Ki - help, anyone?

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[Aikidodo]

Hi there,

As a beginner, I'm still unsure what is really meant by 'ki.' For instance, when doing 1st form sankyo, I've been told, 'send your ki through uke's arm.' What does this really mean? We do some ki development excercises at the dojo, but I actually have no idea what they're meant to do.

Any help would be appreciated, cheers :)

[xuzen]

Hi there,

As a beginner, I'm still unsure what is really meant by 'ki.' For instance, when doing 1st form sankyo, I've been told, 'send your ki through uke's arm.' What does this really mean? We do some ki development exercises at the dojo, but I actually have no idea what they're meant to do.

Any help would be appreciated, cheers :)

When someone who says such thing i.e, "'send your ki through uke's arm", three things come to my mind.

1) The explainator is too mystical. Man with white flowing beard (ala Pak Mei off Kill Bill Vol 1) comes into my mind.
2) The explainator is too lazy to explain the mechanics or
3) The explainator know shit about the technique and uses ki as a quick excuse to move on with the lesson.

Does any of the above profile fit your class explainator, Calum?

Me? I learned sankyo/sankajo by monkey see monkey do. I felt the pain, I know how my wrist was twisted to produce the pain and I replicate it on others.

Boon.

[happysod]

alternatively

4) mention of Ki is just a training short-hand to describe the mechanics and feeling you should have when you're applying the technique.

From your brief description, I presume the instructor is attempting to tell you to project the sankyo "twist" through the arm rather than seeing the arm as the stopping point, rather like when you're told to punch through a target rather than at the target. Ki is also often mixed up with the other old adage of "relax" so you may want to check how much of a death grip you're using when holding the sankyo. Too tight grip, as with a sword, can hinder rather than help the technique.

Having said that, if your techniques are described in terms of "ki", the instructor should at least tell you what they understand by the term.

Boon, I'm working on the beard goddammit, by I'm follicaly stunted chin-wise and the monkeys won't sit still long enough for me...

[Aikidodo]

Xu, the type of Aikido that is studied is Ki-Aikido. The class is in Barrhead a part of Glasgow, and I'm sure if you knew anything about the place, you'd know everything is conveyed pretty directly ;) .

The rest of the class is very practical, there isn't a great deal of airy-fairyness about the class at all. It's just that the word 'ki' is used as directly as anything else - sort of like it's natural to know about it.

It's just the understanding of what it is that's a problem. I'm sure Ki can be explained in physical terms - body mechanics and so on, but I'm still unsure of what the feeling of 'Ki' really is, which brings about the changes in body mechanics.

Cheers!

[Roban]

Hi Calum.

I presume you are at Sensei Andrew's class?

I'm not sure how they operate there but at our dojo under Sensei Eve Aitkenhead we at least get an explanation of what Ki is and therafter are encouraged to develop it by using exercises. I think its significance differs between individuals as everyone sees or feels it a little differently. For me, it comes down to a "feeling" or an "imagining" of energy flows within and from the body. When I get that feeling, I am relaxed and everything sorts of falls into place. I don't fully understand how it works but I know that it does!

Cheers

Rob

[Ed Stansfield]

It's just the understanding of what it is that's a problem. I'm sure Ki can be explained in physical terms - body mechanics and so on, but I'm still unsure of what the feeling of 'Ki' really is, which brings about the changes in body mechanics.



I'm not going to stick my head above the parapet by offering a definition of what the feeling of Ki is, but I feel a bit safer in saying that the purpose of the Ki excercises is to help you develop the feeling of Ki. From a Ki style perspective (one day I'll write a post without saying that) you develop this by getting the feeling of the 4 principles.

So, without applying more names to things and in terms of stuff that you can physically feel on the mat, you could think about:

The feeling that your weight "drops" to your lowest point so that your body feels light but you've got a feeling of stability;

The feeling of being relaxed, but in a "live" way rather than a "dead and floppy" way;

The feeling that if, say, you reach out with your arms then you don't just collapse inwards (unpleasant image) if someone catches and pushes you;

The feeling that all your movements come from your centre and that your whole body moves together as a unit.

So the "feeling of ki" would be having all these together.
[sound of bullets whizzing past ears]

Is that sort of what you meant?


I wouldn't choose to say "send your ki . . ." myself but if people are saying this to you in the dojo then you can always ask them to show you what they mean!

Best,

Ed

[Kevin Temple]

I'd imagine Ki in this context as a sense of power and stability originating from your back foot and pushing forward through your center. Sending your Ki would be the feeling of pushing forward all the way through your body. It's this "kis push" that is being sent into uke's arm.

[kironin]

Xu, the type of Aikido that is studied is Ki-Aikido. The class is in Barrhead a part of Glasgow, and I'm sure if you knew anything about the place, you'd know everything is conveyed pretty directly ;) .


Well then, have you asked ?
I expect my students to ask me these sorts of questions so I can work with them until they start to understand. In fact, I expect them doubt every damn thing I say and I wouldn't have it any other way.

What I can say is if you can't understand what is meant or the connection to ki development exercises, keep training, keep thinking, keep questioning, keep training. You have some discoveries ahead of you.


The rest of the class is very practical, there isn't a great deal of airy-fairyness about the class at all. It's just that the word 'ki' is used as directly as anything else - sort of like it's natural to know about it.

It's just the understanding of what it is that's a problem. I'm sure Ki can be explained in physical terms - body mechanics and so on, but I'm still unsure of what the feeling of 'Ki' really is, which brings about the changes in body mechanics.


Ki is not just physical, it's also mental: mind and body coordination. The whole point of further training is to grok that feeling. You may get flashes of the right feeling, but don't expect to have it all come at once.

If impatient, you could attempt to speed the process up by doing some of the more arduous esoteric practices that Osensei and Tohei Sensei did, but there are no guarantees. :D

[kironin]

I'd imagine Ki in this context as a sense of power and stability originating from your back foot and pushing forward through your center. Sending your Ki would be the feeling of pushing forward all the way through your body. It's this "kis push" that is being sent into uke's arm.

but if you actually push, that potentially creates an opening in your technique that uke could exploit.

[Aikidodo]

Thanks for all the helpful responses everyone!

Actually, a lot of what everyone seems to be describing sounds quite familiar, perhaps I'm just not associating this with 'Ki.' :)

I've a long way to go, but I feel as if I'm getting slightly more comfortable with the principles taught in Aikido. Still, don't mind the newbie asking silly questions, eh? ;)

[Ed Stansfield]

If impatient, you could attempt to speed the process up by doing some of the more arduous esoteric practices that Osensei and Tohei Sensei did, but there are no guarantees. :D

Yes, and remember:

No one except O Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow.

(Tohei sensei interviewed in Aikido Journal)


So, no pressure then :)


Best,

Ed

[Bronson]

As a beginner, I'm still unsure what is really meant by 'ki.'

Good, if you were sure you could probably stop studying :)

I've been told, 'send your ki through uke's arm.' What does this really mean?

I say this a lot....ASK YOUR SENSEI. We will all have different working definitions of what ki is, or wether we even think it should be mentioned (as evidenced by one of our resident Yoshi-orcs Boon :D ). You should be focusing on the way your Sensei wants you to work with it. If you have no idea what you should be doing ask a Sempai or the Sensei after/before class, that is what they are there for. I recommend before class because then they might teach a whole class on it :D


We do some ki development excercises at the dojo, but I actually have no idea what they're meant to do.

Again...ASK YOUR SENSEI.

Bronson

[bkedelen]

I plan to enjoy a whole lifetime of not understanding ki.

[MaryKaye]

In positions where you are holding uke, or uke is holding you, and you want him to move, beginners generally focus on moving the part they're holding. It doesn't work. One of the things my Ki Society dojo means by "extend ki" is to focus on partner's whole self, not the bit you have hold of. You can promote this by not looking at or thinking hard about the held bit. Some people find it helpful to think about partner's whole body; others focus on how they are moving their own body. Either one works better than thinking about the point of contact.

There is also something more mechanical, and (for me) trickier going on. If you apply tension to uke's arm in the wrong way, you just twist their wrist. If you apply it in a better way, things lock up all the way up their arm and into their shoulder, even beyond; this is a lot more effective. "Extend ki" can also mean "get the torque right." (Not a good use of the term, in my opinion, but there it is. I've never heard a good explanation of how to do this.)

A practice for this is for uke to put his hand on your shoulder from the front. Cover his hand with yours to keep it in place, and try to unbalance him just by shifting your body. If you shift in a direction that causes the desired locking-up, it can be done; otherwise it seems quite impossible. (I learned this from an Aikikai teacher but I think it's just as applicable to Ki Society.)

Mary Kaye

[tedehara]

Hi there,

As a beginner, I'm still unsure what is really meant by 'ki.' For instance, when doing 1st form sankyo, I've been told, 'send your ki through uke's arm.' What does this really mean? We do some ki development excercises at the dojo, but I actually have no idea what they're meant to do.

Any help would be appreciated, cheers :)When you're holding a sword forward in the guard position, you should be extending ki through the sword tip. Similarly, when you're holding someone in sankyo and you have their elbow pointing up, you should be extending your ki through their arm out from their elbow. By extending ki through the sword, it stops being a tool and becomes an extension of your body. By extending ki through their arm and out the elbow, you and your uke become one unit.

Instead of thinking in esoteric terms like ki, think of this as a way to focus your mind. You want your will, intention, thought or mind to travel through the sword tip or through the arm and out the elbow.

[Rupert Atkinson]

When someone says extend your ki though your arm, it usually translates as - do it like this. Just watch what he does - he has likely convinced himself some magical substabnce emanates from his arm when in reality, he is just extending it, and directing the force generated from that extension into your arm/joint/body. You could transcribe the word force in the last sentence to energy, and then to ki. That is likely what he is trying to explain since using the word force might make you use strength whereas the idea is to do it with less, hence the mystical notions.

Extending ki through the sword tip translates as 'focus your extension on your opponent.'

There is also a simple rule - the more a person waffles on about ki, the less likely he is to be able to tell you what it is. Personally, I turn off. Therefore, don't ask - just watch and copy.

I wish people would just speak English.

[Aikidodo]

Too right! ;)

Again, thanks for all the responses everyone, that's cleared things up quite a bit - I never expected this much help :)

[Eddie deGuzman]

Hi folks,

I spent some time in a dojo that spoke of ki often. Likewise, I spoke of it often. When I came to Japan, I felt it for the first time. The first two years I persistently asked for explanations of ki, yet all were hazy and obscure with no straight answer. In my 3rd year, my Japanese ability took a turn for the better, yet I stopped asking so many questions because I finally began to grasp the concept through training, not talking.

When one is not given a straightforward answer, one tends to blame the explanation, and perhaps doubt the concept altogether. I certainly am guilty of this.

What changed for me, is that I came to believe that ki is a feeling, and like love or hate, it is difficult to describe, yet quite possible to express. Describing being happy might take some time, yet a big grin on your face says it all. :)

Most practioners in the dojo where I practice say they do not understand ki. Yet most are 4th dan and beyond. And they are excellent aikidoka.

Visualizing helps, yet it is internal and still the product of your mind and only your mind. This idea, of course, is of no use to someone who has no idea of what ki is. Catch 22 so to speak. Yet, that is typically how it evolves. Maybe these ideas seem mystical or mysterious. They are certainly frustrating if nothing else. Even so, this is my experience and my understanding of it.

I also think of ki as a skill, and as such it can be developed. Those who have come before can only guide us as best they can, and in turn, we can only do the same. Some people being better teachers, some being better learners, yet understanding and developing ki is unquestionably difficult and a long road, but not impossible.

Some visualizations I have heard/used...

continuously flowing water
a thread connecting you and your partner
balls of fire
big rocks
the earth
your partner not there at all
circles, circles, circles

But then again, you may be one who does not believe that ki exists. Even so, with practice, time and patience, we all improve.

Good luck,
Eddie

[xuzen]

...<snip>...
Boon, I'm working on the beard goddammit, by I'm follicaly stunted chin-wise and the monkeys won't sit still long enough for me...
Ian, I am glad you see the humour in my post, however dry it is. Thank you.

Xu, the type of Aikido that is studied is Ki-Aikido. The class is in Barrhead a part of Glasgow, and I'm sure if you knew anything about the place, you'd know everything is conveyed pretty directly .

The rest of the class is very practical, there isn't a great deal of airy-fairyness about the class at all. It's just that the word 'ki' is used as directly as anything else - sort of like it's natural to know about it.

It's just the understanding of what it is that's a problem. I'm sure Ki can be explained in physical terms - body mechanics and so on, but I'm still unsure of what the feeling of 'Ki' really is, which brings about the changes in body mechanics.
Ki Society! I knew it. Me Yoshin-Orge, tiny brain, no understand no ki. And Calum, I hope you see it from a humour point of view. Thanks. ;)

Boon.

[kironin]

Some visualizations I have heard/used...

continuously flowing water
a thread connecting you and your partner
balls of fire
big rocks
the earth
your partner not there at all
circles, circles, circles

But then again, you may be one who does not believe that ki exists. Even so, with practice, time and patience, we all improve.

Good luck,
Eddie


Visualizations are really just a starting point. Also a teacher needs to remember that only a portion of students have a dominant visual learning style (it is claimed that around a third of the general population does not). Kinaesthetic learners like me would seem to be the ones most likely to thrive in aikido (hey Jun, How about a poll? Which do you feel you is your predominant learning style: Visual, Auditory, Kinaesthetic.)

as far as believing ki exists, everyone doing aikido that is on one of many paths going in the right general direction actually does, they are just tacking another name to the paradigm.

ki exists and is as real to humans as love.

I could strip down the concept of 'love' into a reductionistic description of behavorial psychology and neuroendocrinology,
but I doubt that would convey the feeling of someone experiencing it.

[rob_liberti]

Visual, Auditory, Kinaesthetic.: Cycling all three works best for me in learning and teaching.

I agree that the reductionistic approach is invalid for such a concept. I see mind (which includes time and Ki) as a forth dimension fully contained by the physical world - and yet I see that dimension as what is driving the world of 3 physical dimensions... It works for me. :)

- Rob

[Eddie deGuzman]

Learning style is a valid point. Seeing and feeling are light years apart. But I would hope that a teacher would explain the concept of ki, as best they can, to beginning students before asking them to "extend their ki" through sankyo or any other technique.

As Kinonin stated, visualizations are a starting point, and IMO, appropriate for those who have, as Aikidodo stated in the original post, no idea of what ki is or what ki development exercises are supposed to do.

I don't think, however, that Aikidodo's sankyo will improve much at this stage by telling him that ki is love. But I could be wrong. We do, afterall, all learn differently. :)

Eddie

[tedehara]

When someone says extend your ki though your arm, it usually translates as - do it like this. Just watch what he does - he has likely convinced himself some magical substance emanates from his arm when in reality, he is just extending it, and directing the force generated from that extension into your arm/joint/body. You could transcribe the word force in the last sentence to energy, and then to ki. That is likely what he is trying to explain since using the word force might make you use strength whereas the idea is to do it with less, hence the mystical notions.

Extending ki through the sword tip translates as 'focus your extension on your opponent.'

There is also a simple rule - the more a person waffles on about ki, the less likely he is to be able to tell you what it is. Personally, I turn off. Therefore, don't ask - just watch and copy.

I wish people would just speak English.
You are correct in that I am not using general English to explain what is happening. I am actually using a specific terminology. Since the questioner is studying with the Ki Society, he should know what examples go with what explanations I am giving. When you study with the Ki Society you are taught a specific vocabulary to describe specific situations.

When I mentioned you need to extend ki through the sword and out from the tip, there is the article Calmness (http://www.aikiweb.com/spiritual/reed1.html) from this web site that describes it. As long as I am mentioning articles on this web site, there is A Note on Ki (http://www.aikiweb.com/spiritual/ki.html) that explains the "realist" definition of ki I suggested.

I've been taught that the body has substance. It has mass, shape and color. The mind has no substance. It has no mass, shape or color. When you watch someone do aikido, you're watching their body move. However you can't peer into their mind. So when you're watching someone do aikido, you're actually watching one tenth of what is occurring. Like an iceberg, the other nine tenths remains hidden. This makes learning only by pure repetition extremely difficult.

[Mike Sigman]

As a beginner, I'm still unsure what is really meant by 'ki.' For instance, when doing 1st form sankyo, I've been told, 'send your ki through uke's arm.' What does this really mean? I'd say first of all that anyone talking about ki or qi should realize that it's a catch-all term that was used in ancient times to explain any and *all* unknown forces: lightning, effects of oxygen in air, sustenance from food, medicinal effects of plants, magic tricks, getting "warmed up" in exercise, where the unusually strong kid in the sixth grade got his strength (hereditary qi), and so on. So when someone says "what is ki", you have to realize that it's a word used in a different paradigm than our western science to understand how things work. However, ki theory does not withstand rigorous scrutiny and it's explicative only, not predictive. Don't put your faith in the existence of a mysterious force, just yet.

So when you ask about "extend ki" in a physical situation, you're essentially being asked to reproduce some narrow range of phenomena that you may or may not have felt and you should ask for a demonstration of how to do them. Don't be afraid to mention that you didn't see the emperor's clothes. And don't always buy the idea that "you will understand when the time is right, my son", either.

Physical ki skills something that must be developed and trained over time. You may have *some* of what are considered ki skills in a physical emergency, but you have to understand that there are several skills that are lumped into the substantive idea of "ki" that you demonstrate out on the mat and you don't get most of those skills without knowing what you're doing and with practicing.

There's a very bad habit in ki discussions of treating it like a sacred topic that must not be questioned too closely or you'll be frowned upon by your peer group. Ask the questions. Ask your instructor to show you and to show you how to do it rather than just rotely following the rituals. Most of the people who are being vague simply don't know but they don't want to say that while they're wearing black culottes. ;)


FWIW

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Calum used the phrase "send your ki" in relation to his sankyo question. It brings to mind the vagueness in a lot of these terms. For instance, instead of "ki", I might have said "kokyu ryoku" to describe what is actually going on, since "kokyu" is more the physical application of ki, although "ki" is technically correct because you would have to "send" the ki for the kokyu to be there.

"Send" or "extend" or "apply" or "bring" are verbs that you might commonly hear about using ki-strength skills. Here's a videoclip of O-Sensei demonstrating that when he applies his downward power (http://www.neijia.com/jotrick1.avi) it is "extended" along the length of the weapon, not just localized near his hand.

So if Calum is being directed to "send" his ki, is "send" a good word for what is actually happening? Any thoughts to help clarify for Calum?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[frank]

Hi there,

As a beginner, I'm still unsure what is really meant by 'ki.' For instance, when doing 1st form sankyo, I've been told, 'send your ki through uke's arm.' What does this really mean? We do some ki development excercises at the dojo, but I actually have no idea what they're meant to do.

Any help would be appreciated, cheers :)

extend your mind . relax . you will get it
arigato tomodachi

[lbb]

extend your mind . relax . you will get it
arigato tomodachi

He probably either got it long ago, or he stopped bothering. That's a 4-year-old thread. :D