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thomas_dixon
04-09-2005, 05:18 AM
found this on Bullshido.com posted by masoyama:

http://www.chidokai.org/

Check out the "History" page, where you can read all about, "Osensei Rosen".

You can then of course go on to read about the $140 a month charge, and the lack of contact sparring, etc. until two years of practice.

May I hear your thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

syraikidoka
04-09-2005, 10:18 AM
Maybe I am not seeing something here, but why exactly are you singling out this website and dojo to dump on?

Even though I am skeptical of anyone who starts their own system, it does not seem that he has drastically changed what he was taught by his instructors.

Are you up in arms that he has called himself "Osensei"? Im pretty sure that his ryu has nothing to do with Aikido and in fact "O-Sensei" just means great teacher. Its not like he is calling himself Ueshiba. He had to pick a title for himself and obviously he settled on that one. It is no more or less pompous than "Soke" or "Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes" (Flintstones Reference). Its just a title.

And 140 bucks for unlimited practice and 4 private sessions a month...I don't call that too bad. Further, from a business standpoint, if the market allows it - good for him. If not, he will have to lower prices. Basic supply and demand

And to your other gripes, maybe his dojo isn't for you but "live and let live" or "learn and let teach"

Respectfully,

Syraikidoka

George S. Ledyard
04-09-2005, 10:39 AM
Maybe I am not seeing something here, but why exactly are you singling out this website and dojo to dump on?

Even though I am skeptical of anyone who starts their own system, it does not seem that he has drastically changed what he was taught by his instructors.

Are you up in arms that he has called himself "Osensei"? Im pretty sure that his ryu has nothing to do with Aikido and in fact "O-Sensei" just means great teacher. Its not like he is calling himself Ueshiba. He had to pick a title for himself and obviously he settled on that one. It is no more or less pompous than "Soke" or "Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes" (Flintstones Reference). Its just a title.

And 140 bucks for unlimited practice and 4 private sessions a month...I don't call that too bad. Further, from a business standpoint, if the market allows it - good for him. If not, he will have to lower prices. Basic supply and demand

And to your other gripes, maybe his dojo isn't for you but "live and let live" or "learn and let teach"

Respectfully,

Syraikidoka
The national average for martial arts instruction now is about $120 per month so this guy is just on the high side.

senshincenter
04-09-2005, 11:33 AM
Hi George,

Does that average include four private lessons a month? Every place I knew would have had four private lessons at least equaling around $120 - not counting the regular dojo membership. When I was in my Kenpo federation, the rank and title scale of my person had private lessons going for $100 an hour - something I never charged (since I didn't charge at all) but there it was. This guy seems to be charging something like $5 a private lesson - that doesn't sound too bad at all. Do you happen to know what the average private lesson fee is for martial arts instruction?

curious,
dmv

JayRhone
04-09-2005, 07:55 PM
I know my old school used to charge something like $40 an hour and now that it's bigger I believe it's more around $60-80. Private lessons in utah are up there. to. much. for. me :confused:
JayR

thomas_dixon
04-09-2005, 10:41 PM
Maybe I am not seeing something here, but why exactly are you singling out this website and dojo to dump on?

Even though I am skeptical of anyone who starts their own system, it does not seem that he has drastically changed what he was taught by his instructors.

Are you up in arms that he has called himself "Osensei"? Im pretty sure that his ryu has nothing to do with Aikido and in fact "O-Sensei" just means great teacher. Its not like he is calling himself Ueshiba. He had to pick a title for himself and obviously he settled on that one. It is no more or less pompous than "Soke" or "Grand Poobah of the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes" (Flintstones Reference). Its just a title.

And 140 bucks for unlimited practice and 4 private sessions a month...I don't call that too bad. Further, from a business standpoint, if the market allows it - good for him. If not, he will have to lower prices. Basic supply and demand

And to your other gripes, maybe his dojo isn't for you but "live and let live" or "learn and let teach"

Respectfully,

Syraikidoka

Can you think of any other martial art, where the founder is commonly referred to as "O-Sensei"? It's basically just "Soke" repackaged and spit back out.

The average is in fact, $60-$100 a month. $140 a month for a non-traditional, non-certifiable system with NO sparring (or "contact" for that matter) for 2 years...C'mon now. Let's put on our thinking caps.

My other gripes? Please. If you want people going around sucking the cash out of susceptible and unknowing people's pockets, go right ahead, but it doesn't make you part of the solution, it makes you part of the problem. I figured the people here would feel at least a little umcomfortable that possible McDojos were moving on from "Soke", "Grand Master", etc. to "O-Sensei", which is undoubtedly, no matter the meaning associated with Aikido, and linked by common sense to said art. Guess I was wrong.

Mashu
04-09-2005, 11:09 PM
What can anyone really do unless he breaks the law?

From the site:Our adult advanced ranked students spar using no protective equipment and hair pulling, eye gauging, chokes, joint locks, and strikes to the groin are encouraged.

Might be worth it just to watch a class. :crazy:

senshincenter
04-09-2005, 11:10 PM
Well, I'm not out to debate the merits of the so-called McDojo, and/or to discredit or credit any school as being one, and I certainly don't know enough information to state with any surety what the average dojo dues is per month - since I know of no study claiming such data - so I'm not out to really debate anything here. However, I can say that there are indeed other arts, some even traditional, that do indeed refer to their founder as "Osensei" on a regular basis. If you do a google search, I'm sure you will come across many of them since I'm sure they are not hiding themselves and/or hiding the fact that they employ this term as a Japanese word used to refer to someone as a founder and/or as someone worthy of great respect, etc.

dmv

thomas_dixon
04-09-2005, 11:17 PM
What can anyone really do unless he breaks the law?

From the site:

Might be worth it just to watch a class. :crazy:


If that were the case they're be a bunch of bald, blind, impotent douches slapping at each other.

Mashu
04-09-2005, 11:20 PM
Well, I guess the matter will resolve itself eventually then. :)

thomas_dixon
04-09-2005, 11:31 PM
Well, I guess the matter will resolve itself eventually then. :)


Good point.

Rupert Atkinson
04-10-2005, 01:19 AM
deleted

George S. Ledyard
04-10-2005, 10:44 AM
Hi George,

Does that average include four private lessons a month? Every place I knew would have had four private lessons at least equaling around $120 - not counting the regular dojo membership. When I was in my Kenpo federation, the rank and title scale of my person had private lessons going for $100 an hour - something I never charged (since I didn't charge at all) but there it was. This guy seems to be charging something like $5 a private lesson - that doesn't sound too bad at all. Do you happen to know what the average private lesson fee is for martial arts instruction?

curious,
dmv

No, I don't think that would cover a bunch of privates. It's just an average so the folks paying on the high end are doing privates, are in the Black Belt Club, etc. The numbers came out of one of the numerous trade journals we all get because we have dojos. I don't have any reason to disbelieve it. One of my students got involved with the Oom Yung Do folks and was paying $250 / month till he wised up. The "Temple Kung Fu dojo chain here in town won't even tell you what their actual dues are till after you complete their Trial Membership...

Dominic Toupin
04-10-2005, 10:49 AM
In a karate organization that I know, a grade committee give traditional rank but also title. When you pass your shodan exam, you are called "Sensei". When you start your own dojo, give good classes, maintain a intensive practice, when you improve and pass another degree etc. you can get another title in order Osensei, Shihan, Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi. It just a matter of recognition...

p00kiethebear
04-10-2005, 06:35 PM
how is 140$ un reasonable at all? If the guy was a fraud i could understand but...

It's the saddest thing that a plumber who spends 2 years as an apprentice can be making 100$ an hour right when they enter the working world. But martial artists who have dedicated their entire lives to something that is arguably, more valuable, get screwed and tend to make very little money at all.

I'm not saying that martial arts instructors should be rich. But you really can't put a price on the kind of things we teach in our dojos.

David Yap
04-10-2005, 07:22 PM
In a karate organization that I know, a grade committee give traditional rank but also title. When you pass your shodan exam, you are called "Sensei". When you start your own dojo, give good classes, maintain a intensive practice, when you improve and pass another degree etc. you can get another title in order Osensei, Shihan, Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi. It just a matter of recognition...

LOL. Thanks, Dominic, for starting my day on humorous mode. I wonder why the Chinese MA system doesn't have this string of titles.

The only school that I know that used the title "O Sensei" is the Shotokan/Shotokai. They referred Gichin Funakoshi as O sensei because there was two Funakoshi teaching at that time; the students referred his son, Giko Funakoshi, as Waka sensei. Both father and son were masters (meigin) in their own standing. Mas Oyama, founder of Kyokushin karate, even spoke highly of the son in his biography. In the traditional way, recognition came from the community at large and not just from within ones school or style.

Regards

David Y

Bronson
04-10-2005, 09:43 PM
how is 140$ un reasonable at all?

I guess it would really depend on the cost of living in your area. Here $140/month would be considered unreasonable. 2 1/2-3 hours away in Chicago it would probably be more acceptable.

Bronson

senshincenter
04-10-2005, 10:00 PM
Our dues is suggested at $90 for a single adult, $50 for students, and $150 for two or more family members. Dues aren't delineated on any kind of per hour basis - it's more like what it takes to keep the school running and growing - so most members actually contribute more than the suggested amount each month, and we have classes about three hours per day for every member. But here in Santa Barbara, there are quite a few other dojo that are either at $140 per month for a single adult and/or right up there (if not more). So I guess Santa Barbara is another one of those areas where such an amount (i.e. $140) is not "too out of the question." It does seem that place is relative and relevant.

thomas_dixon
04-12-2005, 10:26 AM
This dojo is in a rich area, aka, Scottsdale, AZ[i believe] (much like Suburbian chicago or Santa Barbara), so thats probably why his rates are $140.

Dominic Toupin
04-21-2005, 08:38 PM
LOL. Thanks, Dominic, for starting my day on humorous mode. I wonder why the Chinese MA system doesn't have this string of titles.


What is in that sentence that makes you so happy ???

Cyrijl
04-22-2005, 08:01 AM
the system may be silly and ineffective, but that does not make the guy necessarily a fraud

Nick Simpson
04-22-2005, 09:15 AM
Aikido sounds like a very expensive buisness in america, I and most people I train with wouldnt be able to pay prices like those

Nick Simpson
04-22-2005, 09:37 AM
Looks like theyve got a nice training area and a lot of good ideas, such as the after school activities for kids and stuff. The only things that ring alarm bells with me are the cost, the school fees seem to be slightly higher than most aikido tuition ive heard of in the US, but the afterschool thing is damn expensive. I suppose becuase its being run more as a babysitting service than anything else.

The other thing is the guys title as O'sensei and his being in the martial arts for twenty years. If he stuck at one style for 20 years that would prolly put him at about 3rd or 4th dan, maybe 5th dan tops. But hes jumped around between 3 or 4 styles. Maybe he is a great teacher but I just really dislike these types of instructors with their jumped up titles and delusions of grandeur.

Mike Sigman
04-22-2005, 10:05 AM
Aikido sounds like a very expensive buisness in america, I and most people I train with wouldnt be able to pay prices like those At the current exchange rate, it only works out to 5 quid a month, Nick. ;)

Nick Simpson
04-22-2005, 11:12 AM
Haha, I know the pounds supposed to be strong at the moment Mike, but... :freaky:

MatthewJones
04-22-2005, 11:45 AM
The guy is a joke it is obvious, I'm tempted to just leave it at that, the unfortunate thing is that people might not be as savvy to this and fall for the marketing crap.

I would never train with someone who refers to themselves as sensei, but that is just me.

Michael Rosen
05-15-2005, 01:55 PM
Greetings fellow martial artists! My name is Michael Rosen and I was encouraged to join this forum due to the fact that there seemed to be quite a good discussion, although erroneous in most accounts, about my teaching and my ryu.

I am thankful, and surprised, to learn that the ideas and motives of an insignificant person such as myself have been contemplated by so many! However, I did feel that it would be appropriate to clarify a few things, although I doubt if any of the same people who presumed to judge me will take the time to read this.

But first let me say that my Japanese language skills are not so great as to make presumptions, however I have found that many others grossly misinterpret and over romanticize the language. I apologize in advance for any errors on my part, and welcome knowledgeable direction.

I never presumed to call myself Osensei. I was first called Osensei by a wonderful Japanese woman whose son I had been teaching for some time. When I presumed to correct her, she kindly let me know that as there were several teachers of the system which I was teaching, and all of them had been taught by me, I was the teacher of teachers, or the head teacher. She went on to state that as the founder of the system, with no other direct teachers above me, the title of Osensei was indeed correct. She continued to press the point by saying that, over the many years of our relationship, she had found that my teachings transcended the simple concepts of my art and directed students toward a truer understanding of themselves and their place in the community. This, she said, was the main reason that she addressed me as Osensei. I was both humbled and honored to receive her compliment. Other students began to address me in this way, and I would laugh it off with such remarks as “are you saying I am the fattest of teachers?” (O sensei).

In my twenty five years of the study and practice of martial arts, I have found that rank and title are thrown around like so much fertilizer within the systems. I have tried to stay true to the traditions, and according to Professor Sig Kufferath (Dan Zan Ryu), no longer with us in body, I had done a decent job of it. I knew that creating a style would open myself and my students to ridicule, but I also new that anyone who had become familiar with my methods and my system, were able to appreciate it.

There were many other errors in the conversation I read in the Aikiweb forum, but as the entire forum was based upon what was obviously a rudimentary browsing of the ChiDoKai web site, I will address those issues as seriously interested martial artists bring them directly to my attention.

I will close, however, be stating that I do appreciate those teachers who do not charge for their teachings. I myself have given away over $100,000 dollars worth of classes in the past ten years to low income children and to children who were referred to me with Autism and Downs Syndrome. I also know that in order to offer classes seven hours per day, five days per week, it is hard to find time to keep an outside source of income. As many of my students have come to me with vast martial experience as well as police officers and military special forces, I doubt that they would pay me if they did not see the value of my teachings.

I am thankful every day for the hundreds of students who have trained in our Washington State and Arizona training halls, and to those teachers who continue to teach Byakko Ryu Jujutsu. I am confident that they have received the best possible foundation in martial arts.

Don_Modesto
05-15-2005, 02:52 PM
Greetings fellow martial artists! My name is Michael Rosen and I was encouraged to join this forum due to the fact that there seemed to be quite a good discussion, although erroneous in most accounts, about my teaching and my ryu....

Thanks for your side and its moderate presentation. It speaks well of you.

Welcome to the discussions.

thomas_dixon
05-18-2005, 12:31 AM
Greetings fellow martial artists! My name is Michael Rosen and I was encouraged to join this forum due to the fact that there seemed to be quite a good discussion, although erroneous in most accounts, about my teaching and my ryu.

They are observations and perceptions of those observations, from material you allow to be displayed publicly. Nothing more. If you don't want questionable material posted on your site, then don't allow it.

I am thankful, and surprised, to learn that the ideas and motives of an insignificant person such as myself have been contemplated by so many! However, I did feel that it would be appropriate to clarify a few things, although I doubt if any of the same people who presumed to judge me will take the time to read this.

Your ideas nor motives were contemplated, or questioned; rather your methods.

But first let me say that my Japanese language skills are not so great as to make presumptions, however I have found that many others grossly misinterpret and over romanticize the language. I apologize in advance for any errors on my part, and welcome knowledgeable direction.

I never presumed to call myself Osensei. I was first called Osensei by a wonderful Japanese woman whose son I had been teaching for some time. When I presumed to correct her, she kindly let me know that as there were several teachers of the system which I was teaching, and all of them had been taught by me, I was the teacher of teachers, or the head teacher. She went on to state that as the founder of the system, with no other direct teachers above me, the title of Osensei was indeed correct. She continued to press the point by saying that, over the many years of our relationship, she had found that my teachings transcended the simple concepts of my art and directed students toward a truer understanding of themselves and their place in the community. This, she said, was the main reason that she addressed me as Osensei. I was both humbled and honored to receive her compliment. Other students began to address me in this way, and I would laugh it off with such remarks as "are you saying I am the fattest of teachers?" (O sensei).

Yet you allow others, who speak english quite well, (well enough to spell, and use proper grammar) on your personal website to call you so? I think not. If someone called me a title I thought I did not deserve, I would politely correct them.


In my twenty five years of the study and practice of martial arts, I have found that rank and title are thrown around like so much fertilizer within the systems. I have tried to stay true to the traditions, and according to Professor Sig Kufferath (Dan Zan Ryu), no longer with us in body, I had done a decent job of it. I knew that creating a style would open myself and my students to ridicule, but I also new that anyone who had become familiar with my methods and my system, were able to appreciate it.

Why not teach a traditional system then, or any grounded, proven system? Of which, by assumptions of your statements, you seem to have years of experiance in; however, years do not equate to experiance.


There were many other errors in the conversation I read in the Aikiweb forum, but as the entire forum was based upon what was obviously a rudimentary browsing of the ChiDoKai web site, I will address those issues as seriously interested martial artists bring them directly to my attention.

Indeed. People read what you have to display. I already brought them to the attention of the people here. You charge, in my opinion too much. You don't spar for two (2) years, and teach your own system, which you created. you also link to other Jujutsu Organizations, of which you also created. Classic signs of a McDojo/Bullshido.


I will close, however, be stating that I do appreciate those teachers who do not charge for their teachings. I myself have given away over $100,000 dollars worth of classes in the past ten years to low income children and to children who were referred to me with Autism and Downs Syndrome. I also know that in order to offer classes seven hours per day, five days per week, it is hard to find time to keep an outside source of income. As many of my students have come to me with vast martial experience as well as police officers and military special forces, I doubt that they would pay me if they did not see the value of my teachings.

I don't. You see people in ATA TKD schools everywhere. You see people in Juko-Kai, Yellow Bamboo, and many other fraudulant 'arts'. And another thing: you've been counting?

I am thankful every day for the hundreds of students who have trained in our Washington State and Arizona training halls, and to those teachers who continue to teach Byakko Ryu Jujutsu. I am confident that they have received the best possible foundation in martial arts.

Good. Because I'm not.

tacgroup1
05-18-2005, 07:23 PM
Wow! pretty harsh treatment from a bunch of people ya' hardly know:) so much for making friends here.

Someone's title, the name of their style, how much they charge... what does it matter?

Mr. Rosen, I thought it was very big of you to step into the fray and explain your points as you did, although you didnt have to. What you call yourself, what you teach and what you charge is your business.

As you well know, there are millions of people in the world that do NOTHING with themselves but they will complain about those that ARE doing something. If you are doing something wrong, it will come back to you, if you are doing something right...well, you know...

eyrie
05-18-2005, 10:07 PM
I think the comments from some here have been pretty harsh, borne of smallminded ignorance.
In "traditional" jujitsu-ryu, it is common for students to "create" (express) their own style (hence ryu), based on their knowledge and understanding of the arts. It is, was, always has been the way of jujitsu-ryu.

There is nothing wrong with what the man charges, if that's what the market will pay, even if it is on the high-side of the national average.

Based on the criteria, by which some are "judging" this man, by the same token, it would be appropriate to call Ueshiba a fraud and Aikikai a McDojo, would it not?

Don_Modesto
05-18-2005, 10:55 PM
Why not teach a traditional system then, or any grounded, proven system? Of which, by assumptions of your statements, you seem to have years of experiance in; however, years do not equate to experiance.

Based on the criteria, by which some are "judging" this man, by the same token, it would be appropriate to call Ueshiba a fraud and Aikikai a McDojo, would it not?

Precisely. Does the pertinent variable come down to epithelial
folds?

Karl Friday talks about a "sword saint" (Kamiizumi?) confering Menkyo Kaidan (complete transmission of the art) on a student who "studied diligently since spring". So much for a lifetime endeavor.

Kano opened the Kodokan at 22.

22!

How about a round-eye doing that...

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 01:03 AM
I can understand completely Mr. Rosen being given the title of O Sensei. Not many people get into a martial art and think "hmm...I want to become a sensei". Most of the time it just kind of happens as a natural progression, they open a school with a couple of friends, do some lessons, and a couple years later they are sensei.

Is he a McDojo/Bullshido? Maybe, maybe not. One can easily see how jujitsu and kung fu could be combined effectively, just look at the MMA world. If he has people, especially trained people, coming to him for lessons, then he is probably legit. I'm sure the world viewed JKD, Aikido, and Judo the same way. Bottom line really boils down to does this system do what is says it does? Probably. It makes no claims about effectiveness. It does make claims about developing character, discussing philosophy, and having a varied student-makeup. All of those are easy. If it is effective, then it is effective. There is only one way to find out and I refuse to take a road-trip just to verify if this is effective or not.

I really don't understand what the problem is. The site makes no claims that sound false. Mr. Rosen is making no claims that overstep his bounds in any way. Will he ever get the "sacred knowledge" that always resides in martial arts at the grand-master type levels? Nope. Did he say he will? Nope. Sounds like some lost kid went zen in high school, really liked it, wanted to learn more, got into martial arts, liked them, tried a couple, got good, and said "hey, i've got an idea, lets sell what i know as a whole package instead of seprate parts" and did it. I heard about one kid who got a skateboard, got good, learned some tricks, started combining stuff, and revolutionized the world. Guy is named Tony Hawk. If you want to get realistic, everyone who owns a dojo teaches from whatever they know and in the way they wanted to be taught, rather than the way they were. His fees are irrelavent. He could have a contract, maybe not, they could be temporary, maybe not. IT DOES NOT MATTER!

thomas_dixon
05-19-2005, 04:06 PM
Precisely. Does the pertinent variable come down to epithelial
folds?

Karl Friday talks about a "sword saint" (Kamiizumi?) confering Menkyo Kaidan (complete transmission of the art) on a student who "studied diligently since spring". So much for a lifetime endeavor.

Kano opened the Kodokan at 22.

22!

How about a round-eye doing that...

I didn't say anything about age. I said years do not equate to experiance.


I can understand completely Mr. Rosen being given the title of O Sensei. Not many people get into a martial art and think "hmm...I want to become a sensei". Most of the time it just kind of happens as a natural progression, they open a school with a couple of friends, do some lessons, and a couple years later they are sensei.

I don't. People who have no experiance in martial arts do not have the right to designate you a title in such. I'm not going to let a Software Programmer designate me a Radiologist.


Is he a McDojo/Bullshido? Maybe, maybe not. One can easily see how jujitsu and kung fu could be combined effectively, just look at the MMA world. If he has people, especially trained people, coming to him for lessons, then he is probably legit. I'm sure the world viewed JKD, Aikido, and Judo the same way.

Indeed. But those people (MMA) actually fight. As opposed to "light sparring".

Bottom line really boils down to does this system do what is says it does? Probably. It makes no claims about effectiveness. It does make claims about developing character, discussing philosophy, and having a varied student-makeup. All of those are easy. If it is effective, then it is effective. There is only one way to find out and I refuse to take a road-trip just to verify if this is effective or not.

A Martial Art is defined by teaching combat, or fighting. Not philosophy, or character development.

I really don't understand what the problem is. The site makes no claims that sound false. Mr. Rosen is making no claims that overstep his bounds in any way. Will he ever get the "sacred knowledge" that always resides in martial arts at the grand-master type levels? Nope. Did he say he will? Nope. Sounds like some lost kid went zen in high school, really liked it, wanted to learn more, got into martial arts, liked them, tried a couple, got good, and said "hey, i've got an idea, lets sell what i know as a whole package instead of seprate parts" and did it.

Jack of all trades, Master of none.


I heard about one kid who got a skateboard, got good, learned some tricks, started combining stuff, and revolutionized the world. Guy is named Tony Hawk. If you want to get realistic, everyone who owns a dojo teaches from whatever they know and in the way they wanted to be taught, rather than the way they were.

Skateboarding is not teaching other people how to defend themselves.


His fees are irrelavent. He could have a contract, maybe not, they could be temporary, maybe not. IT DOES NOT MATTER!

Laughable.

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 06:33 PM
I can understand the Rad Tech thing, but I disagree. If someone comes to you and says "hey can you show me some of the stuff you learned in aikido" you are a sensei (sensei literally means one who has gone before and is commonly used for any type of teacher). If people start doing this on a regular basis and you keep teaching, you are a sensei.

Questioning the self defence aspects of the system because it does not fight professionally is stupid. Do aikidoka get in the UFC cages to prove what they do works?

Boxing is a westerm martial art, one that is completely about fighting. The eastern mindset is a bit diffrent, just look at BJJ as opposed to aikido or the tea ceremony.

I agree with you on the jack of all trades, but he is NOT selling himself as a high and mighty kung fu and ju jitsu master, he is selling himself as someone with a background in both and a master of something he created.

Skateboarding is not teaching people how to defend themselves, but there is no reason that just because Mr. Rosen did his own thing that it just cannot work. Fighting is simple.

And if you have a problem with his fees, either complain to him or dont pay them.

kironin
05-20-2005, 12:33 PM
I don't see the fees as at all relevant.

On the west side of and central part of Houston,
martial art schools typically charge $110-120/month
without any private lessons. Private lessons cost an extra
$75-150/hour. In that context, Aikido clubs charge in the range of $70-90/hour without private lessons. The Aikido clubs are smaller and to my knowledge the ones trying to
be full time teachers are just either modestly getting by or have considerable debt. It's a little offensive that $140/month for the time offered is somehow seen as unacceptable. If his market can handle that more power to him.

I don't make a dime from teaching, but the expenses and time put in sometimes make me question the wisdom of that approach. Teachers in general tend to be undervalued in our culture so if he is able to make it work out more power to him.

Kevin Leavitt
05-20-2005, 02:19 PM
I recently went to atlanta and trained with a couple of world class BJJ guys. I gladly forked out $25.00 per class for around 150.00 for the week I trained with them. The training I recieved was worth it.

Think aikido is cheap? Look at what some people have to invest to earn their shodan. Travel fees, seminar fees etc. Bokken, hakamas, shinai, jo... it all adds up.

Consider yourself lucky if you can get by on an average cost of less than 140.00 per month in expenses for training!

That said, some of the best training I have recieved as been at a cost of $0.00. I have worked with many really, really good teachers who did not believe in charging. You also could not study with these guys on a regular basis cause they typically did not charge cause they did not want the responsibility to have to be consistent.

thomas_dixon
05-20-2005, 04:53 PM
I can understand the Rad Tech thing, but I disagree. If someone comes to you and says "hey can you show me some of the stuff you learned in aikido" you are a sensei (sensei literally means one who has gone before and is commonly used for any type of teacher). If people start doing this on a regular basis and you keep teaching, you are a sensei.

I disagree. Having someone teach something they're not qualified to teach can get you hurt. This is eqivilant to having a 1st kyu start teaching his friends (and charging for it) Aikido. It's immoral to teach what you do not yet understand. While you may have more understanding than those who haven't taken it, your place is to learn, not to teach.

Questioning the self defence aspects of the system because it does not fight professionally is stupid. Do aikidoka get in the UFC cages to prove what they do works?

Show where I questioned his system for not fighting professionally. Someone made an argument that what he does is fine because MMA merges styles, from things such as Wing Chun to BJJ, and I said while this is true, they also fight for a living. Hard sparring and contact almost from the beginning. Not two years later after paying $140 a month.

Boxing is a westerm martial art, one that is completely about fighting. The eastern mindset is a bit diffrent, just look at BJJ as opposed to aikido or the tea ceremony.

True, however with the philosophy of some of the Eastern Martial Arts, also comes effectiveness.

he is selling himself

Nuff said. I'm simply saying, that at $140, being something he created, merging Japanese and Chinese names, not sparring for 2 years, having affiliation with a organization he also created, just makes his practice seem like BS to me. This is my opinion.

Skateboarding is not teaching people how to defend themselves, but there is no reason that just because Mr. Rosen did his own thing that it just cannot work. Fighting is simple.

And if you have a problem with his fees, either complain to him or dont pay them.

If fighting is so simple, why are there systemized methods to fighting? Thats like saying "reading is simple" to someone who can't read. I never said just because he did his own thing it can't work, I said in combination of his fees and other factors stated above it looks like BS.

Don_Modesto
05-21-2005, 05:58 PM
This is eqivilant to having a 1st kyu start teaching his friends (and charging for it) Aikido. It's immoral to teach what you do not yet understand. While you may have more understanding than those who haven't taken it, your place is to learn, not to teach.

Count me tainted. There's lots I don't understand but teach anyway. Oops.

I think the methodology rather explicitly acknowledges this--you learn by teaching. Saotome was out spreading gospel at SHODAN. Chiba (Kanai? Sorry, couldn't find the reference) confessed to teaching YONDANs at Honbu once as a 5 kyu!

kironin
05-21-2005, 09:24 PM
I disagree. Having someone teach something they're not qualified to teach can get you hurt. This is eqivilant to having a 1st kyu start teaching his friends (and charging for it) Aikido. It's immoral to teach what you do not yet understand. While you may have more understanding than those who haven't taken it, your place is to learn, not to teach.



This attitude would have certainly stunted the growth of Aikido in it's womb in the early days.

20 - 30 years ago or more there were clubs started by 1st kyus that grew into large organizations (even a couple of cases I know it happening with 5th kyus, a case with a 2nd kyu too). They simply had no other option if they wanted to continue aikido.


I was going to quote something from Tohei Sensei's instruction to instructors from his 1966 book "Aikido in Daily Life" but it's at my office so I will quote Ueshiba Sensei instead,

"Nature is broad and profound. The more you advance, the more you see ahead of you. Aikido is a way without end, harmonious with Nature."

"I am just in the first grade in Aikido and I am still practicing it. I will continue to do so all the rest of my life and leave Aikido as an inheritance for the generations to come."

(translated of course - What is Aikido? 1962).

thomas_dixon
05-21-2005, 10:02 PM
This attitude would have certainly stunted the growth of Aikido in it's womb in the early days.

20 - 30 years ago or more there were clubs started by 1st kyus that grew into large organizations (even a couple of cases I know it happening with 5th kyus, a case with a 2nd kyu too). They simply had no other option if they wanted to continue aikido.


I was going to quote something from Tohei Sensei's instruction to instructors from his 1966 book "Aikido in Daily Life" but it's at my office so I will quote Ueshiba Sensei instead,

"Nature is broad and profound. The more you advance, the more you see ahead of you. Aikido is a way without end, harmonious with Nature."

"I am just in the first grade in Aikido and I am still practicing it. I will continue to do so all the rest of my life and leave Aikido as an inheritance for the generations to come."

(translated of course - What is Aikido? 1962).

This attitude is called common sense.

Ueshiba was speaking metaphorically, I'm speaking literally. When you're learning to hurt people, and your teacher doesn't know what he's talking about, someone will get hurt. There is a reason teachers don't just say "Allright you've had a week of lessons go practice on your own now."

Someone who doesn't know what they're doing shouldn't be allowed to teach.

eyrie
05-22-2005, 04:56 AM
A 2nd kyu aikidoka started teaching in a small dojo in Turner, Canberra, some 30 years ago. Today, that 2nd kyu is a 6th dan.

If it weren't for that 2nd kyu, the dojo would have never existed, and I would not have found aikido when I did.

Thomas, I think you are being a little too harsh on the man. If it's not the title, it's the fees, not the fees, it's the art, not the art, it's the effectiveness of the art.

Given the man's words and demeanour from his earlier post, I have no doubt he is indeed a great teacher, and the title would be befitting. His fees are reasonable by comparison, as pointed out by various others. Unless you have personally experienced his system, his art and its effectiveness is above reproach.

I don't think it is anyone's place to question what he teaches, how he teaches or whether he knows (or doesn't know) what he's teaching. His students (and their vote) are the judge of that.

Kevin Leavitt
05-22-2005, 01:19 PM
I'm studying with a MMA guy right now that has less than 2 years experience total. Just so happens he is "gifted" for whatever reason. Fact remains, he can kick my ass in many ways. Might be youth and conditioning, but also he has the ability to read books, go to a seminar, and watch tapes and absorb this stuff into muscle memory quicker than anyone I know.

Oh yea, he is not ranked, nor has he ever set foot in a traditional dojo. In fact, I had to teach him how to tie his belt the first time we went to a GI competition!

He also has a lot to learn, and I am helping him in the areas that I have skill in.

It sucks to study for many years in a traditional system only to find a young guy that is "gifted". The only lesson I can say is don't pay so much attention to what the sign on the door says or lineage, but more closely to what he can offer you. It is tough to leave the ego at the door, but in the long run you will be better off for it.

my advice, unsolicited as it may be, is to get over it and move on with your training. Until you've been to his dojo and trained you really have no ability to judge him. Just because people don't subscribe to your adopted "culture" within the MA community doesn't mean they are not any good.

Don_Modesto
05-22-2005, 02:43 PM
Someone who doesn't know what they're doing shouldn't be allowed to teach.

Who's to make this determination. In medicine there's the AMA. You want something like this for aikido?

Failing which...?

PeterR
05-22-2005, 07:47 PM
Didn't all this start because someone thought a term should exclusively belong to Ueshiba M.?

kironin
05-23-2005, 12:38 PM
Ueshiba was speaking metaphorically, I'm speaking literally. When you're learning to hurt people, and your teacher doesn't know what he's talking about, someone will get hurt. There is a reason teachers don't just say "Allright you've had a week of lessons go practice on your own now."


This has happened innumerable times in the martial arts and in Aikido. Many clubs except in certain major cities did not start with some one with high rank. A kyu rank started the club and the dan ranked teacher visited. Many early clubs have that history including the New York Aikikai (pre-Yamada Sensei). As long as someone in that position teaches with humility and openness, I have no problem with it and there is no evidence from Rosen's reply that he is full of himself. One of my teachers who was later a 6th dan started his school in the early 70's when just after being promoted to 1st kyu, the teacher who was a 1st kyu moved out of state. The nearest dan ranked teacher was several states away. If he had followed your advice, the club started by a 2nd kyu a decade later in a city 2 hours away from the first club might never happened and that is the club I started in a decade later. Tohei Sensei tells the story of a 5th kyu starting a club on Guam only after the urging and advice of Tohei Sensei.

Rosen has obviously trained a great deal more than that. If he was the student of someone for 5 years, I have no way of judging the quality and intensity of that training, or his talent at picking things up from a website.

Given Aikido's history, this reaction seems a lot like throwing stones when you own a glass house.

from Aikido Journal articles...

Although the exact truth will perhaps never be known, Morihei would appear to have spent three to four years practicing Daito-ryu under Sokaku in Hokkaido. Two or so of these years included intensive training at the side of the master (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=25)


Mochizuki began learning Daito-ryu aikijujutsu from Ueshiba a few months before the opening of the Kobukan Dojo in Ushigome in Shinjuku in April 1931. 24 years old at the time, Mochizuki made rapid progress given his broad-based budo experience and innate talent. Ueshiba soon asked him to act as the supervisor of his uchideshi and Mochizuku also served as a teaching assistant. It was even suggested that he marry Ueshiba's daughter thereby becoming his adopted son and successor. Mochizuki declined and, as fate would have it, fell ill shortly thereafter with pleurisy and pulmonary tuberculosis. He was taken back home to Shizuoka City to recover. After a three-month hospital stay, he slowly began to teach in a dojo in the center of town built by his brother and some friends. The official dojo opening was held in November 1931 and many dignitaries from Tokyo including Ueshiba, Admiral Takeshita and a General Miura attended. (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=67)