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Thor's Hammer
04-10-2005, 12:13 AM
Hey- I wondered what the usefulness or practicality is of learning to breakfall and land standing or crouched? Theoretically wouldn't this be safer and also give faster recovery in a violent situation? Does anyone have any experience with it?

Devin McDowell
04-10-2005, 08:41 AM
I've done it when I've been thrown over the nage's shoulder. All you have to do is stick your feet down. You're still not in a good position, but at least you aren't on the ground.

Eddie deGuzman
04-10-2005, 10:07 AM
Hey guys,

I've studied two styles of aikido. In the first style, we never stood up. The second style, where I continue to study, we always stand up(When possible that is :eek: ). Having done both, I prefer standing. You can protect yourself if need be and it's a heck of a lot easier on the body, less impact.

Eddie

Devin McDowell
04-10-2005, 01:24 PM
Bryan, do you do rolls in your dojo? Where I study (and basically all aikido I've seen) the uke hits the ground in a roll and come's up on their feet. Is that the kind of thing you mean?

Bronson
04-10-2005, 10:02 PM
I thought he meant more of a "flip" type thing where you actually land on your feet, i.e. the feet are the first and only thing to hit the ground.

If this isn't correct Bryan please fix it for me :D

Bronson

Tim Griffiths
04-11-2005, 04:21 AM
1. You can land on your feet from a high breakfall (a high jujinage, for example), but IMO only IF the tori lets you, i.e. doesn't contine the power of the throw down into the mat.

2. Its not very safe to practice this, especially on a soft surface, with a higher chance of twisted ankles and knees, and not learning to take the impact with the body correctly. Definitely not safer to practice.

3. Throwing in a way which allows uke to land back on their feet is of limited usefulness from a self-defense point of view..:)

4. On the other hand, I did have two small and light students who had a nice trick for demos - doing a high jujinage throw, allowing uke to land on their feet, which then gives uke the chance to throw tori, also in jujinage. They could flip-flop the length of the mat this way. Completely useless, but pretty.

Train well,

Tim

ian
04-11-2005, 08:25 AM
rolling is much better for you (brain and your eyes - due to displaced lenses) than hitting the mat. If you can, you should always roll. Ideally you get up ASAP, but if not you should be able to roll into a crouched position anyway (with three points on contact - two feet and a knee), so you can fight. If someone throws you, it is often a precursor to a kick in the head.

I'd agree, that you cannot land on your feet unless nage wants you to (if people want to throw you to damage you, they will direct your head, neck or back towards the mat).

Ron Tisdale
04-11-2005, 10:01 AM
I might go a step further...you can not roll unless shite wants you to...as in shite can determine that you *will* do a breakfall as opposed to a roll. While you can raise your level of ability as to being able to roll out of techniques that you once had to breakfall from, there is an end to how high you can go with that. I would suggest looking into rolling and coming back to your feet as quickly as possible and breakfalling the same way (think about one leg bent, the other straight, and pushing off of the bent leg into the straight leg). This will also create more distance between you and shite, and increase the time before the next throw (or attack).

Ron

Zoli Elo
04-11-2005, 12:04 PM
The only common technique, that I recall, found in aikido in which landing on the soles of one's feet is the optimal option is ganseki-otoshi. Basically, it is either feet or face; in that case.

I agree with Ron, as always sound advice.

P.S. In Shorinji Kempo, landing on one's heels is a "trick" that is often used to slow the impact on hard surfaces...

Edit: There are also several common variations on shiho-nage in with a similar sole of the feet landing is preferable.

Ketsan
04-11-2005, 05:48 PM
I tend to instinctively do it, it's something I have to deliberately suppress during training. Hip throws for example generally cause me to flip my legs over so that even the most powerful throw puts me on my feet. Kote Gaeshi I think automatically leads you into a kneeling position.

Rupert Atkinson
04-12-2005, 03:14 AM
One style of Jujutsu in the UK have a land-on-the-feet tactic against simple hips throws etc. You can get quite good at it pretty quickly - there is no flip as such, just a partial sideways twist out. But after getting accustomed to it you can modify your throw and ... well, do a better throw.

Ketsan
04-12-2005, 05:03 AM
I sorta curl into a ball, then use my hips to, roll I suppose, over tori. Although sometimes this causes tori to unbalance and fall over.

Ben Joiner
04-14-2005, 10:45 AM
Be carefull when trying this people, as it can be quite jarring. Tried landing on my my feet when being flipped at training on Monday before reading this article. I managed it, but was so surprised that I landed poorly and twisted my ankle.:-(

Zoli Elo
04-14-2005, 08:31 PM
Yikes, yeah, be carefull...

Randathamane
04-20-2005, 09:09 AM
Hey- I wondered what the usefulness or practicality is of learning to breakfall and land standing or crouched? Theoretically wouldn't this be safer and also give faster recovery in a violent situation? Does anyone have any experience with it?

A guy at my fencing class showed me a form of Ukemi that i will always remember.

As you fall and tuck your foot, go over until you are on your back and your legs are goung over your head. Place both hands on the ground and kcik and push up at the same time.
Its kind of hard to explain, but you hop up into the air after completing a full backward ukemi and land on your feet- The kick is to remove a potnetial attacker from behind you as well as to restore ballance when you push up. imposible in a crowded dogo, but practical when taking a fall anywhere else.


:ai: :ki: :do:

Ron Tisdale
04-20-2005, 09:48 AM
I had someone in a dojo do that once...if the person who threw you is paying attention, all they have to do is enter to the side, and use their foot on your elbow while you try to push off with your hands to stop you getting up. I wouldn't advise it...

Ron

jonreading
04-20-2005, 12:34 PM
I am all for exotic ukemi but I usually don't promote ukemi that involve immediately standing or returning to a fighting position. Here's why:
1. In a fighting situation, a throw will likely be directed to hurt, not to provide an opening to take ukemi.
2. In a dojo situation, surrounding students may become involved due to proximity, which is dangerous.
3. The act can be interpreted as defiance, which is a sign of disrespect in some dojo.

In general, I find that continuing ukemi into a fighting position during practice signifies that you are still willing to fight. Sometimes this is good for training, sometimes it causes confusion. I guess my rule of thumb is know why you are doing it and when it's appropriate.

I once saw a seminar where sensei was teaching tachidori. Sensei was taking the sword, then pursuing uke to sword-point. During practice one of the students attempted ukemi into a standing position and was solidly thwacked on the head as he stood up into the bokken.

Ron Tisdale
04-20-2005, 12:36 PM
:) Yah, definately not advisable... :)

RT

Eddie deGuzman
04-23-2005, 11:45 AM
As you fall and tuck your foot, go over until you are on your back and your legs are goung over your head. Place both hands on the ground and kcik and push up at the same time.

:ai: :ki: :do:[/QUOTE]

Sounds to me like a backward extension, a gymnastic move taught in P.E. class. :)

Eddie

gooz6584
04-24-2005, 11:20 AM
hey, did'nt you teach h&pe? or at least major in it?

gooz6584
04-24-2005, 11:27 AM
Hey guys,

I've studied two styles of aikido. In the first style, we never stood up. The second style, where I continue to study, we always stand up(When possible that is :eek: ). Having done both, I prefer standing. You can protect yourself if need be and it's a heck of a lot easier on the body, less impact.

Eddie
try reading your incoming private messages.

Simbo
04-24-2005, 08:59 PM
Back when I took Judo, 6+yrs ago. Our sensie showed us a neat little trick kinda like what I read into what you're wondering about. But basically when you were thrown you kind of did a cart-wheel and landed on your feet. Like normally you use two hands for a cart-wheel, but when thrownthe one hands on the ground and the other is tangled up with the thrower. I don't remember exactly but I do remember it a little. I think he didn't advise it in normal practice though because of the increased risk of injury. But it was neat demonstration move at the least.

jester
04-26-2005, 11:16 AM
An instant is all you have to be able to fall safely and correctly. If you try to learn all these different ways to fall (crouching, standing etc), how will your subconscious know which one to do in a crisis? You should learn a basic fall so no matter what happens, you will instinctively do the right thing. I believe in keeping ukemi simple.

Falling safely is what will save you from being injured. Landing in a crouched position seems like trouble waiting to happen. If you are a little off, you can break an ankle etc.

paw
04-26-2005, 12:45 PM
Back when I took Judo, 6+yrs ago. Our sensie showed us a neat little trick kinda like what I read into what you're wondering about. But basically when you were thrown you kind of did a cart-wheel and landed on your feet.

It sounds like you are describing "turning out"... a method of taking ukemi in such a way to avoid landing on your back (and thus avoiding a score).

Gerald Lafon (http://www.judoamerica.com/coaches/ukemi/) has written an article about this, including training methods and benefits.

Regards,

Paul

jester
04-26-2005, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the link Paul. I wish he had an animation, because I can't envision what he's talking about.

bkedelen
04-26-2005, 05:16 PM
I have been known to land in a standing or kneeling position from a vigorous throw. I would disagree with Tim's assessment that landing standing or kneeling is simply part of a collection of differentiable ways to fall (which would ultimately lead to midair confusion). I believe this kind of falling is a natural extension of the basic ukemi. All ukemi (more practically forward ukemi) seems to me to be a technique forming a continuum depending on your available resources: distance, height, forward velocity, rotational velocity, foot position, obstacles, if your hands are being held, and if you can grasp or slide against nage. Mastering basic ukemi is being able to perform safe, simple falls regardless of the combination of circumstances you encounter. Such a fall may vary greatly depending on not just the circumstances but the physique and morpohology of the ukemi practitioner. I am a general Aikikai student, and I understand that other styles may separate and categorize ukemi variations, but in my experience tobu ukemi, soft breakfalls, and upright landings are all manifestations of not waiting to touch the mat before performing the basic ukemi that I always use. Essentially, I feel that there is more in common between my forward rolls and my tobu ukemi than there is in common between my forward rolls and the next guy's forward rolls.

Ron Tisdale
04-27-2005, 10:48 AM
Hi Benjamin,

Did I train with you this past weekend at your spring seminar?

Ron

jester
04-27-2005, 11:36 AM
You have a point Benjamin, but I am from the keep it simple school of thought. I learned basic judo style break falls. When I trained with some Aikikai students, I was introduced to other ways to fall, but I didn't care for them that much.

bkedelen
04-27-2005, 12:30 PM
Indeed it was my pleasure to train with you last weekend, Ron.