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Mary Eastland
05-17-2005, 07:29 AM
In "the women and baby thread" I thought I noticed an attitude that Aikido training is nice for women but they can't really ever learn to defend themselves. So what do you as an instructor or student think about this?

And if you are an instructor and you don't believe that women can ever learn to defend themselves, how can you help to instill the feeling that they could?

I think a lot of men think that they could overtake a woman just because she is a women. I don't mean this to become a men vs women thread, I am just interested if people have really ever thought about this and why they believe it.

In my college history class my professor laughed and said " Do you really believe you could defend yourself against me?" I just smiled and said maybe. But I knew I could. He really had no idea of another side of me.
Mary

rob_liberti
05-17-2005, 07:49 AM
In "the women and baby thread" I thought I noticed an attitude that Aikido training is nice for women but they can't really ever learn to defend themselves. So what do you as an instructor or student think about this?Umm... Well...I don't mean to pick on you here, but to answer the question, as an instructor, I think that you "noticed" things that were not there. (Not on the first 14 posts on that thread, anyway.)

It's hard enough to protect yourself with both hands free. If you think you can protect a baby in a sling while being attacker, you must move REALLY well, male or female.

And if you are an instructor and you don't believe that women can ever learn to defend themselves, how can you help to instill the feeling that they could? Given the suposition, I would say that you shouldn't do that. I actually think Women can defend themselves, so it's not too dificult to defend my point of view. I recently did that on aikiweb about a month or two ago.

I think a lot of men think that they could overtake a woman just because she is a women. I don't mean this to become a men vs women thread, I am just interested if people have really ever thought about this and why they believe it.I am a little brother. I have YEARS of experience with being the smaller, weaker, and _most unfortunately_ the "dumber" role of the two combatants. If your martial skill set relative to the other person isn't sufficient to overcome the inequalities, you are in trouble. Men are generally bigger and stronger than women, and are have a major socialization factor in their favor. Can it be overcome? Absolutely.

Rob

Dazzler
05-17-2005, 08:04 AM
In "the women and baby thread" I thought I noticed an attitude that Aikido training is nice for women but they can't really ever learn to defend themselves. So what do you as an instructor or student think about this?

And if you are an instructor and you don't believe that women can ever learn to defend themselves, how can you help to instill the feeling that they could?

I think a lot of men think that they could overtake a woman just because she is a women. I don't mean this to become a men vs women thread, I am just interested if people have really ever thought about this and why they believe it.

In my college history class my professor laughed and said " Do you really believe you could defend yourself against me?" I just smiled and said maybe. But I knew I could. He really had no idea of another side of me.
Mary

I think you need some salt to go with that chip! ;)

Seriously Mary...I can't see anything sexist in the posts.

Generally I believe a good big 'un will beat a good little 'un regardless of gender.

Introduce weapons of any type and a no rules situation and that theory goes out of the window. anyone can 'win', men or women.

Sure women can be dangerous - Give them a car and they are positively lethal :D (sorry sorry sorry - couldn't resist it)

D

bbleeker
05-17-2005, 08:30 AM
Of course we can defend ourselves. But it depends: what woman against what man? If my sensei wanted to mop the floor with me, I'd not stand a snowflake's chance in Hell; but thinking of my male colleagues, for example, I don't think I would have any problem defending myself against most of them, in the improbable case they'd want to attack me.

paw
05-17-2005, 09:01 AM
And if you are an instructor and you don't believe that women can ever learn to defend themselves, how can you help to instill the feeling that they could?

You might consider getting them to fight for something other than themselves, something bigger than themselves.

If you've been watching "The Contender" a number of the boxers were motivated by their desire to support their family, that's what pushed them throught the pain...not the idea that they, as a boxer, were an unstoppable badass.


Regards,

Paul

ruthmc
05-17-2005, 09:25 AM
Can women defend themselves?

You betcha! There have been plenty of occasions where women have defended themselves and their children against attackers of both the human and animal variety, sometimes with superhuman strength and resourcefulness.

Any woman who is concerned that she may not have the skills can always go to a good self defence course to learn them (mental and physical), as can any man.

Those who believe that women are defenceless creatures are very much in the minority these days :)

Ruth

ian
05-17-2005, 09:58 AM
I think the confusion often arises when people see martial arts or self-defence through the light of competition. Women are generally physically weaker and less resistant to pain, thus it is usually the case that men and women can't compete on an equal footing in fighting.

However real self-defence is a completely different matter. The person doesn't know what you are going to do. There is a massive psychological context, and the benefit of a trained reaction can help anyone, regardless of their physique (you sometimes hear of old women fending off attackers with an umbrella; I suggest it is often the suprise of the vigorous response of the 'victim' that takes the attacker off guard.) Also there isn't a set time for starting the 'match' - a rapid response to an attacker is often a suprise.

Whatever self-defence you do, no matter who you are, it won't make you unbeatable. The objective is to IMPROVE your chances, thus, as long as you are better off than not having done the training, the training has some use. I fully believe women CAN become effective at self-defence, even against quite ruthless attackers with much more strength. However they are unlikely to ever win an utlimate fighting competition!

Mary Eastland
05-17-2005, 10:04 AM
[
. However they are unlikely to ever win an utlimate fighting competition![/QUOTE]

Lol......like I would ever enter one. :)
Mary

happysod
05-17-2005, 10:05 AM
Mary, I think you're being too gender-specific. I've met (and taught) quite a few people of both sexes who I've wonder whether they'll ever survive a violent encounter if they had to fight rather than manage to evade. It's not that they're cowards or wimps, in fact their own philosophy on life scares me and I couldn't bring myself to follow it, they just seem incapable of violence, even the nice "safe" type we use in the dojo.

Otherwise, if you're going into comparisons across the sexes, you'd have to first give me the stats of the two people you're comparing or I'd have to play the averages and make sweeping assumptions on size, strength, skill and experience involved. I'm with Darren on this, good big'un > good little'un, which sucks (says the shortarse..).

Ian, just read your "less resistent to pain", don't try telling this one if you're in the delivery room...

MikeLogan
05-17-2005, 10:07 AM
Women may be generally weaker, but using the word generally in terms of pain resistance? I've always heard that women have a deeper threshold for pain. Or was it men have a deeper threshold, women have a broader threshold. Or in other words, men can take a lot of pain for a little bit, and women can take less pain, but for much longer periods of time? I don't think it matters.

What matters is that both male and female bodies can do the movements, and it's the movements that defend that body. All the other factors are plusses and minuses; training helps us do the math.

mike.

Nick Simpson
05-17-2005, 10:26 AM
Not sure what the general consensus on which sex has the higher pain resistance but aside from childbirth which to be honest we cannot compare :p , I havent yet met a woman who had as high a pain tolerance as the majority of men I know (I have however met some very tough women). Then again, I know of some men with incredibly poor pain resistance. It all depends on the individual. To answer the original question: Some women can defend themselves, some cant. Exactly the same as some men can and some cant.

paw
05-17-2005, 10:35 AM
However they are unlikely to ever win an utlimate fighting competition!Lol......like I would ever enter one. :)
Mary

There have been all women MMA shows in the US (Extreme Challenge) and Japan (SmackGirls).

Regards,

Paul

Lorien Lowe
05-18-2005, 01:10 AM
...I havent yet met a woman who had as high a pain tolerance as the majority of men I know ....

Nick, you must never have been with any of those men when they're in the hospital with a kidney stone.

many men come into the hospital with an MI and can barely speak; on the other hand, I've heard more than one woman say, 'it hurts an awful lot, but it's nothing compared to childbirth.' It may be true that men tolerate sharp, traumatic pain (granted, the type most likely to be encountered in a fight), but given time I think that the women will start to out-tolerate men on average.

I also think that it's true that the larger combatant has an advantage over the smaller combatant given equal skill, but the fact is that the majority of vile attackers out there aren't trained in martial arts. Most probably think that a 'woman fighting back' is a woman who throws weak punches and/or scratches and/or tries to knee them in the groin. The pd at my university says that 4 out of 5 untrained women who are attacked (by a stranger) successfully fight off their assailants, and I think that training which increases a woman's skill and willingness to defend herself can only improve those odds.

-LK

Lorien Lowe
05-18-2005, 01:18 AM
I just did a quick read of the 'mothers with babies' thread; I didn't notice a bias. Was there a specific comment that raised your hackles?

-LK

RonRagusa
05-18-2005, 06:49 AM
Hi Lorien:

I did not notice a bias either. It was just a feeling I got when I read a couple of the replies. I wasn't 't being accusatory.

There is a prevailing thought about women defending themselves that says they shouldn't because they will end up getting hurt worse. I am not saying that the people on the thread were saying that. It just occurred to me that maybe people believe this and don't even know why.

It seems to be such a tricky subject. Whenever I talk about it on here some folks think I have chip on my shoulder and I don't. I am very interested and must come across as hostile.

Or maybe guys are just used to being attacked around this subject and think that any discussion about it comes from an angry place.
Mary

rob_liberti
05-18-2005, 06:54 AM
In "the women and baby thread" I thought I noticed an attitude that Aikido training is nice for women but they can't really ever learn to defend themselves.
Maybe it is just the _way_ you talk about it...

Rob

Nick Simpson
05-18-2005, 07:15 AM
" Nick, you must never have been with any of those men when they're in the hospital with a kidney stone. "

Nope Lorien, never been there nor had a kidney stone myself (which is something im happy about :) ).

Forgive the lack of medical abbreviation knowledge, but what does MI stand for? Multiple injury?

Anyways, I included the childbirth scenario and I agree that it must be a horrendous physical and mental trauma to go through and that it will bring a fair amount of pain too (prolly an understatement!). I also said that we will never know as we cannot compare due to the obvious physical differences in the sexes. My answer to sum up was:

" It all depends on the individual. "

Not: All men have higher pain resistance than all women.

Im only basing my statement on my own experiance, which is based on a majority of accidents and/or fighting injuries. In these cases I have witnessed/been a part of, the men involved/myself, have had a higher pain tolerance than the women involved.

Ron Tisdale
05-18-2005, 08:11 AM
I believe Miocardial infarction ???? MI

basically, what we commoners call a heart attack...

RT

Lorien Lowe
05-18-2005, 01:21 PM
Ron is correct: myocardial infarction, blockage of an artery feeding the heart.

It's also nearly always the men who pass out for a blood draw. Teenage girls will pass out sometimes, too, but not from watching someone else be a patient like men sometimes do.

Mary, I agree that that attitude does occur - one rarely hears from a male police officer, for instance, that most of the time fighting back will discourage an attacker enough for the victim to get away. A lot of men don't seem to understand that rape psychologically closer to castration for a woman than it is to sex. But I didn't pick up on it in the baby thread - maybe because I'm not a maternal type, have never had kids, and don't intend to. I can only imagine carrying an infant as being like, as someone suggested, carrying a box of eggs of incredible value, that one can't put down or allow to be hit, crushed, torn, or whatever. It *seems* like it would be an incredible handicap for an otherwise able woman.

-LK

Ron Tisdale
05-18-2005, 02:02 PM
It's also nearly always the men who pass out for a blood draw. Teenage girls will pass out sometimes, too, but not from watching someone else be a patient like men sometimes do.

Huh! I just leave the room! :) And please don't even mention the N word [Needle]...

RT

maikerus
05-18-2005, 06:49 PM
I havent yet met a woman who had as high a pain tolerance as the majority of men I know

Just remembering from my psych university days where I studied Sensation and Perception...

1. I remember one or two studies that show statistically that women have a higher pain tolerance than men in controlled situations. These tests were usually based on how long you could keep your arms in a bucket of ice water or something like that. Women lasted longer.

2. Statistically women complained outloud more during the test, while men toughed it out and said very little.

At a party one night - yes it was a bunch of psych people - we had our beer in a little plastic pool in the living room full of ice and water and cans of beers. We had spent the week going over some of the studies above so we thought we'd try it out and I and a couple of friends got down on our knees beside this pool, rolled up our shirtsleeves and stuck our arms in the water.

I'm not sure if its because we read the study or not, but when my male friend and I had had enough of this painful nonsense we made sure that we pulled our female friend out of the water at the same time...we didn't want to lose that particular battle of the sexes no matter what some study said :D

FWIW,

--Michael

Jeanne Shepard
05-18-2005, 07:07 PM
Hi Lorien:



There is a prevailing thought about women defending themselves that says they shouldn't because they will end up getting hurt worse. I am not saying that the people on the thread were saying that. It just occurred to me that maybe people believe this and don't even know why.
Mary

This USED to be believed, back when I first took so called "self defense." Now we are told that if you don't' resist, you will probably end up dead, and your best chances come from fighting back.

Jeanne :mad:

RonRagusa
05-18-2005, 07:16 PM
This USED to be believed, back when I first took so called "self defense." Now we are told that if you don't' resist, you will probably end up dead, and your best chances come from fighting back.

Jeanne :mad:

My feeling about this is that no one knows the answer except the person in the situation. The best strategy relies upon an unlimited set of responses. pg. 67 The Art of Peace
Mary

Don_Modesto
05-18-2005, 10:48 PM
My feeling about this is that no one knows the answer except the person in the situation. The best strategy relies upon an unlimited set of responses. pg. 67 The Art of Peace
Mary

Studies are largely inconclusive but are still useful for what they infer.

The FBI database on crime (sorry, forgot the name) doesn't indicate when in a criminal assault an injury occurs so the question as to whether injuries result from or motivate resistance will remain moot until it does.

What does seem pretty clear from studies of rape is 1) begging and/or telling your attacker you'll do whatever they want if they don't hurt you is the strategy most strongly associated with successful rape. 2) Successful resisters used a variety of strategies--reasoning, yelling, physical resistance, etc.

DaveO
05-19-2005, 06:45 AM
Back to the question at hand; I hear the question frequently.How much of a disadvantage are women at with their smaller size; lighter mass and bone structure?

Well; if you're fighting; then a lot. The average human male can both withstand and deliver a tremendous amount of punishment in a very short space of time - to be blunt; it's what we're built for. Overcoming the size difference can easily prove impossible in the short time provided by a physical fight.

BUT - we're not talking about fighting. We're talking about Self Defense. The two are not the same thing. They're not even remotely related. In a defense situation; or to be more precise in a violent assault, the very thing which limits a woman in a fight (her smaller size and mass) gives her a powerful advantage.

In my SD classes; I refer to what I teach as 'The School of Down'. The overall plan is 'Down And Out". Everything is down - the defender must strive to get down; to keep her feet on the ground, to keep her mass and inertia down. Then out - away from the attacker. SD is concerned with one thing only - escaping the attacker.
A woman's smaller size is a major advantage in this: Women tend (especially when trained) to be far quicker to acellerate and manoeuver than men. They can exploit holes, dodge and twist like lightning when compared to the bulkier, heavier half of the species. Their smaller mass gives them this advantage; and it's this quickness to exploit openings which is the most critical factor in the escape part of a defensive plan.

In the initial assault of course (and this is the downside); the size difference is a problem. In a typical assault the male will attempt to use his mass and inertia to overwhelm his victim. That's where training comes in - to be able to deal with the initial assault.

Psychologically; women have another advantage: The ability to go totally batsh*t on their attacker. I don't know how many times I've seen a woman go from kitten to wildcat in zero seconds flat when required. It's oft the butt of jokes and even more frequently thought of a something to be 'trained out' but frenzy really is the best defense in a violent assault - take the attacker off the initiative, set him back just long enough - a split second - to bolt.

So yes; women can defend themselves and can do so very well. But they can't think in 'fighting' terms for SD; that's suicide.

Cheers!

Dan Herak
05-19-2005, 08:18 AM
we're not talking about fighting. We're talking about Self Defense. The two are not the same thing.


This is exactly what I thought when I first came upon this thread. If the question who wins in a flat out punchfest with teeth knocked out, concussions and broken bones, then women will generally do poorly against most men. But if your concern is not to hurt the other person but just get out alive, that is another thing altogether. In many situations a simple tenkan or irimi movement may be enough to get out of the assailant's immediate line of attack and give one the second needed to run like hell. Of course this will not work all the time but it demonstrates the significant difference between fighting and self-defense.

Also, one of the more powerful uses of martial arts training is not necessarily the techniques per se , but the conditioning of training, such as being used to strikes coming at your face and the development of a mentality aware of dangers. If someone found him/herself in a rough situation and let out an ear piercing kiai to startle the assailant for just a moment and then used the moment to pick up a rock, throw it in the person's face and then run fast, well maybe there were no fancy martial arts techniques used. But maybe also the person being assaulted would not have thought to do that but for the training. In that instance, I would say the person did use their martial arts training for self-defense even if not manifested in a technical way recognized in the dojo.

SeiserL
05-19-2005, 08:27 AM
IMHO, yes women can defend themselves and do so quite nicely.

And yes, in my experience of treating rape victims and rapist, compliance and fear only feed the power and control ego. Fighting back anyway possible seems to be the only hope.

I am that bigger male. Too often, both men and women, think that because of my size they have to give me more, which plays into my advantage. Focus through me and be gentle. I have a problem with that on and off the mat.

MaryKaye
05-19-2005, 09:08 AM
Rather than worrying about men being bigger than women, which is only true in the aggregate, it would seem more useful to ask "How does a small person deal with a bigger one?" Most of us, of both genders, will be that smaller person in *some* interaction and it's good to know how to cope.

I'm taller and heavier than several of my male partners, but they don't let this discourage them...I don't see why I should either. (I'm a medium-sized person, which is nice because any given group of aikidoka usually offers me both bigger and smaller partners.)

I think that aikido training gives me tools which will help me defend myself if I need to, even though I'm not confident I could produce an actual technique. When we started practicing chokes from behind I was absolutely freaked to be grabbed that way. I struck a deal with the biggest guy in class: we'd grab each other from behind at random times during pre-class warmups. Now it's "Okay, he's got me again" followed by a practiced response.

A policewoman who had just come out of a fight with three college boys told me that in her experience, knowing you may get hit and accepting it calmly improves your chances greatly. I certainly started out being very afraid of being hit, and that's improved a lot. Took an atemi to the face at a seminar recently--ouch, but I didn't have any difficulty continuing.

(That particular woman was a good demonstration of how useless the generalizations about male and female capacities are. She was a big, strong, not very agile, highly aggressive person. People had tried to teach her evasion-based self-defense but she did a lot better with strength training.)

Mary Kaye

aikigirl10
05-19-2005, 02:22 PM
hi Mary.
I have been in aikido since i was eight and i find it very useful in defending myself. i recently started a new martial art back in september (as i have stated in other threads) and when i started i was already ahead of the game due to my aikido training. I am still a white belt in this martial art (shaolin in case ur wondering) and i have taken on grown men of higher rank and won. I find that aikido really helps w/my agility during fighting and also the speed w/my hands .

It all depends on how aggressive u are. I have also learned that u cant be afraid of anyone b/c if u are then they will easily overcome u. Take these things into consideration and u will find that women are just as good as men when it comes to martial arts. (Or any aspect for that matter)

Hope this helps you
Paige

JiuJitsuka
05-19-2005, 06:57 PM
"I think that aikido training gives me tools which will help me defend myself if I need to, even though I'm not confident I could produce an actual technique."

Hey Mary. IMHO in the first part of this statement you answered your own question, you just need to remove the "I think" part and replace it with "I know". Thats what its all about, your belief that your aikido training gives you the tools to defend yourself puts you ahead on the street. The other part of this statement is something that you need to work on within yourself. Your confidence, the belief in yourself, is the backbone of your technique. Paige hit it right on the button, you shouldn't be afraid, make fear one of your tools. Accept it and it will help you. Sorry for sounding like a preacher :rolleyes: . As for producing an actual technique, let the technique produce itself. You are not the one to determine what technique comes out, the attacker is the one who determines the technique. The one thing you need to remember is to Keep It Simple. This is law in self defense. Use what works. I don't mean to ramble or sound like a know it all, cuz I don't. :D I just become concerned when gender becomes an issue in self defense. I hope you find clarity. :)

Live Well,

Brian

xuzen
05-19-2005, 08:43 PM
Ye all of little faith, women can defend themselves. Just take a look at the clip below...

http://www.dkbnews.com/flash/2005/movie01.swf

:D :D :D

Boon.

Zato Ichi
05-19-2005, 09:02 PM
Ye all of little faith, women can defend themselves. Just take a look at the clip below...

That was a brilliant bridge suplex. :D

xuzen
05-20-2005, 02:02 AM
That was a brilliant bridge sup-lex. :D

Actually Hori-san,

I have seen this done in my dojo before. Please note, this tech is not of standard Yoshinkan syllabus. This is how it happened...

Uke and Shite were suppose to perform shomenuchi sokumen iriminage. Shite is a diminutive woman and Uke is a heavy built man twice Shite's weight. Shite couldn't perform sokumen iriminage / gyakugamae-ate, no matter how much she tried. Uke smirked.

Then, along came adjutant sensei. He asked Uke to strike shomenuchi and then purposely resist the gyakugamae-ate technique. Uke does what adjutant sensei asked him to do. When Uke resist, adjutant sensei suddenly moved to ushiro position and from there, grabbing both Uke's thighs, lifted him up and stopped at about to perform the Ura Nage.

Uke was utterly shocked. Then adjutant sensei said, "It is easy to resist when you know in advance what the other party is going to do. It is a different story altogether when he does not". But hey, this does not stop me from trying to test people out once in a while when the mood strikes me :D .

Boon.

Bronson
05-20-2005, 02:19 AM
Boon, thanks for that clip :) That was the best :D

Bronson

DaveO
05-20-2005, 05:22 AM
LOL!

Just curious - what is the translation for the piece? I'm curious what's being sold. :)

Nick Simpson
05-20-2005, 06:21 AM
Some good stuff here. Lorien, I understand heartattack :) (never been too good with abbreviations, I hate damn "txt talk" ).

Frenzys always a good thing I think. I remember hearing/reading some fighting/SD advice from someone, they were joking but it rings true. Basically went like-"Cover your balls, start screaming and shouting random things and swing like a mad man". Thats going to scare a few people and at least put some more focussed attackers off for a split second. A good kiai/scream/shout/all-out-metal-roar in someones face is not to be underestimated. An attacker invades your personal space, you do the same to theirs. Assault them, their space and their senses. Just might keep you alive...

Nick Simpson
05-20-2005, 06:26 AM
Hehe. That woman owned that guys ass and then handed it to him.

Dazzler
05-20-2005, 06:29 AM
http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest_writers/LizClarke/Guest_Writers_Liz_Clarke_page4.htm

Hope no one minds me posting this from Geoff Thompsons website.

I'm sure Geoff won't mind if we learn from Liz experience.

D

maikerus
05-20-2005, 10:56 PM
LOL!

Just curious - what is the translation for the piece? I'm curious what's being sold. :)

Dave...the clip is for a popular magazine in Japan. It's call "Monthly Boys Magazine" I think would be the translation.

The end of the clip, before the red text says something like "You never know what might happen next. and then something about finding out every month".

Sorry...should know better, but I'll have to ask or maybe someone else can help out.

cheers,

--Michael