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Aragorn
05-06-2005, 06:15 PM
would Shomenuchi Eacheo irimi work in a street fight? Would the attacker attack shomenuchi? Or would he just punch or kick? Or would this happen to you :dead: ? seeing as im a yellow belt please excuse my stupid\ignorant questions ;)

ChrisHein
05-06-2005, 07:30 PM
It's cool, lots of people are still asking this question after years and years of training. My recommendation is to go somewhere where they actually hit each other, not a school where they pretend to hit each other, but a boxing school, or a muay Thai school, something like this and practice your techniques. Find out what happens, then you can come back and tell all of us. If you stay there long enuff, you'll prolly learn Aikido better then most.

-Chris Hein

James Davis
05-06-2005, 08:02 PM
Whether someone would attack with shomen uchi probably depends on what they have in their hand. If they have a knife, probably not, but what if the weapon they're wielding is a beer bottle? It happens sometimes. In my humble opinion, the best thing you can practice to prepare for a tussle is AWARENESS. Look around. A lot of fights start with a sucker punch. Don't decide ahead of time what techniques you'll use. Just react to what the attacker gives you. Take care!

Ketsan
05-06-2005, 08:04 PM
You could face any technique from any martial art plus anything that naturally comes to people when they're being violent.
There's lots of people that will say that you wont fight a martial artist because we as a group don't start fights and that therefore you don't need to worry about anything other than punches. Out on the street, where everyones sober, maybe. In a bar or a club at 2 am after a good nights drinking they're as likely as anyone to kick off.

So I say you could face anything.

ChrisHein
05-07-2005, 12:19 AM
"There's lots of people that will say that you wont fight a martial artist because we as a group don't start fights and that therefore you don't need to worry about anything other than punches. Out on the street, where everyones sober, maybe. In a bar or a club at 2 am after a good nights drinking they're as likely as anyone to kick off.

So I say you could face anything."

Thats a nice post!

-Chris Hein

CNYMike
05-07-2005, 01:42 AM
would Shomenuchi Eacheo irimi work in a street fight? Would the attacker attack shomenuchi? Or would he just punch or kick? Or would this happen to you :dead: ? seeing as im a yellow belt please excuse my stupid\ignorant questions ;)

Would someone come at you with shomenuchi? I doubt it. But shomenuchi ikkyo is one of the first things you learn, so it's a good bet there are a lot of important ideas wound up in it, epscially when I pay attention to how it feels as uke. These ideas should be found in other techniques.

As to whether ikkyo itself would really work -- I'm the wrong person to ask; I don't know. But if someone swears by it, I'm not going to call that person a liar.

Aragorn
05-07-2005, 09:13 AM
Thanks for all your replies! :cool:

Regards,

SeiserL
05-07-2005, 10:21 AM
IMHO, the question isn't if a technique is effective in the street, but are you.

Barrett Condy
05-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Shomenuchi contains fundamental elemements of a type of attack (i.e. straightforward, commited and targeted at the head). Like many of the stylized attacks in Aikido, I think we train in it to become familiar with how react to that type of attack rather than one specific attack.

Ikkyo is an effective technique, but it also contains elements of defense that can be used seperately from the actual technique (i.e. entering strong, cutting with the hands rather than grabbing, and proper maai and timing).

I think Aikido is unique because of its levels of complexity, versus straightforward attack and defense techniques. It teaches us, through method repetition, to be better people, both in our self defense, and in our personalities. By learning to be brave in the face of danger and adversity and seeing an attack as an opportunity for action (things I've been told Ikkyo teaches) you might never even have to get in a streetfight, and that's more important that winning one, I think.

CNYMike
05-07-2005, 11:08 AM
Thanks for all your replies! :cool:

Regards,

You're welcome; hope it helped.

Aragorn
05-07-2005, 11:41 AM
It really did help.
I was kinda curious and now i got a good answers! Thanks for answers!




Regards,
:ai: :ki: :do:

Brian Vickery
05-07-2005, 11:55 AM
IMHO, the question isn't if a technique is effective in the street, but are you.
...I second this response! ...great answer Lynn!

Ketsan
05-07-2005, 01:06 PM
IMHO, the question isn't if a technique is effective in the street, but are you.

Question. Are you more effective before or after learning the technique?

ChrisHein
05-07-2005, 02:01 PM
"Question. Are you more effective before or after learning the technique?"

If you took two identical twins and one trainded it and the other nothing would there be a differance.

-Chris Hein

Ketsan
05-07-2005, 05:06 PM
"Question. Are you more effective before or after learning the technique?"

If you took two identical twins and one trainded it and the other nothing would there be a differance.

-Chris Hein
And the difference would be the techniques?

I don't understand how you can seperate yourself from your knowlege, experience and skills. To my mind if a properly learned technique is executed properly it should work if it's to be called effective. If it doesn't work blaming the individual seems a little odd.

Aragorn
05-07-2005, 05:47 PM
once it has been provin' by a couple of different levels of experienced people, you will be able to prove that it IS the individuals fault!!!

Regards,
:ai: :ki: :do:

CNYMike
05-07-2005, 06:28 PM
And the difference would be the techniques?

I don't understand how you can seperate yourself from your knowlege, experience and skills. To my mind if a properly learned technique is executed properly it should work if it's to be called effective. If it doesn't work blaming the individual seems a little odd.

True, but the point is one of the twins would do the training and the other would not. That's the difference.

Ketsan
05-07-2005, 07:58 PM
True, but the point is one of the twins would do the training and the other would not. That's the difference.
Yeah but the point is if the trained twin has been taught to Samba thinking it's a martial art, he's going to hospital. His bro, relying on his raw fighting skills might just, however, walk out of there.
It's the quality of the techniques you're using combined with being good at them, not just the fact that you're good at them so if your techniques are pants so are you.

CNYMike
05-07-2005, 09:56 PM
Yeah but the point is if the trained twin has been taught to Samba thinking it's a martial art, he's going to hospital......

Myabe, but we're not talking about someone being taught to Samba thinking it was a martial art, we're talking about someone being taught a martial art.

justinc
05-07-2005, 11:16 PM
I was wandering through a side alley on my way to the ATM during the middle of the day in a far northern NSW (Oz) town called Lismore a couple of months back. Not quite sure what was going on, but one guy hassling another in front of crowd of people seated outside a cafe - the receiver looking more like a street drunk than not. After much provoking, the reciever finally took a swing at the provoker in pretty much a perfect Yokomen strike, complete with some sort of glass bottle in hand. I'll leave the rest to your imagination, suffice to say that the provoker then proved that he was one of those people that should never have received martial arts training in the first place.

The basic point is that the attacks used in Aikido are reflected in what one could expect in the real world.

Nick Simpson
05-10-2005, 06:02 AM
In the ' real world' you could expect to expect the unexpected, an attacker could and probably would attack in any way. Grabbing before punching is common, as is bottling etc etc. it depends on the situation, environment and the aggressor.

It is pretty doubtful someone would attack you with a perfect shomen uchi, but that is not to say that shomen uchi is a weak strike. I myself have broken someones nose with this strike (not something im proud of btw) and i've also seen another aikidoka's nose get broken with shomen uchi. If delivered correctly it can be a very poweful strike, the knife edge of the hand is particularly suited to striking (see armed and special forces hand to hand techniques) and is less likely to result in the striker getting hurt e.g. a broken knuckle, fingers or lacerations.

ian
05-10-2005, 08:33 AM
Another importance of shomen uchi is that the elbow is low - often making it difficult to do such techniques as ikkyo, if the cut has been completed. Thus it is useful to practise this attack (many wuchi people would do vertical punches and also keep the elbows low).

I think aikido is good at dealing with sudden lunging type attacks or any type of grabs - although it has applications in sparring, I think it can be difficult to use in sparring. It is useful to learn how to strike as well, so that, if people hold back too much in their attacks, you can strike (even you need to?!)

Ian

ian
05-10-2005, 08:35 AM
PS my favourite strike would be yokomen uchi to the neck - far more effective and versatile than any punch.

Nick Simpson
05-10-2005, 09:10 AM
MMM, yokomen to the neck is nice. Lots of vital areas and arteries to mess with...

jxa127
05-10-2005, 10:12 AM
Hi all,

I read a report a fews years back where somebody compiled a list of knife attacks and ran a statistical analysis on the circumstances. The most common attack, by far, was an overhead strick (ice pick attack). The most common target/wound area was the back of the neck.

Two things struck me about this study (if you'll pardon the pun): (1) the overhead attack is a lot like shomen uchi, and (2) never turn your back on somebody with a knife!

Regards,

Yann Golanski
05-10-2005, 10:50 AM
For those interested in doing some research the following URLs may help: http://www.jtrauma.com/ which is the main site for the Journal of Trauma and http://www.europeantrauma.net/ which is its European brother.

Such papers as "Mortality and Prognostic Factors in Penetrating Injuries of the Aorta", "Violence-Related Injury and Intimate Partner Violence in an Urban Emergency Department" and "Stab Wounds to the Head with Intracranial Penetration" should give you all the evidence to convince you that if you are attacked by a knife yeilding maniac you should give your walet and run for it not practice half-learned Aikido techniques.

Ian Williams
05-10-2005, 09:21 PM
I study Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu but hey - we're distant cousins..

I've been watching a lot of fights started by sportsmen (typically in our Aussie Rules football) and a LOT of the punches delivered as a cross between a straight punch and a roundhouse.. it's a sort of diagnonal straight punch to the head with a little bit of roundhouse in it..

In our system we practice a lot against straight punches (karate style) and hugely telegraphed round houses (drunken brawl type sloppy roundhouses) but these quite nasty 'diagonal' punches are a bit of a challenge. I practice 'reflex' sparing with some of the higher belts in our dojo (me, the attacker being able to deliver any attack I wish) and these sorts of punches often result in clean hits to the head.

If you're really interested to know if your techniques will work in a street/real fight situation then it pays to watch real fights and evaluate whether these are the sorts of attacks you're training against.

eyrie
05-11-2005, 08:35 PM
I believe that's called "the cross" - c/f boxing.

Dazzler
05-12-2005, 07:16 AM
For those interested in doing some research the following URLs may help: http://www.jtrauma.com/ which is the main site for the Journal of Trauma and http://www.europeantrauma.net/ which is its European brother.

Such papers as "Mortality and Prognostic Factors in Penetrating Injuries of the Aorta", "Violence-Related Injury and Intimate Partner Violence in an Urban Emergency Department" and "Stab Wounds to the Head with Intracranial Penetration" should give you all the evidence to convince you that if you are attacked by a knife yeilding maniac you should give your walet and run for it not practice half-learned Aikido techniques.

Very convincing.

Theres not much in my wallet anyway...but no one is having the credit cards from my sock....who would want them ?

xuzen
05-13-2005, 04:19 AM
would Shomenuchi Eacheo irimi work in a street fight? Would the attacker attack shomenuchi? Or would he just punch or kick? Or would this happen to you :dead: ? seeing as I'm a yellow belt please excuse my stupid\ignorant questions ;)

Work is slow today so I have got some time to kill before shift end, so please allow me to answer your questions:-

Q1) Would Shomenuchi Ikkyo Irimi work in a street fight?
A1) Yes. So would any aikido tech that are short, sharp and simple. Think atemi atemi atemi. In a street altercation... go for simple technique.

Q2) Would the attacker attack shomenuchi?
A2) Shomenuchi represent the vertical overhead strike. Yes, I believe it does happen. Beer bottle overhead strike is an example of shomenuchi, ice pick stab is also another example.

Q3) Or would he just punch or kick?
A3) Yeah, why not? As long your opponent has feet and fists, why not?

Q4) Or would this happen to you :dead: ?
A4) Dead or alive, not entirely up to mortals, Some divine presence upstairs control issues such as that. However, luck favours those who are prepared.

In a street fight, probably the biggest issue is intent. You must be mentality prepared to bring the opponents down. Going in half hearted will result in your disadvantage, no matter how technically skilled you are. So before you decide on confrontation... size up what and who you are up against. If your intuition tells you that you can defeat him, go for it. if your intuition tells you otherwise, back down and live to fight another day. Oh, don' t forget to train and hone your skill in your dojo when not in street fight.

Boon.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2005, 09:03 AM
Would the attacker attack shomenuchi?

Who cares? Many styles practice this technique such that shite/nage attacks first. Couldn't care less if uke attacks shomenuchi or not...I'm doing the technique with their face if they don't block my strike. :)

Ron (in a perfect world that is [which this ain't])

maikerus
05-13-2005, 07:47 PM
Who cares? Many styles practice this technique such that shite/nage attacks first. Couldn't care less if uke attacks shomenuchi or not...I'm doing the technique with their face if they don't block my strike. :)

Ron (in a perfect world that is [which this ain't])

Hey! I was just going to say that! I read the whole thread...got to the last post only to find out that Ron pre-empted me. <sigh>

What he said :)

--Michael

makuchg
05-15-2005, 09:24 PM
PS my favourite strike would be yokomen uchi to the neck - far more effective and versatile than any punch.

Just curious, have you ever tried this in an actual altercation? I only ask because small target strikes tend to be secondary attacks if, and only if a primary large area attack opens up the vulnerability.

This is such a limited strike and you are using the smaller bones in your hand as the impact weapon, it is impractical (unless you have trained to strengthen these bones). Any strike which uses small bones as impact weapons is weak. A preferred strike would be a palm heel, which uses the large bones in the hand.

Nick Simpson
05-16-2005, 08:53 AM
The Tegatana? Wouldnt this strike be with the edge of the palm/hand, not with the fingers and therefore roughly comparable to the palm heel? (palm heel is also nice, I agree).

samurai_kenshin
05-16-2005, 10:54 AM
Irimi nage is good, I think. The palm heel is probably one of the best attacks you can do with your hand. Yes, the beer bottle is alot like a shomen strike (well, for me it's a gatorade bottle, but more or less the same concept)

Ian Williams
05-16-2005, 10:26 PM
I'll second the palm heel and raise you a hammer first or a back fist.. I'm not much into straight punching solid things - that hurts..

Randathamane
05-17-2005, 09:40 AM
How do you know they are not trained?
How do you know they are not drugged up?
How do you know that they are not faster then you?
How do you know you can actually foresee the attack?
How do you know you could make a dodge?
How do you know which way they will come?
How do you know it is not a feint?
How do you know it is not a deception?
How do you know it is not a combo?
How do you know if he is alone?
How do you know if you have help?
How do you know if you are in the right?
How do you know he is not better than you at fighting?
How do you know he hasn't go weapons?
How do you know if he is armored?
How do you know he is going to attack?

How do you know?- You don't.

A. you can only defend yourself from an attack- that means he has the edge, because he takes the initiative.
B. Every move you make CAN be countered. there is a way out of everything
C. You now have to respond or be contempt to block and parry all day
D. If you block and parry all day you only need to make one mistake...
E. You WILL make that mistake.

street fights are one of the hardest things on earth. Pitched battle- no problem backup left, right and center- if the technique doesn't work disappear to fight another while the allies deal with him.

In a street fight you need to be able to move in whatever posture you find yourself in. Kotegaeshi is the best. You can do it on the cut, you can do it on the jab you can even move to grab them and do it. thats my opinion along with the facts above. May be wrong, but it has served me well thus far.

if you are going to do aikido in a street confrontation then pick the simple, quick trows that send them down for the count.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Nick Simpson
05-18-2005, 07:42 AM
" You can only defend yourself from an attack- that means he has the edge, because he takes the initiative. "

Not strictly true. You can preempt their attack when you think you are in danger/trouble while they are busy shouting/posturing/sqauring up, whatever.

Of course you cant really defend against a sucker punch. In that case it is how you respond after the initial blow that will dictate your success.

Personally I probably wouldnt bother with throws in a real combat situation, unless they were a gift that I could not miss (which is extremely rare in a fight), I would just strike and possibly lock/pin depending on the situation. No pins or lengthy locks if there are multiple opponents of course.

I have found that the theories of aikido work best for real, e.g. mai, irimi, atemi, timing and kokyu.

Techniques should never be forced, they should just happen.

Aikilove
05-18-2005, 08:08 AM
I second that. Elsewere in this forum I described about an event where I was attacked by two men (punch+kick). What happend? The first ones punch I sidestepped (to his inside) and he lost balance and fell efter some contact from my part. The second one came with a kick . I sidesteped and irimi to his inside with my hands raised. My movement coupled with his momentum sent his upper body backwards, and that was the end of that.

That is, I moved - then technique happened. My technique became strikes since our relative momentum was opposed and great. (I didn't strike mind you, it's just that to him my hand at his torso/neck became a strike at that speed.

For me I have never thought about technique in these situations (not many that's for sure) only to move. Actually I haven't thought much at all. I just moved.

*Don't know if that gave much to this discussion actually!*

Ron Tisdale
05-18-2005, 08:16 AM
Jacob, I think your post gave a lot! That is pretty much the way I'd like things to work...and from what little I've seen, its pretty darn good aikido.

Best,
Ron

Nick Simpson
05-18-2005, 08:59 AM
Also sounds good to me Jakob!

makuchg
05-18-2005, 10:15 PM
Remember the fight begins long before the first physical contact. The fight begins in the mind. A prepared person has fought the fight subconciously and is prepared mentally, well before the surprise attack. Situational awareness is the first step to street fight success.

I've posted this in other threads (don't remember if I did here or not), the formula for success in actual combat (real life and death)-
Survival = Escalating effective violence faster than your opponent.

If he's willing to punch, I'm willing to gauge out his eyes! If he wants to bite, I'm willing to shatter his mandible! If he's willing to pull out a knife, I'm willing to put two rounds in his chest!

If you are training in martial arts for self-defense, not just philosophical ideals and you are not training the mind for combat, you are failing in your training.

ikkitosennomusha
05-19-2005, 09:11 AM
It's cool, lots of people are still asking this question after years and years of training. My recommendation is to go somewhere where they actually hit each other, not a school where they pretend to hit each other, but a boxing school, or a muay Thai school, something like this and practice your techniques. Find out what happens, then you can come back and tell all of us. If you stay there long enuff, you'll prolly learn Aikido better then most.

-Chris Hein


This was one issue I strived to work on at my former place of training. It was so annoying when uke would attack, I would stand there, and then uke would not follow through with the attack and stop before I got hit. I would do that from time to time when I detect that an attack was not altruistic in intent and ask "what are you doing"?

In time with all the deshi, I eventually got everyone to understand the importance of a real attack. It is possible to yield a real attack and still maintain order and a safe environment. This is crucial when training aikido.

Through this type of hard training, I became relaxed and able to respond witout thinking because thee is no time to think. Eventually you can see the attacks before they happen if that makes sense. Anyone else experience this?

CNYMike
05-19-2005, 11:15 AM
.... If you are training in martial arts for self-defense, not just philosophical ideals and you are not training the mind for combat, you are failing in your training.

Except that in our society, there are legal restrictions on how much force a private citizen can use to defend himself or herself. Which is probably why one of my instructors has always said that your goals in self defense are survival and escape. Note that leaving the other person lying on the street in a pool of their own blood is not on the list.

Ron Tisdale
05-19-2005, 11:18 AM
It's cool, lots of people are still asking this question after years and years of training. My recommendation is to go somewhere where they actually hit each other, not a school where they pretend to hit each other,

This is interesting...I have bruises on my fore arms today from practicing strikes and blocks for half an hour so that the 4th dan teaching last night could be sure we were really attacking before moving on to technique. We used front strike, side strike, and thrust punch. While these are the typical aikido attacks (they are not jabs, crosses, etc from boxing), we really do strike, and if someone doesn't block move and atemi, they can and do get popped. One brown belt (who's testing on sunday for shodan) is particularly glad my control is still up to par...he'd have a broken nose if it wasn't. :)

I'm getting tired of listening to people who don't train seriously in aikido put it down...if you didn't or don't do these things where you trained/train, fine. Don't extend your practice to the rest of us. People cross train for all kinds of reasons...but we've found the paradigm in our aikido training to work fine for what we expect of it. Doesn't mean it couldn't be broader or different in some way...but it does seem to work for what we want. If you want to do MMA fine...just do it. And if you want to do aikido in addition, that's fine too.

Best,
Ron

makuchg
05-19-2005, 05:06 PM
Except that in our society, there are legal restrictions on how much force a private citizen can use to defend himself or herself. Which is probably why one of my instructors has always said that your goals in self defense are survival and escape. Note that leaving the other person lying on the street in a pool of their own blood is not on the list.

Almost every state (any lawyers feel free to chime in) has deadly force laws that allow the use of deadly force to prevent death or serious bodily harm or to stop a violent felony such as kidnapping, rape, etc. Under such laws, you are permitted to kill someone. Now I'm not advocating using violence as your first choice, what I am advocating is being mentally prepared. All the training in the world won't do you any good if you are not mentally prepared to use it on another human being. It is easy to apply shihonage in training, it is another thing to apply it to an attacker and break their shoulder and elbow.

Now most states will allow you to use escalting force to protect yourself. Obviously you can't kill the drunk in a bar because he swings at you, but a technique to avoid or immobilize is fully justified.

My point was the combat is much more mind than technique so it is imperative you train your mind for the reality of the situation.

samurai_kenshin
05-20-2005, 12:56 AM
just one of my thoughts on this:
Most sreet brawlers are posturing egomaniacs with an insatiable lust for superiority, each one capable of unimaginable evil (actually not unlike politicians). At their weakest moments, like when they're posturing, they are likely to be unaware of you entering, especially if they're high or drunk. I'd stil suggest getting out of there, because as said before in this thread "you don't know if they have weapos or backup (in those cases, when you can't get away, thank god for tanto dori...)

Nick Simpson
05-20-2005, 06:57 AM
Wouldnt even bother trying to defend against a knife or take one. Im currently dealing with the repercussions of a cut from in dojo training where I knew the attack was coming, what attack it was and I still f*ucked it up, the end result isnt something I want to experiance again in whatever shape or form.

Maybe if I also had a knife I might begin to think about facing an aggressor with a knife, but I would expect to get cut. Its how little you get cut and where you receive these cuts that will determine your chance of survival. (But saying as im not in the habit of carrying a knife then this is a moot point :p )

Ketsan
05-20-2005, 05:07 PM
Wouldnt even bother trying to defend against a knife or take one. Im currently dealing with the repercussions of a cut from in dojo training where I knew the attack was coming, what attack it was and I still f*ucked it up, the end result isnt something I want to experiance again in whatever shape or form.

Maybe if I also had a knife I might begin to think about facing an aggressor with a knife, but I would expect to get cut. Its how little you get cut and where you receive these cuts that will determine your chance of survival. (But saying as im not in the habit of carrying a knife then this is a moot point :p )

Knives are pretty much a psychological thing. If you deal with them as an empty hand attack there isn't much problem with them.

CNYMike
05-20-2005, 11:42 PM
.... Now I'm not advocating using violence as your first choice, what I am advocating is being mentally prepared ....


That's a good distinctions to make, because my Kali instructor periodically reminds us to be mindful of things like that. The cops and the courts can be predisposed to think a trained martial artist should be able to handle the situation without using excessive force, so if they think you have, it's actually worse for you. It's an important issue one has to be mindful of; that's why I brought it up.

CNYMike
05-20-2005, 11:51 PM
Knives are pretty much a psychological thing. If you deal with them as an empty hand attack there isn't much problem with them.

Alex, in spite of all our debates, I've never met you, probably never will, and know nothing about you. If you've been in situations where someone has pulled a knife on you and your persepctive after surviving those encounters is as stated above, cool.

But a knife is a world apart from an impact weapon -- including a fist -- in how lethal it can be. All by itself, it is the equivelant of ten years of martial arts training. You shouldn't be paralyzed in fear by it, but you should respect it because it can kill you very easily. So if you've survived knife attacks, great. But if you haven't and you're just assuming it's no different from a fist or a foot, then with all due respect, you are out of your cotton pickin' mind.

Matt Molloy
05-21-2005, 05:06 AM
Knives are pretty much a psychological thing. If you deal with them as an empty hand attack there isn't much problem with them.

I'm afraid that this comes across as ridiculous bordering on insane.

If you grab (even accidentally) an empty hand, you'll probably be alright. If you do this to a knife, you'll definitely have some trauma to the hand.

If an empty hand lands lightly and strokes you, no damage done. Not so with a sharp knife.

The list could go on and on.

Go find an experienced escrima/arnis/kali or any other knife proficient art practitioner. Train with them and when you know what you're talking about, be so good as to post a retraction.

Even do the old drill where you get a training knife, cover it in dye/chalk and, wearing an old t-shirt, do some training.

When you see that t-shirt with the dye on it, think that each mark would have been a cut.

Repeat to yourself, "knives are pretty much a psychological thing."

See if you still believe it.

Cheers,

Matt.

Ketsan
05-21-2005, 01:48 PM
Yokomen utchi with a tanto is still yokomen utchi, tsuki with a tanto is still tsuki, shomen utchi with a tanto is still shomen utchi. At some point if he wants to attack you he has to move his arms towards you and if you deal with that arm movement the knife is meaningless.
Tanto dori is not about dealing with knives. No technique ever invented is about dealing with a knife. Without exception they're about dealing with a PERSON using a knife.

First knife fight I was in is a classic example. I have a mate. His sole martial arts training consists of one karate class about 10 years ago. One night we were out about, saw some lads on the corner, didn't think much. Next thing we know they're demanding money off us and waving knives in our faces. The one that's on my mate is holding a knife to the back of his neck and searching his pockets when my mate makes a small step and plants a hook on his jaw. The dude hits the floor, totally out of it.
Where was the all powerful knife? In his unconcious hand, totally safe and harmless. Did the knife stop the hook? Did the knife render it's owner mystical powers of invincibilty? There is no mystical power to the knife, it's only as effective as the person carrying it and we know how to deal with them because a knife is only an extension of that person.

Deal with the knife carrying strike, not the knife.

Simple experiement, give a tanto to someone in the dojo, take them by the wrist holding the tanto and tell them to stab you. While they're doing this imagine how many times you could have punched them in the throat, or choaked them. Who do you think would have died first?

So I say again. A knife is mostly psychological.

Ketsan
05-21-2005, 02:11 PM
Second knife fight I was in I was working in a bar. It was closing time, people were drinking up and leaving. One guy and his mate decided that they were special and that the bar should remain open all night. There was a heated argument over wheather the bar was remaining open or not and he threw a punch at me. I blocked took his wrist, delivered some atemi to his face, grabbed him by his coat and dragged him onto the bar. Then I noticed he had a butterfly knife in his hand, dragged him all the way over the bar, got him into a kote-gashi style armlock, arm straight up one foot pinning his shoulder down, bent his wrist gokyo style, held it like that with my right and smacked it with my left, causing him to drop the knife, which was then taken away by one of the barstaff. Then security dragged him out.

Ketsan
05-21-2005, 03:25 PM
Go find an experienced escrima/arnis/kali or any other knife proficient art practitioner. Train with them and when you know what you're talking about, be so good as to post a retraction.


What has someones skill with a knife got to do with the knife? Is his ki stored in the knife or something? Either that or Kail people must be the best boxers in the world because something in their movements is so superior to everything everyone else is doing that they will always hit. Actually your reaction (OMG there's a knife, I've lost) proves my point. Such is your fear of the knife you forget there's a man holding it. Admittedly using Aikido you're probably screwed, it's too slow to deal with the kind of fast attacks you get in kali et el but I do more than Aikido. :D

CNYMike
05-21-2005, 06:20 PM
First knife fight I was in is a classic example. I have a mate. His sole martial arts training consists of one karate class about 10 years ago. One night we were out about, saw some lads on the corner, didn't think much. Next thing we know they're demanding money off us and waving knives in our faces. The one that's on my mate is holding a knife to the back of his neck and searching his pockets when my mate makes a small step and plants a hook on his jaw. The dude hits the floor, totally out of it.
Where was the all powerful knife? In his unconcious hand, totally safe and harmless. Did the knife stop the hook? Did the knife render it's owner mystical powers of invincibilty? There is no mystical power to the knife ....

I'm glad that you have survived these encounters -- the one described above and the one listed in the other message --- but I never said the knife had mystical power. The knife's power is that unlike an impact weapon, you don't have to wind up in order to do serious damage.

There's a video I've scene comprised of videos of cops who have SURVIVED knife attacks. Yes, these guys have guns and clubs and some empty hand technique and go for strength in numbers, and they still get disfigured or killed by people weilding knives. It is not something to make light of. This is why my Kali instructor and his Serak instructor absolutely FORBID training with real knives, even if they are sheathed.


Simple experiement, give a tanto to someone in the dojo, take them by the wrist holding the tanto and tell them to stab you. While they're doing this imagine how many times you could have punched them in the throat, or choaked them. Who do you think would have died first?


If the person someohow manages to wiggle around and slash the arteries in my wrist, I am in trouble.

Here's another experiment:

Give a wooden tanto to someone in the dojo and have him or her rest it on the side of your throat with your blade next to your carotid artery. Think of how many things you can do before they pull their arm back, only maybe the length of the knife, inflicting a life-threatening injury if it's a real knife. Now who's in trouble?

I'm glad you've survived, but you've learned the wrong lessons from your experiences.

CNYMike
05-21-2005, 06:28 PM
What has someones skill with a knife got to do with the knife? .....

Do one minute of kife sparring with one of them, you will know.


Is his ki stored in the knife or something? Either that or Kail people must be the best boxers in the world because something in their movements is so superior to everything everyone else is doing that they will always hit ....

I am a Kali person, and you are missing the point altogether. And, if I may say, being a little offensive.


Actually your reaction (OMG there's a knife, I've lost) proves my point ....

If you'd bother to reread what I actually posted, I acutally counseled against that "OMG!" reaction. No one is talking about being paralyzed by fear of it. We are talking about respecting it for a simple reason: It can kill you a lot easier than an impcat weapon can. That is not hysteria or paranoia, that is fact. Period. You have a good point about dealing with the person attached to it. But if you do not respect, it, you are asking for trouble. You haven't got into it so far. Good for you. But you are wrong not to respect (not fear, resepect) what a knife can do to you.

L. Camejo
05-21-2005, 08:06 PM
Michael has some great points. There is no comparison between someone skilled with a knife and someone who is playing around with one.

The fact is a skilled knife fighter will only let you know that a knife is involved after he has already seriously or fatally wounded you. You will often never see it coming.

Those who pull knives out and wave them around for intimidation effects are often doing it for the psychogical effect they hope it will have and are often neither skilled nor knowledgeable in its proper use. They will tend to do things like hold the person close at "knifepoint" like Alex indicated in his first story and then proceed to think that this intimidation alone will work to stop some form of counter attack on the part of the victim. Some of these folks often don't even have the right mindset to cleanly and fatally knife someone if necessary (i.e. when they flinch), thinking that the intimidation factor alone will be enough for submission. In these cases counterattack is often effective, but it is in no way comparable to a possible encounter with someone who really knows how to kill with a knife and is mentally capable of doing it instantly.

Even in the RMCAT Reality Based training program and other similar programs it shocked many to realise how easily a handgun wielding defender at 21 feet could still be fatally wounded with a knife before he/she got off enough rounds that would effectively stop a motivated knife wielding attacker. And this is in the case of an extremely motivated untrained attacker, not a trained one who may know exactly what targets to strike to maximise the possibility of death (Fairbairn's system comes to mind).

I do agree that the "OMG, freeze and sit there and become sushi" reaction is a possibly fatal one against any sort of real attack, so it is important to condition oneself to get past the knife (or other weapon) and get to the person wielding it. For me the resistance tanto randori training we do has worked for all of my students who have been involved in knife encounters so far, but it is because we keep a healthy respect of what could be done with a knife (studying kali and CQB style attacks and defenses also) in the right hands so we take no chances when we go for the person.

Reality defence has so many unknown factors that it is difficult to simulate all scenarios in any training regimen, this is why knowledge of the psychology and physiology of violence is important alongside any other training.

Just my 5 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Ketsan
05-22-2005, 10:08 AM
Here's another experiment:

Give a wooden tanto to someone in the dojo and have him or her rest it on the side of your throat with your blade next to your carotid artery. Think of how many things you can do before they pull their arm back, only maybe the length of the knife, inflicting a life-threatening injury if it's a real knife. Now who's in trouble?


That sounds like a question of reflexes.

Kevin Leavitt
05-22-2005, 12:36 PM
It is a question of advantage (position) and technological superiority (knife). Respect it.

Matt Molloy
05-22-2005, 12:37 PM
Simple experiement, give a tanto to someone in the dojo, take them by the wrist holding the tanto and tell them to stab you. While they're doing this imagine how many times you could have punched them in the throat, or choaked them. Who do you think would have died first?

So I say again. A knife is mostly psychological.

So far just I'd just agree with what Michael and Larry have said in response but this stuck out a little from everything else you'd said.

What you've just advocated here is to walk into an Aikido dojo and, after giving somebody a tanto, grabbing them by the wrist.

Let's look at that again shall we?

Aikido?

Knife?

Grab them by the wrist.????

Hello??

What attack do we most train against in Aikido?

Hmmm. Could it be a wrist grab by any chance?

So, after they've applied the technique of their choice to your rather unfortunate person, they would then be in a position to insert said tanto in the area of their choice.

Better hope they're in a good mood eh?

At first you came across as knowing little about knife combat. Now you're coming across as knowing little about Aikido too.

Oh dear.

With regard to a knife being mostly psychological, as Larry pointed out, with someone who knows what they're doing you won't even know they have a knife until it's too late.

A knife is a tool. Like all tools it is designed to make certain things easier. Certain nasty people use them to make violent encounters easier for themselves. There is a reason for that.

Nobody is advocating an "Oh My God!" freeze response. They're advocating a respect for the situation and that you increase your knowledge and understanding.

I'm glad that you've been lucky so far in your encounters. I hope that you have no need of that luck in the future but that if you do, it will still be there for you.

Cheers,

Matt.

Matt Molloy
05-22-2005, 12:41 PM
It is a question of advantage (position) and technological superiority (knife). Respect it.

Succinct and to the point. I can only second this.

Cheers,

Matt.

Stefan Stenudd
05-22-2005, 01:17 PM
This thread has clearly moved into the subject of tantodori, defense against knife attacks. Any chance of having the thread renamed or moved to a proper headline?

Sometimes, when I ask the students in the beginning of a class what they would like to practice, in nine out of ten cases they say tantodori. Clearly, it is not practiced enough in most dojos.

Now, attack by knife is something that people can experience in their lifetime - and it can easily become lethal - so I try to treat the subject seriously also in the dojo. I don't want my students to learn something in the dojo that increases instead of decreases their risk in an outside-dojo situation. I hope I succeed, but I would not dream of stating that I am sure of it.

I believe that there are basic, almost mathematical, aspects to any self defense situation: It depends on your training, and that of your attacker. You can apply figures of probability. A weapon immediately increases the odds for the one carrying it, but it never eliminates other aspects of the situation.
I guess that no one would argue that simple fact, although people calculate the probability differently.

Miyamoto Musashi made a very interesting statement about shotguns in his Go Rin no Sho: The disadvantage of the gun, and it's a great one, is that you usually don't see where the bullet hits, if it misses the target - so you have trouble adjusting, in the heat of combat.
Any weapon carries with it a strength to the one using it, but also some weakness - mostly a dependence on the weapon, and an inability to use other means than that.
Those who are very experienced with such encounters, know how to exploit that weakness.

A friend of mine said something quite profound about defense against knife: If you are scared of getting cut at all, then you will probably be fatally cut. Many people tend to pull back their arms, when facing a knife, not to get them cut. So, their bodies are exposed. A costly reflex.

For the aikido student, I strongly believe that aikido - well trained - includes decent (there is no such thing as perfect) defense against knife. You have to have practiced it substantially, though, to trust it in an outside-dojo situation - and still, the probability calculation rules, so that a skilled knife-attacker is quite difficult to defeat even for the very advanced aikido student.

When teaching tantodori, I strongly suggest every teacher to get more "realistic" than might be the case otherwise, not to accidentally foster weaknesses in the student. It is also essential to seriously consider the difficulty of it.

Maybe the conclusion about tantodori is simply: It can be done, but it's not easy.

I have some material on tantodori on my website, but it's mostly about disarming uke, after the technique is done. I am sure that some of you find my instructions ridiculous. If you're interested, here it is:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/tanto.htm

Kevin Leavitt
05-22-2005, 01:32 PM
In the modern army combatives program we recognize knife defenses and practice them somettimes. However not that often. Our philosophy is the winner of the fight is the guy whose buddy shows up with a gun first. Now that is contextual based on scenarios that soldiers face, (we never go in a situation alone). But still I think it is relevant to the civilian side as well somewhat.

I think it is important to always consider that your opponent may be armed, but to train for a knife fight as a sole focus of your training, IMHO, is not productive. Why? because I personally don't think it is realistic to face a knife wielding opponent who will present it so openly. Most knife attacks will be ambush attacks and you won't see it coming. Why do you want to give away the element of suprise if you are the attacker and truely mean to kill your opponent?

I think the way we train in aikido is good cause it always considers the knife attack as a possibility and attempts to limit the exposure you will have to a knife or other weapons.

Musashi is good, certainly you need to enter a fight in the proper frame of mind with no thought to winning or losing (mushin). It is also always better to avoid the fight if you can too. The ones you cannot avoid our ambushes where someone jumps you out of the blue. If they have a knife and have intent on using it, not much you can do but "stop, drop, and roll" (like the fire drill) and hope to minimize the damage.

CNYMike
05-22-2005, 01:36 PM
That sounds like a question of reflexes.

It's not a question of anything, Alex -- it's to illustrate that it takes a lot less physical effort to kill someone with a knife than with a stick or the empty hand. If I want to punch you hard, I have to wind up. If I want to bash your brains in with a stick, again I have to wind up a little bit, so I can build up momentum. Yes, there is such a thing as the one-inch punch from Chinese systems, but there's still a question of a little windup. And no impact weapon can do damage to you while it's being retracted.

But if I have the blade of my knife against your carotid artery, all I have to do is pull my arm back and that's the end of Alex. Even if you manage to hook me in the head, if I sever your carotid, I'm only dead if you hit me really hard; otherwise, you die first. That's all there is to it. No magic, no ki, just a cold hard reality you stubbornly don't want to accept.

I think Larry hit it on the head when he pointed out that an unskilled person will pull a knife to intimidate someone and was not necessarlity prepared to kill you. You might not be here otherwise.

And it can happen very quickly. My Kali instructors like to repeat the story of a little old Filipino man who was found in a park surrounded by some young toughs who'd been cut up really badly. They thought he was covering for someone else when he claimed he disarmed one of the punks and defended himself.

The little old man had a Filipino lawyer, who set up a punching bag in the court room, gave the little old man a knife, and timed in. In one minute, that little old man cut the bag 360 times -- he was making all these quick little cuts.

That's not magic or mystical powers -- it's the reality of the knife. And I know this from having studied Kali beginning in 1997; I took a break through that winter, and picked it up again in 1998, and have done it ever since. I've periodically done knife sparring with Guro Andy (done with a short padded stick), and if it had been a real fight, the slashes to my wrists along would have landed me in deep trouble. And they were almost too quick to block.

And that is why I say you are out of your mind when you equate a knife with the empty hand.

Stefan Stenudd
05-22-2005, 01:48 PM
Dear Kevin,

It is clear that you have the military perspective :)

I believe that the "civil" situations can differ slightly. A knife is often not concealed at all, but flashed around to intimidate victims.
Not that it makes much difference for the conclusions you draw.

I do agree with you that an attacker should be regarded as armed, so proper evasive moves should be made - also in something as seemingly mild as a katatedori attack.

Musashi is good, certainly you need to enter a fight in the proper frame of mind with no thought to winning or losing (mushin).
Mushin, empty mind, was certainly an ideal for the samurai philosophers, but it is my impression that Musashi differed from them on that issue, as well as on many other issues.
He states clearly and repeatedly in his book that he goes into the battle to win it, with whatever means. That's his objective, and I would say that he lets it fill his mind.
Well, that's my interpretation of his principles. As usual: I might be wrong :)

Kevin Leavitt
05-22-2005, 02:39 PM
Of course your objective is to always win. you go in knowing your are going to win. You never fight a battle unless you are going to win. But win you enter that battle you don't consider winning or losing....to do so slows you down and you will surely lose.

This is a timeless principle that is still relevant today.

Didn't explain myself very well. If an attacker shows you his weapon, he is using it as a position of power to coerce you into doing something. His main intent at that point is not to kill, but to coerce you or to protect himself. Assuming he pulled it on you, then he wants something from you, either something you have, a path to what you are blocking, or to satisfiy his ego of power he holds over you.

Your best bet is to quickly figure out what it is that is motivating him and give it to him, unless that includes your life. You've watched too many movies if you think the guy will jump out of a dark alley in front of you and demand your wallet. He will wait until you pass and grab you from behind, that is, unless he too has watched too many movies and is irrational.

I think there are many, many options you have if he jumps in front of you including running the opposite way, finding a block such as a trash can, yelling, talking, giving him your wallet whatever.

If he gets you from behind, well it's probably 50/50. If he hasn't shanked you in the kidney already chances are he just wants something and won't kill you. so complying will probably be best. not to say that he won't, but frankly I am going to probably listen and do what he says instead of posing a threat in a situation in which he clearly has the advantage. You screwed yourself by not paying attention to your surroundings and space and timing so probably not much you can do at this point except pray for mercy.

Ketsan
05-22-2005, 06:01 PM
It's not a question of anything, Alex -- it's to illustrate that it takes a lot less physical effort to kill someone with a knife than with a stick or the empty hand.
No doubt, but you have to get the knife to your opponents body, in the same way that if you want to punch them you have to get your fist to their body and anything which crosses the space between combatants can be blocked or deflected. To me it sounds like your saying chudan tsuki is no problem but chudan tsuki with a knife will always get through and cut or stab.


But if I have the blade of my knife against your carotid artery, all I have to do is pull my arm back and that's the end of Alex. Even if you manage to hook me in the head, if I sever your carotid, I'm only dead if you hit me really hard; otherwise, you die first. That's all there is to it. No magic, no ki, just a cold hard reality you stubbornly don't want to accept.
Well if I just stand there of course I'm dead. If I take your wrist and move away from the knife I'm safe, obviously with some kind of take down. The question is who has the fastest reflexes?


And it can happen very quickly. My Kali instructors like to repeat the story of a little old Filipino man who was found in a park surrounded by some young toughs who'd been cut up really badly. They thought he was covering for someone else when he claimed he disarmed one of the punks and defended himself.

The little old man had a Filipino lawyer, who set up a punching bag in the court room, gave the little old man a knife, and timed in. In one minute, that little old man cut the bag 360 times -- he was making all these quick little cuts.

That's not magic or mystical powers -- it's the reality of the knife. No it's the reality of the man holding the knife, if you change it for another knife he'll still be just as fast.


And that is why I say you are out of your mind when you equate a knife with the empty hand. Oh I don't equate them, I just say that most of the difference is inside the mind of the person facing the knife.

Ketsan
05-22-2005, 07:25 PM
What you've just advocated here is to walk into an Aikido dojo and, after giving somebody a tanto, grabbing them by the wrist.

Let's look at that again shall we?

Aikido?

Knife?

Grab them by the wrist.????

Hello??

What attack do we most train against in Aikido?

Hmmm. Could it be a wrist grab by any chance?

Umm it's an excercise to show that if you control their wrist they'll have a hard time using the knife.
Don't worry though I'll explain the whole wrist taking thing and place it in context.
You grab the wrist to take the knife out of the equation and to take his attention. Now obviously you don't then stand there waiting to be floored like an uke does. So at the same time you use something else to take him out of the equation. My favorite being grabbing the tracea combined with Osoto-otoshi. Now you try defending against a wrist grab when you're being choaked, taken off balance and are also having your legs reaped from under you. Bearing in mind that taking the wrist and throat and kuzushi are simultaneous and the reap is a quater of a second after and this is happening while you think you're attacking, so clear any thoughts you may have of seeing it coming. The whole thing takes about 0.75 seconds.

That's why wrist grabs are always taught as being purely training. In our dojo a grab is explained as a simulated punch. In real life by the time you realise your wrist's been grabbed you've been punched twice.

Remember I'm basing all this on the way I was taught to use a knife which is basically sumerised by either 1) Slash as atemi and stab to finish off 2) Grab and stab 3) Grab, slash and stab. With the slashes going to the thigh, wrists, neck etc.
Appart from all your take downs from behind obviously. Although obviously not in Aikido where we only do all your basic attacks but with a knife.

Matt Molloy
05-23-2005, 05:00 AM
Umm it's an excercise to show that if you control their wrist they'll have a hard time using the knife.

Ahem. Grabbing the wrist doesn't automatically lead to controlling the wrist.

Don't worry though I'll explain the whole wrist taking thing and place it in context.

Thank you. So kind.

You grab the wrist to take the knife out of the equation and to take his attention. Now obviously you don't then stand there waiting to be floored like an uke blah....blah.... yadda..yadda....what I'd do in this situation.....and then I woke up....blah....blah...ink you're attacking, so clear any thoughts you may have of seeing it coming. The whole thing takes about 0.75 seconds.

Wow. Just like that?

I had no idea.

0.75 seconds.

Wow!

I assume that they are just letting you do this?

Because if they aren't, you could well be in trouble.

That's why wrist grabs are always taught as being purely training. In our dojo a grab is explained as a simulated punch.

Strange. Everywhere I've ever trained, if we wanted to train against a punch, we got somebody to try and punch us. Wild but true. ;)

In real life by the time you realise your wrist's been grabbed you've been punched twice.

But what happened to your quick reactions? Or are you assuming that you're the only one who has them?

What if..*gulp*...They have them too? :D

Remember I'm basing all this on the way I was taught to use a knife which is basically sumerised by either yadda...yadda..in my dreams I'm the only winner...yadda...blah..blah.....eck etc.
Appart from all your take downs from behind obviously. Although obviously not in Aikido where we only do all your basic attacks but with a knife.

Sumerised?

Never mind.

Where to start with this mess?

One of the reasons for wrist grabs in Aikido is that the systems of Ju-Jutsu that eventually became modern Aikido were developed by people who would be armed and would possibly have other people trying to neutralize those arms by employing the wrist grab.

"But who on earth would try and stop someone with a tanto by grabbing their wrist?" I hear you cry.

Mr Lawrence?

As other people have so eloquently pointed out, in the case of somebody who knows what they are doing with a knife, they would have used it before you were aware that it was there.

The idea that you would be the hero of some kind of gladiatorial battle in an urban/street setting against some stereotypical "street punk" a la (gods and Jun forgive me for saying his name on Aikiweb) Steven Seagal belongs in the movies and should stay there.

Your posts on this matter started out as arrogant and a little naive, they've become a little bit patronising and daft.

My advice?

Firstly, go to your sensei, tell them that you could stop them using a training tanto by dint of your super reflexes and tactics (which include the idea of immobilising an Aikido sensei by grabbing his/her wrist ;) ) and, when they've wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes see if they'll let you try.

When you've picked yourself up from the dojo floor a couple of times, see if you still think your ideas would work.

Secondly, find a FMA group and see what people who train in a knife based system can really do.

Thirdly, be so good as to let us know if these experiences change your point of view.

Cheers,

Matt.

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 06:26 AM
This is getting more and more similar to a street brawl ;)

I'm happy to stay out of the fight, but I still feel the need to say something in defense of katatedori - wrist grabs.

I also believe that they were originally important i budo, because they were intended to stop tori from drawing the sword - and of course they should not be regarded as solitary things. Wrists were grabbed, followed up with all kinds of things.

The wrist grab, I find, is an effective beginning for getting control of an opponent. It is easily followed up with breaking the other one's balance, or a pinning (not to mention all kinds of strikes). Also, a good wrist grab is not that very easy to get out of, for the unexperienced. Anyone who ever tried to do a technique on Tamura sensei will know this :)

I go back to my probability calculations: The skilled tori can start the defense with a wrist grab, quickly followed up by other stuff. If the uke (with or without a knife) is even more skilled - well, I don't have to spell it out.

makuchg
05-23-2005, 06:57 AM
Ok, time to chime in. Want to see how effective you are against a knife? Get a white T-shirt and a fat, permanent red marker. Now have an attacker (skilled, unskilled, try different people) attack you (you're wearing the white T-shirt). After the attack, look at yourself for red marks. Keep in mind the marker only has a tip, a knife has the whole blade. Most people are quite surprised at the number of red marks on their arms, hands, and body.

Someone said it earlier, if you fight with knives expect to get cut. From what I've learned, you're going to get cut, the key is keeping the cuts to non-vital areas as best you can. The winner of a knife fight is the guy who is bleeding less at the end.

Randathamane
05-23-2005, 08:08 AM
Not strictly true. You can preempt their attack when you think you are in danger/trouble while they are busy shouting/posturing/sqauring up, whatever.

You are going to instantly know what attack they will perform are you? What, do you have the gift of the force master Jedi? No man can see the future and a fighter who knows nothing knows nothing of posture and so cannot embrace one. One cannot stand in aiki-posture or Kami if they do not know what it is- if anything the aikidoka will lose the edge as they WILL be trying to establish posture....

i have two arms and two legs- which will i use?
How will i use them? round and hook or perhaps the direct strike. But then again you could always go with the uppercut- or even the down cut...
Oh-how about elbows and knees to really do damage- then again i could stay distant, using fast long ranged strikes.

Grappling- didn't think of that, perhaps a sort of rugby tackle- jumping kicks or flying fists. Head butt- thereís a goodun.

as i said before- you know not what the enemy will do, as aikido is purely defensive (ref Shihan of the UKA or even Saito sensei) i fail to see how a defender can take the initial initiative of combat- Aikidoka can counter and throw/ lock- but they must fight to the enemies pace and game. They are the ones that determine the speed, they are the ones that dictate the technique, they are the ones that are coming in first.

Thatís my view on the topic.....

:ai: :ki: :do:

Ketsan
05-23-2005, 08:27 AM
I assume that they are just letting you do this?

Because if they aren't, you could well be in trouble.

No, you're crushing their wind pipe and taking their balance. It's an either or situation. Either they try and stop you throttling them, which they have a matter of seconds to do before they pass out or they do something about their wrist and either way they're being thrown. I don't see that they have too much of a choice. If you pile your body weight into them (as you would in a life or death situation) or you have strong hands you'll stand a chance of crushing the tracea in which case it's all over for them, simple as that. As far as I know they're dead in about 4 minutes, something like that but they pass out long before that, like 40 seconds or something. So no, they're not just letting you do it.


Strange. Everywhere I've ever trained, if we wanted to train against a punch, we got somebody to try and punch us. Wild but true. ;)

Yeah but usually you teach the technique and then you throw in the punch. Keeps the newbies happy.


But what happened to your quick reactions? Or are you assuming that you're the only one who has them?

What if..*gulp*...They have them too? :D

Then it'll be life where anything goes as I've been trying to get past your preconceptions. You're happy to rant on about how fast an expert with a knife is, why can't someone else be just as fast? Yes he has a knife. Yes he knows what he's doing with it, yes he's fast but that's only him and he's only half the equation here. What about the person he's facing? Unlike you I'm not making out that I or anyone else will always win, I'm just pointing out the obvious: The knife expert will not always win either.

That is not arrogance or ignorance, that's life. In the interplay of martial arts, personality and experience anything is possible.


One of the reasons for wrist grabs in Aikido is that the systems of Ju-Jutsu that eventually became modern Aikido were developed by people who would be armed and would possibly have other people trying to neutralize those arms by employing the wrist grab.


Actually Ju-jitsu started off as part of knife fighting. Often during the Gempei wars Samurai would end up grappling, certainly the Heike Monogatari makes it out to be this way, and so the tanto was the weapon of choice. Remember though that Ju-jitsu is as much a last resort for a unarmed Samurai as it is a response to being grabbed while armed, which is where tantodori, jodori and all your tachidori came from. During the Sengoku era Ju-jitsu was as full of weapons as any martial art for this reason. On the battlefield you could end up unarmed and facing anything. So you're telling a half truth there.
Remember also that even armed combat involved a lot grappling, kicking and punching there wasn't the Edo period distinction between armed and unarmed yet. Hence Kenjitsu ryu would teach throws, locks and takedowns and Ju-jitsu ryu would teach sword and spear techniques. Martial arts were much more pragmatic and less dogmatic back then purely because all the dogmatic ones got wiped out on the battlefield.

As other people have so eloquently pointed out, in the case of somebody who knows what they are doing with a knife, they would have used it before you were aware that it was there.

Answer me this are they faster or slower without the knife? What is it about the knife itself which makes them any faster than they could be with out a knife? Wing chun is damn fast but you can block the punches or get out of range or do something, roll into their feet, whatever. So why is it that when the knife enters into the equation it's suddenly game over? Your argument is a dogmatic as the belife that Aikido is invincible.
My entire point is that I don't need to be aware of the knife, I just need to be aware of what they're doing with their hands. Like I said earlier basically what you are de facto stating is that learning to use a knife makes you a brilliant boxer because something about training with a knife makes your hand attacks unstoppable. In any amateur match where it's the contact that counts you'd be racking up points like no tommorrow.
Using your argument I could have taken them down before he even got a chance to draw it and claimed the pendant around my neck is unstoppable. It's a poor argument.


Firstly, go to your sensei, tell them that you could stop them using a training tanto by dint of your super reflexes and tactics (which include the idea of immobilising an Aikido sensei by grabbing his/her wrist ;) ) and, when they've wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes see if they'll let you try.

When you've picked yourself up from the dojo floor a couple of times, see if you still think your ideas would work.

Secondly, find a FMA group and see what people who train in a knife based system can really do.

Thirdly, be so good as to let us know if these experiences change your point of view.

Cheers,

Matt.

If I'd suggested that I could immobilise them by holding their wrist I'd be daft and all martial arts would consist of grabbing your opponents wrist.
I said I could stop them stabbing me by holding their wrist long enough to floor them. There's a difference.
Now then if I'm up with my Sensei, or anyone else and he asks for Gakyu hamni (or even if he's standing there pondering what he's going to do next) and I rush in, take his wrist and also his throat and step through him and reap his leg what do you think would happen? He's expecting it as much as the Kail expert would be.

Stratagy, stratagy, stratagy. That's why you do martial arts, to learn that in combat brute strength and technique and weapons can all be over come one way or another and then once that realisation is made you realise that everything in martial arts is psychological. Ultimately it's not your body that moves but your mind.

Randathamane
05-23-2005, 08:28 AM
As other people have so eloquently pointed out, in the case of somebody who knows what they are doing with a knife, they would have used it before you were aware that it was there.

Very true- however the schools of tanto drawing and cutting have declined. this is very true and in such an instance- one cannot defend themselves. One asks the question- why bother with martial arts? Reason because nearly all of the population cannot kill you with a single unseen stroke.

Steven Seagal belongs in the movies and should stay there.

Now hang on he is 7th Dan and trained at hombu for a while. As far as i am concerned unless you are 7th dan or higher, (So hombu) or are a shihan then i do not see how you can criticize.


Firstly, go to your sensei, tell them that you could stop them using a training tanto by dint of your super reflexes and tactics (which include the idea of immobilizing an Aikido sensei by grabbing his/her wrist ) and, when they've wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes see if they'll let you try.

How in gods name do you expect to do a wrist lock with no contact? Ki projection perhaps? Fire ball? Sonic boom?
Sensei comes Tsuki and i tenkan behind him at the same time I grab his wrist, thumb to the back of his hand- i whack Kotegaeshi on and he plummets to the ground- if he did not, the carpacal bones would have been reduced to a powder. Alex is a 3rd kyu in aikido and has experienced more Martial arts to a similar that i would care to name. He does know what he is on about- maybe not to a dan grade level- but he does know this and even gives sensei a run for his money at times.


:ai: :ki: :do:

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 08:31 AM
Get a white T-shirt and a fat, permanent red marker.
That's a good exercise. It is important for uke, though, to think knife and not marker. Different techniques apply :)
Someone said it earlier, if you fight with knives expect to get cut.
That would be me, I believe.
The one who imagines getting through it without any damage, will probably get the most damaged. Notice: this may very well be the one with the knife ;)

wendyrowe
05-23-2005, 08:33 AM
... as aikido is purely defensive (ref Shihan of the UKA or even Saito sensei) i fail to see how a defender can take the initial initiative of combat- Aikidoka can counter and throw/ lock- but they must fight to the enemies pace and game. They are the ones that determine the speed, they are the ones that dictate the technique, they are the ones that are coming in first...
The aikidoka can make a small initial movement that appears to give an opening for a specific type of attack, then can be ready to counter that attack. That's what my Sensei (Jason DeLucia) does, and he's certainly not the only one. In that way, the aikidoka influences the enemy's pace and game rather than being at its mercy.

Nick Simpson
05-23-2005, 08:45 AM
Richard, your post above is so childish I shouldnt even really bother responding but someone has to do it. Hitting someone while they are busy 'intimidating' you doesnt require jedi-like powers of the force or whatever your talking about. It is about making an informed decision and acting on it:

E.g. "This person is probably going to hit me, I dont like them pushing me in the chest or the way they are shouting at me. I think I'll have to hit them before they work up the nerve to hit me."

The rest of your post I strongly disagree with too.

The Aikido I practise is not purely defensive. I am not part of the UKA and have never trained with Saito Sensei. My Aikido is aggressive, I like to practise it in a martial spirit. I like to initiate techniques myself. For instance, tori punches uke, uke blocks the strike, tori performs ikkyo on the blocking arm. This is just a very small part of it.

" Aikidoka can counter and throw/ lock- but they must fight to the enemies pace and game. "

Thats b*llocks. I dont think I need to waste my time explaining why.

How long have you been training Richard? Have you been in or even seen a fight?

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 10:24 AM
Allow me to express a personal opinion, almost an aikido credo.
My Aikido is aggressive, I like to practise it in a martial spirit. I like to initiate techniques myself. For instance, tori punches uke, uke blocks the strike, tori performs ikkyo on the blocking arm.
But is that aikido? To me it is not.
My impression of Osensei is that he wanted to move away from that, and I am sure that I would not be doing aikido for as long as I have, if I felt that it had to be aggressive.

Sure, there is an element in aikido of "triggering" the attack, by an open stance, by a certain movement, and so on. But if tori commences with attacking uke, then I would insist that the aikido idea/ideal is deserted.

makuchg
05-23-2005, 10:42 AM
Allow me to express a personal opinion, almost an aikido credo.

But is that aikido? To me it is not.
My impression of Osensei is that he wanted to move away from that, and I am sure that I would not be doing aikido for as long as I have, if I felt that it had to be aggressive.

Stefan, a little presumptuous to interpret O'Sensei's wishes. If you read "Budo" you will see Aikido has offensive techniques as well as defensive. While almost all offensive techniques are not taught, it is clear to me that O'Sensei originally included them.

While I agree we all have our own interpretation of what Aikido is, to call one person's ideas not aikido (I know that wasn't your exact words, but that was the thought conveyed) because they don't agree with your own is wrong. I think the beauty in Aikido is the ability to be either soft or hard. You control the amount of force or damage, immobilize or incapacitate-the choice is yours. I think O'Sensei's intent was to give that kind of knowledge and foster an attitude towards compassion rather than destruction. However you truly can't be a pacifist until you have the ability to destroy and choose not to.

Dazzler
05-23-2005, 10:44 AM
Hmmm....Aggressive?

I'd prefer positive.

Aikido is martial art - not self defense..... Both irimi and tenkan exist.

Perhaps I could have added to the favourite aikido quotes thread "if there is going to be a fight start it".

I personally dont have any issue with taking positive action to control a situation and don't see that there can be any philosophical objection to nipping a problem in the bud.

To me this is good aiki and can be very effective in many scenarios...attack being sometimes the best form of defence?

Thinking aloud.........

D

Matt Molloy
05-23-2005, 10:50 AM
Alex and Richard,

I'd advise you both to go chat with your sensei and see if he/she can make either of you see sense.

That's all on that subject from me.

As to Aikido being purely defensive, I couldn't disagree more. The philosophy may be compassionate but that doesn't mean that we cut off an entire range of technique.

Nick pointed out just one way in which tori can initiate the sequence and then there's the point that if Aikidoka aren't capable of decent attacks then the training in the dojo will suffer.

If you don't like the terms "offensive" or "aggressive" then perhaps "active" Aikido would work better.

Like that yin and yang symbol we see around all these Aikido websites.

Remove one half and it doesn't make sense.

In all the talk of peace and love people often seem to miss out the idea that O'Sensei was certainly not lacking in martial spirit and his art reflects that.

Sometimes if feels as though we're a group of people trying to learn "the noble art" (boxing) and complaining that punching people isn't very "noble."

Just my opinion.

Cheers,

Matt.

Edit: Got called away whilst posting and didn't see Daren and Gregory's posts before posting.

Great minds.....;)

Ron Tisdale
05-23-2005, 11:11 AM
I tend to agree with the last couple of posts myself...you can fiddle with the terminology, but many styles of aikido definately include what might be termed as attacking/initiating movements. Budo does indeed list some great examples. Almost all the shomenuch ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, yonkajo techniques show omote as shite/nage attacking.

Even in styles where overt attacks might not be used, different phases of 'sen' are used in other ways. Not just go no sen, or reactive time/initiative.

Best,
Ron

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 11:47 AM
I thought I would get some objections ;)

Stefan, a little presumptuous to interpret O'Sensei's wishes. If you read "Budo" you will see Aikido has offensive techniques as well as defensive.
I said "My impression of Osensei is that he wanted to move away from that", by which I meant that he changed through time - and of course I meant it's my impression, only. I never even met Osensei, so how could I claim to know for sure? I don't.
While I agree we all have our own interpretation of what Aikido is, to call one person's ideas not aikido (I know that wasn't your exact words, but that was the thought conveyed) because they don't agree with your own is wrong.
That was not the thought I wanted to convey. Sorry if I was unclear. I said: "But is that aikido? To me it is not." Also I began my post by saying: "Allow me to express a personal opinion." I thought that would make it obvious I was only stating my own credo.
However you truly can't be a pacifist until you have the ability to destroy and choose not to.
Here, I agree with you. I would not say that it is absolutely necessary to be able to destroy, to be a pacifist - but without the ability, it might not be a pacifism of choice but of necessity.

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 11:55 AM
Perhaps I could have added to the favourite aikido quotes thread "if there is going to be a fight start it".
I have some problems with the idea of starting the fight to win it. Mainly: How do you know the fight is unavoidable, if you start it? How do you know there would be a fight, anyway?

Certainly, sometimes you see it coming, a mile away. Other times, though, it is questionable. Like with most - or all - things in life, it is a question of where to draw the line.
Some cases are obvious, but most cases are uncertain.

CNYMike
05-23-2005, 11:58 AM
..... To me it sounds like your saying chudan tsuki is no problem but chudan tsuki with a knife will always get through and cut or stab.



No, I am saying that while an empty hand Chundan tsuki that gets through is a problem, a chudan tsuki with a knife is a bigger problem. The fist will stop at what it hits; the knife will go through it.


Well if I just stand there of course I'm dead. If I take your wrist and move away from the knife I'm safe, obviously with some kind of take down. The question is who has the fastest reflexes?


The person holding the knife only has to make a very small movement. That's the point. Not, "what if someone holds a knife against my carotid?" The point is it takes only a small movement to end your life. Not necessarily the case with a punch.


No it's the reality of the man holding the knife, if you change it for another knife he'll still be just as fast.


And again, the point is to demonstrate the amount of damage that can be done in a very short amount of time with a knife.

There have been surveys of cops who have survived knife attacks, and they say they didn't know the person had the knife until after they'd been stabbed. That give a clue to how fast it is?


Oh I don't equate them, I just say that most of the difference is inside the mind of the person facing the knife.

If by that you mean the person facing the knife weilding attacker shoudln't turn to jelly and be paralyzed in fear by the sight of the knife, I agree with you. In fact, I've said that many times already!

But if you are poo-pooing how deadly a knife can be, then you are flat out wrong. Sorry, you're wrong. Period.

CNYMike
05-23-2005, 12:08 PM
..... Alex is a 3rd kyu in aikido and has experienced more Martial arts to a similar that i would care to name. He does know what he is on about- maybe not to a dan grade level- but he does know this .....

Oh, I'm sure he's very knowlegeable and skilled, and I wouldn't even bet on a fight between him and me; he'd beat me up. No question.

But that doesn't mean he isn't wrong. He is. That's all there is to it.

Ketsan
05-23-2005, 01:46 PM
Oh a knifes deadly but only if you can get it to the target. A knife enhances the power of the strike but not the ability to get through to the target.
Take an opposite here and I'm not being flippant here but imagine this. You're doing whatever when someone jumps out and threatens you with a wooden spoon or even has a damn good go at gutting you with it as if it were a knife. That'd also have a psychological impact, you'd be wetting yourself and wondering what this nutter was on, giving him an opening that he wouldn't otherwise have.
Same with a knife but obviously for the opposite reason.

makuchg
05-23-2005, 02:02 PM
Stefan, Thanks for clarifying your point. It makes more sense now. As for O'Sensei's intents, I think they evolved over the years. What his intent was in his 50's was definitely different than his 80's. This can be seen in the split of some very senior students and the creation of some other styles, such as Yoshikan.

L. Camejo
05-23-2005, 02:54 PM
Ron made a good point about Sen timing (Sen no Sen is another). Aikido is all about taking and controlling the initiative imo. It's not a solely "defensive" martial art - that is a total fallacy.

On another point, I think some folks are confusing speed with deception. Most folks who get stabbed without knowing it or being able to react quickly enough tend to end up in that situation not because they saw a knife and were slow to react, avoid, defend themselves or attack, it is because they never knew a knife was part of the engagement to begin with. The stab tends to be the point where the victim first suspects that a knife is involved.

Having done some training in tactical folding knife (as taught to SWAT and those types), a lot of the training is based on the premise that you never let the target see the knife until after he feels it penetrating a vital organ, artery or muscle. It's all about a calm, deceptive, sharp, focussed surprise attack.

So imo it is not so much about speed, though it does take much less movement to seriously and fatally wound with a knife than it does to avoid being stabbed, effectively block or control the attacker. The main thing is that someone trained to kill with a knife will not allow it to be seen. If you can see it before it is in you, then you may stand a chance to do something and escape.

Just a few thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
05-23-2005, 03:08 PM
I have some problems with the idea of starting the fight to win it. Mainly: How do you know the fight is unavoidable, if you start it? How do you know there would be a fight, anyway?

Certainly, sometimes you see it coming, a mile away. Other times, though, it is questionable. Like with most - or all - things in life, it is a question of where to draw the line.
Some cases are obvious, but most cases are uncertain.


I think you have captured the essence of why to bother studying aikido. Aikido's aim should be to give you options to be able to walk the line and stop a fight before it stops. It may be with a kamae, or it may be with a pre-emptive technique. Of course this is all philosophical in nature, but then again, aikido is a "DO" art.

I tend to think of it not as starting a fight, but presenting a presence so powerful that the other person thinks it foolish to proceed.

You don't start the fight if he/she shows intent first. I think it is possible to fire the first physical move (pre-emptive) without being in the category of "starting".

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 03:28 PM
As for O'Sensei's intents, I think they evolved over the years. What his intent was in his 50's was definitely different than his 80's.
I agree with you, completely. Sorry to have been so vague, to begin with. Hopefully I will also evolve toward my 80's :)

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 03:38 PM
Ron made a good point about Sen timing (Sen no Sen is another). Aikido is all about taking and controlling the initiative imo. It's not a solely "defensive" martial art - that is a total fallacy.
If I am not mistaken, the earliest counter attack timing is the sen sen no sen, which should be done at the moment when uke decides to attack, but has not started moving yet. This, I believe, is central in aikido. In my opinion, it is not the same as starting the fight - although difficult to tell apart, for the bystander :)

Having done some training in tactical folding knife (as taught to SWAT and those types), a lot of the training is based on the premise that you never let the target see the knife until after he feels it penetrating a vital organ, artery or muscle.
That is why it is good aikido strategy to treat every attacker as if armed. For example, moving out of the way of a strike, not blocking it - and so on.

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 03:57 PM
Oh, I might be writing too many posts, now...
Aikido's aim should be to give you options to be able to walk the line and stop a fight before it stops. It may be with a kamae, or it may be with a pre-emptive technique. Of course this is all philosophical in nature, but then again, aikido is a "DO" art.
I tend to think of it not as starting a fight, but presenting a presence so powerful that the other person thinks it foolish to proceed.
Absolutely! I believe that it is possible to have such an attitude that others find it hard to even focus on attacking. To be so "slippery" that the aggression of others does not stick on you. I don't believe that it is a question of intimidating the would-be attacker, but to sort of disappear as a target for an attack. It's all in the mind :)

When I was young, and had done aikido for a few years, I experimented a bit with it (well, I still do, sort of): the attitude that is the most difficult to even think of attacking. Who knows if I succeeded? As always, probability rules. Maybe I managed to avoid some conflicts that otherwise would appear.

I remember a three-step thing, happening to me several times. Somebody out in "real life" showed aggression, and was evidently considering fighting me. I tried to be friendly and yielding, saying nice words. Didn't work (you already knew, didn't you all?).

So, then I gave the guy a little growl, showing that I might not be an easy target, and that I would definitely put up a fight. Didn't work, either. Maybe I was not threatening enough, who knows.

Anyway, after that I just relaxed, and thought: To hell with it. I left it to my reflexes (I was young enough to trust them deeply...).
Immediately at that moment, the guy changed attitude, into something very close to my first approach - being friendly, yielding, saying: "Sorry, no, I wouldn't fight you..." And he hurried off.

This happened to me several times, exactly in the same steps. I started thinking, "Hey, this would be a good strategy," but I don't believe that works. As a strategy, it would not work, only as something genuine - me going through the steps and actually trying them, and then finally just relaxing, leaving it to my reflexes and my center to deal with.

Why did it work? I have my theories, but this post is already far too long ;)

L. Camejo
05-23-2005, 09:16 PM
If I am not mistaken, the earliest counter attack timing is the sen sen no sen, which should be done at the moment when uke decides to attack, but has not started moving yet. This, I believe, is central in aikido. In my opinion, it is not the same as starting the fight - although difficult to tell apart, for the bystander :)

Of course. Initiative in Aikido has nothing to do with "starting a fight" so to speak. In fact the idea is to end the fight as it is starting.

This is why folks who like to "fight" often have issue with Aikido in "fighting" such as in NHB events and self defence situations. One who really uses Aikido effectively does not allow things to degenerate into a fight or struggle. The idea is to resolve the conflict as soon as, if not before they start to get physical imho.

LC:ai::ki:

xuzen
05-23-2005, 10:43 PM
Hey guys,

The last two posts got exciting (Larry's and Stefan's) and tempted me to post a reply.

As for me; at this moment, my aikido training only allows me to 'not lose' an altercation if I maintain my surprise element. My training does not gear me for a slug-it-out type of confrontation. It teaches me to be mentally be prepared, to maintain a certain decorum which keeps all my openings closed to the would be attacker. Maybe it has to be my posture, my demeanour... something non-physical that says... "Keep out, vicious dog inside".

Funny enough, after years of of being an aikido student, I never actually have to use it physically. But using aikido verbally and psychologically I've got plenty of exercise as I work in the service industry. Calming irate customers is my specialty and lessons learned in aikido helped me greatly.

The closest physical altercation I have the opportunity to encounter was once when I had to confront a suspected shop-lifter. He tried to be funny, trying to distract me, using verbal abuses and threats to throw me off course. All I remember was ignoring his verbal threats and abuse and just focused on his body movement... quite akin the aiki-ken exercise we do in the normal dojo environment, i.e., ignore opponent's bokken and focused on body movement.

At last, after creating quite a scene, the would be shop-lifter backed down and walked off. Looking back... I think it must be my very alert demeanour and not offering any opening that forced him to back off.

I would like to believe that the above serves to illustrate what Larry C. said with regards to aikido being used to end confrontation or maybe to maintain harmony even in confrontation as oppose to "starting a fight".

Boon.

Ketsan
05-24-2005, 06:49 AM
Alex and Richard,
I'd advise you both to go chat with your sensei and see if he/she can make either of you see sense.

He'd tell me to get a tanto, then he'd do ikkyo, shi-ho nage, irmi-nage, utchi kaiten nage exactly the same way he would against Shomen, yokomen and tsuki, look at me as if I was mad and ask me what the difference was. Since he'd have done the technique the same way he always does I'd have to say "None Sensei".
Then he'd say something like "The weapon is only an extention of his body".

It happens everytime someone says "But what if he had a knife?".

My Ju-jitsu Sensei would have said something like "There are no techniques for stopping knives, just techniques for stopping people. You might be attacked so suddenly that you don't realise that you're dealing with a knife but you can always react to their movement in some way".

Stefan Stenudd
05-24-2005, 09:07 AM
For what it's worth: I agree with Alex.
Aikido is constructed to work against sword, knife and stuff in between. Do your aikido correctly, and the knife is dealt with.
With reservation for the same old probability law I have mentioned before.

It is interesting to notice that anyone who does not support this above strategy (or possibility) seems to say only: if you face a knife, you're done for.
That's no doubt the very worst strategy :)

CNYMike
05-24-2005, 11:36 AM
Oh a knifes deadly .....

So close! But then you wrote this:


..... imagine this. You're doing whatever when someone jumps out and threatens you with a wooden spoon or even has a damn good go at gutting you with it as if it were a knife. That'd also have a psychological impact, you'd be wetting yourself and wondering what this nutter was on, giving him an opening that he wouldn't otherwise have.
Same with a knife but obviously for the opposite reason.

Except that the wooden spoon couldn't cut me. If he whacked me in the chest with a spoon, I might get a nasty bruise; if he "whacked" me in the chest with a knife, I would be dead if it finds my heart.

You had it right in your first sentence: A knife is deadly. That doesn't mean you're done for. It doesn't mean you can't defend yourself. It does mean the situation is a lot worse for you than if he had an impact weapon like a club or a wooden spoon. This is why Guro Dan Inosanto -- who has probably forgot more than you or I or anyone else here will ever remember -- advises that empty hand defense against a knife is your last line of defense. Better bet is to throw something like a chair at him. The knife is just very, very dangerous.

Now, either Guro Dan is wrong, or you're wrong. My money's on the one who's the head of a Kali system. :)

CNYMike
05-24-2005, 11:39 AM
It is interesting to notice that anyone who does not support this above strategy (or possibility) seems to say only: if you face a knife, you're done for.
That's no doubt the very worst strategy :)

I don't know about anyone else, but I have not been saying, "If you face a knife, you're done for," and I agree that's the worst strategy. I have been saying, "If you face a knife, you are in much worse trouble than if the person has an impact weapon, because it takes a lot less effort to maim or kill you with a knife." That is not the same as "done for;" just that you are in very serious trouble, and should respect the knife's capability to harm you. It is what my Kali teacher has been drumming into us lately, and what I am trying to get across here.

Matt Molloy
05-24-2005, 12:20 PM
For what it's worth: I agree with Alex.
Aikido is constructed to work against sword, knife and stuff in between. Do your aikido correctly, and the knife is dealt with.
With reservation for the same old probability law I have mentioned before.

It is interesting to notice that anyone who does not support this above strategy (or possibility) seems to say only: if you face a knife, you're done for.
That's no doubt the very worst strategy :)

Nobody on this thread has been saying that if you face a knife you're done for. Several people who do know what they are talking about have been saying respect the knife. Appreciate that it does change things.

Several people have said that you can deal with a knife as if it were an empty hand and that it wouldn't make any difference but psychological.

This is rubbish. The empty hand can't cut with a touch as light as a caress. The empty hand can't stab and leave a deep wound.

Anybody who is skilled with a knife can not only tell you why it would make a difference but show you too. To use empty hand technique against a knife is a last resort. (I believe that Mike has already made this point.)

It's all reminiscient of times that I've heard Aikidoka confidently say that they could deal with a skilled swordsman by taking their blade away etc. and not understand why anybody with a modicum of skill in that area listening starts to wet themselves laughing.

FMA practitioners practice a knife based art.

FMA practitioners tend towards the opinion that a knife changes things in an encounter in a very real sense.

Perhaps they know something that you don't.

Read very carefully. At no point has anyone said that when you see a knife, all is lost.

Respect the knife. If you don't it could be the last thing you don't do.

You say that Aikido can deal with "...sword, knife and stuff in between..."

In that case, when the art that was the base for Aikido was developed, why did people continue to make use of weapons if the only difference to any encounter was "psychological?"

Go to a FMA seminar. See what can be done with a knife.

See if you still think that a knife is just a psychological advantage.

Go to a Kendo dojo.

State confidently that your Aikido could deal with a sword and that you could have a shinai off them before being hit.

Try not to feel too silly as they start laughing at you.

Cheers,

Matt.

Nick Simpson
05-24-2005, 12:32 PM
If someone cant accept the inate danger a knife poses, then let them get on with it.

Aikido with a tanto is very different to fighting with a knife.

Kevin Leavitt
05-24-2005, 01:20 PM
In princple i would agree with Alex that you deal with a knife the same way you would deal with not having a knife, your approach is exactly the same.

In reality, it is much different, and I agree with Michael's point of view.

Of course your not necessarily "done for" and it is not forgone that you will get cut. But, the chances have just increased exponentially and the dynamic/tactics of a bladed weapon is much more different than the dynamic of a empty hand so of course your going to have to deal with it much differently.

I really can't say anymore about the realities of it that have not already been expressed above. If you think otherwise, well then so be it.

Stefan Stenudd
05-24-2005, 03:32 PM
I must be very bad at explaining myself.

I did not state that it is easy to do aikido against a knife attack - I just said that aikido is constructed to deal with it. Evasive movements instead of blocks, and so on.

I also stressed the probability thing: if you know your aikido well, your odds are better than if you don't. Also - and this is very important - the better the attacker is trained with the knife, the worse odds you have.
On the other hand, if the attacker is not trained with the knife (and that is quite often the case "in the street"), your odds are increased. Not that you want to bet on it with your life, but that's probability at work.
There is no absolute. Just probability. Also for the one with the knife (who can never even be sure of being the only one armed).

Of course fighting is the last option - always, not just when facing a knife, but especially when meeting an armed attacker.

Regarding the "done for" bit, I have observed that most posts stressing the danger of the knife (which is certainly correct to do), give little or no indication of what to do in such a situation, except run away, if possible.
That's what I meant. The overall message on this thread seems to be that if facing a knife, you're done for.
I am glad that I was mistaken. Now, I hope for some tips from the guys who are fully aware of the danger of a knife. What to do when facing it, if not being able to run away?

Again, pardon me for expressing myself so poorly, probably in this post as well. If you do me the generous honor of crediting me with some level of intelligence, you may find it possible to figure out what I might be trying to say.

Kevin Leavitt
05-24-2005, 04:02 PM
One thing I have been playing with is what I call "stop, drop, and roll". Just like the fire drill. Not proposing this a solution, just something to think about.

The assumption is that the worse case (and most probable) is that the attacker launches quickly, within range, and suprises you.

There is no time to prepare, no time to react. His attack goes off balanced and before you could possibly irimi. What do you do?

First thing is a natural reaction, the startle reflex. You throw your hands up in attempt to block or minimize damage. Think shomenuchi, but you are slightly off balance. Lets say you were somewhat sucessful in this block, he is now on his next stab/slash, where do you go?

You don't want to regain posture and balance cause you have no time to do so would cause you to get struck again, so you "drop" to regain balance. That removes you from that attack. You are now down low and he has to break his posture in order to go to the third attack. You've created space and re-centered yourself.

The next move is to roll back into posture, or to "come up in base" which will put you back in Kamae. You could also choose to remain on the ground and force him to break posture on his next attack then foot sweep him etc....but this is more a BJJ thing and most aikidoka are not skilled in this area, but it is valid and I personally feel more comfortable now there than coming back up right away.

Basically you could sweep or do a leg take down while down, take him down, then come back up in kamae, ready to deal with multiple attackers.

Just something to think about and play with.

Other than that, if you are dealing with a situation in which you have a good kamae, distance and a foretold attack, I have always been taught to concentrate on moving feet, irimi to minimize your body exposure, enter behind, kotegaeshi, or iriminage. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it do be realistic from the attacker standpoint in the real world when a bunch of crap is being thrown at you.

Ketsan
05-24-2005, 05:28 PM
Nobody on this thread has been saying that if you face a knife you're done for. Several people who do know what they are talking about have been saying respect the knife. Appreciate that it does change things.

Several people have said that you can deal with a knife as if it were an empty hand and that it wouldn't make any difference but psychological.

This is rubbish. The empty hand can't cut with a touch as light as a caress. The empty hand can't stab and leave a deep wound.

Anybody who is skilled with a knife can not only tell you why it would make a difference but show you too. To use empty hand technique against a knife is a last resort. (I believe that Mike has already made this point.)

It's all reminiscient of times that I've heard Aikidoka confidently say that they could deal with a skilled swordsman by taking their blade away etc. and not understand why anybody with a modicum of skill in that area listening starts to wet themselves laughing.

FMA practitioners practice a knife based art.

FMA practitioners tend towards the opinion that a knife changes things in an encounter in a very real sense.

Perhaps they know something that you don't.

Read very carefully. At no point has anyone said that when you see a knife, all is lost.

Respect the knife. If you don't it could be the last thing you don't do.

You say that Aikido can deal with "...sword, knife and stuff in between..."

In that case, when the art that was the base for Aikido was developed, why did people continue to make use of weapons if the only difference to any encounter was "psychological?"

Go to a FMA seminar. See what can be done with a knife.

See if you still think that a knife is just a psychological advantage.

Go to a Kendo dojo.

State confidently that your Aikido could deal with a sword and that you could have a shinai off them before being hit.

Try not to feel too silly as they start laughing at you.

Cheers,

Matt.

Right. *breathes* First you need to be briefed on my opinion of Aikido.
Aikido = pants, utter pants. Appart from two things it teaches.
1) Get out of the way.
2) Zanshin.
Which is why I do it.

Kendo.
For a start a shinai is far lighter and far faster than a sword and are used in a different way. I know this because my mate does Kendo and because I have a shinai, occasionally I go to his class when I feel like having some fun. So if you've been trying to defend against a shinai you now know why you can't. Shinai are used with the wrist, to get the speed, bokken and sword are arm and body because of the weight difference. Really they're fundermentally different weapons used in fundermentally different ways.
Swap it for an Iwama ryu bokken and tachidori becomes possible, because the weight difference means they have to use it like a sword and not like a shinai. This I know because I have both done it and seen it done.

I'm shocked at you. I really am. I would have thought that the fundermental differences between a bokken and a shinai were fairly well known in Aiki circles.

Right, psychology and weapons. This is going to take a while. Right, ok. Martial arts, fundermentally, are more about the mind than they are about the body or any weapon. Martial arts are basically physical methods designed to lead the student to attaining a martial mind, thing is a martial mind is very much like an enlightened mind, hence where all your spiritual stuff comes from.

Weapons exist for 3 reasons:

Firstly the best way of taking someones mental balance is to wave a large bit of sharp metal in their face, guns are good but knifes, swords anything which resembles a tooth is better, it's an evolutionary thing. Once their mental balance is gone defeating them is much easier.

The second reason is that once the mental balance is broken, although it's easier to defeat them, it's still quite possible to be defeated so you need to take advantage of their mental state and kill them quickly, best way of killing someone is with a weapon.

The third reason is kinda like the first. If you have a weapon you feel more confident than if you don't. It's harder for them to freak you out and also it has a deterrent effect.

This is why the Samurai were encouraged to embrace death and welcome it. It's the only real way to psychologically harden someone to the point where they don't care what you've got and are soley focused on killing their opponent and it was taken as a matter of course in feudal Japan that a really nutty Samurai who was crazy to get himself killed in combat could often bring down a Samurai of much greater skill, who was better armed and walk away. Hagakure is repleat with such stories.

So yes as I've stated a knife is deadly but the thing that makes it deadly is the psychological impact it has on the opponent which enables it's user to take their opponents mental balance and thus effect a physical victory, at which point a knife will kill you pretty damn quick.

If you're facing a loony or someone on drugs or even a confident martial artist it could be a whole different ball game.
Take the Israeli experience. Their manual basically tells their troops not to attempt to draw a weapon if they're being confronted by someone less than 30ft away because they'll be dead before they draw it. Instead it says to use their unarmed skills.

Close the situation down to something more usual. You're in a bar minding your own business, you get into an argument. At what point do you pull the knife? Are you sure you'll be given the chance or have the time? Or more likely will you end up on the floor as most fights end up, rolling about with a knife on the loose making a dangerous situation even more dangerous. I mean the simple fact that reaching for something means dropping your guard makes the whole idea dangerous.

Growing up where I did (a fairly rough pub) taught me a lot, for example that if someone's paying attention to your body movements they see everything and a punch 9/10 is faster than a knife draw because there's movement to make in the same time and you only need to prevent the draw. He's already fighting with one hand tied behind his back, you're weapons are out, his are still to be drawn.

Anyway, it's always down to individuals (martial arts should change your thinking), tactics and stratagy, which ultimately is psychology.

Matt Molloy
05-24-2005, 06:18 PM
*Deleted*

Can't be bothered arguing with the clueless.

Cheers,

Matt.

Ketsan
05-24-2005, 06:57 PM
*Deleted*

Can't be bothered arguing with the clueless.

Cheers,

Matt.

Domo arigato gozaimashita.

L. Camejo
05-24-2005, 09:58 PM
Lots of generalisations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC:ai::ki:

xuzen
05-24-2005, 11:17 PM
Lots of generalizations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC:ai::ki:

Hmmm... I know! I know! But the name just escape me...

Could it be...

A) Larry
B) Larry Camejo
C) Larry C the Caribbean SHODO-THUG (TM)?

OK, I give up. People with knife confront me... I make sure I have a bigger knife than his, or some other weapon that is longer (a pole, an umbrella, a walking cane, etc) to keep his distance. Knife not touching skin = not effective knife. Going empty hand against knife, too risky :dead: , my medical insurance won't cover me.

Boon.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 02:41 AM
Lots of generalisations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC:ai::ki:

Only outside the dojo.

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 03:32 AM
Lots of generalisations here on knife fighting I see.

Good for theory, not so good for practice.

Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?

Just wondering.
LC:ai::ki:

Nah. I crosstrain in Escrima for knife.

Some of the techniques cross over anyway so you get the usual moments of, "Aha! So that is how that can work!" not to mention the odd "So that's why that's not advisable vs someone who really knows what they're doing with this thing."

I believe that Peter "uber-shodothug" Rehse has pointed out that fencing experience can help in Shodokan Tanto randori.

Tanto randori looks great fun but I only have so many days in the week.

Cheers,

Matt.

Randathamane
05-25-2005, 04:43 AM
Only outside the dojo.


This is true- it is all inside dojo wearing gi. No context- that is why fencing is still permitted to be taught outside, as to give the dueler the potential to experience outside of the piste.

Anyhow, moving back to this whole thing of techniques in street fights, which we all appear to have digressed onto knives.
the problem with street fights is that they occur suddenly and against two evenly matched opponents they can drag on. so in my mind, any form of throw that would put uke down and keep him down is good. Shihonage-fair enough (just a bit tricky) not so much shiho-osae as you don't have time to stand their pinning him to the floor. Iriminage- works a treat (know from experience) as long as they are committed.
Tenchinage--- :D :D :D (giggles with insane laughter)
Kotegaeshi, my personal favorite, but you have to be careful with emote. so many possibilities- however don't hand around for the police. All they will see is a person on the floor who will start howling in pain and the police will instantly arrest you and charge you with assault. Gotta love English law- when the perpetrator can legally act against the victim...

:ai: :ki: :do:

Nick Simpson
05-25-2005, 05:47 AM
"Just a question. How many Aikido folks here practice Tantodori in Aikido where the attacker is allowed to attack with a knife in any way he wants and fully resist your technique with muscle power, positioning etc. and attempt to cut, strike, throw, pin or whatever else he can to you in order to protect himself and not let you get off a technique against his initial knife strike?"

Done this a few times, also practised with both of us armed with tanto and attempting to 'kill' each other. Great fun. I got 'cut' a lot trying to disarm uke in the first scenario, used lots of atemi, kicks, slaps, dirty tricks and I still would have probably bled to death in the end. Second scenario was very long and protracted and we had a stalemate really, we both 'killed' each other.

The way we generally use a knife in this way is by concealing it up the forearm and slashing with it ala special forces style. Its a very nasty attack to deal with. Training like this gave me my respect for bladed weapons...

Also, just a little thing Alex, everything I have read/seen/been taught about cutting with a sword states that the wrists cut, not the arms or shoulders as that encourages strength rather than technique. I use a shinken this way and it works fine, very quick and accurate cuts.

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 05:59 AM
Also, just a little thing Alex, everything I have read/seen/been taught about cutting with a sword states that the wrists cut, not the arms or shoulders as that encourages strength rather than technique. I use a shinken this way and it works fine, very quick and accurate cuts.

Shhh.

You'll disturb his fantasies about taking out that Yakuza one day.

;)

Cheers,

Matt.

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 06:01 AM
Domo arigato gozaimashita.

Thank you? For calling you clueless?

Strange person. :confused: :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Matt.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 06:59 AM
Also, just a little thing Alex, everything I have read/seen/been taught about cutting with a sword states that the wrists cut, not the arms or shoulders as that encourages strength rather than technique. I use a shinken this way and it works fine, very quick and accurate cuts.
Yeah ok, fine, that's true, point taken.
What I'm getting at is that you wouldn't use a sword as you would a shinai.
A kendoka can strike and recover a shinai so fast that you'd probably still be entering in as he was recovering but if you give him a bokken he slows down enough to be able to take the sword.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 07:03 AM
Thank you? For calling you clueless?

Strange person. :confused: :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Matt.

Not really, it's good training. Mind you I am known for my off the wall thinking.

Randathamane
05-25-2005, 07:05 AM
A kendoka can strike and recover a shinai so fast that you'd probably still be entering in as he was recovering but if you give him a bokken he slows down enough to be able to take the sword.

Think sensei Mike smith said somthing along those lines when i first asked him, why not use the shinai to reduce the risk of getting clonked.

reason being is to do with weight and the ability to make the cut. with a shinai, you only need the wrist- does not fit the whole body art thing.... Cut with the whole body, not glance using the wrist.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Tim Gerrard
05-25-2005, 07:08 AM
however don't hand around for the police. All they will see is a person on the floor who will start howling in pain and the police will instantly arrest you and charge you with assault. Gotta love English law- when the perpetrator can legally act against the victim...



Don't write off the law that quickly, if you believe your life to be in danger then you are free to do just about anything to preserve life. Just don't go overboard! A police officer finding you jumping up and down on a bloody corpse may think you're taking the mick somewhat, just use enough to end the situation. But it looks better to have acted and be able to explain your actions, than to find a screaming guy on the floor (who WILL tell them anything) and you legging it round the corner, you'd be up on suspicion of GBH in no-time...


Aikido = pants, utter pants. Appart from two things it teaches.


You actually belive this? If you trained for a little longer then maybe you would actually see the practical applications of aikido technique. Aikido works, I'm not saying don't cross stuff over, but aikido on its own can still hold its own among other martial arts.

If you have that little faith in it then maybe you need a rethink about your choice.

Yours
T
:D

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 07:35 AM
if you give him a bokken he slows down enough to be able to take the sword.

Dream on boy. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 07:39 AM
Think sensei Mike smith said somthing along those lines when i first asked him, why not use the shinai to reduce the risk of getting clonked.

reason being is to do with weight and the ability to make the cut. with a shinai, you only need the wrist- does not fit the whole body art thing.... Cut with the whole body, not glance using the wrist.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Being wacked by Sensei convinced me. :D I mean you see body movement with a bokken, there's warning but the shinai doesn't move, you just get this pain where it's hit.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 08:02 AM
Dream on boy. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

If you've tried and it and it didn't work, how injured were you after being hit by the bokken? I can assure you that if you've ever been hit full power with a Iwama ryu bokken you do not walk away uninjured.
If you've not tried it go and try it.

deepsoup
05-25-2005, 08:24 AM
Don't write off the law that quickly, if you believe your life to be in danger then you are free to do just about anything to preserve life. Just don't go overboard!
Sound advice, imo. The law is not, in this case, an ass. (Unfortunately, sometimes a policeman is, but thats another story.)

Only outside the dojo.
Lol. You seem to think you're batman, but I'm afraid you'll not be taken too seriously here as long as you're wearing your underpants over the top of your hakama. :)

Sean
x

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 08:28 AM
If you've tried and it and it didn't work, how injured were you after being hit by the bokken? I can assure you that if you've ever been hit full power with a Iwama ryu bokken you do not walk away uninjured.
If you've not tried it go and try it.

I was referring to Kendoka slowing down so much that someone like yourself would be able to take a bokken off them.

As a Kendoka and Aikidoka, I'm more than aware that you're talking rubbish on this.

The more you post, the more ignorant you seem.

I pray that your sensei never reads half of this stuff. They would probably be very embarrassed for you.

Not to mention that they probably wouldn't be too impressed with you calling the art that they train you in "pants"

You have a lot to learn, as you're probably very young, you have a lot of time.

Good luck.

Cheers,

Matt.

jester
05-25-2005, 09:34 AM
Nobody on this thread has been saying that if you face a knife you're done for. Several people who do know what they are talking about have been saying respect the knife. Appreciate that it does change things.
Matt.

When I was in 9th grade I got into a fight in my neighborhood. The guy pulled out a knife, and I ended up getting hit on the top of the head with the butt of the knife.

I didn't get cut with the blade, and I didn't know martial arts at the time. The guy wasn't a knife fighter obviously.

The cut bled a lot, and when I got home I looked like I got hit by a truck because of all the blood, but when I washed off all the blood, there was only a small cut.

Anyway, I agree that someone with a knife is very dangerous, but sometimes you will get lucky.

Looking back on it, I should have run away!


On a side note, at our school, we practice release techniques while we are holding the knife and Uke attacks us. The results would be devastating if the knife was real. You can do techniques while holding a knife also. It's an interesting thing to explore.

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 09:54 AM
On a side note, at our school, we practice release techniques while we are holding the knife and Uke attacks us. The results would be devastating if the knife was real. You can do techniques while holding a knife also. It's an interesting thing to explore.

Thanks for sharing the experience.

Absolutely you can use Aikido in conjunction with a knife. One opinion is that the techniques we use in Aikido were developed to allow the bushi to deal with an attacker for just long enough to reach a back up weapon and dispatch said attacker.

Okamoto Sensei did some interesting stuff in this direction on one of her last seminars over here. Worth seeing if you ever get the chance.

Cheers,

Matt.

Stefan Stenudd
05-25-2005, 10:29 AM
everything I have read/seen/been taught about cutting with a sword states that the wrists cut, not the arms or shoulders as that encourages strength rather than technique. I use a shinken this way and it works fine, very quick and accurate cuts.
Using wrist movements to cut with a shinken or iaito is unorthodox, I would say. Traditionally, the cutting with the sword should be done with wrists fixed and a big arm movement (well, the center working, and the shoulders relaxed, of course). That is to be able to cut through, among other things.

In my experience the shinken/iaito cut is not significantly slower than the shinai strike (from a jodan kamae position) - but the shinai is faster when doing multiple strikes. There are ways around that, when using the shinken/iaito, but that would be deviating too much from this thread.

CNYMike
05-25-2005, 11:50 AM
.... So yes as I've stated a knife is deadly but the thing that makes it deadly is the psychological impact it has on the opponent which enables it's user to take their opponents mental balance and thus effect a physical victory, at which point a knife will kill you pretty damn quick.

Wrong. What makes a knife deadly is its cutting edge. The "psychological impact" --- freezing up at the sight of the knife --- yes, that is what will ensure that you get killed. But that is why the knife is physically capable of killing you.

It's not rocket science.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 11:50 AM
I was referring to Kendoka slowing down so much that someone like yourself would be able to take a bokken off them.

As a Kendoka and Aikidoka, I'm more than aware that you're talking rubbish on this.

The more you post, the more ignorant you seem.

I pray that your sensei never reads half of this stuff. They would probably be very embarrassed for you.

Not to mention that they probably wouldn't be too impressed with you calling the art that they train you in "pants"

You have a lot to learn, as you're probably very young, you have a lot of time.

Good luck.

Cheers,

Matt.

Ah so it's me personally that can't do it? Well it's been done. Besides you're making (bold) assumptions over who I am and how capable I am and how much of my life I've been training in one thing or another. Not to mention how much real world experience I might have.

Sensei is well aware of my opinions actually, some of them he shares and some of them he's taught me. If I say something it's because I've seen it or done it or been told by someone older and wiser than me.

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 12:27 PM
Wrong. What makes a knife deadly is its cutting edge.

Absolutely.

It's why we don't attack people with bananas. ;)

Cheers,

Matt.

Matt Molloy
05-25-2005, 12:33 PM
Ah so it's me personally that can't do it? Well it's been done. Besides you're making (bold) assumptions over who I am and how capable I am and how much of my life I've been training in one thing or another. Not to mention how much real world experience I might have.

The lack of sense in your posts is more informative about your "training" and "real world experience" than you might think.

Put another way, if you're very young, then you're just a bit naive and you've quite a bit to learn, along with anyone else who's very young.

Believe me when I say that if you actually are older, it really doesn't speak well of you. It would suggest that you'd not been learning some life lessons.

Sensei is well aware of my opinions actually, some of them he shares and some of them he's taught me. If I say something it's because I've seen it or done it or been told by someone older and wiser than me.

Would your "opinion" that Aikido is "pants" be one that he shares or one that he taught you?

I'm sure that he's a good sensei but you really do need to listen to him now and again.

Good luck kid.

Matt.

deepsoup
05-25-2005, 12:38 PM
Besides you're making (bold) assumptions over who I am and how capable I am and how much of my life I've been training in one thing or another. Not to mention how much real world experience I might have.

There are people posting here who have a vast amount of real world experience of all sorts of things. Their posts are generally somewhat different to yours.

If you don't want people to assume those things about you, then out with it: Who are you? What are you capable of? What experience do you have? etc..

Sean
x

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 01:02 PM
Lol. You seem to think you're batman, but I'm afraid you'll not be taken too seriously here as long as you're wearing your underpants over the top of your hakama. :)

Sean
x

Oh I'm not batman. I just train a lot with my mates outside the dojo, especially during the summer, you get more freedom and time to experiement that way, plus since most of my mates have martial arts back grounds it's interesting to see all the different view points. Painful too. :D To be honest I'm not that great at any one martial art, I just have a broad range of knowlege that's usually enough to get me out of trouble.
If I'm taken seriously then I'm taken seriously, if not so what. The people around me take me seriously.
If I come across as cocky's because I know I've been taught by some really good people and so far I've been able to deal quite well with any situation that I've found myself in.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 02:05 PM
There are people posting here who have a vast amount of real world experience of all sorts of things. Their posts are generally somewhat different to yours.

If you don't want people to assume those things about you, then out with it: Who are you? What are you capable of? What experience do you have? etc..

Sean
x
I'm Alex, I'm 22. My father started teaching me martial arts, mainly Ju-jitsu and a bit of boxing when I was small, I have a half brother who's way older than me, way wiser than me and his training is mostly in Aikido, although he's done other stuff, Thai boxing couple of other things, not too sure. He's never been around much but I used to train with him when he was living with us, plus most of my family have been in the army so they taught me stuff too. All this got put to good use at school because for the first 17 years of my life I was pretty much always picked on everywhere I went, literally first to last day of school, in the scouts, cadets, everywhere. I'm quiet, shy and far too easy going for my own good, so I'm a good target, that said I also have a bit of a defiant streak which meant that being in fights inside and outside school was never anything unusual for me. There was a point where I got so angry I was going to punch someone even if he and his mates jumped me for it. Being small didn't help either so if someone wanted to show off how hard they were or impress their girlfriend, yours truely got jumped. Occasionally I dished out more than I took but not usually. 5 or 6 on one isn't good and no-one would take me on one on one.
Anyway when I was 14 or so I started formally learning Ju-jitsu which lasted for about 2 years or so until my Sensei left the country to work abroad at which point the dojo closed and I went and studied TKD for about 6 months but left that when I found a place that was teaching TKD, Ju-jitsu and Aikido and I stayed there for nearly 3 years until they got facinated by kickboxing at which point I decided I'd rather not be there because they were basically training me to jump into a ring and beat people up for no reason. After that I went on to do Lau Gar style Kung fu and Kickboxing, my Sifu taught both, 3 hour lessons, 1st hour and a half would be kickboxing, second would be Kung Fu, that lasted about 6 months until the club folded and my Sifu suggested I go and see my present Sensei and that was about two years ago. Reccently I've also started back at Ju-jitsu. Also looking for somewhere that teaches Krav Maga.
During that time I've been in more than enough trouble. People have tried to mug me 4 times, been in 3 fights involving knives about 6 involving broken bottles or glasses, one with an iron bar, various other scuffels the last serious one being in 2002 when I changed where I hang out to somewhere with less trouble. Being a goth doesn't help either. Certain sections of the community feel they have a god given right to start on you. I've also worked in bars where basically there were no bouncers so I was security and have had to deal with drunk aggressive people that basically wanted a fight.
As I said earlier pretty much everyone I know does some form of martial art, most of them are Dan grade and above and we're always training with each other since were all students and have far too much time on our hands.

Stefan Stenudd
05-25-2005, 05:27 PM
I thank Alex for giving his Martial arts background and more, although nobody had the right to demand it of him.

Alex, all through this thread I have been impressed by your decent writing, even when treated quite disrespectfully by others, and I have found your views interesting and quite reasonable.

I am significantly older than you, and I have done aikido significantly longer than you have - actually longer than you have lived. Still, I read your writing on this thread with interest and respect.
If your sensei would care to ask me about it, I would most definitely say that you do not embarrass him at all - quite the contrary. I would be most delighted to have a student like you.

Some may think that the above disqualifies me as an aikido teacher, altogether. I can live with that :)

CNYMike
05-25-2005, 05:37 PM
I'm Alex, I'm 22. My father started teaching me martial arts, mainly Ju-jitsu and a bit of boxing when I was small, I have a half brother who's way older than me, way wiser than me and his training is mostly in Aikido, although he's done other stuff, Thai boxing couple of other things, not too sure. He's never been around much but I used to train with him when he was living with us, plus most of my family have been in the army so they taught me stuff too. All this got put to good use at school because for the first 17 years of my life I was pretty much always picked on everywhere I went, literally first to last day of school, in the scouts, cadets, everywhere. I'm quiet, shy and far too easy going for my own good, so I'm a good target, that said I also have a bit of a defiant streak which meant that being in fights inside and outside school was never anything unusual for me. There was a point where I got so angry I was going to punch someone even if he and his mates jumped me for it. Being small didn't help either so if someone wanted to show off how hard they were or impress their girlfriend, yours truely got jumped. Occasionally I dished out more than I took but not usually. 5 or 6 on one isn't good and no-one would take me on one on one.
Anyway when I was 14 or so I started formally learning Ju-jitsu which lasted for about 2 years or so until my Sensei left the country to work abroad at which point the dojo closed and I went and studied TKD for about 6 months but left that when I found a place that was teaching TKD, Ju-jitsu and Aikido and I stayed there for nearly 3 years until they got facinated by kickboxing at which point I decided I'd rather not be there because they were basically training me to jump into a ring and beat people up for no reason. After that I went on to do Lau Gar style Kung fu and Kickboxing, my Sifu taught both, 3 hour lessons, 1st hour and a half would be kickboxing, second would be Kung Fu, that lasted about 6 months until the club folded and my Sifu suggested I go and see my present Sensei and that was about two years ago. Reccently I've also started back at Ju-jitsu. Also looking for somewhere that teaches Krav Maga.
During that time I've been in more than enough trouble. People have tried to mug me 4 times, been in 3 fights involving knives about 6 involving broken bottles or glasses, one with an iron bar, various other scuffels the last serious one being in 2002 when I changed where I hang out to somewhere with less trouble. Being a goth doesn't help either. Certain sections of the community feel they have a god given right to start on you. I've also worked in bars where basically there were no bouncers so I was security and have had to deal with drunk aggressive people that basically wanted a fight.
As I said earlier pretty much everyone I know does some form of martial art, most of them are Dan grade and above and we're always training with each other since were all students and have far too much time on our hands.

Hi. I'm Michael, I'm 40, and I have been doing martial arts for half of my life.

I was the skinny kid who got picked on a lot, although there were maybe less than a dozen altercations growing up. There was one time in Junior High when, as I was cutting through the gym between classes, some kid I didn't know ataccked me, punching me and kicking me as I tried to get a across the gym, and he didn't say who he was or why he was doing it. I never cut through that gym ever again. Now that I think about it, in first or second grade, I was attacked by a kid I'd thought was my friend; I do not know why he did it. He just beat me up in front of the school and ran off, again, no explanation. You could say that friendship ended. No muggings, knife fights, or people coming at me with broken bottles, though, which I suppose is good, although nowadays I guess one of those aforementioned kids would have brought a gun and I'd be dead.

When I was in college, my roommate found out there was a karate class there. I'd known about it, but I had hesitated to take it. Steve, however, badgered me about it every day for a week. I signed up just to shut him up. Didn't work -- he and a girl who'd done karate for about three months told me about all the ways you can die doing karate. Didn't inspire confidence. My first shito-ryu karate class was the following Tuseday, the first week of February, 1985. The Sensei, Dean Gordon, advised us to practice between classes, so I took those words to heart and did that. I am still plugging away after twenty years. Steve started in the same class I did and dropped out after three weeks. Her name was Pam. ;)

The following year, 1986, I tried my hand at fencing while I continued karate. However, I was struggling to pull up my grades and missed a lot of fencing classes. I don't think my fencing coach liked me very much. However, I came out of it with a fencing team jacket I later gave to an English friend of mine in 1992; I think she still has it. But I digress.

In the fall of 1986, having flunked out of Utica College, I took classes at Tompkins Cortland Community College, and they had an Aikido class there. I had read about Aikido and O Sensei's feats and wanted to learn to do that! :o So I started Seidokan Aikido under Sensei Jim Wallace. I was also continuing in the same style of karate, shito-ryu, under Sensei Ed Ferraro at Cornell University. For about two years I did both karate and Aikido, but for a variety of reasons I will not go into here, I dropped out of Aikido. I maintaned an interest in it, though, and occassionally bought books on it.

In the Spring of 1991, I began classes at the University of Maine near Bangor, Maine, about 600 miles from where I live ( http://www.umaine.edu ). I'd scoped out the univeristy and local karate teachers when my mother and I had taken out vacations in Maine during previous years. My first choice was a Shotokan teacher, but by the time I came out to Maine, he had relocated to Maryland. So I went with my second choice, Sensei Bruce Barker, who taught at UMaine. I'd been a strict traditionalist at that time, and Bruce's mix of traditional Shotokan, modern TKD, and Chinese forms wasn't to my liking. But I joined the class and found I liked it; it opened my eyes to a certain extent. I studied with Sensei Bruce until I graduated from UMaine in 1994, but I still visit and train with him when I go out there on vacation. Back home in Cortland, I resumed doing Shito-Ryu karate at Cornell.

In 1997, I got in a flame war in rec.martial-arts over the value of kata training. Anyone who'd been surfing that group at that time will probably remember it, so I don't have to go into details. Suffice it to say my behavior in that thread was not something I am proud of. However, one of the people I was arguing with accused me of being closed-minded, and (in his mind) that was why I'd blown my stack a couple of days before, not because of anything he'd said! I couldn't beleive it! Would a closed-minded person have ventured beyond one art or style? I didn't think so.

Well, I'd thought about FMA for a while, and there was a school in my area that I knew taught it. So a couple of days after being called closed-minded, I was driving by, and thought, I'll show that (*&&^% who has a closed mind! So that day I drove into East West Martial Arts and talked to Guro Kevin Seaman about his Kali program. I sat in on the advanced class that Friday and tried the beginner's class the following Monday, where I met Guro Andy Astle.

I stayed with it that summer, but in the Fall, I had a problem: I wanted to do both Cornell karate classes per week, on Monday and Wednesday, because I felt I owed it to Sensei to show up for everything; but I didn't want to give up going to East West. Lo and Behold, that Fall, Guro Andy began teaching a Wing Chun class on Tuesdays. So I did that. And when I trained on my own, I did as Guro Kevin had advised me and played with the stick. The following summer, in 1998, I resumed taking Kali, and have stayed with it ever since. I took the level 1 (newbie) test in 1999. That same year, IIRC, Guro Andy folded up his Wing Chun class. You want to know why, you'll have to ask him. :)

That same year, Guro Kevin's son had a boxing class on Saturdays, and I joined that. Kali's unarmed portion included Filipino Boxing which, to put it mildly, had an influence on Western Boxing. So I wanted to get a little more on boxing. We never sparred, but I got the basics and did focus mit work. I skipped one class because I was sick, and the following week, went to an Eric Paulson seminar. The next week, the boxing class was no more. To this day, I do not know why.

In 2000, my mother had had a lot of health problems, so I wanted to get her exercises. Sensei Mike Eschenbrenner, who had taken over the Cornell class after Sensei Ed had retired, suggested Tai Chi. Lo and Behold, East West inaugurated a Tai Chi class on Friday nights! My mother and I started in that in November. And we continued going faithfully until Devember of 2002. The following Spring, her health deteriorated and she passed away on March 2, 2003. I still go to Tai Chi.

In July of 2003, Guro Kevin closed his academy. Sifu Rex, my Tai Chi teacher, had his own school in Ithaca. I'd visited the web site and knew there was an Aikido class there, but I wanted to continue Tai Chi. It just so happened Guro Andy was going to offer a class there, so I joined it to continue Kali. The first 45 minutes of that class is Kali; the second is Pentjak Silat Serak. Pembantu Andy is not a Serak instructor but he has permission to teach it from his instructor, Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. (I have to add that by Andy's request.) So that is how I got into Serak.

Serak has lots and LOTS of throws, so it helps to have crash mats, and at that school, the mats are owned by the Aikido class, which I'd been thinking about joining for months. Well, a few months after we arrived, a little sign appeared on the mat stack: "Please do not use without permission from the Aikido head instructor." So we stopped using the mats ..... but we still did throws! So I would intermittentantly bug Andy about asking for permission, but he kept forgetting it. (Although he had a lot on his mind since he'd had to find a new job when the factory he'd worked at closed.)

Finally, in March of 2004, while I was on vacation in Ottawa, I decided I would join the Aikido class after I got home. I'd meant to check it out during the summer, but I moved up my plans. On Friday nights, Aikido and Kali are back-to-back. So I thought the sight of me leaving the Aikido class as Andy arrived to teach his class would give him the subliminal nudge required to ask about the mats. I called him form the hotel (I'd ask him to check up on my house) and he mentioned that he'd got permission from Sensei to use the mats -- it had been a misunderstanding, and the sign had not been aimed at us (it was aimed at whomever was suffing them up, and to this day, I don't think anyone knows who did it).

"Ok," I said, "then I don't have to start Aikido until---"

"You're going to take Aikido?" he said; I could hear his grin from ear to ear. "That's great."

"No, I'm nuts -- I'll be wiped out at the end of the week."

"No, no, do it,.do it! You'll be a better martial artist."

So the next week I started in Aikido. I'm still plugging away at that.

So currently I am doing karate, Kali, Serak, Tai Chi, and Aikido. I have also done seminars with Sifu Dan Inosanto, Sifu Francis Fong, and Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. Guro Andy has been emphasizing how deadly the knife is and the reality of knife attacks, and that is what I have been speaking from in my posts. He has 15 years experience in Kali and Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD and has been studying Serak for 3 to 5 years, so I think he might know what he's talking about.

We done marking territory now?

Stefan Stenudd
05-25-2005, 06:10 PM
We done marking territory now?
Yes, please. Note that Alex gave his MA background, because it was demanded of him. An unfair demand, I would say.

I hope that Jun corrects me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that we should avoid "pulling ranks" and such, in this forum.

L. Camejo
05-25-2005, 09:51 PM
Yes, please. Note that Alex gave his MA background, because it was demanded of him. An unfair demand, I would say.

I hope that Jun corrects me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that we should avoid "pulling ranks" and such, in this forum.

I don't see it as an unfair request or "pulling rank" so much. Since there are folks who may actually listen to some of the advice given on web fora in how they approach aspects of training, new ideas etc. it is good to get a feel for where the information is coming from.

One may feel a bit more comfortable taking advice and seriously evaluating information given in the opinions of folks who may have some degree of authority or experience in what they are speaking about. One does not ask a tailor how to bake a cake for example.:)

It is good that those involved have the confidence in their abilities and their ideas to put forward some of their history, since it helps to frame and put into context what the person is talking about and where they are coming from.

Also there are old timers and newbies on Aikiweb all the time. Some folks' histories and abilities are known by the general population here and others are not as well known as yet. Often folks start off with an introduction that gives their training history and experience before posting on active threads.

Imagine someone who looks to these threads for some solid ideas on real life defence based on the experiences of others that may have had such experiences, especially in the case of an art like Aikido where many train in an environment very far removed from reality. The experiences and histories of those who have been on the pointy edge of things have as much relevance as the words they speak about the experiences imho. If one gets lucky in a confrontation for example and a toothpick causes him to escape unhurt, one should realise that it was luck that caused a favourable outcome and not go around preaching that the toothpick defence is the ultimate (not that anyone here is doing that).

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

CNYMike
05-26-2005, 01:05 AM
Absolutely.

It's why we don't attack people with bananas. ;)

Cheers,

Matt.

Hey, you can SHOOT someone who comes at you with a banana! Self defense that is. Now, a pointed stick on the other hand .... ;) :) Yeah, it took me the better part of a day to remember that Monty Python sketch. :o

Ketsan
05-26-2005, 03:07 AM
Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Sound like good thoughts to me.

Aikilove
05-26-2005, 03:52 AM
I thank Alex for giving his Martial arts background and more, although nobody had the right to demand it of him.

Alex, all through this thread I have been impressed by your decent writing, even when treated quite disrespectfully by others, and I have found your views interesting and quite reasonable.

I am significantly older than you, and I have done aikido significantly longer than you have - actually longer than you have lived. Still, I read your writing on this thread with interest and respect.
If your sensei would care to ask me about it, I would most definitely say that you do not embarrass him at all - quite the contrary. I would be most delighted to have a student like you.

Some may think that the above disqualifies me as an aikido teacher, altogether. I can live with that :)

I agree Stefan.

Ps. I'm not going to be able to join you and Tamura sensei. Bröllop i faggorna! Jag har anmält mig, så om du vill får du gärna avanmäla mig till förmån för andra Ds.

Matt Molloy
05-26-2005, 04:19 AM
Alex, all through this thread I have been impressed by your decent writing, even when treated quite disrespectfully by others, and I have found your views interesting and quite reasonable.

So I suppose that "Aikido = Pants" qualifies as decent writing?

And "....guns are good but knifes, swords anything which resembles a tooth is better,...." would be a reasonable opinion?

I'm afraid that we would have to differ on this.

Myself, during a varied life, I've studied (in no particular order); Karate, Ju-Jitsu (basically a "dirty" version of Judo), Wing Chun (Samuel Kwok lineage) Muay Thai, Aiki-Jujutsu (Kaze Arashi Ryu version) and Escrima.

Since 2001, my main two martial arts have been Aikido and (more recently) Kendo although I still cross train occasionally.

I personally thought that Alex's history was one of the first decent posts from him on the thread, it's just unfortunate that up to that point we had a lot of rubbish.

As for "pulling rank" nobody is doing that but neither are we going to sit here and accept a load of rubbish (that could potentially be read by a more inexperienced person and, if put into practice, lead to quite a nasty situation), and just nod our heads because we're Aikidoka and we don't want any of that nasty conflict stuff.

Cheers,

Matt.

Aikilove
05-26-2005, 04:32 AM
Someone that has been training aikido for what is it a quarter of a century think someone (perhaps Alex) has something interesting to say about aikido.
Someone else who has trained aikido for a couple of years or less thinks that same person write a load of rubbish about same things, since they seem to have figured this thing called aikido so well within this time...

Hmm... I don't know, but I think all of you have good points about knife vs. aikido vs. knife, but some of you seem to respect other little bit less (and for the life of me the only reason seem to be simply because Alex, in this case, isn't one of the long timers in these foras!

Of course I could be wrong...

Matt Molloy
05-26-2005, 05:12 AM
Someone that has been training aikido for what is it a quarter of a century think someone (perhaps Alex) has something interesting to say about aikido.
Someone else who has trained aikido for a couple of years or less thinks that same person write a load of rubbish about same things, since they seem to have figured this thing called aikido so well within this time...

Hmm... I don't know, but I think all of you have good points about knife vs. aikido vs. knife, but some of you seem to respect other little bit less (and for the life of me the only reason seem to be simply because Alex, in this case, isn't one of the long timers in these foras!

Of course I could be wrong...

You're absolutely right.

You could be wrong. ;)

Stefan makes the point about avoiding pulling rank and one of the very next things you attempt to do is?......

See you quoted above.

If an interesting opinion is "Aikido = pants" and "....guns are good but knifes, swords anything which resembles a tooth is better,...." and this is respected by somebody training 25 years or more then I can only say that this diminishes my respect for the person who has done 25 years training.

I also note that your mate Stefan started "instructing" after one year's training.

So one year would be enough to instruct but not enough to have an opinion?

I never claimed to have "figured this thing called aikido so well within this time..." in fact I don't expect to have "figured it out" totally within my lifetime. Just like music, it's a lifetime study. I sincerely hope that I'm discovering new things well into my old age.

But I'm quite sure that if someone comes along and starts talking crap in the meantime, I'm not just going to sit there and say, "My. What an interesting and valid opinion. I think I really must respect this because we don't do conflict in Aikido."

If Alex was respected a little less it had nothing to do with his time on the boards or in Aikido but with the fact that he wasn't talking sense.

He seems to be making more now. I for one sincerely hope this continues.

You might look at the fact that the people giving him a hard time had more experience of the knife side of the equation and were concerned about the "advice" that he was giving out so freely.

Perhaps you would be happier if some anonymous reader took his advice to heart because nobody challenged it and went out and got seriously injured whilst thinking that knives only gave their wielder a psychological advantage.

There'd be less conflict on the forum though. :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Matt.

Randathamane
05-26-2005, 08:08 AM
just use enough to end the situation.

Now we get to the niggling argument of what is enough? In your eyes this is one thing, in the eyes of a law court it may be something else.

i just guess i will never understand law.... or politics for that matter.....

:ai: :ki: :do:

Randathamane
05-26-2005, 08:25 AM
So I suppose that "Aikido = Pants" qualifies as decent writing?

All are entitled to their opinions and as long as they are justified by a decent and fair argument, i see no trespass. In my opinion it is important to think this way- how else does the art evolve?
If all aikidoka constantly thinks "that will work all of the time" and ignore the possibility's for counter strike, how can the art expect to keep pace with others?

Some of the Dojos i know Especially Renshin-kan (not to much zanshin-kai) suffer from the problem that other martial arts take students away as they have more glamor and attention for example Kung Fu. Most people know kung fu is deadly and many are pulled away because they want to be hard and boast about it....

If aikido evolves in the right way- soon it may have such a reputation. But in order to evolve one must Think outside the Box. Or the dojo in this case....

:ai: :ki: :do:

deepsoup
05-26-2005, 08:31 AM
Yes, please. Note that Alex gave his MA background, because it was demanded of him. An unfair demand, I would say.

I hope that Jun corrects me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that we should avoid "pulling ranks" and such, in this forum.

I asked, and it wasn't unfair. When someone posts things like "in my experience..." it becomes reasonable to enquire what that experience is.

There is no rank here, but all people's experience is not the same, and on various topics some people talk with vastly more authority than others.

Thanks Alex, for putting your posts into context.
Now we get to the niggling argument of what is enough? In your eyes this is one thing, in the eyes of a law court it may be something else.

This is a bit of a digression, but it is extremely rare for anyone to be prosecuted in this country for overcooking their 'self defence'. In just about every case the person doing the 'self defence' went so far overboard that there really couldn't be any credible claim that it was still self defence at all.

Sean
x

Randathamane
05-26-2005, 08:38 AM
This is a bit of a digression, but it is extremely rare for anyone to be prosecuted in this country for overcooking their 'self defense'. In just about every case the person doing the 'self defense' went so far overboard that there really couldn't be any credible claim that it was still self defense at all.


True- true.
I would just like a clear line from a bobby on the beat of what i can do. For example- 1 on 1 as has happened before, i would just try and walk away or dump them on their arse.

what about 5 on one? or ten even, which lets face it is far more likely as the yobs always roam in packs....
Sensei tells me that break the arm of the first attacker to act as a deterrent. He seemed serious about it.
"isn't that an itty bit harsh sensei?"
"No way! sorry, but break it. Keep him down! Martial! Martial mind. I don't want him getting back up, and now his mates have got to get over him to get to me. End it! Bang!"

would this be acceptable i wonder in court?

:ai: :ki: :do:

Ron Tisdale
05-26-2005, 09:18 AM
would this be acceptable i wonder in court?

In the moment, Who Cares? You have 10 guys ganging up on you, break the first five I say. Then the next five will have something to consider...and you may get a chance to walk away, rather than going to hospital (or worse yet, the morgue).

Gangs always pissed me off. I remember all the way back to first grade, when the white guys didn't like the one black guy in the school, so they ganged up on him, and when he went to kicking to defend himself they taunted him for kicking. I said 'screw you', and went on kicking. You don't like being kicked...don't gang up on someone. You don't like being broken...same thing.

Ron (priorities, priorities...deal with the court later)

Tim Gerrard
05-26-2005, 09:21 AM
How about if you can justify your actions, and you didn't for example, start beating the guy to a pulp in a rage. If the guy had a knife and you broke his arm, and you could justify this, even if you only thought he had a knife then you would probably be alright. I'm not advocating murdering the poor sod, but use your common sense, reasonable force is what you consider nessecary to save your life. You would be arrested and interviewed, to make sure the loose ends ie. You and your attacker, are available , but as long as your actions were 'honourable' then you wouldn't be seen as the guilty party. After this it goes into the hands of soliciters and way over my head. I'm not an average bobby on the beat, but would Military Police suffice?

Stefan Stenudd
05-26-2005, 09:24 AM
would this be acceptable i wonder in court?
I can only tell you about the Swedish law on self defense, but I imagine that it is not that very different from other countries.

There is no law for every specific situation, of course, so it has to be settled by a court. The directive on self defense in Swedish law is that the violence used should not be "obviously indefendable" (I am not sure that I find the best English words for it, but you get the picture).
So, if someone pokes you in the chest, you can't respond with an elbow to his chin. On the other hand, if five persons attack you, I bet that a Swedish court would allow you any unarmed defense.
If someone attacks you with a knife (to stick to the thing most frequently discussed in this thread), you can also do pretty much what you like.

A Swedish court will not consider your Martial arts experience, since that is almost impossible to do to any certainty, and seldom relevant. They will try to consider how scared you were, at the attack - when scared you are entitled to some extra violence, so to speak, simply because it is hard to balance it.
The one who claims not to have been scared at all, but gives the court the impression of having been on top of the situation - he or she will also be expected to have used a balanced and appropriate level of violence.

Police in Sweden are bound by a much more restrictive law, stating that their violence must be "obviously defendable". They are never allowed any excessive force. I don't envy them...

Randathamane
05-26-2005, 10:26 AM
getting back to the point.......

I think that we can all agree that it is how it falls in a street fight- there is no set technique for a given situation and even if there was, it does not necessarily have to be followed.

Having been in a few scraps / knocks/ brawls or whatever you lot want to call it and taking a sit down to reflect the past 3ish years of aikido- i can see where it would go. Not full on techniques per say, some of the basic movements to get you out the way and exploit a more advantageous position,but if the opportunity arose for a technique, you could take it.

in my opinion, initiative is important, and as you do not know the attack that is going to be performed before it is actually performed, you must endeavor to steal it whenever possible, taking the battle to the enemy (atemi) or by forcing them to react although this is harder. I have always been told that those who have the initiative have the advantage as they control the pace, location and setup of battle and can possibly lure others into second intention attacks (some boast about 3rd or 4th intention but i don't think one can plan that far...). Initiative is not the end all however but it does give the combatant the edge.

In a nutshell- everything has its place, and a place and time for everything. The hard part is locating and identifying that time. it is how it falls as sensei smith is always telling me.


:ai: :ki: :do:

CNYMike
05-26-2005, 11:38 AM
Someone else who has trained aikido for a couple of years or less thinks that same person write a load of rubbish about same things, since they seem to have figured this thing called aikido so well within this time....

Don't know about that someone. But someone else who has done Aikido for a couple of years will admit he hasn't figured it out, but will speek based on related things he's learned in other arts, and based on that, will say that something is rubish.

Sanshouaikikai
05-26-2005, 04:24 PM
In the moment, Who Cares? You have 10 guys ganging up on you, break the first five I say. Then the next five will have something to consider...You don't like being kicked...don't gang up on someone. You don't like being broken...same thing.

Ron (priorities, priorities...deal with the court later)


Amazing!!! That's probably the greatest and most down to earth thing I've heard anyone say on this website!!!

Ron Tisdale
05-27-2005, 08:59 AM
Amazing!!! That's probably the greatest and most down to earth thing I've heard anyone say on this website!!!

:o :o :o

Uh, thanks, I think...

:) Best,

Ron (it always pisses me off when I remember those injustices from my youth)

PS may they always be the worst thing I have to deal with...

Ketsan
05-28-2005, 08:39 PM
I thank Alex for giving his Martial arts background and more, although nobody had the right to demand it of him.

Alex, all through this thread I have been impressed by your decent writing, even when treated quite disrespectfully by others, and I have found your views interesting and quite reasonable.

I am significantly older than you, and I have done aikido significantly longer than you have - actually longer than you have lived. Still, I read your writing on this thread with interest and respect.
If your sensei would care to ask me about it, I would most definitely say that you do not embarrass him at all - quite the contrary. I would be most delighted to have a student like you.

Some may think that the above disqualifies me as an aikido teacher, altogether. I can live with that :)

Cool thanks, much appreciated. :)

Ketsan
05-28-2005, 09:18 PM
And "....guns are good but knifes, swords anything which resembles a tooth is better,...." would be a reasonable opinion?

I'm afraid that we would have to differ on this.


Well it's a pretty well known hypothesis in pyschology. People can appreciate that a knife is dangerous because like a tooth of a preditor it's sharp, therefore all cultures have a fear of knives if threatened with them, in the same way that all cultures fear animals with big sharp teeth. Guns are a different matter. If you find a group of people that have never seen a gun, like say, a tribe in the Amazon, you can wave guns around in their face all day long and they wont mind because they have no concept of what a gun is or how it could be dangerous, there's nothing inherently threatening about a gun unless you have the right schemas in place.

Adam Alexander
05-29-2005, 05:06 PM
would Shomenuchi Eacheo irimi work in a street fight? Would the attacker attack shomenuchi? Or would he just punch or kick? Or would this happen to you :dead: ? seeing as im a yellow belt please excuse my stupid\ignorant questions ;)

Alright, I'm a "Johnny-come-lately," but, of the ten or so posts I read, I didn't see a similar response...Here's my two cents...

In "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" the authors categorize the types of attacks Aikido deals with. The three hand strikes we use are comparable (according to them--I agree) to any strike that can be delivered from the upper-body.

Further, used as a strike, shomen-uchi is effective...particularly while yelling "hi-yaa." :D

Finally, people will attack with shomen-uchi. In the back of Gozo Shioda's book "Dynamic Aikido" he show's a demonstration of it. (someone did respond similar to this with "depends on what they're attacking with.)

Kevin Leavitt
05-30-2005, 01:05 PM
Smart peope will not attack with Shomenuchi. Maybe a manifestation of it, but the techniques will come in an attack chain that is fast and overwhelming, not cooperative, or telegraphed.

I see shomenuchi more as a training tool to demonstrate principles.

It is not so much "what they attack with" but "what you respond with". Shomenuchi can teach you the correct ways to develop instincts that are appropriate given a direction and position of the attack. I'd worry not so much about the attack, but your response hopefully proactive and not reactive, but sometimes you don't have a choice.

DustinAcuff
05-30-2005, 05:50 PM
I'm no expert in Aikido attacks...but shomenuchi is a diagonal hand strike that comes from overhead right?

Adam Alexander
05-31-2005, 01:42 PM
"shomenuchi is a diagonal hand strike that comes from overhead right?"

Depends on your perspective. It's a front-strike.

K.L.,

I agree. However, my post was directed only to the original post.

Kevin Leavitt
05-31-2005, 02:41 PM
Got it...sorry for the misunderstanding!

Tubig
06-14-2005, 07:32 PM
In Australia If one gets their dan grade, we are registered with the government and are considered a weapon. Hence our aiki can be used against us in a court of law unfortunately. :confused:

A lot of my brethren in aiki are jusst staying in their brown belt because of that law. :mad:

Drew Scott
06-15-2005, 12:07 AM
In Australia If one gets their dan grade, we are registered with the government and are considered a weapon. Hence our aiki can be used against us in a court of law unfortunately. :confused:

A lot of my brethren in aiki are jusst staying in their brown belt because of that law. :mad:

I've heard that this procedure exists in the US, but I have been unsuccessful in finding any information about such registration procedures at the federal, state, or local level. I find the concept of legally defining an individual's potential to inflict harm (or responsibility to avoid doing so) based on their rank within a martial arts organization fascinating and daunting, and I'd love to know what your legal eagles managed to come up with. I would be very grateful if you would post either the text of, or a link to, the relevant laws.

Regards,
Drew

Jiraiya
06-28-2005, 08:02 PM
hmm...I've never been in a fight . But...if its a street fight, guess you have to be prepared for anything. I do have reservations-I feel that no one will really attack "perfectly" . Like no one will really do a nice shomen uchi or yokomen uchi like they do in the dojo.

I feel that what occurs in the dojo is just practise for the real thing. Its how you use it and go with the situation in the streets-I think jiyu waza was created for this purpose. The sad truth is the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA be it aikido or otherwise. (Unless we're talking oyama karate, muay thai and JKD...hee )

Kevin Leavitt
07-01-2005, 03:16 PM
I feel that what occurs in the dojo is just practise for the real thing. Its how you use it and go with the situation in the streets-I think jiyu waza was created for this purpose. The sad truth is the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA be it aikido or otherwise. (Unless we're talking oyama karate, muay thai and JKD...hee )

I would disagree with you as far as my experiences in aikido dojo. It does not do a good job of preparing you for a "real fight". I don't believe jiyu waza was created for this purpose either. Aikido is a DO art and as such it is designed to teach you principles. Those principle can be transferred into techniques that can be used in a real fight, but it is not the same thing as "preparing you for a real fight".

I won't assume to know really why jiyu waza was created at my experience level, but I will say from my experiences, that it does not prepare you for a fight. For me, it helped me transfer the principles and habits i learned into instincts. That certainly is a step closer to being prepared for a real fight, but far from why we focus on it, IMHO.

You are correct, no one will attack perfectly. As such no one will defend perfectly either. There are things you must learn or do to compensate for the "imperfect" situation you end up in.

I would also disagree with the statement "the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA". I have found the inverse to be true, at least in regards to Aikido.

In "real situations" as you stated, you are not perfect in your attack. Therefore, you cannot learn good technique and it is difficult to learn the principles. (at least as far as aikido is concerned). "realistic training" can amplify your bad habits, and reinforce them.

Can we train more realistically. yes there are ways to do that, but even they are done in a controlled matter. However, I believe when you enter this realm, you will find that you are doing something other than aikido and are missing the point of why aikido (a DO or WAY Art) was created.

The principles of aikido are universal in nature, but aikido as a methodology does not make for a good way to train for street fighitng or self defense if that is your cup of tea, and training for this does not make for good aikido.

L. Camejo
07-01-2005, 08:07 PM
Can we train more realistically. yes there are ways to do that, but even they are done in a controlled matter. However, I believe when you enter this realm, you will find that you are doing something other than aikido and are missing the point of why aikido (a DO or WAY Art) was created.
Of course it depends on how one tries too define Do or Jutsu. I don't think the 2 can be easily or rigidly separated (or should be). Imho there is no reason why the Do of any art can't or shouldn't embody the precise science and technical understanding of the Jutsu. The thread linked to here - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4147 -addresses this question. I don't believe the Do can be removed from the Jutsu without either element negatively affecting the progress of the other. As such, practicing a Do art should in no way hinder one's evolution in understanding the practical, utilitarian and technical scientific aspects that also make up the Do, which includes practical self defence training. Of course if SD is one's ONLY goal, then there are faster and better ways to achieve this, but one should not assume that this sort of training is neglected simply because the name of the art ends in "Do".

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
07-02-2005, 06:32 PM
agree Larry. However, the main focus of the DO arts is not "realistic training" or "training for street fighting". That is why we don't typically practice fast "boxing" skills, or Muay Thai kicking skills in aikido.

Certainly the aspects are there, however, the emphasis is on developing you internally, not externally, which, IMHO, affects things quite dramatically.

Ketsan
07-02-2005, 08:02 PM
I would also disagree with the statement "the more experience with "real situations" you have, the better you get in your MA". I have found the inverse to be true, at least in regards to Aikido.


I agree to a certain extent. It wont improve your technical skills or understanding but it will place your training in context and prepare you better for the next time you get into trouble.

L. Camejo
07-02-2005, 08:10 PM
I guess it depends on the manifestations of the DO that one experiences then.

Imho the only difference lies in what the primary focus is placed upon as indicated above. However imho there is no reason why one who practices the Do cannot embody the degree of applied technical knowledge (or more) that is existent in the Jutsu while still cultivating the inner aspects. Development in one does not mean that there cannot be development in the other. In fact I'd hazard to say that if one is not seeking to understand the Jutsu then the Do is sadly lacking in something that is pivotal to one's developoment in it. Maybe this is why some methods of Aikido are failing as both Do and Jutsu.

As far as "street fighting" or "realistic" training is concerned, no MA addresses that fully imho, whether Jutsu or not. Certainly the emphasis may be there, but there are many many aspects of "reality" that are never addressed in the dojo of any partiicular style of Martial Art. It may create a good fighter, but that is only one small part of "reality" training imho.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

eyrie
07-02-2005, 08:51 PM
Well said Larry! Well said!

Kevin Leavitt
07-03-2005, 06:19 AM
totally agree Larry!