Boulder Aikikai Spring Seminar

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi All,

I would like to thank Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei and the Boulder Aikikai for sharing their spring seminar with Yukio Utada Sensei and the Doshinkan dojo. My dojo mates and I really appreciated your warm welcome and fine training. I hope that anyone I met on the mat will say hi on-line...I'm really bad with names, but I'd like to stay in contact with you all. Since my brother lives near Boulder, I hope to visit again soon.

I'd also like to thank Utada Sensei for his teaching there. I really appreciate his openness and ability. Its a privilege to study under a really forward thinking instructor.

I really enjoyed the entire seminar. I'm thinking about some new ways to do reviews besides just listing techniques and thanking folks...but I haven't come up with a format yet. If I do, I'll post it under this thread.

Best wishes to all,
Ron

[bkedelen]

Thanks for sharing your training with us Ron. It is great to have leaders like Utada Sensei and Ikeda Sensei proving that ryu is just a convention and should not prevent everyone from coming together in the spirit of Aikido.

[Dan Rubin]

"Thanks" to Utada Sensei and five of his students for travelling such a distance to train with us. And "thanks" to you, Ron, for seeing me practicing a movement as I walked to lunch, and yelling "Looks like an aikido student!" instead of "Do you need an ambulance?"

Dan

[Ron Tisdale]

:) Hey Dan! Good to know you online...What did they call that...saint vitus's dance? :)

It was good to train and eat with you. Hope to see you on the mat soon!
Best,
Ron

[Paula Lydon]

Hi Ron! Again, thanks for coming, playing and the wonderful conversation over coffee. Very much enjoyed your energy. Sorry for knocking your glasses off--twice! Get one of those sport bungies for glasses. Come by when you visit your brother and romp again!

Take care, Paula

[Ron Tisdale]

:) I should just leave the glasses off to begin with! That or keep people's hands away from my face :D

The only problem is that I can't see what the instructor is doing between training. With Ikeda Sensei that's especially so...his movements are so darn quick and small!

See ya next time!
R

[Ron Tisdale]

Say Jun, any idea of when there might be pictures available from the seminar? Or *if*....:)

Thanks,
Ron

[akiy]

It looks like pictures from the event are now available here (http://www.boulderaikikai.org/index.php?set_albumName=2005-spring&option=com_gallery&Itemid=39&include=view_album.php)...

-- Jun

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey, good shots again! How do you stay so consistant?

Thanks,
Ron

[NagaBaba]

Hi Ron,
What is the name of this deadly technique? :D

http://www.boulderaikikai.org/albums/2005-spring-misc/misc07.jpg

Looks like uke hit you on your back? :p or is he going to choke you? :eek:

[Ron Tisdale]

He definately hit me on my back... :)

It was training in a method of stepping in and guiding uke over as you turn. As opposed to an ukenegashi idea. I wasn't very good at it though. :) You weren't supposed to actually have to make much contact with uke. This:

http://www.boulderaikikai.org/albums/2005-spring-utada/utada08.thumb.jpg

is what it was supposed to look like!

RT

[NagaBaba]

He definately hit me on my back... :)

It was training in a method of stepping in and guiding uke over as you turn. As opposed to an ukenegashi idea. I wasn't very good at it though. :) You weren't supposed to actually have to make much contact with uke. This:

http://www.boulderaikikai.org/albums/2005-spring-utada/utada08.thumb.jpg

is what it was supposed to look like!

RT
.....hmhmh.......looks like he put down other knee, non? ;)

Anyway, it is very strange idea for me to turn my back to attacker :dead: with exception, when attacker is completly locked evileyes :)
where is your martial spirit, O! Yoshinkan fighters ???? :p

[bkedelen]

I think the lesson here is when you are at a seminar with two world renowned instructors, rather than attempt to do the techniques they demonstrate, you should be trying to do techniques a guy named "Szczepan" recommended on an internet forum.

[NagaBaba]

Benjamin,
Major congrats, you prononced my first name absolutly correctly! :D You are kind of exception in last few years. See Ron? It is possible!!! ;)

How about some nice technical discussion about this technique...or should I say, exercise? Why nage turns his back to attacker?

[Don_Modesto]

I think the lesson here is when you are at a seminar with two world renowned instructors, rather than attempt to do the techniques they demonstrate, you should be trying to do techniques a guy named "Szczepan" recommended on an internet forum.

Yeah, Benjamin!

Ha!

Go get him!

[Ron Tisdale]

If you really want a technical discussion, drop the sarcasm, and we can discuss.

RT

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Ben,

What did you think about that technique? I found that with proper movement and timing, uke didn't have the openings I showed in that first picture. Do you agree?

Ron

[NagaBaba]

If you really want a technical discussion, drop the sarcasm, and we can discuss.

RT
Sorry Ron, didn't mean to offend you :o

[Ron Tisdale]

No problem. I think the point of the exercise was to match with uke so precisely that their balance was taken and they didn't have an opportunity to do anything but take the fall. In atuallity, I think that would only work with someone whose abillity is much less than your own, or if you got really lucky. So you had people grabing the arm, locking (as you mentioned) before the turn, etc. When doing what we call 'aikinage' we usually use both arms for the throw, which gives you the abillity to lock the arm and enforce the throw. Utada Sensei specifically asked us to try the throw without that, so we could focus on the timing aspects.

And if you look at all the pictures, you might notice that I did get my feet right, at least once... :)

Best,
Ron

[bkedelen]

When Utada Sensei performed the technique, there were no openings for uke to attack Utada Sensei's back. In order to learn any technique, a student must first make all of the mistakes associated with that technique, in this case exposing his/her back. I personally made every mistake displayed in the referenced picture (and many more) when we were trying this technique. If everyone has to be afraid that a picture of them trying a technique and not perfectly executing it might appear on the Internet, leading to them and their entire style being ridiculed, then they will not be able to make the necessary mistakes to really learn the technique. It appalls me that someone would post a picture of a well respected forum member's technique and disparage them.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Ben,

I don't have a problem with the picture being posted...we all have to laugh at ourselves a bit, even if its in public sometimes. :) I had a little more of a problem when he continued in that vein, even after I acknowledged my poor performance, and proceeded to insult the yoshinkan. But hey, to each his own. And I'm now in pretty good company...Szczepan also found holes in Ikeda Sensei's technique which he posted to aikido journal. Even though I don't in any way deserve to be in Ikeda Sensei's league.

Szczepan, if you want to continue to discuss the exercise, technique, whatever, please do. I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Best,
Ron

[Don_Modesto]

I think the point of the exercise was to match with uke so precisely that their balance was taken and they didn't have an opportunity to do anything but take the fall. In atuallity, I think that would only work with someone whose abillity is much less than your own, or if you got really lucky. So you had people grabing the arm, locking (as you mentioned) before the turn, etc.

Yeah. This is a tough one. It's one of those I practice with the hope of dividends in the future, but no thought of actually making it work now. I've had folks wrap themselves around me too many times on it. Can't seem to get this timing down.

I'm always nervous going into UKE's live side anyway; it takes exquisite timing.

[Don_Modesto]

When Utada Sensei performed the technique, there were no openings for uke to attack Utada Sensei's back. In order to learn any technique, a student must first make all of the mistakes associated with that technique, in this case exposing his/her back.
Yes. I think mistakes are critical to learning and necessary.
If everyone has to be afraid that a picture of them trying a technique and not perfectly executing it might appear on the Internet, leading to them and their entire style being ridiculed, then they will not be able to make the necessary mistakes to really learn the technique.Szcp,etc. is a curmudgeon, but he often makes good points (in ways not always amusing to his victims. It's amusing, too, when a swatter appears for that gadfly.) Interestingly, he has yet to post pics of himself. Modesty, no doubt (which Thoreau took to be no more than honesty in most folks...)

A balance to our own self-consciousness is taking a hard look at the SHIHAN. No one wants to be that "presumptuous", but SHIHAN are human, too, and they screw up, too, and sometimes in international demos, too. If we see their mistakes sans rose-colored glasses, we can countenance our own better--"We do not credit clever men with their follies. What a loss of human rights!" Friedrich Nietzsche in Beyone Good and Evil, # 178

Stimulating exchange. Thanks, all.

[bkedelen]

I do not think anyone, Ikeda sensei included, minds having their hip/knee/hand positions discussed on an open forum. If people here were not allowed to disagree, be controversial, and even change their minds, this forum would be sterile. Nevertheless, there is an unspoken agreement on this forum that no individual's or organization's martial spirit should be ridiculed. The very purpose of the seminar where the relevant pictures were taken was for all attendees to examine another side of Aikido, which is always an awkward procedure. Having your martial spirit challenged and forced to grow is the job of your teacher, not recalcitrant message board lurkers who obfuscate their identities, locations, and affiliations.

[NagaBaba]

Utada Sensei specifically asked us to try the throw without that, so we could focus on the timing aspects.
that's why I asked if it was rather an exercise then a technique?
in any case, I don't do it very often. I believe it must be an element of surprise/illusion to make work timing. One day Sugano sensei asked us to do ikkyo omote few times and suddenly switch to this kind of aikinage. But attacker must be sure that nage will do ikkyo(that's illusion part - must be created by nage) and must give solid, well balanced attack, not overextending at all.
I think the spirit of this "technique" is very similar to legs takedown. Nage must create a kind of "black hole" and disappear under knees of attacker. If this is true, so nage must change his position during throw, by going back after turning and to "cut" knees of attacker with his body.


And if you look at all the pictures, you might notice that I did get my feet right, at least once... :)

Best,
Ron
Please don't take it personally :o :o I know you many years and respect you a lot. Because of this respect I'd like to discuss with you such difficult techniques :D

[NagaBaba]

Szcp,etc. is a curmudgeon.
thanx Don, I knew, you are my best friend :D
S.(back to work on my own curmudgeoning )

[NagaBaba]

Nevertheless, there is an unspoken agreement on this forum that no individual's or organization's martial spirit should be ridiculed.
I'm VERY surprised to hear it, I gave some technical opinion, and expression "Yoshinkan fighters" was for teasing Ron. We all know well, that Yoshinkan doesn't teach fighting ;)

Sorry for misunderstanding.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hello Ron,

I don't like discussing techniques on a website, because techniques are best taught, hence explained, by showing (in my conservative opinion).

Two questions: Was the attack shoumen-uchi? Was the blending with uke's attack supposed to be linear or circular?

Have you tried the technique with uke attacking with a bokken?

Best regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Peter,

The attack was shomenuchi, in the cutting forward and down style, not the cutting forward only style you sometimes see. The technique seemed to be both linear and circular...linear in the intial entry into uke's space, circular in that you body changed to what would now be the back knee down, circular again in the way you matched uke's arm and cut out and down.

I have tried similar techniques when uke attacks with a bokken...it does liven things up a bit, and it also seems uke extends more...there is a wider distance for them to cover and shite can take advantage of that. In the technique in question, it was interesting in trying to deal with many different body types and attacks. We weren't dealing with one uke...it was hikari geiko, so you had a line of about 10 or so attackers, and had to adjust to each attack accordingly. I also found it distracting not to be sure of the ukemi level of each attacker...there were a few people who might not have liked the rough rider version of the throw. :hypno:

Hi Szczepan,

I agree with your latest assessment...surprise and a very commited uke make the technique/exercise work...and the same with what you called leg takedown. I've found that lifting my balance to the point where my shoulders rise is a good setup for that throw...uke see you go up, they go up, and then you enter into the hole they leave. Of course, if they don't respond as expected, you are kind of open to a whole bunch of things, the easiest being a simple thrust kick. :) As they say, timing is everything.

Best,
Ron

[Don_Modesto]

thanx Don, I knew, you are my best friend :D
S.(back to work on my own curmudgeoning )

:D

[Don_Modesto]

I don't like discussing techniques on a website, because techniques are best taught, hence explained, by showing (in my conservative opinion).

FWIW, your online comments have helped my tehcnique several times directly and also given me grist for experimentation in training. Thanks for the discussion despite your antipathy for it.

[Ron Tisdale]

I agree Don, Peter's comments are always gold to me. I've noticed that he prefers to just ask questions and let me reason out where he is going...it doesn't always work on me, but when it does, it really helps!

Say Don, isn't there a throw in nikajo that does a strong lock (ippondori style) then releases the lock and throws to the rear at the same time? I think I remember practising that with Kondo Sensei the last time I saw him in Maryland.

Thanks all,
Ron

[Peter Goldsbury]

I agree Don, Peter's comments are always gold to me. I've noticed that he prefers to just ask questions and let me reason out where he is going...it doesn't always work on me, but when it does, it really helps!

Thanks all,
Ron

Actually, Ron, I had a whole post written out, then I scrapped it (as I often do in forums such as these). The post dealt with three issues germane to this waza: the need for the back hole, as Sczcepan intimated; the difficulty of creating this black hole with an attacker where the arc of the attack is not controlled by tori--such control is (potentially) in place where the waza is a henka-waza from 1-kyo, as Sczcepan also intimated. There was also something on the importance of correct irimi, as Ellis A understands this. So I was actually almost repeating what others have already stated or thought.

I asked the question about circular movement because I have seen the waza done in two slightly different ways, which in my opinion have an influence on maai. In one way, the general aim is to send uke in the direction in which he/she was coming to begin with. In the other way, the aim is to lead uke in a circle (a spiral, actually), where he/she ends up going in a different direction. The first way is favoured by people like Hiroshi Tada (and Mitsunari Kanai, from what I remember when I trained in the US. The second way is favoured by people who trained in the old Osaka Aikikai (Bansen Tanaka and perhaps H Kobayashi.

I have regularly trained here with people from Osaka who were contemporaies of K Chiba, when he was a deshi, and I found the differences striking.

Best regards,

[NagaBaba]

In the other way, the aim is to lead uke in a circle (a spiral, actually), where he/she ends up going in a different direction.
without locking arm of attacker? :confused: :eek: Isn't it against a law of Nature? :D

[Don_Modesto]

Say Don, isn't there a throw in nikajo that does a strong lock (ippondori style) then releases the lock and throws to the rear at the same time? I think I remember practising that with Kondo Sensei the last time I saw him in Maryland.

KATA GURUMA perhaps? ...but it's to NAGE's rear; he has to pivot. Killer technique to execute. Seems like what's been discussed here.

There's also HIKI OTOSHI which locks UKE's elbow from YOKOMENUCHI (Juan came back from Japan calling it KESA GIRI) and ending in much the position you're in in the pic above.

Hope this helps.

[bkedelen]

Peter: I do the same thing. I actually think Aikiweb does more for me by giving me a chance to write all of my frustration out and then discard it before I expose my retardation to the world. I am sure without this interface I would explode in the real world and end up taking a nice car ride with the men in the white lab coats.

[Peter Goldsbury]

without locking arm of attacker? :confused: :eek: Isn't it against a law of Nature? :D

Hello, Szczepan,

I'm not really into laws of nature and you know yourself that there are various ways you can intercept a shoumen attack, even when done with a bokken.

However, when I trained with my friends from the Osaka Aikikai, they told me that my attack was not correct, which I took to mean that it would not allow them to do the technique. I have no idea whether they were representative, since I have heard some veery good thingas about Hirokazu Kobayashi.

PS. 1 The thread on rokkyo is evidence for me why discussing the finer points of technique is rather pointless. As I stated there, Kanai Sensei did this technique relatively often and called it Rokkyo. I had trained previously with Chiba Sensei in London and never heard of this technique (but I was a beginner). After coming to live in Japan, I attended a seminar in the US and Kanai Sensei demonstrated this technique and emphasized the ukemi required when the technique was put on hard.

PS. 2 For those who know the history of the NE Aikikai, my partner on this occasion was Fred Newcombe--and he confessed that he hated both technique and ukemi required.

Aaah, those were the days!!

Best regards,

[Peter Goldsbury]

Peter: I do the same thing. I actually think Aikiweb does more for me by giving me a chance to write all of my frustration out and then discard it before I expose my retardation to the world. I am sure without this interface I would explode in the real world and end up taking a nice car ride with the men in the white lab coats.

Hello Benjamin,

The software Jun uses is now more user-friendly, so I no longer have to make my posts in Word and then cut & paste them, though I still do this occasionally.

If we are discussing waza, there is (a) the problem of names: which names are correct and the power of names in determining the waza, which is not what the Founder intended. He simply did the techniques and those most in need of remembering, he numbered the techniques from 1 onwards and also used terms like 'irimi'.

There is also (b) the problem of describing the technique in the absence of a tatami or street, where you can show. Describing techniques becomes something like describing an activity like walking or running. Once, I asked my language students to explain to the average Martian, who had just arrived on earth and had no arms or legs, about bicycles and how to ride them. Their efforts were sometimes brilliant but often hilarious.

Best regards,

[NagaBaba]

Hello, Szczepan,

I'm not really into laws of nature and you know yourself that there are various ways you can intercept a shoumen attack, even when done with a bokken.

However, when I trained with my friends from the Osaka Aikikai, they told me that my attack was not correct, which I took to mean that it would not allow them to do the technique. I have no idea whether they were representative, since I have heard some veery good thingas about Hirokazu Kobayashi.

Best regards,
I have many friends in Europe who follow different styles with roots in H.Kobayashi teaching. Very interesting approach, indeed. However, all of them, they have tendency to put uke's work in tight box. If uke's behavior is different, they have great difficulty to do anything. It wasn't a case of H.Kobayashi, I had fantastic opportunities to practice with him on many seminars in France, Belgium and Holland, and he never told me that my attack is wrong, only throwed me, and I had to fly few meters, wow!. evileyes evileyes evileyes :D

I think in generally, that more one's aikido is personalized less uke's work is spontaneous. That situation favors development of aikido poor technically. So if somebody tell me that my attack isn't correct, it raise red flag in my mind. One day one young shihan from Hombu told me so. I said to myself: oopps, very limited aikido……. :( :eek:

Kanai Sensei demonstrated this technique and emphasized the ukemi required when the technique was put on hard.
yep, we do like he taught, and I learned well how to protect my elbows. Sensei did amazing things with this technique.

But still, nage must be very careful; with traditional way of practice (simple, prearranged, relatively slow attacks) it is very easy to make this technique work. That’s how ppl build illusions about big efficiency of this technique.