Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

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[Mike Sigman]

I've been reading "Aikido Shugyo" ( http://www.shindokanbooks.com/shugyo.shtml ) and find it one of the best Aikido books I've ever read. The caveat I would make is that I wouldn't have fully understood it earlier in my career... i.e., there are a lot of comments in the book that sound innocuous but which are meaningful if you already understand what he's (Shioda) talking about.

I would suggest without reservation that it's a book everyone doing Aikido, regardless of style, would benefit from reading.

The one point that I'd make is that Shioda, in his systemitized way, is focusing on "ki" things just as much as Tohei does. Shioda breaks his approach to ki down into components and he refers to ki as a "balance" of the factors that he names. As noted in a previous post, when Shioda's *books* are *translated* (that's the problem, the translation) to say "Ki is about balance" or "Ki is the concentration of balance", that's actually an incorrect and misleading translation... he means that it is a balance of several different powers and focuses.

I've watched Shioda on a videotape ("Shingi Denju") and it appears that he at some time did a focused study on the use of paths and power applications using kokyu ryoku (in fact, you can see him indicate the full paths several times, using his finger). I was quite impressed with the sophistication and automatic usage of kokyu paths that he showed in instantaneous movement against an opponent's "empty" directions... he was good. (I have to caveat here that some of his demonstrations are really clever and enlightening, but they wouldn't really work without a cooperative student... but that's the nature of some demonstrations, isn't it?).

Shioda's breakdown of the factors of "ki" is quite clever and gives me a new perspective about thought approaches to the subject, but I also have to comment that his explications are not complete enough to allow someone to just read and understand. In fact, looking at the video of his interaction with students during the demonstration I was commenting on above, I'd say that although he was clearer than anyone I've seen, he wasn't clear enough for some of his students to do exactly what he was doing or to even get the basic idea correct. It would be interesting to see what command of kokyu some of the higher dans in Yoshinkan have... it is, as Shioda noted in his book, an easy skill to lose from the martial arts because it it hard to transmit.

Anyway... I'd recommend the book to everyone. It's a lot about "ki", as are Tohei's interesting books, but it explains more things about ki and Aikido than Tohei's books do. In other words, all these books supplement your overall knowledge of the big picture, but this one is a really good book and has some good discussion topics in it.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Ron Tisdale]

I really like this book myself. In light of some of our recent conversations, I'll reread it again (I've got a plane ride comming up, so I should have some reading time).

You've mentioned several times that you would like to feel some of Shioda's top students. I'd like to extend an invitation again to come to Philadelphia...

21 (Fri) 6:30pm-7:30pm
7:30pm-8:30pm Semi-private workshops
w/ Inoue Yoshinkan Kancho
22 (Sat) 9:00am-10:00am
22 (Sat) 10:30am-11:30am
11:30am-12:30pm
1:30pm-2:30pm
2:30pm-3:30pm Inoue Yoshinkan Kancho
23 (Sun) 9:00am-10:00am Semi-private workshops
w/ Inoue Yoshinkan Kancho
23 (Sun) 10:30am-11:30am
11:30am-12:30pm Inoue Yoshinkan Kancho

Info may be found at www.yoshinkai.org

Best,
Ron

[John Boswell]

I LOVED the book! I don't read a whole lot, but I got it and couldn't put it down. We've passed it around to a few students in my class and I think Riggs Sensei has my copy of it now. (need to get it back)

It is well worth reading and re-reading. A lot of good information, both on ki and on atemi.

Thanks for the review!

[akiy]

Yup, good book. I read it in the original Japanese a while back.

-- Jun

[Ron Tisdale]

As noted in a previous post, when Shioda's *books* are *translated* (that's the problem, the translation) to say "Ki is about balance" or "Ki is the concentration of balance", that's actually an incorrect and misleading translation... he means that it is a balance of several different powers and focuses.

Hi Jun,

Do you have any comments about the above? I'd be interested in hearing a native speaker's viewpoint on the statements by Shioda Sensei on the different powers (centerline power, focus power, breath power, ki power, etc.). Especially as it pertains to this statement and statements like it:

Ki is the mastery of balance

In aikido we often use the work 'ki', or energy, but this word covers a variety of meanings. "Ki" as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the hightst state of perfect balance. It might be said that 'ki' is the 'mastery of balance'.

From Total Aikido by Gozo Shioda

Thanks, Ron

[Mike Sigman]

I really like this book myself. In light of some of our recent conversations, I'll reread it again (I've got a plane ride comming up, so I should have some reading time). Don't let those lips get tired or wear out the tip of that finger, Ron. ;)

I really think there's a huge amount of useable information in that book and a lot of items about O-Sensei that are interesting, particularly for someone trying to get a good start on the art.... although of course the main criterion for good training is to have a good teacher who is willing to show you more than just techniques, choreography, and rituals. You've mentioned several times that you would like to feel some of Shioda's top students. I'd like to extend an invitation again to come to Philadelphia... Thanks, Ron. Maybe someday. I essentially want to feel their skill level in ki and kokyu and that won't take but a moment.

Shioda's skill is very good, but it is more in what I would call "kokyu" than the full "ki" skills. Tohei's stuff, from what I can see of it, includes some kokyu and some ki, although the useable kokyu things *that I've seen* don't appear to be as sophisticated as Shioda's that I could see on that video "Shingi Denju".

Also, although I appreciate Shioda's comments on timing in order to achieve power, I'd observe that it's very true that timing is tremendously important as an additive to your power, but the big-dog Chens from Chen Village can let you grab them around the chest with both arms and break your bones with a shake. When they release power even on a simple punch, they shake a whole house (now you see the fixation so many of us have with trying to figure out the training methods of Chen's Taiji). I.e., the point I'm making is that I'm very impressed with what Shioda can do, but I still look at all abilities of any person within the context of all martial arts that I've been able to practice or investigate. I think you'd enjoy meeting Wang Hai Jun (sort of a youngish man, not one of the big-dogs) the next time he comes to Philly. The levels of these particular ki skills we're talking about can be appreciated better if you get input from all available sources, IMO.

Regards,

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Do you have any comments about the above? I'd be interested in hearing a native speaker's viewpoint on the statements by Shioda Sensei on the different powers (centerline power, focus power, breath power, ki power, etc.). Especially as it pertains to this statement and statements like it:

Ki is the mastery of balance

In aikido we often use the work 'ki', or energy, but this word covers a variety of meanings. "Ki" as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the hightst state of perfect balance. It might be said that 'ki' is the 'mastery of balance'.

Thanks, Ron

Just to clarify, Ron, notice that the heading says "Ki is the mastery of balance". In the normal English usage that immediately leads a not-too-careful reader into the idea that Ki is the mastery of stability or equilibrium. The text below, though, elucidates that the "balance" is actually a "balance of skills". In my opinion, the translation for the paragraph heading should have been "Ki is the mastery of a balance of physical skills".

FWIW

Mike

[AikiSean!]

Another interesting thing I found about the book was that Shioda says he was an athiest. I know a lot of people have their reservations with ki being spirtual and such, but shioda really points out that its not.

[Ron Tisdale]

I understand what you are saying, but what I'm trying to do is get the take of a native speaker...do you speak japanese? If so, have you read the original? I don't speak more than dojo japanese myself, and don't read even that (in kanji), so I'm trying to get to the heart of the matter.

Even in the translation, it is obvious that he is talking about combining all of the powers mentioned before...

Thanks,
Ron

[Mike Sigman]

Even in the translation, it is obvious that he is talking about combining all of the powers mentioned before... Well, I'm mainly talking about the translation of the subject header, Ron, because it's confusing. If you'll remember, you yourself quoted "ki is the mastery of balance" before when we were discussing this and you apparently went and looked it up that evening... you had only remembered that part about ki and balance. I.e., "Ki is the mastery of balance" is the confusing part to many people. :)

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Another interesting thing I found about the book was that Shioda says he was an athiest. I know a lot of people have their reservations with ki being spirtual and such, but shioda really points out that its not. Both Shioda and Tohei are clear in the point that these skills are the results of physical laws and not anything to do with religion. I believe Tohei mentions that O-Sensei attributed ki and kokyu skills to the "gods", but Tohei rhetorically shrugs that approach off as being unnecessary.

Regards,

Mike

[akiy]

Do you have any comments about the above? I'd be interested in hearing a native speaker's viewpoint on the statements by Shioda Sensei on the different powers (centerline power, focus power, breath power, ki power, etc.).
Let me see if I can find the book at home. It may have been one I borrowed from my instructor.

In the meantime, perhaps folks like Peter Goldsbury or Chris Li might have some time to take a look?

-- Jun

[Ron Tisdale]

you had only remembered that part about ki and balance.

Ah, not quite, I remembered both that and the different powers coming together. But our conversations may be leading me in a slightly different direction, which is good...

Ron

[Mike Sigman]

Ah, not quite, I remembered both that and the different powers coming together. But our conversations may be leading me in a slightly different direction, which is good.. Speaking of different directions, I found a number of comments by Shioda that describe things in ways I would not necessarily describe them, but I know pretty much what he's talking about. It's like an observation I've tried to make a couple of times... there is a certain logic to these things, particularly in regard to the basic principles. So if two people are using different terminology but they understand the basic principles, there should be a fairly quick arrival at a common dialogue.

Tohei's ki tests, etc., are pretty much in line with common ki/qi things, but from what I've seen they seem to be at a fairly basic level (which is, of course, a good level from which to start people). Because I've been able to observe Shioda on DVD and read his far more explicative thoughts on how things work, I have a lot better idea about what he did, how he moved, etc. As I said, I have to re-think my ideas about how sophisticated the Japanese understanding of ki and kokyu things are, but I'd reaffirm my opinion that the kokyu seen in Aikido is what I would call "linear" (even if it's used circularly at times) and everything appears to have evolved from Shaolin-type use of qi and jin (of course, quotations from O-Sensei pretty much confirm that impression).

But to get to the point I want to make from the background in the above paragraph, it is my *impression* that the ki usage in Tohei shows in his ki tests was pretty much understood by Shioda. Of course the use of "focused power" by Shioda means that he could easily have withstood the pushes, etc., just as the ki tests show. The question would have been some of the techniques that cause the body to "connect" within itself.... and Shioda refers to a way the body "locks" (see pages 85-86 in "Aikido Shugyo") which sounds like the same idea, as Shioda describes it. The general point I'm making once again is that although there are variations, I don't see any real difference between the Aikido that Tohei himself did and the Aikido that Shioda did. Nor do I see anything but confirmation about how important these ki and kokyu skills are to the practice of Aikido. My opinion, of course.

FWIW

Mike

[James Young]

Although I haven't read Aikido Shugyo yet, from watching videos of Shioda-sensei I'd agree with Mike that I believe he had a mastery level of kokyu. One example that comes to mind is on a couple of videos I remember watching Shioda-sensei do randori and there would be instances where he would turn his back to his attacker and when the attacker's hands reached his back (shoulder blade area) he would throw them or repel them back with a slight movement of his back. I wouldn't be surprised if I could talk to those ukes that they would say the power in that throw was much more powerful than seemingly appears by just that visible slight movement of his back. To do something like that effectively not only requires superb timing but also the ability to connect with an attacker in that moment and then throw them with kokyu power. This leads me to believe Shioda-sensei probably knew how to move and manifest kokyu power (or ki power if you prefer) around his body, at least in this case the upper back, and then use it effectively. Of course it's hard to be sure without being the uke yourself, but that's my opinion based on what I've seen.

[Lan Powers]

[QUOTE=Mike Sigman]Both Shioda and Tohei are clear in the point that these skills are the results of physical laws and not anything to do with religion. (/QUOTE)

One of my instructors oft repeated sayings is that Ki is (to him) mostly good biomechanics.
Effective use of the proper form makes SUCH sense.
I am not sure about any other "purely energy" non-physical form.

Open to the idea though..shrug
Lan

[Peter Goldsbury]

Let me see if I can find the book at home. It may have been one I borrowed from my instructor.

In the meantime, perhaps folks like Peter Goldsbury or Chris Li might have some time to take a look?

-- Jun

Hello Jun,

I only have the Japanese original. I did read the English translation when I was in Holland recently, but I did not have the Japanese text with me then, so I could not evaluate the translation. The English text reads very well and I read the entire book in a couple of hours, but my suspicion is that this is the result of fairly heavy editing

The section heading in question (on p.129 of the Japanese text), reads "Ki to wa baransu no kesshuu". (Ki is the concentration/marshalling together of [the elements of] balance]). "Baransu" is written in katakana and is the Japanese version of "balance". Notice that there is no talk of kuzushi.

A little further on, on p.130, we have: "watashi wa, ki to wa baransu no kesshuu" da to kangaete imasu." (My thinking is that ki is the concentration/marshalling together of [the elements of] balance).

"Tadashii shinsei to kokyuu, sore ni shuuchuuryoku kara umareta bakuhatsu ryoku." (The explosive power which is created from the concentrated power of correct posture and breathing. Literally: Correct posture and breath: added to this the explosive force of the concentrated power [of these]).

"Chuushinsen no chikara mo sou dashi, taimingu mo ki no naka ni irete ii to omoimasu." (The strength of the centre line is also produced in this way. I think it good to include also timing within ki).

There is then a detailed discussion of the concept in terms of the entire encounter between oneself and one's partner.

Best regards,

[Ron Tisdale]

I wouldn't be surprised if I could talk to those ukes that they would say the power in that throw was much more powerful than seemingly appears by just that visible slight movement of his back.

I spoke to one of his uke about this, Chida Sensei, the current chief instructor at the yoshinkan hombu dojo. He told me that he went around with the dogi patch from Shioda Kancho's back imprinted on his chin for about a week from one of those throws. They were VERY powerful...

Ron

[Mike Sigman]

[snipsky] The section heading in question (on p.129 of the Japanese text), reads "Ki to wa baransu no kesshuu". (Ki is the concentration/marshalling together of [the elements of] balance]). "Baransu" is written in katakana and is the Japanese version of "balance". Notice that there is no talk of kuzushi.

A little further on, on p.130, we have: "watashi wa, ki to wa baransu no kesshuu" da to kangaete imasu." (My thinking is that ki is the concentration/marshalling together of [the elements of] balance).

"Tadashii shinsei to kokyuu, sore ni shuuchuuryoku kara umareta bakuhatsu ryoku." (The explosive power which is created from the concentrated power of correct posture and breathing. Literally: Correct posture and breath: added to this the explosive force of the concentrated power [of these]).

"Chuushinsen no chikara mo sou dashi, taimingu mo ki no naka ni irete ii to omoimasu." (The strength of the centre line is also produced in this way. I think it good to include also timing within ki). [snip again] Thanks for the quotes from the original text, Peter. The point is pretty clear that "balance" is being idiomatically used to indicate a balance or admixture of factors, not equilibrium or stability. As is usual, the description may be accurate, but the actual "how" is not very clear.

Shioda is using "ki" in a very narrow sense of power/force, in this particular description and "breathing" can actually mean several things, as he uses it. It's a puzzle what he's saying precisely, but the general drift isn't that hard to grasp.

There are things he obviously doesn't say in his descriptions. Watching his use of downward kokyu on DVD, it's obvious that he doesn't tell all the ways that he trains, but it's clear that he's spent a fair amount of time doing standing postures and practicing some of the things he personally uses. Probably he shared most of these things with his senior students. I'd be interested to see if Shioda ever talks more about breathing or kamae in other sources. Does anyone have any more good sources?

Ron, I can't comment on the levels of power Shioda generated, based on an account from a student. As I've mentioned before, I was a little frustrated that Shioda's students were a little dramatic in their reactions to his techniques... something that always obscures exactly what's happening, but you have to live with the dramatics whenever you're involved with Asian martial arts and demonstrations, so I'm sort of neutral about it.

In terms of striking with the back, it's not very hard to do in comparison with striking with the chest or some other areas. The question is what kind of additive factors you add to your chain of power in the strike. The back offers its own additive factor that other body areas don't have and it can be fairly powerful even if you don't have any ki or if you don't have the skills to slip in some of the power boosters. If someone is interested in how to start training (without the ki and boosters), I'll try to describe it.

What's interesting is that we're looking at power generation techniques in Aikido... a surprise. A second interesting point is to read some of Shioda's descriptions of what O-Sensei could do with his ki abilities. I had underestimated (based on the information available to me) the amount of ki things in Aikido, previously. However, if I underestimated the amount of ki things used by O-Sensei et al, that only reinforces the point that most people doing Aikido are missing out on the contribution of ki-training to Aikido.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[crbateman]

Just wanted to inject a word about the English translation. The translators, Jaques Payet Sensei and Christopher Watson Sensei, who are "western", but both longtime devotees of Yoshinkan, state at the outset of the book that the translation is not word-for-word, but has instead been enhanced to make it easier for "westerners" to understand. The translation originally began as seperate projects by Payet and Watson, but then became a collaboration. It was done after Shioda Kancho's death, so there was no oversight by him personally, although the translation was endorsed by Kyoichi Inoue Sensei. Like most of you who have posted here, I would be interested to know from native speakers how much liberty was taken with the original wording.

[Mike Sigman]

Just wanted to inject a word about the English translation. The translators, Jaques Payet Sensei and Christopher Watson Sensei, who are "western", but both longtime devotees of Yoshinkan, state at the outset of the book that the translation is not word-for-word, but has instead been enhanced to make it easier for "westerners" to understand. The problem with translations is that problems always arise. Take for example one of the most significant errors in translating that has affected so many people and their studies, "jin". "Jin" is essentially what "kokyu" is, although there is a slightly enhanced meaning to "kokyu". Jin is a skill, as is kokyu, but out of the possible translations of "jin", the earlier translators chose the word "energy". It was the start of the "energy" revolution for the New Age. Combine "energy" with "ki" and you have the basis for a quasi-religion, as we've all seen.

Another case, but more to the point of what I'm trying to say is in this example: I once invited a teacher in to do teach (just an overview) a spear form that I'd heard about but never seen. He brought his wife with and she was a brilliant (PhD in Chemistry) native Chinese who had been raised in a martial-arts village; she spoke very fluent English and he spoke almost none. I happened to have found a copy of all the posture names in another place and I wanted to use them as a handout for the class. I asked the woman if she would translate the names from the Chinese into English. She tried for over a day to do it and gave me her best effort but told me she was not really able to do it because even though the characters and words were literally translatable, the actual meaning was something quited different to martial artists. I took the list to another Chinese who had studied martial arts his whole life and who also spoke fluent, idiomatic English... he translated it pretty quickly but cautioned me to never ask even a native speaker to understand the nuances that are meant in a martial context because the subtle changes in meaning can completely alter the meaning of the words.

Over the years, I've found that many martial-arts *basics* that were mistranslated into English by fluent speakers who have lived in a country, etc., were wrong. I'm not pointing any fingers (particularly not at the generous people who have taken the time to provide us translations), I'm pointing out an area where I'm always very cautious. Take a simple example... does "shihonage" mean "four-direction throw" as it is literally translated (even in many books), or does the phrase "any-direction throw" more adequately convey the original sense? Some translators' versions are different than other translators' versions and sometimes all these versions are different from the idiomatic sense of the word.

FWIW

Mike

[Peter Goldsbury]

Just wanted to inject a word about the English translation. The translators, Jaques Payet Sensei and Christopher Watson Sensei, who are "western", but both longtime devotees of Yoshinkan, state at the outset of the book that the translation is not word-for-word, but has instead been enhanced to make it easier for "westerners" to understand. The translation originally began as seperate projects by Payet and Watson, but then became a collaboration. It was done after Shioda Kancho's death, so there was no oversight by him personally, although the translation was endorsed by Kyoichi Inoue Sensei. Like most of you who have posted here, I would be interested to know from native speakers how much liberty was taken with the original wording.

Mr Bateman,

Thank you for your mail.

In this website, as in the AJ website and E-Budo website, there are so many isues where the western translators have to take liberties with the Japanese original that I now always want to to give the original Japanese text, with a litteral tranlation, so that people may judge for themselves both the text and my own translation skills.

In this case, I believe that the translators took liberties with the best of intentions, but I also believe that they themselves may have taken liberties with the concept of "making it easier for westerners to understand" and perhaps 'edited' the text unduly.

In my opinion Japanese native speakers are not in a position to pronounce on the liberties taken with the translation from Japanese into English, unless they are truly bilingual.

So, I myself am in the position of being able to translate Japanese to English and have the sense of an English native speaker of what translation "fits" the English language, but not the other way round.

So I am not attacking the translation here (at least, I do not think so). However, I think that the English translation does not do what Mike Sigman expects from it. For this, I think you would need a critical translation, in the style of the German translations from ancient Greek texts in the 18th century, witrh a full apparatus criticus.

Since I was brought up in such a classical tradition, my instinct is to give the original Japanese text, and a translation, and then leave others tro judge. This is rarely done nowadays on the Internet, especially with the output of M Ueshiba. So we are left with the douka, which Jun always posts at the head of this web site, and the occasional translation from Mr Stevens, which people seem to take as the actual words of the Founder. But when you want to pry more closely into the concept of ki, as Mr Sigman seeks to do (and whose concerns I also share), then you need look much more closely at the original Japanese.

Best regards,

[Mike Sigman]

But when you want to pry more closely into the concept of ki, as Mr Sigman seeks to do (and whose concerns I also share), then you need look much more closely at the original Japanese. Hi Peter:

"Ki" is at best a vagary of which "kokyu" is a more specific subset. The manifestation of "Ki" in Aikido and other arts has to do with the coordination of the mind and how the body moves or is motivated with strength that involves a sort of myofascial component. Shioda actually acknowledges part of this by indicating people become unaffected by blows, etc., but his books focus on a "ki" that more directly tries to systematize what "kokyu" is, to my mind (I have a caveat about this which I'll get to in a minute).

Tohei focuses on the "kokyu" also, in the main, but he does it in conjunction with the more proper concept of proper mind/body/myofascial "ki" being involved in the formation of kokyu power. I suspect fairly strongly that Shioda knew somewhat more about proper "ki" than is indicated in his books, but I'm dithering about just how he may have known because I have only limited information to extrapolate from.

The question overall may be about Japanese knowledge of "ki" (what they knew and when they knew it), but more specifically I'm focused on this term "kokyu" and its full meaning/derivation. I suspect that this term has to do with the relationship of breathing techniques to the training of the actual "ki", which results in the ability to manifest kokyu. In the real world, people can be taught to do a certain level of kokyu without having learned how to train the pressure and fascia components with the breath, so I tend to separate "kokyu power" from "ki", in terms of training, etc. The upshot of all my comments is that the concept of Ki as a whole I have no problem with, but the etymology of "kokyu" and the history of it in Japan is interesting to me. Any help would be appreciated.

Additionally, I'm having some problem with the term "bakuhatsu ryoku" ("explosive power") as Shioda uses it. I suspect the idea derives from the "fa jin" (literally "attack force", but it means an explosive release of power) concept in Chinese, but I don't see Shioda using what I would technically term fa jin ability, although he appears to be able to use focused power quite quickly.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Ellis Amdur]

Regarding Standing Practice: One of Shioda's uchi-deshi recently published an account of his training at http://www.yoshinkan.info/deshi.php

"The training in this course consists of three parts starting from basic movements. The basic movements are like "Kata" in Karate which can train the physical strength of legs and groin necessary for Aikido techniques. In the basic movements you must stand with 80 percent of your body weight rested on one leg for about five minutes moving both left and right with different movements."

Best

Ellis Amdur

[Mike Sigman]

Regarding Standing Practice [snip] Interesting article. Sounds like the author underwent a lot of psychological pressure, in addition to actual training. I would like the skills, but not the nerve problems he reported. ;)

I think a certain amount of "standing practice" is now established as integral to a lot of higher-level Aikido. Not many people seemed aware of this in the West, from my experience. Standing practice, when done correctly, will give you actual "ki" over time, although just developing ki and not knowing how to use it in your movements is an oft-encountered problem. I occasionally meet people that I know do standing practice the moment I touch them, and they are "heavy", but they have no idea how to move so it doesn't do a lot of good except for the 'health' aspects and some of the strength. For strength and health, doing standing exercises and some movement exercises using the kokyu power is probably sufficient, but martial practice involves a lot more.

O-Sensei's jo-trick indicates that he did standing exercises; comments in Shioda's book "Aikido Shugyo" tend to corroborate that idea. Shioda's use of kokyu in some of his demonstrations indicates the kind of power you get from standing, not the power from repetitive exercise. Shioda apparently did some sort of down-power exercise from what I see of his usage of it, but I can't get a handle on what that exercise was. It may have simply been suburi, but it might have been something more direct. After watching Shioda on video, I'm still up in the air about whether he got outside help on ki/kokyu training tips. But the sleuthing is fun. Any tips or comments are appreciated. :)

Mike

[Steven]

Just wanted to inject a word about the English translation. The translators, Jaques Payet Sensei and Christopher Watson Sensei, who are "western", but both longtime devotees of Yoshinkan, state at the outset of the book that the translation is not word-for-word, but has instead been enhanced to make it easier for "westerners" to understand. The translation originally began as seperate projects by Payet and Watson, but then became a collaboration. It was done after Shioda Kancho's death, so there was no oversight by him personally, although the translation was endorsed by Kyoichi Inoue Sensei. Like most of you who have posted here, I would be interested to know from native speakers how much liberty was taken with the original wording.


Christopher's lastname is Johnston, not Watson.

As for your last question, I suppose you could write to either Jacque or Chris directly and ask. Anything else would be pure speculation.

This is from Shindokanbooks.com.
The translators, Jacques Payet and Christopher Johnston, have worked closely with the Yoshinkan Headquarters in Tokyo, Japan, to present the definitive English translation of Shioda Sensei's exciting and thought provoking book.

[Ellis Amdur]

Going back to one of Mike's previous posts, it is unlikely that Shioda developed his kokyu/ki through sword practice/suburi. Pre WWII uchi-deshi did little sword training. In the mid-thirties, a lot of what they did was kendo (which would not develop "sinking.") Shioda was not known as having skill with a sword. One of his exact contemporaries, Shirata Rinjiro spresented some sword exercises that he developed (quite interesting in their own right) and I heard him say in a class, "These probably look different to you from what you've seen from people like Saito sensei. Back when I studied, Osensei hadn't really developed much training with a sword." So however Shioda accomplished it, it wasn't likely through suburi or other weapons training.

Best

Ellis Amdur

[Mike Sigman]

Going back to one of Mike's previous posts, it is unlikely that Shioda developed his kokyu/ki through sword practice/suburi. Pre WWII uchi-deshi did little sword training. In the mid-thirties, a lot of what they did was kendo (which would not develop "sinking.") Shioda was not known as having skill with a sword. One of his exact contemporaries, Shirata Rinjiro spresented some sword exercises that he developed (quite interesting in their own right) and I heard him say in a class, "These probably look different to you from what you've seen from people like Saito sensei. Back when I studied, Osensei hadn't really developed much training with a sword." So however Shioda accomplished it, it wasn't likely through suburi or other weapons training. Thanks for the info and thoughts. Just to be clear, I was mainly talking about Shioda's sudden-down ability, which he appears to have developed pretty well (again, I'm somewhat stymied in judging his actual power by his tolerance for over-dramatic uke's).

Since all ki and hence kokyu can be viewed (in the ki paradigm) as coming from the hara, downward kokyu is technically not viewed as separate from kokyu that goes vertically up or away from the body or toward the body. In the real world, though, you have to train it somewhat differently. You can develop pretty good kokyu and ki skills in all non-downward directions using standing, hitting/pulsing practice, Aiki Taiso, etc., but downward takes something else, some other training method. There's a natural progression of going from large movements to small movements to "stillness" (unseeable movements) and Shioda's skills indicates he was fairly well along in his practice, whatever it was, with the caveat being again that the overly cooperative students obscure exactly what he could do.

Since I saw so little sophisticated ki and kokyu skills among western (and a lot of Japanese) practitioners and since I had only limited information about the early Aikido days, my perspective of Japanese knowledge of ki and kokyu things was skewed. I still haven't seen anything of really sophisticated jin and qi skills, but in comparison with the normal skills you see good Chinese martial arts, Shioda and Tohei (and by inference, some others) aren't too shabby, either. The bad side of this observation is that a lot of dedicated students have probably unknowingly been somewhat short-changed by the typical Asian reticence to completely disclose how these skills are done..... worse yet, so many people seem to be totally unaware that they're missing anything. Even worse than that, they defensively deny that they could be missing anything. :) Reading some of the side anecdotes in "Aikido Shogyu" about what O-Sensei and what Shioda Kancho could do would be enlightening to the true seekers, IMO.

FWIW

Mike

[Ron Tisdale]

HI Mike and All,

Thank you to Clarke, Ellis, Steven, and Peter for chiming in! Quite a lot of information. I have heard on pretty good authority that Shioda Kancho continued his Daito ryu training for some period of time after his training association with Ushiba Sensei ended. Basically, it is said that he chased everyone out of the dojo to train with Horikawa Sensei. Some comments on this can be found here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4458&highlight=shioda+horikawa

I have since confirmed that this did indeed take place, but I don't know on how regular a basis. I'd be interested in Mike's (and others) take on what usage of 'ki' and kokyu they see in any video of Daito ryu demonstrations, particularly in this case, the Kodokai.

I also noted something that Stan Pranin added to the thread...But I'll ask him about that in the original thread.

Thanks again all,
Ron

[Mike Sigman]

Thank you to Clarke, Ellis, Steven, and Peter for chiming in! Quite a lot of information. I have heard on pretty good authority that Shioda Kancho continued his Daito ryu training for some period of time after his training association with Ushiba Sensei ended. Basically, it is said that he chased everyone out of the dojo to train with Horikawa Sensei. Some comments on this can be found here: [snip] I have no dog in this hunt about Horikawa and Daito Ryu, so I won't go into it too much other than to say I consider the two arts so close as to be indistinguishable, *in their essentials*. Just like in all arts, there are variations between instructor, some are better than others, some move differently, etc., but the *essentials* that are done by the high-level practitioners appear to be pretty close. Again, though, there is that question of ki, kokyu, etc. I'd be interested in Mike's (and others) take on what usage of 'ki' and kokyu they see in any video of Daito ryu demonstrations, particularly in this case, the Kodokai. I have to concur with the comment I've seen and heard a number of times.... the way Shioda moves and does Aikido is different from what I see in so many Yoshinkan practitioners. I'd make an offhand guess that the systematization of Aikido that Shioda invented also resulted in people not doing quite what he himself learned to do and it shows. But I don't want to go off on that tangent; I just throw my *opinion* in FWIW.

In terms of Ki and Kokyu, that appears to be as much of a focus to Shioda as does his Aikido techniques. Maybe even more so, watching how he delights in showing off the kokyu things. In my opinion, learning Aikido with "enough to get by" ki and kokyu is an absurdity... Aikido without a strong emphasis on ki and kokyu is like Aikido in which you learn shihonage but you only rarely make token attempts at nikkyo and sankyo and other controls because you see no point in overemphasizing "controls". ;)

While Tohei uses ki/kokyu things as an integral part of the way he moves during all his Aikido (and all his daily motions, etc.), Shioda seems to delight in "tricks" that can be done with the manipulation of kokyu, etc. Reading his books, I got the impression from his systematization that his level was so-so, but better than most people. Watching him in person, I realize that his kokyu manipulation (in conjunction with his uncanny, lightning-fast "feel" for where someone's empty spot is) is quite high. He's impressive.

The question about Shioda is now, for me, to fine-tune exactly what he knew, where he learned it, etc., if I ever can pin those things down. From what Shioda does, I can generally tag what he can do by how he does the things he shows, but this one aspect of down-power is troubling because if he's doing it in a more sophisticated way than I can see (I don't think so, but I always have to allow for the possibility that I'm missing something), then the puzzle gets deeper.

To more directly address your question, I'd say that what I've seen and read by Shioda has largely increased my respect of what full-blown Aikido really means to the big dogs. Seriously. Shioda's take on Aikido (plus a lot of his anecdotes showing O-Sensei could do these things, too) is quite similar to real Taiji (not what you see practiced in the West), too. The "neutralize the attack and apply technique through timing", etc., is the same basic idea. The neutralizations and response in real Taiji are quite small in comparison to the larger "swirling" things you so often see in Aikido, but Shioda's Aikido reconciles that disparity nicely, IMO.

As I mentioned, I only have the DVD "Shingi Denju" (which has a lot of historical footage, so it's a nice overview) to go by, but there's a lengthy section of Shioda demonstrating very clever and direct jin/kokyu applications (even using his keiko-gi as the transmitter in some cases) that's really interesting. It raised my eyebrows to see that level of control used in Aikido. It would have been a high level of control in just about any art that I know of.

FWIW

Mike

[Ron Tisdale]

One reason I suggest looking at Daito ryu is because of something we've discussed before I believe...the focus on 'aiki' as opposed to just 'ki'. That seems (to me) to be the real focus in aikido's predesessor, and that is why if you want to see the basis for a lot of these things, it pays to look at what the other 'top dogs' in Daito ryu did/do. Its just a suggestion, and given the more secretive nature often associated with the higher levels in Daito ryu, not an easy thing to do in any case.

One of the benefits would be to see more of those direct applications, without the large circles of aikido.

Best,
Ron

[Alex Megann]

This is one of the most fascinating threads I've seen on Aikiweb for a long while!

My teacher (Kanetsuka Sensei) talks a lot about "aiki" and contact, and these days spends far more time teaching these than technique itself, to the evident frustration of many in his classes. His original teacher was Gozo Shioda, and one can see much of the influence of Shioda in the way he moves, and also in the kind of very quick, direct "centre-to-centre" contact he has with his uke. This, as I understand it, is a kind of contact which is rarely seen in Aikido, and Kanetsuka Sensei is constantly berating us for not getting this point.

Mike's mention of "standing" intrigues me - I have only limited experience of the Chinese arts, but Kanetsuka Sensei went through a phase about fifteen years ago, when he had come through the worst of his serious bout with cancer, of doing some exercises which I've never seen elsewhere in Aikido. One I think of (in my ignorance of its real name) as "holding the circle": standing with the arms out at chest height, fingertips touching and palms facing the body, and the heels held a little off the floor. He also taught an exercise he always refers to as being Chinese in origin - swinging the arms from shoulder level down to a little behind the hips, while letting the heels rise a little with each swing. At that time he would have us do both of these for twenty minutes or more.

What I would find very interesting is what other contributors to this thread think of Yamaguchi Sensei's Aikido in this context. He has been another strong influence on Kanetsuka Sensei, and to me his contact, which he referred to as "atari", seems to be similar in its essence to that of Shioda's (though their Aikido was quite different in form). I was of course hugely impressed by his Aikido when I first saw him twenty years or so ago in Oxford, but each time I watch video footage of him now the more I wish he were still around, as I see new subtleties in his extraordinarily smooth but powerful Aikido.

Alex

[Mike Sigman]

One reason I suggest looking at Daito ryu is because of something we've discussed before I believe...the focus on 'aiki' as opposed to just 'ki'. That seems (to me) to be the real focus in aikido's predesessor, and that is why if you want to see the basis for a lot of these things, it pays to look at what the other 'top dogs' in Daito ryu did/do. Its just a suggestion, and given the more secretive nature often associated with the higher levels in Daito ryu, not an easy thing to do in any case. I get a little confused with the term "aiki" as some people are using it. Some people are using it to mean what actually is kokyu and some people are using it to mean "blending", etc. One of the problems with the term "aiki" is that a lot of somewhat sheltered Aikidoists think there's this neat Aikido idea of not resisting and blending with the opponent's attack and then either setting them aside gently or planting their face in the floor at the choosing of nage. The unfortunate thing is that if you've been around a while you understand that this same philosophy appears in a number of martial arts. So, it's a cool idea, etc., but it is not something really unique like the comparison in a lot of peoples' minds between Aikido and "karate" (poor karate... it's always the fall guy for people who do "soft", "internal", and "spiritual" stuff).

In terms of "aiki" as a definition of kokyu, I'll have to pass, BTW. It does not compute.

The interesting thing about "harmonizing" with the opponent is that to a large extent you always have to harmonize with your opponent if you're going to beat him with anything other than a sucker-punch or brute strength/size. If you read Shioda's comments on timing, etc., and the use of atemi, these are certainly within the realm of "aiki" as he defines it (of course, Shioda, not being of style X, could not possibly understand the real meaning of "aiki" the way adherents of style X do... that goes without saying. He was only a direct student of Ueshiba and was not enlightened in the approved manner. ;) ).

What I meant about Daito-Ryu and Aikido is that I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that at the higher levels of both arts they use the same amounts of ki and kokyu..... which is to say every movement is imbued with this sort of power/skill/conditioning.

My opinion, FWIW.

Mike

[Ron Tisdale]

I like the parallels and differences between Shioda and Yamaguchi Sensei too, Alex. Its one reason I value my opportunities to train with some from that lineage here outside Phila. The form vs no-form thing is very interesting...for some reason the different training styles seem to compliment each other well. I don't know why. Are there any online clips of Kanetsuka Sensei?

One of my yoshinkan sempai does a lot of standing practice, some of which is similar to what you describe, and he also talks of equilizing the pressure throughout his body (seems similar to some of the things Mike describes).

Thanks,
Ron

[Mike Sigman]

Mike's mention of "standing" intrigues me - I have only limited experience of the Chinese arts, but Kanetsuka Sensei went through a phase about fifteen years ago, when he had come through the worst of his serious bout with cancer, of doing some exercises which I've never seen elsewhere in Aikido. One I think of (in my ignorance of its real name) as "holding the circle": standing with the arms out at chest height, fingertips touching and palms facing the body, and the heels held a little off the floor. He also taught an exercise he always refers to as being Chinese in origin - swinging the arms from shoulder level down to a little behind the hips, while letting the heels rise a little with each swing. At that time he would have us do both of these for twenty minutes or more. Standing-post exercises are thought of by a lot of westerners and even a lot of Asians as some sort of Chinese ritual which is superfluous to actual practice. Or they think it's a mind-calming "meditation" where you "get in touch" with yourself and the universe. It's actually necessary training if you're ever going to get anywhere with ki/kokyu things. The problem is that you have to know how to do it... just copying somebody's posture won't do you much good, although it *will* build your ki somewhat, despite yourself.

However, there is martial standing practice and there is standing for "health". In the health-type standing you simply relax, but it's important that you understand how to shift your source of power to your hara (and that derives its power from both the ground and your weight). The idea is that standing develops your ki, which is true because it does, and if your ki is strong then the acupuncture circuits through your body get better ki flow and therefore you can improve your health (and if you have cancer worries, that's why you do standing exercises). Martial standing and qigongs are a little more sophisticated and even though they may look exactly the same as a health standing-exercise, they are a lot more involved. In health standings, the mind is deliberately shut down to allow the cerebral cortex or whatever to strengthen; in martial standings, deliberate kokyu extensions are held, so the mind can be said to be "focused" as opposed to "empty".

The things your teacher led you through were for health, but they can also develop some ki. Bear in mind that ki and strength are inextricably intertwined and so anyone who simply lifts weights (or works out in a dojo) will have more ki than someone who does no exercise... i.e., don't think of ki as apart from normal life. However, deliberately cultivated and conditioned ki can do some odd things... and that's the level we're talking about in these discussions about Shioda, Tohei, O-Sensei, etc.

FWIW

Mike

[Pauliina Lievonen]

FWIW there are a couple (very short) video clips of Kanetsuka sensei on the AikidoFAQ.

Those standing things sound similar to things my teacher's teacher, Terry Ezra sensei, does as well.

kvaak
Pauliina
off to class

[Yann Golanski]

Since Ezra sensei and Kanetsuka sensei were in the same organisation before Ezra split from it I am not surprised that their technique look similar. No, I don't know why they moved to different organisations.

[Alex Megann]

It's interesting to hear mention of Terry Ezra in this context. He certainly has this ability to transmit power, and also has a feeling of soft solidity to him that I've rarely encountered elsewhere in Aikido. He tends to move very little (in contrast to Shioda, for instance), and has the ability to take the uke's strength away in very small, quick movements. I remember being amused when fast-forwarding a video of him demonstrating - there was Terry in the middle of the dojo, almost stationary, with a barely-recognisable blur of movement around him.

The strange thing is that his Aikido is actually very different from Kanetsuka's, despite his central position in the BAF for so many years. Practising with him was always a unique experience.

Alex

[Rupert Atkinson]

Lots of names appearing in this thread related to me so I'll give my 2 Won.

Hello Alex - I still do both those standing exercises you mention that I remember Kanetsuka doing way back when. Here in Korea various other arts (some Chinese, some Korean) use them too. I also like to do the arms-in-a-circle one while holding a jo - once static, once pressing it, once pulling it apart.

For the person who asked about vids - I have seen Kanetsuka's teaching videos - they are quite useful but nothing compared to seeing the man himself.

I was also fortunate to meet Shioda in person so - the following is copied and pasted from a private message I sent to Mike Sigman:

I was fortunate to learn Yoshinkan for about 18 months from one of Shioda Gozo's top students in Japan. I also saw a few other sensei and they were pretty much identical to mine. Identical in that the Yoshinkan syllabus was enforced to the letter in minute detail. Everyone did everything the same way - any deviation was simply, wrong. And then came Shioda. I saw him do three demos while there and he came to our club to give a demo and do gradings twice. He did not do Yoshinkan! He was a free spirit and was the only person who did nothing related to the syllabus whatsoever. His style was like Kanetsuka in the UK except harder and meaner - he had a bit a of a mean streak and loved to inflict pain. Another interesting thing was - none of his students could do what he could do. Not surprising really, since he never taught it - all his students taught the robotic basics method.

Shioda was good, but one thing that turned me off was his demos. The first one was great, the second and third were exactly the same! Even the Jyuu waza (free practice) - same techniques in the same damned order. That was pretty bad form if you ask me. Especially if you call it Jyuu-waza.

I also saw Shioda wave his bokken about in demos. He was very fast and precise. I never saw anyone else do weapons work in Yoshinkan while there.

Here, I am just guessing: Kanetsuka, I think, is related to Shiseikan (I trained there one year), who used to be related to Yoshinkan. Kanetsuka probably had a lot of robotic Yoshinkan style training and then found his freedom when he went to the UK. Also, Kanetsuka's style changed for the better AFTER he got over his cancer - he had less strength I guess. He also has the same piercing glint in his eye that I saw in Shioda.

Terry Ezra was Kanetsuka's #1 student - but has now chosen to go his own way - and is the only person I have come across who did things to me that I could not understand. The guy is amazing. Again, vids do not do him justice. Experience it for yourself.

ki/chi/aiki - To me, ki / chi is that magical energy that I don't really believe in. Aiki, however, is the feeling of merging/blending/flowing (or not, if you so choose) with your partner - the feeling can be nothing / soft / sticky plastic / firm / immovable / penetrating - yet always changing. That's how I rationalise it to myself. The problem is, we all have different definitions and end up talking cross purposes.

[Mike Sigman]

Terry Ezra was Kanetsuka's #1 student - but has now chosen to go his own way - and is the only person I have come across who did things to me that I could not understand. The guy is amazing. Again, vids do not do him justice. Experience it for yourself. Is it possible for you to describe something of an instance that you "could not understand"? I.e., was it a command of technique/application or was it in terms of body power/skill? ki/chi/aiki - To me, ki / chi is that magical energy that I don't really believe in. A single magical energy that permeates the universe? No, I don't either. That's just an ancient paradigm that the Chinese used before the advent of scientific method. Most modern Chinese don't really believe in a single magical force, either. Wang Xiang Zhai, founder of yiquan, said all the qi stuff was bunkum as do many others. The physical skills, which have traditionally been referred to as "qi" for centuries, are unusual and real, but they all seem to fall into accordance with the natural physical laws when you look at them closely. That kind of "qi" I believe in, but I consider the name just an arbitrary and vague handle. Aiki, however, is the feeling of merging/blending/flowing (or not, if you so choose) with your partner - the feeling can be soft / sticky plastic / or firm. That's how I rationalise it to myself. The problem is, we all have different definitions and end up talking cross purposes. Debate-wise, I'd point you to Shioda's comments about "harmony" (i.e., "aiki") when he talks about atemi. I.e., I would venture that ki and kokyu are skills that are independent of technique and strategy components that you appear to be adding to the definition. ;) My opinion, only.

Regards,

Mike

[rob_liberti]

What I would find very interesting is what other contributors to this thread think of Yamaguchi Sensei's Aikido in this context.I think he was a sword master, and generated a tremendous amount of power with completely relaxed arms. I think the countless times when uke's who were remarkably difficult to move would attack him in something like ushiro ryokatatori and their elbows would just pop up due to some imperceptable movement on Yamaguchi sensei's part speaks to his ability in this area. He had his own private dojo and produced some incredibly strong aikidoka in their own right and did not do any standing exercises beyond shin-kokyu and suburi.

Personally, I think that no one thinks that we should develop just enough ki and kokyu to get by. I think people have their own approach to further developing these things from new perspectives. To get to those new perspectives, you sometimes have to shift your focus for a while and look at things in a new light. Bruce Cockburn's "keep kicking the darkness until it bleeds light" is fine when you have a tremendous amount of time - but it also reminds me of the definition of insanity where someone keeps trying the same actions and keeps expecting different results.

Rob

[Rupert Atkinson]

Is it possible for you to describe something of an instance that you "could not understand"? I.e., was it a command of technique/application or was it in terms of body power/skill?
Mike

I can do things to my own students that they can not do. In time though, some of them can do it right back on me. If you understand something it becomes technical - it can be explained, so you teach it. Ezra Sensei is beyond me and I can't do it so can not explain. His body skill is subtle. You grab him but you can not control what you hold. Tamura Sensei did something similar to me last year but he was more interested in having fun with me than trying to teach me anything. Ezra Sensei tries his best to teach you what he is doing yet it is exceedingly difficult to copy. It is sometimes possible to do it on someone less skilled than yourself, but impossible to do back on Ezra. It is good to meet people like Ezra if only to expand your realm-of-the-possible. Another great man I met only a couple of times was a Bagua/Hsing I/Tai Chi teacher in Tokyo called Mr. So. He could do anything to anyone - they were puppets in his hands. He did not have that Aikido 'love and peace' outlook and used his skill at 'harmonising' with devious yet superbly skillful martial purpose. It's a body thing, not technical. I am up to my ears in technical. Actually, it's both - I just need to get my body in order!

And yes - time and strategy. They are major components of harmony, as is distance or space. It is not easy to fit time or space into explanations of feeling, but that's where we need to go.

[Mike Sigman]

I can do things to my own students that they can not do. In time though, some of them can do it right back on me. If you understand something it becomes technical - it can be explained, so you teach it. Well, Tohei voiced some frustrations that O-Sensei described ki and kokyu skills in terms of the gods entering his body, etc. Tohei puts *some* practical descriptions to the same things and refers to them in such ways as "keeping his center sunk", etc. Some people are trying to develop kokyu skills by waiting for the body and the mind to do certain things, but they don't know what. Shioda attempted to approach the same skills mechanistically, for purposes of description and getting the most number of people to acquire some skills (I personally suspect he reserved some of his skills, just as Tohei does, O-Sensei did, etc.). So the problem for a wide-spectrum forum like this one is to find a common dialogue and/or logical approach (as Shioda attempted to do) that is understood by the most number of people. And yes - time and strategy. They are major components of harmony, as is distance or space. It is not easy to fit time or space into explanations of feeling, but that's where we need to go. I don't think we need to go into "feeling" at all. I think we can discuss things fairly well right up to the area of "feeling", but that's about it because feelings are simply too subjective. Heck, I was discussing with a friend of mine on the phone the other night that we can't even define who is "good at Aikido" because it's so subjective. Dan ranks have been given out indiscriminately by some instructors so knowing someone's rank doesn't tell us all that much; people are basing "good" on how someone handles essentially cooperative attacks that are limited in scope, etc. I even have people that want me to see "how good" their instructor, etc., is by "getting on the mat with him", i.e., they envision me wearing a hakama and offering shomenuchi or katate-tori or something and their instructor taking my proffered attack and driving me into the mat or perhaps dislocating my elbow with a foreshortened shihonage. ;) Anyone who can talk me into sacrificing my body to prove someone is "good" would be a smoothe-talking devil, indeed. My point is that I have great difficulty with some of the descriptions in Aikido (and other arts, as well) if we don't have some basis for what "good" is. None of us know how "good" the other person is from our typewriting skills on these forums, so none of us can be clear what is "amazing" without some fairly clear descriptions of what happened. Perhaps if we try to fine-tune our descriptions of the things we think are extraordinary?

I remember the first time I mentioned to a teacher of mine that I thought such-and-such was a great martial art, as I understood it. He asked, "Oh... what great fighters has it produced?". I named a name and he replied, "Oh... who did he beat?". In other words, he cut to the chase and had me really reviewing a lot of my definitions and musings. :) I think it's a helpful way to approach things, even for those people who don't want to let go of cherished "beliefs" and "feelings", by being so pragmatic. Every truly accomplished martial artist I know is pretty darn pragmatic and did a lot of thinking about how things actually work in his years of practice.

Notice that as things are getting better in various arts, including Aikido, a lot of it has to do with more specific and detailed information oh how to do things correctly (not to say that there isn't a lot of totally bogus information out there that will lead you the wrong way, if you're not careful).

All the Best.

Mike

[Pauliina Lievonen]

Not meaning to get the topic too much adrift, apologies... http://www.aikido.co.uk/ has some clips of Ezra sensei, click on "resources", and then on the title of either cd. The clips from the Ikkyo cd are way down the page.

kvaak
Pauliina

[Peter Goldsbury]

A few points.

Minoru Kanetsuka was not directly related to the Shiseikan. His relationship came indirectly through Takushoku University, also attended by Tanaka Shigeho (and, incidentally by Masatake Fujita).

After William Smith separated from M Kanetsuka in the early 80s, Terry Ezra stayed with him in the BAF. However, Terry had other influences, notably K. Chiba and healer John Kane, and I think they grew apart from quite early on.

I trained with Kanetsuka Shihan almost every day for about 5 years, between my return from the US and my departure for Japan. From what I know of Yoshinkan training, this was very similar, but he also began to study M Saito's aiki-ken and aiki-jo and also the Kashima swordwork practised by Chiba's father-in-law, M Sekiya, who stayed in the UK for a year. He was nothing if not eclectic.

Rather than S Yamaguchi (aiki, in my opinion), I think the Aikikai shihan who embodies kokyuu most clearly is Hiroshi Tada. I trained/train regularly with both shihans here in Japan and they are quite different. Both awesome, but quite different. The one common link is that both do (did, in the case of Yamaguchi Sensei) aikido and studied (stole) directly from M Ueshiba.

Best regards,

[Mark Murray]

Rupert Atkinson wrote:
>I can do things to my own students that they can not do. In time
>though, some of them can do it right back on me. If you
>understand something it becomes technical - it can be explained,
>so you teach it.

Yes, I can definitely understand that.

>Ezra Sensei is beyond me and I can't do it so can not explain. His
>body skill is subtle. You grab him but you can not control what
>you hold.

I have been in that situation also, so I understand what you're talking about. And I agree, you can't explain it or teach it. But if you experience it enough and train enough, you start to understand it and then you're on your way.

>And yes - time and strategy. They are major components of
>harmony, as is distance or space. It is not easy to fit time or
>space into explanations of feeling, but that's where we need to go.

Time and timing are two separate components that have an important part in things. Distance and space are another two.

No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. If you're good enough with aiki, ki, timing, and distance, you can "make" some uki believe that the space that they are going to occupy has suddenly been occupied by tori/nage. The time part is the fraction of a second where tori/nage occupies that space with ki/whatever. The timing is knowing when to start and end this process. The space is the exact point where uki believes himself to be. The distance is how much each person moves to accomplish these things. But all four are separate entities.

Now, if a tori/nage can do this without physically occupying that space, that's what I call using ki. My opinion. But when you can do that (and I can't, yet), and use aiki/blending/harmonizing, then you have an infinite amount of choices/movements to play with.

Think about blending with an uki to redirect them where you want them and then occupying the space they were going to land in with your ki. You would have an uki that would be putty in your hands. And that's about as well as I can explain some of the things I've felt but couldn't comprehend. And I'm not even sure I'm right in my thinking that this is what is going on. But until I'm further along and can understand more ... it'll be a mystery worth solving.

Mark

[Mike Sigman]

Time and timing are two separate components that have an important part in things. Distance and space are another two. Time is what keeps everything from happening at once; Space is what keeps everything from happening to YOU. No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. If you're good enough with aiki, ki, timing, and distance, you can "make" some uki believe that the space that they are going to occupy has suddenly been occupied by tori/nage. The time part is the fraction of a second where tori/nage occupies that space with ki/whatever. The timing is knowing when to start and end this process. The space is the exact point where uki believes himself to be. The distance is how much each person moves to accomplish these things. But all four are separate entities.

Now, if a tori/nage can do this without physically occupying that space, that's what I call using ki. My opinion. But when you can do that (and I can't, yet), and use aiki/blending/harmonizing, then you have an infinite amount of choices/movements to play with.

Think about blending with an uki to redirect them where you want them and then occupying the space they were going to land in with your ki. You would have an uki that would be putty in your hands. And that's about as well as I can explain some of the things I've felt but couldn't comprehend. And I'm not even sure I'm right in my thinking that this is what is going on. But until I'm further along and can understand more ... it'll be a mystery worth solving. I would still point out that even O-Sensei stressed atemi, even though many Aikidoists think everything can be done by magically "blending with your opponent". Every really good Aikidoist that I've ever seen uses checks and hits when he can't "blend" with even cooperative attacks, so I'd at least offer the opinion that the perhaps false goal of blending may not be totally on target. :)


FWIW

Mike

[davidafindlay]

Hello,

Don't think my two cents isn't worth very much in this discussion (which is really good, btw), but I just have a quick observation about instructors and how they feel. Interesting how the feeling of advanced people is so similar.

My background is Shodokan; ended up at our hombu dojo in Osaka for a year in 1999/00 then went tripping about some. I bumped into Ezra sensei at a seminar in the UK. Over the course of nine years in aikido he had the closest feeling to Nariyama Shihan of our hombu dojo. I was almost tempted to journey up to Liverpool from the English deep south to train with him. (Logistics unfortunatey, were not kind.)

A signifcant part of the Shodokan system can be seen to focus on itoistu rokyu, kokyu rokyu and datsu rokyu (granted; exact definitions only valid within a school, but anyway). When I've felt Nariyama's technique and, on the one occasion, Ezra sensei's, these aspects felt very similar.

Best,
Dave Findlay

[Alex Megann]

Minoru Kanetsuka was not directly related to the Shiseikan. His relationship came indirectly through Takushoku University, also attended by Tanaka Shigeho (and, incidentally by Masatake Fujita).
Best regards,

Kanetsuka Sensei had more a prolonged - although informal - influence from the Shiseikan in later years: for a while (in the late eighties, if I recall correctly) he had quite close contacts with Minoru Inaba, now head of the Shisekan, and would travel halfway across Europe to see him. I remember him speaking of Inaba as if he were some kind of prodigy - even though he is a little younger than Kanetsuka, the latter had great respect for his insights. I would guess the initial link with Inaba would have been through Sekiya Sensei.

There is an Aikido Journal interview with Inaba here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=107&highlight=inaba

Alex

[rob_liberti]

Rather than S Yamaguchi (aiki, in my opinion), I think the Aikikai shihan who embodies kokyuu most clearly is Hiroshi Tada. I trained/train regularly with both shihans here in Japan and they are quite different. Both awesome, but quite different. The one common link is that both do (did, in the case of Yamaguchi Sensei) aikido and studied (stole) directly from M Ueshiba.

I would agree that Yamaguchi sensei did not stress kokyu over aiki in his teaching of aikido and was quite awesome. Yet, he and his students certainly had/have kokyu power in abundance.

Saotome sensei's first teacher was Yamaguchi sensei. Some other notable students (for members of this forum) would be Endo sensei, Yasuno sensei, Takeda sensei, Gleason sensei, and I believe Christian Tissier sensei as well (not to mention some of their own students).

I chose my approach based on the number of excellent students produced by that training methodology. Just curious, who are the notable students of Tada sensei? I don't know that lineage very well at all.

Rob

[Alex Megann]

I chose my approach based on the number of excellent students produced by that training methodology. Just curious, who are the notable students of Tada sensei? I don't know that lineage very well at all.
Rob

In Europe at least, Tada's notable students include Hideki Hosokawa (7 Dan), Masatomi Ikeda (7 Dan) and the late Giorgio Veneri (6 Dan).

Alex

[Peter Goldsbury]

I would agree that Yamaguchi sensei did not stress kokyu over aiki in his teaching of aikido and was quite awesome. Yet, he and his students certainly had/have kokyu power in abundance.

Saotome sensei's first teacher was Yamaguchi sensei. Some other notable students (for members of this forum) would be Endo sensei, Yasuno sensei, Takeda sensei, Gleason sensei, and I believe Christian Tissier sensei as well (not to mention some of their own students).

I chose my approach based on the number of excellent students produced by that training methodology. Just curious, who are the notable students of Tada sensei? I don't know that lineage very well at all.

Rob

I was not thinking in terms of lineage, so much as my own direct experience of these shihans over the twenty-odd years I have been here. Both have/had large numbers of senior students here in Japan. Yamaguchi Shihan had kokyuu but did not stress it: he was able to control uke's balance. Tada Shihan places great stress on kokyuu and on stranding exercises. Of course, when he was a deshi, he supplemented his aikido training with training under Tenpu Nakamura (as did Tohei) and others.

[Mike Sigman]

There is an Aikido Journal interview with Inaba here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=107&highlight=inaba
Alex It's a good article. Relevant to the thread topic of Ki Things, was this: However, even if you grasp timing, if you don't focus your power or energy you cannot do anything. In the human body the area to focus power is the lower abdomen (kafuku tanden).

Power focused here is defensive power; power going out is offensive power.

How can you put forth offensive power? The first thing you have to do is to focus the power in your center. Offensive power will naturally flow if you focus your power in the center. That is forceful power (iryoku). It is a condition of focused energy that becomes center energy. In budo, people use the terms "bui" or "iryoku", don't they? Most important in martial arts is "iwoharu," showing this powerfully focused energy. It's not good to pretend that you have energy (karaibari). Try to use the energy in the lower abdomen. You can call this energy focused "ki" energy. If you don't have center energy, you are bluffing. Really, you have to develop this energy. The energy will flow naturally if you can focus it in the lower abdomen. If you understand this point, you will understand how to develop your body and mind and how you should train.

If you forget this essential point, you'll think only about winning, and you won't have the power to keep centered. This power won't be released and you will be destroyed. What Inaba Sensei said is another stress on the importance of the ki and kokyu components. What I think happens is that everyone gets so used to hearing these terms (often from the mouthes of people with little or no real skills), that they automatically think of it as not too important (in comparison with technique) or as something a bit separate and which they already do enough of. But... each person has to see and choose their own way. Perhaps I'm too enamored with the recent (to me, with the perspective I have) revelation that there was a stronger undercurrent and knowledge of ki things in Aikido than I had thought. With today's sources of information (Aikido Journal, books, etc.) these things become more apparent. You do exercises to straighten up your back muscles and relax your shoulders. Drop your focus to your lower abdomen. If you do that, you'll find your center point and you will produce center energy. If your center is not developed, you won't have ki energy available to project through your fingers.

If you take excess energy from the upper body and train the lower body as in sumo wrestling, and if you train the energy of the lower abdomen, you will develop your center energy. You use that power wherever necessary.

Even though you focus the energy in your lower abdomen, you will not be able to move the energy to the area where you need it right away. You have to think about how you are going to move it. You have to think about two things, gathering and filling up the power, and then moving the power to where the opponent will attack. Also if you have a weapon, you have to project energy through the weapon. If you understand this point, you'll know how to train and what you need to develop. At the same moment you meet your opponent, you focus on your abdomen (hara) and project your ki where you need it. The result will be that you will shut down your opponent's power. I understand that as the power of "aiki." Those last 3 sentences are interesting because they discuss our previous topic of "aiki" (the one I said that I found confusing due to the different way people were using it). IF I assume that Inaba Sensei's definition is correct (and I think it's a good working assumption) and I take into account the what I called "clever" and ""sophisticated" usages I saw Shioda do, then I know what he means and I can see a general definition that seems plausible to me. As Inaba use it, "Aiki" has to do with the use of kokyu in relation to what I called the "lightning fast feel for someone's empty spot" that Shioda demonstrates repeatedly in a segment of the DVD "Shingi Denju". And I agree... this is the essence of all good techniques when you know how to really use kokyu. Let me add one point to that last sentence... it's very common to meet a simple statement like that last one with an "Oh yeah, I know what he's talking about and I already do that", but I'm talking about a specific area of skill that I saw Shioda do that I doubt the average person knows how to do. I.e., it's probably worth the chase.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike

[Peter Goldsbury]

Kanetsuka Sensei had more a prolonged - although informal - influence from the Shiseikan in later years: for a while (in the late eighties, if I recall correctly) he had quite close contacts with Minoru Inaba, now head of the Shisekan, and would travel halfway across Europe to see him. I remember him speaking of Inaba as if he were some kind of prodigy - even though he is a little younger than Kanetsuka, the latter had great respect for his insights. I would guess the initial link with Inaba would have been through Sekiya Sensei.

There is an Aikido Journal interview with Inaba here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=107&highlight=inaba

Alex

Hello Alex,

Yes, I know the article and have some stuff Inaba wrote in Japanese. There is a book called "Budo e no izanai: Nihon Seishin no Shuuyou". When you next meet KS, ask him if he My own connection with him is through my very first aikido teacher, who is a senior member of that dojo. This was before I met K. Chiba in Chiswick (in the days of the AGB). I remember Sekiya Sensei mentioning two powerful students, Inaba and Noguchi. Of course, they also trained with Yamaguchi Sensei.

Best regards,

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hello Mike,

Compare, if you will, the "lightning fast feel for one's empty spot", with the 'explosive power' talked about earlier in this thread. In my opinion, Yamaguchi's trademark was the first and Tada's trademark is the second, though of course they are two sides of a larger whole.

Inaba was greatly influenced by Yamaguchi, who never divorced kokyuu training from aikido training in general. Tada Shihan, on the other hand, practised a whole load of standing exercises, which he called "Ki no Renma" and insisted that kokyuu power could come only via very intensive training. As I intimated in a previous post, Tada supplemented his aikido trainig at the Hombu with training outside.

In aikido taking ukemi is a good way to sense what is happening and I have done this regularly over the years with both shihans. With Yamaguchi it was like grabbing hold of water. He found the empty spot, but then allowed you to fill it and then controlled your own ki/kokyuu until the next empty spot, and so on. With Tada it is more like entering a whirlpool, since he controls the 'kokyuu field' from the very begining. Tada expects you to keep up with his kokyuu, whereas Yamaguchi matches yours and draws it out, at every step.

Does this make sense?

Best regards,

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hello Alex,

Yes, I know the article and have some stuff Inaba wrote in Japanese. There is a book called "Budo e no izanai: Nihon Seishin no Shuuyou". When you next meet KS, ask him if he My own connection with him is through my very first aikido teacher, who is a senior member of that dojo. This was before I met K. Chiba in Chiswick (in the days of the AGB). I remember Sekiya Sensei mentioning two powerful students, Inaba and Noguchi. Of course, they also trained with Yamaguchi Sensei.

Best regards,

I see that I sent the post without finishing a sentence. I meant that you should ask Kanetsuka Sensei when you next see him if he knows of the book.

Best regards,

[rob_liberti]

Peter,

It makes perfect sense to me! I can totally relate to the idea of the teacher matching you and drawing you out at every step. That is what Gleason sensei does and teaches quite well. You are constantly receiving as uke and nage.

I actually got to train with Sekiya Sensei as my partner in Boston once! When he visited the area (one of his deshi had originally come from the area) he came to the annual Saotome sensei seminar at Gleason sensei's dojo. He had a dark black mustache and a big white afro. It was just ridiculous getting thrown by him. I had no idea what he was doing! He was totally soft and totally powerful.

Also, I believe that Noguchi sensei was the person who taught Kashimashinryo to Gleason sensei. He always speaks very highly of them.

I'm sure that explosive power is very interesting and useful, and I will continue to research it as a side curiosity while I stick to Yamaguchi sensei's approach. It obviously works quite well without focusing on kokyu divorced from aikido training in general. If someone wants to focus primarily on kokyu, I hope it works for them. (Maybe they should call what they do kokyudo? :))

Rob

[Ron Tisdale]

Jun, is there a way you can archive this thread in a prominent place on the board?

I'd really like to thank everyone for their contributions!

Best,
Ron

[Ron Tisdale]

It obviously works quite well without focusing on kokyu divorced from aikido training in general. If someone wants to focus primarily on kokyu, I hope it works for them. (Maybe they should call what they do kokyudo? )

Hi Rob, isn't that a little close to saying what Tada Sensei does is not aikido? Or was that a slight shot across the bow to Mike? ;) You know, Mike took quite a bit of flak coming here...but in the end, look at the thread it produced....

Best,
Ron

[Mike Sigman]

Compare, if you will, the "lightning fast feel for one's empty spot", with the 'explosive power' talked about earlier in this thread. In my opinion, Yamaguchi's trademark was the first and Tada's trademark is the second, though of course they are two sides of a larger whole. Hi Peter:

Actually, this can be looked at on about 3 levels of understanding. At the moment I'm going through a "duh" phase with myself, but the real problem was that I hadn't had anyone actually define the specific part of "aiki" before, the way Inaba did. Using that, I go back and see that Shioda wasn't just "delighting in kokyu tricks", as I earlier said, he was focusing on what "aiki-do" actually meant to him. It's an honest epiphany for me. Not that I missed what he was doing, I missed what it meant in the grand scheme of things because we all get confused in trying to pick out what is the important information when so much is always being paraded in front of us (that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it). I had already decided that what Shioda did was like an exquisite riff on a guitar that I had never thought about, even though I'm a "guitar player" as well. And I was already beginning to concentrate on accomplishing the riff the way he did it.

What Shioda did was being missed by his students that attempted to emulate him. They saw it on the first level. The second level would be after you got some kokyu skills and you emulated it on a gross level. The third level would be an extension beyond just the kokyu skills but how you move them outside of your body. Suddenly I see a whole art built around that concept (well, I see it after reading Inaba's enlightening comment) and I see even more clearly than before why just a few techniques are necessary if you have that particular skill. In a way, it's the same basic idea in real Taiji, but I again missed the focus because I was engaged in developing the extent of my powers and overlooked the four-leaf clover. Duh. ;)

The point being that "explosive power" is just one way you can apply this concept (or you can just use it to show off) and that's somewhat aside from "finding the empty spot" (which is important, but more complicated than I'm making it). Shioda did somewhat more than just "find the empty spot" but I figured that was accurate enough for the purposes of these discussions. Inaba was greatly influenced by Yamaguchi, who never divorced kokyuu training from aikido training in general. Tada Shihan, on the other hand, practised a whole load of standing exercises, which he called "Ki no Renma" and insisted that kokyuu power could come only via very intensive training. As I intimated in a previous post, Tada supplemented his aikido trainig at the Hombu with training outside. The level of kokyu is, as I've said before, a matter of degree. It goes from the coarse "driving with the whole body" stuff that some people do (they're sure they've "arrived", though) to the fairly sophisticated levels. At the fairly sophisticated levels you can do what Shioda did without actually having a lot of the true "ki" (and it's quite possible that Shioda didn't really understand what that is, given his definitions) or you can do what Shioda did and have in addition the actual ki-things the body can do, the ones that Tohei likes to focus on. In terms of the essence of Aikido, as I'm seeing it now, it can be effected without going to the full limits that Tohei does, but it's not simple and it does take some practice. So it could be that Tada was going for the full boat in addition to the essence of Aiki and Yamaguchi was focused only on the essence of Aiki. If that makes sense to you. I only offer it as a possibility since I don't know either person. In aikido taking ukemi is a good way to sense what is happening and I have done this regularly over the years with both shihans. With Yamaguchi it was like grabbing hold of water. He found the empty spot, but then allowed you to fill it and then controlled your own ki/kokyuu until the next empty spot, and so on. With Tada it is more like entering a whirlpool, since he controls the 'kokyuu field' from the very begining. Tada expects you to keep up with his kokyuu, whereas Yamaguchi matches yours and draws it out, at every step.

Does this make sense? Well, it makes sense, certainly, but it sounds like different usages of the same basic concept that Inaba called "aiki". I.e., once you understand it, you can play variations on the same theme. In fact, that's what Shioda was doing with his "riff".... it was a series of variations on the central theme; the way he did his ura, omote, leading, etc., would also be variations of that same theme, without a doubt. So someone being uke for Tsuki-Kotegaeshi with Shioda might have described a "whirlpool" or whatever feeling, but the essence of what Shioda did would have been this use of "aiki" throughout the throw, regardless of the feeling his particular variation of aiki induced on uke. IMO. Email me at mikesigman at earthlink.net so I can get your preferred email address and I'll try to lay it out more clearly, when I get a few minutes.

Regards,


Mike Sigman

[Alex Megann]

I see that I sent the post without finishing a sentence. I meant that you should ask Kanetsuka Sensei when you next see him if he knows of the book.

Best regards,
Thanks, Peter - I will do!

Alex

[rob_liberti]

Hi Rob, isn't that a little close to saying what Tada Sensei does is not aikido? Or was that a slight shot across the bow to Mike? ;)

Hi Ron.

I'm certain that what Tada sensei does is aikido. The point being made was about where to put your focus. My point doesn't have to be taken as a shot any more than say writing about how it would be an absurdity to study aikido and not focus on kokyu.

You know, Mike took quite a bit of flak coming here...but in the end, look at the thread it produced....

Now does that seem ... "Equitable?" ;)

I do agree that this is a wonderful thread.

Rob

[Ron Tisdale]

I'm reading the article posted earlier now, and I'm going to go back and re-read this entire thread afterward. The really cool thing is that I get to keiko this weekend with both Utada and Ikeda Sensei at the same time! I hope I can explore some of what is in this thread really soon...starting tonight, in fact!

Its funny, I've been reading Mike's writing off and on for quite sometime now, and trying to figure out some of this stuff and how it relates to my keiko here and there. But this is the most productive thread for me on this subject I can think of. In a sense, his 'challenge' to the art was very valid for me...I studied 'smash mouth' aikido for some time...not realizing that that wasn't what my teachers were teaching. Some of us just catch on slowly. I'm not convinced the problem is with the teachers so much as it is with the students (like me).

Good reading you again...

Best,
Ron

[Mark Murray]

Mike Sigman wrote:
>I would still point out that even O-Sensei stressed atemi, even >though many Aikidoists think everything can be done by magically
>"blending with your opponent". Every really good Aikidoist that I've
>ever seen uses checks and hits when he can't "blend" with even
>cooperative attacks, so I'd at least offer the opinion that the
>perhaps false goal of blending may not be totally on target.

Oh, yes, I agree with the atemi. I was just trying to explain that, as an uki, when you get "tossed around like a rag doll" by someone good, that they can use either a physical atemi or what some people call "ki". Right now in my understanding, I view them both as atemi (in the previous instance that I was talking about). One is physical and one is something else that I don't have a great understanding of yet, but I've been on the receiving end of both. :)

Mark

[Mike Sigman]

Getting back to the idea of developing Kokyu power, I thought of the below-styled thought attributed to Tada Shihan. I also note that Tohei's instructions for ki and kokyu seem pretty vague, but added to Tohei's cloudiness was a similar obscure comment in "Aikido Shugyo" about just training and it will happen. Here's the Tada comment via Peter :Inaba was greatly influenced by Yamaguchi, who never divorced kokyuu training from aikido training in general. Tada Shihan, on the other hand, practised a whole load of standing exercises, which he called "Ki no Renma" and insisted that kokyuu power could come only via very intensive training. As I intimated in a previous post, Tada supplemented his aikido trainig at the Hombu with training outside. But notice below that Inaba Sensei is fairly pragmatic in his suggestions: However, even if you grasp timing, if you don't focus your power or energy you cannot do anything. In the human body the area to focus power is the lower abdomen (kafuku tanden).

Power focused here is defensive power; power going out is offensive power.

How can you put forth offensive power? The first thing you have to do is to focus the power in your center. Offensive power will naturally flow if you focus your power in the center. That is forceful power (iryoku). It is a condition of focused energy that becomes center energy..... Try to use the energy in the lower abdomen. You can call this energy focused "ki" energy. If you don't have center energy, you are bluffing. Really, you have to develop this energy. The energy will flow naturally if you can focus it in the lower abdomen. If you understand this point, you will understand how to develop your body and mind and how you should train.....Drop your focus to your lower abdomen. If you do that, you'll find your center point and you will produce center energy. If your center is not developed, you won't have ki energy available to project through your fingers.

If you take excess energy from the upper body and train the lower body as in sumo wrestling, and if you train the energy of the lower abdomen, you will develop your center energy. You use that power wherever necessary.

Even though you focus the energy in your lower abdomen, you will not be able to move the energy to the area where you need it right away. You have to think about how you are going to move it. ......At the same moment you meet your opponent, you focus on your abdomen (hara) and project your ki where you need it. The result will be that you will shut down your opponent's power. I understand that as the power of "aiki." I just wanted to point out that it's not a hopeless or obscure task to develop kokyu skills, despite the traditionally voiced obscurities. O-Sensei talked obscurely about the "gods" being involved. Some people talk obscurely about "just relax". Others offer rituals. And so on. From the descriptions, it all sounds like they're doing different things or that they have special approaches that are somehow different, but at heart the steps of all the "different approaches" are the same. I like Inaba's very direct words, in this regard.

Like the development of any skill, you start out with simple steps and go forward (Inaba has some good recommendations involving Sumo, etc., but that's not much of an option to westerners). At first there's not much there (hence a lot of people miss something without immediate and obvious results), but after a while it blossoms into something extraordinary... and within reach of some of the manipulation skills that Shioda, Tohei, and others show.

Notice above in Inaba's comments which were translated at first as "power", but then shifted to "energy". Granted, after a while this skill seems unique and powerful and mysterious enough to perhaps warrant the use of the word "energy", but "power" is an adequate-enough term to start out with. Inaba goes on to recommend:

If you take excess energy from the upper body and train the lower body as in sumo wrestling, and if you train the energy of the lower abdomen, you will develop your center energy. You use that power wherever necessary.

That comment just above pretty much sums up what is probably the best approach and the most accurate comment of what ultimately happens, in the main (there are a number of other things that get involved, but this is the important part). In all kokyu training the basic idea is that the strength of the lower body is transmitted through the relaxed upper body and the "hara" or "Tanden" area is the control point. The trick is that the upper body must be very relaxed so that the mind learns how to handle this new way of movement and to assign "paths" by recruiting lots of small muscles (and the "ki", but that's a complexity we don't need for this suggestion of how to start on the road to this skill)... i.e., you want to avoid use of the strong upper-body primary musculature so the body-mind can re-train. Inaba Sensei suggests something like Sumo, but the idea is to train in a way that uses the lower body and not the upper body... in *all* your movements. So naturally this form of movement "with the center" is something you need to do full time in order to effect the most rapid transition to true "center-powered" movement. Also, if this power is truly to be powerful, you need to strengthen the legs and hips (suwari-waza, anyone?) and you need to learn to let the power flow up not only from the legs but from the ground on which the legs rest. You don't lift anything when you use this kind of power, you push things upward with the ground.

Anyway, that's the best place to start if you're like I was when I joined Aikido and wondered what the first step should be in order to develop this odd sort of power. Go back and re-learn your movements so that every bit of the power your upper body expresses is powered by the lower body. Pretend that your shoulders have been moved from where they are to just below the shoulderblades... i.e., to operate these new shoulders you'll have to use your middle and back rather than your current shoulder muscles. It feels weird and not very productive at first... but isn't that true of most attempts to learn a new skill?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Mark Murray]

Just as an off-note -- what you posted that Inaba Sensei wrote is very close to the same thing that a friend of mine says. Only he studies Yoga. Weird.

Mark

[Mike Sigman]

Just as an off-note -- what you posted that Inaba Sensei wrote is very close to the same thing that a friend of mine says. Only he studies Yoga. Weird. I don't know if your friend knows how to move like this or if he's just parroting some of the "energy" stuff. Anyone can talk the talk. ;) However, this form of movement is very practical and the study of the flows of power from this sort of movement are the basis for acupuncture, etc.... and the original idea was brought to China (and thence to Japan) by people in India who thought this was a very important and practical form of movement. A "natural" form of movement that "puts you in harmony with the way the cosmos moves", in fact.

FWIW

Mike

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

...but the real problem was that I hadn't had anyone actually define the specific part of "aiki" before, the way Inaba did. Using that, I go back and see that Shioda wasn't just "delighting in kokyu tricks", as I earlier said, he was focusing on what "aiki-do" actually meant to him. It's an honest epiphany for me.
:)

...Suddenly I see a whole art built around that concept
;)

...and I see even more clearly than before why just a few techniques are necessary if you have that particular skill.
:)

...The point being that "explosive power" is just one way you can apply this concept (or you can just use it to show off) and that's somewhat aside from "finding the empty spot" (which is important, but more complicated than I'm making it).
:)

...Well, it makes sense, certainly, but it sounds like different usages of the same basic concept that Inaba called "aiki". I.e., once you understand it, you can play variations on the same theme.
:)

...So someone being uke for Tsuki-Kotegaeshi with Shioda might have described a "whirlpool" or whatever feeling, but the essence of what Shioda did would have been this use of "aiki" throughout the throw, regardless of the feeling his particular variation of aiki induced on uke.
:) ...but I do believe that many would benefit if we clarify what is meant in the underlined portion of your last statement.

[Mike Sigman]

Shaun, why don't you post something meaningful? Tell us something about your 'other ways to do it' rather than these silly posts with all the smileys. I.e., if you have something substantive to contribute, please do so.

Mike Sigman

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

Shaun, why don't you post something meaningful. Tell us something about your 'other ways to do it' rather than these silly posts with all the smileys. I.e., if you have something substantive to contribute, please do so.

Mike Sigman


Hi Mike,

I was just acknowledging your conclusions. The smiley face is just agreement. As I have made the mistake in the past, in this case I just didn't want to add anything that had the potential to draw you into a conversation of semantics. As for if I have something substantive... Yes, that would be the part where I mentioned the benefit of clarifying what you meant in the last portion of your last quote in my post.

I liked the first part of what you said there, but felt that others would benefit by fleshing out the details of the latter part.



.


PS - might we see you at the Aiki-Expo?



.

[Mike Sigman]

As for if I have something substantive... Yes, that would be the part where I mentioned the benefit of clarifying what you meant in the last portion of your last quote in my post.

I liked the first part of what you said there, but felt that others would benefit by fleshing out the details of the latter part. I don't see what the question is...you may be reading something into it that's not there.

If someone is taking a force and responding to it in a certain way (i.e., "aiki"), there are multiple variations of aiki or its immediate aftermath that various individuals might utilize. If they do a good aiki technique (as Inaba defined it), then their following and finishing moves may well differ, but that doesn't mean much about the propriety of the aiki technique. In other words, regardless of different feelings *within* the technique of Tada and Yamaguchi, it doesn't necessarily imply they do anything other than aiki. PS - might we see you at the Aiki-Expo? I doubt it. L.A. traffic is not something I get involved in for pleasure. Maybe if it was in Denver or some smaller venue I'd be tempted, but not the major urban cities.

Mike

[James Young]

I doubt it. L.A. traffic is not something I get involved in for pleasure. Maybe if it was in Denver or some smaller venue I'd be tempted, but not the major urban cities.

Don't let the traffic discourage you. The venue at CSU Dominguez Hills is very close to the airport (less than 15 miles I think). So you wouldn't have to really fight too much traffic, if any, to get there.

Getting back to the topic at hand I think I get what you are saying. That is that "aiki" (by the definition given earlier) can be manifested by individuals in various forms of techniques. One can witness someone like Abe-sensei utilizing it with his very subtle and hardly visible movements just as well as someone like Tada-sensei with his larger, sharper, and "explosive" movements utilizing it as well. It's more about what that power is and where it originates from more than the visible form it takes through an individual's technique.

[Mike Sigman]

Getting back to the topic at hand I think I get what you are saying. That is that "aiki" (by the definition given earlier) can be manifested by individuals in various forms of techniques. One can witness someone like Abe-sensei utilizing it with his very subtle and hardly visible movements just as well as someone like Tada-sensei with his larger, sharper, and "explosive" movements utilizing it as well. It's more about what that power is and where it originates from more than the visible form it takes through an individual's technique. Yes, that's right. Let me try, just for the fun of it, to re-state what I'm trying to say:

1. If an Aikidoist has a strategy and tactic of "blending" with an attack and then converting the attack into a throw, etc., it is a nice strategy, but it's not particularly different from a number of other arts' strategies. It also does not explain the times when a punch, body-check, etc., is used. This is pretty low-level as a definition, but in actuality it is what you see most often.

2. If an Aikidoist knows how to generate and use kokyu strength in the above strategy and tactics, it is a lot better, although it really doesn't distinguish Aikido from a number of other martial arts, in principle.

3. If an Aikidoist can instantly manipulate or place his kokyu power in such a way that it combines with uke's force and negates it (as part of the start of the technique), it is a very high-level martial art and worth all the hoopla. Since kokyu and its manipulations would be the power behind checks and punches (in relation to timing, etc.), then the "aiki" is still there and the art is still a legitimately superior art.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

I don't see what the question is...you may be reading something into it that's not there.

If someone is taking a force and responding to it in a certain way (i.e., "aiki"), there are multiple variations of aiki or its immediate aftermath that various individuals might utilize. If they do a good aiki technique (as Inaba defined it), then their following and finishing moves may well differ, but that doesn't mean much about the propriety of the aiki technique. In other words, regardless of different feelings *within* the technique of Tada and Yamaguchi, it doesn't necessarily imply they do anything other than aiki.

Hi Mike,

Sorry I wasn't more specific in either of my first two attempts. You originally said,

...So someone being uke for Tsuki-Kotegaeshi with Shioda might have described a "whirlpool" or whatever feeling, but the essence of what Shioda did would have been this use of "aiki" throughout the throw, regardless of the feeling his particular variation of aiki induced on uke.

I have no questions about either the first part your comments which I quote, above or the more descriptive way you speak about it both in your reply to me, above, and in your response to James Young (hi James). As for the latter part (the underlined part) I wanted to better understand what you meant there. Specifically, I agree about what you say the nage is doing, in terms of aiki, is a continuous, unbroken approach. Therefore, my approach is to effect, or summarizing your words induce a particular feeling in or on uke. For me the effect - whatever that may be, must be maintained with the same continuous, unbroken methodology. I wasn't sure if you were implying that the state of aiki ended within nage or at the point of connection of nage and uke and is being maintained solely by the nage - meaning that the uke's experience might actually vary throughout any one given encounter. Or, perhaps you meant that uke's feeling is based upon any of a number of varying methods employed by individual practitioners each capable of expressing an aiki-response that they (the uke) feel is maintained throughout the encounter. I was wondering whether you agree, or disagree with either of the two, above, scenarios. I just couldn't tell by what you had written.

Looking at your further comments, something else came up for me that I wanted to talk about… Simply speaking, Aiki may be looked at as the relationship between things. It is true that being able to do this, in the manner you specified in your post is a rare and high level thing. It is also true that without this being present, there is no aikido - and on that you and I have never disagreed as far as I can tell, regardless of semantics, or our personal styles of writing. I guess my point is that while what you have pointed to is the precursor to aiki, it is only when it is extended out to include harmonizing with another that it actually becomes aiki. In many ways this may be looked at the next level of aiki, but I believe it is more accurate to state this is where the state of aiki actually begins. To illustrate my point, the moment that uke stops his attack, nage, seeking to maintain aiki, must also cease in his harmony of the attack. This is simply, "a mirror reflects what stands before it" or mushin, if you will. Of course, the nage can still harmonize with uke's new state and in doing so he preserves the state of aiki. However, it is just that there is no aikido in a vacuum, or in a cave, and by extension, one cannot practice aikido by himself.

This is a significant point along the path one must follow towards understanding where ki & kokyu end and aiki and ultimately aikido begin. One can have all the power of ki and kokyu harnessed within themselves to the Nth degree. But, so what? That doesn't mean that they can create a state of aiki, or be able to maintain that state throughout a particularly lengthy encounter with a determined attacker.

Of course, if you agree with me there, then I would be interested to get your thoughts on my next point. This is where I will take head on the question you have as to the originality, or uniqueness of aikido. I am certainly not out to prove it in that light, nor am I able to do so should I even choose to try. However, that doesn't mean that I don't feel that it is original and unique, or that regardless of my feeling, or yours for that matter, that it isn't original and unique.

You wrote:
If an Aikidoist can instantly manipulate or place his kokyu power in such a way that it combines with uke's force and negates it (as part of the start of the technique), it is a very high-level martial art and worth all the hoopla. Since kokyu and its manipulations would be the power behind checks and punches (in relation to timing, etc.), then the "aiki" is still there and the art is still a legitimately superior art.

I am sure that everyone's experience of the art is dependent upon the source to which they go to experience it. I have seen some poor things done on the mat in the name of aikido, and enough has been said by others on this subject (aiki-bunnies, aikido doesn't work, is aikido a martial art…etc, etc.) that I don't need to comment here. However, I can honestly say that my experiences coming from the sources from which I sought it in the past, and seek it even now, have always been exactly the way you have described it, above. That is not to say anything about my particular sources. However, if you had that same experience, albeit from your own sources, and that had been your only experience of the art form, wouldn't you find it strange, as did I, when you encountered comments like (aiki-bunnies, aikido doesn't work, is aikido a martial art…etc, etc.)? Furthermore, had you had experienced aikido in said manner, what you might envision your most recent epiphany, having occurred years before, might have led you to in terms of your understanding of the art as it might very well have revealed itself?



.

[Alex Megann]

...Also, if this power is truly to be powerful, you need to strengthen the legs and hips (suwari-waza, anyone?) and you need to learn to let the power flow up not only from the legs but from the ground on which the legs rest. You don't lift anything when you use this kind of power, you push things upward with the ground.


Shioda Sensei is said to have taught that kokyu power comes from the toes.