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ChrisHein
05-03-2005, 01:04 AM
I teach and practice Rokkyo on a regular basis, it however seem that many school have dropped it. I was wondering what schools it's still prevalent in.

-Chris

PeterR
05-03-2005, 01:39 AM
That depends on the school.

For some Rokkyo is only a reversed grip ikkyo, for others its a wakigatame.

We do both regularily.

grondahl
05-03-2005, 01:57 AM
That depends on the school.

For some Rokkyo is only a reversed grip ikkyo, for others its a wakigatame.

We do both regularily.

Reversed grip ikkyo, thats how i would describe gokkyo.
Does wakigatame focus on elbow or shoulder-control?

ChristianBoddum
05-03-2005, 03:12 AM
Isn´t Rokkyo the "elbowcrusher" - shihonage going to the other shoulder ?
I´ve seen this done in Daito Ryu as a throw , scary stuff :eek:

Aikilove
05-03-2005, 03:41 AM
There are others too like "nanakyo" and hachikyo etc etc. They are not even named most of the times but only refered to as henka wasa of ikkyo or jonkyo etc.

Rokkyo however is probably a borderline general kihon. One can see both 2nd and 3rd doshu do this frequently against jo tsuki etc.

A try to explain it: Take a karate like tsuki at chest level delivered with ukes right hand (your left side). Sidestep slightly to your left and meet the punching arm from the side with your left hand( like you were about to do kote gaeshi but more to the outside of ukes hand instead of on top of it).

Extend the punch forward and down while you do a tenkan (again kind of like kote gaeshi).

At the same time let your right hand, palm up, grab the punching hand from below.

Now, when ukes hand has been guided down and to the side (thus taking ukes balance), let your left hand grip roll away from your belly and your right hand roll towards your belly, rotating ukes arm in the process, exposing his elbow toward you.

This is done at the same time as the tenkan is completed, your lower left arm making full contact with ukes arm, your hand now leading ukes hand up, but with the contact of your left arm with ukes arm keeping his elbow low, thus creating a lever to lower ukes whole body down.

The pressure should be to the side of ukes elbow i.e. 90 degrees angle away from straight in to the elbow oposite how the elbow bends.

The end position should be something like you lowering you hip to secure the downwards pressure on the side of ukes elbow. Ukes arm should be pointing almost verticaly up. You maintaining the grip with both hands at about chest height. Your left foot forward.

Hard to do, quite dangerous to train fast, but fun to train.

O, btw. I think I've heard this one being refered to as waki gatame too.

Train safe!

Greg Jennings
05-03-2005, 05:56 AM
Hey Peter,

Rokkyo is AKA "Hiji Osae". It is the "elbow crushing" technique someone above mentioned. That to which some practice as a reverse grip ikkyo is Gokyo or "Ude Nobashi" ==> "Arm Stretching".

There are various flavors of rokkyo, but to me the big difference is in the "Elbow crushing" flavor and the "lever the tricep in the arm pit" flavor. The latter, I think, captures the original intent better while the latter is friendlier to uke and is often easier to teach.

FWIW,

batemanb
05-03-2005, 08:27 AM
We practice rokkyo at our dojo, also known as hijishime (elbow lock). Quite a few variations of it, but basically take the arm as if doing nikkyo, then continue to wind uke's arm up as much as you can. Place your elbow over uke's elbow and then turn your hips into it, a very powerful lock and requires great care not to snap uke's arm.

rgds

Bryan

akiy
05-03-2005, 09:01 AM
Funny, I was just showing this technique (rokkyo) to a dojomate last night for tantodori...

-- Jun

senshincenter
05-03-2005, 09:12 AM
We practice it as well.

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 09:20 AM
"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

happysod
05-03-2005, 09:29 AM
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient Honestly, it exists, I've seen it! Oh wait, you mean you don't like it? It's actually not bad as a catch-up technique if your ikkyo goes pear-shaped, but I'd agree it wouldn't make my top 5.

Pauliina Lievonen
05-03-2005, 09:36 AM
Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.
Maybe you should mention this to Alex (of the "Defending against aikido" thread). :)

We do this technique also, especially in tantodori. Our syllabus seems to give three alternative names, udehishigi/ hijikimeosae/ rokkyo, also called "terrible elbow lock" when people get confused with all the names - it sounds funnier in Dutch... :p

kvaak
Pauliina

Nick Simpson
05-03-2005, 09:37 AM
Amen to that. I always use it when I mess up my ikkyo or if uke is being arkward, people dont half drop straight to the floor :)

Ron Tisdale
05-03-2005, 09:44 AM
"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

I'm a little confused...are you saying this relative to hiji shime/ wakigatame? Aren't most ufc type matches ended with a simple arm bar of some type? These are trained attackers, and they are tapping regularly to this type of technique. Waki gatame is a long time judo standard for submission...

Just currious,
Ron

jester
05-03-2005, 10:19 AM
"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

Not sure what you mean by illusory. Waki-gatame is really very efficient. It can be done from a punch, a thrust, or a push where the arm is extended, if the attacker pulls back and bends his arm, you can go right into Kote Gaeshi. The 2 techniques work together.

If you try Kote Gaeshi, and the attacker extends his arm to over power you, his arm will go right into waki-gatame.

If you throw Kote Gaeshi down the line of uke's feet, waki gatame will be thrown perpendicular to his feet. This is an almost unbeatable combination.

If you try to get waki gatame on a resistant uke, and you don't look at other options, then of course the technique will fail.

ChrisHein
05-03-2005, 11:18 AM
It also combo's nicely with nikkyo. It's hard to make nikkyo work if uke resists by straightining his elbow, but it will set up nicely with Rokkyo.

-Chris

Fred Little
05-03-2005, 12:39 PM
"elbow crushing" technique ????
No trained attacker will attack with arms straight, instead, they ALWAYS bend elbows. Straight elbow is easy to snap only with light touch, so nobody attack this way.
One more illusory technique. Ikkyo is much more efficient.

One of the points that a number of my teachers emphasized on the question of rokkyo vs. ikkyo took a simlar tack: ikkyo enables nage to deal with an attacker who has trained enough to know better to present a straight arm.

But I think the KISS principle holds. If uke offers a straight arm, take the rokkyo.

It usually doesn't take too many repetitions for uke to begin to turn into a "trained attacker."

And then it's a pretty simple matter to return to regularly scheduled ikkyo keiko....

FL

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 12:44 PM
I'm a little confused...are you saying this relative to hiji shime/ wakigatame? Aren't most ufc type matches ended with a simple arm bar of some type? These are trained attackers, and they are tapping regularly to this type of technique. Waki gatame is a long time judo standard for submission...

Just currious,
Ron
But they work this technique in ne-waza, straightening bended elbow. It is difficult but possible, cos one can use all his body to do it. Ever try do it standing on resisting/countering attacker? :D

In aikido it is very common, that uke has already arm straight, right from the beginning of attack. Nage has nothing to do to set up his arm. That fact creates illusion of magnificent efficency of this technique. :p
Hi Pauliina,
Tantodori is another terrible illusion. :D

If you try Kote Gaeshi, and the attacker extends his arm to over power you, his arm will go right into waki-gatame.
jester,
Don't be offended, but it is very simplistic way of countering Kote Gaeshi, not worth even to study. May be, when you do compet with rules and all, attacker can feel safe to do it, but normally his elbow will be broken. Thats why one can't counter this way. Particularly when you counter, one must always maintain martial spirit, and expects the worst/most devastating respons for his counter.

ChrisHein,
again, wrong way to counter nikyo. No martial spirit at all. You can't limit yourself to such simplistic scenario.

Ron Tisdale
05-03-2005, 01:20 PM
I'm not so sure...I've had people throw me with my elbow not completely straight in hiji shime, but the lock went through to the shoulder anyway, and I had to take the ukemi. And it was someone smaller than I am who did it. When I attack yokomenuchi my arm is in kamae position...not completely straight...but when my teacher does hiji shime he doesn't have to twist or torque the arm; he breaks my balance, I float for a second, and the lock is on. I also know people who have defended themselves from attacks using this technique.

So I see it used in newaza, standup attacks, and dojo situations. Doesn't seem so magical to me...not to mention that if I apply it standing and the elbow doesn't lock out, I just remove my feet from the ground and WALA! we have a reclining pin! Ok, and maybe uke has a hyperextended elbow...but what the hey...you can't have everything... :)

Ron

jester
05-03-2005, 02:17 PM
jester,
Don't be offended, but it is very simplistic way of countering Kote Gaeshi, not worth even to study.

No offense, but I have no clue what your talking about.

If I try WakiGatame and you pull your arm in to protect it, you will go down with KoteGaeshi. I can almost 100% guarantee it.

Ron Tisdale
05-03-2005, 02:25 PM
Maybe when he said straigten, he didn't mean lock the elbow....

senshincenter
05-03-2005, 03:05 PM
Well maybe we should say that it is extremely unlikely that one would be able to pull off Rokkyo in many of the ways that it is practiced in a lot of places - such as when it is done as a Kihon Waza or Shu level training - outside of controlled environments. For example, if one were to jump from Ideal phase training like Rokkyo against a punch and/or against a knife to the expectation that one can defend oneself with Rokkyo against someone that is punching them and/or attempting to stab them with a knife - then, yeah, that would seem a bit delusional.

Still, Rokkyo is a viable technique, and like a whole lot of other Kihon Waza, it really finds its tactical viability when one transcends and/or departs from basic training and/or whenever one understands basic training in a way that is different from modern day scenario-based self-defense training.

Along the same line of thought - at our dojo we don't do anything empty-handed against a knife/tanto. Why? Because, even when we want to understand principles through our Kihon Waza, we can do so in ways that are not so "distant" from actual applications. For similar reasons, we don't practice Rokkyo against mune-tsuki - at least not the way it was shown to me by my various Shihan (e.g. uke comes flying in with an over-extended punch that remains thus as nage applies Rokkyo). Rather, we tend to study Rokkyo from fixated attacks (e.g. grabs) and/or when we apply it against ballistic attacks (e.g. strikes) we tend to have some other move, situation, event, or response, etc., that leads into the opening for Rokkyo.

ChrisHein
05-03-2005, 03:26 PM
Szczepan Janczuk, I really can't tell when you're jokeing......

-Chris Hein

jester
05-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Well maybe we should say that it is extremely unlikely that one would be able to pull off Rokkyo in many of the ways that it is practiced in a lot of places - such as when it is done as a Kihon Waza or Shu level training - outside of controlled environments.

Maybe I have to see how Rokkyo differs from what I am envisioning it looking like. I haven't seen it practiced in any other school other than mine, and a Miyama Ryu Jiujitsu school I attended.

I guess it all depends on the way the attacker attacks. It's probably easier to get against pushing type grabs etc. I would think that if you didn't interupt uke's balance, it would be very hard to pull off.

anyone know some good video links?

jester
05-03-2005, 03:59 PM
I found this thread that also talked about Rokkyo

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103

Peter Goldsbury
05-03-2005, 06:00 PM
If I am not mistaken, this waza is illustrated on p.139 of Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "Aikido", where it is called "ude-hishigi" (arm-smashing :D ). I would suppose that K Ueshiba regards it as relatively advanced, since it is shown as jo-tori.

I say, "if not mistaken", because I have heard it called 6-kyo only in the US. It was a favourite of M Kanai, though he also taught the correct ukemi for it.

senshincenter
05-03-2005, 06:43 PM
Hi Peter,

Yes, that a variation of the technique I, as one person, had in mind through this discussion (that's the one I was thinking about).

Tim, I only have one other variation (on video) of that technique up on our web site. For the sake of discussion and in attempt to meet your request, one can see that video here:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/controlmaintenance.html

The "Rokkyo" is the second technique performed in the flow. In this particular version, though we are doing it against a grab, you can still see an example of our approach, in that Rokkyo is executed after a type of "set-up" (i.e. a kind of "ikkyo ura" prefix-tenkan) - whereupon it finds for itself (what I would consider to be) a better opening for its tactical application.

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 09:18 PM
I'm not so sure...I've had people throw me with my elbow not completely straight in hiji shime, but the lock went through to the shoulder anyway, and I had to take the ukemi. And it was someone smaller than I am who did it. When I attack yokomenuchi my arm is in kamae position...not completely straight...but when my teacher does hiji shime he doesn't have to twist or torque the arm; he breaks my balance, I float for a second, and the lock is on. I also know people who have defended themselves from attacks using this technique.

So I see it used in newaza, standup attacks, and dojo situations. Doesn't seem so magical to me...not to mention that if I apply it standing and the elbow doesn't lock out, I just remove my feet from the ground and WALA! we have a reclining pin! Ok, and maybe uke has a hyperextended elbow...but what the hey...you can't have everything... :)

Ron
You know, Ron, teachers are half-gods and can do a lot of Magic :D but we, mortals, we must de real things to make it work ;)
from my experience, if attacker is "alive", knows how to attack, make counters and is stronger, you will never got him in hiji shime. If attacker is "throwing doll" everything becomes possible :D

Ideally in hiji shime one must lock 3 joints simultaneously and use it to maintain off balance, to be able handle stronger and more experienced attacker. It happened to me too, to lock only shoulder, but attacker was less experienced and didn’t counter very much.

In generally, I prefer techniques applied on bended joints like kotegaeshi, ikkyo or nikkyo, cos attacker tends to rather bend body(and joints) to protect himself from any technique.

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 09:32 PM
No offense, but I have no clue what your talking about.

If I try WakiGatame and you pull your arm in to protect it, you will go down with KoteGaeshi. I can almost 100% guarantee it.
I know my writing is not clear, I had long day :o

There is a LOT more of scenarios how to efficently counter. I do often very "strange" practice with some friends with serious martial background and long time ago lost your optimism :D
Nothing in the world is “100% guarantee”. Not even close to 10%.
My point is, straight arm simply doesn’t exist during “good, solid” attack, that’s why I will always choose ikkyo or kotegaeshi for example.

Rokkyo can be pedagogical tool to learn some stuff, but as working technique? naaaahhh….

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 09:39 PM
Well maybe we should say that it is extremely unlikely that one would be able to pull off Rokkyo in many of the ways that it is practiced in a lot of places - such as when it is done as a Kihon Waza or Shu level training - outside of controlled environments. .
Even in the dojo in very controlled environments, if you allow to attacker natural behaviour, and promise not to hurt him, it will be still very extremely unlikely. I do often free very friendly practice, it helps when attacker is afraid, otherwise nononooo :uch:

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 09:46 PM
But I think the KISS principle holds. If uke offers a straight arm, take the rokkyo.
FL
Generally I agree with you, however, if one day all aikidoka would be "well trained attackers" rokkyo will simply disappear. :D

That’s why I said it has not “raison d’être” Rokko is only for attacker-looser. ;)

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 09:48 PM
Szczepan Janczuk, I really can't tell when you're jokeing......

-Chris Hein
Practice more Rokkyo, my friend, more Rokkyo :p

NagaBaba
05-03-2005, 09:52 PM
It was a favourite of M Kanai, though he also taught the correct ukemi for it.
Interesting! .............hmhmh...........I need 40 more years practice, for sure. Every day 30 minutes Rokkyo?
:o ppl in the dojo will hate me :o

PeterR
05-03-2005, 10:07 PM
Reversed grip ikkyo, thats how i would describe gokkyo.
Does wakigatame focus on elbow or shoulder-control?
Ah - my bad - right you are. Apologies all round.

Wakigatame is an interesting technique. I feel that generally it is a forearm control with the added property that shoulder control can be added and if necessary pain and damage can be applied to the elbow.

jester
05-03-2005, 10:38 PM
There is a LOT more of scenarios how to efficently counter. I do often very "strange" practice with some friends with serious martial background and long time ago lost your optimism :D
Nothing in the world is "100% guarantee". Not even close to 10%.
My point is, straight arm simply doesn't exist during "good, solid" attack, that's why I will always choose ikkyo or kotegaeshi for example.

Rokkyo can be pedagogical tool to learn some stuff, but as working technique? naaaahhh….

Szczepan, you are living in a nice little world my friend. It's a shame that you aren't able to do this particular technique effectively.

I used it before, and I can guarantee you it works. I had someone pushing my face against a metal bookshelf with their left arm while their right hand was holding my shirt. I pushed my cheek into his hand to build up a little resistance, then pushed his wrist off with my right hand and turned to my left. The guy went down to the floor like a 250 lb. rock.

I kept the hold on his elbow all the way to the ground. This wasn't a "strange" practice with some friends either.

After seeing your comments, I can basically ignore them from now on. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. :freaky:

PeterR
05-03-2005, 10:47 PM
Wakigatame under full resistance randori is one of my most effective tools. I use it as counter to shomen-ate, as a technique in its own right against both advancing and withdrawing tanto, under a whole range of conditions. It's a great technique under dynamic conditions. Last time I did Judo randori I used it.

I agree that nothing is ever guaranteed but Rokkyo can be pedagogical tool to learn some stuff, but as working technique? naaaahhh….Naaaahhh right back at you. :p

jester
05-03-2005, 11:01 PM
Tim, I only have one other variation (on video) of that technique up on our web site.

David, Thanks for the link, but my computer is having trouble playing the clip. I'll try it on my work computer tomorrow.

Peter, I agree with you 100%

ChrisHein
05-03-2005, 11:31 PM
Honistly I think Rokkyo is a more practical technique then Ikkyo. Ikkyo is a great technique to demonstrate lots of principals, but when people are going crazy on you, it's much safer (for nage) and effective to drop your elbow over the top and rokkyo them down. Szczepan are you sure we're talking about the same technique? There is little doubt that it's very effective, I have gotten it with several people, in competition and not.

-Chris

PeterR
05-03-2005, 11:50 PM
Interestingly the first Wakigatame (Rokkyo) variation taught in the Shodokan curriculum is very similar to the first Oshitaoshi (Ikkyo) taught. Uke's attack is identical as is tori's initial wrist rotation and movement of the secondary hand. What does differ is the direction of the kuzushi. For Oshitaoshi it is straight in - in fact a strike to the face. For wakigatame it is to the side and back of uke. The secondary hand in the first case goes to the elbow in the latter to the wrist.

To teach wakigatame timing I have a student practice the initial movement of oshitaoshi and then just change the kuzushi direction.

Rupert Atkinson
05-03-2005, 11:59 PM
Judo has ude-gatame (straight armlock with palm-up) and waki-gatame (side armlock with little finger up). Some Aikido schools do ude-gatame for rokkyo, others do waki-gatame, and I think some of the above discussions are confusing the two. Tomiki people do waki-gatame, Yoshinkan do both, Kyushindo do both, and Aikikai schools seem confused as some do one, some do the other, and many do neither (and all mix the names up). Ude-gatame is a crude elbow lock. Waki-gatame is preferred as it is 100 times more effective when you get it. Most people who try to do waki-gatame end up in ude-gatame - it takes a while to get used to but once there, you will come to love it. If anyone ever attacks me it is amidst my first choices of what to do. And, there is far more control with waki-gatame than ude-gatame.

Actually, my guess is - it is just a guess - that those teachers who do ude-gatame were probably shown waki-gatame but missed the point (a very common mistake).

And, to concur with above posters, if uke bends his arm to try to escape waki-gatame (well, if it is on, there is no escape), first you have an opportunity to take nikyo, then kote-gaeshi. Also, if uke resists your ikkyo or nikkyo, waki-gatame reveals itself instantly - perhaps O-Sensei would have called it a present from the gods :)

PS Videos are great for explaining stuff - the one above to me seems to end palm up-ish, which would make it ude-gatame.

PPS And if anyone - ANYONE - tells me waki-gatame is not effective, well, just lend me your arm ... :D

xuzen
05-04-2005, 12:01 AM
I teach and practice Rokkyo on a regular basis, it however seem that many school have dropped it. I was wondering what schools it's still prevalent in.

-Chris

Rokkyo = wakigatame = hiji shime osae. Now I understand. These multiple terminologies had me all confused. Rokkyu or Hiji Shime Osae as the Yoshinkan people call it as a technique is alive and kicking in my school. It is even part of the grading syllabus at the 3rd or 4th kyu level.

However, this technique does not appear in the Dan or higher level grading. I have to hazard a guess that it is not effective or too difficult to pull off as per S. Janczuk post and too close to uke for comfort.

Personally, I seldom try this tech as primary tech, more of like secondary when I failed the first one as in henka waza.

Boon.

maikerus
05-04-2005, 01:50 AM
As one of the relatively few techniques that go against the joint as opposed to extending the natural motion of a joint I would say hijishie is pretty important to include it in any Aikido curriculum.

It's the second technique we teach in our beginners course. Right after Sokumen Irimi. Just FYI #3 is ikkajo and #4 is nikajo...and then the beginers course finishes.

FWIW,

--Michael

ChrisHein
05-04-2005, 03:45 AM
In class I teach 3 variations, One is an ura, spinning to the rear, Two is an omote, diving to where they don't have an arm to post, and Three is a direct where you lock the rotator cuff and drive them straight back.

-Chris

raul rodrigo
05-04-2005, 10:10 AM
In judo, waki gatame is a standard and effective counter against a opponent who is stiff arming to prevent you from entering for a hip throw or osoto gari. Not at all illusory.

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
05-04-2005, 10:29 AM
Uhhh... There's a rokyo/wakigatame? :confused: :drool:

akiy
05-04-2005, 11:02 AM
Uhhh... There's a rokyo/wakigatame? :confused: :drool:

Maybe this page will help:

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/reference

-- Jun

senshincenter
05-04-2005, 12:06 PM
I would never say that ude-gatame is ineffective and/or even less effective than waki-gatame. Both have their place, and if they find their place, or better, if their place happens upon them, they work and they work extremely well.

I also would not classify ude-gatame and waki-gatame by finger position - though there is an obvious difference there. Rather, for me, the latter makes use of the armpit and the former does not. For me - that is the big distinction between the two - even if the fingers and/or palm have to also be in slightly different positions for the elbow to act as a impetus for pinning and/or kuzushi, etc. So, for me, the "Rokkyo" in the video above is a version of "waki-gatame" - not ude-gatame.

On a different note: Szczepan, perhaps you can direct us to a video and/or some pictures in a well-known book where we can see the version of "rokkyo" that you are referring to. I am still under the impression that your position is more supported by particular training applications than it is by actual tactical architectures (particularly because many of us, myself included, have either used and/or seen waki-gatame used in "real-life" conditions and had it succeed beautifully). I feel I could understand your point better if I could cancel out this suspicion. Much appreciation in advance.

david

jester
05-04-2005, 12:48 PM
A good version of Ude-gatame in Tomiki Aikido is the 21st technique of the San Kata. It's in the Tanto Dori section.

David, I saw the video. Nice stuff! We don't usually go to the ground, but that certainly is a good option.

Jun, good link. I still feel alien when I do Aikikai style Aikido, but this gives me better reference for the similarities. It would be good to see a movie clip link for each version, or even a gif animation.

NagaBaba
05-04-2005, 05:00 PM
Naaaahhh right back at you. :p
all right, next time you come back to civilization, let me know. I’ll attack you with tanto to check out rokkyo :D

NagaBaba
05-04-2005, 05:03 PM
PPS And if anyone - ANYONE - tells me waki-gatame is not effective, well, just lend me your arm ... :D
Straigh arm or bended arm?
s.(curious ;) )

NagaBaba
05-04-2005, 05:17 PM
Honistly I think Rokkyo is a more practical technique then Ikkyo.
-Chris
Doing ikkyo you have more choices, how to protect attacker. Rokkyo tend to damage elbow very quickly.

Also for henka waza, once you are in position to do rokkyo and it doesn't work, there is not so many options to do follow up, and you are very engaged with all your body in very specific position trying to control him. From ikkyo position, it is another story. There are infinite possibility to switch to any technique and any direction.

Third point is, who in the world attacks with straight punches? -- only aikidoka :D :D :D

99.99% of these kind of attacks are jabs, and ikkyo is more appropriate to such common attacks.

senshincenter
05-04-2005, 06:43 PM
Szczepan,

I think I sort of get what you are saying, only some video would make it sure. With no video, let me say...

It seems you are working off of the premise that highly skilled fighters don't attack with straight (prolonged extended) arms, and because the training applications that you have seen have folks practicing waki-gatame against straight (prolonged extended) arms, waki-gatame to some degree must be questioned tactically.

If this is the case, I would say that the final conclusion is a jump in logic. Rather, one can only say that the particular training method is something that should be questioned tactically - not the technique itself. All statistics and percentages aside, I guess one could say that there are some problems here with what most by default come to expect when they want to apply waki-gatame. However, while we may say that skilled fighters may not at all attack with designs so open to waki-gatame when they are punching, two facts remain: 1. There are extremely few skilled fighters (I personally would be prone to saying there are none) that have not had their arm straightened within a physical confrontation; and 2. There are extremely few skilled fighters (again, I personally would be prone to saying there are none) that have not for one reason or another opted to straighten their arm within a physical confrontation. In the first case, the person attempting waki-gatame is employing Target Creation in order to create a tactical viability for that technique. In the second case, the person attempting waki-gatame is employing Target Availability in order to create a tactical viability for that technique.

Final point: While it may be true that skilled attackers don't attack with straight arms, it is not true that arms can never straighten from within a physical confrontation. Hence, even if one feels that waki-gatame is over-dependent upon the straight arm, one cannot say that waki-gatame can never work and/or will never find its place from which it can work.

As for protecting uke, I would rather not protect my attacker by fighting him/her. And I would not want to get into that Westbrook and Ratti "gospel" of minimum damage, so I would not want to compare ikkyo and rokkyo in terms of morality, etc. Still, I can say, for me, what makes waki-gatame the most effective, especially against big strong folks that don't want to do whatever you want them to do (or whatever), is that energy should not be stifled in the elbow. Rather, energy should, as in Ikkyo, travel up the arm into the shoulder and head area. For a Nage to risk breaking and/or injuring uke's elbow (or an attacker's elbow), such a Nage will also have to risk the technique failing, as its mechanical advantage, and thus its chance for success, is greatly reduced whenever energy is localized at the elbow (and the chance for injury at the elbow is increased).

In the clip I offered, I am employing Target Creation by straightening out the arm in order to create the opening for Rokkyo. One can also see this, I feel, in Kisshomaru's example - when the waza in question uses the length of the jo to lead and extend uke's arm into a position more harmonious with waki-gatame.

NagaBaba
05-04-2005, 07:54 PM
Thank you David, very nice analysis. Let me think about it. And sorry, no video for the moment.

PeterR
05-04-2005, 08:29 PM
Also I will add that you don't need straight arm to start wakigatamae.

senshincenter
05-04-2005, 08:34 PM
In order to keep room for what Szczepan is saying, Peter, perhaps you could describe what position of the arm is optimal for waki-gatame to be employed - like, what delineates the window of opportunity for this technique. I ask, because I can see where what one might call a "bent" arm could cause a lot of problems for such a technique.

d

PeterR
05-04-2005, 09:05 PM
Hi David;

As you know most Aikido techniques have an omote and an ura.

[Peter cracks his fingers before attempting the unsatisfactory - describing technique using keyboard].

With our tanto strikes the arm is never locked straight in any case. There is a forward and a withdrawing movement with very little time (effectively none) in the transition period. So by way of example.

Perform taisabaki to the inside of the strike grabbing for the lower part of the forearm with both hands (the actual target of the grab tends to be higher sliding down into position). Drop the elbows, arch back and twist the body while bringing your hands up and over. You are taking uke forward and to the side - his arm will be straightened by your action if the timing is right.

If your timing is off or uke is withdrawing tanto the ura variation simply takes uke in the direction he is moving and to the same side. Less of a body twist is required in the ura version. In both cases strong body movement will act to straighten that arm.

Again in our little version of randori this technique works quite often. Very simple to do.

Hope this helps.

PeterR
05-04-2005, 10:55 PM
Before I'm misunderstood let me also point out that attempting to initiate this technique on a withdrawing tanto is a lost cause - far better to follow the technique in with an atemi-waza or a different kansetuwaza (usually to the outside of uke). If the arm is withdrawn completely advantage shifts to the resistant uke. The grab is initiated during the tanto strike - omote and ura is decided by what follows.

In Judo my opponents grip was at the front of my dogi - his arm was bent and quite strong. I put both hands to his wrist and torqued my body moving back and to the side rolling over to control the shoulder. Another variation which worked like a charm - might not the next time with the same person though.

jester
05-04-2005, 11:07 PM
Doing ikkyo you have more choices, how to protect attacker. Rokkyo tend to damage elbow very quickly.

Also for henka waza, once you are in position to do rokkyo and it doesn't work, there is not so many options to do follow up, and you are very engaged with all your body in very specific position trying to control him. From ikkyo position, it is another story. There are infinite possibility to switch to any technique and any direction.

Third point is, who in the world attacks with straight punches? -- only aikidoka :D :D :D

99.99% of these kind of attacks are jabs, and ikkyo is more appropriate to such common attacks.

First of all your likelihood to do anything off a good jab is slim to none. I think I can prove it if you let me jab at you a few times!

Second, I'm not to interested in protecting an attacker. If you play with the bull, your going to get the horn. Wakigatame is a great control hold though.

Third, if you read my post, you'll note that I did wakigatame not from a punch, but from a push. It worked, debate over. You can keep your knife at home.

As far as many techniques to choose from, there are a bunch. Also, when your attacker is distracted, off balance, pushing on you etc. his arm will extend.

In reality, there's very few techniques your going to do immediately after someone launches a hook, cross, jab, uppercut, etc. You have to move out of the way, break balance, and see what happens.

Don't you do this? If not, it's obvious why you don't think wakigatame would work.

I never try to do a particular technique (this will get you in a trap), the appropriate technique will show itself once movement starts.
Your attacker will walk right into something.

ChrisHein
05-05-2005, 02:38 AM
I teach 3 follow ups from Rokkyo that work awesomely.
You are right, no one attacks with straight Punch's (not even Aikidoka if they are smart!). I never expected to get it from a punch. Usually from someone straight arming you to keep you at bay. Or someone sticking something in your face, like a gun, knife, finger, what ever. I under stand what you're saying about straight arm attacks, but people when resisting will try and do the opposite of what ever you are trying to control them with. If you are using an ikkyo they will often straight the arm in order to turn it elbow down for an escape, thats another time rokkyo will come into effect. As far as controlling with out hurting, that depends on how big, and how good your attacker is.

-Chris Hein

deepsoup
05-05-2005, 03:22 AM
You are right, no one attacks with straight Punch's (not even Aikidoka if they are smart!).
Shomenate. If the attacking arm isn't straight (or perhaps I should say "unbending"), it isn't going to be effective. It isn't a punch, but it is atemi.

Wakigatamae is the "standard" counter to shomenate in the Shodokan syllabus. (By which I mean thats the counter that is in the randori no kata no ura waza.)

Sean
x

ChrisHein
05-05-2005, 03:51 PM
I disagree, I don't belive your arms should ever be locked straight. they may go straight, but only for a second.

-Chris

senshincenter
05-05-2005, 05:18 PM
Chris,

I think Sean made it clear that he meant something quite different from "locked straight" when he wrote "perhaps I should say 'unbending'".

If I may, I think Szczepan's critique comes alive when one suggests that he/she should or could execute Rokkyo against a knife or a gun that is stuck in one's face. Such a training scenario, I would agree, should raise some tactical questions. However, I feel such a scenario should raise similar questions even if one were to "respond" with Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, or what have you. In such cases, Rokkyo is not the problem. The issue here is not the tactical architecture of waki-gatame - that's not what opens things up to the charge of being delusional" (should one want to make that charge). The issue is the over-all reasoning of its application - this is what exposes the whole scenario (not the waza per se) up to the charge of being "delusional."

In my opinion, anyone teaching defenses against (for example) a firearm or a knife should be trained in attacking with those weapons. And, in my experience, anyone that is trained in fighting with a firearm or a knife is never going to recommend that, first, you "stick it out in your opponent's face, nor, second, that you can deal with such an attack with waki-gatame. If these are the kind of training scenarios that Szczepan has in mind when he is raising his criticisms, then I too will have to agree with him - there's a whole lot of "self-deception" going on (only I would make the distinction between the waza itself and the training scenario).

Peter, thanks for the effort. I realize that that is more difficult to do than one might think at first. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are sort of describing what would fall under "Target Creation" - using the terms I used above.

I'll see if I can find some things that we can all look at that might make room for more of what Szczepan is saying.

dmv

Michael Varin
05-05-2005, 06:40 PM
David,

I agree that discussing what to do against armed attackers should not be taken lightly. I also agree that people trained in the use of firearms are not likely to stick them in your face. However, most people who commit crimes with firearms are not trained in their use. Often times they want something, and are hoping the gun will intimidate you enough to give it to them without having to shoot you. If you keep the line of the bore off of your body a gun cannot hurt you, and properly done rokkyo will accomplish this. Look, I'm not saying it's a desirable situation, I'm not saying it's easy or that you can't get hurt. You have to make spit second decisions sometimes. If the decision is to be shot trying to take a gun that is in my face, or getting tied up and watching my wife get raped in front of me, I would like to think that I would choose the former. I'm not trying to be paranoid, but things like this do happen.

Michael

senshincenter
05-05-2005, 09:09 PM
Hi Michael,

Thanks for the reply.

Indeed, all kinds of things happen. Moreover, one cannot REALLY say what one is likely to see and/or not see when it comes to the totality of real life situations - that is what makes real life "real life." I can concede that point here. Equally, I can agree with the fact that Rokkyo has a redundancy between its Angle of Deflection and its Angle of Deviation (meaning, you go one way in relation to the Line of Attack, the attacking object goes the other way), such that design-wise, Rokkyo is capable of keeping a firearm's line of fire off target (i.e. your body). In addition, yes, there are split decisions that have to be made. Moreover, yes, the lesser evil between risking being shot while attempting to disarm someone and my wife being raped in front of me is the former and not the latter. Nevertheless, it is a long way from all of these things to the act of systematizing one’s training curriculum responsibly – whether or not one is doing so along or for such lines.

For example, in real life, people also often throw weak strikes – strikes that are not connected to the majority of their mass, that are slow, and that are telegraphed, strikes that might actually hurt the person throwing it (e.g. at the shoulder, elbow, wrist, and fingers) more than the person they are attempting to strike with such a “weapon”. When we hear critiques against Aikido, by aikidoka and non-aikidoka alike, leveled at the way a lot of folks do Yokomenuchi (i.e. weak, telegraphed, opened, vulnerable, slow), for example, do we who take our training seriously satisfy such critiques by saying, “You know, a lot of folks are not trained to strike at someone, so actually we are training more for reality than if we were to train against someone that actually knew how to strike when we are training against such lame attacks,” or how about if we were to say, “The truth is that lame-ass strikes do happen in real life, so one cannot say we are not training realistically when we train against such weak strikes”?

While there is of course certain logic to such rebuttals, it only satisfies one part of the critique that is often raised by conscientious martial artists like Szczepan. The critique, to remind us all, after all is two-fold: First, it suggests that such training is not realistic; and second it suggests that such training leads to delusion. The logic in such replies, which for me would also include yours, does indeed satisfy the first prong. However, such rebuttals do not satisfy the second prong. Why? Because, sticking with my example, people that train against weak, slow, telegraphed strikes, strikes that are more likely to hurt the person throwing it than the person being struck, never systematize this aspect of the scenario. They only systematize the naked mis-idealized form. The “poor” of “poor form” is usually dropped from the training curriculum. One just does “the form.”

Allow me to explain: When you see folks training against weak, slow, telegraphed Yokomenuchi, or when you see folks training with Rokkyo against a knife that is stuck in your face or a firearm that is stuck in your face, you don’t see folks equally making use of the fact that they are training against something inferior, lame, or unsophisticated. You never see an instructor say, “Okay, today we are going to learn Irimi Nage against someone that strikes slowly, weakly, incorrectly, and probably has a greater chance of hurting themselves than you – let’s all practice that please.” Rather, they just do it. In addition, because the dojo and the instructor make up two aspects of a system of authority, things, particularly unsaid things, come to take on an air of authenticity. Problems arise because authenticity does not always cover 100% of reality – or at least not always the part of reality we want it to cover. In time, no one realizes that they are training for a reality that is present only when facing weak, slow, untrained attackers. In time, people come to wrongly believe (delusion) that they are training not against attacks that are possible in reality but against attacks that are authentic and thus embrace huge or important parts or all of Reality. That is the real problem here.

For me, the cycle of delusion can end in two ways: One, as teachers we can try and orient our training not toward the totality of “anything and everything can happen in reality” but rather toward those aspects of reality that lend themselves more toward a sophistication of our martial attributes and martial understanding; and/or two, as teachers, if we are going to teach something that requires that our opponent be less-trained, less-skilled, slower, weaker, less willing to commit an act of violence than we are, and/or if we are going to teach “last chance,” “do or die,” “lesser of two evil,” techniques, we should say that is exactly what we are doing. This is how delusion can be combated.

In what has to be considered a MERE two decades of training in comparison to other folks that visit this forum, I can tell you, while I have seen and practiced (in and outside of Aikido) waki-gatame against both the knife and gun in your face and against the lunging straight knife thrust to the gut, I have never once seen or heard an instructor say, “This is a do or die technique that you should only choose as the lesser two evils,” or “This is something you can do against an unskilled person who is slower and weaker than you and doesn’t really know how to attack with a firearm (or a knife).” Have you? Has anyone? I wonder how many students such an instructor would keep – or at least how many students would keep faith in such an instructor.

When my own firearms and knife training first started under my instructor, and I began to realize just what part of reality waki-gatame against a knife or gun in one’s face was dealing with, I was not too interested in it anymore. It became a topic unworthy of so much attention. Why? Because it could kind of be dealt with indirectly – by learning more about how to attack properly with a firearm and/or a knife. That is to say, as I learned more about authentic firearm and knife practices, I became more able to recognize exactly when something like a Rokkyo could become part of an authentic response. This came about by never again practicing Rokkyo against a knife or a firearm being stuck in your face – NOT by practicing it against such things. In the same way, by practicing and training against authentic Yokomenuchi, and though not training for every part of reality (which does include weak unsophisticated strikes), one can come to recognize weak strikes for what they are and address them in authentic ways. What is important is that delusion is being continually combated throughout one’s training – because it forever remains under the gaze of honesty, truth, and self-reflection (i.e. authenticity).

Yes, folks can stick a knife in your face. Yes, the lesser evil is to risk the disarm over letting a loved one be violated physically and spiritually in front of you. However, if you want to really deal with these types of situations, training against or with scenarios that are more authentic is what will allow that to happen. Though your position does not state this, it does support it, and thus warrants the caveat: One should not rely upon the fact that reality includes weak, slow, lame attacks, to legitimate one’s own practice against such things and thus to suggest that one’s own practice is authentic and free of delusion.

On the practical side – after all my knife and firearm training, were I to teach waki-gatame through such scenarios (i.e. against a knife or firearm stuck in your face), without the explicit stating of what exactly I was relying upon (i.e. a weaker, untrained, attacker), and should my deshi attempt such a thing in “real life” and get killed, though there would be no law for it, I would consider myself guilty of a crime, and, from here, I would find it impossible to live through the guilt and lack of responsibility on my part as teacher. I cannot teach such things in good conscience. There are other, more responsible ways, of introducing and cultivating the martial principles and attributes particular to waki-gatame. There are other, more responsible ways, of introducing and cultivating the marital principles and attributes particular to such possible situations that you described. This is my position.

david

ChrisHein
05-05-2005, 10:12 PM
I don't understand how you knowing how to use a weapon against a person, address's the issue of someone who doesn't know how to use a weapon attacking you. You can still be killed by an untrained assailant with a firearm. What should one do if you have a gun in your face. what technique is better?

-Chris Hein

jester
05-05-2005, 10:43 PM
Well said David, situation drills such as knife and gun defense only show principles, and not reality, but I think they are still important to learn nonetheless.

An example I can relate is this: I learned Ude-Gatame from the san kata tanto attacks, and that was my only exposure to it at the time of the story. One version I learned locks uke's wrist against your neck and shoulder and you control his arm with your arms. To me this seemed very impractical to have a knife so close to your neck, but I still had to learn it.

I got in a street altercation soon after, and when I had my back turned, a guy tried to get me in a headlock using his right arm around my neck. I didn't see him, but I felt his arm slide on the back of my neck, my subconscious must have recognized something, because i brought my left arm up behind his elbow, and we both fell to the ground. I had the lock on this guys arm, and he couldn't do anything. I got to my knees and kept the lock. I also got a tore ligament in my left knee somehow during the process.

Anyway, training drills, while unrealistic, do have a part in training. I realized that you are actually learning things that might not have anything to do with a knife or a gun attack even if you are training against them.

senshincenter
05-06-2005, 01:39 AM
I realized that you are actually learning things that might not have anything to do with a knife or a gun attack even if you are training against them.


Hi Tim,

I can agree with all you said. Especially this part I am quoting up above. However, the questions for me are, first, how many folks see through things to the level you demonstrate here, and, second, how difficult do we make it for folks to see through things to such desired-for and quite reasonable ends. Like I said, if folks that teach these things would say things like this at the onset, I would have no problem with any of this - you know - if they said: "Hey, we are going to learn this against a knife attack, but it's not very realistic or authentic in that sense. However, you will be able to gain the underlying principles nevertheless and thus you will come to find more reasonable places in which to apply this technique all on your own."

That would be great.

Hi Chris,

I think Tim gave an answer here - in that he learned one thing and applied it in a different situation. That's how. After all, it would be impossible to hold that one can or even should try to train for every specific situation directly. As long as one's training is principle-based, one can address many different situations by studying one or a even just a few. For example, one does not need to train for and/or directly experience every possible punch in order to address most probable punches and/or even punches that one has never seen - AS LONG AS ONE'S TRAINING IS PRINCIPLE-BASED. Moreover, this increases exponentially if one's training is multifaceted. For example, though one may not practice waki-gatame against a knife, it does not mean that one does not practice waki-gatame. Thus, one's skill with waki-gatame does indeed increase over the years - just through other training (i.e. against a wrist grab or a lapel grab, etc.). Combined with other skills, such as the skill of fighting with firearms and/or knives, a person thus trained can, in my opinion, more likely perform a better waki-gatame against someone sticking a knife in their face than a person that just does that technique as part of an action-reaction choreography and/or scenario.

Michael Varin
05-06-2005, 03:22 AM
David,

I basically agree with what you said. Especially about standing behind what you teach, and the importance of learning how to use a particular weapon to be able to defend against that weapon. When I teach empty hand techniques against weapons I always clearly state that it is last ditch and that arming yourself is always the better option. That is if you cannot or choose not to remove yourself from the situation. I also say your likelihood of being injured or killed is high. No one has ever quit based on this that I know of, and most of them respect me more for my honesty (especially law enforcement guys). Maybe more instructors should try it.

Here's where I disagree with you. Your comparison of firearms to punches just doesn't make sense. Train against technically correct, quick, powerful punches, because you will be able to then handle poor, weak punches. If you reverse it, and a good puncher take a shot at you you'll be in a world of hurt. On the other hand, someone who is properly trained in the use of firearms and has already decided that they have no qualms about killing you will never let you get within six feet of them before you have hot lead ripping through your body. By the way, I tell my classes this also. I shoot all the time, and I wouldn't poke, and prod people with guns or wave them in their face, but I wouldn't be robbing people either. If I drew my gun on someone, I would already have decided that any further non-compliance on their part will result in me shooting them. With that being the case, unless your technique is shooting lightning bolts out of you fingers, you are pretty much relying on them making a mistake.

Michael

senshincenter
05-06-2005, 09:02 AM
Your comparison of firearms to punches just doesn't make sense. Train against technically correct, quick, powerful punches, because you will be able to then handle poor, weak punches. If you reverse it, and a good puncher take a shot at you you'll be in a world of hurt.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for replying.

Could you explain this a bit more. In my mind, this is what I was saying about training against well-executed strikes. Not sure where the difference lies.

Thanks,
dmv

Michael Varin
05-06-2005, 07:56 PM
Hey David,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. This was the rest of my post that you quoted:

"On the other hand, someone who is properly trained in the use of firearms and has already decided that they have no qualms about killing you will never let you get within six feet of them before you have hot lead ripping through your body. By the way, I tell my classes this also. I shoot all the time, and I wouldn't poke, and prod people with guns or wave them in their face, but I wouldn't be robbing people either. If I drew my gun on someone, I would already have decided that any further non-compliance on their part will result in me shooting them. With that being the case, unless your technique is shooting lightning bolts out of you fingers, you are pretty much relying on them making a mistake."

To summarize, if someone has the drop on you with a gun and understands that distance is their friend, there's not much you can do. Certainly no empty hand techniques. My point was that with the right training bare hand techniques work against well executed strikes, but no bare hand techniques work against the proper implementation of firearms. I thought you were comparing apples to oranges.

Michael

senshincenter
05-06-2005, 08:56 PM
Michael,

Thanks for getting back to the thread.

My comparison was between authentic attacks within the realm of firearms and the realm of strikes (i.e. yokomenuchi). I was not trying to say that one could fulfill the other - only that they (all tactics) should share an authenticity as far as their own respective fields go. Basically, I was trying to suggest that if we do not accept weak yokomenuchi as part of training against strikes, we can't really accept weak or dumb firearm attacks either when we are dealing with firearm defenses - that kind of thing. Hope that makes more sense.

thanks,
d

DustinAcuff
05-06-2005, 10:34 PM
my thoughts on Rokkyo.

Ikkyo gives you alot of options...but so does rokkyo. for ex, from Ikkyo you can transfer to any technique you have except maybe some throws. From Rokkyo, you can transfer pressure to do any number of things....transfer into a sankyo, shihonage, nanakyo, ect, as well as a number of diffrent breaks and some of the advanced drops and throws. really, i cant say that Ikkyo is better than Rokkyo...one of the greatest stregnths of aiki is the fact that all the techniques can blend into one.

as to the straight punch only thing: you can do rokkyo off of a hook or a uppercut too, it isnt even more difficult, just less practiced

what it really boils down to is if you are using mushin as you should, you dont have any idea what you are going to do or how it will come about, dont belive me have your attackers come faster during multiples. you ARE more likely to preform an Ikkyo in a real situation mostly because as the first technique it is the one you have trained the most, and it is reinforced in a number of early techniques, including variations of nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, hakkyo, ect.

Ikkyo is a bread and butter technique, but who can say that when someone actually punches at you you will do Ikkyo over Rokkyo? whos to say that you wont do a kote-gaeshi where an irimi nage would have happened? it is really a moot point to argue "this technique is more effective than that one" and if done properly the pressure on rokkyo should be in the shoulder and neck instead of the elbow...honestly if someone attacks me out of the blue, i'm not going to go out of my way to hurt them, infact i'll do what i can not to, but i didnt ask them to attack me and under the law, atleast in the US, it is there problem as long as i did not deliberately hurt them.

one last though from me on rokkyo: Rokkyo is the "bow and arrow" technique, it came from mainly samurai who trained extensively in archery, and to them the motion involved was perfectly natural and i'd put money that they would preforme Rokkyo alot more frequently than Ikkyo. Use whatever is natural to you and whatever comes about, because if you are angry that you did rokkyo to an attacker and you wanted ikkyo instead and try to transition rokkyo into ikkyo (something that i find VERY difficult) then there might be one less aiki practitioner in the world.

ChrisHein
05-07-2005, 12:48 AM
I think Michael is saying that there are no realistic empty handed techniques against realistic strong firearm attacks. You would never be in range of a trained person, I'm not going to let you with in range of me if I think you're a threat, which is the only reason I would draw my firearm. I'm not playing with you if I draw a weapon. At least I think thats what he's saying.

-Chris

jester
05-07-2005, 12:39 PM
as to the straight punch only thing: you can do rokkyo off of a hook or a uppercut too, it isn't even more difficult, just less practiced.

I'd like to see how this would happen. If you have a video, gif animation etc. let me know the link. I'm not saying your wrong, I just can't envision it myself.

I'm talking about a correctly thrown hook or uppercut from someone who has been trained in boxing. Not a hook or uppercut by a fellow student that hasn't been trained correctly.

The difference is night and day between the two. Also, with the hook or uppercut, the attackers arm is real close to the attackers body, and if your to close, he will throw a cross or a good jab as a followup because you are way inside of mai-ai.

A jab, a cross and a push has the arm extending away from the body, whereas a cross and a hook has the arm bent closer to the body. The arm doesn't move all that much because the body really comes into play to create the energy transfer to the fist.

ChrisHein
05-07-2005, 12:54 PM
Have you ever tryed to do any Aikido technique off a real boxers jab or cross, I have, and it's not much more likely (I would say infact not possable).

-Chris Hein

Rupert Atkinson
05-07-2005, 07:52 PM
For rokkyo, as I already said above, in Aikikai some people do waki-gatame, many more do ude-gatame, many do neither. For me, I prefer waki-gatame. From the discussions above, it seems that some people still do not understand what waki-gatame is. Case in point - Yes: ude-gatame works ONLY on a straight arm; waki-gatame works on a straight arm too but but it also works VERY well on a slightly bent arm, which is one of the reasons it is so good, and why Judo people (that know it) refer to it as side-arm lock, and not armpit armlock as its name might suggest - it works first against the elbow sideways hinge joint (no muscles to resist it) and then against the chest to lock (or try to) out the elbow -- rather than being a direct elbow lock like ude-gatame. Or, take nikyo, then forget the hand (and nikyo) and hold the wrist in both hands. Next, concentrate on the elbow joint (uke's hand still in a nikyo little-finger-up position). The elbow bends sideways - straighten it slightly and apply pressure down - against the elbow join but sideways (you trap it against your chest - standard elbow lock position (sideways), and hold it in your armpit).

Incidentally, ude-gatame can also be done using the armpit. That video tech I commented upon above was done using the armpit, but to me it looks like ude-gatame as the palm is up (you CANNOT do waki with the palm up - little finger must be up for waki. Also, with ude-gatame you have to take uke down to the ground if that is where you want him to be (like in the video mentioned earlier - somewhere above); with waki, it works kinda like nikyo, a little tweak and uke is slammed down while tori remains standing - it is 100 times better than ude-gatame, in my opinion. Of course, you could take uke down with waki but uke wouldn't like you anymore if you did.

If you don't know what waki is, you need to find out. I don't know of any online videos at present but if searching, look on a Tomiki database as they always do waki.

After thought - I'll try to get a short video clip sorted this week to show my own slant :)

jester
05-07-2005, 11:18 PM
Have you ever tried to do any Aikido technique off a real boxers jab or cross, I have, and it's not much more likely (I would say in fact not possible).
-Chris Hein

I would say your correct. I think a jab or cross would give me a better chance of getting an off balance and a take down or throw as opposed to a hook or uppercut though. Since I never fought a real boxer, I can only speculate as to what I'd do.

Rupert, video is a good idea. Maybe you can put it in the aikikai section.

DustinAcuff
05-08-2005, 01:45 AM
Tim and Chris: no i have never tried this on a real boxer; at less than full speed it would still be in question as to if it could be done or not, at full speed there is a large risk of injury to both uke and nage. honestly, i have never had a confrentation with a trained fighter outside of practice nor would i ever want to, they pose a much higher risk than the average person of both hurting me and of me hurting them, both of which are way down on my to do lists.

the way that i have practiced is almost a Hige-garami transition into rokkyo. to say that it is impossible is flawed because say uke is significantly smaller than you, or untrained, or wearing sandals and loses his footing while making full extention; difficult or unlikely is a much better way to put it. it can happen, the offset just needs to be more pronounced and the technique flows diffrently but ends up in the same spot. personally, i doubt that i would ever use this variation in a real situation, but i train everything i can think of for the "what if"s just incase it ever happens so i know i have some technique available and dont freeze.

my post was made more on the fact that one technique is being held above the other as more effective. is ikkyo better than rokkyo? nope. would ikkyo be more likely to come into play in a real situation, yep. is rokkyo better than ikkyo, nope. what matters isnt how the interception is made, or how the technique came about, or then entrance made: it is where you end up. if the arm is not straight, by some design or fluke it can be straightened.

i'd would love to see a video section to the site and would welcome any links to sites with some good videos; i'd love to see the variations of other schools. i've heard that there are around 50 aikido schools and 3 daito ryu schools.....that makes around 53 variations possible at a minimum.

and i humbly apoligize if i am making a pain in the forum out of myself. i am seeking knowledge and trying to share what little i know based on the knowledge and experience i have. feel free to correct me at any time, odds are you have been doing this for much longer than i have.

Rupert Atkinson
05-11-2005, 12:07 AM
OK - I have a couple of clips of waki-gatame - 5 to 10MB in size. Not instructional as such - just general class-in-action stuff. Anwyay, if you want to see them, pm me your email address.

jester
05-12-2005, 09:00 AM
Thanks for the video Rupert. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting to see if Szczepan Janczuk will ever post a video clip.

He seemed the most admit that Rokkyo wouldn't work at all, and it would be nice to see what he is doing wrong, or should I say different. :freaky:

NagaBaba
05-12-2005, 10:17 PM
Thanks for the video Rupert. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting to see if Szczepan Janczuk will ever post a video clip.

He seemed the most admit that Rokkyo wouldn't work at all, and it would be nice to see what he is doing wrong, or should I say different. :freaky:
Hi Tim,
I'm not all that good in aikido, in fact I do a whole bunch of errors. But I'm very fast, and even in slow motion you will not see too much.

For Rokkyo I'm doing only irimi and atemi. Do you think irimi is wrong or atemi is wrong? Or both?

ChrisHein
05-12-2005, 11:41 PM
I once saw Szczepan Janczuk, actually, no I didn't he was too fast.

-Chris Hein

PeterR
05-12-2005, 11:47 PM
Actually I did - shared a beer togeather.

I don't like having pictures or video taken of me either even though there is some stuff out there. I don't represent the best my style of Aikido has to offer - I leave that to others.

Still Szczepan - perhaps you could find a picture of someone else doing what you mean.

Tim Gerrard
05-13-2005, 02:31 AM
Szczepan, what you're saying has an element of truth (although I've found Rokkyo to be quite effective), some people may not attack with a straight arm. But are you saying that it SHOULDN'T be practiced because it doesn't work in some situations? Techniques don't work in 100% of scenarios, when another technique could present itself, that's why you practice combinations, but to dismiss a technique as useless is absurd. Just think that if the attacker ends up in the perfect rokkyo position, you'd be cursing if you missed the opportunity.

jester
05-13-2005, 09:35 AM
Hi Tim,
I'm not all that good in aikido, in fact I do a whole bunch of errors. But I'm very fast, and even in slow motion you will not see too much.

Don't be shy. At your rank you should be quite good.

For Rokkyo I'm doing only irimi and atemi. Do you think irimi is wrong or atemi is wrong? Or both?

I don't think either is wrong as long as you can get the lock.

I know a a bunch of variations, and if I can get time, I'll make a movie clip so you can see what if what I'm doing is the same or different than you.

I'll be in Florida for a seminar in June. I don't know if you travel, but if you can make it, we can share notes.

Peter congrats on being in the 2006 aikiexpo!!

PeterR
05-13-2005, 09:39 AM
Peter congrats on being in the 2006 aikiexpo!!
Just to be clear that was a joke.

jester
05-13-2005, 09:43 AM
Ooops! It must have went over my head to!

I read it in the seminar post. Szczepan Janczuk is spreading rumors!!

PeterR
05-13-2005, 09:49 AM
:grr: