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ChrisHein
05-17-2005, 12:26 PM
I often hear Aikidoka talking about "being" or "staying" soft. Meaning that they stay in a place where they are not resisting, and not forcing technique. I would agree that this is a very important part of Aikido. The ability to be responsive, and move with your attacker is essential in developing "Aiki".

The problem I see is not in the Idea of being "soft", it's in the idea of training this concept. While it's true that most beginners need to focus on being sensitive, and relaxing, and should be kept at a very slow pace. Advanced Aikidoka seldom leave this generally relaxed environment with their practice of their Aikido. They may speed up the practice, ask for harder attacks, and even practice regular jiyuwaza, but they are still leaving themselves completely untrained with respects to real resistance. By never practicing your technique against resistive opponents, you are short sideing yourself. When you actually meet a resistive attack in real confrontation, you are likely to freeze up, and not respond, you will lose the "softness", you've been training!
So my question Is why don't more Aikidoka practice against resistive attacks. Why is there not really any sparring* in Aikido.

-Chris Hein

*Sparring: (I know lots of people will have confusion about my usage of this word.) I mean sparring in the since that you would see in in a competitive sport martial art school.

mj
05-17-2005, 12:28 PM
.... Why is there not really any sparring in Aikido.

-Chris Hein

oi!

You mean why is there no sparring in your Aikido. :D

Chuck Clark
05-17-2005, 01:11 PM
I agree with Mark. Chris, you need to get outside of your own style/groups and experience what many other people are doing and have been doing for many, many years.

AsimHanif
05-17-2005, 03:08 PM
I thought the idea was for nage to stay "soft" or calm under all circumstances- not (necessarily) uke.

DustinAcuff
05-17-2005, 03:16 PM
lol. if you want unpredictable resistance then just train with the newbie for a while. just kidding. Chris you have a point about not training for or against resistance, but we train that way so that we can become proficient with the movements. After you know the movement well enough to be able to do it correctly fairly often we DO add resistance. As for sparring, we call that "mulitple attackers" at my dojo. Anything is legal. If you want the best training possible, start training your aikido at a MMA/Cagefighting/Muai Thai/BJJ school. You will get beat up for a while, but if you reallly understand what you are doing soon you will be throwing everyone there. Sparring is an idea I dont like because it uses pads, rules, etc. If you want some really good training then get a job as a bouncer for a while.

Like Chuck said, train outside your normal place, go find other places. Think outside the box.

Ketsan
05-17-2005, 03:52 PM
*Sparring: (I know lots of people will have confusion about my usage of this word.) I mean sparring in the since that you would see in in a competitive sport martial art school.


I don't see why sparring is competitive. No-one wins or looses and the aim isn't to see who's best, it's there to practice techniques in a more free form format than kata allows. As someone said about Karate "punching into thin air can only teach so much". In the same way chucking a co-operative uke can only teach so much. I mean kata work, which is what Aikido largely is, can teach you perfect technique in a perfect envoironment. Reality, however, isn't perfect but we can prepare ourselves better for it by sparring. In that setting uke may not be co-operating with my technique but he is co-operating with my training. I need my partner to fight back to help improve my technique, to help me translate kata work into real world and for that I require his co-operation.
I honestly don't think that there is such thing as unco-operative training because as soon as it ceases to be co-operative it also ceases to be training.

ChrisHein
05-17-2005, 04:56 PM
I do train regularly in MMA. Thats why I'm asking Aikidoka why they don't spar more. I don't believe I've ever seen an Aikido school do what I would call sparring. The most intense I've ever seen Aikido schools get would be under Seagal sensei, but that is still defiantly not sparring.

Alex,
That is a great post! And my sentiments exactly. I do believe in non competitive, yet resistive training, I think we should all do it!

I mean kata work, which is what Aikido largely is, can teach you perfect technique in a perfect environment. Reality

Thats the point I was getting at, you seldom get perfect environment, so you should diversify your training.

-Chris Hein

Charles Hill
05-17-2005, 08:48 PM
It has been my experience that in Aikido dojo (without formal randori) practice against resistance does happen. It is after a certain period of time when a practitioner gets to a certain level and develops good relationships with his/her dojo mates. I never resist partners whom I cannot trust and I often do resist those whom I do trust and whom I like. This is the only way, in my opinion, to do freer practice without formally setting up resistance practice. If someone says in a critical way that there is no resistance training in Aikido, I wonder if that person may not have dojo mates that like and trust him.

Charles

ChrisHein
05-17-2005, 09:19 PM
Fair enuff,
I would say that Aikido never prepaired me for people actually resisting me in real time, with real intention. Maybe it's because people don't trust me, and here I thought I was well liked :)

-Chris Hein

eyrie
05-17-2005, 09:46 PM
I think you need to define "sparring". To me "sparring" means trading kicks and punches to score points. i.e. a game of tag. What do you mean by "sparring"?

stuartjvnorton
05-17-2005, 10:34 PM
What if they resist softly, as in an "escape" or passive counter?
Move so that they keep balance or move the dead spot you're looking for?

eyrie
05-17-2005, 10:51 PM
Stuart has hit the nail on the head (love your avatar BTW)... there are varying degrees of resistance. I think what Chris means (correct me if I'm wrong), and what most people mean when they say "fully resistant", is when uke stops in the middle of the attack and does nothing (i.e. stops giving).

In which case, the answer is to "soften" them up... pun intended.

ChrisHein
05-18-2005, 03:07 AM
Well, Actually where I was going was to get rid of the roles of uke and nage all together. Not always, but in some occasional sparring. Sparring dose not in any way refer only to trading kicks and Punch's (a game of tag is a great way to put it by the way!!). Google defined sparring as: "A form of martial arts training in which two opponents face one another and simulate actual combat." I mean that you get rid of the basic roles we always play, and you attempt to gain martial advantage over your partner. You resists and do what ever you like to attempt to control the other. This dose not have to be competitive, it's a mutual exercise to help each other gain in ability! Ego tends to get in the way, but ego is something we should be working on anyways, so it's yet another exercise in development. Instead of hiding behind our ideals, we should be trying to grow by what ever means possible!

-Chris Hein

grondahl
05-18-2005, 03:43 AM
Chris
The way you describe what kind of sparring that you want in Aikido sounds to me very much as the same thing as PeterR always writes about Shodokan randori (not Shiai).
So maybe it already exists in aikido, even though itīs not in your aikido.

Itīs not in mine either, at least not in class.

happysod
05-18-2005, 03:50 AM
Chris, I'm still a bit unsure on how vigorous the sparring you advocate is. We often train from 50-50 situations where the attacker starts as just a dead weight then ramp it up to the point where if the attacker can see an opportunity to "win" they take it, is this what you mean?

Otherwise, all I can think of is our one-on-one randori where the only difference between attacker and defender is the defender should be at least trying to use something vaguely recognizable out of our aikido arsenal whereas the attacker is only limited by what they're willing to take a fall from (if they fail)

Dazzler
05-18-2005, 07:37 AM
So my question Is why don't more Aikidoka practice against resistive attacks. Why is there not really any sparring* in Aikido.

-Chris Hein

*Sparring: (I know lots of people will have confusion about my usage of this word.) I mean sparring in the since that you would see in in a competitive sport martial art school.

Hi Chris

My feeling is that such practice is not widely used since it is not considered useful for development of ki.

MMA training is top rate stuff and promotes some fine athletes who are excellent at the physical side of martial arts.

Most of the ones I've met or seen (but not all) show some top qualities as human beings too so arguably there is some spiritual development too.

I'm a bit of a fan of MMA I confess.

However, I dont think this style of practice is necessarily the best for street self defence for instance..it is simply the best for MMA.

My point is that training is specifically targeted at the goal or aim that you have in mind.

If your aim is to use aikido in MMA then sure, it needs to tested with more resisting opponents.

If it isn't then maybe this isnt necessary.

I don't see the primary aim of aikido as developing the skills for this type of competition.

Of course with a bit of adaptation...it could be adjusted to do so.

FWIW

Cheers

D

eyrie
05-18-2005, 09:10 AM
Well, Actually where I was going was to get rid of the roles of uke and nage all together. Not always, but in some occasional sparring. Sparring dose not in any way refer only to trading kicks and Punch's (a game of tag is a great way to put it by the way!!). Google defined sparring as: "A form of martial arts training in which two opponents face one another and simulate actual combat." I mean that you get rid of the basic roles we always play, and you attempt to gain martial advantage over your partner. You resists and do what ever you like to attempt to control the other. This dose not have to be competitive, it's a mutual exercise to help each other gain in ability! Ego tends to get in the way, but ego is something we should be working on anyways, so it's yet another exercise in development. Instead of hiding behind our ideals, we should be trying to grow by what ever means possible!

-Chris Hein

Ah... what you are alluding to is kaeshi-waza, where roles of uke and nage are reversed and interchangeable, and henka-waza, chaining techniques.

Well, since attack and defense are 2 sides of the same coin, all moves can be countered and reversed - if you know how. But what you are suggesting by "resisting" and "attempting to control" is an incorrect analogy - certainly not in the ideal sense of "aiki".

In [the] jujitsu [I do], there is no such thing as "resistance". If nage botches the technique (or attempts to use force), uke can reverse the technique by "flowing" into a reversal technique. Likewise, if uke "resists" by standing there or attempting to prevent nage from applying the technique, we let them do so, and flow into the next technique.

Why should aiki be any different? One can get the same quality of practice by working on [the true meaning of] ukemi rather than actively "resisting" nage's technique.

mj
05-18-2005, 09:57 AM
Toshu randori is the Shodokan version, 2 people trying to apply waza on each other full force and full resistance. (full force may mean different things to different people, no weapons are used in toshu)

We also have 3 versions where we have a 'designated' attacker using a (safe) tanto:-

kakari-geiko (very light, no resistance)
hikitate-geiko (uke will only allow himself to be thrown if he feels the waza is fairly good)
randori (no-one is going down for anything, uke may avoid, counter and attack at will - as may nage)

cguzik
05-18-2005, 11:25 AM
An interesting question for people who practice at schools that do not delinate these levels of resistance is: what happens when you make a mistake?

I have trained people who, when I make a mistake as tori, (a) will just stand there and look at me, (b) will actively initiate a counter, (c) will continue the original attack or follow with a second strike, and (d) will back away and stop. Oh yes, and then there is (e) just fall down anyway.

I think how one defines and understands resistance in a dynamic situation has to do with which of these responses one considers most appropriate in a martial training situation.

Chris

ChrisHein
05-18-2005, 11:46 AM
I've never seen Shodokan Aikido, and would like to see a video of it's randori.
What I'm talking about is not revolutionary, and maybe some schools do practice it, but it seems to me that the Aikido community at large doesn't really get the concept of practicing against what you may likely face. You will likely never gain the real world ability to relax and adapt to an attack, by only practicing Kata and jiyuwaza.

The Kaishi waza that Ignatius Teo is talking about, is in general the way I take ukemi now. Never resisting, but flowing into spots that nage is not aware are open. Never directly fighting anything, but takeing advantage of any uncontrolled spot. This to me would be the ideal of how an Aikidoka would deal with real confrintation. However this ability will likely never be developed by only practiceing in a calm and non resistive enviroment. If you are uncomfortable with resistance, it will make you freeze up, an you're ability to relax will come to a close. You must make yourself comfortable with people attacking you for real. I believe that this is the advantage of sports martial arts. Because everyone wants to win, they are always trying their techniques against full resistance, even better the resistance of trained people who are very difficult to deal with. The down side to sport competitive martial arts is often their is a lack of self development, and a large amount of ego feeding, and macho bullshit that has no place in a Dojo. It also has a tendency to break the skills of a martial artist down to a game, which will slowly but surely degrade the effectiveness of the techniques in real wold application. I would like to see more non-cooperative, noncompetitive sparring in Aikido, at least in the yudansha.


I would really like to see some Tomiki also. I read a book about it once but I can't find a school here on the west coast. I don't think the Shiai is what I'm talking about but I'd like to see it, anyone know where I can get a video of that?

-Chris Hein

Chris Birke
05-18-2005, 12:41 PM
I was going to write a description of the knife randori that I've seen, but I couldn't. Every time it got lewd. That black rubber "knife" is too much :D.

Regardless, I honestly think it's excellent! Mostly I base this off the low average success rate of the unarmed participant.

cguzik
05-18-2005, 12:46 PM
I have trained people who, when I make a mistake as tori,

Correction:

That should have said "I have trained with people".

pezalinski
05-18-2005, 12:57 PM
I'd love to have a class that focused on nothing but kaeshi-waza and henka-waza! All techniques have a counter move - - the "cost" of that counter may result in the uke taking damage (i.e., actual injuries); if the cost of a counter move is low or null, I'd consider that to be a good point for a kaeshi-waza response....

We should strive to practice "active resistance"as uke: there is not just one attack per encounter - uke is striving to take any advantage s/he can (reasonably) get during a technique, to show Nage where the "holes" are in their technique. That's a standard operating procedure at our dojo.

Akira Tohei Shihan often said, "Touch - same as hit; Hit - same as kill." That is to say, if uke can touch or hit the nage during a technique (with their free hand/foot/head/etc.), it's an indication that the technique has some flaws in it's execution.

We also practice kaeshi-waza and henka-waza in our advanced Aikido classes, and "on our own" during free-practice periods. It's this principal of "active resistance" taken to a higher level. In this kind of activity, there is no uke or nage -- just like-minded aikidoka at play. (The "touch/hit" rule applies throughout the encounter.)
It's a great way of training for good technique, but requires both partners to be highly aware of when they are in a position of "significant disadvantage" that means that they cannot reverse the technique without self-induced injuries; at this point, they tap-out. They must both recognize the damage-danger-point, and disengage. "Staying soft" allows them to communicate through their bodies as to what the current status of the encounter may be.

Think of kittens at play -- the claws are out, but they shouldn't be penetrating too deeply (or someone isn't playing fair). :p

Note: you cannot train a beginner to do this -- they don't have the vocabulary yet. Advanced students seem to pick up on the "touch/hit" form of communications, and at some point, add kaeshi-waza and henka-waza into the mix when the spirit is right.

So, Chris, if you're not there yet, you're obviously getting closer to that point... you just need to find a like-minded "sparring" partner. :D

Chuck Clark
05-18-2005, 02:45 PM
Note: you cannot train a beginner to do this -- they don't have the vocabulary yet.

Beginners can begin to learn this in the way they're taught posture, movement, ukemi, recovery of posture, etc.from day one of their experience in the dojo. These are the tools that need to be in place to begin to understand and cultivate the ability to do kaeshi waza, henka waza, renraku waza, etc. These all add up to the ideal of takemusu aiki waza.

jester
05-18-2005, 05:38 PM
The problem I see is not in the Idea of being "soft", it's in the idea of training this concept. While it's true that most beginners need to focus on being sensitive, and relaxing, and should be kept at a very slow pace. Advanced Aikidoka seldom leave this generally relaxed environment with their practice of their Aikido. They may speed up the practice, ask for harder attacks, and even practice regular jiyuwaza, but they are still leaving themselves completely untrained with respects to real resistance. By never practicing your technique against resistive opponents, you are short siding yourself. When you actually meet a resistive attack in real confrontation, you are likely to freeze up, and not respond, you will lose the "softness", you've been training!
So my question Is why don't more Aikidoka practice against resistive attacks. Why is there not really any sparring* in Aikido.

-Chris Hein

I agree with Chuck.

Chris, the way I learned techniques is that uke always does a particular thing after he is off balanced. Tomiki Aikido has 17 basic techniques. In each technique, uke reacts from his off balance in a different way. When learning these techniques, uke always does the same reaction for that particular technique. That way your subconscious knows what it should feel like, and when something changes, you can go into the appropriate reaction.

You never want to MAKE a technique work. If uke is uncooperative when practicing the basics, that particular technique will probably never work. You just do something else. There is no what if, only what is. Adjust to what IS happening, and you will not use more strength.

I would think that if you try a technique and don't realize when it is a failure, you will end up using more power to make it work.

Karl Geis always says "Nothing ever works". You always adapt to the scenario and don't try to make something happen because there are to many things that can go wrong.

Uke plays an important role in this, and he has to know what reaction is appropriate for the technique your working on.

Knowing when a technique is a failure, is very very very important.

ChrisHein
05-18-2005, 06:37 PM
I hate this medium!!! Or I hate my ability to make myself clear! hahaha eather way...

-Chris Hein

Chuck Clark
05-18-2005, 07:16 PM
Uke plays an important role in this, and he has to know what reaction is appropriate for the technique your working on.


Of course, this is in kata, which is a prearranged learning tool. Eventually you must learn to feel and be sensitive to human actions to recover their balance. It is actually very predictable since we're bipeds. Through the connection (ki musubi) we know what our uke is doing and where they'll step next and we fit our waza to those recovery actions. This is why training systems need a "feedback loop" that is not programmed. Randori or sparring serves this purpose. Randori in my mind means to take something of form out of chaos.

Staying connected, making intuitive, creative decisions on the go while controlling the initiative and taking part in waza that solves problems is juicy practice.

DustinAcuff
05-18-2005, 07:52 PM
Chris, I cant say for certian that unless uke and nage are attacking full speed that you will be happy, but it could be the way we are communicating. If you are intrested I am in Visalia, about 40 min south of Fresno, and could give you directions to us. I can't promise that you will be happy with what you see, but so far nobody has complained about the way we do things. If you are intrested/moderately intrested then send me an email, private message, or just post, and i'll give you any information that you want. We are reality based and have a number of officers/prison guards and sensei was a Marine, cop, and bouncer for the last 20 years, so we get top notch training.

One thing to keep in mind, resistance has unexpected consequences, everything from nage falling on uke.

jester
05-18-2005, 09:53 PM
Of course, this is in kata, which is a prearranged learning tool. Eventually you must learn to feel and be sensitive to human actions to recover their balance. It is actually very predictable since we're bipeds. Through the connection (ki musubi) we know what our uke is doing and where they'll step next and we fit our waza to those recovery actions. This is why training systems need a "feedback loop" that is not programmed. Randori or sparring serves this purpose. Randori in my mind means to take something of form out of chaos.

Your reading my mind Chuck!

Did you train in Houston? If so what type of randori were they doing back then? What you described is exactly what the randori I've done accomplishes. Randori and Kata both serve different functions, but are both a necessary part of training.

In my opinion without learning the kata, you will never fully understand the intricacies within the techniques. Without the randori, you won't learn to improvise and flow into things.

xuzen
05-19-2005, 12:18 AM
Chris Hein wrote:
...<snip>... By never practicing your technique against resistive opponents, you are short selling yourself. When you actually meet a resistive attack in real confrontation, you are likely to freeze up, and not respond, you will lose the "softness", that you've been training!
-Chris Hein

Chris,

From your post, I know you advocate resistant and vigour in one's MA training. This is a good Endeavour; however I think you are a lost puppy barking up the wrong tree.

Many folks here and millions of Aikido practitioner in this modern age are your average Joe and Joan who has got a regular 9 - 5 jobs. To train to be effective basing on your standards, mean they will have to do it full- time, professionally with proper coach etc. That is what the MMA fellows have at their disposal... full time and pro coach.

If you are such a big fan of MMA competition, there are specific MMA forum which you can find more like minded people to share your thoughts.

To be effective on the street is simple, train like you are fighting on a street. Having said that, such training is no fun, it is dangerous to a normal Joe and Joan whom injury means a loss to their livelihood/routine.

Think about the normal people, after a hard days work, dragging their tired ass off to a dojo is chore enough, asking them to do full contact type training? Such dojo will not be very attractive IMO... Let's talk reality here Chris, forget about your romantic notion of super-fighter wannabee attitude.

Being from a school which does not have competition, maybe you feel you have something missing in your MA pursuit, then try Tomiki-ryu. Those folks do contact full resistant randori competition. There is always something for everyone.

So my question is why more Aikidoka don't practice against resistive attacks. Why is there not really any sparring* in Aikido
Because we don't have to. Folks who want to compete have so many different arts to choose from... Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, TKD, Karate etc... Some of us folks here see aikido as an avenue to study budo, some see it as a form of shugyo, personal development, a hobby, an alternate and healthy lifestyle to our mundane 9 -5 desk-job. So again, I reiterate, you are a lost puppy who is barking at the wrong tree. To make it clearer just in case you are not sure what I mean... there are MMA specific forum where you can find more like minded people like yourself.

An analogy: There are amateur guitarists who learn it to play for fun and for self satisfaction. There also pro guitarist who does it for a living like the legend Jimmy Hendrix. Maybe you want to be a Jimmy Hendrix in the MA way, which is fine. It should also be fine for people who want to only learn it for personal enjoyment. You can't criticize them for staying as amateur.

Just to digress, just recently one of my dojo lads, an 18 y/o, 160 cm, 50 kg young shodan successfully defeated three bullies/extortionist entirely on his own at school when those bullies tried to extort money from my dojo lad. He refused; they ganged up on him. He applied his dojo knowledge on that situation. When we asked him further... he said it was just like the routine san nin dori jiyu waza we do in our normal class. You said jiyu waza is an ineffective learning tool for street use? Think again.

Boon.

P/S: This post is in respond to your thread and how I interpret what you mean. If should I interpret it incorrectly from what you tried to actually mean, I apologize in advance.

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 12:41 AM
GO XU! I agree completely!

These techniques have been around relatively unchanged for 1300 years. These techniques were developed by samurai for samurai for use against samurai (who all had extensive jujitsu training) on the battlefield. When the samurai A was using these techniques, it meant he was unarmed, and facing a sword weilding opponent. Later they transitioned into the palaces of the Aizu clan as well as the battlefield. A trained unarmed woman, who was physically no match for a samurai, could defend the palace in a time of need. These training methods and techniques have evolved for over 1000 years, are still alive and kicking, and truely hold the claim of the only onces based entirely on human anatomy. Ju-jitsu breaks stuff because it breaks that way. These techniques, in pure form, break stuff because of the relationship of tendons, ligaments, and bones.

During the last era of the samurai there were many schools who fought for survival. We are still here, and have never been defeated. These techniques have had 1300 years of life and death testing where the practitioners life depended on these techniques working better than any others. Kano sensei bowed to this. O Sensei killed somewhere around 200 men in duels while developing aikido. Takeda sensei killed closer to 800. Kano used a Daito-trained student to push his judo. If you are reciving bad training that you believe to be ineffective, your dojo has either lost sight of the warrior roots of where we came from or you are missing some huge pieces of the puzzle.

Bronson
05-19-2005, 12:55 AM
O Sensei killed somewhere around 200 men in duels while developing aikido.

I have not heard this before. Can you cite a reference for this?

Bronson

ChrisHein
05-19-2005, 01:08 AM
Xu Wenfung,
I don't' know why your apologizing, and I don't know why you're calling me a lost puppy. I was under the impression that this is a place where fellow Aikidoka can discuss issues concerning Aikido. Maybe indeed I should go somewhere else if the notion of some new ideas cause so much anger from you. MMA schools have completely different atmosphere then Aikido Schools. If you look back at some of my posts you might see that this is what I'm alluding to in my desire to make Aikido stronger and more applicable. Most people involved in MMA don't desire self development as much as they just want a victory. I like the Ideals set forth in the Aikido community, but I see lots of people trying to hide from their ideals and would rather belong to a reenactment group. I believe the Aikido community needs these sorts of discussions, just look at some of the more popular threads on here "dose Aikido work" "Defending against Aikido" "Challenges in Aikido" etc etc. Apparently this community you describe isn't too tired, and wore out from work to be concerned with things like martial effectiveness. Most of my students who are "hard core"(meaning the train in all of my class's and train with great enthusiasm) are regular 9-5 dudes, who work all day, then come to my class, and would be totally pissed at me if I didn't fully work them out, and give them 100% of my knowledge of practical effective technique. I think if anyone is barking up the wrong tree it's you my friend. Lot's of people are interested in training in a manor that I would prescribe, and are looking for this exactly. I think the mere fact that you had such a strong reaction to this post is a suggestion that you yourself are not happy with your training. Budo, is about giving 100% and not making excuses.

-Chris Hein

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 01:12 AM
I cannot site anything other than word of mouth for the actual kills, but it is not a jump in logic. The numbers are purely what I remember from what I have read/heard, I could be wrong about the number. O Sensei is reported to have been in numerous duels. These are refrenced in most of the books out there. At that particular time duels were still to the death as most samurai traditions were alive and well in the martial arts. He won every duel. Had he lost, we would not have had an O Sensei, just a talented youth who bit off more than he could chew.

From personal accounts of his students, he had a world class temper until he had white hair. We tend to think of O Sensei in terms of his last decade of life, not the vibrant youth who fought in the WWs, who did all the work that led to the O Sensei we all revere.

ChrisHein
05-19-2005, 01:22 AM
I might be wrong, but I believe Miyamoto Musashi only had 69 confurmed kills in dules, and Musashi was considerd quite a bringer of death, I dont' have this same feeling about O-sensei.

-Chris Hein

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 01:35 AM
Musashi was not in the same period or situation. From what I have gathered from my reading on the internet (and I CANNOT be wrong, everything on the internet IS true - lol) martial arts were kind of competing for survival with challenges between schools being very frequent, especially when a new teacher or a new art came to town. I've heard (from the all knowing internet) that there could have been a few hundred schools of jujitsu alive around this time. The number is quite feasable, especially concidering O Sensei was one of Takeda's better students.

But again, I am throwing out what I understand to be the case, anyone who disagrees or has evidence otherwise is welcome to disagree/correct me.

maikerus
05-19-2005, 02:32 AM
On the other hand...

There *may* be something missing with the MMA ideal. I have no idea since I don't train seriously in any other martial art and aside from a few classes/seminars/friends here and there I have been pretty engrossed in Yoshinkan Aikido for the last 21 years.

The thing that strikes me coming from my background is that there seems to be a lack of trust in the training. Its not a fast path to learn to be subtle and blending as opposed to hard and fast, but ultimately I think most of us on this forum believe it to be a good goal.

The Japanese system that developed the kata form of training did so because training "for real" meant that people would "really" get killed or maimed. I can't imagine wanting to train "for real" in a traditional dojo because the tools that would prevent injuries would not be there. They needed to build a method of teaching the body the movements that work, without having to kill a whole bunch of uke's to do it.

Once the basic kata form was understood and the technical aspects of techniques studied, they moved on to make it more and more physically challenging...still using kata but moving on to build mental toughness or perhaps mental strength through excessive and huge amounts of physical training. (I used the word spirit in another thread and got dissed, so I won't say that again, although those that know do know :) ) At this stage you get to really know and understand your body and how it works in relation to others. So that if something requiring "Aikido" happens then you can trust your body to do the right thing...

Let me say that again...so that you can trust your body to do the right thing.

And perhaps to elaborate...if you can trust your training to train your body to do the right thing then maybe it doesn't matter if you just do Aikido. I think you see where I am going with this...

If you don't trust your training then go do some MMA stuff...but don't say that it's because Aikido doesn't prepare you for "real fighting".

That being said, there are places where they train "for real" and where they can be killed if they make a mistake. That's what they choose to do and the elite military training that they do in shotgun alley and other realistic situations have an "acceptable" level of risk. However, if even one person in my dojo was maimed or killed, I think that that would kind of be a catastrophe.

One other point...I find it annoying when people say "Train for Real" and then don't get hurt. How can it be real if you aren't defending your life, your family, your beliefs. Even Pride and these other MMA events have rules...my understanding is that there are none in a real confrontation.

FWIW...

--Michael

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 02:46 AM
Just a philosphical question: who understands the value of life more than the one who has taken it?

PeterR
05-19-2005, 04:12 AM
I cannot site anything other than word of mouth for the actual kills, but it is not a jump in logic. The numbers are purely what I remember from what I have read/heard, I could be wrong about the number. O Sensei is reported to have been in numerous duels. These are refrenced in most of the books out there. At that particular time duels were still to the death as most samurai traditions were alive and well in the martial arts. He won every duel. Had he lost, we would not have had an O Sensei, just a talented youth who bit off more than he could chew.

From personal accounts of his students, he had a world class temper until he had white hair. We tend to think of O Sensei in terms of his last decade of life, not the vibrant youth who fought in the WWs, who did all the work that led to the O Sensei we all revere.
Dustin;

I think you're letting your imagination run away with you. I suggest some of the articles at AikidoJournal for history. Ueshiba M. fought no to the death duels and did not fight in either of the WW's.

mj
05-19-2005, 04:48 AM
Just a philosphical question: who understands the value of life more than the one who has taken it?
The man who doesn't take it, obviously.

katsujinken

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 12:03 PM
as always, i could be quite wrong, i'll checkout more info on the journals and other places and see what i can come up with. thanks!

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 06:18 PM
btw, the place I got O Sensei being in the WWs was something I read in the history of aikido and nature..something like that, where it mentioned he was a fairly decorated officer and later mentioned the mysterious little flying balls of intent that let him dodge bullets in combat.
The O sensei head count was from someone i know, the logic made sense at the time.

PeterR
05-19-2005, 07:48 PM
OK Dustin - please read this one (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~aikido/htmls/hist.html) first. It's by his son and a very good starting point.

ChrisHein
05-20-2005, 03:33 AM
This thread quickly went from: The possabilitys and Ideas of training to stay practically non resistive in a confrintation. To, Did O-sensei kill 6000 death ninjas on a beach as a bomb was being droped. Staying on track is cleary not one of our strong points!!! hahahahahah :) :) :)

-Chris Hein

Chris Birke
05-21-2005, 02:52 AM
Here we go!

http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~siba/index11.htm

mj
05-21-2005, 05:22 AM
That site has a low bandwidth limit, if you link to it directly it will run out very quickly.

Chris Birke
05-21-2005, 01:06 PM
Well can someone mirror? I had no idea about the bandwidth limit.