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rob_liberti
05-12-2005, 09:23 AM
Okay, I have a question. I was at a Saotome sensei seminar and one of the drills was hamni handachi katatetori shihonage.

First, the uke grabbed the wrist and then proceeded to kick nage with their opposite leg. No problem there, you just have to cover that area.

The next drill, the uke grabbed the wrist, and then proceeded to do a face punch with their opposite hand. No problem with that drill either, you just have to cover that area.

My problem was that I decided to try to grab, punch the face, and while the name was dealing with the punch (at the apex of lifting their arm) I did a roundhouse with my leg at them. I think I could hit them pretty hard. The nage could defend one but not the combination very well. I think the nage was lifting their arm too early, but I wonder if they didn't do that could I get a good punch in at them before they'd be able to defend it.

I don't know. I sword, it's pretty simple. You just keep your sword tip covering their middle, and thrust if they start getting too close and tryingto go around you. In open hand, covering ramdom combinations is a bit more difficult. I'm thinking that maybe the nage would need to take the attacking hand down a bit more to get a tilt in uke's shoulders. Any ideas? (Mine would be to not do shihonage there until I worked it out better!)

Rob

Pauliina Lievonen
05-12-2005, 09:48 AM
Cool question. Hamni handachiwaza, I dunno. I think I'm going to try it out tomorrow after class. :)

Standing up, the way I've learned shihonage is that your arms and body go in two directions so to speak. You step toward uke, but arms are deflected in the direction where uke was originally going. Ukes own arm serves to block a punch with ukes free hand, and if the whole movement is done well enough, uke ends up standing on the toes of their front foot, so kicking would be difficult (I've tried it). Hamni handachi though, I don't know if it's possible to get uke out of balance enough in this way. It'll be fun to try though, i'll post about it if we get any interesting results... :D

kvaak
Pauliina

Dazzler
05-12-2005, 09:55 AM
Hi Rob

My though is that you were allowing yourself as Tori freedom to vary the attacks while uke is restricted to trying to make shihonage.

Take away that restriction and everything changes.

You said it yourself....they are just drills.

And not doing shihonage is probably the answer...do something else.

Cheers

D

Dazzler
05-12-2005, 09:56 AM
Cool question. Hamni handachiwaza, I dunno. I think I'm going to try it out tomorrow after class. :)

Standing up, the way I've learned shihonage is that your arms and body go in two directions so to speak. You step toward uke, but arms are deflected in the direction where uke was originally going. Ukes own arm serves to block a punch with ukes free hand, and if the whole movement is done well enough, uke ends up standing on the toes of their front foot, so kicking would be difficult (I've tried it). Hamni handachi though, I don't know if it's possible to get uke out of balance enough in this way. It'll be fun to try though, i'll post about it if we get any interesting results... :D

kvaak
Pauliina

Blocks? there are blocks in aikido? :freaky:

Pauliina Lievonen
05-12-2005, 10:27 AM
Blocks? there are blocks in aikido? :freaky:
When you get uke to block themselves, yeah. :D

kvaak
Pauliina

Dazzler
05-12-2005, 10:31 AM
Ahh ha...you have me there!

If you can get them to punch themselves too then I will be really impressed! :D

Cheers

D

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2005, 10:31 AM
Blocks? Darn tootin'...ayate yoke, sankaku yoke, all kinds of yoke... yokeru, to avoid. I think the misunderstanding comes in that people think static blocks where you stand still and try to stop the attack. I believe this to be a false premise. Combine as many levels of protection as you can, [move, atemi, block], 3 levels of protection. This does not require stoping uke's momentum.

Which brings us to hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage. Again, I was taught (in Daito ryu and yoshinkan aikido) to lock and enter at the same time. When uke grabs you must enter (using shikko-ho) into their center. Entering with the lock applied prevents them from striking (and certainly from kicking) as they should be off balance with their body 'open' and turned already. Daito ryu adds to the lock by using the forehead against the elbow to enhance the lock and enforce the throw.

Not that its easy....:) Maybe a bit of the Magic Mr. Szcepan often refers to is required... :)

The problem that I have is that in my experience, this pretty much requires the straight arm shihonage, which seems to be a no-no in much of modern aikido, and which has its own set of problems. Experienced people often simply don't allow their elbows to be easily straightened, and Ellis Amdur has shown a simple way to immediately break that lock if it is achieved (described in a recent thread). I think this is what makes unbalancing the uke at the very first instant so important. Its just that that can be very difficult to do...If you do get the elbow straight though, using the forehead to maintain the elbow lock would seem to prevent Ellis's counter from working. But I haven't tried this with him yet! I have a feeling it might not work against him... :crazy:

Best,
Ron

ps Michael or Steven...do you have a step by step description of this technique?

James Davis
05-12-2005, 10:50 AM
It sounds a little like nage is sitting still when the attack comes. :straightf Get to knee walking! Maybe the dojo where I train is different than most, but we're allowed to "break the ice" with other techniques so long as we finish with the technique that sensei asked for. The element of surprise is a very valuable tool. If your uke is taking for granted that you're going to hold still and let him grab or hit you, wake him up! :eek: Move your hand just a little. Get him to advance just a little further than he planned. Take his balance and have fun! :p

Dazzler
05-12-2005, 10:55 AM
Hi Ron

was a somewhat facetious post of mine...my issue with blocks are force against force.

So sure...blocks exist , but in my training I'm looking to blend rather than block...from a point of principle if uke attacks then i'll evade and counter. If uke grabs and pulls then I'll try and blend with irimi.

Blocking is a possibility for many...but if youre 6 stone receiving a 15 stone attack (sorry don't do kilos)...then evasion .....aka ying against yang is the answer.

Trying to beef out a strong opponent whos launched an attack to me is not really using the aggressors force against him.

Don't want to hijack the thread so back to shiho nage...lets not forget that we are talking about 4 directional throw..although variations are infinite depending on the precise nature of ukes attack.

I like paulinna's option of using the movement generated by turning the hips to restrict ukes follow up options ...either ukes arm stops a jodan level attack or the turn of ukes body restricts kicking.

Certainly not the sort of block I originally thought of though.

As for Robs original question...well hamni handachi waza ...and suwari waza are both teaching aids...aren't they? They restrictions on toris movement make it highly unfair to start throwing in extra strikes and expecting tori to compete with a standing opponent.

Cheers and thanks

D

MatthewJones
05-12-2005, 11:27 AM
Ah yes, the misconception that a block has to be two forearms smashing into each other at right angles. Blocks can be many things. Even hard styles of striking arts rarely just post up a forearm and wait for the strike to smash into it. :uch: :uch: :uch:

rob_liberti
05-12-2005, 12:44 PM
I saw a goju karate guy stand there and let a kempo guy try to kick through his block. The kemp guy was decent, but he admitted that it hurt his shin and the kick didn't get through. But, I am not looking for blocks like that for myself. I'd rather just figure out the optimal place to move given a situation and continue to go there.
Rob

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2005, 01:02 PM
Hi Rob, that's the point (hopefully it was clear) of what I was saying, enter and use the wrist grab of uke to turn his body. We didn't do any hanmi handachi with Ikeda Sensei when we were there recently, but I think his style would be similar to yours...When you grabbed his wrist, he took your balance and opened you to shiho by moving his center (his arm was of course attached to it:)). That movment opened your body so that you couldn't effectively strike or kick, and shiho (or pretty much whatever) was there. Doing that from your knees must be harder...but still doable.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2005, 01:04 PM
Hi Darin,

I can't imagine why anyone would block force against force if they could move. Who would ever 'beef it out' against someone stronger and hope to win? Not that aikido is about winning and losing :)

RT

Pauliina Lievonen
05-12-2005, 02:05 PM
Ahh ha...you have me there!

If you can get them to punch themselves too then I will be really impressed! :D

Cheers

D
I have managed to slap myself with uke's hand, does that count?
:o :p :D
Ok I don't have anything useful to say, I'll shut up now. :D

kvaak
Pauliina

senshincenter
05-12-2005, 03:30 PM
Rob,

Assuming this is a drill...

I'm not sure I understand clearly what you are describing but based upon what I'm getting - here's what I think might be being left out:

To the Irimi and the lock (things both suggested by Ron and others) I would add that would needs to make sure that there is actually a Yin upon which to enter (Yang). Toward this end, one has to not only use the lock to create various angles of cancellation along the homo and cross-lateral sides of uke's body, one must also use the lock (in combination with rest of one's te-sabaki) to sort of move uke out of the way and around oneself (nage). In a way, while nage does enter, uke and nage sort of pass each other via circles that are going outward from each other and in the opposite directions. Uke does not just stand there while nage closes the distance and/or penetrates uke's sphere of influence. There is no Yin to this.

Since nage and uke are sort of passing each other, whatever is not canceled out via any angle of cancellation generated by the lock is nevertheless checked because a line of attack can never be established on target by uke. Nage's goals are twofold: to create angles of cancellation that would address cross-lateral lines (e.g. punches and kicks with the opposite hand/foot) AND to not allow uke's Line of Attack to establish a positive vector on Nage's own Path of Action (i.e. angle of entry). Uke and Nage must pass each other - not just Nage passing Uke. When Nage and Uke pass each other like this, Uke is way too turned out to bring the cross-lateral weapons to bare.

Maybe that is what might be missing...?

david

maikerus
05-12-2005, 08:53 PM
ps Michael or Steven...do you have a step by step description of this technique?

Hmm...I'm not really sure what this thread is about and I've read it through 3 times. Hopefully tha won't stop me from commenting on hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage ichi (which I'm guessing is the question).

Okay...here goes.

1. Shite sits in seiza with hand on front part of knee; uke approaches slightly form the outside of the knee. They grab and pull up toward them selves (toward their center is the best spot).

2. Push off the top of the outside foot (which is touching the mat in seiza) about 2/3 of the way into uke's stance. The arms should move in kamae with uke's pull into a circle into uke and then out into your center, lightly hooking the outside hand baby finger onto uke's grabbing wrist. It's important not to lose contact with uke's hand at this point and the gripped arm should push into the V of uke's grip so they can't let go.

3. Push the hands forward and up to your forehead as in shumatsu dosa while at the same time lean back as far as you can keeping your back straight.

4. When you get to the point where you can't lean back any more because you will be lieing on the ground, or falling onto the ground, lift your outside knee up and and swing it around to point in the other direction (180 degress from where it started). Your weight should stay centered on you ankles as you shift about bringing your hands to kamae positiion. At this point you should be prallel to uke.

5. From here, bring uke down in shihonage to your center.

6. Drop uke in shihonage

7. Shift forward using the front knee to close the osae

8. Bring your striking hand to your forhead and strike uke between the eyes.

I think that's about it. There are probably some subtle points that I am forgetting.

cheers,

--Michael

maikerus
05-12-2005, 09:19 PM
Oh...one more point. At #2 above uke's arm and shoulder should be locked and their balance taken so they can't hit or kick you.

FWIW,

--MIchael

rob_liberti
05-12-2005, 09:20 PM
Hi all,

I think the problem is that once I grab the uke who is in on their knees, they are not moving nearly as freely as I am when I'm the standing uke and I am VERY close. My wrist is farily flexible so that move to get uke to wrap around the nage is more of a choice for me at the initial moment of the grab. It can be "put on" but I'm not sure it can be put on before I can get my other attacks in. They can try to take my angles of attack away from me as the uke, but I'm feeling like I have a fixed point (which may be moving, but still basically only moving relative to _both_ of us) and I'm close enough that I can attack faster than the average nage's reaction time from that distance given that I can spin around my grab for a kick and/or attack their head with a punch almost instantly.

I didn't actually get a chance to try to solve the problem as the nage - I was just giving my partner the next natural thing that made sense (to me) as the uke. I was hoping he'd respoind in kind so I could try to work it out. I think Darren's suggestion that you probably cannot get away with shihonage in that position against a more random attack is appropriate for my level of understanding. However, I am hoping to transcend my current level, so suggestions like David's seem useful - although I'm not sure how to actually implement those ideas. But I'll try!!!

Thanks for the ideas, all..

Rob

eyrie
05-12-2005, 09:48 PM
Gee David, you lost me. Try explaining that to a 12 year old... ;)

I think Ron was close on the button, and I'm sure David was too, just that I couldn't understand a word he was saying. :D

I think the idea is how do you off balance the person as they attempt to grab your wrist before they can follow up with a strike. I think any idea of "blocking" anything from hanmi han dachi is moot - you will get hit. If not the first, then the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc., as Rob pointed out.

Rob, if you've seen Takeda do this one, you'll see him draw uke into his center and atemi the face, whilst continuing to draw uke into an arc so that uke ends up circling around Takeda's back straight into shionage. I believe the draw in and around the back, coupled with the atemi in the direction you want uke to go, is enough to nullify any notion of throwing a strike or kick in as uke is already off balance and playing catch up to Takeda - whom I have seen many times do this move from the seated position without so much as shifting. All his hands do is move in an up-down motion, but it feels like he is using his body (center) to draw you into this big black hole. :O

maikerus
05-12-2005, 10:45 PM
Hi all,

I think the problem is that once I grab the uke who is in on their knees, they are not moving nearly as freely as I am when I'm the standing uke and I am VERY close. My wrist is farily flexible so that move to get uke to wrap around the nage is more of a choice for me at the initial moment of the grab. It can be "put on" but I'm not sure it can be put on before I can get my other attacks in.

Just a thought, but perhaps hanmi handachi is more a training exercise than an actual technique.

Which means that deciding to attack in a contrived fashion of reaching down and grabbing a wrist that's resting on a knee and *then* deciding to attack a different way just doesn't make a lot of sense.

--Michael

Charlie
05-13-2005, 04:46 AM
What is really being questioned here? Hanmi handachi techniques were viable techniques for their time...and they still are! Almost anything that you can do standing you can do sitting! But we all know that right? Not to mention that tachi waza improves immensely by mastering suwari waza.

What Ron and David were saying is right on. Too often you see people applying the technique without true control of uke's center allowing them to harbor the misconception that they might be able to "sneak" a punch or kick in there somewhere.

The cross step while entering to prepare to apply the take down must have control of uke's center. As David said, this moves uke center around making it safe to cross in front of him WITHOUT fear of being stricken. Why, because you have moved uke's center out of the way and unbalanced them. Hopefully at this point their center is rotating and they are up on their toes.

How is that achieved, well Michael Stuempel's posts addresses that. It is all in the hand placement or grip on the wrist depending on which attack.

So the next question addresses strikes after the grab, right? Your to late!!! You have to be moving upon the initial grab...you've made a decision to attack the grabbing hand already. Any secondary strike after that is just that, secondary. If you don't have what you need to handle the primary attack then adapt and do what you can with the secondary.

I am assuming that all that are participating in this thread have been uke in this technique. How viable is it to reach down to grab someone's hand and then try to hit/kick someone? It can be done but is not very effective. Just the act of bending over to grab someone puts you too off balance to generate any power. That being the case, in the course of a true attack the attacker would have to make a decision to EITHER grab or strike. Since I am not Jackie Chan or Jet Li, I do not see myself being attacked in this fashion anytime soon!

In learning this technique from Amos Parker Sensei it was always stressed to initiate movement BEFORE uke gets a solid grip on you. This is not new. Daito Ryu stresses the same principle.

Here is a lovely exposition of shihonage techniques http://www.myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Shihonage.wmv

Regards,

Jorx
05-13-2005, 06:30 AM
Kicking in clinchrange with roundhouse should mean an instant takedown... wristcontrol is not enough to prevent that. Shows how much Aikido has fallen behind in actual "martial" part... Reality check needed,

Jorx
05-13-2005, 06:33 AM
Ah... did not notice the hamni handachi part. Move forward. Shoot low single leg takedown would be the actual practical solution. However... talking about Aikido - just irimi to the wrist grabbing side - he cannot overcommit a kick to there. Weather the followup is a shihonage or something else is irrelevant.

Dazzler
05-13-2005, 06:48 AM
Ah... did not notice the hamni handachi part. Move forward. Shoot low single leg takedown would be the actual practical solution. However... talking about Aikido - just irimi to the wrist grabbing side - he cannot overcommit a kick to there. Weather the followup is a shihonage or something else is irrelevant.

Single leg takedown , reclining leg takedown with reverse elbow shot to groin...whatever.

It all boils down to what are you using the exercise to develop?

Is it just to fight?

Is it to work principles?

As can be seen on multiple threads what you use the training for depends on your background.

Yoshinkan see it one way, aikikai another, shudokan / tomiki another. Aiki jutsu and MMA other ways. Ki aikido is different again.

what is interesting though is that ultimately you propose to just get in there...in my experience this is our bottom line too.

So maybe we are all climbing to the top of the same mountain...but chose different routes?

This is why I've not proferred a definitive how to do shiho nage post...really you do it to suit your training methodology which is widely different depending on style. What means something to me may sound ridiculous to someone coming from another angle.

FWIW

Cheers

D

philipsmith
05-13-2005, 07:12 AM
I've struggling with this thread a little. Are you saying that in a "real" fight you would never get hit? If so that in my experience is a nonsense.

Also counter to this that or the other attack cannot be planned.

Aikido's effectiveness is limited by the skill of its practitioner and also by circumstance.

Example I was once uke for a Shihan who "cocked up" his technique and left a huge opening. Reflexly he simply knocked me to the floor.

Was it Aikido or not?

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2005, 08:48 AM
Example I was once uke for a Shihan who "cocked up" his technique and left a huge opening. Reflexly he simply knocked me to the floor.

Was it Aikido or not?

:) good question...I'd say it probably depends on the intent and the situation. On one hand, you could say he was ticked that he left the opening and took it out on you. On the other hand, you could say that he felt the opening and responded in the only way possible to maintain martial integrity. Who knows? Probably you as uke had the best vantage point (looking up at the stars) :)

Thanks Charles, the footage of Parker Shihan really illustrates that initial movement into uke's center. I didn't get to take ukemi from him when he was here in philly, but I have friends who uke for him on a regular basis...WOW. Gotta get me some of that... :)

Hi Michael, thanks for the description. I didn't think I could do a good job on it since I can't do suwari waza much anymore due to my knees. I did notice that you didn't seem to specify the initial entry that you see in Parker Shihan's film. Do you do that in your dojo? I know there are differencs even in the yoshinkan... :) Everything else you described is exactly how I remember it.

Kicking in clinchrange with roundhouse should mean an instant takedown... wristcontrol is not enough to prevent that. Shows how much Aikido has fallen behind in actual "martial" part... Reality check needed,

I can't see how the uke in the clip provided could possibly launch an effective kick while attacking that way.. Or why shite should abandon a perfectly safe and controling position to compromise themselves with body to body contact where a struggle might ensue. The historical context for the technique is that someone is trying to stop you from deploying a weapon. That someone could also be armed. No way I'm giving up shiho in that context to wrestle around on the ground with someone. And I used to wrestle in college.

Calling shiho as described in that video a wrist control pretty much highlights the fact you haven't felt this level of technique. It IS NOT a 'wrist control'. Actually, you can see in the video that the elbow and shoulder, and by extention, the body are all locked.

FWIW

Ron (reality indeed)

rob_liberti
05-13-2005, 09:19 AM
These are my favorite type of questions to ask sempai. I don't think there is a terribly easy answer. But I love the comments.

I have labored under the opinion that the basic waza with official names like "hamni handachi katatetori shihonage" are typically thought out enough to prevent such other attacks from the uke. My supposition is that even if I failed to think them through enough, the answer is normally there. I have noticed that the ones that don't have a lot of answers to "what if..." questions are typically called "kokyunage" because the set up is so fundimental that if you get to "what if" with those ones there is not a lot of "plan b" options.

About Takeda sensei or Ikeda sensei for that matter. Guys, I COMPLETELY understand that if I would just get to having excellent shinhan ability then I'd have no problems with this basic waza! I think the process towards getting there might be trying to figure some of these ideas out for my level. If my evil twin were uke, and I try to suck him in like Takeda sensei, I'm probably going to get clobbed in the face.

Jorgen, I agree that roundhouse in the clinch range would probably result in a take down when both parties are standing. When you are on your knees, I also agree that the kicking range relative to the reaction range is a bit greater - which I'm sure is why there is a suggesiton to irimi. The problem with the irimi is that I'm trying to atemi your head and I'm holding down the arm that would normally block such an attack given the intial angle of attack. But this comment "Shows how much Aikido has fallen behind in actual 'martial' part... Reality check needed," was uncalled for as I'm specifically trying to put martial reality check into this drill for my own sake.

Philip, I'm certainly not saying that in a "real" fight I would not get hit. I don't think I read anyone else saying that either.

Thanks for all of your input! - Rob

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2005, 10:42 AM
Thank you for the question...it was an excellent exercise.

Best,
Ron

senshincenter
05-13-2005, 11:17 AM
Yes, I would agree, one has to be a bit careful here since we are dealing, in a way, with a two-man form, and not a self-defense scenario (in my opinion). Still, accepting the question as an architectural problem is a worthy endeavor. Here is the problem as I see it: How to you architecturally address the cross-lateral and/or homo-lateral leg when it is employing a curvilinear Line of Attack (adopting its own Line of Attack crosswise to the (uke's) body's Line of Attack)?

While "How do you get Shiho-Nage to work in a fight?" may not be that viable of a question, this former question is extremely important, and from what I have seen often completely overlooked in much of Aikido practice. Many people cross this potential secondary Line of Attack all of the time in their Kihon Waza and in their Jiyu Waza. In our own spontaneous training, this is a very common place for my own students to be struck – and struck hard. In my experience, for most, Aikido tactical architecture often seems to be stuck along a two dimensional perspective - using things like the "X" or "Y" axis only to establish its various Angles of Deviation. To be sure, such a perspective will cover many tactical "what ifs," but more "what ifs" can be addressed if we also come to understand our Angles of Deviation along a three-dimensional and/or a more dynamic perspective. In particular, one should also try to see how Angles of Deviation could occur along a temporal and/or energetic aspect.

For me, in regards to Hanmi-Handachi Katate-dori Shiho-nage Omote, it is not that I do not cross in front of Uke’s body. I do – but only if you look at things photographically. Dynamically, while I may move in front of Uke’s initial Path of Action, I do cross Uke’s Line of Attack. This version of Shiho-nage generates an Angle of Deviation not along the “X” or “Y” axes, but rather it is made up of two concentric spirals – of different size and of different direction. Nage’s spiral is tightening (moving inward and forward) and through its movement comes to be more and more inside of Uke’s spiral, which is widening, moving outward, and backwards. Uke’s front leg is the axis of rotation for Uke’s spiral. As a result, that leg, the homo-lateral leg, cannot kick because as the axis of rotation it is the weight-supporting limb. As the weight-supporting limb, it ceases to establish a Line of Attack independent of the body’s initial Path of Action. In this way, it can be contained along the ever-widening Angle of Cancellation that Nage is attempting to establish. However, it is important for Nage to stay within this Angle of Cancellation. Nage should not enter beyond it – which is common mistake worth mentioning here. If I may, one must think of this as opening an umbrella in the rain. You have to stay under the umbrella as you keep the umbrella over your head. It does not do any good to open up the umbrella and then step out from under it and/or move it out from over you.

The cross-lateral leg of Uke, not being the weight-supporting limb of an outward turning spiral has an Angle of Cancellation placed upon it in two primary ways: First, it is being effected by the body’s symmetry, and secondly it is being influenced and/or determined by the energy of the spiral. This means that the homo-lateral side of Uke’s body is obstructing the cross-lateral side of Uke’s body from establishing a Line of Attack. As long as Nage stays within the initial Angle of Cancellation he/she generated on the homo-lateral leg, Uke will have to go around his/her own body in order to bring weapons on target. This is one reason, if I am understanding the initial post correctly, the roundhouse kick proved to be more effective as a “what if” – since it is a weapon partially designed to go around the opposite side of one’s own body. However, forcing Uke to adopt such tactics is part of the defensive redundancy built into a technique like Shiho-nage. Inspiring Uke to adopt “circular” strikes in order to bring weapons to target means the Nage maintains his/her Center Line. With the Center Line being freely dominated by Nage, Nage is actually in a position to both attack and defend simultaneously.

If you will please step out of the “form” for a minute and take a look at Nage’s body movement, you will see that Nage is geared toward accepting or being braced for “circular” strikes – should any make it through the various Angles of Cancellation that are trying to be employed against such things. Please note that Nage’s arms, head, front knee, etc., resemble someone that is covering up and moving forward into the eye of a storm – which is precisely one way you would want to address “circular” strikes. Hence, it is not really to the advantage of Uke to adopt such strikes. As one person already said, such things open to door for all kinds of takedowns, etc.

However, while Nage is using such “crude” defensive tactics (i.e. covering up, entering, and bracing along the dominated Center Line), the outward/backward turning spiral being engaged upon Uke’s body makes sure that energy is traveling away from the direction that these strikes might engage from. This greatly reduces the power on such strikes since they will have to compete against the contrary energy of the outward turning spiral. In order to make use of this Angle of Cancellation along the cross-lateral side of Uke’s body, Nage has to make sure that his/her timing is correct in relation to the energy of the outward turning spiral. You cannot enter too soon and you cannot enter too late. As in the first case, using the umbrella again: You do not want to go out in the rain before you open the umbrella up/you do not want to stay in the rain after you close the umbrella.

Several folks that have posted seem to be saying this and/or something very similar to this. However, I would like to make one more point: For any of this to happen, I do not believe that one can have his/her hand as Nage on their knee when it is grabbed. At this point, the maai is too close for the Angles of Cancellation I mentioned to occur. One is left only with the “covering up” – which now is redundant with only one other element: the check caused by the symmetry of Uke’s body. Let us say that the distance at which Uke can grab Nage’s wrist at their knee is “X.” When distance “X” is reached in the version I have attempted to describe above, Nage and Uke should not be at the beginning of their movement but either at the apex and/or on the completing side of the curvature of their corresponding spirals. If you reach “X” when you are still at the beginning of your movement as Nage, I think you will indeed find what Rob said he found when he first addressed the issue.

maikerus
05-13-2005, 07:41 PM
Hi Michael, thanks for the description. I didn't think I could do a good job on it since I can't do suwari waza much anymore due to my knees. I did notice that you didn't seem to specify the initial entry that you see in Parker Shihan's film. Do you do that in your dojo? I know there are differencs even in the yoshinkan... :) Everything else you described is exactly how I remember it.

Hi Ron,

Sorry for the confusion. It was a fast post and maybe not as clear as I would have wanted it to be. We definately do do the initial entry as shown in the clip (this is the 2nd technique that he did).

Here's where I was trying to say it. The first line (badly) says this because I was focusing on the way to push using the top of the foot as your pushing point and didn't specify that you would actually be moving. I also forgot to say that your outside knee would also be involved in the push <wry grin>. The "with uke's pull" part is what other people have been saying about moving before the attack grab is complete so that shite is in motion:

---From Previous Post---

2. Push off the top of the outside foot (which is touching the mat in seiza) about 2/3 of the way into uke's stance. The arms should move in kamae with uke's pull into a circle into uke and then out into your center, lightly hooking the outside hand baby finger onto uke's grabbing wrist. It's important not to lose contact with uke's hand at this point and the gripped arm should push into the V of uke's grip so they can't let go.

---End Previous Post---

A couple of things after seeing the video clip.

1. I think that the uke was being a little too "uke-ish" and backed up on his attack and this is why Parker Shihan didn't go in as much as I would have expected.

2. Chida Shihan advocates leaning back much farther than Parker Shihan did in the clip. This is just FYI...obviously Parker Shihan doesn't need to, but if anyone is having trouble with this technique this point may help them.

It was a good clip...thanks Charles for posting it.

cheers,

--Michael

takusan
05-14-2005, 12:17 AM
Whew,
some of the descriptions of the techniques are probably more difficult to assimilate than the problem they are trying to cover.
My penny's worth will be the same - sorry.

For me David Valadez and Charles Burmeister have pretty much covered the pertinent points.

Firstly though, I have found it interesting to hear of the style of the attack at initiation.
Am I correct in that you (as uke) required to grasp tori's wrist - from their knee??
Heard of it being done that way, but not actually seen it. Not from hanmi hantachi at least. Well there you go then.

Any how - as David and Charles commented, uke should not be in a position to launch any secondary attack - period.
If they are, then tori's initial response has been - how do you say this politely - mmm, *****.

If you aren't initiating, at the point of contact, a movement that takes uke's center (balance) then you have pretty much failed, and anything that follows will be marginal to zilch, as far as effectiveness.

(NB, like quite a few of you, this is one of my most favoured techniques / movement exercises, so teach this alot - but on occasion, still fails - it is not a technique that you should ever get too cocky with - but - in another couple of decades------- :crazy: )

As was alluded to in one post, there is more than one angle to defend with. This alone should exclude uke from any form of kick and therefore, if they are unable to kick, there's bugger all chance that they can punch / strike.

(What happens though, is that uke launches a simultaneous attack, that will see you (tori) in a real predicament. This annoys me no end, as this is a cheating attack, as tori is of the understanding that it (the attack) is of a standard / formal nature. These attacks should ONLY ever be done after the terms of engagement are negotiated before the attack. We do this occasionally to create a more 'combative reality', BUT tori is able to respond with a wider range of defenses. Real fun, but can be dangerous - for the senior ranks usually)

Not sure how / where you (tori) are putting your hand relative to uke's grip, as this can have a fundamental effect upon uke - and makes for a huge difference in effectiveness.
I use this variation to describe / explain the difference from going from kihon waza to randori type techniques (specifically, when we are talking ki no nagare).
Things can and do change between the two levels.
This change comes from appreciating the MULTIPLE variations of attack, therefore requiring a movement that can work with these comprehensive variations of attacks (or initiation).
Honestly, I do what feels correct at the time, allowing for uke's variant attacks.

That said, this set up is not kihon waza therefore, within our club, we place the hand on top of ukes gripping hand and essentially now use his arm as a sword, cutting their legs from under them, plus, and I feel this is important, we don't always execute a full omote movement, rather, TOTALLY dependent upon uke's commitment to their attack, either a movement at approx 90° to the attack OR we do ura.
When doing omote from hanmi hantachi, while safe if executed properly, allows for too much potential counter or simple error, thus placing tori in a compromised position. We teach and practice it, as kihon waza, but personally, I only ever execute it with the above mentioned directions.

maikerus
05-14-2005, 01:03 AM
Firstly though, I have found it interesting to hear of the style of the attack at initiation.
Am I correct in that you (as uke) required to grasp tori's wrist - from their knee??
Heard of it being done that way, but not actually seen it. Not from hanmi hantachi at least. Well there you go then.

Hi David,

Yup...that's how its taught as a *kihon waza* in Yoshinkan. See the 2nd technique shown on the clip Charles posted. It's used from a pull by uke.

The 3rd technique in the clip is done when uke pushes (hence the pivot)...there's some fun/cool hand and wrist motion there to make that work that I really like.

These are taught as part of the Yoshinkan syllabus as kihon waza. They are both part of the 3rd kyu tests at my dojo.

David...how do you study this as kihon? What is the attack if not grabbing from the knee? I assume that it is having the hand in the air? I have done it that way in jiyuwaza and just for fun, but its not part of the syllabus. For us the ryotemochi technique is also done from the knee...see the first tech in the clip. How about for you?

From a kihon waza perspective it would seem to me to change the point being taught in the kihon waza. Which is perfectly fine, but I am curious as to what techniques you use to train for that pull by uke to try and raise you up, or that push by uke to try and keep you on the ground. To me these two techniques are very unique in the fundamental principles they show/demonstrate/practice and I am curious what you use as an alternative.

It does explain, however, why I was confused about what the question was at the beginning. Now it makes more sense when you consider that the person is grabbing a hand in front of them instead of reaching down to bring it up. <wry grin>

cheers,

--Michael

-

xuzen
05-14-2005, 02:17 AM
Rob (The thread starter),

Please allow me to rephrase your initial question as how I interpret it, if I am wrong, then I apologize.

Are you meaning to say that when you grab an shite/tori's wrist during hanmi handachi and while shite performs shihonage you THINK you can kick with your legs or punch with the other hand?

My answer: -

This technique hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage osae, (one sitting, one standing single hand grab four directional throw) for the irimi version; when uke grabs and pull you towards him, you move in at an angle while twisting the wrist making his body facing away from you, at the same time using this twisting motion, you are suppose to make the uke off balance and he should be on tip toe.

For the tenkan version; as uke pushes, you pivot and again using the arm/wrist twisting motion, off balance him and get uke on tip toe.

Remember to keep him off balance (never never allow him/her to regain balance) and when you are in position, drop your arm 90 degrees vertical downwards together with your uke.

This is how hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage osae has been taught to me by my sensei. When he initiate his movement, I am already on tip toes, I don't see how I can get a second punch nor kick in without falling over. Even if I do punch or kick, there won't be power behind the strike as my balance already has been broken.

This is how I understand hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage osae. Is this different from how you are shown, Rob?

Boon.

Charlie
05-14-2005, 04:01 AM
This is how I interpret someone NOT being able to launch a secondary attack if the shihonage is being done properly!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/productdetails.php?code=dvd26

Attacking arm is completely locked which in turn moves uke's center around you. Uke up on his toes and being controlled.

This is the Diato Ryu version...but same principles.

And yes Michael...Parker Shihan does stress leaning farther back until uke's armpit is above you head. You were absolutely right in your assessment that he doesn't need too (heehee).

Regards,

rob_liberti
05-14-2005, 07:21 AM
I see that I did a poor job of explaining the attack I was working on, While I understand that it is a good training exercise to let the uke grab your hand at your knee, I wasn't playing at that level of martial reality. I was more playing in the realm where if I were coming in at the nage and I saw their hands down at their knee, I would be thinking, "Captain, their shields are down! FIRE!" and I would punch them in the head. I expect that I'm grabbing the wrist to get it out of the way and to have a launching platform for the next attack. Also, I don't typically ever grab such that the middle of my palm is pressed against the uke's wrist. (Unless they are a total beginner, I'm not generally completely giving myself to the nage as their slave.) Anyway, given my grab intention, and my wrist flexibility I really don't see myself standing on my toes if I thinking grab wrist to hit head and or kick (cross laterally). .Anyway, good comments and interesting clip.

Thanks, Rob

Charlie
05-14-2005, 10:40 AM
See...that's the part that I never can understand! (Not to pick on you Rob) How can someone give a committed attack by not whole heartedly GRABBING with ALL the hand. If you are grabbing in such a manner that you do not commit the whole hand to the grab then you are not effectively grabbing are you? How can anyone possible try to grab in a manner to control someone by not using all of their digits (and subsequently the palm as well)? Whether to grab a wrist or a shoulder or an arm requires the use of all the hand. If you're not using your palm in the grab then what are you using...just you finger tips?

If that is the case then don't you think shite/tori could feel that it was nothing more than a feint or a preparatory for something else? If you went to grab someone in a seated position without the true intent to grab them but to strike them in a different manner would show in your approach.

Now that being said, I would have to state again that if the attacker was getting a solid grip on you in the first place...you're too late. It doesn't matter if YOU intend to grab solidly. If shite/tori initiates movement at the beginning of the attack - before the grip is solid they still COULD make the grip solid whether you want it to be or not.

And if they are good enough to make it solid then you will most likely end up on your toes and unable to follow up with a secondary attack.

Regards,

senshincenter
05-14-2005, 01:09 PM
Hi Michael,

In answer to your question… You are correct in assuming that we have the hand being offered, much in the same way that it is offered in tachiwaza. We do not put the hand on our thigh/knee area. Our reasoning for this all stems from the position that all Kihon Waza are drill oriented – by which we mean that they are not specific answers to given self-defense scenarios. The wrist grab then is understood to mark a critical space/time. It is primarily this and not an attack on the wrist. Of significance, we feel the distance of two slightly bent arms marks the time/space of when one needs to have a sense and/or gain a sense of now being in a critical moment. This is the time/space to move – otherwise one is going to have to suffer the consequences and/or adapt to shorter-range tactics.

I am not suggesting that a wrist grab and a strike happen at this same distance (i.e. range) but I am suggesting that the space/time of katate-dori is equivalent to when one must move (should one opt to move) when facing the space/time of a strike. While I personally agree it is important to study various architectures according to various types of energy (e.g. pushing/pulling, etc.), I would not want to study them if it meant I had to violate that critical time/space I mentioned above. When we want to deal with such things, we tend to dissect a waza into parts and address such things that way. For example, if I want to see if I have the proper te-sabaki for the slight lifting of shiho-nage, and I want to measure that against someone with enough pushing energy to pin my hand on my thigh, I might have him/her push my hand down with ryote-dori, plus maybe another person assisting him/her, and then I would just work on getting my hands up to the top of my head. We may or may not, most often not, do the rest of the technique. Why? For us, for me, I think developing that sense of critical time/space is vital to spontaneous action – more vital than being able to answer, “What do I do if someone grabs my wrist at my knee?” This sense is developed bodily and so I try very hard not to send the body mixed messages as much as possible.

On the “up on his/her toes” check. I would like to suggest that this is only a check if the person on their toes wants to get their feet back on the ground. As such, this is only a check on the opponent’s height and only in one direction – really. It does not really affect the person’s capacity to seek width (and thus bring his/her cross-lateral weapons to target). If one accepts that he/she is going up and cannot come down, though the pain remains, one can still find the cross-lateral roundhouse kick only it will be of a “flying” nature. As one accepts that he/she is going up, the lock somewhat reduces its effectiveness – which is further reduced once the flying roundhouse kick has disengaged Nage’s Body Fusion and Directional Harmony from the lock’s architecture. To check width, one needs to have Uke’s body turn, not just rise. I would say that uke’s body needs to turn even more than in this last picture of Kondo.

(Does anyone else think that Uke of Kondo’s makes too many faces – kind of hamming it up a bit???? I’ve seen him make that same face for things that seem totally out of place. It’s almost like Yamano’s uke for me. )

George S. Ledyard
05-14-2005, 08:31 PM
While I personally agree it is important to study various architectures according to various types of energy (e.g. pushing/pulling, etc.)

I just wanted to say that, if nage is aware and not caught by surprise by this grab, the intention to push, pull, rotate etc. should be irrelevant because at the instant of cantact nage is already moving in such a way as to position ukeproperly (as described by David).

I see this as completely compatible with how David described the technique. I need to rotate my partner so that his hip and shoulder lines (the line of shoulder to shoulder and the line of hip to hip) have changed maing it impossible for uke to kick or punch with the back leg or arm. If one is behind the line of the shoulders the uke cannot punch him and if one is behind the line of the hiops he cannot execute a straight kick; however he can shift his weight and execute a side kick so the weight must also be dropped to preclude this. The grabbed hand must drop causing the uke's weight to shift forward, thereby making a kick with the front foot impossible.

Uke of course will not wish to be in this position and his attempt to right himself supplies energy for the raise needed to do the shihonage.

Jorx
05-15-2005, 04:19 AM
Just for the record I reffered to gyakuhanmi as wristcontrol not to shihonage.
I'm out of this thread now... as people are discussing hanmihandachi details not too interested in that...

Charlie
05-15-2005, 07:05 AM
I think this is where people tend to get "caught up" in the presentation of technique in a kata form. In Yoshinkan kihon waza (basic technique), for the technique hanmi handachi katate mochi shihonage, we start with the hand on the knee or thigh area. Uke comes in and grabs or pulls depending on which one we are doing. If I read David correctly, in applying your style's technique you start with the hand/wrist being offered/extended.

There is no difference. It is just a starting place to begin to teach proper body movement, proper angles and over all proper mechanics. Maybe at one point in time this was a specific technique for a specific action but I highly doubt that it would be practical in a self-defense situation in this "pure form" today. The mechanics are though!

That is precisely the point that a lot of students miss when they see a technique (kihon waza) presented in a static manner. They see it as a be all - end all to a specific attack when in fact what it truly teaches is the proper mechanics so that one can be able to apply what ever variant they need to have an effective counter to any type of attack.

Kihon waza is not self defense! It could be used as such if the situation lent itself to be perfect for that technique but how often does that happen? What is more important is to learn the basic mechanics from the "basic technique" so that the door may be opened to the whole gamut of variation that is out there (e.g. self-defense).

That being the case, the whole "but I could do this in that scenario" becomes a mute point. Although this vain of thinking still remains viable as a means of continuing to stimulate the process of learning. It doesn't do much to teach what is actual because that situation only exists in your mind and is not what is real!

What is real is the "intent" of the attack. If someone is coming in to GRAB me, what do I really have to deal with? The grab is real - but secondary to the "intent". I have a split second to deal with their "intent" either before it solidifies or after. When that happens then it can only be in an up/down, right/left, yin/yang fashion. This is fine by me because the whole premise of my Aikido practice started with "If uke pushes I do this - if uke pulls I do that.

As far as the rest of what is said, we are in agreement. I do not want uke to be ONLY on their toes. As previously stated too often I see people cross uke's center line without control of uke's center. In an actual situation this would just be screaming hit me/kick me please. When I say center that includes their hips and shoulders.

When I have uke on their toes then I have properly locked uke's wrist, arm , shoulder, center and "intent". All this makes uke light as a feather and easier to maneuver.

As always - IMHO!

maikerus
05-15-2005, 08:51 PM
Charles...well said.

David...no arguments from me. Your description matches what I understand.

One interesting thing about shihonage from hanmi handachi is the difference in the ellipse of the shihonage "circle" from hanmi handachi ryote mochi shihonage and "regular" shihonage or the shihonage from hanmi handachi katate mochi.

The difference between these two is that the ellipse used in ryote mochi is perpendicular to the floor while the ellipse in other shihonage is more parallel to the floor. These types of differences are what I was referring to when asking how do you train for these different movements. Does anyone else work on these kind of differences in shihonage...and if so, how?

cheers,

--Michael

-

rob_liberti
05-15-2005, 09:01 PM
I think the grab is not as black and white as case 1 - you are a total slave to uke, OR case 2 - you are just pretending to touch them.

As a matter of fact, when I grip a sword, I hold it primarily with the pinkys (okay about 1/2 a pinky on the bottom of the handle) and ring fingers and then the thumbs. I don't stick my other fingers out, I do grip completely, and I never press my palms directly against the handle.

When I grab a wrsit I do the same thing (unless I'm working with a total beginner and I think it would be more helpful to them). I tend to start my grab rotating the thumbs from inside to outside until I make contact (which is kind of like a dog bite) and then if it's a sempai or dohai I then start twisting my hand(s) the other way and try to jam their center through that contact in a more center to center way.

I understand that if the nage does their job well that I can't get that good of a grab, or if the nage is really good they don't care how good a grab I have on them. The thing is, that given that grab from someone with a farily flexible wrist, followed by those possible attacks, it seems that nage's movement to avoid the kick exposes the head to a strike, and the move the protect against the head strike exposes the head. I don't mean to belabor the point. I'll grab some more sempai and try until someone woops me good. I do understand that you might have to abandon the shihonage, but I suppose I was looking for when to abandon it and what some good ideas would be for what to do instead - or if shihonage can be done safely. Either way the interest is not to poo poo basic waza but to understand it better.

Anyway, thanks for the comments and interest! Rob

rob_liberti
05-15-2005, 09:21 PM
The thing is, that given that grab from someone with a farily flexible wrist, followed by those possible attacks, it seems that nage's movement to avoid the kick exposes the head to a strike, and the move the protect against the head strike exposes the head.
Sorry, I'm super tired and it is showing. That should have ended with

..and the move the protect against the head strike exposes them to the cross lateral kick.

Sorry! (need sleep now!) - Rob

Ron Tisdale
05-16-2005, 08:31 AM
(Does anyone else think that Uke of Kondo's makes too many faces -- kind of hamming it up a bit???? I've seen him make that same face for things that seem totally out of place. It's almost like Yamano's uke for me. )

Shizuo Amano Sensei is one tough SOB...Have you ever felt Kondo Sensei apply that technique? I know much of modern day aikido equates pain with 'bad' technique...

When Daito ryu people talk of locking all three joints in sucsession, they aren't kidding. If someone good does this control, you are on your toes, slapping like mad, and NOT thinking about kicking or punching. You are thinking about not losing a joint. :) But hey, unless you've taken the ukemi...I might think he was hamming it up too...

Ron

senshincenter
05-16-2005, 02:26 PM
I'm sure he is a tough man and no I haven't felt Kondo Sensei's shiho-nage. And I would not equate pain with bad technique.

The most similar thing, in my opinion, I may have felt is Chiba's versions of the technique (which also make use of the lock) and Nomura's (which gave me a three-year long shoulder/elbow injury) - either case, can't say I made that face. When I watch the Daito-Ryu tapes, Kondo's other uke doesn't make those faces either. Understand, I see this as a silly little point, but can I ask if you make those faces when you take ukemi from Kondo?

Here's the thing, through the years, I've just been exposed and/or had witness to a lot of uke that seem to see it as part of their ukemi to let folks know that the technique is painful and/or is working. Other uke don't. My preference has always been for the latter - but that is such a personal thing it's not even worth mentioning. And I can't say what kind of uke Shizuo Amano is - so I'll take your word for it. I just wanted to give you my background for a preference of a particular type of uke to say that I would agree that Shizuo Amano is tough and that that technique is indeed painful.

thanks,
dmv

Ron Tisdale
05-16-2005, 02:31 PM
:) Kool...I was just currious.

RT

Pauliina Lievonen
05-16-2005, 06:20 PM
So I had a chance finally tonight to try a hanmi handachi katatedori shihonage with a dojo-mate...With the caveat that we're both quite inexperienced, here's what we did:

Our basic shihonage from hanmi handachi, tori offers a hand up in the air for uke to grab, uke pushes slightly towards tori's center. Tori has their shoulder extended, so that their arm doesn't collapse but the arm is free to move in the shoulder and so that there's a contact between both partners centers. Tori moves forward to the front of uke with their inside knee/leg, and lets their arm deflect as a result of the movement. Thing is, if the original distance is two arms lengths, and tori moves closer, the arms must go somewhere, right? So if tori's right wrist was grabbed, they let their and uke's arms deflect toward tori's left shoulder. Continuing the movement forward under uke's arm, turn and throw. And I forgot, tori's other hand takes ukes wrist during the first movement, so the action kinda goes from the first hand being grabbed and deflect into the second hand throwing.

What happens to uke is that they grab and immediately get taken out of balance to their forward weak point. Ways to screw this up include failing to connect to uke properly from the first instant, or trying to pull uke's arms in the wished for direction, instead of letting the direction come as a result of the movement. Or letting the arms collapse during the deflection. Or... :p

So anyway, we tried with an additional punch with the other hand, or a kick with the back foot. The punch didn't make all that much difference because the punching hand gets blocked by tori's arms and uke's other arm... the kick made ukemi very exiting indeed because it added momentum in the direction where uke was falling anyway.

We also tried different kinds of grabs, pulling, less contact, but as long as tori managed to make the connection it didn't matter very much, although with a pull the technique went in a slightly different direction. I'm pretty sure that with a more experienced partner I couldn't have pulled some of these off though - the more experienced uke is, the better the connection has to be that I can make with them, and my connecting abilities are limited.

I also tried briefly with another dojomate who is more experienced than I am - I could barely throw him from a basic attack, adding the kick made it slightly easier. The added momentum again.

Well, I don't know how much sense my attempts at technical description make, but we got a good moment of practice out of this question, so thanks for that. :)

kvaak
Pauliina

Charlie
05-17-2005, 10:01 AM
...The problem that I have is that in my experience, this pretty much requires the straight arm shihonage, which seems to be a no-no in much of modern aikido, and which has its own set of problems. Experienced people often simply don't allow their elbows to be easily straightened, and Ellis Amdur has shown a simple way to immediately break that lock if it is achieved (described in a recent thread)...

Ron...Which thread covered this topic?

And for those that are NOT advocates of the "straight arm" shihonage...

What do you suggest as an alternative if you are either "late" in getting proper position on uke to apply "folded arm" shihonage or uke is too strong for you to be able to fold the arm and the "straight arm" would be the logical next step?

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
05-17-2005, 10:47 AM
Hi Charles, I'll try to look that up in a couple of minutes...

Ron

Pauliina Lievonen
05-17-2005, 11:35 AM
Could you describe a bit more what you mean with a straight arm shihonage and folded arm shihonage, I'm a bit lost here?

Thanks
Pauliina

Ron Tisdale
05-17-2005, 11:51 AM
From the clip Charles provided on the first page:
http://www.myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Shihonage.wmv

you can see an example of shihonage done with the arm locked at wrist, elbow and shoulder, and the lock is released a bit to bend the arm before the throw to a pin. There is also what is called shihonage kuzushi, which is similar, but the arm is straight throughout the technique, and there is no pin. The last shiho in the clip was almost like that, but not quite.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8021&highlight=shihonage is a link to the thread that discusses Ellis's counter to a straight arm lock for shiho.

Best,
Ron

Charlie
05-17-2005, 01:06 PM
Is this what you are referring to for kuzushi http://myaa.info/media/Parker_shihan_shihonage_-_kotegaeshi_cross.wmv ?

Thank you for the link...now get back to work!!!

Cheers!

senshincenter
05-17-2005, 01:12 PM
Hi All,

With the ease at which it is now possible to put things on video and then to post such video on the web, I've always wanted to see more accompanying video with discussions such as these. No matter where we come down on things, I think we can all learn a great deal by taking advantage of this medium in this way. Toward that end, and in the hopes of encouraging others (for example, it would be great to see a video from Rob wherein he can demonstrate the problematic he's using to further refine and/or reflect over Shiho-nage - hint hint), I am going to try and put some kind of accompanying video together. I hope to have it done in a day or two (or three) - I'll post it then. If anyone else can do such a thing - please join me in this action. Again, I think it would prove to be very rewarding - the more folks that can use these forums in this way, the better (my opinion).

thanks,
dmv

rob_liberti
05-17-2005, 02:05 PM
Excellent suggestion! Maybe we can eventually take this whole idea further and actually make it a thing where someone posts a problem like this, and then others post footage of their answers with some explanations. We could probably end up making our own aikiweb instructional video!

At this point, I have a digitial video camera, but I am in short supply of a sempai willingto let me try to bash them in the face of cross laterally kick them in the stomach in an attempt to shut their technique down - that usually takes a seminar! However, I'll be with a good dohia this weekend. I can at least ask him do the punch and/or kick, and I'll try to work it out. I'll try to take video of it and then you can tell me where to send it for your viewing pleasure!

Rob

senshincenter
05-17-2005, 02:30 PM
Hi Rob,

If you don't have a place to upload it - sure - i can put it up and link it through our dojo web site. No problem.

Yeah man! That's the spirit - I really think we can take this forum to a whole other level by applying these technologies.

thanks,
david

Ron Tisdale
05-17-2005, 02:46 PM
I wish I was closer Rob...I'd let you kick me in the stomach (not so sure about the face thingy though!)

Thanks guys for doing this. And thanks to Charles for the clips so far...

Ron

Charlie
05-17-2005, 04:30 PM
I'd say thank you but the person that really needs to be thanked is Parker Shihan. I provide these clippings freely only because he allows me too!

He has never been one to hold back because of what the video (technique) may look like to others. A favorite quote of mine that he uses all the time from Kiyoyuki Terada Hanshi (his instructor) is: [when it comes to the application of Aikido techniques] It doesn't always have to be pretty...but it MUST be effective.

He has taught me much and probably the biggest lesson he has given me is it isn't mine to keep.

Now back on thread......The problem that I have is that in my experience, this pretty much requires the straight arm shihonage, which seems to be a no-no in much of modern aikido, and which has its own set of problems. Experienced people often simply don't allow their elbows to be easily straightened, and Ellis Amdur has shown a simple way to immediately break that lock if it is achieved (described in a recent thread)... And for those that are NOT advocates of the "straight arm" shihonage...

What do you suggest as an alternative if you are either "late" in getting proper position on uke to apply "folded arm" shihonage or uke is too strong for you to be able to fold the arm and the "straight arm" would be the logical next step?

Regards,

senshincenter
05-22-2005, 01:11 PM
Just checking in to apologize for my delay (taking longer that I originally thought) and also to say that I am still working on the clips and hope to have them linked here within the week at the latest.

Thanks,
dmv

Rupert Atkinson
05-22-2005, 05:18 PM
Talking about shiho-nage in terms of self-defence is not the most useful of conversations for most people - it took me years to get the hang of it and sometimes I still wonder. However, as tori is so low compared to uke in hanmi-handachi , shiho-nage is altogether possible. If you want to do shiho-nage on someone, maybe you should sit down first!

But what I really want to say is that no mattter what kind of shiho-nage you do (standing, half-standing, kneeling, bent arm, straight arm ...), it needs to be based on udekime-nage (mae-otoshi to Tomiki folks) to be truly effective. Do lots of udekime-nage and then try shiho-nage and make sure what you are doing carries over, i.e. you are not doing separate techniques but closely related ones. It is my strong belief that what you do in one technique should help in another, indeed, all the others.

Other than that, there are other uses of shiho-nage in Aikido training that are un-realted to the immediate self-defence application that everyone thinks of.

PS Videos are a good idea - I have lots but am not sure what to do with them. Many are rather large files.

senshincenter
05-22-2005, 07:20 PM
Hi Rupert,

Same thing - if you got some video that you think would be conducive to any discussion on what is checking the cross-lateral side during Katate-dori Shiho-nage Omote (especially in Hanmi-Handachi), send it to me and I'll post it on our dojo web site for at least the time that we are all having this discussion.

senshincenter@impulse.net

Thanks,
david

George S. Ledyard
05-23-2005, 01:36 AM
If anyone is interested there is some relevant discussion of atemi and timing thereof in the May article at:

http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/gledyard/2005_05.html

It touches onb the action / reaction gap which effects how we use atemi waza.

rob_liberti
05-23-2005, 08:43 AM
I'm still working on the video. The training this weekend was very intense and the schedule was very tight, so I didn't really get the opportunity I wanted. I have a plan "b" though.

Hi George sensei,
I loved your article. I really appreciate your taking the time to write these things down. Maybe when I see you next weekend, if there is time, I can get your opionion on my hamni handachi shihonage/'atemi coverage problem.

I tried it a few more times, and it seems like the main problem is that I (as uke) just can get way too close while I make the iniital grab. I don't have to be at arm's length away because the nage is in poor attack/counter attack position relative to me. If I were allowed to grab the person's hand in their lap, I know I could clobber them with the other hand before they can defend it. If they reach out and bring me in (which is what I've been working on to try to solve the distance problem) it seems liek there is a chance, but they have to bring me in quickly enough to get my arm straightened (which is not a given) before I clobber them. If they cheat and rise up a bit to get mroe time, that cross lateral kick is waiting. I don't know. I don't mean to harp on the example. I think your article describes the larger picture of what I think I'm exploring in my example. I just don't have much more insight into how to approach the answer.

Rob

Ron Tisdale
05-23-2005, 09:09 AM
Katate-dori Shiho-nage Omote (especially in Hanmi-Handachi)

This was one of the techs. on a dojo mates dan exam this past sunday. Funny how these things pop up :)

Ron

Rupert Atkinson
05-23-2005, 09:13 PM
Here is me doing Hanmi-handachi shiho-nage in the year 2000.

http://www.cuk.ac.kr/~rupert/movies/Movs014.asf
It is from this page wchich also has some other stuff:
http://www.cuk.ac.kr/~rupert/movies/aikimovies.html
(This stuff is on a server where I used to work and they have not deleted it yet)

Hanmi-handachi shiho-nage
I made this clip in 2000 - so obviusly not with the present discussion in mind but if you watch carefully, when I begin the irimi version I contact uke's body and turn it slightly so that his striking hand cannot reach me. I also raise my 'spare' hand momentarily in case uke does attack. If I had been a little more early and positive that could have been a strike. I cross his centre. Also, the way I do shiho-nage puts quite a lot of force into uke's arm - unless he goes in the one direction I leave open to him, at which point uke perceives little force at all. For the finish, as you can see, I bring uke to me - I do not follow him to where he wants to fall.

In the tenkan version much of the same applies but I do not cross the centre - I meet it and try to stay with it. In this particular version I first enter to the tenkan-ho point,then extend uke's arm out - much like tenkan-ho - leading with my whole body, then turn once he is stretched out to the maximum. When stretching him out, if you look carefully, his body turns slightly such that his free striking arm moves away from me. I think about that when I do the technique. Also, once I start the technique and gain control of uke's wrist, I do not think he is in a comfortable position to deliver a kick.

senshincenter
05-24-2005, 11:58 AM
FYI: Moriteru Ueshiba (Aikikai Hombu) has an example of this technique on Tape Four of the "Aikido" series.

In this version of the technique, I think one will see what most have experienced in one form or the other. Specifically, I am noting the attempt to crosscheck Uke's cross-lateral arm by positing (through various means) the homo-lateral side of Uke’s body (at the arm) in an obstructing position. To be sure, various locks and/or torques are used to keep the homo-lateral side in this obstructing position (and, of course, we should mention that in many cases there are no locks and/or torques to keep the homo-lateral side in an obstructing position), however, it is from within this type of architecture that questions like Rob's arise. That is to say, we have seen all this before and yet these questions remain legitimate avenues for investigation and/or concern.

Why is that? I would suggest that a key ingredient is missing – it is that ingredient that is most responsible for allowing Rob (or anyone) the capacity to nevertheless nullify the obstructing homo-lateral side in order to bring the cross-lateral weapons on target. What is missing is that there is no force acting on the cross-lateral side itself such that it is effectively being positioned on the far side of the homo-lateral side. In order to maintain this crosscheck, and/or in order to have this crosscheck operate at the apex of its performance, two types of lateral energy are required. First, there is the energy used to move the homo-lateral side in front of the cross-lateral side, and second, there is the energy used to keep the cross-lateral side behind the homo-lateral side. It is because this second energy is often missing, and/or merely assumed to be present in the first energy, that Uke is able to come around (particularly with circular strikes) the effected homo-lateral side and bring his/her cross-lateral weapons on target.

Note: I do not believe that a reliance upon pain compliance (i.e. locks and torques) and/or upon an expectation that posits Uke as being in possession of a mind that is easily captured (i.e. atemi) are good substitutes for this missing second energy. Such tactics are much more likely to succeed when they are less needed. Meaning, they are at their best when they are connected to this second energy and not attempting to substitute themselves for it.

Most of us will say the same thing regarding how the cross-lateral side of Uke’s body is being addressed in this technique. However, because of our training cultures, most of us will assume that the second energy is merely present in the first energy. The problem raised by Rob, however, clearly shows that it is not. In Aikido training culture, due to reasons of safety and/or in order to address learning curves, we often come to unknowingly move our bodies in quite unnatural ways. It is one such unnatural way that is disguising the lack of the second energy needed to keep Uke’s cross-lateral side behind his/her homo-lateral side. I mentioned Moriteru’s version of this technique because I feel it is a good representation of how our training culture can work to make things that are unnatural appear to be natural (and thus correct).

The unnatural movement that I am specifically referring to in this case is our tendency to act and/or react as a top – as an object with a single/central vertical axis of rotation. It is because we act thusly that our cross-lateral side is “influenced” every time our homo-lateral side is being manipulated. What Rob is taking advantage of is the body’s true natural structure – having no single and/or central vertical axis of rotation. In Moriteru’s version, he simply thrusts the homo-lateral arm forward, in front of uke. As a result, Uke, now acting like a top, moves his cross-lateral arm into a symmetrical position on the other side of the same orbit. Uke appears to be checked, but this is really just a cultural check and not really a physical check. In truth, the body has many points of articulation and so it has many opportunities to address the thrusting of the homo-lateral arm forward in such a way that the cross-lateral arm will not be placed in a symmetrical orbit on the other side of the body. This is precisely what one achieves whenever one is able to strike with the cross-lateral weapons and/or reinforce the affected arm and/or counter the grab/lock being employed by Nage.

It is not that the tactic of establishing such a symmetrical orbit is flawed or inferior to anything else, it is that one’s attempts to achieve it are often more grounded in a training culture than in a physical existence. What would happen in a physical reality should Uke’s arm merely be thrust forward is that the shoulder hinge would absorb much of the energy. For an Uke that wished to strike with his/her cross-lateral weapons, the ribs’ capability to bend and the capacity for the torso to twist, would provide all the necessary outlets to not have the thrusting energy affect the cross-lateral side of the body symmetrically. When one adds the capacity to move the body into several adjacent planes, such thrusting energy can easily lose all the necessary resistance needed to have any effect on Uke’s body.

In my opinion, it is this second energy that is missing – that is key: The energy that keeps Uke’s cross-lateral side behind his/her homo-lateral side. The notion of using an orbiting affect is sound, only how one attempts to achieve this cannot rely upon a training culture tendency. In my opinion, as a clue, we can see a training culture tendency at work whenever we are able to note the following:

a. Uke’s weight is not upon a single pivot point (i.e. the front foot). We should not see Uke on two feet, or on one foot and one set of toes, and/or on two sets of toes. In order to have a true orbiting affect working, a single vertical axis of rotation must be established at the front foot and for that to occur Uke’s center of gravity must be on the Nage-side of the front foot.

b. The te-sabaki must achieve two things: It must lend itself to establishing Uke’s weight upon a single vertical axis of rotation at the front foot, and it must address the capacity for the shoulder joint to absorb energy. In order to do these things, in the first case, we must see some sort of “absorption” or Yin aspect to Nage’s handwork, such that Uke’s weight can completely shifted forward onto the front foot. In the second case, we must see some sort of lock that will affect the relative angles of the ball and socket joint at the shoulder. I would say, without these relative angles being properly addressed no orbit can be initiated.

c. Because weight is being shifted forward onto Uke’s front foot and because this establishes a single vertical axis of rotation at Uke’s front foot, Uke should never be standing still in the same vertical plan and/or turning in the same vertical plane. Thus, we should not see any of the following if a true physical orbit is established: 1. We should not see Nage moving forward relative to Uke; 2. We should not see Nage moving across Uke; and 3. We should not see Nage traveling around Uke.

Will post videos soon – hopefully tonight.

dmv

senshincenter
05-24-2005, 10:54 PM
I tried to go ahead and cancel a few birds with one stone. I've been thinking about having some sort of technical video page on our web site where issues like this one are addressed for the benefit of further research, etc. This gave me an opportunity to play with some things that I have yet to use, etc. (e.g. voice over), but have been wanting to play with. Ultimately I want to have something very much like what I ended up doing here only the final presentation will be a lot more streamlined and thus better presented. So please grant me some leeway concerning some of the things I've tried to do with these videos. I've tried to experiment with some things. Hopefully, one day, these kind of videos will be posted in a much more user-friendly manner and with things like graphics, etc. For now, this is what I got - apologies.

As I see it, one can look at what I've written in this thread so as to accompany what one is seeing and hearing in the videos. In short, I think there are three primary ways in which the cross-lateral side of Uke's body is addressed in Hanmi-handachi Shiho-nage. They are: Angle of Cancellation (checking the homo-lateral arm and leg and establishing an orbit that symmetrically places the cross-lateral side behind the homo-lateral side); Angle of Deviation (by which Nage moves out of the way of anything that might not be checked); and Angle of Deflection (by which Nage is capable of addressing anything that was not checked and/or that he/she could not get out of the way of).

After this, one may still be struck but one will have greatly put the odds against Uke coming out on top.

You can see the videos here:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/Shiho%20Nage%20Experiment/shihoexperiment.html

Rupert Atkinson
05-24-2005, 11:15 PM
The video link I posted above may soon disappear. The following one links to those old vids but is more permanent.

http://aikido-in-korea.com/

... and click on My Aikido Movies.

It links to my angelfire site, which I cannot view in Korea as the govt. has blocked angelfire.

akiy
05-24-2005, 11:19 PM
A bit off-topic, but pertinent to the videos portion of this thread, Google is offering a beta program for uploading videos onto their servers:

https://upload.video.google.com/

Might be good for those without tons of bandwidth available...

-- Jun

Rupert Atkinson
05-24-2005, 11:28 PM
David,

Nice videos - very well thought out and laid out.

Rupert

maikerus
05-25-2005, 12:11 AM
David...well done. Thanks.

--Michael

Charlie
05-25-2005, 12:58 AM
David,

Nicely laid out. Looks like it covered all the points. Nice production with the voice over! You're right...looks like this could open up a whole new way to ask and answer a question.

Rupert Atkinson
05-25-2005, 08:10 PM
A bit off-topic, but pertinent to the videos portion of this thread, Google is offering a beta program for uploading videos onto their servers:

https://upload.video.google.com/

Might be good for those without tons of bandwidth available...

-- Jun

I tried it. I uploaded 400MB of stuff. Now, I have to wait while they 'verify' it - I think they are in the midst of creating their system so I don't know what to expect. I think they expect to get comminsion from people who charge viewing fees - I opted for no fee so guess I'll be a low priority for them.