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actoman
04-06-2005, 10:39 AM
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Bryan
04-06-2005, 10:48 AM
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Sweep the leg, no mercy, Cobra Kai!!! Ok all kidding aside.

The first question you should start with is what is the likelyhood of you being in a "defensive situation" while an Aikidoka attacks you. If you don't give them energy, how are they going to use it against you?

Suppose it is happening and you are off balance...you probably started it and deserve whatever you get (ok so I'm still kidding)....obviously you will need to fight for the control of your own balance at the very least. Most martial arts or hand to hand techniques tend to be far less effective when deployed from an unbalanced posture. If you can figure out the technique that is being applied you can try to stay just ahead of the energy, like riding a wave, and look for an opening to escape, counter attack, or reverse the technique. In my KungFu days I would have tried to strip the grap and toss a jab to distract them so I could get out of the mess I got myself into. Now that I do Aikido, I'd try to keep the connection and try to take control of our balance and the line of attack.

The next thing I would do is try to stay away from their reach. If you can't grab me you can't toss me:P , well usually, unelss you can distract me enought to make me trip ;) .

Who am I kidding?...I'd just run away and hope the Aikidoka was one of the elderly, pot bellied, kind. :D

Tim Gerrard
04-06-2005, 11:25 AM
Very interesting topic, it beats is Ju-jitsu better than Aikido.

Having never had aikido used against me in anger, I can only therorise. But supposing in a fight, that someone tried kote-gaeshi you could counter it with irimi-nage. I think that practice of Kaishi Waza would come in handy for that. Same for armlocks/immobilisations. But for hard projections, irimi-nage, shio-nage, no chance, just hope your ukemi and insurance is up to scratch! :uch: :uch: :uch:

tarik
04-06-2005, 01:48 PM
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Not so deep, really.

First, your suggestion is VERY unlikely. If I MUST indulge in what if's, I prefer to stick to the more likely ones. I am of the opinion that the likelihood of being attacked by a skilled martial artist goes down the more skill they have attained and years of training that said martial artist has been involved in, regardless of the art.

Second, this is the very scenario we engage in every day in the dojo. As uke, do you not study your partners suki (openings) while taking ukemi?

They are always there. You make not always exploit them, but that should never stop you from studying them, as this informs your own nagewaza (nagemi, to steal the term from Jun).

Tarik

Anat Amitay
04-06-2005, 02:45 PM
Sorry, but I find it kind of starnge to find oneself attacked with aikido, no? I mean, the MA is more on the defence side than attack. The only thing I can make out of this is if an Aikido technique is being done on someone, if he can turn it to his gain.
In this case I have seen my sensei working with the advaced students and if he can find an opening, he will turn the technique around and turn uke to nage and vis versa.
In this case it's actually being very attentive to your partner and seeking his mistakes. Of course, the more advanced you are, the harder it is to find an opening and more of your techniques will work without your partner being able to do something about it but accept it.
:)

Kevin Leavitt
04-06-2005, 03:15 PM
respectfully, the question is unanswerable since there are way too many variables that are assumed or are assumed away. Size, strength, location, distance, speed....just to name a few.

If he has you off balance AND knows what he is doing, AND assuming it was an ambush attack, which if you were for arguments sake being attacked by a skilled martial artist, then he skillfully has employed the art of suprise and has a huge advantage over you. He is probably already two or three moves ahead of your recovery and is moving you into position for the next submission or strike.

You are probably screwed if he knows what he is doing. Do what you can to recover yourself. I recommend going to the ground and into the guard to be quite honest since you are probably headed there anyway. All the more reason work on ground fighting skills.

BTW, people don't attack with a pure martial style like using "aikido". They may use principles, but in the end they use what works based on all the variables and errors that present themselves in the situation. Ends up looking like NHB or MMA stuff when being done for real. That is why I say go to the guard...it is the most likely position of defense you will be able to acheive.

Kevin Leavitt
04-06-2005, 03:18 PM
Oh yea...from an aikido standpoint...why are you in this situation? and why did you not see it coming? and why did you have bad posture that led to him off balancing you in the first place? Shame on you for not maintaining your kamae at all times! :) Have a nice day!

SeiserL
04-06-2005, 03:45 PM
IMHO, step into your balance point to regain position and follow the path of the attack in a circular motion until your counter technique become apparent.

Alfonso
04-06-2005, 05:07 PM
i.e. more aikido!

tedehara
04-06-2005, 06:32 PM
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?I have been told that all these techniques will work if you do them correctly. However, that is a big IF. Most people are inconsistent in their application of technique.

Even if they have the inital lead, there are many places where they can goof up. Once that happens, you can take over the lead. If they lead correctly throughout, you take ukemi, an option non-practitioners do not have.

Rupert Atkinson
04-06-2005, 11:45 PM
If the person doing Aikido on you is good, then it is likely you who initiated the whole problem - thus you should submit and apologise for whatever it was you did to start it :)

Joezer M.
04-07-2005, 12:47 AM
If you need to defend yourself against an aikidoka, like mentioned above, it's quite likely that you pushed too far... Unless the technique was done with intent to do serious harm, maybe you could simply blend with it, take ukemi, and apologize, right?

Of course, if you're attacked by any of the aikidokas I know (including me), the best defence would be to distract them with beer or pizza... Cookies might work too... :D


Regards,
Joezer (who, by the way, really likes extra peperoni on his pizza, thankyouverymuch :) )

Dazzler
04-07-2005, 06:41 AM
I recommend going to the ground and into the guard to be quite honest since you are probably headed there anyway. All the more reason work on ground fighting skills..........

Ends up looking like NHB or MMA stuff when being done for real. That is why I say go to the guard...it is the most likely position of defense you will be able to acheive. :eek:

It may well be where you end up...but voluntarily going to the ground for me is an absolute no no.

This is why NHB and MMA while being excellent training are still not the same as street fighting.

What about multiple attackers, what about drunken bystanders who are ready to kick off at any excuse?

I agree for sure that if you've no choice then its a great idea to have a ground game. If this is your strength and you know its just the 2 of you then again...why not?

But I can't agree that its a place to go voluntarily and would certainly never recommend it except as a last resort.

On a different note in response to other posts ...I've been lead to believe that ukemi is mainly to enable safe practice. As an option against realistically applied attacks it probably doesn't exist other than as a breakfall.

FWIW

D

batemanb
04-07-2005, 07:27 AM
But supposing in a fight, that someone tried kote-gaeshi you could counter it with irimi-nage. I think that practice of Kaishi Waza would come in handy for that.


Hi Tim,

I think it's back to what if's here really. If your uke (tori applying the technique) has done it properly, if your balance is compromised and if he hasn't left himself open, kaeshi waza is very difficult, if not impossible to do. Kaeshi waza is a reaction/ response to slack technique, it really will depend on what tori is doing, and how well he's doing it, I don't think it's an automatic course of action.

As others have said, I find it hard to image the situation really, I would be surprised if someone attacked using Aikido per se, but you never know.

rgds

Bryan

darin
04-07-2005, 08:19 AM
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Probably not if the attacker is doing the technique correct and fast. If you are bigger and stronger than your opponent you may be able to muscle your way out of his lock or throw. As some people in this forum have mentioned, you can go with the technique and do ukemi. If you can fall out of his technique it will be very hard for your attacker to do kimewaza unless he tries to kick you while your down.

Kaeshi waza is good but really only works when you know what is going to happen.

SeiserL
04-07-2005, 09:14 AM
BTW, the best defense is to clap your hands twice. A good Aikidoka will drop to their knees. LOL

Tim Griffiths
04-07-2005, 09:55 AM
All kaeshiwaza depends on regaining your balance. In fact, I'd stick my neck out enough to say that what distinguishes aikido techniques is the strong emphasis on kuzushi (not to say that judo/jitsu doesn't have it).
If you're off balance, and the aikido is good, its already over, regardless of the technique. You just can't do iriminage if you're spinning on one foot. In this situation, all you can try to do is regain your balance. Unfortunately for you, most aikido training assumes an uke who is trying to do just that, so you have your work cut out for you - good aikido doesn't allow uke to get back to their center. This means that good aikido doesn't have kaeshi openings.

I don't really have much to say to people who said that you can't be attacked with aikido, apart from - huh? Passively sitting and waiting to be attacked is something we train in for the first couple of years of learning aikido, but after that we should really be moving to a more proactive approach. Look at O'sensei's original training manual: In the explanations the first step always comes from Tori (admittedly, that first step is sometimes "Tori fills their body with ki and invites uke to attack" - but its not passive, and fewer than half the techniques listed there).

Train well,

(a different) Tim

ruthmc
04-07-2005, 10:14 AM
I've only ever found yonkyo to be effective as a technique with which to attack using Aikido :D

Ask your sensei to demonstrate some counters to this if you like :)

Ruth

Kevin Leavitt
04-07-2005, 02:01 PM
:eek:

It may well be where you end up...but voluntarily going to the ground for me is an absolute no no.

This is why NHB and MMA while being excellent training are still not the same as street fighting.

What about multiple attackers, what about drunken bystanders who are ready to kick off at any excuse?

I agree for sure that if you've no choice then its a great idea to have a ground game. If this is your strength and you know its just the 2 of you then again...why not?

But I can't agree that its a place to go voluntarily and would certainly never recommend it except as a last resort.

On a different note in response to other posts ...I've been lead to believe that ukemi is mainly to enable safe practice. As an option against realistically applied attacks it probably doesn't exist other than as a breakfall.

FWIW

D

I never condone going to the ground if you do not have to. My assumption is that a aikidoka has your balance, you are defending yourself, he/she is probably already well ahead of your ability to regain posture, therefore you are going to the ground. Best way I know to save yourself is to grab ahold of something like clothing and ride it down minimizing the next move which I assume would be pin or atemi or something.

The best situation is to not let them take your balance in the first place!

I agree with you...it is the same argument I argue with all the time with my BJJ buddies about multiple opponents. You'd be suprised that most of them agree to, but still practice for the sport aspect of it because it is fun.

I have had some new insights into the Army Combatives program which is heavily based on BJJ. In training my soldiers for Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) most of the high probability scenarios favor BJJ since we do not go into room clearing alone and you are overwhelmed by an opponent and with all your crap on you simply do a controlled fall and hold the guy until your buddy can subdue him.

Don't want to get off on this tangent though. Sorry, but when you start talking "what if's" and realitiy scenarios...it opens up a whole nother ball game and many, many variables to consider that we cannot replicate nor need to in the dojo.

jxa127
04-07-2005, 03:41 PM
Hi all,

I'd like to echo Tim's comments about aikido being very proactive.


Passively sitting and waiting to be attacked is something we train in for the first couple of years of learning aikido, but after that we should really be moving to a more proactive approach. Look at O'sensei's original training manual: In the explanations the first step always comes from Tori (admittedly, that first step is sometimes "Tori fills their body with ki and invites uke to attack" - but its not passive, and fewer than half the techniques listed there).


The one time I've had to use aikido, I was in the middle between two people who were getting progressively angrier with one another -- a younger man and an older man. I'm not going to go into details, but I'm related to both and was trying to calm things down. As things got worse, I remember thinking that if the younger guy moves, I'm going to take him down. He moved, and I took him down.

In a sense, you could say that I attacked him with aikido -- he actually moved away from me. I did a beautiful kyzushi that lead into a great pin that immediately calmed things down and left my no-longer-quite-as-angry young friend unhurt. I, on the other hand, tenkaned right into the back of a wooden chair and had a very nasty bruise for the next week or so.

The point is, I didn't wait for him to move before deciding to take action. I decided to take action and then he moved.

To flip things around, could he have done anything after I attacked him? Probably. It would have been difficult while I was throwing him, but if he had wanted to continue to struggle after I took him to the floor, it could have gotten nasty. I was lucky that he calmed down right away.

Regards,

-Drew

Dazzler
04-08-2005, 04:57 AM
I never condone going to the ground if you do not have to. My assumption is that a aikidoka has your balance, you are defending yourself, he/she is probably already well ahead of your ability to regain posture, therefore you are going to the ground. Best way I know to save yourself is to grab ahold of something like clothing and ride it down minimizing the next move which I assume would be pin or atemi or something.

The best situation is to not let them take your balance in the first place!

I agree with you...it is the same argument I argue with all the time with my BJJ buddies about multiple opponents. You'd be suprised that most of them agree to, but still practice for the sport aspect of it because it is fun.

I have had some new insights into the Army Combatives program which is heavily based on BJJ. In training my soldiers for Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) most of the high probability scenarios favor BJJ since we do not go into room clearing alone and you are overwhelmed by an opponent and with all your crap on you simply do a controlled fall and hold the guy until your buddy can subdue him.

Don't want to get off on this tangent though. Sorry, but when you start talking "what if's" and realitiy scenarios...it opens up a whole nother ball game and many, many variables to consider that we cannot replicate nor need to in the dojo.

Fair response. I certainly don't want to go down the what if route. Way too many variables to cover off.

Personally I think jujitsu ..BJJ or otherwise...is an excellent compliment to aikido and practiced it for 8 years. The instructor was very into MMA scene and competes professionally in uk.

Everything has its flaws but like most martial arts training the plusses outweigh the negatives.

I see a heck of a lot of plusses in BJJ.

Thanks for post and clearing up the voluntarily seeking the ground query.

D

ian
04-08-2005, 05:34 AM
Counter attacks are extensive in aikido (though I hate to use this term as it suggests that they are done specifically as counters, rather than finding the natural gaps in someone's techniques).

However, I believe if aikido is done correctly there are no counter attacks. Aikido occurs in conjunction with the attack, so if you have attacked, you have been thrown. However, this also illustrates that you don't DO aikido to someone; aikido is the complement to their attack.

PS if you are already off balance your response is likely to be very poor (although you can do 'sacrifice' throws, this is often a poor strategy in a multiple attack).

actoman
04-08-2005, 10:13 AM
Sorry, I must have worded it wrong, let me rephrase my question:

I someone were attacking me, and I began to use my technique with their energy, and for some odd reason I was off a bit or too slow, could they wiggle out of the hold or throw and hurt me?

As I become more experienced, I realize what my Sensei says makes so much more sense than it used to. He told me that I would begin to see openings in others' techniques even when watching them on video or the TV. Every day I think of it more and more. Very interesting what he was saying and that at the time I didnt believe him, I was wrong!

samurai_kenshin
04-08-2005, 11:25 AM
I don't think this is really a plausible situation. An Aikidoka wouldn't be attacking with aikido because most of the stuff is with your uke initinating the attack. If they did decide to punch you you could do a million things with that. Not to mention that it goes against much of the aikido philosophy (though there is that occasional student that goes to the dark side...

samurai_kenshin
04-08-2005, 11:31 AM
Fair response. I certainly don't want to go down the what if route. Way too many variables to cover off.

Personally I think jujitsu ..BJJ or otherwise...is an excellent compliment to aikido and practiced it for 8 years. The instructor was very into MMA scene and competes professionally in uk.

Everything has its flaws but like most martial arts training the plusses outweigh the negatives.

I see a heck of a lot of plusses in BJJ.

Thanks for post and clearing up the voluntarily seeking the ground query.

D
You talk about good compliments to Aikido, but i rarely see anyone talk of sword arts as good compliments. Why? I think kendo is a great compliment to Aikido as well as tameshigiri. It helps concentration as well as awareness of self, which my sensei stresses constantly. As for the what if lines, I don't like them. The entire thing is like alternate universes. If he did this you could do this or this, or maybe even that...It's just to complicated to predict all possible human reactions to a situation.

Charles Hill
04-08-2005, 07:57 PM
[QUOTE=James Matarrese] An Aikidoka wouldn't be attacking with aikido because most of the stuff is with your uke initinating the attack. [QUOTE]

Hi James,

I think you mentioned on another thread that you train with Pat Hendricks. Does she really teach that uke initiates the attack? My understanding of Saito Sensei is that nage initiates.

Charles

xuzen
04-08-2005, 11:34 PM
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Dear Andy,

Strictly from a technical point of view... all aikido technique can be countered. We call it Kaeshi waza. Whether you can pull it off depends on how pliable your body and mind are, how weak your attacker is.

Boon.

Murgen
04-09-2005, 11:52 PM
I someone were attacking me, and I began to use my technique with their energy, and for some odd reason I was off a bit or too slow, could they wiggle out of the hold or throw and hurt me?



My Sensei taught me a counter to kotogaeishi that does work pretty well and allows you to put a counter kotogaeishi on the nage. Yes, it's takes timing so it might not work 100% of the time. I remember he mentioned there was a counter to everything!!?? So yes, if your off, or slow, they could get out and counter attack. My Sensei has shown me several times how I was vulnerable during a technique to a counter, kick, punch, knee, elbow , headbutt etc... which could possibly put me down and out if done with full power. But, if the technique is done perfectly, I think it would be pretty hard for the Uke to "slip out"

CNYMike
04-10-2005, 12:58 AM
Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is atttempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?

Well part of Aikido training is countering a reversing a technique being executed on you with another technique, and there are plenty of things non-Aikido martial artists can do to make an Aikido person's life miserable, so the answer is "Yeah." But being attaked on the street by a rogue Yodansha is pretty unlikely; if it happens, buy a lottery ticket.

Kevin Temple
04-10-2005, 02:01 AM
I don't understand what is so hard to believe about being attacked by aikido. Assuming that every person who studies aikido is a peaceful person is a big assumption, and I'm sure there are some Cobra-Kai aikidoka out there somewhere just waiting for their chance to strike. Just because Aikido can be a peaceful martial art, doesn't mean all aikido folk are peaceful. And in my dojo we do learn some attacks that shite initiates, mainly with shite starting off the technique by moving in for a shomen uchi. I'm sure some sort of evil or possibly just really drunk aikidoka could go about attacking you. With regard to defending against aikido, to be honest i'd say many of the reversal and escapes require a much better understanding of the techniques then i have now. I'm sure in 10 or 20 years i'll be able to give you a better answer

batemanb
04-10-2005, 02:43 AM
Dear Andy,

Strictly from a technical point of view... all aikido technique can be countered. We call it Kaeshi waza.


Hi Boon,

Like I posted before, only if the Aikido technique is done poorly and allows for openings. If it's done correctly, kuzushi applied and ma ai maintained, it is very difficult to counter.

But that's why we practice :).

rgds

Bryan

CNYMike
04-11-2005, 12:52 AM
I don't understand what is so hard to believe about being attacked by aikido .....

IMO, it's statisitically unlikely. You're in Canada, right? Ok, there are 30 million people in Canada. What percentage of them know anything about Aikido? Given that the best guestimate is that there are 1.5 million Aikido pracitioners worldwide, they're probably spread pretty thin in Canada's metro areas. Same probably applies "south of the border." There are ~250 million Americans, but not a lot of Aikido people. In fact, my home town of Cortland, NY doesn't have any Aikido dojos -- I have to drive to Ithaca to train! Sure there are plenty of people who "did it years ago," but if they don't maintane what skill they had, they use it. Again, no threat.

So you probably don't have to worry about it because Aikido people are just too damn few and far between to make it worth worrying about.

Dazzler
04-11-2005, 05:56 AM
You talk about good compliments to Aikido, but i rarely see anyone talk of sword arts as good compliments. Why? I think kendo is a great compliment to Aikido as well as tameshigiri. It helps concentration as well as awareness of self, which my sensei stresses constantly. As for the what if lines, I don't like them. The entire thing is like alternate universes. If he did this you could do this or this, or maybe even that...It's just to complicated to predict all possible human reactions to a situation.

Why not talk of sword arts? Personally I believe they can be unhelpful because in Aikido we practice aiki ken and aiki jo. The ken are just teaching aids and we are not using them to fight with per se.

On this basis I feel sword work could confuse rather than complement.

Kendo in particular has a fixed stance that differs from aikido plus intense focus on a single opponent so for me I do not see it as complementary.

Others may see it differently. Hopefully we shall see some posts to explain why. One of the great things about aikido is the way different people use it in different ways to practice.

Hopefully I've covered my personal reasons for what I see as complementary...readers can agree or disagree. Its a free forum! :D

As for the what if lines...I dont like them either so I dont see what you are getting at. :confused:

D

Kevin Leavitt
04-15-2005, 05:38 PM
ikebana can be complimentary to aikido too, but what does that have to do with reality and a fight?

I personally would not confuse practicing aikido techniques which are designed to teach you principles with what happens in a real fight against a skilled opponent. Too many variables and too many errors made in the heat of battle. Certainly principles are there, and some techniques, but to come up with a 100% dojo solution of perfect technique is not gonna happen.

Ketsan
04-16-2005, 12:44 PM
I approach all my training with two thoughs: 1. How would any normal untrained person deal with my technique (usually by resisting).
2. I'm in a bar, I get into an argument, he thows a punch, I block it, counter with another punch then I find him going for a technique. I now have a second at most to deal with it.

Most of the time my solution is either don't leave your limbs dangling about in mid air to be taken after you've punched or kicked or simply do the exact opposite of what uke would do. Drop your stance, let him do whatever he likes with your upper body as long as your feet are rooted to the spot. If you're off balance, step to where you're on balance.
If he takes your hand, pull your elbow in or move your body to your elbow. If he goes for irmi nage, start throwing elbows about and flailing your arms and doing the funky chicken, or go for the hip throw or leg lift.
Kicks are brilliant too. As soon as he takes for shi-ho nage wait for him to cut up and then go for the ribs or solar plexis with a round house kick or knee. Ikkyo, drop your posture and stand your ground, fight it all the way then give him a good kick to the solar plexis or the balls or knee or ribs or thigh (inside and out), ankles, face, throat, you get the picture.

A lot of the time simply by dropping your posture you can make it a strength on strength fight which will buy enough time to punch, throw or kick, especially since Aikido generally ties up both hands while performing a technique, the result being that you end up without an effective guard. There's no reason you should at any stage be off balance or at least not in a position where you can't simply step back on balance. Even with irimi nage ura, where you're pulled back, if you lift your legs simple physics dictates that you will accelerate towards the floor, with tori hanging on to you.

Taking an outsiders view:
Look at how an Aikidoka trains. They have an uke that goes with their technique and quite happily gives them their hand to be thrown with, so they're trained to deal with people that go with the technique. They rarely train for kicks, so a kick will cause them problems, especially if they're properly covered with punches. Also they're trained to deal with one big telegraphed punch, not a hail of little ones in a sustained attack from a stable posture i.e not stepping through.

xuzen
04-16-2005, 08:48 PM
I approach all my training with two thoughts: 1. How would any normal untrained person deal with my technique (usually by resisting).
2. I'm in a bar, I get into an argument, he throws a punch, I block it, counter with another punch then I find him going for a technique. I now have a second at most to deal with it..
Same thoughts here. Let's go grab a sake and sashimi and we'll talk some more :D

If he takes your hand, pull your elbow in or move your body to your elbow..
Tried that once with an untrained person and like you said, his natural reaction (absolutely predictable) was to pull his elbow in and went for the guard position, which I immediately executed the irimi-zuki/shomenate technique, it worked on that particular occasion.

A lot of the time simply by dropping your posture you can make it a strength on strength fight which will buy enough time to punch, throw or kick, especially since Aikido generally ties up both hands while performing a technique, the result being that you end up without an effective guard.
Is biting allowed, Alex? It is as good atemi as any IMO. Dropping your posture and being rooted is a good tactic to prevent being thrown, but don't forget for a good aikido or judo technique to be effective, kuzushi has to be properly set up first. So IMO, if the uke has the chance to be rooted, then kuzushi hasn't been effectively applied.

There's no reason you should at any stage be off balance or at least not in a position where you can't simply step back on balance.
Principle of Judo states that there are two ways to throw someone. One by applying force to effect a throw, the second is to lead the person far away form his centre of gravity and then prevent him from regaining his balance to effect a throw (aka as leg tripping e.g. Kosoto-Gari), which is effectively preventing the uke from "simply stepping back to balance"

Even with irimi nage ura, where you're pulled back, if you lift your legs simple physics dictates that you will accelerate towards the floor, with tori hanging on to you.
Sounds like a set up for sutemi techniques...e.g. Uki-Waza in Judo syllabus.

Taking an outsiders view:
Look at how an Aikidoka trains. They have an uke that goes with their technique and quite happily gives them their hand to be thrown with, so they're trained to deal with people that go with the technique. They rarely train for kicks, so a kick will cause them problems, especially if they're properly covered with punches. Also they're trained to deal with one big telegraphed punch, not a hail of little ones in a sustained attack from a stable posture i.e not stepping through
Ah Alex, you are talking about the AikiFruities(TM)... they are doing it for fitness only, so wrong group to make an example of.

Boon.

Ketsan
04-16-2005, 10:40 PM
Sake and Sashimi sounds good to me. :D

Umm AikiFruities? Maybe in which case someone has some serious hardcore training methods :D . Never seen a jab or a kick in our dojo. So I'll apologise now incase there's people in dojo's training to deal with jabs and kicks etc.

Biting is perfectly fine :p .

I freely admit here that my experiences with "broken balance" may only apply to me but: If I find myself off balance I tend to dump all my weight on one foot and then put the other one somewhere where I can stand on balance.
I find a lot of the time though that most people realise they're off balance but freeze up and make no attempt to regain their balance. So yes Kuzushi has to be set up properly first but IMO balance isn't something that once broken can't be regained. Judo and Ju-jitsu I see as being a bit different because usually the throw comes pretty much as soon as the kuzushi also Ju-jitsu and Judo have nice reaps and stuff to stop you getting back on balance, where as Aikido the throw is often a reletively long time after the balance is supposedly broken. This I find is because in Aikido there's a lot of trying to move the body with the arm but the thing is the arm can move all over the place without affecting the body, so uke has a reletively long time to react between their arm being moved and their balance being attacked at which point your two hands will be tied up dealing with throwing them and their one hand and two legs are free to attack.

Also the definition of "off balance" is well, weird, at least in my dojo.
Standing on your toes is off balance, having one foot off the floor is off balance, distorted posture is off balance. The fact that you can let go of the uke and they will continue to stand up in that "off balance" position seems to have no bearing on wheather they are on balance or not. I mean to me if you're off balance, you fall over. Then again if you fall over in the middle of the technique there is no technique, which is another of my ways of getting out of trouble, drop onto your knees and punch them in the balls.

CNYMike
04-17-2005, 10:17 PM
.... Taking an outsiders view:


I was away from Aikido for sixteen years while training in other arts, and am now doing Aikido, karate, Tai Chi, Kali, and Pentjak Silat Serak. So I've got both persepctives.


.... Look at how an Aikidoka trains. They have an uke that goes with their technique and quite happily gives them their hand to be thrown with, so they're trained to deal with people that go with the technique .....

That's a valid criticism. However, the martial arts are rife with training methodologies and drills where partners work together so that either one or both can learn something. People in boxing and kickboxing systems will be familiar with focus mit/pad training. Pracitioners of Chinese arts know all about chi sao and pushing/sticky hands training, designed to impart the touch sensitivity required when you get closer to your opponent than arms lenght. And Kali .... Oh, my god, Kali is LOADED with flow drills: sombrada, sinawali, hompok higto hubud lubud .... and so on. It's the major teaching methodology of the Filipino martial arts.

So Aikido training is "cooperative" because it trying to teach you something O Sensei wanted you to know. What is that something? Call me back in 40 years. :) Is it bad that most Aikido people don't do much else? I don't know, and god knows there's enough anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument. But that's how I look at it these days.


They rarely train for kicks ....

Neither do people in Western boxing, AFAIK. They are very good at what they do, but there are some things they don't do. That Aikido focuses on some areas and doesn't really look at others doesn't bother me, because many other arts are like that in that respect.

..... so a kick will cause them problems, especially if they're properly covered with punches. Also they're trained to deal with one big telegraphed punch, not a hail of little ones in a sustained attack from a stable posture i.e not stepping through.

Quite possibly, but then again, what are the odds an Aikido person will get in a fight with an experienced martial artist who has done his homework on Aikido and given thought to the strategies and tactics required to make an Aikidoka's life miserable?

Probably not very good.

Back in the '80s, I saw news footage of a brawl at a hockey game, and two hockey players had grabbed each other's jerseys with their right hands and were pummeling each other with the other hand. Many Aikido techniques then are looking at that grab-and-strike sort of attack from someone who is out to clock you but may or may not have trained. The grabs are trained against first to learn the basics and keep things simple (although one could argue that the timing is really advanced because then you're looking at nullifying the attack in the earliest possible instant, not the easiest thing to do in reality I imagine), but that's the idea. A trained person who's thought about what they're going to do and methodically employs their ideas might cause headaches, but that's an almost ludicrous "What if?" Most likely, the two martial artists would have a beer and talk shop.

Hardware
04-18-2005, 12:42 AM
ikebana can be complimentary to aikido too...

Yeah, you could really show those...flowers... :D

Ketsan
04-18-2005, 08:14 AM
Oh I agree that it's unlikely that someone will train to defeat Aikido but if you're trained to do say TKD, then given the opertunity you will do TKD and Aikido, not being designed to cope with kicks that are properly covered with punches or that are delivered when the Aikidoka is performing a technique will buckle. But as I say the best defence against Aikido is to be an "anti-uke". I think we've all had experiences with newbies that don't know to bend their arm for ikkyo for example.

In my opinion our style of co-operative training is unqiue because it does beyond simply holding a kick shield or a focus mit or exercises like pushing hands. In our art is it virtually the entirety of our art, no other invests half it's energy and time in teaching you how to do what the other person wants. So even if you're 8th Dan Shihan if you've never been in a fight you've never thrown anyone that hasn't wanted to be thrown and I tend to find that Aikido techniques only work if I have a good uke. Even if it's designed to impart O-Sensei's wisdom ultimately if you can't perform a technique on an aggressor you probably wont be around long enough to figure out what O-Sensei wanted you to learn.

I've been studying Aikido for just over two years now and I used to be be all "Well you'll break their balance before they could counter" then I realised what I am doing when I take ukemi and came to the realisation that actually I was breaking my own balance and that if I wished I could probably launch a fairly devestating counter attack and tori would walk onto it with their guard all over the place.

Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off. Then when I'm tori I wonder which one of us is actually in control, am I throwing uke or is uke throwing themselves with me dancing around the outside. I mean ok, co-operation but what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?

Pauliina Lievonen
04-18-2005, 09:29 AM
Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off.

Alex,

that seems to be a common fase in training around the two-year mark, at least IME. One of the reasons you start to see the holes in tori's technique is that the cooperative training develops your sensitivity to what your partner is doing. You need the same sort of sensitivity to feel what uke is doing, so that eventually when uke starts to resist or go in an unexpected direction you are able to go with them and use the new situation to your advantage. It really can be done.

What you could do, to train yourself, is to not take your own balance, but also not resist. Move with the technique, allow it to happen, but keep as much in balance as you can while keeping moving. Take note of openings of your partner but don't make use of them.

You could also ask one of your seniors to train freely sometime with you, so that you have "permission" to try and escape, get your balance back, try all the tricks you can think of. I find this wonderfully calming when I start to doubt my training...

kvaak
Pauliina

Ian Upstone
04-18-2005, 10:21 AM
I went through a phase thinking exactly the same thoughts after coming from a karate background and doing aikido for a short while. I learnt a few techniques - but doubted the efficiency of them in a 'real fight' and came to the same conclusions in my training about cooperating ukes and such like. There seemed no point to it. I only stuck with aikido because I was fascinated by the movement and the many other apects other than the obvious 'practical' one. If indeed that was all I was interested in, I'd be long gone by now...

Then after a while, I came to realise that it's never going to be a case of "if X happens, I'll do Y". Even those with the fastest, cat-like reactions cannot possibly recognise, evaluate, and then react to so many different factors within the time it takes to get punched on the nose.

The specific techniques we learn are not fighting methods, but are training methods. Noone is ever going to do a textbook technique in an unpleasant situation, or stand in kamae while someone squares up to them! It's easy to stop or redirect an aikido technique if you know what is coming and nage/sh'te would rather compromise their technique than injure you. Reversal techniques, and being 'un-uke' are all irrelevant off the mat, but are essential training on it.

IMO, the whole point of training many different techniques repeatedly over and over and over is to develop a strong centre (line) and ingrain the movement and principles behind the techniques (as well as many other less immediately obvious benefits).

I would follow Pauliina's suggestions. Don't worry about it being fake or inneffective, just continue training, explore all other avenues other than the obvious 'fighting' one and hopefully you'll get to the point where you'll be the one encouraging others that have doubts about what they are doing.

Kevin Leavitt
04-18-2005, 03:27 PM
The specific techniques we learn are not fighting methods, but are training methods. Noone is ever going to do a textbook technique in an unpleasant situation, or stand in kamae while someone squares up to them! It's easy to stop or redirect an aikido technique if you know what is coming and nage/sh'te would rather compromise their technique than injure you. Reversal techniques, and being 'un-uke' are all irrelevant off the mat, but are essential training on it.


I couldn't have said it better myself! After studying aikido for last 9 years or so, I am working with some really good MMA and BJJ guys and I am getting my ass handed to me. I thought I was pretty good but I am finding out that things are much, much different when you go up against skilled opponents.

That said, unskilled, not one problem using my aikido, it works great, just ask the two new guys I kotegaeshi'd today!

Things are much different when the cooperation stops!

CNYMike
04-18-2005, 03:54 PM
.... as I say the best defence against Aikido is to be an "anti-uke". I think we've all had experiences with newbies that don't know to bend their arm for ikkyo for example.


Actually my experince as uke at some training sessions has been that when some people don't have their ikkyo quite right, I'm able to wriggle my arm free when they should be pinning me because they've missed something. The more experienced people (and the instructors) don't miss that detail and they most deifnitely have me.

In martial arts, the devil is in the details. You can get away with muffing them in a striking system because with some natural ability you can hit hard without having everything just *so,* but when you get into locking and throwing as Aikido does, the details matter more; on one occassion I held an uke UP because the muscles in my upper body were too tense!


.... In my opinion our style of co-operative training is unqiue because it does beyond simply holding a kick shield or a focus mit or exercises like pushing hands. In our art is it virtually the entirety of our art, no other invests half it's energy and time in teaching you how to do what the other person wants. So even if you're 8th Dan Shihan if you've never been in a fight you've never thrown anyone that hasn't wanted to be thrown ....

The question of when and how much an uke should resist seems to be a lot more complicated than it appears in the beginning stages of training, and even then it may vary between styles of Aikido. If you and your sensei had nothing else to do for an hour and a half, (s)he could probably lay it out for you.

..... and I tend to find that Aikido techniques only work if I have a good uke .....

In a recent karate class, my instructor demonstrated and application that includes nikkyo and switching to kote gaeshi. I had no problem doing it on my partner, even though he's a wrestler and was definitely grabbing on very hard. Having been working on nikkyo since last march probably helped. :)

I also snagged sort of a nikkyo on a training partner in Tai Chi class once. My partner (who's also in my Kali/Serak class) and I were doing pushing hands. He tried to trap me, and I felt my hands being sandwiched into a nikkyo position. So I cranked on his wrist. He didn't slam to the ground like a "good uke" should, but it must have been a might uncomfrotable because he bent over and said, "Ok, that's enough of that." (He's also very flexible, which could account for it.) And then when I'd let go of him, he looked at me, smiled and said, "I do believe that was Aikido."

So that's two examples of Aikido techniques working -- or at least not failing miserably -- away from the good ukes of an Aikido class. It's worth noting that the same techniques appear in other arts, including the grappling sections of Kali, and work quite well. None of my seniors or instructors had ever any problem throwing me, and in each case I outweight the gentlemen in question by something like 50 pounds. Yet I'VE been the one having trouble with the throws!

I hear what you're saying -- sometimes, you wonder if uke is falling for you, regardless of whether you are uke. It doesn't help matters that some higher level yodansha aim for being totally unable to tell what happened on that point. But it's a long way from that to saying "It doesn't work at all!" especially if the same techniques are found elsewhere.


..... what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?

The technique. Safely.

One of my recent projects has been to properly take ukemi for ikkyo and nikkyo, meaning pushing myself forward so my knee doesn't smack into the ground. That can be very bad if you're on something other than a crash mat. You're saying, "Ah ha! So when uke goes forward it's uke doing it." Maybe. But in working on that, I learned that it relieved the pressure on my arm, making it much less painful. This is good. And one evening I went home with pain in my HIPS, not my arms or upper bodies, verifying the idea that osae waza are about controling the center, not just locking up the joints for a submission.

And I learned all that by cooperating.

The fact that ukemi waza are referred to in just that manner, connoted by "waza" just as the other areas are, tells me they're important and you have to study what's going on there, not just use it to avoid getting hurt on landing (although that is always good).

So IMO, the asnwer to your question is "a lot."

Ketsan
04-18-2005, 04:47 PM
I don't know. First day I walked into the dojo I thought Aikido was pants but since my Lao Gar/ Kickboxing (instructor taught both) dojo had closed down and my Ju-jitsu sensei buggered off to Japan 4 years earlier and the previous dojo (TKD mixed with Ju-jitsu) I'd trained in was only really into jumping into the ring with someone and beating them senseless for no real reason, I decided I'd stay until I found a decent ju-jitsu dojo since some of the techniques looked fairly familiar. Then there was a honey moon period, then there was a whole denial period then there was a period of disillusion.

kironin
04-18-2005, 11:55 PM
But as I say the best defence against Aikido is to be an "anti-uke". I think we've all had experiences with newbies that don't know to bend their arm for ikkyo for example.


why would I care if someone bends their arm or not ? you don't need them to bend their arm to do an effective ikkyo.


and I tend to find that Aikido techniques only work if I have a good uke.


then you haven't trained properly and really don't what you are talking about.


I've been studying Aikido for just over two years now


or you haven't trained long enough to have the skill to deal with an uncooperative uke,

unless you have been training daily as a live-in student, that means you been doing it just long to know which foot goes where but it's doubtful you are getting the details right and probably are not even really seeing the details yet.


Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off. Then when I'm tori I wonder which one of us is actually in control, am I throwing uke or is uke throwing themselves with me dancing around the outside. I mean ok, co-operation but what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?

everyone has crisis in training. everyone goes through phases, plateaus and doubts. but...
unfortunately there are places that don't know what the hell they are doing and they are just dancing. The only way you will know if you are in one of those places is if you just stop dancing. I would suggest you talk to a senior student that you feel you know and is level headed. Ask politely about resistance and if you can try somethings with to address some questions you have been having.

Ukemi should go the range from total cooperation to total resistance. An uke who can modulate across that range depending on the level of nage is what I would consider a good uke. Advance training should have the goal to elicit cooperation out of uke when uke is attacking with good balance and resisting and doesn't want to cooperate. IMO there can be no honest true Aikido without such honest conflict to resolve. Totally cooperative practice is a beginning of training.

There is no such thing as an anti-uke for a properly trained nage.

Hardware
04-19-2005, 12:11 AM
...Hence I've hit something of a crisis in my own training. I mean there's part of me that thinks I'm talking nonsence, but I don't know. I watch tori performing a technique on me and I see holes that I can exploit and when I'm taking ukemi it just feels like I'm faking it all and that if I got bored half way though the technique I could just walk off. Then when I'm tori I wonder which one of us is actually in control, am I throwing uke or is uke throwing themselves with me dancing around the outside. I mean ok, co-operation but what do you learn if the person you're training with co-operates with you to such an extent that the co-operation is an integral part of the technique?

One shouldn't try to imagine any Aikido technique being executed in the pure form as seen in a dojo in a real-world, combat situation. It could possibly happen, (in theory) but one should never strive for that.

At our parent dojo the senior level black belts tend to resist techniques to force us to hone our hara power - the techniques always end up looking different - and this is still with a highly trained Uke who ultimately will take ukemi properly for the technique!

I don't think the idea is that you would ever perform any "textbook" Aikido technique in a real situation, but you should simply use any facet(s) from any and all techniques you know to suit the situation.

CNYMike
04-19-2005, 12:44 AM
I don't know. First day I walked into the dojo I thought Aikido was pants....

:confused: Is that good or bad? I'm not up on my UK slang. :confused:

..... but since my Lao Gar/ Kickboxing (instructor taught both) dojo had closed down and my Ju-jitsu sensei buggered off to Japan 4 years earlier and the previous dojo (TKD mixed with Ju-jitsu) I'd trained in was only really into jumping into the ring with someone and beating them senseless for no real reason, I decided I'd stay until I found a decent ju-jitsu dojo since some of the techniques looked fairly familiar ....

Of course they're familiar; Aikido techniques are from jujitsu. And since body mechanics remain a constant, that's why they pop up elsewhere, too.

Then there was a honey moon period, then there was a whole denial period then there was a period of disillusion.

Really? Let me ask you something: How many of the people you are training with in Aikido are newbies with no previous martial arts training? Probably a lot of them. Think that effects your perceptions? Of course it does. And if some of your fellow students are taking Aikido as their very first martial art and don't have any previous training or experience, would that account for why they barely have you? Yup.

That said, let's face it, you really only have two options now in the face of the advice you've been given: Either press on with your training and see how you feel about it over time. Or quit Aikido, write it off as a horrible mistake and a waste of time, and find something else to train in.

The choice is yours.

CNYMike
04-19-2005, 01:23 AM
..... you really only have two options now in the face of the advice you've been given: Either press on with your training and see how you feel about it over time. Or quit Aikido, write it off as a horrible mistake and a waste of time, and find something else to train in.


Actually, Alex, you kinda have a third option: crosstrain in something else that addresses your concerns. That's a subset of the option to press on, though. But even then ....


The choice is yours.

ruthmc
04-19-2005, 03:20 AM
I don't know. First day I walked into the dojo I thought Aikido was pants....
:confused: Is that good or bad? I'm not up on my UK slang. :confused:
In the UK, to say something is pants means you think it's total rubbish (garbage). So, bad then :rolleyes:

Ruth

CNYMike
04-19-2005, 11:50 AM
In the UK, to say something is pants means you think it's total rubbish (garbage). So, bad then :rolleyes:

Ruth

Thanks.

Kevin Leavitt
04-19-2005, 01:58 PM
IMHO it is nearly impossible to "do" a aikido like technique on a totally non-cooperative uke IF he/she knows what nage's technique will be. There is a reason we practice aikido the way we do in the dojo, that is, it develop correct technique and understand the principles. Therefore, it is necessary for uke to work with nage in a cooperative effort for both to train. That does not mean that uke "gives" nage the technique, but walks the fine line with good balance and posture and is able to reverse if nage screws it up.

My sensei always told me that if uke doesn't want you to do the technique, you can't. Normally you would abort that technique and roll to something else looking for the gap or mistake that uke creates. However, that is a different exercise.

I think you have to be very careful when you start playing around with real and 100% non cooperative uke. You must decide on your endstate for that training session (outcome) otherwise it dilutes to a pointless free-for-all with no learning taking place.

I have found it to be good to pratice this way, It allows you to experiment, but I don't really think you are "doing aikido" any longer, it really becomes MMA. I have found it necessary to have competent teachers in this area overwatching because the dynamic changes so much and you will do dumb things that will develop into bad habits if you are not careful. That or you will simply be "rastling" with no growth occuring.

Certainly the principles of aikido are relevant in this type of training, but unless you are very, very, very good at aikido, and I have not seen anyone that is yet. (not saying they are not outthere). You are not going to be "doing aikido" with a non-cooperative uke.

Ketsan
04-19-2005, 05:33 PM
why would I care if someone bends their arm or not ? you don't need them to bend their arm to do an effective ikkyo.



then you haven't trained properly and really don't what you are talking about.



or you haven't trained long enough to have the skill to deal with an uncooperative uke

There is no such thing as an anti-uke for a properly trained nage.

With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.

Ian Upstone
04-19-2005, 06:04 PM
Alex, I'm not sure I understand your description/reasoning, so apologies if I'm way off, not to mention wobbling horribly off topic here...

If you are exploring some of the mechanics of ikkyo/ikkajo whereby uke stands with his arm locked straight, and challenges nage to do ikkyo (and ONLY ikkyo rather than an easier alternative to a straight arm i.e. applying hijishime!) - all nage needs to do is treat ukes straight arm like a jo, rotating it and turning it over as they lead out of ukes circle.

Hard to explain, and maybe like I've said, I may be misunderstanding, but it's a way of applying this technique that might be worth looking at.

Cheers

Ian

maikerus
04-19-2005, 06:27 PM
Alex,

I tend to agree with Ian in that it doesn't matter if the arm is straight or bent at 90 degrees. In both cases - even if the arm is "straight" - it is a little bent just because of the way the elbow works. In both cases you can control the shoulder by rolling the elbow and pushing slightly into the shoulder as you do so.

The only exception would be these people who's elbows hyperextend naturally and, well, do something else then.

Just a thought,

--Michael

CNYMike
04-19-2005, 11:00 PM
With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.

Well, I agree with the idea of the elbow being slightly bent. Most of the time, It's not a straight arm bar but what the Filipinos would call a branch down joint lock; it's just that the arm has stretched out. But you should still get that action of rolling the elbow forward to get what you want. But I can't remember a time when being uke for shomenuchi ikkyo and thinking, "Oh, now I have to bend my arm or I won't be able to fake ikkyo for my partner." Never. If anything, the bending is done by nage, not by me. Yes, I still have to "take ukemi" correctly, but that's more to ease the pain and prevent my knees from smashing into the mat than "faking" it.

As to pushing the elbow and pulling the wrist, well, some techniques do lock out the elbow like that, but that's not ikkyo *most of the time.* Has it occured to you that maybe your ikkyo just needs a lot of work? Because if you're having trouble, it could be just that you're not getting something right, as opposed to your uke just being bad. I learned a rule of thumb with Kali's grappling system: If I'm having trouble, it means I'm doing something wrong. And it applies to Aikido quite well, too.

xuzen
04-20-2005, 02:04 AM
With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.


Alex,

From your post, I believe you are too involve with the form rather than the essence of the techniques. Try this... when you do ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo whatever kyo, remember your hands and the twist is to maintain a connection only, what we should be attacking is their balance e.g., their knees. Think about it for a little while.

So if it is ikkyo, you've got him in the ikkyo position, move uke against their balanced position. If uke is being difficult, you can either pivot and do the tenkan version, if uke is anticipating a tenkan movement, move irimi. It is that simple, no one person can be strong in two places at one time (human only have one brain).

Ask your sensei or senior to explain it further, I believe you may be missing something there. A well executed technique should not leave holes to be exploited by the uke. And if he does, then the tori should be thankful he's got an honest uke.

Happy training,
Boon.

batemanb
04-20-2005, 03:06 AM
With a straight arm you don't get the leverage you need to perform ikkyo because the arm is basically used as a crank shaft or an allen key to force the body down. Other wise you end up trying make uke bend over by pushing their elbow away and pulling their wrist, which to be fair is pushing them forward more (actually it forces them to rotate around the elbow) than down and you can't push down with a locked arm that's stretched out in front of you on their elbow to stop them reversing it.

Craig, Ian and Michael all beat me to it, bent or straight elbow is not important. Practicing techniques is about learning and studying the principles within the technique, if you are struggling at this point, you are trying too hard to do the technique which means that you are causing the conflict, excactly what we are trying to avoid in Aikido. Remember, in a randori (I use this instead of saying "real life situation) I'm not trying to do a basic ikkyo every time, I just keep moving with uke until he is off balance and let him fall into a technique relative to our interaction.

Learning the principles within a technique does require a cooperative uke, this is how we learn to feel what's going on in the technique but that doesn't mean giving the technique away. In Aikido practice we work together to learn the form, one way today, slightly different next week, differnt again the following week and so on, so that when it comes to the randori, we are pliable and able to adapt our movement in order to guide uke's movement. I may start with an ikkyo motion, but if I feel resistance, I may change that to something else, which may look nothing like a dojo technique, but will contain all of the principles of a dojo technique. The important point being that I am flexible, pliable and adaptable. It's difficult to achhieve this without cooperative partners in the early years.

As someone else mentioned above, the level of your training partners will certainly influence the way you practice, you shouldn't worry about this too much right now. After 2 years of practice there is still plenty to learn and a lot of practice to do. This doesn't change whether you have been practicing for 10 years, 20 years or more.

rgds

Bryan

PeterR
04-20-2005, 04:34 AM
There's a form of randori in Shodokan Aikido called toshu randori - both participants are unarmed. Attacking and defending you are limited to the techniques found in the junanahon and their variations. You can initiate, react or counter. Quite an eye opener watching two people who know what they are doing.

As far as Ikkyo is concerned I might be committing heresy here but the technique is primarily a tegatana attack on the elbow causing a kuzushi. If you are able to gain control of the arm below the elbow, preferably closer to the wrist you continue with either omote or ura versions. If you can't you need to switch to something else. I think it is irrelevant whether the arm is bent or not.

Randathamane
04-20-2005, 09:01 AM
Hello- still rather new to aikido, but i know a little. I thought i would bounce this off you if that is okay.

After practicing the whole rotating the elbow as mentioned before, yes it works, very well in fact, but i feel that the whole trial and error, lacks the sense of urgency that may be present in a possible unwanted confrontation.

I have a golden rule:- If it take more than 4 seconds then you are in danger. Alot of you will object to this, but my logic would be that this is the shock period.
Shock period being that your attacker has not realized what you are doing- after 3 seconds he will start to fight back with a berserker style, kicking, screaming, biting, flailing and generally trying to cause trouble.

If he as 3 or 4 bigger and uglier mates around the corner that will run to his aid- i do not want to stick around. You must put the attacker (Uke) to the ground quickly and effortlessly. if 3 others charge you at once, they will not wit for you to finish your throw- they will jump you at once if possible. of course speed is not important- correctness is, but at times i feel speed may be needed.

This is just my opinion- i could be wrong, but this is how we train. Ultimately, what do i know?- i am after all only a 3rd Kyu and wouldn't preach my meager knowledge to others. let me know what you lot think.....

Of course the best option is to walk away and not get involved- this is always the best and i hope none of you ever have to use what you have learned.

:p

Ian Upstone
04-20-2005, 09:58 AM
4 seconds? It would have to be instantaneous, in my book! :)

The manipulation of ukes arm as descibed in earlier posts was intended as a learning/exploring experience on the mat, perhaps with an uncooperative uke (who knows what is coming) for the sake of learning how ikkyo/ikkajo works. It was suggested because an ealier poster doubted that ikkyo could be performed on a straight arm.

The "trial and error method" is a *learning* tool for the dojo. Exploring the mechanics of a technique with a partner doesn't have a 'sense of urgency' - but why should it? Trial and error isn't what anyone should be doing when their life may depend on it.

Techniques need to be ingrained so that they (or more precisely the movements including their principles) can be instantly applied without conscious thought. If you have to rationally think about what you need to do to perform X technique, it will probably be a failure as the intended recipient is likely to just shrug off an attempt to bend their arm...

Ian

CNYMike
04-20-2005, 11:21 AM
Hello- still rather new to aikido, but i know a little. I thought i would bounce this off you if that is okay.

After practicing the whole rotating the elbow as mentioned before, yes it works, very well in fact, but i feel that the whole trial and error, lacks the sense of urgency that may be present in a possible unwanted confrontation.

I have a golden rule:- If it take more than 4 seconds then you are in danger. Alot of you will object to this, but my logic would be that this is the shock period.
Shock period being that your attacker has not realized what you are doing- after 3 seconds he will start to fight back with a berserker style, kicking, screaming, biting, flailing and generally trying to cause trouble.

If he as 3 or 4 bigger and uglier mates around the corner that will run to his aid- i do not want to stick around. You must put the attacker (Uke) to the ground quickly and effortlessly. if 3 others charge you at once, they will not wit for you to finish your throw- they will jump you at once if possible. of course speed is not important- correctness is, but at times i feel speed may be needed.

This is just my opinion- i could be wrong, but this is how we train. Ultimately, what do i know?- i am after all only a 3rd Kyu and wouldn't preach my meager knowledge to others. let me know what you lot think.....

Of course the best option is to walk away and not get involved- this is always the best and i hope none of you ever have to use what you have learned.

:p

You have a good point, but the trade-off is you don't really work on learning the technique, and to a certain extant you are compromising your training safety. Like I said in a previous post, none of this stuff is easy and the devil is in the details. Slowing down, taking your time, that helps you learn and internalize things and then you can pick up the pace. Seeing what you can snag in three or four secons is another issue.

Joint locks and throws are a different game from punching and kicking and must be learned differently. Last night in Kali, my instructor devoted 45 minutes to having everyone practice different joint locks from a basic side hold down position. Is that the way you'd fight? No. But that is they way you learn what you will use later. Rolling around and trying to get something off someone who's resisting comes later.

Aikido faces the same learning curve because it is all joint locks and throws. Yes, in a real situation you don't have a lot of time to mess around, but as for LEARNING what to use in that situation, slow down, learn it, then pick up the pace later.

But then what do I know? I'm still new and haven't even taken the newbie test yet, though I have been around the block a time or three. :p :)

Ketsan
04-20-2005, 03:06 PM
Upon further thought ok it is possible I'll concede that assuming you mean the way that I think you do. The reason I didn't think of that earlier is because we've only done it something like twice in our dojo and I've always thought of it as being purely something found in Ju-jitsu, if it's the way I'm thinking of through number four suburi. If not for dad demonstrating it last night I'd probably not have thought of it, although his is the Ju-jitsu way. Irime or tenkan though I'm sticking to my guns. You cannot push someone down when you're at arms length from them, which you have to be to lock your arm on their elbow to prevent the reversal.

Grab a newbie fresh from the street tell them nothing but to stand still and do ikkyo on them.

Mind you I conceed that I might have spent two years training 3 and very occasionally 4 nights a week, 3 hours a night graded up to 3rd kyu and learned nothing which actually works, which since I'm learning the same Aikido as they do at So Hombu and visiting Shihans are very happy with us, worries me. But we've wandered from the topic which is about defending against Aikido.

bratzo_barrena
04-20-2005, 03:51 PM
Will Aikido really work?

Is a question I've asked myself many times. And the answer is, yes, it will. The second questions one should ask is MY AIKIDO will work?, well that depends on your level of training and your opponent(s)' level.

It's very common to read a question about a specific attack, or a specific technique taught in a aikido dojo at think how this would work against such or such attack.
well, thinking of the aikido techniques you train every class just as a series of standard responses to specific attacks is very limited. The way aikido is trained isn't exactly to develop a range of techniques for every possible situation imaginable, that would limit training to your imagination, what would aikido do in situations you can't imagine? Aikido techniques are trained to learn principles of body mechanics and structure, angles, timing, relationship between centers, etc, which are principles one can apply to any situation, yes the one you imagine, and the ones you don't.
Once you master this principles and apply them properly, anything you do is aikido. Sometimes what you do will be recognized as a technique you practice in class, sometimes will be something that just arose in the moment, not a "recognizable technique" per se.
But if it follows the principle, yes it's aikido.

Ketsan
04-20-2005, 08:17 PM
I think a better question is "Are the principles valid?" I find that Ju is so similar to but in a lot of ways far more refined than Aiki. The difference I find is in how each principle treats conflict. Aiki assumes control where Ju surrenders. Ju is about the reality of two energies meeting, there's a naturalness and an inevitability about it that Aiki just doesn't have. Aiki changes and pollutes the attackers energy, instead of just accepting it.
If Aiki were a willow tree it would seek to change the winds direction.

maikerus
04-20-2005, 10:38 PM
Alex...how long have you trained? in the various martial arts that you do?

Just curious,

--Michael

CNYMike
04-21-2005, 01:07 AM
..... Irime or tenkan though I'm sticking to my guns. You cannot push someone down when you're at arms length from them, which you have to be to lock your arm on their elbow to prevent the reversal.


:confused: :confused: Huh? Irimi nage doesn't take you out to arm's length! Your arms may be fully extended, but you are pretty much body-to-body with the your uke. There's one variation where you plaster uke's head to your shoulder.

Likewise, a 180 degree tenkan off katate dori puts you side-by-side with uke. Your arms may be extended again, but your body is -- or should be -- right next to his.

Although aikido's ma-ai is at what could be called boxing or kickboxing range, the execution of the techniques takes you in closer than that. Sometimes not totally body-to-body, as in some versions of nikkyo, but MOST OF THE TIME you are inside arm's length. So if you've been trying to apply your techniques without getting closer than arm's length, no wonder you're having problems! I've been trying to envision what you are talking about, and there's no other way to explain it than that, based on your description, you are too far away from your uke sometimes.


Grab a newbie fresh from the street tell them nothing but to stand still and do ikkyo on them.


Tonight we went over gokyo. My partner -- whom I must outweighed by at least 60 pounds -- had no problem moving me around, especially once she had her hips oriented correctly. I didn't think, "Oh, I have to go now or she'll be embarrassed." I was most definitely pulled along.

I can sit here stiff, sore, and achey from tonight's class, and as God is my witness, tell you with no reservation that I did not fake any falls for my partners tonight. The time I didn't fall over, when a training partner unexepctedly pulled a kotegaeshi on me, I felt enough pain in the tendons in the back of my right arm to make me understand why I should have. When a technique was apllied to me, it was done TO me by another person; I did not do anything to myself. Yes, I had to consiously remember how to take ukemi. But you kind of have to remember that when someone's elbow is on course for your trachea.


Mind you I conceed that I might have spent two years training 3 and very occasionally 4 nights a week, 3 hours a night graded up to 3rd kyu and learned nothing which actually works, which since I'm learning the same Aikido as they do at So Hombu and visiting Shihans are very happy with us, worries me ....

Well, you keep describing techniques and scenarios I have not experienced at all, so something could have gone wrong. I've been on the receiving end of dozens of ikkyos, and not once did I think, "Now, I must remember to bend my arm or my partner will not get ikkyo." I've had it bent a whole bunch of times, though. And not properly going with it has led to me experiencing more pain as I go down, not a flustered nage wondering why it didn't work. So if after all this time you think the only reason uke falls is because uke falls and nage has nothing to do with, maybe you learned something that didn't work. Or maybe you've got some things wrong. 'Cause I've been moved around by nages often enough to know there's more than going on than me saying, "Ok, time to fall now."

batemanb
04-21-2005, 02:26 AM
Although aikido's ma-ai is at what could be called boxing or kickboxing range, the execution of the techniques takes you in closer than that. Sometimes not totally body-to-body, as in some versions of nikkyo, but MOST OF THE TIME you are inside arm's length. So if you've been trying to apply your techniques without getting closer than arm's length, no wonder you're having problems!

Ma ai (i'm translating as correct distance) is a key factor here, and it is something that changes throughout the technique. The starting ma ai may be at a distance (arms length or greater), but mai ai is dynamic, it changes right through to the end, you may be touching hip to hip at some point within your movement, this is still ma ai for that point in doing the action. You don't stay at arms length throughout the technique.


You cannot push someone down when you're at arms length from them, which you have to be to lock your arm on their elbow to prevent the reversal.

I wouldn't lock my arms on anyones elbow, that just makes for too much tension and an opening for someone stronger than me to use.

Grab a newbie fresh from the street tell them nothing but to stand still and do ikkyo on them.

When I opened my own dojo last June, all of my students were first timer newbies, including a very large (nearly 7ft tall) Russian. My techniques had to work if I wanted to get the club off the ground. I'm still open with 14 regular students :).

rgds

Bryan

Ketsan
04-21-2005, 04:03 AM
:confused: :confused: Huh? Irimi nage doesn't take you out to arm's length!

Ok umm, pretend I said Ikkyo Omote or Ura. I was trying to convey that there's a difference between the way you take uke when you use number four suburi as opposed to entering in.

Ok so the way we do things uke bends their arm to recieve the technique and we keep a straight arm locked on their elbow to stop them reversing the technique and doing ikkyo on us. We even have an excersise where we do just that, tori does ikkyo about half way and then uke becomes tori and reverses it and you end up going backwards and forward ad nausium.

How long have I been training? Started off in Ju-jitsu for about 18 months- 2 years, the dojo closed so I did TKD for about six months before I joined this other place that did TKD but also taught Ju-jitsu and I was there for about 3 years then I went on to do Lao Gar style Kung Fu and kickboxing for about a year. The club then folded and the teacher suggested I go see my present Sensei as he had just started an Aikido club and that was two years ago in January.
Before all that my dad, brother and basically entire dad's side of the family started teaching me Ju-jitsu when I was small, so I suppose if you want to include that, it must be coming up for about 15-20 years now on an informal basis.

bratzo_barrena
04-21-2005, 11:09 AM
I think a better question is "Are the principles valid?" I find that Ju is so similar to but in a lot of ways far more refined than Aiki. The difference I find is in how each principle treats conflict. Aiki assumes control where Ju surrenders. Ju is about the reality of two energies meeting, there's a naturalness and an inevitability about it that Aiki just doesn't have. Aiki changes and pollutes the attackers energy, instead of just accepting it.
If Aiki were a willow tree it would seek to change the winds direction.



Alex Lawrence, you're 100% percent right, that's an excellent question, Are aikido principles valid? (and this should be asked for every MA). well, they are, and the only way to prove those principles are valid is experimenting them, so you can feel how angles, body alignment, extension, balance, etc, work, and how they affect the "opponent".
And I'm not talking about an ethereal energy, or magical power, in which I don't believe. Aikido uses principles of body structure and body mechanics to achieve control, redirecting the attack, moving your body to a position of structural advantage, so you gain control of the situation.
Is this magic, NO, it's physics.
Now, is this unique to aiki, absolutely not, every MA is based on body mechanics and body structure, because we all have 2 arms, two legs, one head...,
is this the best way?, better than other martial arts? no, it's not the best, there is no best. it's just a different approach to self defense.

you were wrong in saying aikido isn't about the reality and inevitability of two energies meeting. But actually is just about that, and how an aikidoist would redirect this energy, so he/she is not "hurt" and takes control of the situation, through body mechanics.

About quote: "If Aiki were a willow tree it would seek to change the winds direction".
Well willow trees don't do aikido, people do aikido. and we have two legs to move away of the "wind" to a position were we can redirect it.

PS.: excuse my grammar, English isn't my native language

CNYMike
04-21-2005, 11:15 AM
Ok umm, pretend I said Ikkyo Omote or Ura. I was trying to convey that there's a difference between the way you take uke when you use number four suburi ....

What's number 4 suburi? I don't know what that is. Even then, the footwork associated with ikkyo takes you in closer than when you were when you started. Omote and ura determine where you go, but you don't stay there. Alligning your hips properly makes a big difference, too.

..... as opposed to entering in.

Ok so the way we do things uke bends their arm to recieve the technique ....

So let me get this straight: Your sensei has actually TOLD you that uke must bend their arm? Not that nage does something to make the arm bend but has actually instructed you to your face that to be a good uke, uke must bend the arm? Which would be a shock to me beause in two styles of Aikido I never heard anything like that!

...... and we keep a straight arm locked on their elbow to stop them reversing the technique and doing ikkyo on us .....

Ok, it's been a while since I did anything with ikkyo but shomenuchi ikkyo, but I am still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that uke has to remember to bend the arm and not get it bent by nage/tori. It just hasn't been my experience that as uke, I have to remind myself to bend my arm as opposed to having it bent for me. That just doesn't jive with what I've been doing.


..... We even have an excersise where we do just that, tori does ikkyo about half way and then uke becomes tori and reverses it and you end up going backwards and forward ad nausium.


Yes, I did that drill once. I liked it. But again, when my partner performed ikkyo on me, I did NOT, repeat NOT bend my own arm so he could get it. He seemed to have no trouble getting it without my hel.


How long have I been training? Started off in Ju-jitsu for about 18 months- 2 years, the dojo closed so I did TKD for about six months before I joined this other place that did TKD but also taught Ju-jitsu and I was there for about 3 years then I went on to do Lao Gar style Kung Fu and kickboxing for about a year. The club then folded and the teacher suggested I go see my present Sensei as he had just started an Aikido club and that was two years ago in January.
Before all that my dad, brother and basically entire dad's side of the family started teaching me Ju-jitsu when I was small, so I suppose if you want to include that, it must be coming up for about 15-20 years now on an informal basis.

Great! I've also been training for 20 years (I started when I was 20), predominatly shito-ryu karate but I have also done Shotokan, TKD, Western Boxing, European Fencing, another style of Aikido called Seidokan, and Wing Chun; and I am currently doing shito-ryu karate, Aikido, Kali, Pentjak Silat Serak, and Tai Chi. And even then there are plenty of things I get yelled at for in aikido, in many cases mistakes I keep making but that I'm not aware of until someone points them out to me. And there are lots of things I have to work on -- in fact, they were part of my justification for going back.

So this backs up what I said earlier: You are coming into Aikido with a respectable amount of martial arts experience and training with people who have much less if not are just starting out. This is why it feels like they barely have you. It is not Aikido is bad or fake but that they are where you were a very long time ago. Yes, you could muscle your way out of it, but that is because you are an old geezer who's been around working with people who are just barely starting.

I ran into the same thing when I followed my sensei to an Aikido seminar he taught in Cincinnati: Many times I was working with kids who barely had me, and yes, I had to consciously choose to go with them. This is not because Aikido is bad; it is because they are relatively inexperienced, whereas I have been around a lot. It makes a big difference. Seems what I'm saying?

So to try and veer this back toward the topic, since your strategy is based on the idea that Aikido doesn't work without a good uke, well, that may be based on the perception of an experienced person working with new people, and as such, not correct. Meaning your strategy has a fatal flaw.

bratzo_barrena
04-21-2005, 02:08 PM
[QUOTE=Alex Lawrence]
"Ok so the way we do things uke bends their arm to recieve the technique and we keep a straight arm locked on their elbow to stop them reversing the technique and doing ikkyo on us. We even have an excersise where we do just that, tori does ikkyo about half way and then uke becomes tori and reverses it and you end up going backwards and forward ad nausium."

Hi there,
I have a few of comments about your ikkyo.
When tori applies ikkyo, shouldn't be concerned about bending uke's arm or keeping it straight, because ikkyo can be applied on an bended or straight-locked elbow. What tori should be concerned about is bracking uke's balance, move to the correct angle, apply extension, etc.
If uke bends or keeps his arm straight depens on how he receives the technique, but in both cases ikkyo could be applied. So what's the difference? The difference is in ukes ability to keep a centered body. If uke keeps his arm stright and elbow locked (important: this will not stop an ikkyo properly done) the fact is that tory needs less extension or movement to brake uke's balance, why because with the elbow lock the force of the extension goes directly to the body. If uke recieves the ikkyo bending the elbow, the movement of the joint gives ukes more flexibility and tori need more extension to affect ukes balance.
But, whether uke bends or not his elbow, shouldn't stop tori from being able to effectively apply ikkyo.
so from tori's point of view, whats the difference if uke bends his arm on if he doesn't?
well, if ukes doesn't bend his arm, tory needs less extension to brake uke's balance, once uke's balance is broken, you don't need to forcefully bend his arm, keep it straight, apply pressure on the locked elbow, and uke will go to the mat, otherwise the elbow is gonna get broken.
If uke bends his arm when tori applies ikkyo, tory needs more extension to brake uke's balance, but at the same time, the bended arm can be use as a lever, pressing the elbow down, and the wrist up. so we finish in a position where uke's facing to the mat, with the elbow pointing down, and the hand at a higher level, this position prevents him from standing up. press the elbow down, and uke goes to the mat.
be careful, if uke's elbow is pointing up and his hand is in a lower level than the elbow, will be very easy for uke to stand up.

i hope i was able to express myself properly and clearly, English isn't my native language.

Ketsan
04-21-2005, 08:25 PM
I'm not that old you know! I'm only 22 :) Just that I've been taught practically from the day I could walk or maybe 5 or 6. I don't know, as long as I can remember because messing around with my family invariably ment being taught something. Formal in the dojo training started when I was about 15, so I'll claim no great knowlege.

Uke doesn't *have* to bend their arm but apparently there's a risk of injury if they don't and since it occasionally hurts a bit when Sensei slams ikkyo on and by the way I end up in position to break newbies elbows, I assume that curving the arm is there for just that, injury prevention, bit like the way uke tenkans on shi-ho nage.

Number 4 suburi? It's just changing stance. You're in kamae, lets say right kamae. Bring your left foot so that it's level with your right so that you're standing with your feet together. Now step back with your right foot into kamae. Of course we still do forward/back foot irime and back foot irime tenkan.

I see what you're saying, a more experienced tori might be able to throw me. It would be arrogant of me to flat out deny that it's possible. To my mind it would depend on how the uke's they'd trained with behaved. If they'd spent time training with uke's trying to defeat them and who really fought back, then ok fine, maybe but I don't think training with a co-operative uke will ever really prepare you for anything other than a fight with a co-operative uke.
Train as you fight, fight as you train basically and I don't know anyone that fights like an uke.
This is only half my argument though. The other half is that Aikido often leaves itself open to attack by ignoring anything which doesn't fit into it's world view, kicks especially. It's not like you need to deliver a massive bone cruching round house, you just need to disrupt their technique, you need not even land it, just freak them a bit.
Classic example during two man attack, I dropped the first uke who landed in front of me and between me and the second uke. I kept my guard low because if I was the uke on the floor I would be kicking me in the groin or solar plexis or trying to take my legs.
Sensei tells me to to keep my guard up because of the second uke, even though he was well out of range and obstructed and thus far less of a threat than the uke on the floor placed perfectly to strike.
I also understand that it's about learning principles too but on the street you'll be using the techniques that you're trainned to use albeit with some adaption.

CNYMike
04-21-2005, 11:42 PM
..... Uke doesn't *have* to bend their arm but apparently there's a risk of injury if they don't and since it occasionally hurts a bit when Sensei slams ikkyo on and by the way I end up in position to break newbies elbows, I assume that curving the arm is there for just that, injury prevention, bit like the way uke tenkans on shi-ho nage.

There are a couple of reasons the bend can get there. Two of the three basic positions for joint locking an arm involve having the elbow bent. I think the way we do ikkyo uses one of those positions because you snag the elbow and roll it forwards. The bend is still there, but it's stretched out. Although you see it more blatantly with sankyo and yonkyo.


..... I see what you're saying, a more experienced tori might be able to throw me. It would be arrogant of me to flat out deny that it's possible. To my mind it would depend on how the uke's they'd trained with behaved. If they'd spent time training with uke's trying to defeat them and who really fought back, then ok fine, maybe but I don't think training with a co-operative uke will ever really prepare you for anything other than a fight with a co-operative uke.


Since I referring to training situations in the dojo, you had damn well better NOT be fighting back, and you've already noted that your sensei's ikkyos can hurt a bit. If that doesn't verify that more advanced people don't have better technique, then I don't know what does.


Train as you fight, fight as you train basically and I don't know anyone that fights like an uke.


In the first place -- and you should know this by now -- Ukemi Waza have two objectives:

1. Safety In other words, this is so Tori can slam uke into the ground without uke actually getting killed. This another one of those "safety" things you alluded to.

2. Learning the technique Apparently, receiving a tenchnique is the best way to learn what it feels like, and what's going on when it's done right. I've begun to appreciate this myself. So, in addition to being a safety measure, it's a learning tool. Did I say learning? Yes, learning.

The prohibition against full blown randori -- trying the technique om someone who's fighting back -- goes all the way back to O Sensei, so it's kind of pointless to whine about it. It's like complaining about losing a chess game beacuse you didn't get a full house. Hello, there is no full house in chess -- that's poker. You want resisitance, you can either cross train in or switch to something that does it, but it's pointless to complain about Aikido not having it. Deal with it.


This is only half my argument though. The other half is that Aikido often leaves itself open to attack by ignoring anything which doesn't fit into it's world view, kicks especially. It's not like you need to deliver a massive bone cruching round house, you just need to disrupt their technique, you need not even land it, just freak them a bit.


True, but -- and I pointed out before -- western boxing does not have kicks either. Nor does it deal with it. My Kali instructor has repeatedly praised boxers for being good at what they do, but they do not deal with kicks. Period. See any screeds on the 'net blasting boxing for "ignoring" kicks? Didn't think so.

So the list of things Aikido specializes in doesn't include kicks. Big fat hairy deal.


Classic example during two man attack, I dropped the first uke who landed in front of me and between me and the second uke. I kept my guard low because if I was the uke on the floor I would be kicking me in the groin or solar plexis or trying to take my legs.
Sensei tells me to to keep my guard up because of the second uke, even though he was well out of range and obstructed and thus far less of a threat than the uke on the floor placed perfectly to strike.


Next question: Are you getting the most out of your Aikido class if you selectively listen to your sensei? I would bet the asnwer is "no."

Over the past year or so, I have learned that by putting myself in "sponge mode" and just learning what one of my instructors is teaching, I have got more out of that class. When I work out on my own, I do a little bit of everything, but in class I focus on the class I do what I'm told; I get more out of it that way.

It's up to you how you approach your training, of course. But I don't think you're getting the most bang for your buck if you don't just abosrb what your sensei says. You can play around and experiment on your own.


I also understand that it's about learning principles too but on the street you'll be using the techniques that you're trainned to use albeit with some adaption.

My kali instructor might agree with you on that. But he's also very big on training principles. Why? Because when you internalize the principles, you GENERATE technqiues. So if you internailzed Aikido's principles, it's conceivable you could generate all sorts of counters to different things, isn't it? You come up with new techniques to train with and put in your bag of tricks ... but you need the principles first.

xuzen
04-22-2005, 01:15 AM
Dear people,

Was in parctice yesterday and I thought of testing my sensei out a little. (Oops! Sacrilege, I know and I am so ashame :sorry: ).

We were doing ryote katate mochi tenshin nage (two hand grab heaven and earth throw). So as uke to my sensei, I did not go down but resisted the throw to my maximum ability.

What happened next was a blur but if I'd recall vaguely, sensei's hand went to my lapel, then he jerk/twist me there. That jerk/twisting motion was an example of principle of atemi which was used to distract me and momentarily stun me. When I was stunned, my resistant instantaneously dropped to zero. Then he proceeded to throw me using; I don't know, could be continuation of tenchinage or maybe he changed to iriminage or maybe Tani otoshi (judo type throw). Anyway in the next second, I was on the floor, slightly dazed and with a whiplash on my neck and sensei was already in a ready stance waiting for me to get up to be thrown again. Then whole process maybe lasted only a couple of second from my resistance to me on the floor.

If I wasn't sure about the ukemi, I would not try. But since I tried that, the price I paid was a whip-lashed neck but the lesson learned is the feeling of helplessness I experienced when he threw me. That was priceless. And that was from me who was bent on resisting my sensei from the very start of the technique.

Lesson learned, now nursing a whip-lashed neck and waiting for the next opportunity to learn some more. Sigh! So much to learn, so little time.

Boon.

batemanb
04-22-2005, 02:49 AM
What happened next was a blur but if I'd recall vaguely, sensei's hand went to my lapel, then he jerk/twist me there. That jerk/twisting motion was an example of principle of atemi which was used to distract me and momentarily stun me. When I was stunned, my resistant instantaneously dropped to zero. Then he proceeded to throw me using; I don't know, could be continuation of tenchinage or maybe he changed to iriminage or maybe Tani otoshi (judo type throw). Anyway in the next second, I was on the floor, slightly dazed and with a whiplash on my neck and sensei was already in a ready stance waiting for me to get up to be thrown again. Then whole process maybe lasted only a couple of second from my resistance to me on the floor.



This is something that I alluded to back in post #58. The dojo is a place to practice principle, to learn principle and to learn to understand principle.

When it comes to something else (randori, or "real" situation), I am not going to try and force the technique because that's the way we practice it in the dojo, because I get it in my head that I'm going to do ikkyo, or tenchinage. I am going to adapt my movement with uke until a technique happens. It probably won't resemble the dojo ikkyo or tenchinage, the important part is that I use the principles learned, just as Boon's sensei did.

rgds

Bryan

maikerus
04-22-2005, 02:52 AM
When it comes to something else (randori, or "real" situation), I am not going to try and force the technique because that's the way we practice it in the dojo, because I get it in my head that I'm going to do ikkyo, or tenchinage. I am going to adapt my movement with uke until a technique happens. It probably won't resemble the dojo ikkyo or tenchinage, the important part is that I use the principles learned, just as Boon's sensei did.

Just a note that Boon must have used the principle's he's learned in the dojo, too or else he wouldn't be walking around. He'd be buried 12cm deep in that mat. ;)

Way to survive, Boon...a touch of whiplash...good on ya!

--Michael

wendyrowe
04-22-2005, 09:03 AM
... So as uke to my sensei, I did not go down but resisted the throw to my maximum ability.... Then whole process maybe lasted only a couple of second from my resistance to me on the floor...
Makes sense to me. There are different ways to train, and using them at various times gives you the best base. We pretty much follow this progression as we train each technique:

1. Train cooperatively using a particular technique, uke not resisting (but not being flaccid, either). This allows nage and uke to learn the basics of the technique (body positioning, timing, and how to receive the technique safely)

2. Train cooperatively using a particular technique, gradually increasing uke's resistance. The more uke resists, the better your technique (positioning and timing) needs to be.

3. Train cooperatively using related techniques, with uke giving serious resistance. In this case, if uke is resisting the particular technique too much for nage to succeed with it, nage switches to a related technique since by resisting the first one uke will be leaving himself/;herself more open to one of the others.

4. Randori. Here, both parties are trying to use any techniques (or an agreed-upon subset) on each other at the same time, rather than taking turns as they did in the other training methods. In randori, it is very clear that you'd better not keep trying the same technique if your opponent is resisting it too hard. It's also very helpful to do randori with people other than your "usual" partner (if you have one), since you won't be testing your technique's limits if you only use it on people with whom you've cooperated before so you know what to expect to some degree.

CNYMike
04-22-2005, 09:03 AM
.... So as uke to my sensei, I did not go down but resisted the throw to my maximum ability.

What happened next was a blur but if I'd recall vaguely, sensei's hand went to my lapel, then he jerk/twist me there. That jerk/twisting motion was an example of principle of atemi which was used to distract me and momentarily stun me. When I was stunned, my resistant instantaneously dropped to zero. Then he proceeded to throw me using; I don't know, could be continuation of tenchinage or maybe he changed to iriminage or maybe Tani otoshi (judo type throw). Anyway in the next second, I was on the floor, slightly dazed and with a whiplash on my neck and sensei was already in a ready stance waiting for me to get up to be thrown again. Then whole process maybe lasted only a couple of second from my resistance to me on the floor.


Yeah, one of the ideas that seems to be built into Aikido is that if the first thing you try doesn't work, try something else. It's most obvious in irmi nage, but we'be played with say, you try ikkyo, it doesn't work, so you abort and switch to another technique.

In fact, now that I think of it, I "inspired" Sensei with one of these combinations one of my first classes last year! I don't remember what technique we were supposed to be doing, but apparently, I was reflexively standing up when I shouldn't have. Sensei saw it and came over and was using my uke to show how to compensate for that and he hit on the idea of cutting down with both hands on uke's arm; my uke (who, fortunately for him, is a senior student and could take the ukemi) slammed into the mat with a loud WHAM! (See what I mean?)

Sensei liked what he'd thought of very much. So he stopped the practice and showed everyone. Seeing uke's break fall, another new person said something like, "My husband is expecting me home alive." Fortunately, all us newbies got off with a rear sitfall.

Not as spectacular as Boon's, and I didn't get any whiplash, but it illustrates the principle. So if you have a "newbie" you can't do ikkyo (or whatever your first choice) is, abort and go to something else.

Randathamane
04-22-2005, 09:54 AM
To my mind it is going to be very difficult to throw somebody that does not want to be thrown. Locks are all well and good, but as somebody pointed out from before- they must be instantaneous.

If Uke is committed to staying on balance and is absolutely determined to stay upright then that is what they will do. Many at this point will scream at their screens saying "take their balance". Thats the thing- balance is only broken until it is restored (one basic principle of ju-jitsu and alot of its seconds). if you are pushed backwards and lose your balance- 1 step will resolve the problem. the same is true in Aikido.
if you are off balance move to restore it. simple really.

Aikido is a brilliant martial art in that it limits such options by attempting to break Ukes posture. But at the end of the day- that is all it is- an attempt, and with all attempts they can fail. People should be more aware of this.



:ai: :ki: :do:

Kevin Kelly
04-22-2005, 03:39 PM
Number 4 suburi? It's just changing stance. You're in kamae, lets say right kamae. Bring your left foot so that it's level with your right so that you're standing with your feet together. Now step back with your right foot into kamae. Of course we still do forward/back foot irime and back foot irime tenkan.



hmmm...the only saburi I know of are the Ken and Jo saburi. Is this some sort of open hand saburi? Just wondering.

Ketsan
04-22-2005, 05:43 PM
Oh no doubt you can critise Boxing etc for not dealing with kicks but the original question was about defending against Aikido, not Boxing. Boxing and Aikido are functionally different. Boxing is for public entertainment viz sport. Aikido is for self defence and therefore there is little basis for comparison since the aims that gave birth to each art are diametrically opposed. Boxing has no need to defend against kicks because they're illegal in the sport and if used will result in the fighter being disqualified. Aikido which is intended to be used in every day life against anything the opponent can throw at it, does need to worry about kicks.
Simply stating that lot's of other martial arts don't bother with them doesn't protect you from them. It's a big fat hairy deal until your knee pops from a round house. Having studied other arts it's probably not a problem for you but I think it's a serious problem for someone that's only done Aikido.

It's a martial mind thing, first make yourself invincible, then seek battle. Keep an eye on what your enemy is doing, study how they do things and why, find their weak spots, acknowlege your own weak spots and cover them.

I listen to everything my Sensei tells me, there's no point me being in the dojo otherwise.

CNYMike
04-22-2005, 10:44 PM
...... Boxing and Aikido are functionally different .....

Yet both are specializations. That's my point. There are arts like Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do that are all encompassing and other arts that are not.



..... Aikido ..... Having studied other arts it's probably not a problem for you but I think it's a serious problem for someone that's only done Aikido.


That's valid. Then again, as you know there are plenty of anecdotes out there about Aikido teachers successfully dealing with kicking attacks even though they haven't trained against kicks. I tend to agree with yes, not being exposed to kicks can be a problem. On the other hand, if someone who has only done Aikido chimes in and claims to have dealt with a kicking attack, I'm not going to sit here and call that person a liar or lecture him about why that shouldn't have happened.

..... I listen to everything my Sensei tells me, there's no point me being in the dojo otherwise.

Good.

CNYMike
04-22-2005, 10:47 PM
To my mind it is going to be very difficult to throw somebody that does not want to be thrown .... If Uke is committed to staying on balance and is absolutely determined to stay upright then that is what they will do ....

There are plenty of people in and out of Aikido who can be almost impossible to move, no doubt about it. Even if you do everything right, they're still worth their weight in powdered cement.

Randathamane
04-25-2005, 03:45 AM
Simply stating that lot's of other martial arts don't bother with them doesn't protect you from them. It's a big fat hairy deal until your knee pops from a round house

Too true. Such attacks do exist and they are far more deadly than punches. Simple anatomy- the leg is stronger then the arm...

For a martial art to not deal with these types of attacks is folly. Yes i would agree that aikido is a specialization- but that would suggest that you need another art to back it up.
I do not agree with this. Aikido would work fine- but unfortunately kicks and knee attacks were completely written out of aikido. In my opinion- this could have catastrophic consequences. Against punches no question, but aikido lacks the ability to deal with attacks using the lower half of the body.
I have never seen a kick in the dojo in 3 years of practice. On the other hand however, i have witnessed a few fights and kicks were well in play.

Earlier in the thread somebody stated "you are not likely to train to defeat aikido".
Very true- but if you are trained in karate, kick boxing or TKD, you will kick if the opportune moment arises.


:ai: :ki: :do:

Ian Upstone
04-25-2005, 11:05 AM
unfortunately kicks and knee attacks were completely written out of aikido.

Where were you told this? Although not covered in basic syllabus (or is that syllabi? :)) Aikido works very well from kicks, treating them as you would any other attack (i.e. move off line!). As for knees - if your opponent has got this close, your aikido has already failed!

The two main reason kicks are not covered in basic techniques as far as I know, is that an initial attack is rarely going to be a kick (only martial artists would develop enough skill to be effective with them as an initial attack) and also because the ukemi involved can be rather unpleasant, even for folks with reasonably good ukemi skills.

I've been thrown with sokumen iriminage when attacking with a front kick - with my leg caught in the lower hand. (an optional bonus for tori/nage!). Nasty breakfall!

Ketsan
04-25-2005, 07:15 PM
Aikido works well from kicks provided they're used as initial attacks.
Kicks generate so much body movement that it's pretty obvious somethings on the way and as such they shouldn't be used for inital attacks.
Used to disrupt techniques, though, I think they'd be very usefull. Any kick, even a simple football kick is going to cause trouble at point blank range with your hands full. All it needs to do is act as atemi.

W^2
04-25-2005, 07:31 PM
Hello Everyone,

I didn't read the rest of the posts, so I will limit my comments to the few aforementioned posts on defending against kicking techniques. Having trained in Aikido & Muay Thai, I'll throw in my two cents...

In Aikido, Happo No Kuzushi is the answer to defending against kicking techniques (among others), simply put. Any direction but forward will work against a centerline attack using the legs/feet, and all will work against transverse strikes -- you don't even need to use your hands, just move along an unbalancing line and the strength of their strike will disipate.

The caveat, of course, is being connected to your partner/opponent and controlling the rhythm, which is the whole point, from a strictly martial point of view.

Now I will venture off into an abstract issue related to this topic, as is typical for me. Feel free to stop reading at anytime... ; )

Every martial art has three general phases of training, regardless of the technical syllabus:

1) The training/retraining of an individuals mind, body, and dare I say spirit -- knowing yourself (Sun Tzu).

2) Learning to connect to your partner/opponent/enemy.

3) Controlling your partner/opponent/enemy -- knowing your enemy (Sun Tzu).

You are trained to 'win' - however you choose to define that - by methodically eliminating unknown variables and controlling known variables. It's almost too easy...

The point of this little diatribe is that techniques are often the focus of discussion when comparing physical attributes of various techniques, etc. However, in doing so we're looking at it out of context. You should be training to control your environment, including the people within it, and we do that by controlling our interactions. As a result, you should only be defending against a kick because that is what you want to do, and the direction of the attack is your opponents way of showing you how they want to be defeated.

Ciao,

Ward

CNYMike
04-25-2005, 11:50 PM
Aikido works well from kicks provided they're used as initial attacks.
Kicks generate so much body movement that it's pretty obvious somethings on the way and as such they shouldn't be used for inital attacks.
Used to disrupt techniques, though, I think they'd be very usefull. Any kick, even a simple football kick is going to cause trouble at point blank range with your hands full. All it needs to do is act as atemi.

It's worth noting that Filipino Kali doesn't have you initiate attacks with kicks, but make you throw out a hand technique and then the kick can come in behind it. They also prefer low kicks to the groin or legs. Not many people in or out of Aikido train against them. A Thai round kick can also be applied from in very close because it doesn't involve fully extending the leg. One of those bad boys hits your leg and you're not conditioned to take it, game over.

I think someone thurooughly grounded in Aikido's principles could handle it, but it would be a real hairball because the situation would be very complicated and dynamic; the window of opportunity for "blending" would come and go in a second. Miss it and you're toast.

geoffsaulnier
04-26-2005, 02:21 AM
Uke doesn't *have* to bend their arm but apparently there's a risk of injury if they don't and since it occasionally hurts a bit when Sensei slams ikkyo on and by the way I end up in position to break newbies elbows, I assume that curving the arm is there for just that, injury prevention, bit like the way uke tenkans on shi-ho nage.
Hmmm - well, the curve is there so that you can break the balance in a reasonable size movement without getting into a strength contest. It is very hard to actually get ikkyo on a straight arm whilst standing, and it is also harder than you think to break an elbow whilst standing (best bet would be to slam your elbow down on theirs). ikkyo, the technique, is really about balance and taking their centre. ikkyo, the "principle," is really the kneeling lock applied.
I see what you're saying, a more experienced tori might be able to throw me. It would be arrogant of me to flat out deny that it's possible. To my mind it would depend on how the uke's they'd trained with behaved. If they'd spent time training with uke's trying to defeat them and who really fought back, then ok fine, maybe but I don't think training with a co-operative uke will ever really prepare you for anything other than a fight with a co-operative uke.
This is the kind of stuff you think when you have not been training long enough to think differently. You can either take it on trust that you will feel differently about this in a few years, or just wait til you get there, but the key is just to keep training. At some point, you will suddenly "get it" and all this stuff about uke fighting back and all that will go away. What uke does will not really matter any more beyond the fact that (1) they give you a decent, energetic attack and (2) you keep them safe when applying the technique.
Train as you fight, fight as you train basically and I don't know anyone that fights like an uke.
It's not possible to train as you fight, or you would have no partners left. This is a martial art, not a sport. In sports, there are rules, and they keep people safe. In fights, there are no rules, and people keep safe usually by running away or killing/maiming/incapacitating everyone else. Try that in the dojo, and it's likely to be you last lesson... I would certainly kick your ass out into the street with an invitation to not return.

On the flipside, if you fight as you train, you'll get your butt kicked. Aikido doesn't look like what you train, usually, when you use it "for real(tm)." There are very few techniques at that stage. There is body movement, atemi, lots of kokyu nage, irimi nage, maybe the odd kote gaeshi, but that's likely to be about it, technique-wise. The rest will be creating what's required for the given situation thanks the the principles you have absorbed. Of course, every now and then, a technique will just present itself, and you'll get it in there, but that's rare.
This is only half my argument though. The other half is that Aikido often leaves itself open to attack by ignoring anything which doesn't fit into it's world view, kicks especially. It's not like you need to deliver a massive bone cruching round house, you just need to disrupt their technique, you need not even land it, just freak them a bit.
No. Not true. Aikido deals with vectors of attack and attack energy along that vector. Kick are just like punches, really - the actual limb that's doing the striking doesn't really matter at all. if your principles for dealing with attack vectors and energies are well learned, it all becomes the same stuff. Obviously, if you're stuck at the stage where you're trying to get sankyo on their foot, you (1) will get your butt kicked and (2) need to train a lot more til you understand. To be more precise - treat a roundhouse kick at any level like you would a yonkyo, treat straight kicks at any level like tsuki, and anything fancy probably requires minor movement to nullify (like moving off the line, etc).
Classic example during two man attack, I dropped the first uke who landed in front of me and between me and the second uke. I kept my guard low because if I was the uke on the floor I would be kicking me in the groin or solar plexis or trying to take my legs.
Sensei tells me to to keep my guard up because of the second uke, even though he was well out of range and obstructed and thus far less of a threat than the uke on the floor placed perfectly to strike.
He was probably right, and you were probably wrong. That's not certain, but I was not there and therefore cannot comment, but from what I have read here... Sounds to me like your ma ai was incorrect if you had to worry about the uke on the ground and that you were fixating on them. Just do what you've got to do and get to proper distance and they can't kick you. Also, remember the artificial setting in the dojo - you dropped them and they're still able to kick you? In "real life" they would be unlikely to be in any shape to even move, let alone get a good kick at you. If they are in position to kick you when you finish the technique, you did it wrong.

The guard bit is also a bit movie-aiki. You are much less vulnerable it you give no indication of your guard in outward physical signals - your attacker has to then decide what they heck to attack. If you have an obvious kamae, you get into bluff and double bluff situations around opening, etc.
I also understand that it's about learning principles too but on the street you'll be using the techniques that you're trainned to use albeit with some adaption.
Like I said above, if you approach a "real" situation like this, you're gonna lose. If you approach it with no preconceptions and prepared to deal with the energies of the situation as and when they arise, you will likely be OK.

geoffsaulnier
04-26-2005, 02:26 AM
There are plenty of people in and out of Aikido who can be almost impossible to move, no doubt about it. Even if you do everything right, they're still worth their weight in powdered cement.
True - they are a great test! Of course, if you're in the right place to apply the technique, you are (1) in a safe place and (2) ideally placed to get in some devastating atemi. A few of those, and they will eventually move.

Also, if you take the balance on the initial attack and extend that, that path leads fairly naturally to the ground no matter how big or strong they are. You cannae change the laws of physics, captain!

geoffsaulnier
04-26-2005, 02:31 AM
Yet both are specializations. That's my point. There are arts like Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do that are all encompassing and other arts that are not.
There are martial arts (read - no rules) and sports (= rules). Boxing is a sport. Aikid and jeet kune do are martial arts.
That's valid. Then again, as you know there are plenty of anecdotes out there about Aikido teachers successfully dealing with kicking attacks even though they haven't trained against kicks. I tend to agree with yes, not being exposed to kicks can be a problem. On the other hand, if someone who has only done Aikido chimes in and claims to have dealt with a kicking attack, I'm not going to sit here and call that person a liar or lecture him about why that shouldn't have happened.
Does five years as a bouncer count? My proudest achievement over that time is that I hurt very few people, but that I got hurt even less (one black eye and a sore rib - I can cope with that). As I say (in a previous post), it's about vectors of attack and attack energy along those vectors. It's not about kicks and punches.

CNYMike
04-26-2005, 10:34 AM
There are martial arts (read - no rules) and sports (= rules). Boxing is a sport. Aikid and jeet kune do are martial arts.


Yet boxing techniques are incorporated into Jun Fan/JKD, because they are very good at what they do at their range. And when you look back at Filipino boxing, which (to say the least) influenced Western Boxing, you find the same techniques and guard positions. There are plenty of martial artists who stand by boxing for a variety of reasons.

The trick is to look beyond the label of "sport" or "martial art" and look dispassionately at the skills or tool sets you are getting. Aikido gives you one set of tools. Boxing gives you another set of tools. LaCoste/Inosanto Kali gives you a gazillion tools as well as a tool board, if you will, that shows how everything fits together. So does Jun Fan/JKD, although I never studied that -- just got a load of digressions and asides about it over the years from my Kali instructors who also just happen to be Jun Fan/JKD instructors. Yep, they talked a lot. I think they take after Guru Dan Inosanto. :)

jester
04-26-2005, 11:29 AM
There's a form of randori in Shodokan Aikido called toshu randori - both participants are unarmed. Attacking and defending you are limited to the techniques found in the junanahon and their variations. You can initiate, react or counter. Quite an eye opener watching two people who know what they are doing.

To me, this is a very important way to train. It is where I learned to flow from one technique to another. It can get quite intense if both uke's push it. It can also be done real slow, but both uke's have to keep the slow pace.

My instructor always said, nothing ever works. Meaning that if something fails, it opens up something else. Don't assume that a technique will work. Almost 100% of the time, if you try to make a failed technique work, you will end up being thrown or locked.

Ketsan
04-26-2005, 03:11 PM
It's not possible to train as you fight, or you would have no partners left.
On the flipside, if you fight as you train, you'll get your butt kicked.

Well it's a balance thing. I certainly wouldn't like to spend my training sessions having a full on fight, but just now and then have uke use a bit of creativity to keep me on my toes and stop me getting into a fixed mindset.


To be more precise - treat a roundhouse kick at any level like you would a yonkyo, treat straight kicks at any level like tsuki, and anything fancy probably requires minor movement to nullify (like moving off the line, etc).

If the kick is an inital attack then yes I totally agree with you. If, however, the kick comes at the very start or a technique as you're dealing with a punch or maybe even another kick you're at the very least going to have to abort the technique you're doing, or take the kick. The same is true, if they hop/step back on balance during a technique and lash out with the other foot or use your energy to boot you. Shi-ho nage for example turns me so I can dump some more energy into that turning movement, pirouette on one foot and smash the other into Tori.


Sounds to me like your ma ai was incorrect if you had to worry about the uke on the ground and that you were fixating on them. Just do what you've got to do and get to proper distance and they can't kick you. Also, remember the artificial setting in the dojo - you dropped them and they're still able to kick you? In "real life" they would be unlikely to be in any shape to even move, let alone get a good kick at you. If they are in position to kick you when you finish the technique, you did it wrong.

There are lots of wrong Aikidoka then I invariably get dumped in good positions to kick from. Yes getting dumped on concrete hurts, yes you'll be pain for a week or so but it's never stopped me getting my own back on the person responsible for it. Usually I'm too pumped up on adrenalin and or too grumpy to care about pain. I grew up in a pub and I've seen people smashed into wooden floors, tarmac, concrete, onto broken glass, brick, you name it and I've never seen any one just lay there afterward and just take whatever's coming. Occasionally I've seen them get up and decide it's not wise to carry on but I've also seen them get up and go berzerk.


Like I said above, if you approach a "real" situation like this, you're gonna lose. If you approach it with no preconceptions and prepared to deal with the energies of the situation as and when they arise, you will likely be OK

True but it's also nice to enter into a situation with the realisation that there are energies involved that you might not have trained for.

Chris Birke
04-26-2005, 03:58 PM
How do I defend against Aikido?

This question is essentially "how do I defend against defensive tactics"?

Is anyone out there training offense?

Roy Dean
04-26-2005, 07:16 PM
I couldn't have said it better myself! After studying aikido for last 9 years or so, I am working with some really good MMA and BJJ guys and I am getting my ass handed to me. I thought I was pretty good but I am finding out that things are much, much different when you go up against skilled opponents.

That said, unskilled, not one problem using my aikido, it works great, just ask the two new guys I kotegaeshi'd today!

Things are much different when the cooperation stops!


This is exactly why I fell in love with BJJ, and why I think "mainstream" Aikido could benefit from their training methods. Questions regarding reversing or countering techniques become self evident through DOING, with resistance. It's all reversible, whether through tactics or redirection, regardless of the techniques employed, regardless of the style.

PeterR
04-26-2005, 09:39 PM
Is anyone out there training offense?
Sen no sen timing.

Chris Birke
04-26-2005, 10:12 PM
Ooh, you transcended my question! ;D.

PeterR
04-26-2005, 10:52 PM
:D

CNYMike
04-26-2005, 11:49 PM
.... If the kick is an inital attack then yes I totally agree with you. If, however, the kick comes at the very start or a technique as you're dealing with a punch or maybe even another kick you're at the very least going to have to abort the technique you're doing .....

:confused: :confused: And .... this is a showstopper? The principle of aborting if the first thing you try doesn't work is built into some techniques like irimi nage and now and again we've done "combinations," such as you try ikkyo or nikkyo, it doesn't work, so you have to switch to something else. So at the very least, many Aikido people should be acquainted with the principle of aborting and retrying if not the specific scenario. :confused:

CNYMike
04-27-2005, 12:02 AM
This is exactly why I fell in love with BJJ, and why I think "mainstream" Aikido could benefit from their training methods. Questions regarding reversing or countering techniques become self evident through DOING, with resistance. It's all reversible, whether through tactics or redirection, regardless of the techniques employed, regardless of the style.

The other night, I was reading part of "Secrets of Aikido" by John Stevens. In respomse to complaints from within and without Aikido that uke and nage cooperate too much, Stevens said, "That's the point."

Oh, well. So much for that debate; point to Alex. And I doubt "mainstream" Aikido will be borrowing from BJJ any time soon. It's like saying baseball players need to work on their field goal kicks. Not gonna happen.

That said, it's beginning to look to me like ukemi waza is probably one of the hardest parts of the art. You're no good to nage if you drop before he or she can even apply the technique. On the other hand, if you resist too much, depending on nage's skill, you either get a frustrated nage (me -- actually happened in Kali some years ago) or an airborne uke (which I've seen). Neither helps much. It has to be ..... juuuuussssttttt riiiiiggghhhht. There's a timing element in there, and you have to be pretty aware of what nage's doing to "play your part."

Hmmmm.

In a previous post I alluded to the fact that if, when and how much to resist is a complicated question. I'm beginning to appreciate that.

Ian Upstone
04-27-2005, 02:05 AM
Shi-ho nage for example turns me so I can dump some more energy into that turning movement, pirouette on one foot and smash the other into Tori.

Try this on your instructor... ;)

maikerus
04-27-2005, 02:37 AM
Try this on your instructor... ;)

:D I was thinking the same thing :D

:cool:

xuzen
04-27-2005, 03:48 AM
Try this on your instructor... ;)

Yeah, why haven't I thought of that advice before. Hey Alex...

Try what you mention on your sensei and tell us what happen OK?

Love to hear more from you ;)

Boon.

Ketsan
04-27-2005, 07:59 AM
Once I nearly got caught doing it, as soon as my heel came off the ground though the class started wetting itself laughing so he knew something was up and I got full on evil eye. :D We keep score of who hits him you see, at the moment I'm well out in front with something like 6 or 7, including two bokken strikes. I mean if he pins me and says "Do you want to get up?" I take it as an open invitation to get up although probably not any more because he's figured out that wrenching my thumb out of it's joint stops me wanting to get up. :D He knows how hard I am to pin.
He's a bloody good sensei, has to be said. I've learned so much from him, I've never seen such dedication.
Mind you if I said I could boot him from shi-ho nage he'd probably be like "Oh ok then" and away we'd go, but then he'd know it was coming. Anyone else in the world from Doshu down ok fine I'll do it but not Sensei. Too much respect.

Randathamane
04-27-2005, 09:59 AM
Once I nearly got caught doing it, as soon as my heel came off the ground though the class started wetting itself laughing so he knew something was up and I got full on evil eye. :D We keep score of who hits him you see, at the moment I'm well out in front with something like 6 or 7, including two bokken strikes. I mean if he pins me and says "Do you want to get up?" I take it as an open invitation to get up although probably not any more because he's figured out that wrenching my thumb out of it's joint stops me wanting to get up. :D He knows how hard I am to pin.
He's a bloody good sensei, has to be said. I've learned so much from him, I've never seen such dedication.
Mind you if I said I could boot him from shi-ho nage he'd probably be like "Oh OK then" and away we'd go, but then he'd know it was coming. Anyone else in the world from Doshu down OK fine I'll do it but not Sensei. Too much respect.


You are not on seven you little cheek! five is far more the score. (on 4 myself [2tsuki,1 hip throw, 1 B-E-A utifull bokken slice])

Anyhow- the point still stands that Aikidoka need to at least acknowledge the presence of a kick. True in that they are rare- true that nobody will ever train to defeat aikido and true that some techniques can be adapted.
However- if sensei turned round to me and said "Uchi-irimi sankyo, finishing up in sotokitenage" and proceeded to try and hit me with a Fencing sabre i would be completely clueless.
If the roundhouse is coming in and you have 1/2 second to react, what are you going to do?
-The submissions only work against the bones in the arm and cannot be "directly" converted on the fly- so rule those out.
-Shio Nage is never going to work as all Uke/ attacker would do is slam his foot down, killing the technique.
-Iriminage if you can bet behind Uke maybe... Maybe... actually that would work quite sweet...
-Tenchinage. Not a chance in hell am i walking into a roundhouse kick!
UchiKiten nage- Ummmmm. No. is not going to happen
Sotokitennage- Outside wrist turn... On a foot? Perhaps some butchered form would work.
Kotegaeshi- Alright that one is fairly good in a tight spot.
UdeKemonage- May well work
Jujinage- Impossible.
UdeGodeannage- I wouldn't risk it....

That is only my knowledge thus far. If anybody else knows otherwise feel free to rip me apart (in writing of course) :D :D :D :p


:ai: :ki: :do:

Tim Gerrard
04-27-2005, 12:51 PM
-Tenchinage. Not a chance in hell am i walking into a roundhouse kick!


I find Tenchi Nage works quite well against a kicking uke, you've got less resistance as one leg is raised. Which side are you going on, the kicking side? You can get someone horizontal with this technique. :D

Roy Dean
04-27-2005, 01:56 PM
And I doubt "mainstream" Aikido will be borrowing from BJJ any time soon. It's like saying baseball players need to work on their field goal kicks. Not gonna happen.

In a previous post I alluded to the fact that if, when and how much to resist is a complicated question. I'm beginning to appreciate that.


I'm glad to read you appreciate your own sentiments more and more over time.

It's a shame though, that the "borrowing" of training methods from other arts is "not gonna happen." Mits Yamashita advocated doing this years ago. Even Dan Inasanto has said that training methods are all you can really take away from studying under high level martial artists. Most of the students in my BJJ class are forward thinking Aikidoka that have FELT the power of the training method, and want to evolve and incorporate these skills.

I don't think your analogy holds up, either. Judo, Aikido, and BJJ are all grappling methods. I see little difference between them, as Tomiki also saw little difference between the first two, and sought to improve one with the training method of the other.

Roy Dean

CNYMike
04-27-2005, 07:49 PM
.... Even Dan Inasanto has said that training methods are all you can really take away from studying under high level martial artists.....

Guro Dan has also said that every martial art has something to offer. Guro Kevin Seaman, one of my Kali instructors, who has his instructorship from Guro Dan, had a sign on the wall of his now-defunct school which said, among other things, "I will refrain from criticisizing other martial arts styles and systems because they all have something to offer." And he and Guro Andy Astle, under whom I am continuing Kali (and Pembantu Andy also has permission to teach Pentjak Silat Serak from Maha Guru Victor de Thouars, so that's how I got into that) are HAPPY I got back into Aikido. Pembantu Andy is said he's happy I'm doing everything I do because "that makes a better Michael Gallagher."


..... I don't think your analogy holds up, either. Judo, Aikido, and BJJ are all grappling methods. I see little difference between them, as Tomiki also saw little difference between the first two, and sought to improve one with the training method of the other.

Roy Dean

Maybe. On the other hand, the prohibition against "competions" goes all the way back to O Sensei, and IIRC, Tomiki ran afoul of it. If avoiding certain training methods is part of Aikido's "game," then the analogy does hold up.

Either way, I'm not really losing any sleep over it. Whether it was by accident or design, my Kali instructors left me with a "live and let live" attitude towards the way different MA are put together. Yeah, I guess I could say, "Based on my long yahrs of experience with karate, kali, Wing Chun, and most recently, Pentjak Silat Serak, I think Aikido should do things THIS way instead of the way they are doing things," but that's not in me (and I wouldn't be surprised if being a horse's backside in Aikido would [at the very least] cost me points with Pembantu Andy; he takes respect VERY seriously). I'm more like, "So this is the way they do things? Ok. What will I get out of it? I guess I'll have to keep doing it if I want to find out." (Which is also the appropriate attitude considering that my Aikido needs a LOT of work!)

But then again, that's me. YMMV.

CNYMike
04-27-2005, 08:09 PM
Didn't reall read this article before ( :o ), but I'ver backtracked to it and given it some thought.

.... The same is true, if they hop/step back on balance during a technique and lash out with the other foot or use your energy to boot you. Shi-ho nage for example turns me so I can dump some more energy into that turning movement, pirouette on one foot and smash the other into Tori ....

I have to admit, I'm having a little trouble visualizing what you're talking about. But if Tori isn't wedded to the idea of finishing the technique as advertised and can abort and go with the flow, it may be risky.

In particular, if the kick you are using involves bending over, that is risky because Tori could think, "Oh, you're heading down for me? Thank you. Let me help you the rest of the way." Factor in that you have one foot on the ground instead of two, and you may -- I repeat, MAY -- hit the ground harder than you had planned.

Of course, you can delete that problem by keeping both feet planted and doing something like a spinning backfist, but if you spin too fast, you could end up with your back to nage while he's still facing you. This is the position some throws go for, usually by having nage move around uke. In this case, uke would HAND that position to nage on a silver platter! THUD.

Also bear in mind the position your arm is twisted into suring shiho-nage. For safety, I'm always being yelled at to keep it close to my uke's head so it doesn't unwind and wrip some muscles and tendons. If you unwind your own arm in the midst of your counter while nage is still hanging on, you could hurt yourself.

Just a few thoughts. Again, nage could be caught flat-footed and it would work, but maybe not. YMMV.

Randathamane
04-28-2005, 04:26 AM
I find Tenchi Nage works quite well against a kicking uke, you've got less resistance as one leg is raised. Which side are you going on, the kicking side? You can get someone horizontal with this technique. :D

OK maybe- if you are fast and kind of lucky. However, as the roundhouse is coming in for the flank say, the only method for dealing with it would be to take it round chudan.
Personally i do not believe my arm could combat a kick- that to me seems like a block- confrontation.
no way. If he wants to swing his body- let him! Help him on his way and take for irimi-nage. This is far simpler.

i doubt Tenchinage would work from moving in. Simple anatomy- the leg is far stronger then the arm and so the potential risk to your arm far outweighs the possibility of success. Besides moving straight in seems to be rather confrontational...
just my opinion- How would you propose that Tenchinage is done?


:ai: :ki: :do:

Nick Simpson
04-28-2005, 06:38 AM
Step offline and hit them in the face and or collar bone. Its not to difficult, in dojo practise around here it is probably the most common response to a kick (along with direct iriminage and sokumen-iriminage). In a "real" confrontation, if someone was stupid enough to try and roundhouse me, Id be more than happy to try a tenchinage on them.

A kick like a roundhouse is generally a big long movement, you can generally see them coming a mile off. Its not too difficult to move out of the way. Isnt that the first rule of Aikido? Move.

Also, a kick is only dangerous when it has reached its full point of extension. Why would you let it do that? Seems pretty stupid to me...

" doubt Tenchinage would work from moving in. Simple anatomy- the leg is far stronger then the arm and so the potential risk to your arm far outweighs the possibility of success. Besides moving straight in seems to be rather confrontational..."

The leg may be stronger than the arm, but the arm doesnt have to go anywhere near the leg to perform Tenchinage. The concept of Irimi seems confrontational to you? Perhaps you should ask your sensei for a kicking session, I think you'd really enjoy it and would learn some interesting stuff :)

Edit: Forgot to add the obligatory disclaimer that I am not dissing Kicking arts. Far be it. There are some wonderful kicking techniques and strikes and of course Im sure a superb Karateka or Taekwando exponent would proceed to kick me senseless :uch:

But that isnt the way we kick in Aikido (generally Mae-Geri and Mae-Geri-Washi, in our dojo's at least) and its fairly unlikely that in a "real" confrontation you would be fighting said skilled martial artist. An Aikidoka and another MA student would hopefully know better than to waste their time in folly like this. However, things in life are rarely uncomplicated...

geoffsaulnier
04-28-2005, 08:25 AM
If the roundhouse is coming in and you have 1/2 second to react, what are you going to do?

Whatever comes to (your hopefully blank) mind. Sitting here, I can think of so many options!!
1 - step in/forward with outside foot, sweep round and back with inside foot, and smash my fist towards kicker's face.
2 - step in, reach for hair, ears, gi, whatever, and butt them in the face
3 - step towards the kick (remember that kime is what causes damage, and if you meet the attack before kime, you should be OK) grab the leg and
3a - kick them in the nuts
3b - flip the leg over and lock the foot/ankle and/or knee
3c - drop a massive elbow on the knee
4 - step in and towards the kick, with your back to the kick, then spend a few seconds extricating your hand from amonst their ribs
5 - there are some nicer variations on the above, honest
6 - etc, etc

And don't come to me with the "you can't punch in aikido" or whatever! Last time I looked, there were no rules.

geoffsaulnier
04-28-2005, 08:30 AM
Slightly more on topic - who said there are no attacks in aikido? And who said aikido is a purely defensive art?

You can grab, kick, punch, whatever you want, to get a reaction from the adversary. As long as the reaction has a little energy, you can use it. If not, just go through them!! You don't need an attack to do irimi nage, tenchi nage, some kokyus, etc.

More to the point of the topic, though, is that specific aikido techniques are tricky (understatement!) to use as attacks. But then, the techniques are training tools that are only very occasionally useful in the real world... Aikido is not the techniques, but the sum of all the parts of you, your training, the situation, your mood/attitude, etc.

Ketsan
04-28-2005, 11:30 AM
I have to admit, I'm having a little trouble visualizing what you're talking about. But if Tori isn't wedded to the idea of finishing the technique as advertised and can abort and go with the flow, it may be risky.

Tori holds you hand that you've just tried to punch him with, he then goes omote, perfoming shi-ho nage. Instead of making tenkan, you lift your forward foot and do a front foot round house into anywhere you like. If he aborts, he get's kicked and ends up side on to you.
You can do it off the back foot too if you yank your arm back or use a front kick. Basically by holding on to you they've holding themselves in brilliant place to be kicked.


In particular, if the kick you are using involves bending over, that is risky because Tori could think, "Oh, you're heading down for me? Thank you. Let me help you the rest of the way." Factor in that you have one foot on the ground instead of two, and you may -- I repeat, MAY -- hit the ground harder than you had planned.
Don't know of a kick that requires you to bend over, unless you're talking about leaning back.


Also bear in mind the position your arm is twisted into during shiho-nage. For safety, I'm always being yelled at to keep it close to my uke's head so it doesn't unwind and wrip some muscles and tendons. If you unwind your own arm in the midst of your counter while nage is still hanging on, you could hurt yourself.


Only if you don't pull your arm to your center or move your center to your arm. :D Besides tori wouldn't get that far into the technique. If the kick was part of a combo tori would react to the punch and get caught by the kick as he moves in.

geoffsaulnier
04-28-2005, 12:52 PM
Tori holds you hand that you've just tried to punch him with, he then goes omote, perfoming shi-ho nage. Instead of making tenkan, you lift your forward foot and do a front foot round house into anywhere you like.
Only if the technique sucks - the omote entry should have you practivally bent double with no balance or stable base to kick from. If you yank your arm in, the ura form applies, and the tenkan is too quick for you to get a kick in. I disagree with you completely that this would stand a chance of working. Not with me, anyway! ;-)

I refer you to a previous answer, anyway, and say that you are very unlikely to have a competent aikidoka doing shiho nage to you in a realistic situation. In the dojo, it is a very valuable learning/teaching tool, and it is a technique that, if done right, has uke totally under your control - you can throw them anywhere, move them around, use them as a shield or pin them - they never have the opportunity to attack you as you are in a safe position, and they are in "worst condition." If not, it's being done wrong.
Don't know of a kick that requires you to bend over, unless you're talking about leaning back.
Only if you don't pull your arm to your center or move your center to your arm. :D Besides tori wouldn't get that far into the technique. If the kick was part of a combo tori would react to the punch and get caught by the kick as he moves in.
Unlikely if the punch was committed, as your balance would be broken almost at the instant of contact. If the fist is snapped back (as it should be) and/or the punch is a faint and not committed, you either don't enter and maintain you ma ai, or you just enter much more deeply, getting to the safe position just behind the shoulder of the punching arm. The kick would have no extension or kime and would be harmless, leaving uke expose to some very nasty counters.

Ketsan
04-28-2005, 02:06 PM
Only if the technique sucks - the omote entry should have you practivally bent double with no balance or stable base to kick from. If you yank your arm in, the ura form applies, and the tenkan is too quick for you to get a kick in. I disagree with you completely that this would stand a chance of working. Not with me, anyway! ;-)


Umm, if you manage to complete the entry yes. It should. If you keep your arm in there is no shi-ho nage though omote or ura. Try it. Keep your elbow on your body and ask someone to do shi-hi nage on you.


I refer you to a previous answer, anyway, and say that you are very unlikely to have a competent aikidoka doing shiho nage to you in a realistic situation.


People tend to do exactly what they're trainned to do in the dojo. We have a saying in our dojo when a newbie asks what technique we'd do in a given situation: "It is as it falls".


Unlikely if the punch was committed, as your balance would be broken almost at the instant of contact. If the fist is snapped back (as it should be) and/or the punch is a faint and not committed, you either don't enter and maintain you ma ai, or you just enter much more deeply, getting to the safe position just behind the shoulder of the punching arm. The kick would have no extension or kime and would be harmless, leaving uke expose to some very nasty counters.

Well it wouldn't be shi-ho nage then would it? So there would be no need to counter shi-ho nage. Besides you're assuming uke throws a punch big enough to unbalance himself.

geoffsaulnier
04-28-2005, 03:16 PM
Umm, if you manage to complete the entry yes. It should. If you keep your arm in there is no shi-ho nage though omote or ura. Try it. Keep your elbow on your body and ask someone to do shi-hi nage on you.
Actually, that's not true - shiho nage can still be done, but it tends to be extremely uncomfortable for uke. It just means doing ura sinking down a bit more.
People tend to do exactly what they're trainned to do in the dojo. We have a saying in our dojo when a newbie asks what technique we'd do in a given situation: "It is as it falls".
In a sense, you are correct. This is why we keep training until the aikido becomes spontaneous, where you create every technique from scratch depending on everything about a situation. Then, you do exactly as in the dojo - you create the appropriate response. This will seldom be a well defined technique.
Well it wouldn't be shi-ho nage then would it? So there would be no need to counter shi-ho nage. Besides you're assuming uke throws a punch big enough to unbalance himself.
It is dangerous to fixate on a technique. It is also true that any technique can be countered, expecially when you know what it will be. This is also true of any strike. If there's no shiho nage there, then why fixate on it - do something else! That's aikido. Of course if, on striking uke or whatever (from that safe position), uke reacts in such a way that shiho nage is there, then do it!!

As for the balance comment - no. I am assuming that uke throw whatever punch they want. In attack, uke's mind is a little out of balance, so I might be able to lead their mind. If not, I can physically unbalance them by entering correctly. If the punch is a faint, I can still choose not to enter.

Randathamane
04-29-2005, 04:34 AM
If the punch is a faint, I can still choose not to enter.

Minor problem is that one cannot tell a feint from a real attack until it is completed. And if you do nothing, the feint could be a reboublement and still hit you.

As for the matter of balance- this is always the key in our dojo. However, given that sensei is demonstrating and guiding newer people through slowly, Uke rarely trays to escape, counter or throw punches.
This appears to be the same in how all aikidoka train. they go with it, relaxing and falling. I go to the same Dojo as Alex L. I can throw him until th cows come home and vi ca versa. However, when one gets sick of looking at the roof, the jabs start and we "play-fight". Neither can throw the other for fear of as soon as i get him a fist/ elbow/ knee/ leg is coming my way. many techniques break into sacrifice maneuvers- which sort of defeats the point of aikido.

Anyhow- after all of my waffle the point is this- anybody can throw an Uke who wants to be thrown. Throwing someone who has come at you with a jab and really wants to stay upright is the real challenge.

Spoke to a friend of mine a few weeks back about the whole balance thing and his answer was brilliant. "restore it" he said. This guy has never done any martial arts in his life and so is the prime example of what would happen out there in the big, wide (and horrid) world.
Thats the thing, somebody's posture and balance is only broken until they restore it. This can be done at any time that Uke wishes- all they have to do is think about how.
Try demonstrating Irimi nage on a friend who is clueless about aikido- the first thing they do, THE FIRST THING is look at where you are moving and move to counter it.
unless someone is going full for you at 100% commitment, the attempt of outflanking or getting behind is pointless.

:ai: :ki: :do:

rob_liberti
04-29-2005, 07:44 AM
I give up balance for safety and honesty in my training. I agree that an attacker who is more concerned with maintaining their balance than giving an honest attack and/or staying safe is going to be very difficult to deal with safely and/or honestly (since they are not concerned for it!).

Attack someone like Gleason sensei honestly, and I think you'll have a difficult time trying to simply restore your balance. Attack him dishonestly, and you'll probably find that whatever openings there are in your "attack" will get filled.

Rob

Nick Simpson
04-29-2005, 02:18 PM
Its horses for courses isnt it? If someones attacking with keeping in balance in mind all the time then you would just proceed to lamp them or hurt them with a technique rather than unbalance/throw them.

Murgen
04-29-2005, 04:51 PM
If somebody thinks they can ignore kicks in their martial art, they are in big trouble!! I don't believe spontaneous improvised Aikido techniques are going to do anything but open you up to a butt whipping. You have to train realistically against them and build your techniques. They are fast, and they are powerful when fired off by somebody who has been doing them for a long long time.

Underestimating kicks is the same as someone dismissing Aikido as a dance. Just plain ignorant. They can break your leg, knees, wrists, arms, head so it's probably a good idea to learn something about them.

Here is some Muay Thai clips of Ramon Dekker. Go to a Muay Thai camp and do some traning. Your respect for kicks and punches will increase dramatically.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/442/
http://www.mikemiles.com/video/dekkerpena.mpg
http://www.mikemiles.com/video/dekkersaengtiennoi.mpg

Aiki LV
04-29-2005, 05:36 PM
[I]Hey all,

Just say that you find yourself in a defensive situation and someone is attempting to use Aikido on you, he already may you off balance a bit, is Aikido, if implemented correctly and quickly enough, defendable against?

Deep thoughts Deep thoughts?[I]

1. If someone is trying to attack you using "aikido", it is no longer truly aikido. Depending upon there intention and the technique they use it is most likely going to be some form of aiki-budo, aiki-jujitsu, etc. THIS IS NOT AIKIDO, THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

2. If this hypothetical situation is meant to represent a "real life" attack by someone, it is not a realistic one. Most skilled martial artists of any style, form, etc. are not going around on the street picking fights or robbing people. They are off making money in some way or teaching people.

3. One of the most important lessons I've learned through personal experience and other people's experience is that if you go looking for trouble you are going to find it or it will find you. In other words about 80% of the time if someone gets into a "fight" they did something to provoke it.

Anyway I'm sorry for the tangent, but in my mind these distinctions are important ones. ;)

CNYMike
04-29-2005, 07:00 PM
Tori holds you hand that you've just tried to punch him with, he then goes omote, performing shi-ho nage. Instead of making tenkan, you lift your forward foot and do a front foot round house into anywhere you like. If he aborts, he get's kicked and ends up side on to you.
You can do it off the back foot too if you yank your arm back or use a front kick. Basically by holding on to you they've holding themselves in brilliant place to be kicked.


Still having a problem. Maybe it's my lack of imagination, but ....

When we do shiho nage in the dojo I go to, we end up really close to uke -- far too close for most fully-extended TKD and karate kicks. If you're not that close, you could be doing something wrong. Your best bets would be something like a hook kick, which really flexible TKD guys can do in close; or a Thai round kick, which can be done very close.

Even then -- and feel free to correct me on this --- it sounds like you're advocating turning against the direction shiho-nage can rotate you in. Potentially risky, especially given that your base will be to one foot, which is an inherent problem with kicking.

Maybe hanging on sets nage up to be kicked, but remember also -- and if you've done grappling you will know this --- that if nage has developed touch-sensitivity, hanging on is the way to tell if you're up to something, especially if, as noted above, you're in close. Also, if nage is responding to a boxing-style jab or cross to the head, shiho-nage is still possible, but the setup might be something different than what you'd expect.

Tenkan in response to shiho nage omote? :confused: That's a new one on me.


Don't know of a kick that requires you to bend over, unless you're talking about leaning back.


Again, I'm assuming a relatively in close situation, definitely inside punching range. So if you were going for a head-level TKD style kick, depending on the kick chosen, might require leaning back for flexibility. Having said that, I should add I'm NOT a TKD expert, so I could be wrong about that.


Only if you don't pull your arm to your center or move your center to your arm. :D Besides tori wouldn't get that far into the technique. If the kick was part of a combo tori would react to the punch and get caught by the kick as he moves in.

Only if you're quicker than Tori, but we're postulating a Tori who's quick enough to snag you're first or second punch in your combination. In which case, you might have hit him already, so the exercise is academic.

Ketsan
04-29-2005, 07:41 PM
Still having a problem. Maybe it's my lack of imagination, but ....

When we do shiho nage in the dojo I go to, we end up really close to uke -- far too close for most fully-extended TKD and karate kicks. If you're not that close, you could be doing something wrong. Your best bets would be something like a hook kick, which really flexible TKD guys can do in close; or a Thai round kick, which can be done very close.


Yeah we end up really close too.


Even then -- and feel free to correct me on this --- it sounds like you're advocating turning against the direction shiho-nage can rotate you in. Potentially risky, especially given that your base will be to one foot, which is an inherent problem with kicking.

No going with the technique, only with your weight on the back foot and kicking with the front.

Maybe hanging on sets nage up to be kicked, but remember also -- and if you've done grappling you will know this --- that if nage has developed touch-sensitivity, hanging on is the way to tell if you're up to something, especially if, as noted above, you're in close.

Yeah but there's a lot going on, you're in the middle of a technique, having your arm yanked while a round house is coming at you.


Tenkan in response to shiho nage omote? :confused: That's a new one on me.


Yeah as tori enters, uke tenkans so that at the end uke falls infront of tori. Supposedly it's safer.


Again, I'm assuming a relatively in close situation, definitely inside punching range. So if you were going for a head-level TKD style kick, depending on the kick chosen, might require leaning back for flexibility. Having said that, I should add I'm NOT a TKD expert, so I could be wrong about that.

Well tori's arms would be in the way of a high level kick, I was thinking more mid/low section. Besides high kicks are liable to cause you to fall flat on your arse.

Ketsan
04-29-2005, 07:43 PM
Its horses for courses isnt it? If someones attacking with keeping in balance in mind all the time then you would just proceed to lamp them or hurt them with a technique rather than unbalance/throw them.

:D

Nick Simpson
04-30-2005, 07:19 AM
;)

CNYMike
04-30-2005, 10:10 AM
Yeah we end up really close too.


Right, so I'm having trouble seeing how you can get enough distance for a roundhouse kick, unless you .....


No going with the technique, only with your weight on the back foot and kicking with the front.


If tori has already started to twist your arm, shifting your weight back brings with it the risk of the arm elongation I mentioned before. Unless your plan is to yank tori with you. But that can have it's own problems.


Yeah but there's a lot going on, you're in the middle of a technique, having your arm yanked while a round house is coming at you.


That "yank" would speak volumes to someone with well-developed touch-sensitivity. You shouldn't poo-poo it -- my Kali insturtor has that skill, and he can tie you in knots without looking at you.


Yeah as tori enters, uke tenkans so that at the end uke falls infront of tori. Supposedly it's safer.


If your sensei actually told you to do it, for a safety measure -- actually said, "Uke should tenkan for safety" -- then no problem. Otherwise, you've been shho-nageing yourself and not letting nage do anything. No wonder you think you've been throwing yourself -- you have, but because you went to far to be a good uke, not because there's anything wrong with what you've been taught.


Well tori's arms would be in the way of a high level kick, I was thinking more mid/low section. Besides high kicks are liable to cause you to fall flat on your arse.

Ok. Still figuer you're too close, and even then, accelerating a kick in the direction tori wants you to rotate anyway.

Not saying it's a sure thing, just that your strategy assumes tori is absolutely unable to counter your counter, but there are openings there for tori you have to watch out for.

thomas_dixon
04-30-2005, 02:24 PM
You can't just yank someones arm and expect them to just flow with it. Your leg is coming for them? Their fist is coming for you. Not to mention that if you're using both hands then you're tying yourself up, leaving them room to pound your face in or kick the knee in of the opposite leg than the one you're using to try and pull your roundhouse off. (they also have a free hand to block with)

Plus it leaves you open for a shoot to the knees.

Ketsan
05-01-2005, 05:52 AM
You can't just yank someones arm and expect them to just flow with it. Your leg is coming for them? Their fist is coming for you. Not to mention that if you're using both hands then you're tying yourself up, leaving them room to pound your face in or kick the knee in of the opposite leg than the one you're using to try and pull your roundhouse off. (they also have a free hand to block with)

Plus it leaves you open for a shoot to the knees.

Don't expect them to flow with it, I just expect to disrupt their technique. Both their hands are on mine, as for shi-ho nage, where do they get the third hand to punch me? If he let's go to punch, excellent. I'm at point blank range and I'm already attacking, he's fighting the fight I want him to fight rather than vice versa.

thomas_dixon
05-01-2005, 01:27 PM
Don't expect them to flow with it, I just expect to disrupt their technique. Both their hands are on mine, as for shi-ho nage, where do they get the third hand to punch me? If he let's go to punch, excellent. I'm at point blank range and I'm already attacking, he's fighting the fight I want him to fight rather than vice versa.

And if they shoot for your knees?

CNYMike
05-01-2005, 03:31 PM
Don't expect them to flow with it, I just expect to disrupt their technique ....

See previus posts in the thread WRT "abort/try something else." And this assumes that in trying to get the range required for a roundhouse kick, you don't pull tori crashing into you just as you're lifting your foot off the ground. And this assumes you do it early enough. And that assumes you know it's shiho-nage to begin with.

CNYMike
05-01-2005, 10:19 PM
Don't expect them to flow with it, I just expect to disrupt their technique. Both their hands are on mine, as for shi-ho nage, where do they get the third hand to punch me? If he let's go to punch, excellent. I'm at point blank range and I'm already attacking, he's fighting the fight I want him to fight rather than vice versa.

Hey, Alex,

If you haven't seen it already, here is a message in another thread in the general category:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102696&postcount=4

So this reinforces the notion that the fact that you are coming up with all sorts of counters is not a sigh that Aikido is weak or bad but that you're learning, so it can be taken as a good sign! Try and look at the bright side instead of getting hung up on what bothers you. Just a thought.

Ketsan
05-02-2005, 09:37 AM
And if they shoot for your knees?
They better be small, there's a round house on the way and they're shooting into it, so they'll need to get under it.
Besides since when do Aikidoka shoot for the knees? We're defending against Aikido here not Ju-jitsu.

CNYMike
05-02-2005, 04:17 PM
..... since when do Aikidoka shoot for the knees? We're defending against Aikido here not Ju-jitsu.

One of the counters to nikkyo I've seen so far is to "drop" as close to nage as close as possible, and one of the things you can do is tackle nage. A training partner did this to me once last year; you land pretty hard when uke does that.

Then there's Aiki-otoshi, where you schooch in from the side, grab both your partner's knees, and dump on his behind. It's very similar to a thrown done grabbing the nearest leg -- Aikido goes for both, although I've heard of an Aikido teacher teaching the variation where you go for the nearest leg.

I know Aiki-otoshi isn't in most books on Aikido that have come out over the years, and I didn't see it in Seidokan. However, the dojo I'm in now has done it from time to time; the sensei of a dojo we're tight with once taught it as counter to Irimi nage. And The Aikido Master Course -- Best Aikido 2 by the Doshu has it and koshi nage, that firerman's carry hip throw that O Sensei is shown doing in an old picture in another book. So I guess the answer to "Since when...?" is "Forever."

(Personally, I was crestfallen to leanr that; I'd spent sixteen years thinking Aikido doesn't have that pick him up and dump him stuff; how wrong I was! On the flip side, I don't see how uke could "throw themselves" through Aiki-Otoshi and koshi nage. Haven't done koshi nage yet, but I've received aiki-otoshi; your goal is to slap out just as you land so you don't hit to hard; nage does the pick-up-and-dump part.)

Rember, O Sensei studied many classicla jujitsu systems, and that's where the techniques come from. Yes, he put his own mark on it, but since that's where the techniques come from, you'd be out of your mind not to see a good number of them represented.

CNYMike
05-03-2005, 07:25 AM
The following post in another thread makes the point I'd originally been trying to make much better than I did:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102851&postcount=41

.... and even then, my thinking comes from my Kali instructor, who says it's more likely you'll be in a fracas with some doof with little or no formal training rather than a trained NHB fighter. Hats off to Mr. Townson for making my point quite well.

Ketsan
05-03-2005, 01:48 PM
Then there's Aiki-otoshi, where you schooch in from the side, grab both your partner's knees, and dump on his behind. It's very similar to a thrown done grabbing the nearest leg -- Aikido goes for both, although I've heard of an Aikido teacher teaching the variation where you go for the nearest leg.



Aiki-otoshi is one of those old school Ju-jitsu techniques. My dad has a really nasty version that elbows you in the face/chest as he lifts your legs so that you end up rotating around your hips before crashing down onto the ground.

CNYMike
05-03-2005, 10:51 PM
Aiki-otoshi is one of those old school Ju-jitsu techniques .....

Not surprising because Aikido evolved from jujitsu, yet it is part of the Aikido curriculum. So yes, Aikidoka do go for the legs.

Tim Gerrard
05-04-2005, 02:15 AM
Besides since when do Aikidoka shoot for the knees? We're defending against Aikido here not Ju-jitsu.

Where do you draw the line between the 2? Since aikido doesn't have rules as such, what constitutes 'vaild' technique?

Ketsan
05-04-2005, 04:41 PM
Where do you draw the line between the 2? Since aikido doesn't have rules as such, what constitutes 'vaild' technique?
Between Ju-jitsu and Aikido?
At the point where energies start getting redirected, as a rule of thumb.

takusan
05-04-2005, 10:40 PM
Mmmm,

Limited experience = limited possibilities

Greater experience = a couple more possibilities

Closed mind = whoop arse evileyes

Ketsan
05-05-2005, 04:10 AM
Mmmm,

Limited experience = limited possibilities

Greater experience = a couple more possibilities

Closed mind = whoop arse evileyes

Experience from a different angle is very important too.

takusan
05-05-2005, 05:23 AM
With out question

DustinAcuff
05-08-2005, 08:53 PM
ok, after having taken a couple hours and reading the WHOLE thread, hear are my questions:

1. can a speeding roundhouse beat a shihonage that is almost already completed (i'm daito and have no idea what your shihonage looks like)

2. best kick defence i ever learned- when any movement is initiated, it must have a steady equilibrium for a certian ammount of time in order to finish, any offsec causes immediate regroup- basically, pansy slap or whatever needed to move the head one inch. anyone ever tried this and not had it work?

3. you are not trying to control someone's knees in aikido, nor are you really trying to control their center per se - you are controling their spine either by compressing or elongating it. point: if your spine is offset you cannot even voluntairly spit, and a good nage/tori will NEVER allow you to get you spine in a straight line. once uke attaches to you or you to him, can he EVER control his own balance?

4. aikido is not a grappling art! can jujitsu or judo throw someone with 1 finger? nope. does aikido grab? nope, it shouldnt. why do you say aikido is a grappling art when it is a blending art?

5. forgive if i am wrong, but O'Sensei developed aikido off of daito ryu and some swordsmanship arts, and daito ryu is not jujitsu. jujitsu requires grabbing, push, pull, and leverage; daito does none of those things. if i am in need of correction, please use a legitimate book/website

6. BJJ in aikido = NO! i've trained both, and the diffrence is night and day. in BJJ you have to work hard to leverage someone into submission/position X. In aikido you guide them there, meaning no effort used. also, from my experiences BJJ takes a long time to submit, daito has a ground fighting sister art based on the same concepts that takes between 2-10 sec, on average, for neutralization. do you really have time to spend more than 15 sec on the ground in a real fight?

7. Muai Thai kicks are very destructive, i trained thai kickboxing for a few months before i came to aikido so i have experienced this first hand. if you want to know how deal with the legendary round house practice with a small (padded/childrens) baseball bat, and work up to full speed swings, the mechanics are identical. for low kicks, just swing low with the same type angle. or just try it with a Muai Thai person who is willing to moderate themselves so you don;t die.

8. how can uke stand up or move foward during nikkyo? i have never seen or heard of this happening where i train..could be a diffrence between daito and aikido.

a couple notes to the above: i am using aikido and daito interchangably since the techniques should be essentially the same, i have absolutely no idea what O Sensei taught or what his students taught after him. i realize i am probably a novice compared to most of the people i am asking questions of, feel free to correct me.

Alex, most of the stuff you are addressing is traditionally Shodan and up level techniques. keep training and you will get there, but trying to say "jujitsu would do this where aikido only does this" and then complaining about it is kind of pointless. aikido is a DO. jujitsu is a -JITSU. DO= primary goal is on self developement. JITSU = primary goal is on self preservation. if you want self defence emphasized more, check out daito ryu. to quote one sensei who's name i cant remember "in aikido when tori applies technique properly uke smiles, in daito he screams"

one other note: without energy (jab) it is difficult to do a technique, and extremely difficult to do certian ones, but the trick is to enveloping the energy and adding your own to it then preforming the techinque (it is harder than it sounds). if you want to see who is throwing who, give full energy and take irimi, kaiten, or tenchi nage, but try to resist the throw. hope you have good falls.

CNYMike
05-08-2005, 09:15 PM
ok, after having taken a couple hours and reading the WHOLE thread, hear are my questions:

1. can a speeding roundhouse beat a shihonage that is almost already completed (i'm daito and have no idea what your shihonage looks like)

Hi, Dustin,

I've never done Daito-Ryu, but I have book on it. :o The main problem I'm having with Alex' roundhouse kick defense is that the shiho-nage I'm acquainted with (and so is Alex) is you end up very close to uke, almost body to body, and that is too close to fully extend a roundhouse kick. (A knee might work at that range, and a lot Thai round kick might also work without having to move farther out.) So in order to get that kick off, you have to initiate it very early in the shih-nage, somehow preventing your arm from being twisted while making enough range to delvier the kick without yanking tori into you.

Sounds pretty tricky.

If you're farther along -- say to the point where your elbow is pointed out and Tori is about to send you over -- you'd better have a lot of flexibility in the upper body because as you move back, you stretch your arm out. Try this -- get your arm in shigo-nage position with your elbow up and your hand by your ear. Then have a parner pull your hand away with your elbow still pointed up. Not a fun feeling? This is the kind of "unwinding" I am always being yelled at to prevent when I do shiho-nage, because it can damage/rip a whole lot of muscle groups in uke's body; and it may be why Alex' sensei has his ukes tenkan into Shiho nage. But it is also waht Alex appears to be risking with his roundhouse defense, particulay if his timing is off and Tori has almost completeed it. From what he's said about his background, Alex might have enough flexibility he could pull it off. But the risks are there.

DustinAcuff
05-09-2005, 12:57 AM
great Michael, sounds like we are on the same shihonage! i know for a fact that from the initiation of the punch shihonage can be completely preformed in less that 2 sec, probably closer to one..not much reaction time. and one of the cool things about shihonage is that instead of moving with uke to the ground for the pin or the movement of center to throw you can instead tenkan and cut with uke's arm yonkyo style and pretty well shatter/rip up everything attached to the arm...think the figure-four throw only from the other direction - this should only come into play in training with one of those annoyingly flexible people. that is kind of a deliberate unwinding. as tori, as long as you are relaxed you will feel uke's weight shift onto you as he lifts his foot, at which point you can shake him, do an immediate throw, or leave him maimed. could a tori be kicked from shihonage, yes, possibly, so long as tori is too tight/unattentive to uke. would the price be worth it??? you kick to the solarplex at the cost of one arm for the rest of your life? let's all just hope that we never have uke's on the street who want to try it.

now that i am thinking about it..in shihonage you create the bridge by raising slightly above the elbow with one arm while lowering the wrist with the other...i'm not even sure that it is possible to lift your foot in that position....

from my (limited) experience with multiple attackers, you should never simply abandon a technique, drop uke instead, see if you can make a pile!

Ketsan
05-10-2005, 05:57 AM
Round house as they're entering in or as they take. Keeps the range open. Snap kick to the thigh also works well.

Nick Simpson
05-10-2005, 08:18 AM
Ok, for a laugh, heres a video clip of me executing kotegaeshi on someones ankle from a mae-geri attack. Its not really a 'realistic' technique when performed in this manner but it looks good and its a lot of fun (both to do and receive ukemi from). The uke is Steven mullen, who's also a member of aikiweb, I like him cos he makes me look good ;)

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/zanshin/Gallery.htm

Click: Sexy Aikido

Tim Gerrard
05-10-2005, 10:13 AM
Between Ju-jitsu and Aikido?
At the point where energies start getting redirected, as a rule of thumb.

But isn't that 'Ju'

CNYMike
05-10-2005, 11:21 AM
.... i know for a fact that from the initiation of the punch shihonage can be completely preformed in less that 2 sec, probably closer to one..

Yeah, they can be a bit lower in Aikido dojos, something that has to be taken into account.

CNYMike
05-10-2005, 11:27 AM
Round house as they're entering in or as they take. Keeps the range open. Snap kick to the thigh also works well.

So for this to work, you have to fire off the kick before the shiho-nage as even started, preempting it; wait to long, and you're in too close and your arm is being cranked. So the key to success is to hold tori off.

As I suspected. And even then, applying this defense assumes (a) you know in advance it's shiho-nage; and (b) tori is so committed to doing it he doesn't abort when he sees your foot leaving the ground.

This works best if your strategy is to hold tori off with kicks and punches and not let him or her close, and it sounds like it is. But if an Aikido person can get in as close as they want, you'll have some technical problems.

Pauliina Lievonen
05-10-2005, 12:56 PM
(b) tori is so committed to doing it he doesn't abort when he sees your foot leaving the ground.
If there is contact, its not even necessary to see the foot leave the ground, it can be felt. :)

kvaak
Pauliina

Ketsan
05-10-2005, 02:55 PM
So for this to work, you have to fire off the kick before the shiho-nage as even started, preempting it; wait to long, and you're in too close and your arm is being cranked. So the key to success is to hold tori off.

Pretty much, if they're fast the foot lands as they begin to crank, if they're slow they just get booted.


As I suspected. And even then, applying this defense assumes (a) you know in advance it's shiho-nage; and (b) tori is so committed to doing it he doesn't abort when he sees your foot leaving the ground.

I'm not so sure that you need to know. If you do say TKD, and your hand gets grabbed you'll probably naturally kick.


This works best if your strategy is to hold tori off with kicks and punches and not let him or her close, and it sounds like it is. But if an Aikido person can get in as close as they want, you'll have some technical problems.

I prefer getting close in, really close in, so that I can use knees and elbows. The problem I find with that though is that Aikidoka try and stay at sword range and it ends up in a stalemate, assuming it's on a mat. Point blank range in a bar would probably be another matter, unless they're going to turn around mid fight and say "Excuse me mate, would you mind moving back a bit because I need to tenkan out of the way of this blokes elbow and I haven't got the room."


Aikido is very much a medium range martial art, you need a fair bit of room to do most of the techniques. Ok so yes more advanced Aikidoka can stand on the spot and use their hips to a certain extent but that doesn't entirely cut out the need to move.

DustinAcuff
05-10-2005, 04:50 PM
Alex

if i have your arm, if you kick me you are going to get the hard version of the crank to your shoulder, not smart but could happen.

if your hand gets grabbed, then that means you committed energy from a punch or grab thus commiting your energy/intent on grabbing me. unless you had already initiated the kick you wont get one off, and you are assuming i enter outside so you can kick. if i went inside i'm already to your center in control, and should you try to kick, depending on what point i'm at in the technique, your size, the angle of the kick, the particular point of interception, ect. i may simply shift to ikkyo, step under and preform reverse sankyo, throw on a rokkyo in which case kicking me in the back with that roundhouse will be disasterous, or i might simply cut down through you center and dump you. i'm not just going to arbitrairly reach over, grab your wrist and overpower you into shihonage. if you are kicking, on the other hand, i'm just going to intercept your leg, create offest, and cut to your calf (a variation of this technique will snap most of the ligaments in the knee and i've heard it should create a nice little spiral fracture down the tibia and femur).

as to knees and elbows: i dont know about you, but an elbow strike looks alot like ikkyo to me, you have aready done most of my work for me. granted, you have to be very quick and relaxed to pull it off, but it can and has been done. knees pose a bit of a problem, but working close you will likely go for a clench and i could feel the shift in balance. the second your foot leaves the ground, you are no longer properly balanced and can be quite easily cut down.

at best this discussion is a stalemate. number one, you should never be attacked by an experienced aikidoka, maybe more experienced than you, but never someone with like 10+ years unless you ahve done something disasterous, in which case you need to go buy a gun. number two, while "what if"s are good, this one is just plain realistic. if you cant understand why then for some reason or another you are failing to grasp one of the most basic fundamentals of aikido. if you really think you can pop an aiki with a roundhouse, either try your sensei, or just in case you just have bad teaching, find the nearest daito ryu school, take a fieldtrip, explain your problem, and try it. your kick may land, but i promise you you will never try to do it again. number three, why are you learning aikido if you dont belive it works? are you just lookign for a better way to hurt people? are you the type of person who goes out and seeks confrentation? if not then why are you challenging everything that anyone says? this "what if" game just doesnt cut it. i cannot speak for anyone else out there, but when i enter a confrentation, i enter with the intent to do whatever is required to keep myself safe. i hold no illusions about walking out with no brusies, no broken bones, nor do i really think about if i am going to die. but i do go in with intent to preserve my life at any cost, including if that means killing you to live to fight another day, or simply running as fast and far as i can. dealing with someone on the street in a "what if" scenario will never definitively prove anything. everyone knows the game is a little diffrent against a trained fighter. but given the choice i'd rather have 4 trained fighters attack me over one mother who thinks i'm going to kill her child. that is reality.

Ketsan
05-10-2005, 08:20 PM
Alex

if i have your arm, if you kick me you are going to get the hard version of the crank to your shoulder, not smart but could happen.


Last person I seriously kicked collapsed pretty much instantly from a dead leg and I was being nice. Like I said earlier shi-ho nage is impossible with a broken knee or ankle. A lot of people seriously underestimate just how damaging and disabiling a kick can be especially if landed on the right spot. I mean a randomly landed kick hurts like hell and slows you down, a properly targeted kick drops you, plain and simple.


if your hand gets grabbed, then that means you committed energy from a punch or grab thus commiting your energy/intent on grabbing me.
If I throw a big Aiki punch yes, but who would willfully unbalance themselves in a fight? 1st thing I was taught was how to take up a proper fighting stance so that when I attacked or retreated I was always on balance. If you're getting energy it's the energy of my arm, the rest of my body is in a nice strong stance with all the weight of my body acting through my center and this is common sence to most people.

unless you had already initiated the kick you wont get one off

Well who throws just one attack? Second thing I was taught, don't give him a chance to come back. A single technique by itself is easy to deal with and even if it's successful it's not going to end the fight. So throwing combinations is par for the course.


i dont know about you, but an elbow strike looks alot like ikkyo to me, you have aready done most of my work for me.knees pose a bit of a problem, but working close you will likely go for a clench and i could feel the shift in balance. the second your foot leaves the ground, you are no longer properly balanced and can be quite easily cut down.

Yup it does, well some do. Chopping elbow, back elbow or an upper cut style elbow don't. Thing is at that kind of range you see it coming just after it's hit you plus the body angles and range are all wrong for ikkyo. You're thinking single technique to single technique. Punches or kicks or knees or elbows. The reality of the situation is punches and kicks and knees and elbows all mixed up together in different combinations and possibly, throws as well. To isolate out one single technique to throw someone with is going to be very difficult, which is probably why Aikido trys to keep a good distance away and force the attacker to cross that distance in one massive unbalancing attack.



number three, why are you learning aikido if you dont belive it works? are you just lookign for a better way to hurt people? are you the type of person who goes out and seeks confrentation? if not then why are you challenging everything that anyone says? this "what if" game just doesnt cut it. i cannot speak for anyone else out there, but when i enter a confrentation, i enter with the intent to do whatever is required to keep myself safe. i hold no illusions about walking out with no brusies, no broken bones, nor do i really think about if i am going to die. but i do go in with intent to preserve my life at any cost, including if that means killing you to live to fight another day, or simply running as fast and far as i can. dealing with someone on the street in a "what if" scenario will never definitively prove anything. everyone knows the game is a little diffrent against a trained fighter. but given the choice i'd rather have 4 trained fighters attack me over one mother who thinks i'm going to kill her child. that is reality.

I do Aikido because the beauty of ukemi Aiki style is that it teaches zanshin better than most arts and yes partly because I'm looking for a better way to hurt people. I figure if you end up in a situation where they're going to hurt you and you need to hurt them, using the best way of hurting them is a wise idea. I'm not big on running away because I don't like the idea of finding out that they're faster than me when I get kicked to the ground and stomped on. The whole "don't turn your back on your enemy...unless you're running away" doesn't cut it with me. As to confrontation. If someone seeks trouble with me I look on it as unfortunate. I usually get laughed at when people find out I do martial arts, I wont fight for myself unless I need to because to be honest, I'm too laid back.
I'm pointing out, not asking what if? The best way to understand an art, in my opinion, is to pull it apart and see what's going on and why, seeing what it can do and what it can't. In my opinion learning where the gaps are is half of the art. How can you claim to know Aikido without knowing where the gaps are?
"Know yourself and know your enemy...". If you know the gaps you (hopefully) will avoid putting yourself in a situation where your opponent can exploit them. "First make yourself invincible, then seek battle". I like to keep things full and frank, martial arts is life and death so openess and honesty is very important. I've seen students that have come back from Aikido courses with a new "uncounterable" technique taught by brilliant instructors and then dumped them on their ass with another art and they look at you as if you've done the impossible. Then it's all "Well we wont be fighting experienced martial artists" or "You can't do that because it's not Aikido" and that is a sloppy state of mind because if you end up in a confrontation you automatically underestimate your opponent. You find out if he's a martial artist during the fight, not before it. Not everyone out there is untrainned and not all untrainned people are crap at fighting and it goes without saying that assuming that all martial artists are nice people that don't get into fights is a massive sweeping generalisation and the product of a closed and confused mind not open to the possiblites of unrestricted combat.
Mushin, no mind, non-judgemental, not bound and clouded by preconceptions or misconceptions. In short a martial mind.
You need to approach everything in martial arts as if you were your opponent and you have loose your ego over how good you are and be utterly ruthless. Sometimes Aikidoka stink of Aikido and need to get back to the original mindset they had before they started training. You're just a person, in a fight who happens to know Aikido, it's one way of doing things, one way of looking at the world but it's not the only way and it's probably not your oppoents way. Study his ways get to know them so that you know how to beat him and so that you can learn his approach and all the useful things he has to teach.

People complain that this debate goes on ad infinitum, Good, we're all still thinking about it instead of shutting ourselves off in our dojo's and convincing ourselves that we know the answer.

God look at me rambling on like I'm 70 or something. :D I appologise, but do you see what I'm getting at?

DustinAcuff
05-10-2005, 11:02 PM
I understand at what you are getting at, but I disagree with some points.

I am familiar with the Thai Kickboxing roundhouse and have experienced first hand the shutdown. I agree, the kick is absolutely devastating. I also agree that unless you have practiced pretty extensively on your knees, once you get hit with one you are screwed.

I realize that no one attacks only once, not even the brawler, but at some point they will either slow down or leave an opening where they can be taken, this is why we make entrance, get off the line, and deflect.

On punches, even a well-trained, well-balanced fighter can be offbalanced, in O Sensei's words "In Aikido you pull in the same direction your attcker is pulling." This means that if you throw a punch, even if you are well balanced, I SHOULD add my energy to yours in the same direction you were already going....kind of like pushing someone on a swing. This can be done on ANY extention given, except probably knees. Can I do it? Not too often. Can you? I dont know. Have I seen it done? Yep.

Knees/Elbows: Very difficult because of the short range of motion and high speed. But it can be done. Your only real course to knees is to try to get off the line through entrance. But as to being TOO close to work, that is just plain wrong. Kuzushi works BEST in very short/zero distance, just ask a Judoka. Think of Ikkyo or any number of our techniques. They work better close. It is very hard to do Irimi or Tenchi Nage without your center being right next to theirs. Each time you attack is a chance to hit me, but teach time is also a chance for me to intercept.

Why do you belive that someone will keep coming after 1 technique? These techniques were designed to maim and kill, and when properly executed still are easily capable of it, Ikkyo is an arm break, nikyo is a wrist break, gokkyo is a wrist/elbow break, shihonage can be a sholder break, rokkyo is like the swiss army knife of breaks, they are pretty much all there. Same concept as a leg kick, it only takes one to mess you up. Just think about your techniques from a little more jujitsu point of view and you will easily see what I mean.

These techniques are 800-1200 years old, developed by and for samurai. The bottom line is that they do work, but you are training Aikido, the world's hardest martial art to learn! These skills will take a long time to learn, to develope, and will quite literally take your entire life to maintain. To say that Aikido might not be the martail art of choice for someone who only has a few months to learn to handle a trained fighter is one thing, but to say that Aikido is incapable of handling that same fighter is just wrong.

But once again I submit to you, go get your sensei and try some of this stuff, or go to someone above him if you are not satisfied. If you get all the way through the ranks and are still unhappy with the results, then I will even quit training and go back to BJJ and Muai Thai.

CNYMike
05-11-2005, 12:48 AM
Pretty much, if they're fast the foot lands as they begin to crank, if they're slow they just get booted.



Which means the 1-2 second shiho-nage Dustin mentioned would be a problem.


I'm not so sure that you need to know. If you do say TKD, and your hand gets grabbed you'll probably naturally kick.


I did Shotokan and TKD about 15 years ago, and I don't remember anything like that. In Kali and Wing Chun, when someone goes to trap or grab your hand, you're too close for a Karate/TKD style kick and (in the case of Wing Chun) you'd be getting nailed before you could fire it off anyway.


I prefer getting close in, really close in, so that I can use knees and elbows. The problem I find with that though is that Aikidoka try and stay at sword range and it ends up in a stalemate, assuming it's on a mat. Point blank range in a bar would probably be another matter, unless they're going to turn around mid fight and say "Excuse me mate, would you mind moving back a bit because I need to tenkan out of the way of this blokes elbow and I haven't got the room."


Aikido is very much a medium range martial art, you need a fair bit of room to do most of the techniques. Ok so yes more advanced Aikidoka can stand on the spot and use their hips to a certain extent but that doesn't entirely cut out the need to move.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on Aikido's range. Aikido techniques may start at "sword range" or the inside edge of kicboxking range, but once things get rolling, you spend at least part of the technique very close to the other person, almost body-to-body, and even then, the difference is in inches. Even when your arms are fully extended, your body orientation should be such that you are very close to the other person. I haven't done an empty-hand technique that violates that rule; you admitted a while back that Shiho-nage puts you very close to your partners, so it is probably true in your dojo, too.

So I don't see how you can argue Aikido DOESN'T get close. It does a good deal of the time. So any assumptoins you've made that it doesn't would appear to be incorrect.

CNYMike
05-11-2005, 01:10 AM
.... If I throw a big Aiki punch yes, but who would willfully unbalance themselves in a fight? .....

I saw some amateru boxing once, a tournament held by the Bangor, ME police department. One of the amateur fighters was a big guy who through these big haymakers. Looked more like a "big Aiki punch" than anything from boxing.

Willfully? No. Carelessly? Maybe.


.... Well who throws just one attack? ....

Aikido's goal appears to be to end a confrontation as early as possible. That is why there's so many responses to grabs -- you're assuming a grab and strike combo and the ideal is to nip it in the bud.


.... Aikido trys to keep a good distance away and force the attacker to cross that distance in one massive unbalancing attack.


See above about grab-and-strike. IOW, how far away is uke when you're praciticng off shoulder grabs?


..... I do Aikido because the beauty of ukemi Aiki style is that it teaches zanshin better than most arts and yes partly because I'm looking for a better way to hurt people .....

Well, that's something. But remember, one of the things you said where one of the things you said was you were totally disillusioned with Aikido. If you reach the point where even ukemi waza and zanshin hold no appeal for you -- quit. Don't stay there another second. I mean it.


.... How can you claim to know Aikido without knowing where the gaps are? ....

By pracitcing it. A lot.

Randathamane
05-17-2005, 10:01 AM
Last person I seriously kicked collapsed pretty much instantly from a dead leg and I was being nice. Like I said earlier shi-ho nage is impossible with a broken knee or ankle. A lot of people seriously underestimate just how damaging and disabiling a kick can be especially if landed on the right spot. I mean a randomly landed kick hurts like hell and slows you down, a properly targeted kick drops you, plain and simple.

Totaly agree with you there.....

A few friends of mine in open sparing ( which one should really not do) in handsworth grabs me and trys the entry for shihonage only to find me gently placing my knee against on of his kidneys. At full blast- the kidney would need removing from the body by a surgeon.

Tori attempts shihonage and and as he turns and cuts out- the very beginning- when you draw out to take balance- gets his kidney/ spine/ knee/ ankle/ ribcage destroyed (pick your target and delete appropriately).

Tori attempts shihonage and is downed.
The end- its a mini adventure.

The only way out is to try and cause some pain before i can do this. it is rare but some of the faster mob can do it. Shihonage then i would say ( and this is only me- i confess to no great knowledge, only an open mind so ignore me if you wish) is a brave attempt and good for the right situation, but not exactly a practical solution. Besides there are far better things aikido can do with the fist.....

:ai: :ki: :do:

CNYMike
05-17-2005, 10:31 AM
..... Tori attempts shihonage and and as he turns and cuts out- the very beginning .....

Those are the key words -- "the very beginning." This is the point I have been trying to make all along -- this counter works well just as the techique is starting. If you are slow or your timing is off, it won't.

Nick Simpson
05-17-2005, 11:38 AM
One of the practical versions of shihonage I know of/practise, removes the majority of the technique and cuts down drastically on the time it takes to control/hurt the opponent. As a combination of sankyo/shihonage/atemi, the attackers own elbow strikes the attacker in his side/stomach just before his fingers are broken and his wrist is ripped out. Its very very fiendish and although im not vouching for my ability to put this technique on an extremely well trained intelligent fighter who is trying to clean my clock, I would really enjoy seeing someone try to counter this or strike the tori who is applying it...

Ketsan
05-17-2005, 04:20 PM
Those are the key words -- "the very beginning." This is the point I have been trying to make all along -- this counter works well just as the techique is starting. If you are slow or your timing is off, it won't.

Any kind of counter that involves striking starts as soon, if not before, the technique starts because you're already throwing punches or kicks as he starts his technique.

CNYMike
05-17-2005, 11:37 PM
Any kind of counter that involves striking starts as soon, if not before, the technique starts because you're already throwing punches or kicks as he starts his technique.

If we postulate a tori who's good enough to successfully initiate a technique faced with a flurry of kicks and punches, then guess what? You've just proved yourself wrong (again). Because to prove an Aikidoka can't handle that situation, you have to assume someone can handle it well enough to start a technique against a situation, a combination attack, he hasn't trained for.

How very Aiki of you. :D

Ian Upstone
05-18-2005, 06:09 AM
The 'defences against aikido' are only going to work (or be rationally discussed) when someone with a lack of experience/understanding grabs someone's wrist or whatever and proceeds to 'do' a technique on them.

With this, you essentally have a technique that is bound to fail, and the 'uke' can then resist/reverse/merely thump the 'attacker', as discussed here, and no doubt experimented with in the dojo.

In this case, we can discuss and explore potential (or actual!) holes in our technique, interesting reversals, and ways to improve what we are practising.

However, when hypothetically applying a technique in The Real World (TM) two things to consider:

1: - A technique is applied where it presents itself. Uke (or tori!) have provided an opening in some way, by uke closing distance, tori moving off line, atemi, irimi, etc.

2: - A technique is applied as part of ingrained movement - tori/nage themselves do not consciously think "I will do X technique" - they just do it. As a result, the person on the receiving end (yes, hypothetically even aikido people) cannot possibly recognise, evaluate and employ some sort of resistance in the time it takes for the technique to happen.

Just these two factors make the chances of 'defending against aikido' per se rather slim. When a technique is done correctly by someone who knows what they are doing there is no way out IMO.

Discussing the shortfalls of shihonage for example, just means work is needed on it. Stating it does not work merely because you can shut down something you know is coming - from someone who would rather comprimise their technique than cause injury - is rather short-sighted in my book.

CNYMike
05-18-2005, 10:54 AM
..... when hypothetically applying a technique in The Real World (TM) two things to consider:

1: - A technique is applied where it presents itself. Uke (or tori!) have provided an opening in some way, by uke closing distance, tori moving off line, atemi, irimi, etc.


This jives with the experience I had in Tai Chi, when I applied nikkyo to my partner during pushing hands. He actually put out hands into a position I could use as part of an attempt to trap me, and I used it. I admit, not the real world, but not an Aikido dojo with a "good uke" either, and an example of how you take a position that presents itself.


..... Discussing the shortfalls of shihonage for example, just means work is needed on it ....

Or, having come up with a counter, you can turn the problem around and ask yourself, Ok, how do I sector off that counter from happening?


Stating it does not work merely because you can shut down something you know is coming - from someone who would rather comprimise their technique than cause injury - is rather short-sighted in my book.

And if the counter depends on getting a kick in before the technique has even started, you have to be pretty certain it's going to be it. Otherwise, tori could change his mind right then.

Dave603
05-19-2005, 09:03 AM
I didn't read all of the replies to this thread, so maybe someone has already mentioned this, but there is a very simple way to stop someone trying to use aikido on you... just clap twice. Stops 'em in their tracks every time. :D

Matt Molloy
05-19-2005, 04:42 PM
I didn't read all of the replies to this thread, so maybe someone has already mentioned this, but there is a very simple way to stop someone trying to use aikido on you... just clap twice. Stops 'em in their tracks every time. :D


Or just make sure, whatever else you do, that you don't grab their wrist.

:D

Cheers,

Matt.

feck
05-19-2005, 08:26 PM
Lets back up this thread a little and try to view the initial question with a little more clarity. What if the attacker was trained in aikido
( to whatever level ) and for what ever reason he was attacking you.

Keashi waza is not about just regaining balance after experiancing shoddy technique or finding an opening, its also about just not letting there technique occur.

By becoming so sensitive as to what is occuring during an attack, you parry, move offline, or apply counter technique. KW occurs in situaitions when you are the uke and techniuqe is being applied, by changing postion and following your own redirected energy, you can change angles and apply counter. The counter applied depends on nothing but the opening given to you and your own choice of technique, after changing your body position and finding a positive angle on the situation.

PeterR
05-19-2005, 11:22 PM
Keashi waza is not about just regaining balance after experiancing shoddy technique or finding an opening, its also about just not letting there technique occur
I don't think either of these define Kaeshiwaza.

feck
05-23-2005, 11:18 AM
Thanks for putting me straight Peter, but could you please put me right on my viewpoint on Kaeshi-Waza.

As a relatively new player in Aikido, I sometimes make assumptions that are wrong, and probably always will, but am always willing to accept constructive critisicm, though just saying your wrong, never corrects a situation.

thanks

darren

Stefan Stenudd
05-23-2005, 12:15 PM
Thanks for putting me straight Peter, but could you please put me right on my viewpoint on Kaeshi-Waza.
I usually tell my students that a correctly done aikido technique cannot be countered, so kaeshiwaza is a way to discover and repair weaknesses in one's aikido techniques.
On the other hand, it's not easy to accomplish a correctly done aikido technique...

I seem to recall reading and hearing that initially, Osensei only taught kaeshiwaza to the instructors - to give them a trump of sorts over their students. Since then, though, kaeshiwaza has become basics for all practitioners, so obviously the intention has changed.

PeterR
05-23-2005, 08:51 PM
True I should have given my definition but that has already been done. I was also just pointing out that your definitions were outside normally accepted parameters - you were reaching.

Kaeshiwaza are just reversals. For a kaeshiwaza to occur your opponent must be attempting a technique of their own. Recovering balance, leaving no openings - these are other concepts.

Nick Simpson
05-24-2005, 06:36 AM
Heres something i've often thought about:

Can there ever be a correct aikido technique if uke can take ukemi from it? As such is the technique not then flawed in some way?

What do you think guys?

Dazzler
05-24-2005, 08:52 AM
Heres something i've often thought about:

Can there ever be a correct aikido technique if uke can take ukemi from it? As such is the technique not then flawed in some way?

What do you think guys?

I think we practice not for the techniques...but for what we can learn from them.

Stefan Stenudd
05-24-2005, 08:56 AM
Can there ever be a correct aikido technique if uke can take ukemi from it? As such is the technique not then flawed in some way?
Interesting "koan".
Well, for aikido the answer is easy: the way of aiki, done in a dojo for the benefit of all participants, should be done so that ukemi is both possible and pleasant. A peaceful solution to the problem.

For self defense applications outside of the dojo, other answers might apply.

DustinAcuff
05-24-2005, 04:22 PM
Ukemi is just falling and taking less than 100% impact. once you let uke go, you no longer have any control over him, so in a throw then yes, uke always has the option (maybe not ability) to do ukemi. but, the degree really depends on how skilled uke and nage are. if uke is thrown up 10 ft in the air (around 3m) then can he recover? maybe, doubtful. even if he falls right, there is a huge diffrence between a mat and concrete. So when you ask the question "can you ukemi from a proper technique" the answer is yes. the better questions are : "does uke have good enough ukemi" "what surface is uke landing on" "what did I throw uke at" "If uke has ukemi, will it make a diffrence"

if you throw uke into a full force 6ft off the ground kaiten nage into a brick wall uke probably wont get up for a while, if he lives through it. If you throw him into a pond, the result could be a little diffrent.

Ketsan
05-25-2005, 03:14 AM
if you throw uke into a full force 6ft off the ground kaiten nage into a brick wall uke probably wont get up for a while, if he lives through it. If you throw him into a pond, the result could be a little diffrent.

My experience tends to show me that they need at least a basic knowlege of Aikido to get that far. Usually if uke doesn't step back they go face first through the floor as you cut down, there is no ukemi as such. It's only if uke steps back that you get as far as changing hands, controling the neck and stepping through to produce the "throw" as such.

DustinAcuff
05-25-2005, 12:19 PM
That is pretty much what I was trying to say. I've never had an uke "step back" so I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do know that I've never changed hands or needed a neck reinforcement to produce the technique or needed uke's assistance. Out of curioscity how are you preforming it? It is always useful to know more variations.

Randathamane
05-26-2005, 08:57 AM
Right..... How to explain....... give me a moment.......

Uchikitennage From aihanmi katatedori
forward foot Irimi at an angle to uke's body to stretch them out (in the direction of the hand that has you).

raise your had up to Jodan- as if you were going to cut shomen.
Tenkan under the arm and cut down in a big circle (shomen) and cut back

change hands so that you have Uke by the neck and the hand they grabbed you with is held above their head. their other hand will be pushed against the floor trying to keep themselves upright.
Step and throw.

As Alex points out, if Uke does not step back at the cut, thy cannot put their other arm forward and hit the floor (some of the bigger lot just don't move[unless we use the cheap shot of Knee to the ribs]) :rolleyes: ).

:ai: :ki: :do:

Dazzler
05-26-2005, 09:32 AM
That is pretty much what I was trying to say. I've never had an uke "step back" so I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do know that I've never changed hands or needed a neck reinforcement to produce the technique or needed uke's assistance. Out of curioscity how are you preforming it? It is always useful to know more variations.

In the interest of variety....and not for a second suggesting that this is either good or any use to anyone other than the curious...since it is extracted from our syllabus for 5th kyu and part of a development process that works for us...but may be totally irrelevant to those on a different route up the aikido mountain. At 5th kyu this is also a pretty simplistic version.

GYAKU HAMNI KATATE DORI, UCHI KAITEN NAGE

We always talk about uchi kaiten nage as preparation for sankkyo. The demands placed upon Tori also mean it is a great vehicle for practice of Haysabachi (wrist turning, Happo geri (8 directional foot movement), posture breaking, kokyoho-rokyu-ho (breathing & co-ordination) , centering and use of spiralling movement.

All of these benefits are explored as our syllabus develops, perhaps at this 5th kyu level it is best to focus on kamae -- be offline, shisei -- good posture and maai -- correct distance.

The other benefits can be looked at further in the syllabus -- yet another advantage of viewing the moves as tool and not fixed techniques. In this case the tool can be selectively used to develop a subset of its potential bases.

So for 5th kyu, start in standard position, wrist held and standing slightly off line. Using omote first, assume toris right wrist is held, extend this arm to ukes 3rd point and simultaneously strike to tori's face. This move takes ukes arm out to the side to the limit of its natural extension. At the same time mirror the move of the right arm with the right leg opening the hip as you do so.

Following the strike Tori is about to step under this arm. So when it is extended it can be raised high. Obviously this makes room for a taller person to step under. From an aikido point of view it makes it possible to maintain good shisei.

The next move is to step forward with the left leg under Toris exended arm. Once again Happo Geri footwork is employed. Tori is effectively stepping away from uke at a right angle. Tori then pivots to face uke. I have seen a backfist delivered at this point with the held hand which may not be necessary with this exercise as it can disturb uke and affect the fluidity but it does highlight the correct angle and on occasions can help. At this point Toris right leg is nearest uke and Toris right arm is extended along Toris centre line.

From this position Tori drops his right arm, also bending at the knees which breaks ukes posture. As ukes arm reaches waist height tori steps back with his right foot turning away from uke which sweps uke down then draws him on to Tori.

Ukes head will come into contact with Toris hip. Tori faces away from uke with feet also turned away to protect the groin. Toris free left hand can press down on ukes head while the right uses haysabachi to roll around ukes wrist and Tori is now holding uke. A reversal of roles.

At this point Toris left hand is pushing down on ukes head while the right hand levers ukes arm in a vertical position.

To complete the move Tori turns back to uke pushing down on the head and against the extended arm. At 5th kyu uke is allowed to roll away. At a higher level Tori will step back with the projection to increase the power of the throw.

Fortunately ura is very similar to omote. Where omote starts with an extension of the arm and an immediate atemi plus an outbreath for seniors to consider Ura differs in that Tori turns in exactly the same manner as ura Tai no henka from gyaku hamni combining this with an in breath.

Having completed the turn, effectively simulating evasive receiving motion Tori turns back and starts with omote version. In essence they have practiced tenkan -- irimi.
.

Ketsan
05-27-2005, 03:59 AM
That is pretty much what I was trying to say. I've never had an uke "step back" so I am not sure what you are talking about, but I do know that I've never changed hands or needed a neck reinforcement to produce the technique or needed uke's assistance. Out of curioscity how are you preforming it? It is always useful to know more variations.

Pretty much as Rich explained it, except we try and get some atemi in somewhere, either to the face as were entering in gakyuhamni or an elbow in the solar plexis on the turn before the main cut.

Nick Simpson
05-27-2005, 05:35 AM
Dont forget the strike to the back of the head/neck as you cut them down and then the knee in the face as you throw/step through :)

Sensei Hemmings grabbed me once on a course to illustrate reflexes/gaurd, he put in about 6 atemi before he threw me, scary stuff that.

Ketsan
05-27-2005, 08:17 AM
Dont forget the strike to the back of the head/neck as you cut them down and then the knee in the face as you throw/step through :)

Sensei Hemmings grabbed me once on a course to illustrate reflexes/gaurd, he put in about 6 atemi before he threw me, scary stuff that.

Ah yes knee in the face, the old favorites are the best. :D

DustinAcuff
05-28-2005, 02:40 PM
LOL. No wonder I was confuzed. I have never done kaiten nage from anything but punches. Havent had an uke put an arm down to save himself either....seems like a bad idea to me.

From a standard punch you can do kaiten nage pretty easily one handed, as long as your attacker has foward momentum or you make a very deep entrance. Just irimi, make contact with the attackers arm, cut in a circle (wheel style), during the cut make the 180 degree hip switch, at any point during the last 120 degrees of the cut (arm perpendicular to the floor to pointing just infront of you ) stop the cut and move center foward. We use the neck reinforcement during practice if we are using low energy, but when your uke is a bit overzealous it just seems not to happen.

The explination does not really do the technique justice, but it makes a very smooth, rapid throw as long as you keep the energy/uke going the same direction without interruption. A word of warning, the higher you release the more air uke gets.