft training is important for some people. Now for people with no other martial arts experience...I would say more randori may be better. My sensei was also very mad at us! :D

Michael Neal
05-23-2005, 01:10 PM
but good Judo emphasizes technique over power as well, you can do randori and focus on technique, you just have to put your ego aside.

Kevin Leavitt
05-23-2005, 02:46 PM
In the BJJ i am studying, we will roll very slow for 3/4 of the class, and then spend approximately 15 to 20 minutes in "randori" (rolling). I think it is easier to do in BJJ and Judo because of the nature of the skills you are training. Much harder to do with aikido and still be accomplishing the goals of aikido. Those are my experiences.

I think you do have to be very cautious not to reinforce bad habits in aikido. The dynamic is slightly different from judo or bjj, IMHO.

Michael Neal
05-24-2005, 01:07 PM
Kevin, but Aikido already has randori. All I am advocating is more of it. Maybe 15 minutes at the end of each class, it can be as simple as one on one light randori where uke throws random strikes and Nage has to react with technique. the technique may be sloppy at times but the only way to make it better is more practice under these kind of conditions.

Is just my point of view, I am pretty sure that most Aikido instructors already have a way of teaching and will not change on my account. I suppose that I should seek out a Tomiki school if I am ever interested in taking up Aikido again, unfortunatley there are none around.

Michael Neal
05-24-2005, 01:17 PM
The thing is that these techniques I used on the Judo student were done after asking him to attack me with an overhead strike and a punch to the stomach, I knew what was coming, I doubt I would have had as much success if it were more like randori.

If I could pull them off in randori then I would be alot more confident in those skills. That is the point of randori, to build confidence in your techniques against non compliant people.

Kevin Leavitt
05-24-2005, 01:35 PM
Michael,

Of course aikido has randori. Certainly I appreciate your view point. Keep in mind also that I a pro randori for my own training, but certainly appreciate now at this stage of my life why it seems to be limited somewhat in aikido.

If I were an instructor working with students I just spent an hour trying to "undo" years of "forcing" and "rigid stress" only to once again end class putting it back in.

I think in aikido you have to slowly build up to randori sort of like (i hate this term, but will use it anyway) "dancing" slowly until you have good posture/control, then you increase the pace until you can sustain that posture and control at faster and faster speeds.

I know in Aikido of Northern VA Jimmy encourages agressive and forceful technique when running a normal class. I can tell you that with the Yudansha I hold nothing back on them within the confines of the principle or technique that we are working on. I walk the line between taking it back from them and will if they are sloppy. Jimmy never had a problem with that as long as you had good technique and posture etc. He'd slow you down only if you were doing it wrong.

Just about every class, prior to starting that Min was around or some of the other Yudansha, we'd work on freestyle randori, I was never told to stop doing that. Same up at Takoma Park. You just had to be responsble and have the right context. It was never "grappling" though, nor should it degrade to the point of formless struggle.

Okay, back from my digression....

I think, however, that the average beginner, of which most of our classes composed say 70% of simply had no good martial basis for performing randori or freestyle aikido, therefore, we tended not to encourage it since it would be pointless and lost on them. (Maybe Jimmy or someone else will correct me if I made a wrong assumption!)

Kevin Leavitt
05-24-2005, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=
If I could pull them off in randori then I would be alot more confident in those skills. That is the point of randori, to build confidence in your techniques against non compliant people.[/QUOTE]

I know exactly how you feel. I think most aikidoka probably feel this way. Aikido is definitly a tricky bird to figure out!

Bob Galeone used to tell me that you weren't going to do a technique on someone that did not want you to do it. This happens alot in irimi nage with beginners. After they have you break their balance they will start trying to circumvent the technique by bending forward at the waist. It is frustrating if you have experience because you know that they set themselves up for all kinds of other nasty stuff that you are not allowed to do within the parameters of iriminage such as strikes to back of the head, kicks and shoves etc.

So I think you have to narrowly define "non compliant" somewhat, which Michael, I think you certainly understand. (not meaning to patronize you in anyway).

Maybe I am wrong, but if you emphasized "non-compliance" or "reality" or combat based in the art you just went from "DO" which is really about teaching the "way" to "SU" which is effectiveness. Therefore, you would have Aikijutsu.

I agree, there is certainly validity in both the DO and the SU. How you strike a balance in AIkido I do not know. For myself, I have sought out two avenues, one involving traditional aikido study, the other hardcore MMA training with my Army units.

Michael Neal
05-24-2005, 02:18 PM
I agree, but the problem I had was a handful of people that went completely counter to that and constantly whined when you tried to apply things aggressively, and they were not all from the 70% beginner pool as you mentioned above. For example: There was an Ikkyu who could not take a breakfall from seionage and another similar rank who constantly corrected me to apply my technique in an unrealistic manner. However, as I remember these students did tranfer from other schools and I will not blame their training in any way on ANV.

I know Jim was often amused and took interest whenever someone did something like a Judo throw or was aggressive in application, he never discouraged it so long (as you said above) it was done with control and good form. He was completely open minded in my view. He would laugh when two students would start wrestling on the mat before or after class. I have never blamed my outlook on Aikido on Jim or ANV in general, I believe the class was polluted by too many people who wanted to be comfortable when they practiced a martial art and did not want to push their limits, again not the fault of the instruction, Jim was always trying to break that attitude.

When I started Judo I came the realization quick that many of these people would not last very long in a Judo class and that Judo in general filtered out this kind of attitude because of the constant randori. There were and still are many great people at ANV but I felt unchallenged alot when practicing with the people who were not serious about their training.

I was also annoyed at having to always be super careful because some were afraid to take a breakfall from a simple shoulder or hip throw. The way I would remedy that is making the abilty to take a relatively hard breakfall from koshinage a requiremnt for promtion to 4th kyu or above. There is no excuse in my view to be 4th kyu or above and to be afraid of breakfalls.

But I loved ANV despite of those things, but unfortunately I think I probably have pissed off too many people there with my internet ramblings and it would be sort of akward to show up there.

Ron Tisdale
05-24-2005, 02:32 PM
Why would you want someone afraid to take such a throw to take one?

Did you let your partner know in advance what YOUR objectives were BEFORE throwing them in ways they weren't used to?

Why would you be throwing a person with a judo throw in an aikido class *in regular training*, outside of randori?

Judo has a 3 step practice, kuzushi, tsukuri, kake...why didn't you do the balance break and the fitting in without the throw to let people know about openings rather than throw people in ways they weren't compfortable with?

No offense, these are just some of the questions that came to mind when reading your last post. A lot of people wouldn't last very long in some judo classes...a lot of people wouldn't last very long in the shotokan dojo I trained in in Kenya...so what? That art isn't for them maybe...

Best,
Ron (not that I can't and don't sometimes feel your frustration)

Michael Neal
05-24-2005, 02:47 PM
Did you let your partner know in advance what YOUR objectives were BEFORE throwing them in ways they weren't used to?

It was mostly during freestlye practice before or after class but also invloved simple koshinage throws during Aikido pratice. One unfortunate incident I can remember was during in class koshinage practice, I threw a 4th kyu with koshinage (very carefully I might add) and they ended up breaking or spraining their wrist. I felt terrible but I did nothing wrong, they should have been able to take that fall.

Why would you be throwing a person with a judo throw in an aikido class *in regular training*, outside of randori?

Most Judo throws as far as I can tell are in Aikido as well, they just aren't practiced as much. Seionage is included in the koshinage repetoire as far as I know. It should not matter anyway when practicing with an Ikkyu, they should be able to take the fall, period. I did not all of the sudden start throwing people unexpectedly with Judo throws, it was only when people wanted to get rough and mix it up a little, they would put me in a headlock (a non Aikido technique) and i would respond with say, tai otoshi for example.

Judo has a 3 step practice, kuzushi, tsukuri, kake...why didn't you do the balance break and the fitting in without the throw to let people know about openings rather than throw people in ways they weren't compfortable with?

It wasn't just me doing Judo on them, I only did that with higher ranks, it was normal Aikido that was frustrating for the most part.

Michael Neal
05-24-2005, 02:56 PM
But I can understand some of the fear of breakfalls, those mats were hard as hell.

Kevin Leavitt
05-24-2005, 03:22 PM
Michael,

I don't think you'd have any problem at the dojo to be quite honest (although I am not around there these days!). I think most people like Jimmy can appreciate your candor and honesty. Certainly it speaks highly of you to want to push yourself and train hard. I think being critical is okay, you should be critical and question. Where you cross the line is being disrepectful, and I never have seen you be disrespectful. I believe there is a big difference from being critical and disagreeing with being disrespectful.

I don't think anyone who is serious about martial arts and training has not had your thoughts. I certainly have and share many of them.

Aikido certainly leaves room for the warm and fuzzy crowd and whiners. You know they are actually everywhere. I had them when I was in Basic training, OCS, Airborne School, and Ranger School. I have seen them in SF and Ranger Battalion....they are everywhere. Define it as mediocrity. Statistically life is a bell curve.

I know where you are coming from, and certainly I respect you wanting to train with people that want to train hard. There is nothing like hanging out with a bunch of guys that train till they puke and the weak not need apply.

That said, I have also found that it is important to seek out the "nuggets" that are out there too and sometimes they show up in the darnest places.

If ANV or AIkido in general is not for you...does not validate or invalidate it....simply means it doesn't meet your objectives...no need to appologize.

I'm going to make an assumption (sorry). I think one reason you come back here, as well as I do...is that you find that aikido people tend to be somewhat more intellectually or philosophically oriented as martial artist and the mental "sparring" or randori that you get is as important to development as a martial artist as the physical. To me, this is one of the greatest benefits of aikido...in developing your mind and connecting it to your body.

If that is ALL you get out of aikido, sans learning techniques, I would say it is a worthwile pursuit!

Ron Tisdale
05-24-2005, 03:32 PM
Thanks for the response Michael. Yeah, sounds like you needed to find a home more suited to your needs. Hey, as a not active enough 43 year old wannabe, you'd probably be too much for me too! :)

Best,
Ron

PeterR
05-24-2005, 07:50 PM
But I can understand some of the fear of breakfalls, those mats were hard as hell.
Well if its the place I remember they weren't even Judo mats. Not to sure I would want to do Judo or Shodokan randori on them.

CNYMike
05-25-2005, 12:11 AM
.... I don't need to do randori at this stage because if thats all I did I wouldn't be learning how to do proper technique...I'd just be reinforcing my old ways that rely on too much power .....

Yes, your goal would be to apply Aikido's principles to that situation, so you'd have to be on your way to having them internalized so as you paly with them and not the other things in your aresenal. Doing that without your sensei finding out and getting mad at you is your problem.

(Personally I have a soft spot in my heart for "traditional" Aikido because that's what I'm back into, but I'm mellow.)

CNYMike
05-25-2005, 12:14 AM
I think you do have to be very cautious not to reinforce bad habits in aikido. The dynamic is slightly different from judo or bjj, IMHO.

By sheer coincidence, my Aikido teacher has been mentioning the differing theoretical underpinnings of Aikido and Judo techniques. Some things may look similar, but they are not. So shifting from one structure to another when you don't have both down is probably a bad idea.

CNYMike
05-25-2005, 12:25 AM
Kevin, but Aikido already has randori. All I am advocating is more of it. Maybe 15 minutes at the end of each class .....

The first thought that popped into my head was the logisitics of finding the time in the dojo I go to. After half an hour warm up, we do techniques for the hour. And when there's a good crowd and sensei floats from group to group, we can end up doing the same thing for 25 minutes. Cramming in 15 minute of randori would be difficult to say the least.

I've seen upper ranking people do randori on pretests, but I don't know how long it takes to get up to that stage.

PeterR
05-25-2005, 12:33 AM
I think its a fallacy that doing randori will lock your technique into muscling. The key is balance between randori (at different levels of resistance) and kata. In randori you don't always go full out (I'm going to make you eat mat big boy) but you experiment with degrees of softness and power, techniques which work well for you mixed in with techniques that just aren't there yet and the timing for both.

Randori isn't about win or loose its to figure out how to get techniques to work in a chaotic resistive setting not to mention that rush when you get it to work.

CNYMike
05-25-2005, 12:56 AM
Most Judo throws as far as I can tell are in Aikido as well, they just aren't practiced as much. Seionage is included in the koshinage repetoire as far as I know ....

It may not be exactly the same, though, as the theoreitcal underpinnings of the techniques are slightly different. And I saw a higher ranking student have trouble getting the hang of the Koshi Nage breakfall, so it's not the easiest thing to learn. If Seionage is harder than koshi nage on top of that, then that would not be a pleasant experience for someone on the receiving end.

You have to take the abilities and safety of your partners into account. If they can handle it and consent to doing it, fine. Otherwise, I think you should pull back.

Bronson
05-25-2005, 02:25 AM
...you can do randori and focus on technique, you just have to put your ego aside.

the problem I had was a handful of people that went completely counter to that and constantly whined when you tried to apply things aggressively, and they were not all from the 70% beginner pool as you mentioned above. For example: There was an Ikkyu who could not take a breakfall from seionage and another similar rank who constantly corrected me to apply my technique in an unrealistic manner.

You can also do techniques on those who don't want to go full out...you just have to put your ego aside.

Bronson

Michael Neal
05-25-2005, 08:15 AM
Thanks for the response Michael. Yeah, sounds like you needed to find a home more suited to your needs. Hey, as a not active enough 43 year old wannabe, you'd probably be too much for me too

I don't know if I am too much for you, I just like to practice hard. If it is any indication to you of how I practice, even the lower belts in judo tend to gravitate away from me when it come time for randori or even throwing practice.

The first thought that popped into my head was the logisitics of finding the time in the dojo I go to. After half an hour warm up, we do techniques for the hour. And when there's a good crowd and sensei floats from group to group, we can end up doing the same thing for 25 minutes. Cramming in 15 minute of randori would be difficult to say the least.

I've seen upper ranking people do randori on pretests, but I don't know how long it takes to get up to that stage.

Well my response to that is take some time from training techniques and do more randori.

It may not be exactly the same, though, as the theoreitcal underpinnings of the techniques are slightly different. And I saw a higher ranking student have trouble getting the hang of the Koshi Nage breakfall, so it's not the easiest thing to learn. If Seionage is harder than koshi nage on top of that, then that would not be a pleasant experience for someone on the receiving end.

You have to take the abilities and safety of your partners into account. If they can handle it and consent to doing it, fine. Otherwise, I think you should pull back.

But that is exactly my problem, there shouldn't be any higher ranking students having problems with a koshinage breakfall, it is ridiculous.You should never get a higher rank without being able to take a fall. However, when I suprisingly learned that those students could not handle it i did not do it anymore, but that only confounded my frustration.

You can also do techniques on those who don't want to go full out...you just have to put your ego aside.

But many of these same people had no problem going full out on me when it suited them. I did not go around smashing people unexpectedly with Judo throws, it was usually when a higer ranks wanted to play a little rough and I decided to oblige them.

At this point in time I only had a few months experience in Judo and I was just experimenting a little. there were plenty of people there that practiced hard as well and were quite competant at taking falls and putting up a scrap. I was not even close to being the person who practiced the hardest.


I'm going to make an assumption (sorry). I think one reason you come back here, as well as I do...is that you find that aikido people tend to be somewhat more intellectually or philosophically oriented as martial artist and the mental "sparring" or randori that you get is as important to development as a martial artist as the physical. To me, this is one of the greatest benefits of aikido...in developing your mind and connecting it to your body.

I guess there is certainly some truth to that

Michael Neal
05-25-2005, 08:45 AM
Thanks for the response Michael. Yeah, sounds like you needed to find a home more suited to your needs. Hey, as a not active enough 43 year old wannabe, you'd probably be too much for me too

Look I am no badass or anything, I train at a recreational Judo club and I probably just have average ability when compared to more competive clubs. There were plenty of people at ANV that had no problem with the way I practiced and trained harder and were more dedicated to training than me. I am just refering to a handful of people, there are actually a few of the same types in Judo that are getting on my nerves lately.

But one thing you will not find in judo is anyone beyond white belt who can't take a breakfall. it is an absolute requirememt and should be the same in Aikido.

CNYMike
05-25-2005, 04:40 PM
Well my response to that is take some time from training techniques and do more randori.

Point is if the time it takes to train techniques is a function of how long it takes sensei to help out everybody, then cutting that off to do randori ends up short-changing people.


But that is exactly my problem, there shouldn't be any higher ranking students having problems with a koshinage breakfall .....

IIRC, the person in question may have been doing it for the very first time.


it is ridiculous.You should never get a higher rank without being able to take a fall ....

Oh, really? Why? I don't know about ASU dojos like your old one (I peaked at the web site), but in the dojos I've been to, Koshi nage isn't the first technique new people learn. The Seidokan dojo I was in in the 1980s never got to things like it or aiki-otoshi, so I spent almost twenty years thinking Aikido didn't have those things! It's not listed at all in Best Aikido: The Fundamentals by O Sensei's son and grandson (although the Doshu' sequel does cover them). It appears to be something introduced at an "intermediate" level if you want to call it that. Judo, obviously, gets to hip throws sooner, and if they are harder than the Aikido version, then it makes sense that a senior Judo student would be better acquainted with those kind of falls than an Aikido student at the same level. This is because the two arts have different emphasis and different curricula. Neither is right or wrong, just different.

Oh, and BTW, I haven't seen hip throws in the grappling systems I've been introduced to as part of Kali. That doesn't mean they're not there, but I haven't seen them yet. And I've been doing Kali continuously for seven years.


However, when I suprisingly learned that those students could not handle it i did not do it anymore ....

Good.

Stefan Stenudd
05-25-2005, 06:19 PM
I agree with Michael that koshinage is not necessarily a basic technique, wherever aikido is practiced.

Me, I have some "second thoughts" about it. It is pretty much a kokyunage with an obstacle (tori's hip), so why not skip the obstacle?

We still do some koshinage at my dojo, from time to time. Not much, but just so that the students get a bit familiar with it, since it is practiced in many other aikido dojos, seminars, and so on.

To get a really good ukemi for koshinage, it has to be practiced almost as much as is done in judo - and most aikido dojos would think that there is just not enough time for that, with everything else to learn in aikido.

A very prominent aikido shihan once told me that tobikoshi, hard fall, is for the young. When you get up in age, you should avoid doing it too much (or at all).

Bronson
05-25-2005, 11:04 PM
The Seidokan dojo I was in in the 1980s never got to things like it or aiki-otoshi

Kobayashi sensei removed koshinage (and other things) from the official Seidokan curriculum. As for breakfalls we practice them in my class but not at my Sensei's school. They just aren't needed for the majority of Seidokan techniques. I run my class through them because my students tend to travel to other places more and I want them to have at least a rudimentary ability with them.

I can understand Michael's frustration but I just can't agree with it. Different people train for different reasons and at different levels. That should be respected. When you find folks that want to train at the same intensity you do, ramp it up. When you are partnered with someone who doesn't want to go there bring it down and study the technique under slower, more controlled conditions. You can learn a lot doing both. In the end it's their training and if they are getting what they need/want from it who are we to say it's not good training.

But many of these same people had no problem going full out on me when it suited them. That, I agree, would get on my nerves rather quickly. It'd be different if you asked to be thrown hard but if they just took it upon themselves to slam you but wouldn't let you train in kind when it was their turn to receive....not cool.

Bronson

CNYMike
05-26-2005, 01:15 AM
Kobayashi sensei removed koshinage (and other things) from the official Seidokan curriculum ....

I was wondering if that was what had happened, but I didn't want to shoot my mouth off without knowing for sure.

As an aside, a couple of years after quitting Seidokan, I was taking karate in Bangor, ME and one night, my sensei had us do the setups for Judo throws. I remember lying across my partner's back, noticing that three feet can seem a long way to the ground, and I thought, I am so glad there was none of this stuff in Aikido. You go from being vertical to horizontal directly; none of this pick-him-up-and-dump-him garbage.

Fast forward to 2004, and I sat out for part of Aikido class because I thought my left shoulder had been tweaked during my attempts at forward ukemi. And that's when I saw koshi nage for the first time.

"Rude awakening" does not do justice to my feelings at that moment.

:)

Bronson
05-26-2005, 02:46 AM
Yeah, I consider myself lucky to have a sensei with a judo background. He'll show that stuff to those who want it but it doesn't normally make it into regular class.

Bronson

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 09:35 AM
Oh, really? Why? I don't know about ASU dojos like your old one (I peaked at the web site), but in the dojos I've been to, Koshi nage isn't the first technique new people learn. The Seidokan dojo I was in in the 1980s never got to things like it or aiki-otoshi, so I spent almost twenty years thinking Aikido didn't have those things! It's not listed at all in Best Aikido: The Fundamentals by O Sensei's son and grandson (although the Doshu' sequel does cover them). It appears to be something introduced at an "intermediate" level if you want to call it that. Judo, obviously, gets to hip throws sooner, and if they are harder than the Aikido version, then it makes sense that a senior Judo student would be better acquainted with those kind of falls than an Aikido student at the same level. This is because the two arts have different emphasis and different curricula. Neither is right or wrong, just different.

Oh, and BTW, I haven't seen hip throws in the grappling systems I've been introduced to as part of Kali. That doesn't mean they're not there, but I haven't seen them yet. And I've been doing Kali continuously for seven years.

The basic hip throw is a fundemental basic technique in many martial arts, inluding Ju Jitsu, Judo, Brazilian jiu Jitsu, Karate, Aikido, TKD, etc. By telling me that koshinage is an advanced technique in Aikido does not give me any more confidence in Aikido, I mean Aikido generally prides itself in being an art that masters the art of ukemi. If they have not mastered the most basic form of ukemi, the breakfall, then I really don't know what to say.

Maybe this is just my opinion, and maybe I am a complete idiot who knows nothing about Aikido, maybe there are secrets that have been kept from me. But in my view there is no excuse for anyone above 4th kyu not to be able to do a breakfall from koshinage with confidence. it is a basic martial arts technique and an art from like Aikido that prides itself in having excellent and graceful ukemi should be ashamed of itself.

Randathamane
05-26-2005, 11:04 AM
The thing is that these techniques I used on the Judo student were done after asking him to attack me with an overhead strike and a punch to the stomach, I knew what was coming, I doubt I would have had as much success if it were more like randori.

It depends.....

When he attacks, he has the initiative of engagement- that is, you must move to counter his attack. If you do not move :dead:
This means that he is in control- so you must try to take that control from him. The priority is taking the initiative away so that HE is on the backfoot. If you move in behind him (i.E tenkan behind them) You can take the initiative by pulling him to the ground or striking at him- Now HE has to move to counter you and so you can dictate the battle.

See how it works? When you do a technique, what you are actually doing is taking the initiative away from the opponent as you are throwing them and they cannot attack you- they have to counter or respond by taking Ukemi. If they break out of the technique and you have to move- they retake the initiative.

However, if you just back off the you have a face off. The first to attack successfully will take the initiative of engagement and the whole damm thing starts over again. :freaky: :hypno: :crazy:

You don't have time for this so the key is to figure out what attack he is going to make as they do it. Others on other threads believe that you can....
"pe-empt this attack before they make it, while they are squaring up or getting into posture"

Nonsense. If you move before the attack, they will simply change to your new position or change the attack. (we do it at home all the time).
One must wait for that split second to see what they are doing- until they are committed- until the last moment to move before you do to see what is coming. Once they are committed the cannot abort the attack (the blow is already coming your way).

Now you know what attack they are throwing and thusly can counter it on how it falls. This kind of reaction only comes with experience however and takes time to develop. good luck with it and keep up the hard work. :) :) :)


:ai: :ki: :do:

Robert Rumpf
05-26-2005, 11:14 AM
I once had an Aikido teacher who wouldn't teach koshinages to his students. He obviously knew koshinages quite well, because when I asked him about them he demonstrated two or three that looked better than any I'd seen before in my Aikido career.

His answer to me was that koshinages were too dangerous. He claimed that every year in Japan some people die from koshinage breakfalls by landing on their neck. I don't know if what he was saying was true or not. I haven't heard of such a thing happening in America. This sensei considered the risk too great to be worth the learning reward.

This sensei's Aikido was flawless, at least to my limited understanding at the time. His students were no slouches, either.

I personally would expect that the "average" Judoka would be better at taking falls than the "average" Aikidoka as the "average" Judoka has to deal with more dangerous and uncertain conditions in terms of falling than the "average" Aikidoka has to on a regular basis.

I would think that getting thrown by someone in competition who is using a lot of muscle and speed and whose technique you are not familiar with would be very good at teaching you how to fall well under a lot of uncertainty. If Judo class is to prepare you for these competitions, I would expect that it had many of those same elements.

I have seen that two of the people whose falls I consider to be excellent have come from Judo. Two guys come to mind: Clark from my current dojo, and Kevin from my first dojo. I have also seen Aikidoka whose falls are better than theirs, but they were also more senior so its not a fair comparison.

However, ukemi is only partially represented by taking falls.

I have noticed that my own falls have had to adapt when I've switched dojos (sometimes they have gotten better, sometimes worse), but most mid-level Aikidoka I have met have not switched dojos more than once or twice and probably don't go to enough seminars to get enough different partner experience in terms of fall practice. It is entirely possible that their falling is fragile.

I have also seen at least one person get their shodan who could not take two breakfalls if you requested it. I don't think that is necessarily a problem with their Aikido, but I do view it as a potential safety issue. However, if their partner is aware of this, and if their partner has control, I don't see why doing Aikido without breakfalls isn't possible.

One of the types of people I am most terrified of training with are people who think and act as though they can fall but who cannot. Those people are extremely dangerous to themselves and to others.

Rob

CNYMike
05-26-2005, 11:33 AM
The basic hip throw is a fundemental basic technique in many martial arts, inluding Ju Jitsu, Judo, Brazilian jiu Jitsu .....

Never did those.


.... Karate .....

The throws I've seen in karate may go around the hip, but nothing up and over as in Koshi nage. In Shotokan we never did any throws at all, except for one time when Sensei had us do the setups for Judo throws.

..... Aikido, TKD ....

The aforementioned Shotokan sensei had a black belt in TKD -- his he'd been in a school with a unique history --- and no hip throws either.

...... By telling me that koshinage is an advanced technique in Aikido does not give me any more confidence in Aikido ....

There are plenty of arts where the hip throw does not show up *at all* in spite of your protestations to the contrary. You want to tell a Thai Boxer you have no confindence in their art because they don't do Judo-style hip throws? Bring a bucket; it's your ride home.


I mean Aikido generally prides itself in being an art that masters the art of ukemi. If they have not mastered the most basic form of ukemi, the breakfall, then I really don't know what to say.


Well, that's the way Aikido is. They don't do things the way Judo does because they're not Judo; that's all there is to it. If you can't accept it, too bad.

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 11:47 AM
Well, that's the way Aikido is. They don't do things the way Judo does because they're not Judo; that's all there is to it. If you can't accept it, too bad

Its not too bad for me, it is too bad for the Aikido people who injure themselves because they can't take ukemi. And its too bad for all the Aikidoka who can not learn how to do a simple hip throw because there classmates can't take the fall. It impedes the learning process.

Robert is right, it is a safety issue at the very least. But I am not as confident as he in saying that the shodan he mentioned has perfectly fine Aikido even if he can not take breakfalls. Aikido, as it was explained to me through instruction, is at least 50% ukemi.

And some people here were arguing with me a while back that an average Aikidoka would have no problem sparring with an average Judoka, they seemed to think that the Judoka had no advantage. Well, for one thing it seems the avergae Aikidoka would get smeared by the most basic technique in the Judoka's arsenal.

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 11:51 AM
To all the Aikidoka that do know how to practice breakfalls and koshinage, please excuse me as I mean no disrespect to Aikido in general, just the watering down of the martial aspect of it.

I am not an expert in the history of Aikido but I find it hard to imagine that people trained with Ueshiba and were not able to do breakfalls until shodan.

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 12:07 PM
Nonsense. If you move before the attack, they will simply change to your new position or change the attack. (we do it at home all the time).
One must wait for that split second to see what they are doing- until they are committed- until the last moment to move before you do to see what is coming. Once they are committed the cannot abort the attack (the blow is already coming your way).
:

Aikido definately has had a profound influence on my Judo, I am very aggressive in that I do not back away from my opponent. I move right into them as they are coming to grip me, those whoe are not experienced with doing randori with me are often thrown off balance mentally by this.

Ron Tisdale
05-26-2005, 12:35 PM
Hi Michael,

Most of the early students of Ueshiba already knew ukemi from one source or another. From what I hear and read, ukemi wasn't 'taught'. I see the same in some schools in Daito ryu today...

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 12:51 PM
Ron, then I would argue that today's instructors need to take this into consideration and not be so rigidly attached to practicing Aikido so traditionally. The majority of new Aikido students do not have previous martial arts expereince. While it may be blasphemous to some, it would not hurt to borrow some of the Judo breakfall warmups practices, and do them regularly in place of other less useful warmup exercises. As well as practice koshinage more regularly. And koshinage is alot more useful than many of the Aikido techniques that are practice all the time in Aikido dojos.

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 12:57 PM
It seems to me that Aikidoka are picking and choosing when it comes to tradition, they argue that things must be taught in a certain manner because that is how O' Sensei did it, yet they don't practice anywhere near as martially hard as they did when O' Sensei was around.

The way O'Sensei did things may or may not apply in today's world.

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 01:10 PM
Anyway, I will shut up now. I have given my 2 cents. I will just go back to practicing Judo and will fight to keep it from becoming an aerobics workout instead of a martial art. Unfortunately this same thing is happening in all forms of martial arts, not just Aikido.

People want it to be easy to get a black belt, to rub their ego, pretend they can fight, and not break a sweat while doing it. It is the lazy American way these days, and all martial arts instructors face the decision of either losing their students or caving in some in order to accomodate them and stay in business.

Ron Tisdale
05-26-2005, 01:35 PM
Ron, then I would argue that today's instructors need to take this into consideration and not be so rigidly attached to practicing Aikido so traditionally. The majority of new Aikido students do not have previous martial arts expereince.

I think that many do...the yoshinkan for instance, teaches breakfalls in just about every class. Falls that have stood me well with judoka as well as in Daito ryu practice (I may have overstated my reluctance to get thrown by you when trying to be humerous :)).

While it may be blasphemous to some, it would not hurt to borrow some of the Judo breakfall warmups practices, and do them regularly in place of other less useful warmup exercises.

Well, I would do them in addition to...I don't think any of the warmups we do are 'less usefull', from an aikido perspective. YMMV By the way, can you describe them? We do an exercise where you start sitting or kneeling, rock back, and breakfall to right or left practicing bent leg, straight leg, weight on the bent leg, hand on the straight leg side slaps. In beginners classes as well as others. Basically a judo hard fall, with more emphasis on the slapping (very early for the silent breakfall).

As well as practice koshinage more regularly. And koshinage is alot more useful than many of the Aikido techniques that are practice all the time in Aikido dojos.

Well, I've seen many variations of koshinage...some are just begging for uke to choke you out... :) I happen to like the variation I learned at the yoshinkan, and add it to kotegaishi, shihonage, and a few others...but then I'm also slightly evil... :D

Oh, and please stop by now and again to let us know how you are doing!
Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
05-26-2005, 02:50 PM
These days I am leaning more to a mixed martial arts way of life.

I guess I kind of equate it to muscians. I think the really good ones study the classics, develop a good base in one or two styles of established music such as classical, or jazz, then combine it into their own art and make it their own.

Others will choose to stay within the realm of the traditional and become really good.

I think there are many good things to learn from Aikido, and think it is a wonderful base to grow on if y ou want to become a serious, lifetime, well rounded martial artist.

Studying primarily under the army combatives system, we are taking the basics of BJJ, the mid range skills of Muay Thai and american boxing, and the weapons of kali and escrima.

I am also seeing much benefit to learning russian sambo and judo as well.

I am glad for my base in aikido as it offers a great platform to grow on...for a lifetime.

Robert Rumpf
05-26-2005, 02:54 PM
It all boils down to priorities. There is only so much class time, and for every thing that is emphasized, something else is deemphasized. Instructors have a very, very difficult job picking what they think needs special attention and what can actually be taught in that massed-learning environment so that every student gets something important about the art out of a class.

Michael, you seem to think that learning breakfalls is a very important part of learning martial arts. That the faster one learns those skills, the better it is for all concerned. That belief may or may not be true, and I may or may not agree with you.

Judo does agree more with your sense of priorities, so its a good thing that you practice Judo. Maybe certain Aikido schools agree with you or maybe not. Maybe certain instructors at certain schools agree with you, as well. I know that I tend to find certain instructors more in line with my thinking than others. I also know that that changes over time.

I may think it important that people be in good aerobic shape to practice Aikido. From that sense, wouldn't I be justified in making people run in Aikido class? I don't feel that way - but I could, and if I was the instructor, all of my students from the marathon runners to the hideously overweight to the 70 year olds would have to suffer through it regardless of their personal training state and goals. Some would benefit, some would find it wasteful, and others might be harmed (heart-attacks). Would I be getting at the essense of the art?

Personally, I am at the point right now where I am interested in the idea that Aikido technique success or failure is resolved at the first martial moment. Because of that, the rest of the technique after that first moment is a waste, in my current outlook. Maybe next year my point of view will change and I'll be interested in zanshin. Who knows.

I still have to do the rest of the technique though, because that is what is taught. Besides, its only fair. Uke may not share my point of view.

However, all of these opinions are irrelevent. Neither you nor I is teaching any given Aikido class, and so the only vote that we have available to us is our feet, or our voices, should they be heeded. When you run a dojo, you can encourage or discourage whatever you think is appropriate, but I doubt you'll be seeing many older or infirm people in a place with a more robust physical regime.

The idea of following a tradition with a broad set of techniques (and the idea of cross-training in general in different skills or arts) is that you get a little bit of bit everything. If you're really interested in any one thing though, you're going to be disappointed. Aikido people who love koshinages should probably go to Judo or find the rare instructor who is obsessed with them. Aikido people who love effective strikes should probably go to Karate, etc.

Like any student in any subject we are all beneficiaries and victims of the biases and awareness of our instructors. When or if we are ever instructors, we can inflict our own bias on our students and fix all the problems that exist in their Aikido that we now see, and create a whole new host of new problems for them that we won't see at that time.

I think the stronger argument is that we also have the oppurtunity and the duty to incorporate whatever we think is important in our training but lacking in other training before, after, or outside of class with whomever we can get to work on it with us. This is what I try to do. After all, it may be sensei's class but it is my Aikido.

You know how I learned koshinage? I cornered the ikkyu Eric at my last dojo and got him to teach me koshinage. In 3-4 five to ten minute solo sessions after class I learned more about koshinage than I had learned in the prior 6 years that I had been doing Aikido. For the first time I actually felt safe giving and receiving the technique... and I had known how to do other types of breakfalls well enough already.

In retrospect, that was probably the best way to learn koshinage. I think it lends itself to one-on-one instruction with the body types picked appropriately. All the other times I had tried to learn it, it was tacked on to class in a hurried way, often on a crowded mat, with an uke I didn't know or trust. It was a technique that had me scared for my safety or theirs.

You can argue that this technique shouldn't be neglected in the curriculum, but it is. In the Aikido I have seen, koshinage is not a high priority technique for lower ranked people. I am not that interested in koshinage (although it is fun) so its a good thing that I take Aikido, and not Judo.

You're right that it is a shame and a waste when people get injured because they don't know how to do breakfalls. Add randori to that list of potential problems too. For that matter, add martial arts. If people knew everything they needed to know to not get injured in Aikido class, the class would be meaningless for them to take.

Most Aikidoka will try to tell their partner how to fix something that they think is a potential injury, or tell their partner not to hurt them. I know I've pulled people aside before class to work on their rolls or falls when they look especially painful. I'm sure you would do the same thing. This is not something that is always part of the dojo culture though, and some instructors frown on this instruction by students, in part because the students sometimes say the wrong things and junior students can pick up bad or harmful habits. Some junior students even resent any sort of advice. A rare junior student is also missed and slips between the cracks without acquiring basic skills. No system is perfect.

There are three people who deserve the blame for any injury that happens through lack of student preparation (and you could argue that all injuries happen through lack of student preparation). I'm sure you can guess who they are: uke, nage, and sensei.

It can be hoped that it won't take an injury for an instructor or senior student to spend some extra time with the unskillful student and help them to learn those extra skills such as koshinage breakfalls. Unfortunately, this type of outreach is not always encouraged, allowed, or possible, and junior students are not always made aware that they can ask anyone for help, or that they can sit out of dangerous techniques if they feel uncomfortable.

I tend to walk away when I realize I am far beyond my skills, but it took me a long time to realize that I could do that. I also tend to arrive early and train my own interests. When people do these things, their training matches their interests more.

This ability to realize who needs what helps is part of beginner's mind, I think: remembering what it looked like when we were a beginner helps us to tell the new students the right things. After all, us Americans are seemingly not used to learning by example without verbal prompting. They need to be told to and encouraged to learn this way from the beginning, especially when there is not beginner class and if that is the dojo culture. This gap in expectations causes many huge problems in Aikido.

Oh yeah... I also think that breakfalls from koshinage are a distinct skill, separate from other types of breakfalls. At least for beginners, they can be much scarier. I know that I still get worried about them when I have someone throwing me in koshinage who doesn't know how to do it. I often end up throwing myself over them.

The only other technique that I can think of that also deserves a similar asterisk for special breakfalls is shihonage breakfalls with a taller, standing uke.

Rob

Kevin Leavitt
05-26-2005, 03:02 PM
Personally, I am at the point right now where I am interested in the idea that Aikido technique success or failure is resolved at the first martial moment. Because of that, the rest of the technique after that first moment is a waste, in my current outlook. Maybe next year my point of view will change and I'll be interested in zanshin. Who knows.

I am ALWAYS interested in this as my ulimate goal. However, I have not found it to be a reality when in full free sparring/randori with someone who is coming from many different directions, fast, with feints, and frankly does not worry about being struck a few times on his way in to achieve the clinch.

My interest right now lay in trying to figure out how to control a guy with all this going on, while not being taking to the ground so you can eventually get to a good position, namely his backside where you can then perform something like irminage. All this while watching for weapons in the other hand, and other partners he may have.

I have my work cut out!

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 03:07 PM
Good post Rob, I agree with just about everything you said. BTW, the shihonage breakfall is one that still scares the hell out of me to this day. I would rather be thrown with a huge Judo throw with Nage landing on top of me than do that. If Nage hesitates at all with that throw it is very easy to land right on your neck.

You also mentioned randori as a problem with inexperienced people, very true that is another reason to get beginners up to speed sooner, so that randori training can begin earlier

Stefan Stenudd
05-26-2005, 03:50 PM
Aikido definately has had a profound influence on my Judo, I am very aggressive in that I do not back away from my opponent. I move right into them as they are coming to grip me, those whoe are not experienced with doing randori with me are often thrown off balance mentally by this.
Interesting strategy - quite different from what is usually seen in judo championships. FWIW, I strongly believe you have the right approach, Michael.

Somebody I knew used the same method, quite successfully, against skilled judo practicioners. To him, it was advancing with his center, sort of offering it to the partner. They could not deal with that, and lost their balance.
At the moment they applied a throwing technique, he did the opposite of what was expected - he advanced, center forward, instead of retreating. Straight posture, relaxed body, center forward.
Is that what you do, too, Michael?

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 03:57 PM
Yep, thats what I do alot. It also gets me close to them which is the best position to be in for Judo throws. Sometimes I just calmly walk straight at them and they often have a confused look on their face. Sometimes I even smile, they are like WTF?

It does not always work but it is better than fighting from a distance and working myself to death trying to throw them from arms length away.

Judo works best from an upright relaxed posture, just like in Aikido. Strength is important but only at the right moments.

Michael Neal
05-26-2005, 04:06 PM
I also remember doing this some in multiple randori in Aikido, instead of retreating as most people tend to do, I would walk forward right in between the attackers and they would sometimes run into eachother or me but would fail their attack. Most of the times they would pause as well, if I was not limited to Aikido techniques during this I could have launched attacks while doing this and really shaken things up. I do miss Aikido randori alot and I wish we did more of it. I learned more about combat frorm the limited Aikido randori I did than from the many many hours practicing Aikido techniques.

This is why I am a constant advocate of randori.

I think the secret is to have no fear and be aggressive, controlled aggressiveness.

Stefan Stenudd
05-26-2005, 04:31 PM
Yes, I believe that the fundamental principle of taninzugake, several uke attacking simultaneously, is never to retreat. You have to move forward, in continuous taisabaki turns of your body. Once you start backing, you will be swarmed by the attackers.
When you keep on moving forward, you are literally ahead.

Pauliina Lievonen
05-26-2005, 05:49 PM
I also remember doing this some in multiple randori in Aikido, instead of retreating as most people tend to do, I would walk forward right in between the attackers and they would sometimes run into eachother or me but would fail their attack.

This how I've been taught, too. Not necessarily what I always do, though. :p :o

One class I lead we practiced two-persons attacks from the point of view of the attackers, unfortunately the result was that a couple of the mid-kyu grades got so good at attacking that going between them didn't work anymore, I'd just get sandwiched. :D

BTW the one and only judo class I visited they started with some sort of shoulder throw. Ukemi was fine, but I admit I took a couple deep breaths first... :)

kvaak
Pauliina

CNYMike
05-27-2005, 12:06 PM
Its not too bad for me, it is too bad for the Aikido people who injure themselves because they can't take ukemi. And its too bad for all the Aikidoka who can not learn how to do a simple hip throw because there classmates can't take the fall. It impedes the learning process.


This hinges on your assumption that Judo-style hip throws are a fundamental technique to many martial arts and you can not do anything without them. I'm sorry, but that is not true.

In the past twenty years, I have done two styles of Aikido (including what I am doing now), two styles of Karate, one style of Kali, one style of Wing Chun, one Indonesian system, and I have "switched" styles of Tai Chi because someone else is taking over the class I'm in. I have seen, and on the business end of, a great many throws. There are throws you can argue are hip throws because it is used as a fulcrum, but the only time prior to Aikido where I saw anything resembleming Koshi Nage, where uke is actually picked up and dumped off nage's back, was in Shotokan class where we did the setup for that, and that was introduced as a throw from Judo, not something fundamental to Shotokan. Meaning it is not a basic Shotokan technique. And my sensei had, at that time, 4th degree black belts in Shotokan and TKD, so I'd think he'd know if it was in the syllabus or not.

I'm sorry, but based on my experience, your argument that koshi nage and its Judo equivelants are a fundamental technique all arts need does not hold water, because I have seen many arts and it is NOT a basic technique in them. And if Aikido suffers in your eyes because Koshi Nage is not the first thing you learn in Aikido, then God only knows how horrible damn near anything else looks when they don't do it at all.

But at least knocking down straw men is good exercise, so keep it up!

Michael Neal
05-27-2005, 12:24 PM
why are you getting so defensive? I don't care if it is first technique learned or not but it is an Aikido throw and people should be able to take a breakfall from it, especially higher ranks. You obviously disgree, that is fine, but I personally would not like to learn Aikido from you or whoever teaches you.

CNYMike
05-27-2005, 11:39 PM
why are you getting so defensive? .....

Are you kidding me?

This is what you said in post #50:


"The basic hip throw is a fundemental basic technique in many martial arts, inluding Ju Jitsu, Judo, Brazilian jiu Jitsu, Karate, Aikido, TKD, etc."

I boldfaced karate because that is the art I know best -- I've been doing it for 20 years! YOU spouted off that a hip throw is a "fundemental basic technique" in an art where I know for a fact it is not in the basics. How do I know? Because I've done it. I know traditional Japanese karate quite well. Well enough to know you're wrong, and not hesitate to say so.

You can call it being defensive; I call it correcting an innacurate statement.


I don't care if it is first technique learned or not but it is an Aikido throw and people should be able to take a breakfall from it, especially higher ranks. You obviously disgree ....

I am not saying the higher ranks shouldn't know it. I am saying Aikido people do not get to it unitl later in the training program. And I am saying that your assertion that hip throws are basic in everything but Aikido is wrong (except for Judo, of course).


that is fine, but I personally would not like to learn Aikido from you or whoever teaches you.

Sir, that is your prerogative. I am sure my sensei, who is an unflappaby nice person, would welcome you and you'd get a good work out. If you want to pass it up, that is your choice. But if that is your reaction to having someone call you to account on some inaccurate statements, you have your own issues to resolve.

xuzen
05-28-2005, 12:54 AM
:D M. Neal,

You are just such a Judo lover. Aikido to you is like the girl you like very much from next door, isn't it. It is attractive enough for you, but you just can't seem to get her attention, yes?

M. Neal said:
Its not too bad for me, it is too bad for the Aikido people who injure themselves because they can't take ukemi. And its too bad for all the Aikidoka who can not learn how to do a simple hip throw because there classmates can't take the fall. It impedes the learning process.
Each person has different learning curve... some are better, some are not. Those whom you can't throw koshinage (I guess that is your favourite technique isn't it?), then do something else. You will still get him on the ground. Aikido is a mutual beneficial exercise for both party. If you know your partner can't take it and you try to force it, two outcomes I predict... you will fail the technique because uke will, from sheer panic, cling on to you for dear life and a miserable technical outcome. Or, you will force the technique through and the unprepared uke will injured himself. Either way, it is not the desired outcome of the exercise.

I am wondering why you are so fixated on getting people with koshinage. There are so many techniques to choose from to still get the desired result, aren't there?

BTW, Koshinage isn't in my school's official grading syllabus. So we don't specifically learn how to breakfall from them. I guess that is purely Judo technique. However, in a jiyu waza session, some Judo trained fellows wishes to throw in a bit of koshinage to spice things up.. it is fine with sensei, but SAFETY is the key consideration.

I agree with just about everything you said. BTW, the shihonage breakfall is one that still scares the hell out of me to this day. I would rather be thrown with a huge Judo throw with Nage landing on top of me than do that. If Nage hesitates at all with that throw it is very easy to land right on your neck.
See... there are bound to be a certain ukemi that you are also not so good at taking. So, do see it from the point of other people. To them Koshinage throw is as scary as Shihonage throw to you. Hah, now that I know your weakness... you bet I will throw you with shihonage every time I get the opportunity if we ever meet up in a competition environment :D :D :D .

Koshi Nage or not... what do I know or care... I am only just an Atemi Kind of Guy :D .

Boon.

CNYMike
05-28-2005, 11:11 AM
..... the shihonage breakfall is one that still scares the hell out of me to this day .... If Nage hesitates at all with that throw it is very easy to land right on your neck.



Having been on the business end of a lot of shiho nages, I don't see that as a hazzard. You do have to worry about your arm unwinding and having all these muscles in your arm, shoulder, and side being pulled, strained, or ripped. But landing on your neck? Don't see it m'self.

Matter of fact, the breakfall for that isn't really a breakfall; it's called a "rear sitfall." A Judo player capable of taking a hip throw should have no problem with that. Maybe all Judo people 4th kyu and up should be required to know shiho nage. It's inexcusable if they don't because for them it's too damn easy. ;) :D :p :cool:

Kevin Leavitt
05-28-2005, 02:12 PM
shihonage or seonage? seonage is scary cause you go up and over the back and yes you will land on your neck if not done properly.

Kevin (who can take ukemi for koshi, but cannot do it to save my life) Leavitt

Michael Neal
05-28-2005, 09:59 PM
Having been on the business end of a lot of shiho nages, I don't see that as a hazzard. You do have to worry about your arm unwinding and having all these muscles in your arm, shoulder, and side being pulled, strained, or ripped. But landing on your neck? Don't see it m'self.

Matter of fact, the breakfall for that isn't really a breakfall; it's called a "rear sitfall." A Judo player capable of taking a hip throw should have no problem with that. Maybe all Judo people 4th kyu and up should be required to know shiho nage. It's inexcusable if they don't because for them it's too damn easy. ;) :D :p :cool:

You must be talking about the beginner/light way to do shihonage where uke does what you call a "sit fall", I am talking about when Nage launches you completely over into a full breakfall with shihonage. You are flipped completely over while your arm is immobilized. If Nage does a weak throw and you only get half roation you can easily land right on your head/neck without your arm to help protect it.

The breakfall itself is easy enough (for people who can do them), it is just a dangerous throw if Nage does not know what they are doing. Thats why most people do the form you are talking about most of the time. I personally think it is one of the most potentially devastating throws in Aikido.

Maybe you did not learn this full version of shihonage but it was taught in my Aikido class, it was mostly used by the upper ranks because it is a dangerous technique. My sensei mentioned that you could pretty much dislocate or break someone's arm and crack their skull on the ground at the same time with this technique if you did it with enough intent.

CNYMike
05-29-2005, 02:08 AM
Maybe you did not learn this full version of shihonage but it was taught in my Aikido class, it was mostly used by the upper ranks because it is a dangerous technique. My sensei mentioned that you could pretty much dislocate or break someone's arm and crack their skull on the ground at the same time with this technique if you did it with enough intent.

Let's see, I've been back at Aikido for about a year now. I am very inflexible and have trouble with forward ukemi. What do you think?

I have seen throws like that demonstrated, though. Sometimes nage has to yank on uke's arm at the right moment to insure uke doesn't land on their heads. And it is for the higher ranks.

Red Beetle
06-01-2005, 11:21 PM
Guys,

I can understand the worry with Shihonage. It can be scary. Not all may be athletic, pliable, or physically able to endure the needed breakfall for shihonage.

But, there should be no problem with the hip-toss. This is the 6th throw one learns in Judo (if you go by the traditional teaching method of learning the 67 throws in order).

The Judo throws, when done properly, are designed in such a way as not to hurt Uke (the one thrown). O-goshi (hip-toss) is a fine example.

I will often do an Ukemi drill where I will make O-goshi slowly and fluidly on the student so that the student may practice his basic fall (Zippon Kaiten). O-goshi can be done where you roll Uke over the hip, or where you lift Uke up, then roll him over. By lifting Uke, then pausing, you can tell the student to prepare for the fall (tuck you chin, hold your breath...). Then you can slowly roll them over to the mat. Judo throws are such, that Tori (the one making the technique) can go slow and break Uke's fall for him, or blast Uke into the ground. :crazy:

This is why I think that one should learn the 67 Judo throws before moving on to Aikido projections. A projection is related to, but not the same as a throw. A throw is a technique in which I have complete control over Uke's body and momentum. And, as I said earlier, if the throws are done right, Uke should be O.K. even if he doesn't know how to fall correctly. For example, in O-goshi, I will roll Uke for him. Even if he cannot land correctly, I can lay him down gently on his side. Uke will adjust to being flipped through the air at a controlled rate. Falling from an O-goshi then becomes reflexive.s Uke's ukemi improves, and he will advance. A projection is not as controlled in the sense that I do not always have a good hold of Uke's body. Shihonage is an example. The ukemi in a projection can depend upon uke to a great extent.

I have 4 children. Three of them wrestle (the youngest is 3yrs). All three of them can hip toss each other. Now, little kids have very pliable bodies that can handle such throws nicely when trained well, and the neat thing is that they don't think much of it. They just do what you tell them to do (yeah right). We, as adults, worry and rationalize such things. We don't have the trust of little children. We wonder, "Am I going to be able to get up out of bed the next morning?" And that is not a bad ponder sometimes. :blush:

If you go to my website, then you can see a picture of my daughter (age 8 at that time) throwing her brother (age 6 at that time) full force with O-goshi. Go to:
www.kingsportjudo.com
then got to
Training For Kids
then click on
Throw Like A Girl
it is the first picture.

I know Aikido and Hapkido instructors who do a great job at ukemi, and have their guys able to take just about any type of fall. But, at my school, because I dictate the pace of each student, I prefer my guys to be proficient in Judo before entering the study of Aikido.

Judo can be done soft, or hard. I encourage competition, but not everyone wants to compete. Not everyone can compete and excel at competitive endeavors. I have guys who could care less if they ever compete. They want to train because they think Jiu-jitsu is cool, and they want to relate to Royce Gracie at some level. Others think Judo is incredible, and they are taking Judo so they can help promote the system. I got guys who want to go through my Judo and Jiu-jitsu programs so they can get to study Aikido (nothing wrong with that). They are already surprised at how gentle and efficient Judo and Jiu-jitsu can be. Their study of Aikido will be beginning shortly. :cool:

Well, guys don't get frustrated. Koshinage is just one technique. Is it more important or less important than other techniques? NO, all the techniques are equally important. This is why we must be good at all of them.

Train hard guys!
Red Beetle.

www.kingsportjudo.com

Nick Simpson
06-02-2005, 06:50 AM
Try getting out of a reverse hip throw, now thats scary.

deepsoup
06-02-2005, 07:30 AM
Try getting out of a reverse hip throw, now thats scary.
If you want scary judo ukemi, I'd recommend you try the ura nage from shomen uchi in the penultimate set of the Kodokan nage no kata. ..shudder.. :dead:

Sean
x

Ron Tisdale
06-02-2005, 08:37 AM
Scary throws? Shiho combined with koshinage. :D

Ron

rob_liberti
06-02-2005, 08:52 AM
Scary throws? Shiho combined with koshinage. You know. I totally agree. I can take that ukemi all day, but it is the one technique I refuse to teach in my classes. I don't know of any apprpoach (other than the Darwinistic approach) of teaching it. Any one have some ideas for a simpler and safer approach to get new students up to taking such ukemi?!

Rob

Dazzler
06-02-2005, 09:01 AM
Scary throws? Shiho combined with koshinage. :D

Ron

Its pretty scarey...but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage..

I've seen pictures of Saito Sensei doing this but cant remember anyone teaching it in any aikido class I've attended.

The wrestlers seem to love it but they usually refrain from dumping the victim on his head...must make poor TV! :crazy:

grondahl
06-02-2005, 09:22 AM
Its pretty scarey...but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage..

I've seen pictures of Saito Sensei doing this but cant remember anyone teaching it in any aikido class I've attended.


I really cant get this picture in to my head.
But shionage entrance to koshi is fairly common in our practice.

Stefan Stenudd
06-02-2005, 09:27 AM
but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage.. I've seen pictures of Saito Sensei doing this but cant remember anyone teaching it in any aikido class I've attended.Oh, it's still pretty much standard in so called Iwama ryu aikido, those who follow Saito sensei's teaching.
Actually, it's not that very scary at all, I'd say - on the other hand, in my dojo we don't do it regularly ;)

My former teacher Ichimura sensei often did iriminage so that he entered with his leg behind uke in the throw, causing uke to fall backward over tori's leg. That was kind of scary, I remember, because uke had no way of controlling his/her ukemi in the least.

grondahl
06-02-2005, 09:42 AM
Oh, it's still pretty much standard in so called Iwama ryu aikido, those who follow Saito sensei's teaching.
Actually, it's not that very scary at all, I'd say - on the other hand, in my dojo we don't do it regularly ;)

Then it´s just a regular iriminage in my book. And the ukemi is easy. You go in to a breakfall only if tori is good enough to actually throw you. And if they are that good they also will have control over you during the throw.

Dazzler
06-02-2005, 09:54 AM
Then it´s just a regular iriminage in my book. And the ukemi is easy. You go in to a breakfall only if tori is good enough to actually throw you. And if they are that good they also have control.

The version I have in mind...and I am sure stefan will be familiar with involves slipping behind uke for irimi nage...but then reaching down with your free hand to ukes ankles and pulling uke backwards over your shoulders with the hand controlling his gi or neck.

as you stand up you have uke in a back-breaker position across your shoulders.

Is this your regular irimi nage Peter? :freaky: what do you do to stretch your practice? ;)

Cheers

D

Stefan Stenudd
06-02-2005, 10:30 AM
The version I have in mind...and I am sure stefan will be familiar with involves slipping behind uke for irimi nage...but then reaching down with your free hand to ukes ankles and pulling uke backwards over your shoulders with the hand controlling his gi or neck. as you stand up you have uke in a back-breaker position across your shoulders.Yes, I know it. You're right - that's a scary one. With some luck, uke lands on his/her feet - but the ride itself is bewildering :)

Ron Tisdale
06-02-2005, 10:42 AM
Yeah, ganseki otoshi is a kicker alright. There is some discussion on E-budo I believe about the ukemi for it.

Its pretty scarey...but what about irimi nage combined with koshinage..

This one doesn't bother me, simply because my arms are free...I can slap out of it, do a back fall, do a forward twisting roll, several different types of ukemi depending on the situation.

There is one variation though that scares the hell out of me as shite...when you keep a tight control of uke's head and the back of their neck...my uke last night had his neck give out this awesome crack! Scared the living daylights out of me!

Ron (he was fine...thankfully!)

Nick Simpson
06-02-2005, 12:08 PM
A couple of years ago I had someone perform a bastardised mix of shihonage-koshinage with a sweep to my legs to take me over the top too. That hurt.

grondahl
06-02-2005, 01:34 PM
Nope, Ganseki Otoshi is not my standard iriminage.
We try out ganseki otoshi now and again, but not that often. I dont se it often on seminars, even though Evenås Sensei did at the latest New Years seminar.

I guess that Stefan remembers Jöran Fagerlunds ganseki otoshi on his yondan-examination? That was probably the smothest one I´ve seen live.

Ketsan
06-02-2005, 07:43 PM
Kubi nage *shudder* I hate kubi nage.

grondahl
06-03-2005, 02:00 AM
My former teacher Ichimura sensei often did iriminage so that he entered with his leg behind uke in the throw, causing uke to fall backward over tori's leg. That was kind of scary, I remember, because uke had no way of controlling his/her ukemi in the least.

A little like the ones that Nevelius and Jorma does? But without their soft flowing style of execution maybe?

Stefan Stenudd
06-03-2005, 05:58 AM
A little like the ones that Nevelius and Jorma does? But without their soft flowing style of execution maybe?Not really. Nevelius/Jorma do the French style iriminage, where uke makes a forward fall, but the one I meant is a backward fall - tori's leg blocking the way. Uke slides off of tori's leg - in the friendly version.

Alex, I agree with you on kubinage. Quite unpleasant.
Kind of fun for tori, though ;)

Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 09:59 AM
Wow, that gives me an idea, a haraigoshi or uchimata combined with shihonage, that would be a really nasty throw.

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2005, 10:59 AM
Yeah, it would! Please don't ever throw me that way! I hate uchimata in any case...if I'm remembering that throw correctly, its way too close to the nasty bits in any case!

I'm not sure I can picture how to combine shiho with uchimata (something doesn't seem to quite line up) but combining it with leg sweeps is quite common. Especially when stepping back or pivoting. Works omote ura, whatever.

RT :)

PS ok, I think I figured out what I don't like about the uchimata combo...but I may just not know that throw very well. Inner thigh reap, I think? The problem is to reap on the inner thigh means that uke has to be really turned to me as shite, which I can't seem to figure out if its a folded arm shiho...even if uke is turned that far, I think I'd still have to take their wrist away from their shoulder to do that throw, which would be way too dangerous for normal practice.

If you do it with a straight arm shiho, it may work out a little better, but the positioning and balance required still seem awkward...with uchimata, what corner do you usually set uke's balance toward to do the throw? Uke's front right? This question probably shows just how weak my judo is...

Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 11:25 AM
It is hard to describe without demonstrating but the way i am imagining it would be to already be in the progress of the shihonage throw and to use the uchimata, haraigoshi, ashigaruma as a way to get an extra lift on the throw.

Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 11:28 AM
Uke's front right would be one way to do uchimata, there are many variations that have different ways of entering.

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2005, 12:00 PM
yep, I can see the other throws working that way really well, just not uchimata (I really hate getting hit hard with that throw!)
Ron

Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 12:03 PM
if they know how to do the throw good you are generally safe from danger in that area :)

I do not let white belts throw me with it

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2005, 12:12 PM
I do not let white belts throw me with it

:) Understood! I remember seeing Miek Skoss at a seminar with a HUGE bruise all up his thigh...that is one heck of a powerfull throw when done right.

Ron (perpetual white belt in judo)