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Embarrassed
05-10-2005, 03:46 AM
A month & a half ago, I introduce a girlfriend to aikido. Prior to that, of course, I "sold" to her this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art. At the dojo she paid $150 for the joining fee and $120 for a month's lessons. She did enjoy the first couple of lessons learning the usual mae ukemi, ushiro ukemi and ikkyo. She was paired with another beginner and was under the charge of an instructor and seniors.

She was contemplating on buying a hakama as ladies are required to wear one at our dojo. Then at about the same time the usual instructor decided not to teach on his regular class and he was replaced by a more senior ranked albeit assistant instructor. Now this guy, who does not take kindly to teaching or training with newbies, took an immediate interest to teach and correct her. The first time she trained with him, he hurted her shoulder with a nikkyo pin and proceeded to give her a massage on her shoulder and back without obtaining her consent. She skipped a couple of lessons to nurse her injury. When she came back, she paid $120 for another month's lessons. During the class, she came to his attention for correction and again this time he injured her with a solid pin to the ground. Again, the usual apologies and the unwarranted massage. Normally she would join the rest of us for after class drinks. That time she didn't and I have not seen her since and she did not answer my calls. Another lady senpai did manage to contact her and she told that she is not ever coming back to the dojo without giving any reasons.

I noted a pattern of sexual harassment but in martial art physical contacts amongst genders are common. One of the ladies has also felt this was the case (perhaps she experienced it too) and has also stopped coming to class. Have you ladies experienced this before? How do you deal with it legally?

Embarrassed

James Davis
05-10-2005, 05:34 PM
If I were you, I would go with my friend to find another dojo. An aikido dojo should not be a place where people are intentionally hurt or disrespected. :sorry: Someone who "doesn't take kindly to teaching or training with newbies" is not interested in seeing his dojo grow. Please don't give up on aikido based on the actions of one jerk!

Janet Rosen
05-10-2005, 06:42 PM
James, couldn't have said it better myself.
"Legally" ??? as in to sue, or as in without breaking the law.
I dunno, I'm a loudmouthed middleaged broad and find it pretty easy to say "keep your F..... hands to yourself" (yeah maybe not very aiki.....) but many women, esp if younger or in a position where they feel a power differential by virtue of being newbies, will tend to shut up and vote with their feet.

Chuck.Gordon
05-11-2005, 02:03 AM
I've got heartburn over a couple of points in Embarrassed's note.

First, no instructor should be hurting beginners. Period.
Second, no instructor should be engaged in inappropriate contact (ie; unsolicited massage ...)

Leave that dojo behind and don't look back. If it's happening to your (ex?) galpal, it's probably happening to other women as well.

Third, $120 for a month!!! Geez. What a ripoff.

And yes, Janet, telling someone to keep his paws to himself is PERFECTLY aiki, as long as it's done with intent, engagement and it utterly dominates the recipient of the statement.

Chuck

kironin
05-11-2005, 02:33 AM
Now this guy, who does not take kindly to teaching or training with newbies,

There is a special low low dark level in Aiki Hell for someone with this attitude who poses as an instructor.

as to the rest, what Chuck said.

I think legal action would be difficult at this point, however the head instructor should be informed of why she is leaving.

SeiserL
05-11-2005, 08:35 AM
IMHO, this may be sexist or chivalry, but maybe a few of you guys should give this assistant instructor a good talking to. I personally think its our job to keep our Dojo safe for people to practice. Sorry, I am old and old school.

Ron Tisdale
05-11-2005, 09:09 AM
This is pretty disgusting...

I could *possibly* see $120/month in a really large city with high rents...but a fee in the hundreds just to *join*!!! BS...there is no way that is justified.

If I was your girlfriend, I probably wouldn't call you back either...you take her somewhere where they abuse her, and you do nothing? I'm kinda with Lynn here...that guy needs a visit...

RT

MatthewJones
05-11-2005, 04:22 PM
These kind of guys hide out in their little dojos, charge outrageous prices and never seem to hurt large men??? They also rarely travel to other dojos and when they do they are the most submissive because they don't want to challenge anyone. Typical pattern, seen it many times in all martial arts.

RUNNN AWWWAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

giriasis
05-12-2005, 08:05 AM
First, you need to talk to the head instructor and let him/her know what is going on in his dojo by his assitant instructors. If this happened to your girlfriend suggest that she go in and tell the head instructor why she left and that you will go with her. Or is there are senior female student in the dojo that she can talk to, who can then speak to the head instructor? The sensei should be made aware that this might be the instructors m.o.: "hurt" the woman then "offer" a "massage". That's pretty twisted and DOES NOT BELONG IN A DOJO. If this is not dealt with it will continue. The school is losing members, female members especially over this.

The best legal thing you can do is -- speak up.

Second, this is not the kind of physicality that people agree to in a martial art -- i.e. unsolicited and unwelcomed "massages". However, the shoulder injury is, unfortunately.

Third, I'll second or third Janet's point that these women are voting with their feet and just not coming back. I also agree with the utter newbie status of these women that they probably don't feel like they have a "right" to assert themselves. This is truely unfortunate.

Forth, injuring beginners is totally unacceptable, male or female for that matter, my sensei has kicked high ranking dan students out of the dojo because they failed to care whether or not they injured a beginner or someome extremely junior to them.

Finally, if you get a defensive head instructor who is not willing to address the situation, who doesn't believe you, who starts to take the side of this "assistant instructor"... Then RUN...RUN AWAY...FAST

jk
05-12-2005, 10:52 AM
This reminds me of a dojo situation I've been in as a student, where the instructor had a habit of injuring people. I would add to the chorus of "RUN AWAY." After reading Lynn's and Ron's posts, I'm ashamed I didn't do more to confront that particular instructor. And yes, I could have taken him down...

Tim Gerrard
05-12-2005, 10:56 AM
IMHO, this may be sexist or chivalry, but maybe a few of you guys should give this assistant instructor a good talking to. I personally think its our job to keep our Dojo safe for people to practice. Sorry, I am old and old school.

Damn right, the fact is,that this guy has cost you a relationship (sorry if I'm assuming you're a guy) or at least a friendship because he couldn't keep his hands to himself, and that is totally unacceptable. To be honest I'd be tempted to do a bit more... But at least talk to the head instructor about what has happened. :grr: :mad: :grr:

a female perspective
05-12-2005, 12:15 PM
I noted a pattern of sexual harassment but in martial art physical contacts amongst genders are common. One of the ladies has also felt this was the case (perhaps she experienced it too) and has also stopped coming to class. Have you ladies experienced this before?

Here's my two cents:

While you may not be participating in the actual sexual harassment, you are condoning it by not stepping up and speaking out against it when it occurs. As a female (and one who works in a male-dominated field), this is something that I realize can and will occur but I personally am not afraid to stand up and denounce this sort of behavior. Many women, unfortunately, will not do this. Having asked this female to your dojo to train, you have some responsibility for her. Not in the sense that you are responsible for her physical fitness(knowledge and acceptance of accidents/injuries are the price you pay to participate in physically demanding sports) , but you have shaped her expectations as to what she should and will expect. Regardless of your rank, you are her senior and part of being a senior to someone is to look out for those below you, which may mean something as simple as not applying a technique at full speed/force to speaking out when something is wrong. She obviously wanted to believe you as she returned only to be injured/attacked again. No wonder she will not return your calls. When you did not act to address this actions, she believed that this was the accepted way of doing things and decided to leave a disturbing situation while she was still able. Very smart on her part.

As to the physical contact, I have played many sports on coed teams that involve physical contact and there is a big difference between physical contact and unwanted physical gestures/advances. I have never seen a sport where "back massages" are part of the normal physical contact.

What you should have done:

You should have spoken up with the first occurrence. Whether you do it in private or in public is up to you. Try to approach it in a non-threatening verbal manner. Many people will back down once they are confronted. Talk to the head of the organization about your concerns. He may not be aware that this is happening. If you are afraid to go alone, ask around. Chances are there are others who are also afraid to say anything without someone else. If the situation persists, leave. You cannot be fully focused on your training if this is in the back of your mind. This is obviously not the place for you nor anybody else.

I hope you will stand up and speak out against this. If not for your own personal morals, then for the women who are too scared to for themselves. Sexual harassment is unacceptable anywhere. Awareness and action are the key.

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2005, 01:09 PM
After reading Lynn's and Ron's posts, I'm ashamed I didn't do more to confront that particular instructor.

Please don't be ashamed...action would suit the situation better. Shame may be a good motivator, I don't know...but actions will certainly have a better affect. The shame is all on that instructor!

Best,
Ron

Chris Li
05-12-2005, 02:52 PM
Second, this is not the kind of physicality that people agree to in a martial art -- i.e. unsolicited and unwelcomed "massages". However, the shoulder injury is, unfortunately.

Well, a massage in and of itself isn't necessarily that unusual. I've trained at dojo in both the US and Japan where I got unsolicited massages - I don't ever recall being asked for any kind of consent. What's important is not the massage itself, but the context and intent of the action.

I bring this up because there has been more than one post stating the opinion that massage is in and of itself an unusual form of physical contact in the dojo.

Best,

Chris

Chuck.Gordon
05-12-2005, 04:21 PM
Well, a massage in and of itself isn't necessarily that unusual.


Good point, and in my dojo, massage is taught (on a small scale) as well as implemented. If someone gets ouched, Em will grab 'em, throw 'em down and work on the owie.

However, context IS everything.

My take on the sitch described above was that the injury was intentionally given specifically to lead to the massage, and that there was no consent and that the context was creepy for the recipient.

Hell, I'm perfectly happy to get my bad shoulder, bad foot, bad back, bad etc worked on, but for the instructor to intentionally injure a student just so he could engage in inappropriate touching ... ech.

Chuck

Chris Li
05-12-2005, 05:31 PM
My take on the sitch described above was that the injury was intentionally given specifically to lead to the massage, and that there was no consent and that the context was creepy for the recipient.

Hell, I'm perfectly happy to get my bad shoulder, bad foot, bad back, bad etc worked on, but for the instructor to intentionally injure a student just so he could engage in inappropriate touching ... ech.

Chuck

Of course. Still a couple of things come to mind:

1) We're only hearing one side of the story - it could be a misunderstanding, or even an instructor who is creepy without any particular malicious intent.
2) We're actually not even hearing even one side of the story because the tale is being told second hand and the person telling it admits themselves that the woman refused to state her reasons for not returning to the dojo.

Best,

Chris

Janet Rosen
05-12-2005, 06:16 PM
We won't even go into the fact that a fresh soft tissue injury should not be massaged....I LOVE touching but this whole incident was just creepy and wrong.

giriasis
05-12-2005, 07:17 PM
Also Chris the other key word I used was "unwelcomed", so please don't quote me selectively to make a point. That one little, tiny, detail of a word put my point in agreement with yours not contrary. I agree with Janet regarding the soft-tissue injury and there is a whole definent creep factor going on here.

This goes back to the whole question of "how do we keep women in the dojo?" Need I remind you guys (yes, you men on this website) that you always ask, "why do women leave a dojo." This is one example why a woman leaves a dojo.

One example to help keep a woman in a dojo is do things such as: listening and believing what his ex-girlfriend said is true and that the line was crossed for her. Determining whether something crosses the line depends on the gut reaction of the person invovled. Intent and context is a big part of that, but intent does not have to be spoken actually, often it is not spoken. So we're still stuck with someone's gut reaction to the situation. If the situation felt wrong for her, it was wrong for her. Who are you to say what she can or can not feel? That gut reaction should be respected and that person should have an avenue of redress, which apparently she did not feel that she had hence her leaving the dojo and not wanting to talk about it. She should be respected enough where she feels comfortable talking to the head sensei or at least a sempai female in the dojo. And respected enough that the head sensei will actually attempt to bring a resolution to the situation. What kind of resolution will depend upon what the head sensei, who is hopefully unbiased, determines as appropriate. She should not be told that "she's just imaging it" or "she's misunderstanding the situation." These are dismissive comments. Instead, it should be "if you felt uncomfortable (validate her feelings), why not talk to sensei about it and do you want me to go with you?"(and suggest a way to address the situation) .

A sensei should know and needs to know that one of their students working on their behalf has a "creep" factor to him, whether malicious or not, and that this "creep" factor has the potential of crossing the line with some people, in this case a woman. He needs to know this so that he can watch out and make sure he doesn't cross the line -- again. It's real sh*ty that the woman in question felt that she couldn't even talk about it. Apparently, she tried to go back after the first incident but it happened again the second time she returned. I don't blame her, especially if she didn't feel like the dojo was addressing the issue appropriately enough. Maybe she won't talk about because someone in the dojo dismissed her concerns??? Perhaps they ignored her situation and just thought SHE was misunderstanding the situation. Maybe she felt like her concern could not be addressed in the dojo? Who knows? We don't. But, I bet you the original poster has a pretty darn good idea what happened and what is going on in his dojo. I'm sure he'll do a great job, as he has heard the first hand account of the situation, and he will figure out an appropriate response to the situation if not to the present on but to any future one as well.

Chris Li
05-12-2005, 07:53 PM
Also Chris the other key word I used was "unwelcomed", so please don't quote me selectively to make a point. That one little, tiny, detail of a word put my point in agreement with yours not contrary.

Well if you noticed the quote, than you noticed that the word "unwelcomed" was included when I quoted you, so I'm not sure how that's "selective quoting". In any case, I re-read your quote and my impression remains the same, although that may not have been what you meant to imply.

Also, I'd note that the friend hasn't heard the first hand account - so far as we know nobody has. I never said that she had imagined the situation or misunderstood it - or that she should be told so. What I said was that we have only one side of the story from a secondhand source.

Best,

Chris

Embarrassed
05-12-2005, 10:03 PM
Well, a massage in and of itself isn't necessarily that unusual. I've trained at dojo in both the US and Japan where I got unsolicited massages - I don't ever recall being asked for any kind of consent. What's important is not the massage itself, but the context and intent of the action.

I bring this up because there has been more than one post stating the opinion that massage is in and of itself an unusual form of physical contact in the dojo.

Best,

Chris

Thank you all for the replies and "encouragements".

I am posting from a country where Islam is a prominent religion. The assistant instructor himself is a Muslim and a scholar in Islamic studies; my platonic girlfriend who was injured is a Muslim and my lady sempai who has just "run away" is a Muslim. Although I am not a Muslim, I and in general all races in this cosmopolitan country have lived to be sensible to each other's belief and culture and I know for a fact that physical contact in the massage render by one gender to another (other than a husband & wife relationship, close blood relation) is not permitted without consent.

A physical confrontation with this guy is out of the question as long as we (my dojo mates & I) want to train and practice aikido in this country. I am hoping that the dojo owners would come across this thread and know that it relates to the situation there and take appropriate action. Other than the attitude and lack of spiritual maturity of this particular assistant instructor, the training atmosphere in my dojo is extremely good and positive but if this is allowed to go on more and more of us will be walking out the door.

Perhaps I will send a link to this thread to the dojo owners ;)

Thank again for the advice.

Embarrassed

Embarrassed
05-12-2005, 10:34 PM
This goes back to the whole question of "how do we keep women in the dojo?" Need I remind you guys (yes, you men on this website) that you always ask, "why do women leave a dojo." This is one example why a woman leaves a dojo.


Many years ago and in a dojo that had since closed, there was a pretty petite girl (a law student at that time, I think) who was also as aikido junkie as the rest of us there. The instructor would go about correcting our techniques and when he did, all of us would sit in seiza to watch (it was a small dojo). He took a keen interest to correct her on connections and contact and each time he did, we all knew what the hakama was hiding besides his legs. She too ran away from aikido.

MikeLogan
05-12-2005, 11:28 PM
Chris, I appreciate your devil's advocacy, but it begs the question not of who received the unsolicited massages in your experiences, but who delivered them. I've wondered, and I'll wonder again, whether men are generally easy, and therefore less apt to observe abuse, or we observe it, and ignore it out of some role we've been dealt, or a mix of both. (In most cases at anyhow, and I won't italicize 'most')

Then again it is just as easy to assume within the confines of the idealized realm of aikido that you've received unsolicited massage by just as many attentive yet sweaty men, and for fun I will italicize idealized ;)

Just feeling like trouble on a thursday evening.

(and Janet, I wanted to second the thought that such a strong response would be aiki when encountering an offence that purposefully withholds commitment and energy. You have to bring both into the situation to resolve it on your own terms) (in my opinion anyhow)

gnite all, rest well and happy training.

logan.

Guest poster
05-13-2005, 12:39 AM
This goes back to the whole question of "how do we keep women in the dojo?" Need I remind you guys (yes, you men on this website) that you always ask, "why do women leave a dojo." This is one example why a woman leaves a dojo.


I am wondering if what your saying is sexist anti-male. I am reading a generalization of one guy's action results in the condemnation of all men in and outside the dojo. Not all men are scoundrels, or walking erector sets wanting to take advantage instantly of any vulnerable woman who enters the dojo. If I read correctly it was one male who make the woman feel uncomfortable, and not the entire male population of the dojo.

Per the rest of what you said, I don't see the typical dojo to be a bar, where all woman who enter in naivete are the nights prey.

I understand the difficulty woman have in society, and a nature's design. I am aware they must be vigilant against unwanted sexual advances, and harassment all to various degrees. I don't think really this is the pristine reason why woman leave the dojo. I wonder if in many cases it is just an excuse to leave the dojo out of embarrassment. Woman are not powerless to stop or to change the average sexual advancement that is being discussed, and maintain attendance if they choose.

The first post talked of all sexual harassment law. I am assuming the first poster was directing his or her comments to the rules of sexual harassment in the work place. Proposing sexual harassment is a pretty strong action. I am not sure if would apply in a dojo, as it would in the work place. This attitude bothers me a bit.

First of all, there is another woman who stayed in the dojo, known as a Sempai and she stayed. She didn't leave because she felt sexually harassed. One other woman was new who left because she felt uncomfortable, and possibly a second for the same reason. Question, what where the reasons behind men leaving the dojo? How many woman applied to the dojo, and how many woman are in the dojo?

Second of all, why didn't she just say she didn't want to be thrown so hard, and that (unwanted) messages- attempts to message was off limits. Why wasn't she assertive in taking a power control position of the situation either aggressively or passively. Why did she did speak out, or complained to the Sensei? She is after all paying skyscraper prices for months of lessons and enrollment fees.

Finally, why didn't the other woman(s) in the class read the situation and stop it before it started? According to the poster it was suspected the unwanted advancements had happened previously to another woman. Why didn't the female Sempai warn her not to train with that guy, and prevent the situation. The both have trained in the same dojo of a while. Why did the woman go out for drinks the first time assuming "the guy" would also go, despite her being uncomfortable with the first injury and unwanted message? Why did she come back the second time, and pay the outrageous fee of $120.00 for another month? I don't think there was any action or words that took place initially after the first incident to prevent a second uncomfortable sexual harassment situation that is said to have occurred. Or even warrant litigation in relation sexual harassment. Why not threaten litigation related to the injury being of malice intent and harm. I think that would be much more of a successful case. But then why was only sexual harassment brought up in the story?

I think the story is just that a story. It is of bogus design to bust the tea bags of men who are seen as a dominate threat in the martial arts world due to their numbers. This makes some woman in martial arts uncomfortable. If they had it their way woman would be the dominate number and threat. This is propaganda designed to attack all men which a group of woman feel insecure, uncomfortable and jealous because martial arts is dominated by men and they feel they can't compete with men.

Through the years this story has been recycled in so many different ways as an attack on men because they make up most of the martial arts class everywhere. Most woman don't have interest in doing martial arts, it doesn't appeal to them. Martial arts isn't something the majority of woman want to pursue. It isn't something they are attracted too. If this where the case then you would see scores of dojos filled exclusively with woman from all walks of life.

Let's look at what woman are into and where you find the most woman. Woman are concerned about their figures. Classes like Aerobics, Pilate's, Yoga, Tae Bo, Ballet are predominately woman attended. Woman have an invest interest in their health and how they look, and feel. They have little interest in learning how to take down an attacker, or win a combative contest. Certainly most woman are not interested in being the greatest fighter. They are not interested in fighting, combat, or war. They have different interests and different things appeal to them other then martial activities.

Those woman who are interest in martial arts, like the men who are interested in what woman do, have to make adjustments. I am not saying if sexual harassment happens to either sex they should stand for it. Rather those who are uncomfortable because they feel out numbered in male to female ratio and visa versa must adjust if they are going to be successful in an opposite sexes activity.

MikeLogan
05-13-2005, 01:11 AM
Hmm, so much for feeling like trouble on a thursday evening.

So, ANON 73.43.72, you decide to join the conversation by posting rather incensing remarks to say the least, and won't back it up by posting under your user name? I'm guessing you're trying to make it that much easier for your argument to be unbalanced and tossed on its head in that action alone, or let me refer to it as inaction.

As for what you actually posted, I don't think we have the time to actually observe, dissect, and reject the aggressively immature, as well as insecure basis most if not all of your statements were made upon.

If what I am saying sounds wrong and idiotic, take just 2 minutes to imagine how in the world it could be correct. Not how it is correct, but only how it could be. After that go back to thinking me an idiot. Apply this technique to the original post, and perhaps you could see how the original poster perceived the event, who may even possibly be the person who actually experienced everything described firsthand.

Smack me if I went too far with this one folks. Anon#2, you do know I'll take you more seriously if you actually post from a username, but at this point you might just wait until next time this topic comes up.

pm me if you want to flame, ANON#2, if you can pm anonymously that is.

logan.

happysod
05-13-2005, 03:24 AM
On the slightly side issue of massages in the dojo in general, yes I've been in dojos where every starry-eyed sensei also thinks the best thing to do for bruising is to dig deep with gay abandon - just don't eh.

At the very least, have the decency to ask and to graciously accept a refusal, the last time this happened to me I treated the rampant massager as I would any other attacker. By practicing within an aikido dojo I have given tacit consent to be bent, dropped, hit and generally pretzled, but I draw the line at inept fondling.

This is propaganda designed to attack all men which a group of woman feel insecure, uncomfortable and jealous because martial arts is dominated by men and they feel they can't compete with men. I had to read this twice before I realised it was a serious post and hadn't inadvertently escaped from the humour section. I just love reading written diatribes which first of all set up the argument they wish to counter then provide a wonderful insight into their own take on that dreaded "other species" the opposite sex - your mum must be dead proud!

ruthmc
05-13-2005, 04:05 AM
I am posting from a country where Islam is a prominent religion. The assistant instructor himself is a Muslim and a scholar in Islamic studies; my platonic girlfriend who was injured is a Muslim and my lady sempai who has just "run away" is a Muslim.
The religion of those at your dojo has nothing to do with this situation. Crossing lines and permitting abuse is simply not done in a good dojo.

A physical confrontation with this guy is out of the question as long as we (my dojo mates & I) want to train and practice aikido in this country.
He's really that powerful is he? :confused:

I am hoping that the dojo owners would come across this thread and know that it relates to the situation there and take appropriate action.
That is a very cowardly attitude.

Other than the attitude and lack of spiritual maturity of this particular assistant instructor, the training atmosphere in my dojo is extremely good and positive but if this is allowed to go on more and more of us will be walking out the door.
It's such a great place to train, but there's an instructor with a bad attitude who causes people to leave and who everyone is afraid of? :grr:

Perhaps I will send a link to this thread to the dojo owners ;)
No. Do something about it. It is your responsibility as a human being to stand up for your friends.

Face your fear and do it - it won't be as bad as you think it will be and you have a great opportunity here to turn a bad situation into a good one.

I wish you courage,

Ruth

jk
05-13-2005, 05:22 AM
This is addressed to the thread starter... I may have a good idea which instructor you're referring to. Please PM or e-mail me; I'm willing to help in any way I can.

Embarrassed
05-13-2005, 07:36 AM
This is addressed to the thread starter... I may have a good idea which instructor you're referring to. Please PM or e-mail me; I'm willing to help in any way I can.

Mr. Kuo,

If you have a strong clue as to who the instructor is, perhaps you can help by highlighting this thread to him. Tell him the students are hurting but staying for the sake of the innocent - the dojo owners and the chief instructor. This thread was posted anonymous to avoid any bad publicity to the dojo and its organization and I shall remain anon for the sake of my sempai and kohai who still train there. From where you posted, you would know that there are many splinter aikido groups here and the political opponents would capitalize on this bad publicity to hurt the owners

If the person is not who you think he is, then you might lose a friend and gain an enemy. Either way you will lose. Technically the subject person may be strong but spiritually he is not, otherwise he would not be injuring the students. He might not take kindly to your advice even he is the guilty one; and temperamentally he would take it out on the students who he thought have posted here - this I am sure will happen.

I was seeking more for a legal re-dress for my girlfriend.

Regards

Jon
05-13-2005, 08:36 AM
Smack me if I went too far with this one folks. Anon#2, you do know I'll take you more seriously if you actually post from a username, but at this point you might just wait until next time this topic comes up.

pm me if you want to flame, ANON#2, if you can pm anonymously that is.

logan.

How I am I to know if this story was fact or fiction, no names or places included. The tone of Giri seemed sexist blaming all men for the action of one. If you take a moment and read through the thread objectively it might be revealed to you that this thread sounds very anti-Aikido. That Aikido classes are full of men perverted sick men pouncing unwanted advancements on unsuspecting woman who are fleeing the dojos in hoards.

Why didn't you capitalize the "L" in your name?

Nick Simpson
05-13-2005, 08:51 AM
Bottle him.

giriasis
05-13-2005, 11:14 AM
Bottle him.

No, just ignore him.

...


To the original poster

As to what legal avenues you can take? I doubt explaining the United States laws on sexual harassment in the workplace will do you any good. If want to take legal action, you will need to speak to an attorney or lawyer in your country to see if there is any avenues for redress under the laws of your country. I doubt citing any laws from the U.S. would help the situation.

The best action you can take is for you, yourself, along with your other dojo members who are concerned, to approach and talk to your sensei about this. Let him know. Don't just show him this thread it wouldn't help the situation, and it might up set him that your discussion this issue on the internet. These kinds of delicate should and must be handled within the dojo. If you truely care about your sensei and the owners of the dojo, don't just stick around, DO SOMETHING, and let them know what is going on.

jon
05-13-2005, 11:46 AM
For the more sophisticated and acute readers. Let us sift thought this with our well trained skeptical and rational open minds as we should do when reading anything of importance, shall we. Let us take the first long sentence and give it a good hard look at it. It is a Vegas neon sign begging us to come in and buy it. Therefore, let us brows at it and see what we are buying.

A month & a half ago, I introduce a girlfriend to aikido. Prior to that, of course, I "sold" to her this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art.

I find it very interesting the phrase "I 'sold' to her this wonderful art of peace, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art." . This isn't the author's own personal experience, it is told from his or her 3rd party point view. A person who signs on in anonymity, yet then signs the post as "Embarrassed." If this is a Vegas neon sign, I don't know what is!

The first sentence makes it really hard to give the story (aims at gaining apathy) credibility. It has earmarks of too many devices designed to persuade the reader the cause the subject is a just, thus mustering support of an apparent injustice against a woman in order to insight credibility.


She was contemplating on buying a hakama as ladies are required to wear one at our dojo.

This passage strikes me odd, and smells of a planted persuasive device to gain credibility and believability. Here is why. Here is the first point made, of several, that the woman is willing to invest a good sum of money into the class, and that she is displaying her commitment to the class monetarily. We all can relate to that and be in her shoes regardless of gender. It also indicates this woman is economically secure, and self sufficient. Why does that point need to be brought up several times the woman was going to pay high prices for classes and invest in a Hakama? Mull that over a bit, if it isn't already clear.

Then what follows next is this "usually" behavior of the "unusual" male head Sensei.

Then at about the same time the usual instructor decided not to teach on his regular class and he was replaced by a more senior ranked albeit assistant instructor.

A tag team of sexual abusers, in concert? Is this what is being implied here? Is it a device to set up what is to follow?
Is this a very sublet attack to incite a injustice to evoke a emotional response. To win over thus convincing the reader the story is valid? What ever it is it really is odd and unconventional sounding.


Now this guy, who does not take kindly to teaching or training with newbies, took an immediate interest to teach and correct her.

A red flag goes off. Another dubious commonality is presented. It is universal, it is something we all can relate to of any gender. The #2 man in the dojo is a bully and hazer of new students. Which unspoken is allowed by the Sensei. Here enters the villain, Vaudeville booing is heard through out the house, another device is planted. Also, the word newbies catches my attention, as that term is used more specifically on the net to indicate a new user, and not a Aikido student where we employ an impressive vocabulary of Japanese terms and words.

It also sets the woman up as a sympathetic victim, note word choice as well. According to Embarrassed the woman was new to the class and was subjected to the "unusual" direction a male the author terms as a "this guy." Yet, the author uses respectful titles for another woman in the class. Another lady senpai [QUOTE]. The author of the story uses negative and implicating word choice to describe who she feels is a bad guy, "[he]doesn't take kindly" She goes on and says "to students, but takes interest in the woman instantly." The use of "the woman" is again an odd word choice and may be an indicator of a fictional character or the author herself.

I would say the phased discussed alerts to loaded for bear. It is an affront to males who are violent, brutish, and insensitive cads who make it a point of taking advantage of the female sex, sexually. Remember the first part of the story where the author starts of with "this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art." Place that with the quote above and we can see the author's device of contempt for Aikido and men.

Next is the support for the above contempt. The act of injury is then described followed by an unwarranted message. But what follows later is indicates an odd sequences of events that should have the critical reader looking more closely at the validity of the story, as it is told.

[QUOTE]
The first time she trained with him, he hurted her shoulder with a nikkyo pin and proceeded to give her a massage on her shoulder and back without obtaining her consent.

...she came to his attention for correction and again this time he injured her with a solid pin to the ground. Again, the usual apologies and the unwarranted massage.

The we are presented with a contradiction that is oddly placed. Here again after the violence of injury which is "not" suppose to happen in Aikido, as non-violence is it's main premise, and possible sexual harassment she returns to the dojo once again, and puts down another $120.00 showing her commitment to the class.
When she came back, she paid $120 for another month's lessons. Showing she intends to pursue the class for yet another month of lessons despite her previous injuries and uncomfortably. And she has gone out possibly with the "guy" for drinks with the other members of the class after her injury!
Normally she would join the rest of us for after class drinks.


It is implied the intended injury was a device to get an "unwarranted message" that was sexually inappropriate, yet the message seems to have healed her enough to endure the pain to go out drinking with the rest of the gang. There is no mention of the severity of the injury, or if she had gone to a doctor immediately after the injury. Yet, she skipped a couple of months of class to nurse her injuries, so she could return to the class.
She skipped a couple of lessons to nurse her injury. An odd and unclear sequences and timing of events, that should draw suspicion.



She told that she is not ever coming back to the dojo without giving any reasons.

I noted a pattern of sexual harassment but in martial art physical contacts amongst genders are common. One of the ladies has also felt this was the case (perhaps she experienced it too) and has also stopped coming to class. Have you ladies experienced this before? How do you deal with it legally?


The author indicates the woman gave no reason for not coming back so yet we are to believed it was because of the "so called sexual harassment of an unwarranted message." A message that must of been to the injured area of her body and not her genitalia, or breasts. She did return back to the for a second time class.

I don't see any indication in the story the woman was inappropriately touched. What is said is she was injured twice and received a message twice by the person who injured her. It was not mentioned ( note my third person phrasing) the woman sought out medical help for her injuries. We are lead to believe the injuries where sever and the message was sexual without any support. Then the author calls on all woman who have had [same] experience before, and inquires about legal action. The author states her self as the third person, who attends the dojo, yet indicates she or neither the female "Senpai" experienced the same treatment. There is no other indication of how th other males reacted or felt about the situation. The tone of the story is similar to a call for a lynch mob.
I am not saying sexual harassment or abuse doesn't happen. All I am saying is this is a matter of critical thinking. There are too many flags and flaws in this story to stomp the foot down and say by golly the story is true. I will stake the farm on it, Bubba get the rope! Even the header of the thread is spamish. Is this person a troll, a man hater, a poor writer, I am not sure. I am judging the story has too many well known devices that are to arouse an emotional reaction intended for the reader to affront and vilify men, and defame Aikido, and I can't buy it. For me to buy it now, I would have to have names, places and dates. Which also triggers another alarm of why was this post in this section.

Just as one person said emotionally he would not take me seriously and would flame me with other because I felt the story was bogus and treated it with skepticism as any any educated and intelligent mind should. Therefore, my point of posting in anonymity is for the same reason as the author, in order to enhance my opinion, as well as the woman in the story to avoid verbal violence, assumptions, scorn and harassment directed personally at me because I am of a more educated and cautious approach to the story, and I am willing to voice it.

jon
05-13-2005, 11:50 AM
Code error in original. Correction:

Another lady senpai . The author of the story uses negative and implicating word choice to describe who she feels is a bad guy, "[he]doesn't take kindly" She goes on and says "to students, but takes interest in the woman instantly." The use of "the woman" is again an odd word choice and may be an indicator of a fictional character or the author herself.

I would say the phased discussed alerts to loaded for bear. It is an affront to males who are violent, brutish, and insensitive cads who make it a point of taking advantage of the female sex, sexually. Remember the first part of the story where the author starts of with "this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art." Place that with the quote above and we can see the author's device of contempt for Aikido and men.

Next is the support for the above contempt. The act of injury is then described followed by an unwarranted message. But what follows later is indicates an odd sequences of events that should have the critical reader looking more closely at the validity of the story, as it is told.


The first time she trained with him, he hurted her shoulder with a nikkyo pin and proceeded to give her a massage on her shoulder and back without obtaining her consent.

...she came to his attention for correction and again this time he injured her with a solid pin to the ground. Again, the usual apologies and the unwarranted massage. .

giriasis
05-13-2005, 12:13 PM
:::hears noise coming from a room:::

:::views site...M. Sigman with chip on shoulder:::

:::walks away shaking head:::


To the original poster. I actually believe you. Just do what you think is best for all the parties invovled.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2005, 12:37 PM
Hi Anne Marie,

I don't think the other anon is Mike...he is not around just now...and unless the Mauri have web connections...I really don't think he's stalking us. :)

RT

MattRice
05-13-2005, 12:37 PM
Um...yeah.

Anyway...I think it's all about context. There's a guy at our dojo who massages my shoulder after every pin. But he does it to everyone, all the time. It's benevolent and feels good.

The situation here was accurately described as creepy. Now, we donít really know what happened, but if dude really hurt the girl so he could rub on her: man thatís fíd up.

However, Iím not sure itís right to jump all over our anonymous poster because he didnít do anything. Thatís a judgment call only he is in a position to make. If it were me, Iíd talk to sensei. If that didnít get anywhere, somethingís wrong at the top. If I SAW it happening: I think something more immediate would have to be done. When I was in karate, a couple of situations came up similar to this. Sensei would notice what was going on and the offender would be sparring with sensei next thing you knew. MAN that was some funny stuff.

As for our second anonymous poster: WhatÖ?

Matt

happysod
05-13-2005, 12:44 PM
Anne, have to say not a fan of guessing names in an anon thread. The anon thread is there to allow names to be disregarded even if you have a good guess on who it is.

I also don't like the previous implication that staying anon on such a thread is somehow underhanded.

As regards the critical thinking path on dissecting the original post, I'll have to be put into the gullible camp for several reasons. I take most posts, especially anon ones, at face value firstly because they normally come under the heading of internet tales for me where there is bound to be bias on the posters part. Without further input (and hopefully information) from other posters or, preferably further input from the original poster I'm happy to wait before crying foul. More prosaically, I'm never sure of a persons native language, so hesitate to read too much into sentence structure.

However, where I am beginning to feel uncomfortable with the thread starter is the repeated appeal for outside help rather than just opinion, which is where the "call for a lynch" mob comment does have merit. There have been several good posts mentioning the need to bring this to the associations attention if there is a problem (even if it is only a perceived one) and even an offer of direct help, so I fail to see what more an internet forum can be expected to actually provide.

Anon#4
05-13-2005, 01:27 PM
snip...
As for our second anonymous poster: What…? Matt

The anonymous players so far:

Anon#1 93.190.78 The thread starter aka "Embarrassed"
Anon#2 30.220.146
Anon#3 73.43.72 or 74.189.19

Enter "Anon#4", comments:

Anon#3 is trying to distort the version of the story given by the thread starter. His version is the injured woman joins the assistant instructor and the rest of the dojo mates at a bar for after class drinks. I didn't read this in the starter's thread. How many of you guys drink at a bar after class? After class drinks can mean at a cafe or at a juice bar. The starter did mentioned that he/she was posting from a country where Islam is a majority's religion - it can't be any place in the States or European. Anon#3 in his lengthy post has many added things read into the original one. What, he is more educated and intelligent as he said he was?

The starter's thread seems genuine enough so much so that John Kuo seems to know the identity of the perpetrator. This means there are similar incidents such as the one depicted here that gave John a clue of the person's identity.

Anon#3 73.43.72 or 74.189.19 could be the character or a similar character of the instructor described by Embarrassed. If John Kuo can relate this to a person he thinks he know, I guess many of us can also relate this to similar incidents, experience and the people who share this trait of student abuse or sexual abuse.

Anon#1 the thread started has indicated his/her reasons for anonymity. Anon#3 appears more dubious to me. As for me, my anonymity is I am posting in the Anonymous Section.

Best Anon#4

anonymous
05-13-2005, 01:49 PM
I would like to clear something up for the idiotic male who thinks everyone is out to get him and his gender.
Not all females are strong enough to fight back, even verbally. Coming from an abusive or domineering background it is so easy to assume that it is just your imagination and that it doesn't mean what you think it does. Often anyone in any kind of official or senior role is someone to be feared and never challenged. I can easily see why the girl in question kept coming back. I know some will be offended by this but it can be a lot like a kicked dog. She will keep coming back with her tail between her legs hoping for acceptance.
Speaking from experience, I know how easy it is to fall into that trap, especially if it is something you were raised to. It doesn't matter how old or how big and strong you are.
I have been doing aikido for some time now and I can safely say that I have never felt threatened or intimidated by any of the guys I train with. They have never hurt me and I have never had need to fear them but if this had happened to me early in my training I may have responded in the same way she did.

Not all females are weak and in need of protecting but you must remember that some are. Perhaps she had finally plucked up the courage to learn to protect herself and this opportunity has been taken by someone who really should have known better.

MikeLogan
05-13-2005, 02:17 PM
Thank you ANON #4, you've restored your good name ;)

ANON 2 & 3, My post stands, and the one valid yet filamentous notion you put forth that I'll agree with, and only because it was distilled by Ian Hurst, is namely the potential for mob mentality in response.

Just as one person said emotionally he would not take me seriously and would flame me with other because I felt the story was bogus and treated it with skepticism as any any educated and intelligent mind should.
I invited you to pm me, and to flame me there if you were so inclined. And not because of your perceptions, or your feelings, but because you posted anon without adequate reasoning, here comes your reasoning
Therefore, my point of posting in anonymity is for the same reason as the author, in order to enhance my opinion, as well as the woman in the story to avoid verbal violence, assumptions, scorn and harassment directed personally at me because I am of a more educated and cautious approach to the story,

The original poster did so anonymously because it is a serious topic, with serious economic and legal ramifications, and they were providing at least some protection to the party they feel aggrieved by. So, if this was an attempt at character assassination why would the original poster feel the need to protect the dojo? I doubt it was to avoid what you certainly are trying to do. While I can't put your name in front of these remarks, I do know you're reading them.

and I am willing to voice it.
Behind the aegis of anonymity. You had none of the reasons of the first poster, and you had no reason to anticipate 'verbal violence', and the most violent i will get is noting what grand run on sentences you seem rather fond of up in that ivory tower of open-mindedness and edjumacation of your's. Or you anticipated this 'verbal violence' because some part of you thinks you might be going just a bit too far. It's that part of you that I'm trying to talk to, by the way.

It seems like this conversation is approaching the limit of redundant, but if you want me to explain myself further #2&#3, just pick each point, and I will do my best.

LoGaN (and I capitalized the L just for you mate) .

giriasis
05-13-2005, 02:56 PM
Hi Anne Marie,

I don't think the other anon is Mike...he is not around just now...and unless the Mauri have web connections...I really don't think he's stalking us. :)

RT

So there is someone else out there that is actually like that? :::shivers:::

I will correct my statement: :::looks into room and sees someone with a chip on shoulder:::

Mashu
05-13-2005, 03:26 PM
It was Anon#3 in the changing room with the massage.


Anyway, if high ranking people in a dojo are displaying defective behavior then don't bother with the place or the head instructor's organization. Let nature take it's course and in time their bodies will float down the river.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2005, 03:35 PM
:)

Oh, and Mike would just post under his own name, he wouldn't bother being anonymous...

RT

jon
05-13-2005, 07:58 PM
For those who are mature enough to discuss a topic. This is not for those who only can throw meaningless self gratifying insults in lieu of any kind of refute at someone who simply questions what is read. A person who doesn't jump on the bandwagon.

For the sake of a loosely made argument, say the story is true but the third party description given is inaccurate. For those who have achieved a higher level of education or those who understand communication, understand how communication can be grossly distorted when it is passed on. It would be fatal if this wasn't to be considered when determining the stories validity or accuracy as told by a third party.

The word "unwarranted message" is a conundrum as placed and used in the story of events. If I was to be injured assuming I had been sweet talked and mislead into making myself vulnerable by having say my injured shoulder messaged, and then it say the person giving the message started to talk to me in a manner I was uncomfortable with, or switch the message from being therapeutic to sensual, I would stop the message. Would this be an unwarranted message? or is the author implying "the guy" forced his hands upon her when the woman gave the directive of "NO". Based on the description and events in the story what makes the message "unwarranted"? Was this message done in public, or private? Who are the witness if it was public. Didn't anyone interfere with this "unwarranted" message? I would expect the other females to have intervene and come to the aid of the new female student getting the message, remember this supposedly has happened before to other woman.

Personally, I don't let anyone other then a licensed professional to deal with my health issues. This includes Hair cuts to messages to surgery. If some one puts a hand on my shoulder and rubbed my injured area, they would have never got past the first rub much less proceeded to rub my back. If the woman was uncomfortable why didn't she just walk away and go home. Again, I am confused on the word choice of unwarranted message. How do you get a message without consent? Was the woman passed out?

I am not sure if this event actually happen the way the author has described it. The woman who supposedly experienced the situation isn't the author, and has not posted her feelings about the incident. Nor has other members of that dojo who where there have posted. Therefore,
I still stand by my assertion that the way this story is bogus. I have opined this story is possibly an embellished of another event that has been miscommunicated to get an emotional response and empathy from the reader, it is bait. The biggest flag for my assertion is found in the last few lines of the story which calls for legal action by someone who it didn't' happen to.

As the old stand by saying going, believe 1/2 of what you see, 1/2 of what your hear, and 1/2 of what your read. The intellectual mind questions everything. It's proof that it seeks, not myths or rumors.

To change my opinion around I would again need names, places, and facts. As it stand, as the story is presented, I can't buy this story. Skepticism is a useful tool when your told "the sky is falling...the sky is falling." Or when the Circus is in town.

David Yap
05-13-2005, 09:01 PM
As the old stand by saying going, believe 1/2 of what you see, 1/2 of what your hear, and 1/2 of what your read. The intellectual mind questions everything. It's proof that it seeks, not myths or rumors.

To change my opinion around I would again need names, places, and facts. As it stand, as the story is presented, I can't buy this story. Skepticism is a useful tool when your told "the sky is falling...the sky is falling." Or when the Circus is in town.

For what it is worthed, the direction is you are flaming this thread for a personal motivation. If you have posted under your own name, perhaps you may obtain the facts you needed. Alas you can't do that now (or could you??? :rolleyes: ); you painted yourself into a corner to begin with.

For an intellectual who can't tell the difference between a " message" and a "massage" - how credible is your education and intelligence?

I am done.

David Y

giriasis
05-14-2005, 07:17 AM
WARNING: I haven't posted a book like this in a long time. I just had to post though. I apoligize in advanced for it being so long. Please bear with me.

Also, if you didn't notice most people here were giving advice to Embarrased as to how to appropriately handle the situations. Further comments were stated in general in regards to the situation at hand. For example, what would be accepted in their own dojo and how someone may handle the situation.

Also, you keep asking why she just didn't walk away and go home. I think that it the point, she did leave the dojo because of it. As you also pointed out we don't really know all the facts. Embarrased intially did not mention that she was Muslim and this took place in a predominantly Muslim county, probably in an attempt to conceal the identity of the school. But to me, in determining how offensive this may have been (notice the word "may") that would have been an important point as many Muslims would find such touching offensive.

Also, the nature of bulletin boards is that most information is third party. How many of us really has spoken to O'Sensei? But how many times do people talk about what O'Sensei said? We are not in a courtroom here on these boards, so the concept of "hearsay" does not come into play.

Also, if your concerned about negative harm being thrust upon the person in question, well, this is the Anonymous forum. There's a reason for it -- so a person can ask about difficult, delicate and complicate issues on the internet with out worry about identifying the dojo to which they belong.

I believe the term I've been using is "unwelcomed" not "unwarranted" . Usally, to determine who makes that decision is the person on the receiving end or what a reason person in the situation would have decided or what a reasonable Muslim woman would have felt as unwelcome. Those are three different standards. The first is completly subject what is unwelcomed is what that particular woman in that particular situation would have felt has "unwarranted" or "unwelcomed". The second is an objective standard in which a person, a reasonable person, would have felt as "unwarranted' or "unwelcomed" and the third is a mixed standard what a reasonable muslim woman have felt as "unwarranted" or "unwelcome" given the circumstances.

Now, those are typical standards used in U.S. law in assault and battery situations.

A battery is an offensive tounching that offended the person being touched, that offensive touching actually occured, it proximately caused the person being touched harm and the person who did the act had the intent either had the implied or actual intent to do such an act. An assault is an apprehension that such unwelcomed touching might occured.

In this case, lets just say a "battery" is what is at issue. The first point would be to address whether an offensive touching occured. What is offensive can be a simple as someone not wanting to be touched. If we take the mixed standard, the one applied in Florida, USA, then the fact finder (court or jury) would asked would a reasonable Muslim woman in this situation find this touching offensive. If it is true as the previous poster mentioned that a Muslim woman would not welcome a massage from someone other than her husband, then the factfinder could determine that the "touching" was offensive. BUT if an objective standard was used not taking into consideration outside factors, then as you saw here on this board that reasonable people would disagree as to whether or not the massage itself was offensive. ALSO, if it was a purely subjective standard, then no matter the mental the conditon of the woman invovled, if she said it was offensive then it would be offensive.

The next question is was she actually touched? In two situations, while she was at class after being injured by the assistant instructor she was taken to the side of the mat and her injuries massaged. The fact finder would need to hear testimony from the woman herself as to the events that occured to support the allegation that the offensive touching occured twice. If what the original poster said is true, then the woman would testify to such an account and the factfinder could determine that the woman in question was actually touched?

The third question to ask is whether the touching was the proximate cause to the harm that may have resulted from such offensive touching. Usually, under U.S. law the touching has to cause some kind of damage. Such as when you hit someone you leave a bruise. There can be emotional harm, but, usually, such harm must result in some kind of injury -- headaches, fear of going outside, etc. Here there was an injury but it was an injury that resulted from her practice of aikido not from the massage, unless somehow her injury was exacerbated by the massage since soft tissue injuries should be iced and not massaged. Or one could argue that she lost money because she was afraid to go back to the dojo because of this man (but that depend on her testimony) (The case starts to fall about here.)

Finally, what was the intent of the person who perfomed the touching? He has to have the intent to cause and offensive touching. There are two kinds of intent actual and implied. Actual means that he can he wanted to massage her to offend her. And implied means that he knew or should have known that his touching would offend her. Actual intent can be very difficult to prove as it usually requires the person who performed the touching to state that was their actual intent. However, more often it takes an implied intent. In this case, both parties were Muslim, or both at least lived in a premdominantly Muslim country so they would have the knowledge that a Muslim woman would be offended if she were massage by someone other than her husband. If such facts could be proven to a fact finder (judge or jury), then they could determine that he knew or should have known that such touching would be offensive.

The person who performed the touching best affirmative defense would be that she consent to such a touching and that he obtained her consent. Did she vocalize any sort or objective, did he ask for her to sit to the side of the mat so he could give her a massage. Or should he have known under the circumstances that consent would not have been given.

His other defense would be realted to causation. Did the touching cause any harm? Other than being upset was there any harm that resulted? It could be that she paid money to the dojo and she lost that money because she didn't feel welcome to return. But that all depends on case law.

So in conclusion: A factfinder, a judge or jury, could determine that there was: 1) an offensive touching (mixed standard); 2) the offensive touching occured; 3) that there was an Implied intent to perform an offensive touching. However, it will be more difficult for a fact find to find whether harm occured as a result of the offensive touching, and the person performing the touching whould have an affirmative defense of consent.

You see, this is the kind of though process that goes through my mind when someone asks for advice, espcially on the legal side of things. But the problem is that my determination is based on my understanding of the law in the U.S. Laws are different in Muslim countrys, and I'd be awefully arrogant to assume that my laws applies to theirs. That is why I said to Embarrased that he seek counsel in his own country.

[CAVEAT: None of the above is intend to convey legal advice but to merely illustrate a point. Please do not rely on this in any situation. If you find yourself in a legal situation seek out an attorney under laws of where you live. The results could be radically different so please do not rely on this. This illustration is based on my understanding of the laws of Florida, U.S. and I have performed no legal research on case law on this matter. So, do not rely on this.]

jon
05-14-2005, 09:40 AM
Also, if you didn't notice most people here were giving advice to Embarrassed as to how to appropriately handle the situations. Further comments were stated in general in regards to the situation at hand. For example, what would be accepted in their own dojo and how someone may handle the situation.

Also, you keep asking why she just didn't walk away and go home. I think that it the point, she did leave the dojo because of it.


Ms. Giri,

No need to appologize for explaining your point of view. I appreciate the details and effort in your post, the length doesn't bother me in the cyber world of Postit Notes.

How is this for comparison of the thread which I don't bite, vs. an alternative that would be less suspicious. The original is denoted as 1. The alternative is denoted as 2. :

Titles:

1. Spreading this Wonderful Budo.

2. Need advice for a Friend who had been harassed.

Introduction:

1. A month & a half ago, I introduce a girlfriend to aikido. Prior to that, of course, I "sold" to her this wonderful art of peace, harmony, love and most importantly the gentlman's martial art.

2. A month and a half ago, I introduced a girlfriend to Aikido, and it wasn't a pleasant experience for her. I felt she was treated poorly, and possibly sexually harassed.

Also not the author stated she introduced a girlfriend to Aikido, who after the incident could not reach her by phone, but yet another woman in the class could. Very odd, hails a red flag.

You would have to be blindfolded not to see what the author is saying, and doing. It is an affront, insult, an attack directly on Aikido. And I understand people who got taken into this my feel embarrassed and are turning it around to make the best of a bad situation.

But frankly, there are millions of people around the world who take Aikido, mostly men. There are thousands of people who post and here. Aikido has been popular for decades, and yet there are a handful of publicly known incidents of sexual harassment in the Aikido community. This points to no reason for alarm concerning sexual harassment in Aikido dojos. More clearly, Aikido isn't full of males sexually abusing females. If fact is it pretty rare. Aikido doesn't need that reputation of an art that is a place that accepts sexual abuse, this is evident by many of the posts here, and on other boards. Nor is it accurate or ethical to perpetuate or Or is it ethical to blow this out of proportion. Regardless of that some feel an alarm must be blown to warn the world of this evil, hypocritical, immoral, and unethical art of Aikido. Aikido it doesn't deserve it, and the good people who practice it don't deserve it. Do you disagree?


What concerns me as the story not being factual or has been twisted for an agenda is, yes, why didn't she leave the dojo initially and not come back after the uncomfortable massage and the injury? Why did she return and then proceeding to commit to another month of classes said to be $120.00- which is very high for a month's class. That is not rational or normal behavior of a person who felt sexually harassed and purposely injured. Are you saying that this isn't normal or rational behavior. Humans have a mechanism that tells us to get the hell out when the building is on fire, and not stand around and light matches. You don't stick or commit for another month in a dojo where you feel uncomfortable because a person is doubly abusing you.

I like your caveat at the end of your post, but I am not clear on that in conjunction with what you said is the point of the thread, "notice most people here were giving advice to Embarrassed." Because the author is asking for what legal action can be taken at the end of her post. Not advice on how to find a better dojo and/or how to avoid any such future situations if she should come across them. I am wondering why the author is asking for herself, penned in the first person, and not her so-called friend which she can't get a hold of by phone.

I hope you can see my view point is that of skepticism based on the inconsistance etc. of the story and the possible agenda of the author ( who by the way didn't say she was the one who left the class, but rather her girlfriend). It is not to insult all those who carry their emotions on their sleeve, or those to incited those who flame those who don't jump on th bandwagon without looking. Rather to take a serious matter that affects Aikido and all those who practice it, and look at its validity first prior to judgement. I think that is rational and fair behavior, isn't it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ms. Giri, an interesting sig line; is there still a war on men?

RebeccaM
05-14-2005, 10:46 AM
1) I am not sure what attcking the credibility of the thread starter is going to accomplish. If the original poster wanted to warn people off aikido, they wouldn't be coming to aikiweb to do it.

2) Some of his or her sentance constructions are giving me the impression that Embarassed speaks English as a second language. There's nothing wrong with them, they're just a bit different from how a native speaker would say things. I could be way off base though. That would certainly explain the discrepancy some see in the title.

3) Do we even know what gender Embarassed is (and why it even matters)?

4) This thread was never about attacking men. A couple anonymous posters seem to want to think otherwise, but I think that says a lot more about their attitudes than the actual situation. No one here is trying to paint all men in aikido or martial arts with the same brush. No one is saying these incidents are common. I've trained in three aikido dojos and one karate club. I've never felt harassed or unwelcome in a martial arts club. In the minority yes, but I don't find that particularily threatening. However, that rarity is what makes incidents like this one so shocking. I read these thread and feel kinda betrayed. Shame on the sad sack who feels like he has to hurt women to approach them, and shame on the sensei for being so out-of-touch with his own dojo, and also shame on whoever set the prices for this dojo. $120/month is way too much. How do people eat when they're paying $120/month in dues? I know I couldn't!

5) As for why the woman didn't leave the first time, well, here's a lot of reasons I can think of right off hand. Maybe she really liked aikido and wanted to try it again. Maybe she thought this was an isolated event. Maybe she thought that it was acceptable behavior in the dojo. Maybe she wanted to impress Embarassed. Who knows. As for why she more or less cut off contact with Embarassed, maybe she's afraid Embarassed will try to make her go back or maybe she, for reasons of her own, is projecting her own anger at the instructor onto Embarassed. It's not the most rational thing in the world to do, but it happens.

MikeLogan
05-14-2005, 11:06 AM
Ok, for your concern on consistency, let's say the original poster is a guy. If his girlfriend were not speaking to him about something she felt horribly embarrased by, almost mortally so, and perhaps she now felt betrayed by his lact of action on her behalf, would you not find it reasonable that she might confide in a woman?

Notice the original poster never said anything like: "I am leaving this evil-evil-evil art of Aikido, which is filled with nothing but sex-offenders!"
And who says people have to act rational? You seem to be operating just swimmingly. Who says she wasn't trying to give the first occasion the benefit of the doubt, that she wasn't giving it a second try?

This is but one thread in a sea of white noise, and I see in no way how it could affect me, or my practice of aikido. I see no agenda, and stated my reasoning as to why.

I actually view your behaviour as a threat, which is precisely why I'm carrying on with this. I mean this literally. And to mix a compliment at the start of your last thread, with that snide bit at the end referencing a war on men. I'm speechless.

It is an affront, insult, an attack directly on Aikido.
That's a mighty big leap, pal.
Regardless of that some feel an alarm must be blown to warn the world of this evil, hypocritical, immoral, and unethical art of Aikido.
Hate to say it, but I totally missed this too. Perhaps it is a subliminal m'a'ssage, and so I heartily thank you for saving me from its no doubt heinous and anti-male, anit-aikido sentiment.

Bro's before Ho's, is that it?

Have you ever personally known a woman who has experienced any sort of sexual assault or harassement at all? Imagine for a moment a person's soul, the part we think is just for us; the part we know is what makes us human. The part of you that wants to love and be loved.

Now imagine this part of you being physically stabbed, clubbed, smashed into concrete and broken glass, and left bleeding in dung. This is only an approximation of the effect of sexual assault on the psyche of some, but perhaps many women. It is as if the perpetrator has the ability to prove to them that they are not human

This is not the case for all women, some luck out with the amount of psychological resilience they accumulate. But, being a man myself I have to call this an approximation. I can't fully imagine it. Also, I feel comfortable knowing that it is so very likely that I will never face sexual assault directed at my person. The last figure I heard in the united states, is that 1 in 4 women from whatever young age and upwards have experienced some form of sexual abuse, or will have in their lifetimes. This is inside the United States, chuck, and not some war-torn third world nation.

BLAH BLAH BLAH, right? This situation right here, me writing so fervently against you, is actually a fine model for sexual assault. I don't know you for one thing, but that I see you refusing to post under at least some electronic identity renders your viewpoints less valid, and so my respect for you was diminished from the start.

Ok, here comes the parallel Imagine a rapist, dark alley, woman he doesn't know enters stage right.

There names are both ANONYMOUS.

If I was arguing with someone who had the guts to put there name in front of their viewpoints, I could respect that, and them. I might not agree, but, hey, you'll have that. And don't tell me your reasons are any more valid than the original poster's. This has been argued heretofore, and you've missed, or ignored it.

Done for now.

logaN

Zato Ichi
05-14-2005, 06:57 PM
Walks in, stage left.

Puts up "Do not feed the troll" sign.

Walks out, stage right.

Embarrassed
05-15-2005, 10:24 PM
Hi all,

Let's get a few facts right:

1. I am an aikido junkie. I have no intention of bashing aikido; I apologize if someone take it that way.

2. I might have lost a friend - a platonic girl. I am also embarrassed to face her after convincing her to pick up the art.

3. I have no idea that the assistant instructor will take one of the class. Both times she was injured, it was in his class.

4. I could not have protected her as we were partnering together and the incidents happened. Even I was, what sort of protection could I offer, after all the perpetrator was leading the class. If I have told him to stop chances were he would take it out on me or someone else in the class.

5. He did not take her to the side of mats to be massaged, he massaged her while she was still lying down after the pin. I don't think she was in the position to brush him away. Others in the class saw the incidents including her partner during the practice.

6. One of the dojo owners is always present when the perpetrator takes class. That is why I was looking for a legal redress - not for a law suit but to inform the owners about the legal liabilities they are exposed to as long they have this guy teaching the class.

Finally, I am a guy and English is not my mother's tongue. That's all I can divulge without people guessing which dojo I belong to.

Best

Embarrassed
05-15-2005, 10:29 PM
Sorry for the mistakes:

2. I might have lost a friend - a platonic girlFRIEND. I am also embarrassed to face her after convincing her to pick up the art.

4. I could not have protected her as we were NOT partnering together WHEN the incidents happened. Even I was, what sort of protection could I offer, after all, the perpetrator was leading the class. If I have told him to stop chances were he would take it out on me or someone else in the class.

Done

jon
05-16-2005, 10:59 AM
Sorry, I still don't buy it. I find the recent explanation very misleading, and thus questionable. Therefore, I still have the the same problems with accuracy, validity, and the motive behind the story.

The recent explanation brings up more questions of accuracy and validity. Patterns of thought and writing style is something to take note of, which is very revealing. There are many more significant points then I discuss to go over now. I will touch on the less significant issues I have for the sake of brevity. I am assuming the more significant issues to be questioned are pretty obvious. But, I will be glad to discuss the other significant points if requested.

Why is "Embarrassed" trying so hard to conceal names, and places, and his gender and identity? Why does hes writing style lend to concealing more then just the situation of the people involved? There are constructed layers of anonymity, which are not to simply protect the Innocent.

He was misleading in his gender and posting style. The primary language issue was never brought up until it was suggested. Rebecca's post seem to be the template for the recent explanation from "Embarrassed." Yet, none of the previous concerns to his story have been address.

It is interesting the poster will not discuss points made earlier that brought up in question. Thus, I question the motives behind these statements made by him that suspiciously puts a quick stop on the discussion. A technique very common among troll, or people who are uncomfortable and resist further discussion and proper explanations because the story they tell is fabricated in detail or observation, because they have something to hide. The technique of putting a quick on a discussion like "Embarrassed" has isn't a property of those with English is a second language. Finally, I am a guy and English is not my mother's tongue. That's all I can divulge without people guessing which dojo I belong to.

Now to further my point, let's look, for example, at how Mike Logan ends his last rant. Done for now. Now compare that to how "Embarrassed" end his last post Done, both a point of finality.

Also, Ok, for your concern on consistency, let's say the original poster is a guy. If his girlfriend were not speaking to him about something she felt horribly embarrased by, almost mortally so, and perhaps she now felt betrayed by his lact of action on her behalf, would you not find it reasonable that she might confide in a woman? - Please take note of the errors make here by Mike Logan. He misspelled "embarrased" for embarrassed and "lact" for lack. These errors could be attributed to being made by someone who speaks English as a second language.

Now compare that to what "Embarrassed" said recently, I might have lost a friend - a platonic girlFRIEND. I am also embarrassed to face her after convincing her to pick up the art.

I see a pattern among other this of foreshadowing. First with Rebbecca ( suggestion of not being a native speaker) and then with Logan who seems to provide the supportive details beforehand.

I don't know if "Embarrassed" is a native speaker of English or not. There was nothing all in the post that identified him as a person who doesn't have a good grasp and command of English, thus was aware of how his story and the title would have sounded. It seems to me again there is more to question about the validity of the author and his motives.
Does English as a second language change the question of validity, and accuracy credible? We all know what he said, and how he said it, all in good structured English, so much so no one questioned that. Many of assumed he was a native English speaker, or had no idea he wasn't. Because of his writing style, many of where lead to believe and assumed he was a she. Which I don't see the reason of the gender anonymity?

I am not sure if the actual events took place. Certainly, I question the account of events, and the credibility of the author. Therefore, I still stand behind that the story is bogus, and was to incite an emotional reaction that designed to affront Aikido. I say this because nothing solid has been told or shown otherwise.

MikeLogan
05-16-2005, 11:47 AM
... for the sake of brevity. Since others have said it better, I will step aside for the one and only:
Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief. Go ahead and look at how I ended my "rant", it might have been more use to have examined the rant itself. Just a little bit.
He misspelled "embarrased" for embarrassed and "lact" for lack. These errors could be attributed to being made by someone who speaks English as a second language.
"Could", sure, but more like they were made by someone who should have acquainted themselves with the spell checker. Again, thanks for the informative m'e'ssage, my bact feels grate.

I would love to go on, but I'm taking the advice of Zato Ichi. This is your last bite. Congratulations, you've won! Print this out and hang it on your wall! Show your friends, and family! Dear Benson, you are so mercifully free of the ravages of intelligence

akiy
05-16-2005, 12:06 PM
Hi folks,

Just wanted to step in here and put in my two cents. Personally, I don't think there's any reason to question neither the veracity nor the intent of the original poster's claims; I sure didn't see it as any affront to aikido. For me, at least, his post brings up some issues in aikido that should be discussed. I'm sorry to say that his report does not surprise me too much, unfortunately...

As far as the vagueness and anonymity of the poster, I'll point out that this is the Anonymous forum. As long as people raise a pertinent issue, they very well should be allowed to do so anonymously. I do not think there is any need to attribute malicious intent nor ulteriour motive to what they have written.

Lastly, please note that one of the forum rules specific to the Anonymous forum is, " Hiding behind anonymity for inappropriate postings is strictly prohibited." Attacking the character of people involved in this thread, whether directly or indirectly, is not appropriate.

So, please -- let's discuss the issues rather than redirecting this thread to personal attacks.

Thank you,

-- Jun

jon
05-16-2005, 01:40 PM
Let me apologize now if it sounds as if I have attacked anyone's character. I want to separate myself from those who make personal attacks and insults instead of refuting an argument which I have experienced.

I don't think "Embarrassed's" story is accurate and shouldn't be looked at with some skepticism as told. I do feel the way the story has some familiar patterns used by others like blowing things out of proportion, as well as trollish and spam like sentences ( All of which I previously pointed out) to get people's attention. I don't know if this is done intentional or not. But never the less it makes be suspect to the validity of the version of the story and the motivations behind it. This is what I am discussing. I don't want to call anyone a troll, or insulting them unless there are hard facts to back it up. I believe in fair play. I am dealing with the story and the explanation behind it, which I am not satisfied enough to give it my stamp of credibility.

The subject of the story is a serious matter, because if it didn't happened as explained exactly way a third party told it then a Dojo, a Sensei, and an assistant Sensei obvious will suffer unjustly. According to some posters they say the know this dojo already. What if they are mislead. Who is that fair to. Don't own to our Aikido community to be skeptical, to take a hard look at these accusations of criminal acts?

It is easy for anyone to feel for a victim and not feel an emotion against a perceived criminal act. But, my I remind everyone who sees my actions as antagonistic that you are innocent until proven guilty. That requires finding the testing all the facts to find the truth. A person shouldn't be proven guilty based on a third person account that is easily questionable. Or in other cases, guilt through hype and public opinion/assumption. Something that is more and more influencing our judicial system and how we, as a public, perceive innocence and guilt. A great example of this is the Peterson case. And the Micheal Jackson case, both cases are being tried by public opinion, which the law reflects, and not by reason or the other instruments in our Judaical system. Public opinion gets more weight in who is guilty or innocent.

What I am saying is we are replacing at break-neck speed formative tools of reason and logic that lead us to truth for public opinion to determine who is or isn't guilty. As Walter Cronkite recently said, and I am paraphrasing, We as a public no longer what the truth reviled rather we want someone to reinforce our side of the issue.

This speak volumes in pointing to how the public looks at, and deals with issues of importance. I am be a bit old fashion, but I want the truth to be reviled before I exclaim that the "sky is falling." per serious action of house cleaning Aikido of bad apples.

Thank for your consideration.
Jon

Ron Tisdale
05-16-2005, 02:00 PM
but I want the truth to be reviled before I exclaim that the "sky is falling

Ok, I revile the truth! :)

from www.dictionary.com: To assail with abusive language; vituperate.

jon
05-16-2005, 02:35 PM
Here is my story

I had a friend some years back when in my 20's who would wait for new woman to enter the dojo, and upon injury, would massage the injury out some what. Usually, as we all know new students will often times injury their shoulders mildly or develop muscle soreness learning ukemi. Especially, if they have never before done any type of athletics or out of shape. My then friend felt that, that was an ideal way to approach or solicit woman for a date. How ever you want to look at it, it was his way of picking up woman in a non-aggressive way. Our dojo specialized in helping and catering atmosphere ( no macho BS ) for woman, thus a very attractive attribute to woman looking for a martial art.

This friend was very interested in new students for the reason he could possibly meet a woman. He would massage a woman and while doing that he would talk to them during the massage to get better acquainted with them, and for the woman to get to know him. If it didn't work out, he said it ended there. There was never any incident or disruption I can remember that resulted on the mat or in class. He did his massage usually right after first aid was given on the injury on the mat during class, so we all heard it what he said and how he said it. In my view, its was a kind of a neutral, safe pre-date thing. At twenty something, he was a bit shy of woman and feared rejected. You find better quality woman in a dojo then a bar, or meat market gym. It was this method that worked out for him. He was successful at it.

The downside is this caused a lot of jealously among the single woman and men in the dojo. For those woman he didn't pay attention too in the dojo they that dislike him; hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. For a few of the young single men it was competition, and they didn't like it, as he was winning all the time.

Of course his way of picking up woman was very smooth, and not abrasive, again there was not negative fallout when they didn't find him their type. It didn't disrupt the dojo or make it look like a meat market dojo. The downside of it was the jealousy from other woman and men, who consistently bad mouth him, and tried to make the whole ordeal into something that it wasn't. This is what cased strife in the dojo.

After sometime he finally found a woman he could settle down with. She was a student of Aikido that he had massaged as a result of an injury. After getting to know her she had said that woman many like herself will find martial arts men to be attractive, and have allot in common. It is an alternative for woman who do like meat market bars or gyms to find love.

I have known many couples who have met at the dojo and fell in love. It really is a great way to find out about someone. To met in something that is a shared interests is a strong component to a relationship. I don't put my old friend down because he found a way non-threatening way to communicate to woman his personality. He never intentionally hurt anyone. In fact, he took a lot of abuse resulting in injuries from new students, both male and female. This is not to say he work with every new student that walk through the door, it is true he would take more interest into woman he found attractive.

As I recall this story, I can see how someone could or would misunderstand what he was doing as unethical. To continue Rebecca's hypothetical, a person could be jealous or mad at him and use this against him. They could say he is abusing his position and woman, taking full advantage of them while they are injured and weak. A time when they are most vulnerable. Saying such a thing can gain a lot of support, and turn the tables against my friend, this sort of thing does happen allot. Then as a result, wouldn't it wise to skeptical and to reserve judgment until the facts are in and weighed when you hear stuff like that?

Post thoughts:

Personally, I would like to know if the woman in "Embarrassed's" story warrented him to post her story. Has he posted her story without consent? If she didn't give her permission isn't that just or more unethical then the massage? It is about permission isn't it? I hope this isn't the case.


My friend moved soon after his marriage, and I have lost contact through the years. Thus my referal to him as my old friend.

Thank you.

Jon

jon
05-16-2005, 02:58 PM
Thanks for pointing this out, t's always nice when someone offers to proof read. I guess English is my second language. Ok, Celtic is my first. Not really. I am playing on the history of the English and its language. :)

but I want the truth, not to be reviled, before it's exclaimed that the "sky is falling".

ruthmc
05-17-2005, 08:12 AM
I had a friend some years back when in my 20's who would wait for new woman to enter the dojo, and upon injury, would massage the injury out some what. <snip> My then friend felt that, that was an ideal way to approach or solicit woman for a date. How ever you want to look at it, it was his way of picking up woman in a non-aggressive way. <snip> This friend was very interested in new students for the reason he could possibly meet a woman.
Your friend's ethics behind giving massage were questionable, in that case. Massage should be given with the intent to help and to heal, not with the intent to ask somebody for a date!

If your friend was a member of a professional bodywork organisation, he would have been thrown out of it for unethical behaviour. This has actually happened to some practitioners who behaved in the way that your friend did.

It is important when giving massage or any other kind of bodywork to respect the boundaries of the receiver, or you will taint the treatment. You also run the risk of bringing massage into disrepute, making it even more difficult for genuine practitioners to make a living from it than it already is.

It would be nice if people would occasionally consider the wider consequences of their actions.

Ruth (Shiatsu student)

jon
05-17-2005, 11:51 AM
This was back in the early 80's when I was a freshmen in college. The times where different then and here in the states. You would be surprised that when I was in the dorms co-ed, it was the in-thing to give massages to the opposite sex. Remember we where just off the end of the sexual revolution. Massages where I was at in California was very common way as a way to get to first base and experience sex, or to get a date with someone. No longer was making out ( nice word for sex ) in your Dad's car at make out ridge the in my folk's time.

You would be also surprised the middle aged woman complaining of soreness in class to my friend who would let him massage them. I swear there where times when it was a line after class. Also to note the times then, it was considered homosexual to be massaged by another guy. Times where so much different then.

Times have changed, and that was then. I am sure you can sue someone for giving you a bad massage now. We also changed what is and what isn't acceptable between men and woman; refined what sexual harrassment is and isn't, what is bad and good touch. We have come to know the term "date rape" amoung others. It is a different dating game and seen now. The playing field has changed and so have the rules, and they keep changing. Thank God I am married.

Personally, I wouldn't let anyone, but a professional licensed Registered Physical Therapist (RPT) massage me if I was injured on or off the mat. If injuried and the person doesn't know what he is doing it could lead to further injury.

Ron Tisdale
05-17-2005, 12:08 PM
There is a definate difference between the following:

a) a group of willing participants giving each other massages on a college campus

b) an individual in a dojo asking a dojo mate for a massage

c) an individual on staff who teaches in a dojo proffering unsolicited massages to get a date.

If you can't tell the difference...hopefully you'll figure it out before you ever decide to run a dojo.

RT

jon
05-17-2005, 03:06 PM
If you can't tell the difference...hopefully you'll figure it out before you ever decide to run a dojo.

RT

Do you always come off so poorly? Please... a member of this board had a concern. If you can't figure out that all I was saying is to that member, is my friend's actions and the actions happened over the last 20 years ago. Only to ease the member's concern then I don't know what to tell you.

In those days, back then we had different values, and outlooks. In the 80's demonstrated by the film "9 to 5" Woman strongly rooted in fighting and gaining ground for equality in all sorts of areas, as a result of the Woman's movement of the 60's and 70s. A movement that helped lots of woman redefine themselves. A movement that was about freedom from all sorts of female stereotypes including sexual stereotypes, that help them gain equality. Equality in the area of sexuality. That is they could be as free as men to do what they liked. Battling against the double standard. It was no longer so taboo for an woman during her sexual pique to exploit her sexuality, and rebuff the double standard by having an affair with a younger man, for example. I doubt if you are aware of the book popular in the 60's that was part of the sexual revolution for woman, "Coffee, Tea, or Me."

What was a shift in my opinion marked a significant change in the woman's movement direction was the famous Anita Hill case. Which gave us the household term of Sexual Harassment, as a result of politics as usual. This sparked a focus to change the work place behavior. A very conservative revolution compared to that of the 60's and 70's. This was the starting foundation for sexual harassment, what is appropriate behavior and what isn't between the sexes. Please don't anyone twist this around and try and make me look like I don't support sexual harassment laws in the work place, or I am for sexually harassing others in the work place. I don't want to read those type of disrespectful, sophomoric, and profoundly unfounded acusations.

My point of bringing up the story of my friend was to illustrate a possibility that there isn't just one way of looking at a situation from a 3rd party view in "Embarrasse's" story. It was to present a different hypothetical of the situation as started by Rebbecca. Finally, to demonstrate that not all situations are the same what may have happened as described by "Embarrassed" may not be the same case in every similar situation in every instance. We should not similar looking situations at face value. We should look into each case independently on its own ground first as we put our emotions to the aside. We first must use formative and honored tools of logic and reason, before, we make a judgment. What if the police didn't asks question and investigate a situation, and use emotional reaction based on what they seen or heard to make an arrest? How many times would they arrest the victim as the perpetrator? What if they emotionally judged every similar incident and situation by one incident. My goodness, I can't even think of that.

I don't know of too many people who get far in life, if didn't use reason and logic! Not too assume all situations that look alike are the same! That you have to look at each situation differently, and not generalize everything. Shessssh how hard is that to understand.....


We are taught that at home as kids, "don't judge a book by it's cover", "don't jump to conclusions" and "your innocent until proven guilty." " to step back and look at things from a different angle." "Don't assume." We are taught logic and reason and how to use it and apply in school as early as Kindergarten through college. We are expected to use it in society in our jobs. I ask you, how hard is that to comprehend?

A member had a concern, I was simply explaining my story was along time ago to ease her concerns and let her know it wasn't recent. I also let her know that I agree that a pro should do the massaging, but I am not the almighty dictator of the world. I have no control over what other people do, and if they aren't hurting anyone who am I too complain. My friend didn't hurt anyone. As a matter of fact, it worked out for him and his wife. A woman who joined the class to find a nice boy. It is their life, not mine, or anyone else's.

It is none of my business to involve or concern myself with other people's affairs such as by friends and the woman who where involved. He wasn't braking any laws. He wasn't a rapist or a murderer. He wasn't injuring people on purpose, in fact it was the other way around. I don't get into other peoples lives where I don't belong. I don't get into anyone else's business.

Someone will say that if I will allow someone to harm someone else. That is false. If I see a law being broken I will report it. If I see a rule broken I will enforce it in the dojo. If I see dojo abuse happening I will stop it. But I will not put my values upon others. Or interfere in other peoples lives regardless of my own opinion. Otherwise, it is none of my business.

Embarrassed
06-24-2005, 12:01 AM
Hi all,

I guess someone has pointed out this post to dojo owners after finding similarities of the situation & people. The assistant instructor has stopped leading the class and reverted to just taking the uke role for the dojo owner who is the sole instructor now. While the class trains, the ex-assistant instructor does shadow fighting with his bokken in a corner of the class. Most of us are happy and some of us are hoping that he will not show up at all. He does look very pathetic without his ego - probably we are used to his cruel grins and sometime clowning ways while bullying the students.

Alas, the damage has been done. The class attendance has 50% from its regular 18~20 people now. It is sad when crony ism takes place in a dojo.

Very thanks for posts, guys.

Embarrassed

Ron Tisdale
06-24-2005, 09:00 AM
I'm sorry that one person had such a negative affect on your practice. I think if the instructor is consistent in his correction of the offender, things will turn around and the attendence will pick up again. Consistancy is key. And respecting the boundries of others. In my mind, respect of another's boundries is not tied to one place or time...it should be the same in the 60's, today, in the states, or overseas.

Best,
Ron

jon
06-25-2005, 09:27 AM
Hi all,

I guess someone has pointed out this post to dojo owners after finding similarities of the situation & people. The assistant instructor has stopped leading the class and reverted to just taking the uke role for the dojo owner who is the sole instructor now. While the class trains, the ex-assistant instructor does shadow fighting with his bokken in a corner of the class. Most of us are happy and some of us are hoping that he will not show up at all. He does look very pathetic without his ego - probably we are used to his cruel grins and sometime clowning ways while bullying the students.

Alas, the damage has been done. The class attendance has 50% from its regular 18~20 people now. It is sad when crony ism takes place in a dojo.

Very thanks for posts, guys.

Embarrassed

All I can say is.....this person's comments are very, very disturbing and sad. It increases my skepticism of what actually took place or if it did at all, and the purpose for all of
Embarrassed posts. An attack behind anonymity on someone anonymous, happen in an anonymous place is an attack, is an attack. It could be look at with great skepticism.

I am not rushing up behind Embarrassed with all my support for what we are to believe is an experience of a poor unfortunate Aikidoka who if you look closely enough at all the posts you can argue has a bias and agenda. I read this and all other posts from this person with extreme skepticism and caution for the truth. Unless presented otherwise more revealing factual and unbiased information, I can't in good conscious,faith and fairness throw out cheers of support, or supportive admonishments for this person and their situation.

jon
06-25-2005, 09:53 AM
I also can't see Embarrassed's situation ( if it is true ) to be a plaguing hallmark situation that is wide spread and universal in Aikido or its ranks to warrant grave and serious action. I don't see the need for a banner waving call to Arms for a revolution of change in Aikido dojos based on based this one Embarrassed's described situation, and it's reasonable questionable validity. Or more mildly, a call of a wave of supportive admonishments to those we are to assume, in the dojo, to be culprits, rapscallions, or predatory egomaniacs who sexually harass timid and defenseless woman whose only action and recourse for justice is to take it to an Internet discussion board all in anonymity? :confused:

I hope this ends the thread, until we are presented with facts and a better and more reasonal perspective that the sky isn't falling! Or it isn't the War of the Worlds.

Embarrassed
06-25-2005, 12:23 PM
I also can't see Embarrassed's situation ( if it is true ) to be a plaguing hallmark situation that is wide spread and universal in Aikido or its ranks to warrant grave and serious action. I don't see the need for a banner waving call to Arms for a revolution of change in Aikido dojos based on based this one Embarrassed's described situation, and it's reasonable questionable validity. Or more mildly, a call of a wave of supportive admonishments to those we are to assume, in the dojo, to be culprits, rapscallions, or predatory egomaniacs who sexually harass timid and defenseless woman whose only action and recourse for justice is to take it to an Internet discussion board all in anonymity? :confused:

I hope this ends the thread, until we are presented with facts and a better and more reasonal perspective that the sky isn't falling! Or it isn't the War of the Worlds.

Hi Jon (if that's your true name),

Honestly, I don't give a damn about what you feel. My conscience is clear. I have not attacked anyone or organisation by name. Somewhat you took the situation at my dojo very personal as if you are amongst the guilty ones. In fact, you took the opportunity to spin off a couple of threads from here. Why don't we come out clean? I will tell the world who I am at the risk of being excommunicated by my teacher and organisation. By doing so, I would be causing him to lose face in the aikido community here and even in the World Headquarters. You should also come clean, tell us who you are and where do you teach.

Since the identity of "Deep Throat" has been known, perhaps the aikido community (at least in the States) can now something to speculate, "Who in the world is Jon?"

The bottomline is we the students are now happy with our training and the instructor/dojo owner has regained our trust.

Best training

Embarassed

jon
06-26-2005, 12:16 AM
The question is who is Embarrassed?

I take the "Deep Throat" comment as a compliment.

You don't have to "give a damn" of what I feel. I don't have to give a hoop 'n holler of what you feel. But, I am not going to agree or be skeptical or pressured to because I am told to. I don't jump off a cliff because everyone who is happens to be emotional charged? No Jim Jones or Heaven's Gate, No Helter Skelter, and no "because someone said so, or told me." Each diabolical leader of the groups fore mentioned had convinced people to jump on their bandwagon. Charles Mason evidently was good at that, convincing people to jump on a bandwagon. This just shows vividly the absence of critical thinking is over-shadowed by the power emotional thinking. This is one of man's greatest weakness.

Point is buyer beware. If we lose our sense of skepticism and critical thinking to allowing our emotional buttons being pushed, we endanger ourselves to the danger of our mentality. Rational critical thinking is the hand break to our emotional reaction. Thought before reaction. Clear thinking. Seeing the whole picture. Understanding the scope of the event(s) when our emotional buttons are pushed, before the consequences. Wisdom. The ability to discern, and evaluate. I would hate to have a doctor diagnose or preform surgery upon me as the result of an emotional reaction rather then based on training and experience which encompasses rational critical thinking.

Emotional reaction is a powerful part of being human. It is a very dangerous beast when people push those buttons.

Embarrassed
06-27-2005, 02:26 AM
The question is who is Embarrassed?

Hi "Jon",

You are apt at diversions with your lengthy posts. My reasons for animosity are well stated. What are yours? You are still hiding for no reason.

Embarrassed

jon
06-27-2005, 11:19 AM
My reasons for not disclosing all of my personal information, sex height, DOB, family are all personal and it is a decision I alone make. I don't want to get into my personal background because feel there is a responsibility to my career, my family, and my dojo. I don't wish any of them to be affected by harassment of someone who can't control their emotional state of mind. I don't want them personally attacked, pranked on the net or with phone calls by trolls or others who my disagree with me, that I know nothing of. I wish not to go through that again. I have a right as you to privacy. I do use a first name. I am being honest by stating to some anonymity. I am being far more honest and up front by not making up a name or a cute tag-line.

The nature of the net is anonymity. We may know someone's name ( or think we do, e.g. use of pen names), we are posting to but we don't always know the person. The next reason for anonymity is less personal attacks, and more focus on the topic, thus more quality threads. Far too often when people can't refute and are emotional off balance they go for the jugular of another poster, going after someone personally with the knowledge of their personal background, thereby, going off-topic and turning the thread upside down. Very much like I see you maybe attempting to do.

I have read many good threads that don't send flags waving about abuse in the dojo. There is no vindictive justification and victory celebration at the end of the discussion. No reason to doubt the sincerity of the poster. No tell tail signs of manipulation to gather support born from emotional button pushing. Nothing that make anyone the discussion isn't genuine. BTW, these posters I mention, don't sign with clever tag-lines instead of names and there is no anonymity of the victims who are female and male.

Upon answering your questions, I feel there is no reason to continue this thread. I am not concern with who you are at this point. Your concern has run it's course and has come to an end. Your problem has been solved. I see no other reason to carry on this discussion, unless new information comes to light about it.

ElizabethCastor
06-27-2005, 05:24 PM
I suppose I will obey the suggestion of Zato Ichi... and not feed the troll despite my intense desires to do so.... holding back, h o l d i n g b a c k . . . okay there.... breathing hard

Some really awesome questions were raised in the early part of the thread and I'd love to address those instead.

I've wondered, and I'll wonder again, whether men are generally easy, and therefore less apt to observe abuse, or we observe it, and ignore it out of some role we've been dealt, or a mix of both.


I loved this question... because I've considered the difference between the sexes question a lot lately. I am a woman and I teach 12-14 year-olds daily. I have observed a marked difference in how boys and girls handle issues and problems that usually arise out of joking around. It has always seemed that the boys tend to either drop it immediately or choose to face the issue head-on more often than not. The girls tend to let things lie around longer, they don't mix-it-up. Some of them dwell on it and come to thier own solutions, while others let it fester until the situation has repeated a few times and then they blow up... usually at what were their best friends a few hours before. Now, obviously, I can't speak in absolutes... there are scrappy, fighter type girls and meditative, moody boys jumbled in there for good measure!

I don't think that the guys in a dojo are less sensitive nor do I think that ladies in a dojo are more sensitive... rather I notice a difference of "sensitivity technique". Women tend more toward contemplative coping. We'll ask questions when we're unsure, or (what I catch myself doing) slow down or even stop and observe a little. When in doubt we talk; usually with other women, not because we want to be secretive or we're embarrassed but because it just may be more comfortable.

The guys I've trained with (and again I'm writing from my humble, non-male POV) usually just train and if you're doing something that isn't right (be it a technique-needing-correction or outright abuse) they'll confront it. You hear about it right away, or at least as soon as it is noticed (we all need process time).

As a kind of difference between the sexes point of reference I offer my little (?) story....

I was always the biggest kid in class until I got to high school. Rather an interesting position for a growing girl. I got some of the same messages from my folks about playing nice and being a little more gentle a) because I was a young lady and b) because when we rough-housed somebody other than me usually got hurt.
Fast forward to my grown-up self learning my first lessons in aikido. "No, you throw a punch like this." It was an odd experience! I had never been asked to train these kind of overtly "agressive" movements, in fact, I can remember being told never to do that (from a mom and dad who lived during women's lib supportive but not active). I had to overcome some feeling of wrongness with it. Was it major? No, but it was learning. And the first time sensei did a breakfall from a technique I did... whoo :hypno: :freaky: :crazy: but I learned to be okay with that too. Mostly how I learned was by talking to the other females in the dojo... I asked them if this learning felt a little weird to them too. The answer was generally yes. That made me feel more normal and that concerned little voice in my head went away. Sometimes that learning doesn't happen or rather the comfort level never comes and then the female leaves... was it necessarily abusive, no. Do the guys pick up on it? Maybe not. Is that wrong? IMO, no just different technique.

Ron Tisdale
07-03-2005, 10:50 AM
Very nice story Elizabeth, thanks for that.
Ron

makuchg
07-04-2005, 07:47 AM
Building on what Elizabeth wrote, my wife and I worked with troubled teens in the late 1990's. You are absolutely right about how boys and girls process emotions. Boys are very direct (in general) and girls tend to bottle up until they explode. If two boys were upset, they usually had it out and were done while girls would fester until the issues "explodes" on the whole house.

aikigirl10
07-04-2005, 11:34 AM
Im extremely disgusted and angered by this story. Aikido as defined by O'Sensei , is the art of peace. It really makes me mad that any sensei would even dare hurt someone intentionally and then sexually harrass someone. It really p!sses me off. I agree w/pretty much everyone else is saying that u need to leave that dojo soon and never go back . And yes 120 dollars is ridiculous , for my dojo its only $35 and we practice 3 times a week. You and your gal pal are getting ripped off and you are not being taught the compassionate aikido that i have always known and loved.

Just thought i'd state my opinion.
-paige :mad: