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DustinAcuff
05-06-2005, 02:36 PM
i'm currently training Daito Ryu and was wondering, what are the technical differences between Daito Ryu and Aikido.

i've been told by some fellow students and sensei that we are considered by some variations of aikido to "brutal" because of the way we offset balance and execute some of our techniques. On the other hand, the majority of my fellow students are officers and prison guards, who have trained in Aikido as well as Daito Ryu, have said that they feel that aikido is less "effective" at neutralizing. Please note, i'm not trying to split hairs or claim one style is more effective than the other!!!!!! Aikido and Daito Ryu both passed through pretty much the same people for the last 1200 years anyway!!

here are some of the differences i have heard about from various sources:

the way we "offset" through raising and or cutting tends to be more pronounced.
our circles are smaller and while techniques are still as fluid, they tend to have more immediate response/effect
at shodan, a student tends to have approx 630 different techniques while modern aikido has approx 150-200ish.

to give an example lets use Rokkyo since it seems to be hot in the forum recently.

as uke's arm is intercted from the inside a downward cut is made while the opposite hand intercepts at the wrist for the pulse rub (forgive, my Japanese is almost non existent for spelling) and intercepting arm raises fire-dragon and intercepts uke's neck at the base of the skull, the wrist-hand will "raise" through an outward wrist turn while the neck-hand points downward, then tenkan is made and center, as well as uke, is lowered to the "high-kneeling" position with uke prone on the ground.

please let me know, also i apologize if this is being posted in the wrong area, as well as if i have butchered the technique.

Anat Amitay
05-06-2005, 02:45 PM
Qoute:
Aikido and Daito Ryu both passed through pretty much the same people for the last 1200 years anyway!!

As far as I know, O sensei passed away around 1969, so I don't know about the 1200 years... ;)
I'm not experienced enough to say anything about the rest, so I'll leave the rest of the space to those more ample!
Anat
(no offence meant)

aikidoc
05-06-2005, 02:50 PM
Comparing styles is always difficult. As to the number of techniques, I think that likely depends on the organization. The aikikai sets the standard for most affiliated dojos.

From what I have observed with limited viewing of Daito-ryu techniques there are similaries and some differences. The differences I have noted: finishing blows are used more often in Daito-ryu. Atemi is used more often that many styles of aikido (an issue I take umbrage with-I think aikido underutilizes it -see my article in June 2005 BBM). As far as executing techniques, the ones I have seen with Daito-ryu are very similar to Aikido in how they are executed. Slight stylistic differences in how ikkyo is executed is noted even amoung top aikido shihan compared to other shihan.

Dan Rubin
05-06-2005, 02:54 PM
Try this thread: "Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu's Relation to Aikido"

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3943&highlight=daito

Dan

DustinAcuff
05-06-2005, 03:25 PM
thanks alot Anat John and Dan! the link was quite helpful.

the comment on Aikido and Daito Ryu having both passing through the same people was a meant as a reference to the Aizu Clan who developed the art that became known Daito Ryu, and what the art that Takeda Sokaku taught O'Sensei. Before O'Sensei applied a different, more softened philosophy to Daito technique, there was no difference. Since then there have been various divisions.

as to the atemi waza present in Daito Ryu and Aikido, i have to admit i know very little of the atemi in aikido, however, from what i have seen in my training, unless the situation is a life-or-death type situation, Atemi should NEVER be used except to develop proficiency in training. The atemi i have seen tends to have extremely devastating consequences for uke, even one used off of a simple ikkyo or nikyo. the atemi associated with nikyo would shatter the carpals and metacarpals in the hand/wrist leaving uke maimed in that hand for life. The atemi i have seen with irimi-nage is an elbow strike delivered to the exposed clavicle notch the instant before the throw would be finished, in essence this blow would shatter the clavicles, sternum, and dislocate the sternum in relation to the ribs, causing what is known as a flail chest. the higher end of the atemi will result in the complete shutdown of any solid organ in the body. i can only speak for the Daito Ryu atemi i have seen, but i would hesitate to think that something that dangerous in a peaceful art could be under-emphasized.

but now i am curious, what are the Atemi-waza that are present in Aikido like?

NagaBaba
05-06-2005, 03:53 PM
DustinAcuff, be very careful, you are delivering very secret details of sacred art of Daito ryu. Daito ryu gods will punish you for sure!!! ;)

Nick Simpson
05-06-2005, 04:33 PM
I've fancied trying Daito - Ryu for a while but this makes it sound really appealing. I want to flail peoples chests too!

Dan Rubin
05-06-2005, 04:35 PM
Try this thread: "How do you define Atemi? and how do you use it?"

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3508&page=1&pp=25

There is an excellent "search" feature in the "forums" section. Change "Search Entire Posts" to "Search Titles Only" to make your search more efficient.

Dan

DustinAcuff
05-06-2005, 05:01 PM
thanks a lot once again Dan. by the way, the stuff i mentioned is just the intermediate level stuff, so i'm not worrying about giving away the secrets, i simply dont know any yet. i apoligize for clogging up the forums with stuff that is already there.

NagaBaba
05-06-2005, 09:38 PM
thanks a lot once again Dan. by the way, the stuff i mentioned is just the intermediate level stuff, so i'm not worrying about giving away the secrets, i simply dont know any yet. i apoligize for clogging up the forums with stuff that is already there.
ok, lets talk about aiki :D
How different is Daito ryu aiki and Aikido aiki?

Jeanne Shepard
05-06-2005, 10:58 PM
I had my first exposure to Daito Ryu Aikijitsu in Stockholm a few months ago. The teacher (Jorma Lyly Sensei) is a student of Seigo Okamoto Sensei. I was shocked to find how subtle (and effective) it was, not at all what my Aikido friends had led me to believe it would be like.

Jeanne :p

DustinAcuff
05-06-2005, 11:16 PM
Really Jeanne!! that is great to hear. The diffrences in what i'm studying are probably quite minimal as sensei believes that O'Sensei had the market cornered on philosophy so to speak, so he actually softened up what he teaches us. i'm curious, what did your aikido friends say about Daito? i've heard that most modern aikido conciders us "brutal"

by the way, i just realized i've never heard of any orginizations for Daito Ryu, but Sensei recived his shodan and possibly nidan under Katsumi Yonezawa, a 7th Dan.

Nagababa: i'm not quite sure how Daito aiki is diffrent from Aikido aiki so i'm not certain if i can answer the question adequately, but i'll give it a shot. I think I saw this on a Daito Ryu website, and it said something along the lines of Daito Ryu being a jiutsu and so the goal was on self-preservation above all else, which would make sense concidering how/why it was developed. Aikido...i think....was kind of the new philosophy applied to soften up an art since killing and maiming any/all of your opponents was no longer socially acceptable......i'm probably wrong

SeiserL
05-07-2005, 10:23 AM
Kondo Sensei will be at the Aiki Expo this month. Train with him and find out the differences and similiarities.

Don_Modesto
05-07-2005, 02:16 PM
I had my first exposure to Daito Ryu Aikijitsu in Stockholm a few months ago. The teacher (Jorma Lyly Sensei) is a student of Seigo Okamoto Sensei. I was shocked to find how subtle (and effective) it was, not at all what my Aikido friends had led me to believe it would be like.

Yes. Okamoto's videos and books are pretty off-putting. They look so fake. But several people whose opinions I value, including Stanley Pranin, vouched for him. I really REALLY wanted to take his UKEMI. I was lucky enough to get a chance to train with Mark Jakabcsin, a student of his, and I too was quite impressed with the subtlety of the technique.

Some of the Okamoto people regard his aiki as substantively different than standard aikido's. I don't find this to be the case myself. The UKEMI feels very similar to what I feel attacking Ikeda or Saotome, e.g. But I found Mark's explanations much clearer than most any other explanations I've had of the practice. Good stuff.

DustinAcuff
05-08-2005, 02:52 AM
Lynn, when/where is the aiki expo?? i heard something about it the other day but have no other information. i'd love to go and check it out depending on...well, everything. let me know and i'll see if i can be there!!

SeiserL
05-08-2005, 10:00 AM
Lynn, when/where is the aiki expo??

Go to AikidoJournal.com.

It this month, May 27-29, 2005
California State University at Dominguez Hills
Carson, So Cal

Hope to see everyone there.

BTW, in the first Expo, Kondo Sensei personally put a small bruise on my chest bone for working Ken at too short a miai. Very proud of that bruise. ;-)

Jorge Garcia
05-08-2005, 11:15 AM
Yes. Okamoto's videos and books are pretty off-putting. They look so fake. But several people whose opinions I value, including Stanley Pranin, vouched for him. I really REALLY wanted to take his UKEMI. I was lucky enough to get a chance to train with Mark Jacobson, a student of his, and I too was quite impressed with the subtlety of the technique.

Some of the Okamoto people regard his aiki as substantively different than standard aikido's. I don't find this to be the case myself. The UKEMI feels very similar to what I feel attacking Ikeda or Saotome, e.g. But I found Mark's explanations much clearer than most any other explanations I've had of the practice. Good stuff.

Last year, four of us, all aikidoists,blackbelts, and instructors from different styles went to train with one of Okamoto Sensei's students and we were all impressed. We followed by attending a two day seminar with Okamoto sensei himself and needless to say, were impressed again. Frankly, as an aikidoist, it threw me for a loop because it turned my world of definitions upside down. When we got finished, Daito ryu seemed like what Aikido was supposed to be and Aikido seemed more like what everyone said Daito ryu was. Now, that has to be qualified somewhat because Okamoto sensei is teaching the higher levels of Daito ryu so that the real essence of "aiki" won't be lost. Having said that, our experience was that that there aren't any "aiki" techniques in Aikido with the same feeling that Daito ryu has. Another thing was that what we did seemed more like jujutsu because it involves minimal force while what he did required no strength at all.. Some of the major Daito ryu principles are present in what we have been shown but are emphasized in a different way than in what Kondo sensei does. One final disclaimer is that some aikido teachers do have similar "aiki" type movements. I was able to see that my instructor, Kato sensei definitely was using similar principles. I don't know if he discovered them himself or was taught them. Most others I have had experience with don't seem to have any of that kind of "aiki" movement but not having trained with everyone, I can't speak for everyone. Okamoto sensei is 80 years of age. I hope his successor is as good as he is so that the world won't lose what he has learned.
Best

Jorge Garcia
05-08-2005, 11:36 AM
One more thing. Some of us felt like maybe O Sensei was holding back on his students. It may be that he would occasionally use one of those "Roppokai" moves to take someone down suddenly and then not show the move again. If you had never seen it before, it would be possible to do that and even for your experienced students not to recognize what you had just done. That could account for the many descriptions of having been thrown by him but the uke not understanding how it was done.

DustinAcuff
05-08-2005, 12:10 PM
I am not sure if O Sensei was holding back or not. I have heard that while no one could deny his technique (Daito Ryu), he did not know all of them and could simply have improvised one. I have also personally seen my Sensei do things along those lines. When asked he said that he sometimes goes years without doing it and will actually forget about the technique, but something about THAT attack brought it off of it's little shelf and he simply did it.

Don_Modesto
05-08-2005, 12:14 PM
....it threw me for a loop because it turned my world of definitions upside down. When we got finished, Daito ryu seemed like what Aikido was supposed to be and Aikido seemed more like what everyone said Daito ryu was.Don't ya hate it when that happens!? :D

Another thing was that what we did seemed more like jujutsu because it involves minimal force while what he did required no strength at all.I haven't had the pleasure of training with Kato, but I've felt similar subtlety with Saotome, Yamaguchi, Heiny, and others.

Don_Modesto
05-08-2005, 12:17 PM
ok, lets talk about aiki :D
How different is Daito ryu aiki and Aikido aiki?

Now I remember where I've seen you!

You were that guy on my first job (bag-boy in high school) who told me to get a left-handed bag stretcher from the manager on my first day! Still at it, are you?!

Ron Tisdale
05-09-2005, 10:40 AM
by the way, i just realized i've never heard of any orginizations for Daito Ryu, but Sensei recived his shodan and possibly nidan under Katsumi Yonezawa, a 7th Dan.

You may find it worth while to do some searches on the internet on the person that your teacher learned from. One example, from Stan Pranin's Encyclopedia (www.aikidojournal.com):

(6 May 1937). B. Hokkaido. 7th dan Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu-Kodokai. Junior high school teacher. Fluent in English. First taught by Kodo HORIKAWA. Has traveled to the U. S. , Mexico and Canada teaching Daito-ryu since the early 1970s and is one of the main persons responsible for the dissemination of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai in North America. Yonezawa has awarded a considerable number of HIDEN MOKUROKU transmission scrolls to American students of Daito-ryu. Began a teaching sabbatical to West Germany in 1988. Mr. Katsumi Yonezawa, 2-35-16 Hakuchodai, Muroran, Hokkaido Japan (0143)59-5438, (01427)5-3277.


FWIW,
Ron

samurai_kenshin
05-09-2005, 11:09 AM
I honestly wiouldn't quote myself on this, but the atemi i've seen in aikido are usually just there to distract your opponent, or keep one of his hands busy. They could be painful if intended to be such, but I don't think that's why they're there.

aikidoc
05-09-2005, 12:49 PM
Check out my discussion on atemi in the June 2005 issue of Black Belt Magazine.

NagaBaba
05-11-2005, 10:11 PM
Now I remember where I've seen you!

You were that guy on my first job (bag-boy in high school) who told me to get a left-handed bag stretcher from the manager on my first day! Still at it, are you?!
Well, I do my best! :D

Coming back to aiki stuff. As in Daito ryu active resitance isn't permited, instructors can do really amazing things. In generally, their attackers are much less experienced. Those two factors combined, aiki miracles happend and we are not surprised at all. ;) :rolleyes:

Me, I can also do similar magic with students that have 15 years less experience then me. One day, when Stan will invite me to Aiki Expo, just like PeterR, you will see it with your own eyes :p

However, when the very same students start to resiste AND counter my every move, everything change, no magic is possible anymore. evileyes evileyes evileyes

I'm convinced, that similar situation will happend with Daito ryu aiki. In case when attacker will not be "sensitive enough" for aiki magic, he will get severly hit or broken by simple jujutsu technique.

So I don't see any difference between Daito ryu and aikido, really. :rolleyes:

PeterR
05-11-2005, 10:40 PM
You heard it here first folks.

The evil Dr. S. and his equally evil pet Shodothug will be at AikiExpo 06 doing a joint demo/workshop.

We will start bombarding Stan with Blogs on the short comings of just about everyone (excluding our esteemed selves of course) to make this fantastic event possibly. How could he possibly refuse.

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2005, 08:28 AM
Peter: :) that was a good one...but carefull not to draw the UnNamed one in! He might hear us and the virus could spread!

Coming back to aiki stuff. As in Daito ryu active resitance isn't permited, instructors can do really amazing things. In generally, their attackers are much less experienced. Those two factors combined, aiki miracles happend and we are not surprised at all.

Most of the folks I know training in Daito ryu are ex wrestlers, judoka, aikidoka, etc. When Kondo Sensei asks for an attack he often first has the biggest guy in the room (I think Juan usually qualifies) throw him with a judo throw as the attack. Only after he is satisfied that the attack is competent does he then demo the technique. At least that's my experience. No magic...just damn good technique.

That said, often you do see the things you speak of.

Ron

batemanb
05-12-2005, 08:37 AM
I had my first exposure to Daito Ryu Aikijitsu in Stockholm a few months ago. The teacher (Jorma Lyly Sensei) is a student of Seigo Okamoto Sensei. I was shocked to find how subtle (and effective) it was, not at all what my Aikido friends had led me to believe it would be like.

Jeanne :p

that's an interesting bit of info, I didn't know he did Daito Ryu as well. When I met him at an Aikido seminar a couple of years back, he was introduced by Endo Sensei as one of his top students. He regularly comes over and teaches at an Aikido dojo in a town not too far from me. I got too uke for him back then, he's very good ;).

regards

Bryan

Spartandojo
06-01-2005, 12:48 AM
Peter: :) that was a good one...but carefull not to draw the UnNamed one in! He might hear us and the virus could spread!



Most of the folks I know training in Daito ryu are ex wrestlers, judoka, aikidoka, etc. When Kondo Sensei asks for an attack he often first has the biggest guy in the room (I think Juan usually qualifies) throw him with a judo throw as the attack. Only after he is satisfied that the attack is competent does he then demo the technique. At least that's my experience. No magic...just damn good technique.

That said, often you do see the things you speak of.

Ron Juan Ribot?

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2005, 07:47 AM
Yes, I believe that is his last name...big guy...looks like he lives in a gym, you know...

:) RT

Spartandojo
06-01-2005, 09:21 AM
Yes, that would be Juan Ribot.

siwilson
06-01-2005, 12:43 PM
Hi

Coming from Yoshinkan, I don't see there being a huge difference. I started in the early Yoshinkan forms, which some of my fellow Yoshinkai Aikidoka of today describe as crude. I tend to like them! :) But to say the differences between Daito Ryu and Yoshinkan Aikido are probable teaching method, kamae and strictness of kihon waza.

I am a little puzzled by the poster, and I hope he can inform me. He says Ikkyo, Nikyo, etc., which are first principle, second principle, etc. In Yoshinkan we say Ikkajo, Nikajo, etc., which is first control, second control, etc. From the Daito Ryu I have been exposed to (Obata Sensei) they use the later (Kajo) and it was O'Sensei who changed it to principle (Kyo) post WWII. Somebody enlighten me, please! :crazy:

I look forward to further posts (what do you reckon Ron?).

Osu!

Si

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2005, 01:11 PM
Hi

Coming from Yoshinkan, I don't see there being a huge difference. I started in the early Yoshinkan forms, which some of my fellow Yoshinkai Aikidoka of today describe as crude. I tend to like them! :) But to say the differences between Daito Ryu and Yoshinkan Aikido are probable teaching method, kamae and strictness of kihon waza.

I don't see a huge difference there either...some of the forms are a little different, some of the intent is much stronger in places (in my opinion); more invasive.

I am a little puzzled by the poster, and I hope he can inform me. He says Ikkyo, Nikyo, etc., which are first principle, second principle, etc. In Yoshinkan we say Ikkajo, Nikajo, etc., which is first control, second control, etc. From the Daito Ryu I have been exposed to (Obata Sensei) they use the later (Kajo) and it was O'Sensei who changed it to principle (Kyo) post WWII. Somebody enlighten me, please! :crazy:

I look forward to further posts (what do you reckon Ron?).


Well, some groups make little distinction between the aikido names and the daito ryu ones...some groups make little distinction between aikido and daito ryu period. It can vary widely. Strictly speaking though, 'kajo' refers to a list of different technques, not just one technique (like ikkyo, for instance). Ippon dori (ikkyo more or less) is a technique in the ikkajo syllabus...but there are about 30 different techniques in that syllabus...not just one.

From what I've been able to understand about the original poster, their lineage goes back to someone whose teaching record in north america seems to be a bit mixed...It would not surprise me to see some very good practitioners in that lineage, and some rather 'interesting' ones. But that can happen even in the best of schools! :)

Best,
Ron

DustinAcuff
06-01-2005, 01:19 PM
The reason I say Ikkyo, Nikyo, etc instead of Ikkajo, etc is because that is the way I have been taught. My sensei was an uchi deshi for Yonezawa Sensei. I am not sure why I am being taught -kyo instead of -kajo. Possibly to keep a better degree of understanding with Aikido. It could be out of respect to O Sensei because he was the more compassionate man over Sokaku Takeda. I am really not sure myself.

Ron, I have to agree. Sensei in an unusual practitioner. 43 years old. 40 years martial arts. USMC 4 years. Police for a number of years. Bouncer for even more. Ranked black belt (or comprable) in 4 styles. He just settled down and became a full time sensei last year.

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2005, 01:38 PM
Interesting...I didn't know that Yonezawa had uchideshi in the states...could you elaborate? As I said, mixed bag with his students...

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/search.php?searchid=3650 gives quite a bit of the varied background. But if you like what your teacher teaches, and he/she behaves appropriately, that's all that really matters.

Ron

DustinAcuff
06-01-2005, 02:05 PM
He was not uchideshi in the states. He went to Yonezawa in Hokkaido and lived as uchi deshi for 2 years (I think), sometime during or after his time in the USMC. I really do like what I am being taught, even if it is not traditional, but more than that I am confident in the effectiveness of what I am being taught.

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2005, 02:09 PM
Ah, is your instructor John Denora? I heard that he stayed in hokaido for a few months...tops. Any documentation on that?

Ron

DustinAcuff
06-01-2005, 02:27 PM
Nope, not John Denora. Mike Tan. For some info on him, here is a link to a set of DVDs he was just asked to make : http://www.trsdirect.com/product.php?sku=SD-77 Everything that the promo says is true, but is hyped up a few notches because the company had bad luck with the last aikido guy they dealt with. And he is actually 5'4".

NagaBaba
06-01-2005, 09:55 PM
Ron, I have to agree. Sensei in an unusual practitioner. 43 years old. 40 years martial arts.
So he started MA training being 3 years old? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: Wow!! I mean WOW!!! evileyes
Dustin, be serious. No one will believe in such nonsens.

justinc
06-01-2005, 11:38 PM
That's not that hard to do if he was trained by family. My instructor has two kids - both of them under 4 years old. They get both serious training and muck-around stuff. They know the basics of techniques and are really good at falls and taking balance. Several times we've seen the younger child, who has a love of climbing things, do back flips off chairs and land in a perfect front breakfall.