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malsmith
04-05-2005, 02:59 PM
i grew up in a christian home and go to a christian high school... i do not however consider myself to be/practice any religion.

but i was just thinking that ki is kind of a complicated subject and i was also thinking that most christians would get upset with people if they said that ki was real. are there any christians out there that could share their veiws???

if someone beleives in ki, then is it also assumed that they beleive in reincarnation? in my mind that makes sense. i mean if you have ki when youre alive then what happens to it when you die??

kironin
04-05-2005, 04:29 PM
if someone beleives in ki, then is it also assumed that they beleive in reincarnation? in my mind that makes sense. i mean if you have ki when youre alive then what happens to it when you die??

traditional definitions of ki include a belief that it exists in everything both in animate and inanimate objects.

ki is not equivalent to "life force" or "vital energy" etc.

a rock has ki.

tedehara
04-05-2005, 04:43 PM
i grew up in a christian home and go to a christian high school... i do not however consider myself to be/practice any religion.

but i was just thinking that ki is kind of a complicated subject and i was also thinking that most christians would get upset with people if they said that ki was real. are there any christians out there that could share their veiws???

if someone beleives in ki, then is it also assumed that they beleive in reincarnation? in my mind that makes sense. i mean if you have ki when youre alive then what happens to it when you die??The concepts of ki and reincarnation are independent of each other. If a person believes in ki, it does not mean they also believe in reincarnation or vice versa.

I do know of people who practice ki development and are Christians. They believe that their ki practice helps their Christianity. Of course that probably depends more on what style of "Christianity" and "Aikido" you practice.

ChristianBoddum
04-05-2005, 04:56 PM
I don´t associate Ki with anything spiritual - yet,
the revelations O´sensei had of Aiki as a divine martial path is fascinating,
as for me I keep my focus on the cross , as I believe all things will be revealed by Christ.

malsmith
04-05-2005, 05:08 PM
O' Sensei's "divine martial path" is really fascinating, i just dont think i fully understand it :( :confused:

Aardvark
04-05-2005, 08:47 PM
There are many paths up Mount Fuji, but only one summit.

It can be difficult to tell a person about the other routes, particularly if they have found the only track. But if the paths all end in the same place, perhaps we can learn from all of them?

Besides, if ki is "real", it must have been a part of creation, no?

But then again, most of my family would probably disagree with that, so I guess I'll either meet them somewhere along the way, or burn for a very long time...

Chris Li
04-05-2005, 08:52 PM
There are many paths up Mount Fuji, but only one summit.

It can be difficult to tell a person about the other routes, particularly if they have found the only track. But if the paths all end in the same place, perhaps we can learn from all of them?

Assuming of course, that they all end in the same place, which is where a lot of problems arise.

Besides, if ki is "real", it must have been a part of creation, no?

So is AIDS...

Best,

Chris

Mark Balogh
04-06-2005, 07:35 AM
Apparently the thing that martial artists have in common with monks etc is their continued ki/chi development and therefore high levels of the good stuff. This is apparently why spirtual experiences happen to many martial artists. :)

Apparently. ;)

Jake Karlins
04-06-2005, 09:15 AM
"ki is not equivalent to "life force" or "vital energy" etc.

a rock has ki."

I've read descriptions of chi (Chinese for ki) that talk about the chi of objects. If you read about Feng Shui they talk about this. Who'd've guessed that you'd read about decorating in an Aikido forum? :D
....
I'm confusing myself trying to elaborate on this. Could be I'm WAY off (esp. as far as animate objects are concerned). Kironin- if you don't mind, could you elaborate? If ki is not vital energy, what is it (what kind of energy or thing)?

Personally, I think it's really key ;) to base talk about ki on actual experience. I don't know about reincarnation, but I do know that I feel great after most Aikido classes, and that I feel interesting things when I work with really good Aikidoka- that's ki (at least in part). You can believe in ki, but then what's that based on? Like people have said ki can be part of a spiritual view, but it doesn't have to be. Right now, it seems like ki must be part of the big picture, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions- I'm not sure what part. At the same time, ki is very natural/normal. I tell this to skeptical friends sometimes. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, famous Chinese martial artist, writes about laughter as expelling energy- this makes sense, right? Think about how it feels to hold yourself back from laughing, that rush of energy in your torso. I guess my long-winded point is that ki/chi/whatever is a natural everyday thing, whether it fits into a spiritual/religious framework or not.

Greg Jennings
04-06-2005, 09:37 AM
You know, I have to go fishing about once a year to remember why I, in general, hate it so much. Ditto reading threads on ki. I guess I'm good for another year.

Best,

Dazzler
04-06-2005, 10:03 AM
You know, I have to go fishing about once a year to remember why I, in general, hate it so much. Ditto reading threads on ki. I guess I'm good for another year.

Best,

Presumably that fishing trip wont be improved by having a priest or mullah with you?

Its an open forum so carry on guys....I'm off for a beer with Greg to discuss Bow locks. ;)

D

Kevin Leavitt
04-06-2005, 02:45 PM
I have been wondering since yesterday what KI has to say about religion?

thisisnotreal
04-06-2005, 11:01 PM
religion is the pursuit of: __
ki is the pursuit of: ___

kironin
04-07-2005, 02:03 AM
to base talk about ki on actual experience.


no, I don't care to elaborate. ;)

actually kinesthetic experience is all that really matters.

compared to that talk based on actual experience is not even worth much, attempts to talk about Ki become metaphysical discussions about the nature of reality from the view of fundamentally nonverbal experiences.
:crazy:

Joe Bowen
04-07-2005, 03:17 AM
Religion is the pursuit of the Divine
Ki is the pursuit of the mundane

Jake Karlins
04-07-2005, 10:09 AM
I don't know, I don't want to sound ornery, but, ah... This is obviously a thread about ki, so if you're not interested in talking about ki, there are other threads... And if ki is a "fundamentally nonverbal experience," isn't everything? Words describe what we experience- experience is there without words, right? Whether I think "I am typing right now" as I type, or not, I'm still doing the same thing. everything is nonverbal at one level, but why we're "here"/posting is to be verbal. just talking about ikkyo won't in itself make your ikkyo better, but it might give you some insight that'll improve your training. I think this applies to ki, too. But that's just me, maybe for lots of others, talking about ki doesn't serve any purpose.
I think all that ki/energy stuff is really cool and interesting, and is probably the main reason I got into martial arts in the first place. There are lots of other reasons I've continued, but it remains fascinating to me.
Here's the thing- the point I was trying to make, and maybe this didn't come out clearly, is that talk about energy DOESN'T have to be "metaphysical", or religious, etc. Ki can often seem magical when a really good martial artist or healer uses it well, but I think this is just because most people (or maybe just most Westerners) aren't aware of ki in everyday life. It's there all the time, and it's a natural part of life (otherwise what is it? not real? some magic power that only works on the mat?). As far as its religious nature goes, I think most really religious people will say that every part of their life is religious- not just being in church, temple, whatever, but talking to neighbors, watering plants, and so forth. As ki is just another part of life, how ki fits into religion depends on whether you are religious, or how religious you are. Once you can feel ki to some degree, you know it's real (as real anything else you experience consistently). From there, it's up to a person to fit it into their beliefs, whether totally atheist/scientific, or devoutly religious.

Sonja2012
04-07-2005, 10:21 AM
Everybody who thinks that ki is only metaphysical/spiritual/religious should go and get the book "A short history of nearly everything" by Bill Bryson. An exclusively scientific book which very soon makes it *very* clear that the deeper scientists get in their understanding of quantum physics, astronomy, chemistry and biology, the closer they get to the unknown, i.e. energy, life and why it exists, etc. There simply is no line between science and philosophy, the "real world" and the "hidden world", including nonverbal experineces, energy, etc.

Kevin Leavitt
04-07-2005, 01:26 PM
A good movie on the subject I just watched is What the Bleep Do We Know!?. If you have a hard time reading heavy stuff, this movie is at least entertaining and thought provoking. It made my wife and I think about a lot of things. Very relevant to aikido and self improvement. To me it is explains the essence of KI.

kironin
04-08-2005, 04:09 PM
I don't know, I don't want to sound ornery, but, ah... This is obviously a thread about ki, so if you're not interested in talking about ki, there are other threads...

That would be a first for the Ki Society wouldn't it. :D


unless you are syncretist, the original question begs another question: Which religion ?

Kevin Leavitt
04-08-2005, 04:30 PM
Which Religion? Good question.

I was actually serious in my other post wondering about what KI had to say about religion.

Since KI theoretically permeates everything and operates without concern for religion, then it really wouldn't matter what religion said about KI since it could have no influence over it. It would be more important IMHO what KI thought about religion since it has an influence on religion.

IMHO all religions recognize KI and religion I suppose is an interpretation of the signifance of KI and how it influences and interacts with us. Bottom line, KI means alot of different things to people depending upon their paradigm or dogma.

What is important is that we recognize that we are all connected by a common thread actions or lack of action influence others. Until we truly understand and internalize this we will never have peace.

xuzen
04-09-2005, 02:23 AM
Re: what does religion say about ki?

Nothing.

Boon.

bogglefreak20
04-11-2005, 01:56 PM
I tend to think about KI as the onmipressence of God. But I prefer to explore and extend KI rather than to think about it.

AaronFrancher
04-12-2005, 10:12 PM
I've noticed that many religions mention 'ki' without really realizing the connection. For example, blessings are possibly a form of universal ki. I'd like to list others...but i can't think of anything else at the moment. However, there are more.

Aiki.Ronin
04-14-2005, 12:49 PM
Good luck to any of you that try to convince religious people that Ki is applicable and part of life/religion! Generally when (here in the Deep South) I get into conversations about religious similarities the responses are less than openminded. Responses along the lines of, "the bible doesn't talk about Ki", or "no, your religion is wrong, don't you know you are going to hell", are typically the norm.

What about the idea of Ki as the "energy of intent"?

Could a christian struggling with the 'rightness or wrongness' of believing in ki be solved by remembering that "god is in all things"?
Just my 2 cents.

charron
04-14-2005, 05:50 PM
In one of the above posts - someone said something to the effect - that l a lot of martial artist achieve enlightenment. That's news to me. I don't believe that martial practice by itself is enough to reach enlightment. From what I've read, is that for most people who have reached enlightment, they basically all shared one commonly known practice. Not necessaritly martial practice. But all appear to have practiced a lot of 'meditation'. That to me is the real key to enlightment, not the martial practice. i don't believe that just a quick meditation at the beginning and end of practice are sufficient to achieve enlightment. But maybe continued practice of meditation, will.

thisisnotreal
04-14-2005, 09:35 PM
what would you say if someone said:

religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power

tedehara
04-14-2005, 10:40 PM
...Responses along the lines of, "the bible doesn't talk about Ki"...Maybe it does or maybe it doesn't.
King James Bible New Testament Mark 5:24-34
24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse.
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

thisisnotreal
04-14-2005, 11:12 PM
I continue to think about this issue personally.


variously lifted from: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA1201W1.htm


"...
We see in every country sects that attempted the control of prana. In this country there are mind-healers, spiritualists, Christian Scientists, hypnotists, and so on. If we examine these different sects, we shall find at the back of each is the control of prana, whether they know it or not. If you boil all the theories down, the residuum will be that. It is one and the same force they are manipulating.... Thus we see that pranayama includes all that is true even of spiritualism. Similarly, you will find that wherever any sect or body of people is trying to discover anything occult, mysterious, or hidden, they are really practicing some sort of yoga to control their prana. You will find that wherever there is any extraordinary display of power, it is the manifestation of prana. 13"

...
?The concept of prana ("breath") is a key to the process. Pranayama refers to the knowledge and control of prana, or mystical energy, not merely to the control of one’s physical breath. 9 Prana is believed to be universal divine energy residing behind the material world (akasa). Prana is said to have five forms, and all energy is thought to be a manifestation of it. Swami Nikhilananada describes it in his Vivekananda—The Yogas and Other Works as "the infinite, omnipresent manifesting power of this universe." 10 Perfect control of prana makes one God. One can have "infinite knowledge, infinite power, now":

What power on earth would not be his? He would be able to move the sun and stars out of their places, to control everything in the universe from the atoms to the biggest suns. This is the end and aim of pranayama. When the yogi becomes perfect there will be nothing in nature not under his control. If he orders the gods or the souls of the departed to come, they will come at his bidding. All the forces of nature will obey him as slaves.... He who has controlled prana has controlled his own mind and all the minds... and all the bodies that exist.… 11
"
"In other words, prana, God, and occult energy are all one and the same. The one who practices yogic breathing (pranayama) is by definition attempting to manipulate occult ("divine") energy."

Jake Karlins
04-15-2005, 10:44 AM
IMO traditional religion doesn't say a whole lot about ki, at least explicitly. I don't see it in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism. Hinduism, Islam, I know less about. But I'm not really that well-educated in religion, I could be off-base. It just seems that people who are equating ki and religion have to do so on their own, and stretch traditions a little (not a bad thing necessarily, but to say ki is inherent in Christianity or whatever is far from orthodox, arguable, maybe, but that's the thing- it's not clear).
Which religion? are they all lumped in together (this implies to me they're all the same, and is this accurate?)?
I didn't find the Bible quote all that convincing, seems very open to interpretation. I find the new age prana quote a little disturbing, in that it suggest I can "have infinite power, now." Sounds like a sales pitch. However, what I do agree with, in a more general way, is that many spiritual people of various ilk seem to tap into some kind of energy- this isn't theory here, I'm saying that when I'm in the prescence of really religious people, even those whose ideas I find problematic, I often feel a great deal of energy coming from them. This suggests to me that there's something going on- some connection between energy manifesting itself and religion. What the connection is, though I don't know. I'm kind of waiting for this connection to make itself clear in its own time.

one last response- I'd say religion is more about the pursuit of truth, and about training to live well in the world, more about this than the search for God. If God is part of that truth, fine, if not, that's okay, too. I would also differ with the idea that ki is "the pursuit of power." I see it as a living thing, to be experienced. What you do with your ki is up to you. Traditionally, it tends to be used to heal, or to increase function in martial arts. It makes the body work better. Whether this is power or not, I don't know...

John Boswell
04-15-2005, 01:29 PM
I do know THIS: a shodan in my class has a master degree in theology and is a card carrying christian like few I've ever seen... and HE has no problem with the term "Ki" and is able to grant that various people have varied opinions on it.

Find out what Ki is to YOU. So long as YOU understand it, can use it, work with and around and through it... what does it matter what other people think?

Be true to yourself... To thine own self, be true.

Qatana
04-16-2005, 09:55 AM
[QUOTE=. I find the new age prana quote a little disturbing, in that it suggest I can "have infinite power, now." ...[/QUOTE]

Prana New Age? Prana is Ki is Chi and it has been written about and discussed for several thousand years.
And I don't know any Buddhist teacher or yoga teacher who advocates cultivating "power" of any kind except for concentration.

Prana is Breath.

Chuck.Gordon
04-17-2005, 02:46 AM
what would you say if someone said:

religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power

Hmm. Don't know if I could agree with that.

I'd be more likely to opine that religion is the pursuit of power, myself. And many folks following asian spiritual traditions might venture that their pursuit of things relating to ki was a way to reach for god-ness.

YMMV.

Personally, I don't think religion has anything it can or ought to say about ki. Much like the church-and-state seperation, religion should be in the heart, the church/temple/grove, and in the home, if you choose to believe ... but religion has no place in the dojo unless the dojo is connceted to a (related, i.e.; Shinto or Buddhist) religious tradition itself (ad then very likely it would have very specific doctrine concerning ki and kami and such...).

Chuck

DustinC
04-22-2005, 01:28 PM
A good movie on the subject I just watched is What the Bleep Do We Know!?. If you have a hard time reading heavy stuff, this movie is at least entertaining and thought provoking. It made my wife and I think about a lot of things. Very relevant to aikido and self improvement. To me it is explains the essence of KI.

A very interesting movie, which I believe speaks indirectly about ki.

I see ki development to be a spiritual pursuit. Born and raised a Catholic I have since stepped out of organized religion and the church to pursue a personal path. I mean Jesus only went to church once and that was to trash the place. If there is one thing I learned from him it is that questioning and challenging conventional ideals and practices is essential to our spiritual growth.

Having seen the positive effects that meditation can have on society (recorded drops in violence etc) and the way our thoughts and words affect not only our internal makeup, but the makeup of water (and who knows what else) I sincerely believe "plus ki calls plus ki".

MikeLogan
04-22-2005, 03:58 PM
religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power
Check that,

Religion might be the pursuit of God

Ki is the sneakers you've got on to catch up to that sonofa%$^#@!

~~~~~
Like others basically said,

Ki is between you and the universe,

God is between you and God

God being that all-encompassing type, kinda like the universe, oh, and Ki kinda like permeating everything, thus encompassing it, um, wait, am I talking about god, ki, or the physical universe? There's so much room to move around in these three seemingly different arenas. Maybe they're the same arena.

At least 99.999999% percent of the eyeball you're using to read this right now is empty space, same goes for the screen, same goes for lead, feathers, the moon. The matter of You never touches anything in the sense we understand, and right now you are slowly diffusing into your clothing, or at least into the chair you may, or may not, be seated in, and it into you. :hypno: :hypno: :hypno:

Two atoms brought within a certain distance of any other atom in all the universe results in a repulsive force between those atoms. Both atoms are shifted due to this, the one with more momentum 'moves' the other. This in turn affects atoms bonded to the atom 'moved', so on and so forth, and before you know it you're looking up at nage, glad they didn't diffuse you all the way into the mat...

Sounds a bit like Ki, eh? Just because I didn't talk about it doesn't mean i ruled out god, or the divine. I only know a teensy bit about the universe, which is still a lot more than i know about god, or the divine.

Happy Friday :)

logan

matthew farina
04-23-2005, 04:38 AM
Just curious...I was raised christian, but wouldn't claim to be an expert on the subject, or ki for that matter, but does anyone else see similarites between ki and the holy spirit? Disregarding the whole part about the trinity of god and all that. A lot of the rest of it seems alike to me. Maybe I'm just misinformed? thanks Matt Farina.

ChristianBoddum
04-23-2005, 07:26 AM
If Ki will make you speak in tongues then yes !
seriously , you are raised christian - that is one thing ,
to be a born again by the holy spirit is another ,
revelation comes from a life in the spirit.
I think your question comes from not yet knowing the holy spirit - no offense intended.

From a christian point of view it is only natural to try to find out how it all fits together.

Please provide a little more info on the depth of your faith/belief.

Yours - Chr.B.

Mary Eastland
04-23-2005, 08:21 AM
After reading the first post I was reminded why I left organized religion. (no judgment of the writer intended.)
Ki is a wonderful experience that we can have every time we have mind, body co-ordination. The exchange of ki that happens during a class is a gift from what gives it, whether you believe it is the universe, god or the connection of people.
Sometimes I just need to accept things in the now instead of torturing myself with analyzing. What ever happens when we die will happen whether we worry about it or not. Part of me is curious.......I hope its fun.;o)
Mary

Akhilleus
05-04-2005, 10:24 PM
Good luck to any of you that try to convince religious people that Ki is applicable and part of life/religion! Generally when (here in the Deep South) I get into conversations about religious similarities the responses are less than openminded. Responses along the lines of, "the bible doesn't talk about Ki", or "no, your religion is wrong, don't you know you are going to hell", are typically the norm.

What about the idea of Ki as the "energy of intent"?

Could a christian struggling with the 'rightness or wrongness' of believing in ki be solved by remembering that "god is in all things"?
Just my 2 cents.


I always tend to laugh when people quote the Bible to me and preach it as it is written in a literal sense. I fear they forget that our precious Bible is a collection of storys all coming from word of mouth. Though you look past the storys them selves to find the moral/meaning behind the passages it is negative to take the text in a literal sense.....and for those who argue against me..

"If your hand or foot causes you to sin, chop it off and throw it away! You would be better off to go into life crippled or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the fire that never goes out."

so I ask, how can you practise Aikido with no hands?! Again you look for the moral...

As far as my opinion goes on Ki and religion....I feel that though it is not in the Bible I also know that neither are Dinosaurs, Atoms, Cars, and worm holes but we sure do know they exist and we don't think of them as evil do we? I don't think God had intended to put complicated scientific/paranormal/human psyche material in the Bible, at the time it was written we were rather, and to a huge extent still are, primitive creatures.

So do I think of ki as evil/bad ? No.
Does God think of Ki as work of the devil? Don't know, and chances are neither do you.

But I feel that as long as I develop my ki in a manner which does not harm my self nor anyone else God wouldn't think about smiting me. (I hope :D )

ok..I better stop while I'm ahead.....

malsmith
05-05-2005, 09:48 PM
haha i kind of like frank's reply... it made me happy.

so just a FYI, i started this thread because i go to a christian school... and alot of people ask me what i do or what i like about martial arts... but in a "christian" environment if i said anything about ki i think i would get a response like "the bible doesn't talk about Ki", or "no, your religion is wrong, don't you know you are going to hell"... but now i think i know how to handle those situations better without anyone starting to yell

Akhilleus
05-05-2005, 11:47 PM
Glad I could give you some material to fire back at the ignorance that sometimes flourishes among the "i'm right you're wrong, no ifs ands or buts" groups. Just assure them where your faith is, because thats all that matters....living the Christian life and that age old thing that the lord asked us to have...faith.

daniel loughlin
07-14-2005, 11:37 AM
ki is energy and energy cannot be created or desetroyd so i believe that there is life after death but im not sure about reincarnation

guest89893
07-14-2005, 01:12 PM
I'm late reading this post and now can't help myself but:

Religion is the pursuit of rules of worship.
Ki is the pursuit of Ki.

Hhmn rude and obtuse in a single post ...not bad. ;) :)

Kevin Leavitt
07-14-2005, 01:48 PM
ki is energy and energy cannot be created or desetroyd so i believe that there is life after death but im not sure about reincarnation



You have proof...you just reincarnated this dead thread! :)

Reincarnation is easy to believe, IMHO, if you do not take it literally, in the western sense, but symbolically.

If energy cannot be created or destroyed (read back in this thread, many believe that KI while explained as energy is not simply energy), then it is transferred, as you stated.

I believe it is necessary to understand Karma and how it is created, built upon, destroyed, and transferred. From a western standpoint, the movie "pay it forward" is a wonderful example of the power of Karma.

You live your life. You influence society, the world, and the environment. As you are absorbed back into the fabric of the universe...your karma you created survives. Future generations are made up of the life force or energy as you might call it that you created, both positive and negative. They experience and inherit the legacy that you leave behind.

I personally believe that part of what is wrong with my society is that we don't believe in this concept of rebirth. Many believe we are separate from the universe and therefore are "outsiders" and here to enjoy the fruits of the earth. We don't see ourselves as custodians, or caretakers.

Maybe there is a heaven that is separate from earth, maybe there is a hell. Maybe we leave here never to return.

Think about this, what if we do get to heaven and find out that the heaven we have is the legacy (postive/negative) that we created for ourselves.....would that be heaven or hell????

Who really knows what reincarnation means. To me it means transformation. I think that is something most religions can agree on. What your particular belief in that transformation will be may vary...but what is important, IMHO, is that we always try to do the right things for ourselves and others and you cannot go wrong!

Okay time to turn off my quasi, preachy, pontification, illiterate ramblings for the night :)

Mike Sigman
07-17-2005, 03:41 PM
ki is energy and energy cannot be created or desetroyd so i believe that there is life after death but im not sure about reincarnation Energy can be measured. Show me one instance in which ki has been measured and deemed an "energy".

Regards,

Mike Sigman

sutemaker17
07-17-2005, 03:54 PM
Mike,
Ki can be measured by checking the subject's blood for midichlorian count.
Sheesh!

Jason :)

Mike Sigman
07-17-2005, 03:56 PM
Holy Smokes.... I'd totally forgotten. ;)

Mike "Where's my light saber?" Sigman

Sanshouaikikai
07-17-2005, 11:09 PM
Frank, sir? Are you an Episcopalian Liberal Christian who should not call himself a Christian because you don't believe in any Biblically inspired theology whatsoever or are you just an idiot who just reads random parts of the Bible, listen to a whole bunch agnostic/gnostic wannabe type people like Dan Brown, and listen to whatever some dead old oriental guy says and think that you know what you're talking about? I just want to make a couple of points here...first off...the Bible was not written by word of mouth...the ONLY word of mouth that was given was that from the mouth of God...and people like Moses, Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, Jonah, Matthew, Luke, Peter, Paul, John, James, and the 33 other authors (44 authors and 66 books in the Bible). If was all by word of mouth how the frig do we have a Bible today? Wow...you need to stop talking about things you don't know about. Second...the Bible and Science go hand in hand....God created the so called Laws of Science or Physics or whatever it was that Sir Isaac Newton DISCOVERED. If you don't believe me go to sd.gospelcom.net it talks all about science and the Bible...and it has nothing to do with the heretics who refer to themselves as Christian Scientists or a better term that they have adopted, "Scientologists" who have nothing to do with Christianity. Also...if you read the book of Job...I believe it's one of the last chapters I can't recall which one it was exactly...it talked about a Leviathan which is in fact a type of Dinosaur. Also...I will agree with you that yes...not EVERYTHING in the Bible was taken to be literally....but MOST of it is and everything is taken literally in the spiritual sense because there is nothing more real than the spiritual world my friends...you don't have to believe that...I'm not making you or anything...but it's the truth...satan exists, demons exist, angels exist and most importantly the triune God exists. However...you don't have take my word for it...but...if anyone really is interested in discussing this topic further in a more appropriate setting...please...I urge you to e-mail me at Irockloud@yahoo.com. I will be more than glad to talk to you and answer any of your questions. Also...my AIM s/n is fistfulofdread and my Yahoo IM s/n is Irockloud, same as my e-mail.

Big Dave
07-18-2005, 03:14 AM
A few thoughts....
As a Christian, I think it all depends on how you intepret or understand ki. If you believe that there is a magical force that exists outside of God's realm that can be manipulated than this would be contrary to Christian teaching. On the other hand, if you simply believe that ki exists (like gravity) by God's design, then no problem.
To me, it's like bowing to the picture of O'Sensei in the front of the dojo. IN my heart, I do this out of respect, not to revere him like a god. That too would cross the line.
I do think that Aikido's basic message of harmony is very Christian.

Alan, the Old testament stories were passed down orally for a couple of thousand years before being written down. (writing wasn't invented yet). Even the Gospels were passed down this way for 70-100 years before being written down. The Christian Bible was created by men about 300 years after the death of Christ when a bunch of scholars got together and literally picked out the best stories out of many. This collection then became known as the Bible. I know that many fundamentalists would say yes, that's all true, but God whispered the words the words into their ears as they wrote down the stories and also inspired the scholars as they did their work and created the Bible. This part you will have to decide for yourself.

Sanshouaikikai
07-18-2005, 06:14 PM
Mr. Peling....you have to stop listening to this gnostic nonsense! Of course I can't make you do what you want to do...you want to continue believing that...that's fine with me...but please...don't write it like it's the truth. I'm only concerned with the truth....and what you explained to me there...was farther from the truth than Japan is to my house in Buffalo, New York! LOL! I've done much research on ancient Hebrew and where it came from and what not...I go to a Messianic Jewish synogogue, ok? So I know what I'm talking about. During the time of Abraham there was a such thing as cuneiform which in fact is a form of writing, did you know that? Remember Abraham lived in Ur for a long time. Later he migrated to Canaan and adopted their language. However...there was still forms of writing even with the Canaanites! Mr. Peling...before I continue further...I think you are underestimating ancient people WAAAAYYYYY too much here! Again...the Hebrew came into the picture with it's own alphabet which Moses and many Old Testament authors used to read and write. Did you know that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch? If you don't know what that is...that's the first five books of the Bible...the first being Genesis. Also...in the New Testament (B'rith Hadoshah in Hebrew) Greek was basically the top language most people spoke in that region of the mediterranean at that time because of Alexander the Great and what not...and Greek was a written language as well. So was Aramaic which was spoken by Jesus and His disciples as well as Hebrew! So again...the Gospels were experiences the authors, which were Christ's direct disciples, had with Jesus and what He taught and did and what not. Nothing was by word of mouth as you say. Also...you made mention of some other "stories" and gospels. Those are Gnostic gospels that were written by a bunch of wannabes that had no respect for the church. Like the Gospel of Thomas for instance...Thomas never wrote a Gospel. The one who did write the Gospel was some ancient "hippie" who wanted to screw things up. If you don't believe me...I will give you some steps to help you out here: 1.) Stop reading only gnostic and agnostic literature which will only give you a false interpretation of both history, Christian history, and Christian theology. 2.) Check out the Christian Research Institute at www.equip.org. They should give you some solid, scriptural, and historical information that would really open your eyes. 3.) Don't type things on public forums about other people's religion(s) without really knowing much about it...even if you THINK you're a part of their respective faith...it would only lead to embarrassment on your part. Thanks...God bless you. If you have further questions...e-mail me.

Big Dave
07-18-2005, 09:04 PM
Mr. Peling....you have to stop listening to this gnostic nonsense! Of course I can't make you do what you want to do...you want to continue believing that...that's fine with me...but please...don't write it like it's the truth. I'm only concerned with the truth....and what you explained to me there...was farther from the truth than Japan is to my house in Buffalo, New York! LOL! I've done much research on ancient Hebrew and where it came from and what not...I go to a Messianic Jewish synogogue, ok? So I know what I'm talking about. During the time of Abraham there was a such thing as cuneiform which in fact is a form of writing, did you know that? Remember Abraham lived in Ur for a long time. Later he migrated to Canaan and adopted their language. However...there was still forms of writing even with the Canaanites! Mr. Peling...before I continue further...I think you are underestimating ancient people WAAAAYYYYY too much here! Again...the Hebrew came into the picture with it's own alphabet which Moses and many Old Testament authors used to read and write. Did you know that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch? If you don't know what that is...that's the first five books of the Bible...the first being Genesis. Also...in the New Testament (B'rith Hadoshah in Hebrew) Greek was basically the top language most people spoke in that region of the mediterranean at that time because of Alexander the Great and what not...and Greek was a written language as well. So was Aramaic which was spoken by Jesus and His disciples as well as Hebrew! So again...the Gospels were experiences the authors, which were Christ's direct disciples, had with Jesus and what He taught and did and what not. Nothing was by word of mouth as you say. Also...you made mention of some other "stories" and gospels. Those are Gnostic gospels that were written by a bunch of wannabes that had no respect for the church. Like the Gospel of Thomas for instance...Thomas never wrote a Gospel. The one who did write the Gospel was some ancient "hippie" who wanted to screw things up. If you don't believe me...I will give you some steps to help you out here: 1.) Stop reading only gnostic and agnostic literature which will only give you a false interpretation of both history, Christian history, and Christian theology. 2.) Check out the Christian Research Institute at www.equip.org. They should give you some solid, scriptural, and historical information that would really open your eyes. 3.) Don't type things on public forums about other people's religion(s) without really knowing much about it...even if you THINK you're a part of their respective faith...it would only lead to embarrassment on your part. Thanks...God bless you. If you have further questions...e-mail me.



Well, all I can say is that your interpretation of things runs contrary to any scholarly history. I doubt that anything I'm going to say is going to change your mind. Ultimately this is a forum about Aikido and I think we have gotten off track here. Good luck to you.

Sanshouaikikai
07-18-2005, 09:07 PM
You're right...it is a forum about Aikido...and no...my thoughts and views come from extensive research of the subject...not Dan Brown as in your case. Anywho...yeah...back to Aikido, LOL!

Kevin Leavitt
07-20-2005, 11:22 AM
Alan Rodriquez:

3.) Don't type things on public forums about other people's religion(s) without really knowing much about it...even if you THINK you're a part of their respective faith...it would only lead to embarrassment on your part. Thanks...God bless you. If you have further questions...e-mail me.

In all due respect, maybe you should follow your own advice. You certainly don't represent all segments of Christanity and belief systems that surround it. You certainly are entitled to your opinions, thoughts, and words. I frankly find some of your post toxic and intolerant.

Part of the problems in the world is that people are so eager to be understood by others that they fail to understand the world around them. Hold onto your beliefs, but seek to understand and be patient with others and theirs. It does not mean that you have to accept them, but be tolerant.

We can never acheive true peace in the world until we stop the deviseness that is wedge between all of us.

Jiawei
07-21-2005, 02:09 AM
Well, theoretically, as mentioned in a post above, I don;t think religion has said anything specific about KI. So maybe the question to ask is what would religion say about KI ?

Well, just an opinion: that would depend on what the individual believes KI is . I'm a realist so KI to me is not something within but to me is right posture, extension of arms to give maximum leverage and with any exercise, proper breath control to preserve your stamina while performing the technique.

I'm a Christian so I guess if thats what I beleive of KI christian theology doesn't challenge it. I refuse to think of the converse because well, its kind of unecessary for me.

ryujin
07-24-2005, 12:52 PM
...first off...the Bible was not written by word of mouth...the ONLY word of mouth that was given was that from the mouth of God...and people like Moses, Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, Jonah, Matthew, Luke, Peter, Paul, John, James, and the 33 other authors (44 authors and 66 books in the Bible). If was all by word of mouth how the frig do we have a Bible today?

Because they were all good at taking dictation and wrote the words of "god" down on parchment? :D

:circle:

Carl

ryujin
07-24-2005, 01:28 PM
what would you say if someone said:

religion is the pursuit of: God
ki is the pursuit of: Power

I would say "That's one way of looking at it and it's neither right nor wrong unless the person reading it chooses to see it as right or wrong. Like many have said throughout this thread, there are many paths to that lead to the same place."

Having lived with no less than three people who are now in doctoral programs having to do with religous studies, after many conversation about the various religions around the world, my take is that most of them have pretty much the same tenant and that is to "be excellent to each other and party on dude" and oddly enough I personally feel as though aikido allows people to do just that.

:D

:circle:
Carl

Sanshouaikikai
07-24-2005, 11:57 PM
Alan Rodriquez:



In all due respect, maybe you should follow your own advice. You certainly don't represent all segments of Christanity and belief systems that surround it. You certainly are entitled to your opinions, thoughts, and words. I frankly find some of your post toxic and intolerant.

Part of the problems in the world is that people are so eager to be understood by others that they fail to understand the world around them. Hold onto your beliefs, but seek to understand and be patient with others and theirs. It does not mean that you have to accept them, but be tolerant

We can never acheive true peace in the world until we stop the deviseness that is wedge between all of us.

Okay, Mr. Leavitt...what the frig did I say in any of my previous posts regarding Christianity that were toxic and intolerant? Again...you and your ignorant self trying to be wise in your own understanding (of I don't know what..you probably wouldn't even know) saying crap you don't know about. Nothing new. I believe that true world peace is aquired through "agreeing to disagree" with people which I believe is tolerance and like you yourself said, Mr. Leavitt....not accepting what they believe....but tolerating it...however...if the information regarding Christianity and its history and theology is wrong...then...people like myself...who are Christian and KNOW what we believe in and KNOW our history and KNOW world history...I don't think it would be wrong for me or any of my other brothers and sisters in Christ to defend our faith. The Bible is very straightforward in a lot of the things that it says. You could read it yourself if you want to know the things it's straightforward about. Also...I said if one does not know about their faith or anyone elses...don't put posts or w/e on the internet about it that makes you look foolish. Also...Christianity is Christianity...it is the fact that Christ is the Son of the Lord God Almighty who is the Messiah and who is One with the the Father and the Holy Spirit. As Christians...we believe that salvation is ONLY through Christ and Christ alone and through no one or nothing else not even the good things you do for the old lady down the street...you'll still go to hell without Christ because we're all scumbags and sinners who deserve death and eternal torment but God who is so loving to us decided to send His son, Jesus Christ, to die in OUR place so that we may accept Him as Lord and become one in Christ...which saves us from Hell. That's more or less Christianity in a "nutshell". So...if what I said here doesn't represent all "segments of Chrisitianity" and "belief systems surrounding it"...too bad! That's what church, the Bible and Seminary is for...what I just said here is basic belief of all true Christians, ok Mr. Leavitt?

Kevin Leavitt
07-25-2005, 03:01 PM
Well here are a few select lines of post you have made:

"Yes...but I didn't mean it as a curse (because curses are from satan, moron). "

"Frank, sir? Are you an Episcopalian Liberal Christian who should not call himself a Christian because you don't believe in any Biblically inspired theology whatsoever or are you just an idiot who just reads random parts of the Bible,"

"First of all...I do respond...y'all are just too ignorant to understand! (Like how I put the "y'all" in there?)'

Agreeing to disagree is one thing. Using words like Ignorant and moron directed toward people is quite another.

Also, these views represent YOUR particular view of Christianity, not everyones.

Also, how to you propose to defend your ideological beliefs? WIth kindness, compassion, and love? or with toxic words, warlike attitudes, and violence?

O'Sensei said, there is room for all religions in aikido..does the converse apply?

You walk a thin line between "agreeing to disagree" and tolerance, IMHO.

Sanshouaikikai
07-25-2005, 08:27 PM
Ok...you're right about the mean-spirited words...however...I have apologized all those times that I had said those things...so...you're the one that's being warlike and toxic for going so low by bringing up past stuff. Also...the reason I said those things was because I'm extremely fed up with the people on this site thinking they know what they're talking about...there's this very arrogant attitude on this site when it comes to talking about facts such as your's when you just said to me , "these views represent YOUR particular view of Christianity, not everyones." Yeah....maybe not every non-Christian's view of Christianity...but definitely every Christian's view of Christianity as is spoken of in the Bible as well. This is not MY interpretation...believe it or not...the Bible is not for personal interpretation...the Scriptures were meant for the reader to be led by the Holy Spirit to come to the universal Christian conclusion that Jesus Christ is Lord and that ONLY through Him is there salvation. If you think that that is only MY view of Christianity...then you need to get out more over there in Germany and visit some churches, read the Bible, and look up some information on what we Christians believe. A great site is www.equip.org. Check it out. Again...you are right in saying that the name calling I committed is not Christ like and I apologize...but I am human and as a human I have my flaws that the Lord is working on in my life...believe it or not...I'm NOWHERE as impatient as I used to be! LOL! Thanks be to God! Next time someone says something ignorant I'll be more patient and there'll be no name calling...and if there is...you can kick me off this site forever. Seriously. I mean that.

Kevin Leavitt
07-26-2005, 01:50 PM
Mistakes are okay...it is when they become repetitive that they stop becoming mistakes. Most all of us have egos and have to learn how to be patient! That is what life is all about!

I have found that it helps to try and deeply understand the other side as much as I can before forming an opinion or voicing an opinion...sometimes it is hard to do.

It is evident that you feel very passionate about your relationship with Jesus. That is a good thing. I hope that you try and embrace the qualities that he represents...peace, harmony, love, compassion, joy...IMHO...that is something we can all agree on regardless of our beliefs!

We should be celebrating that! I believe that is what Christ wanted us to do!

I may be direct, but I don't really consider myself arrogant. My remarks are simply to remind you that your views don't necessarily represent everyone's.

Think about your aikido...when you make assumptions about uke...you are usually wrong and it becomes hard to read them, work with them, and be effective....that is all I am saying.

Arrogance would be saying that your beliefs are wrong. I never said that...only that I feel your intolerance and assumptions about others is wrong!

JohnDavis
08-11-2005, 11:53 PM
Religion is the pursuit of the Divine
Ki is the pursuit of the mundane

I have no problem with the first part of this. However, the second part is, for me, a Ki Society member, odd.

Ki just is, it is not a pursuit of anything. One may pursue Ki, but Ki pursues nothing. I know this is kind of existential sounding, but there you have it.

As to Ki being a part of creation. Well, why not? If Ki is that undercurrent of energy in all things, even the inanimate, then it must have been present or created with everything else. Just my opiinion, YMMV.

Reitan
08-22-2005, 06:28 PM
I see no problem correlating christian beliefs with eastern beliefs, or any other religion for that matter. The father,son,And holy ghost trinity of christianity matches the pure-mind, ego, and ki found in eastern traditions. There are countless religions that only differ in language at their root. Anyone who has a belief system prior to training in any authentic martial art will find a deeper meaning and connection in their original belief system based on their experiences. Likewise, a non-religious individual will develop a working knowledge of all levels of reality due to directly experiencing them in the course of their training. Again, the result is the same. As for ki in religion, I don't see the conflict, since almost all religions recognize everything in existence is a manifestation of it. Alot of people since the dawn of time have experienced "God",and when trying to explain what god is they found it necessary to break it down into components that could be understood. This is done not to explain "God",but to show others how to experience god for themselves. Many people have grown up over many years in a particular faith system and accept it's teachings blindly as a matter of course. Life or death martial training takes those faith systems and tries them by fire. Everything we believe is brought into question, until ultimately, all we are left with is an experience-based understanding of how reality really is. I have never met Jesus, but by all accounts the world is a better place for him having been in it. But he was not alone, there are also others who made a tremendous impact. I also remember reading in the bible when Jesus was asleep on a boat. A storm rose up and scared his disciples,and they woke Jesus up and told him the boat was at risk,and their lives as well. He calmed the storm and chastised them. Now, why would Jesus,a man of peace and rightousness, get angry and chew them out- unless they were capable of doing the same thing themselves? We all read of incredible feats performed by martial artists. Many people got involved in the martial arts for that very reason,despite their religious or philisophical orientation. That is the spirit we should bring to the dojo with us,open to all possibilities,ready to really learn through trial and error,and with our identity preferences set aside for the common welfare of our classmates. Our faith and ki will naturally display themselves in our technique as we develop into real, aware human beings.

mathewjgano
08-23-2005, 04:51 PM
But all appear to have practiced a lot of 'meditation'. That to me is the real key to enlightment, not the martial practice.

I would say meditation and martial practice "ought" be one and the same. Just as there are many forms of meditative practice, so too can martial practice be meditative. Through training with great intent we learn how to focus and reconcile that intent with the dictates of the reality around us. It is my personal goal to make every instant of my life a living meditation...to be in the "middle of now," so to speak. To me it's much like the idea that mankind and nature are distinct from each other, which is a common conception in my experience. I think Aikido is an active and profound meditation just as I think mankind is a part of the greater nature that is reality, whether that includes Jesus, Yaweh, Dharma or whatever is the ultimate truth of the "nature of nature."
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
08-23-2005, 05:22 PM
Yeah....maybe not every non-Christian's view of Christianity...but definitely every Christian's view of Christianity as is spoken of in the Bible as well.

Forgive me for being interesting in this part of the thread; i don't mean to beat any dead horses into glue. I do however have a question regarding the idea that there is but one conception of what it means to be Christian. Why are there so many sects within Christianity? Surely it's not because of a homogenous view on the singular authority behind it which is the Bible?
Now for the original point of this thread...
I know Christians who view Aikido, of which ki is a major concept, as being perfectly in fitting with their faith, and they find no fault with the concepts expounded upon by OSensei, who was a Shintojin. I think these are people who are intimately aware of both these paradigms. From a scientific point of view, all existance/creation is matter and energy, which are essentially two sides of an existing "coin." Ki is described generally as energy, of which there are many manifestations (heat, kinetic, whatever). One very compelling aspect, to me, is the description of vibrational energy found in OSensei's teachings. This is in keeping with verified science. Whether one holds the view that you must pay homage to the force/energy described simply as "Jesus" or to all that Jesus stood for, i think the principle is the same. If I follow Jesus and through Jesus learn to follow all the virtues He encapsulates, or, if through those virtues I come to follow their source abstractly, it seems to me the result is very much the same. I have been told essentially the same thing by people who firmly describe themselves as "Christian."
Anyway, I appologize in advance for any annoyance this post may have caused. I only reply out of a sincere desire to both understand and, hopefully, provide food for thought.
Sincerely,
Matthew J Gano

Scotti
08-23-2005, 05:48 PM
"I see no problem correlating christian beliefs with eastern beliefs, or any other religion for that matter."

Christianity, in and of itself, is far more eastern than it is western (it's called the Middle East not the Middle West). Far too many of the early disciplines of the faith have been relegated to the "East." Just one example is meditation. The west won't touch meditation with a ten-foot pole but the Bible is replete with references to meditation. For all intents and purposes the word meditation, in the west, is now synonymous with “pondering.”

“Western Christianity” is left without those crucial disciplines and accordingly many western adherents are left hungry for something more, deeper. And thus the draw for many in the west to the eastern religions.

For some time now I’ve been convinced that I could learn more about my own Christian faith from a Buddhist monk.

dyffcult
08-23-2005, 10:22 PM
Joseph Bowen stated:

Religion is the pursuit of the Divine
Ki is the pursuit of the mundane

Nope...humbly disagree.

Religion is the pursuit of security
Ki is the pursuit of connection with all things

Just my very humble persepective.

Brenda

jeff.
08-24-2005, 01:09 PM
i've been thinking about this thread quite a bit since last night. i study comparative religions, and so this kidna stuff tends to be right up my alley.

my own research indicates the following connection:

ki = chi/qi = shakti.

these four notions are at their conceptual roots basically identical. each culture, of course, puts their own mythological/archtypal/symbolic glosses on the ideas. for example in india: shakti is also the name of a goddess who is the female concort and object of worship for the god shiva. for shivites, shiva is to be understood as the root deity (i.e. "one god", the source) of which all other deities are manifestations of on some level. shakti is the female/creative energy of the divine source (the indian way of understanding the holy spirit). conceptually this is often described as the One seperates into the male / female pair shiva and shakti, which represent much the same notion as yang and yin (yo and in in japanese).

this can be further elaborated by using the tao te ching. in section 42 we have

tao becomes one
one becomes two
two become three

three create the 10,000 things.

this can probably be understood in a multitude of ways. but the usual understanding is the tao (which, remember, is ultimately beyond words) becomes "one" (that, which in the first section of the book is described as nameable, and as "the mother"). this divides into, or indicates, two: yin and yang. this in turn becomes, or indicates, three. these three are often understood as yin, yang and chi (see the middle of chapter one). or: male energy, female energy, and the creative unifying energy.

in osensei's spiritual teachings we run into some of the same notions. the source gives birth to the one word ("su") which creates fire and water (fire and water [ka and mi -- kami] being another way of describing in and yo). all of which animates and is animated by ki.

(quick side note for the curious: ki is often made analogous to the indian concept of prana. but strictly speaking, prana comes down to breath, and the practice of prana gives of access to shakti. so prana would be better understood as relating to kokyu, as the practice of kokyu is what enables us to have access to ki.)

how all of this relates to christianity is not too difficult to see.

tao = source = father

mother = su = son / word (another way of conceptualizing "word" is "sophia", keeping in mind that the old testiment often refers to the word as feminine)

chi = ki = holy spirit

this, of course, only functions on a fundamental level, as a way of understanding how various cultures have described their experiences of these aspects of whatever you wish to call it. each culture then, quite naturally, begins to build upon these concepts various cultural glosses. and from these we get the perceived, and often practically necessary, differences between faiths.

in response to the person who asked something to the effect of whether or not ki can make people speak in tongues. it depends on your understanding of this phenomena. the gifts of the holy spirit described in acts bears strikingly incredible similarities to the descriptions of the fruits of enlightenment thru ki study as described in the eastern mystical traditions. and the preceeding descritptions in acts also look quite a bit like descriptions of enlightenment in said faiths.

however, in other faiths, while you often find people in the throws of divine ecstacy speaking, shouting, etc. in various languages, most often this lasting gift is understood as the ability to suddenly speak a language. this would seem to be so for the apostles as well, since this mostly illiterate crew then went out to spead the gospel in the languages they apparently could not speak before.

as to measuring ki: look into the study of the zero-point field in physics. this field was discovered decades ago, but study of it only recently began. some interesting aspects of it: it does not appear to be physical (in the sense of the electro-magnetic field) or non-physical, but instead seems to exist at the "zero point" (hence the name) where these distictions do not yet exist; it is in everything, quite literally, down to the smallest partical we've found yet; it appears to exist outside of the space-time continuum; it seems to be the seat of conciousness, and in this way has reinvigorated the study of what was once called parapsychology at places like harvard and cambridge, etc. be careful of the sources you find tho. this idea has been latched onto by many a new age folk, creating both positive and negative speculations and research, but also watering down the field (no pun intended) a bit. there is a book called the field by lynn mctaggart, which is pretty good, tho she is a reporter around issues of alternative health, and so her book is understandably coloured by her interests. however, the science she reports is impeccable, and thru her book you'll find the ways to do further research via scientific channels if that's your bent.

so that's some of my observations, via my field of study, on matters of ki.

sorry this post is soooooo long...

jeff.

Sanshouaikikai
08-24-2005, 05:47 PM
Mr. Gano...first of all...in referring to sects do you mean those religious groups that include: Scientologists, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, etc. which claim that they are "Christian" but when you get into what they believe in they have nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity whatsoever or do you mean that as in the many denominations in Protestant Christianity as well as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy? In reference to the latter...yes...some of it has to do with how they interpret the Bible...but...each Christian denomination...whether it be R.C., E.O., or any Protestant group believes in the Trinity which includes Christ, the Bible as the infallible Word of God, and that Christ died and rose again for the salvation of our souls. You can pretty much go to any theologian and they'll tell you that that is what ALL Christians believe in. It is refferred to by some as the Essentials of true orthodox Christianity. Now...as for other secondary or "non-important" beliefs, practices, and traditions and how they run their respective churches (Church government structure)...those are the MAIN reasons why there are so many different denominations.

akiy
08-24-2005, 06:30 PM
Hi folks,

Let's try to stay on the topic of "what does religion say about ki?" in this thread. General discussion on religion not pertaining to aikido should be discussed elsewhere.

Thanks,

-- Jun

mathewjgano
08-24-2005, 08:51 PM
Hi folks,

Let's try to stay on the topic of "what does religion say about ki?" in this thread. General discussion on religion not pertaining to aikido should be discussed elsewhere.

Thanks,

-- Jun

I appologize about the aside, Jun. I assumed a quick question would be ok so long as it didn't go much further, but I'll abstain in the future.
Take care,
Matt

toyamabarnard
08-29-2005, 04:02 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a topic take followers of Aikido so far away from Aikido. Before I begin, I won't push anyone to believe or follow what I do, nor will I fight with anyone over their beliefs.

Ki or Chi, the "translation" of this concept in to English as a word means energy or power. I find it difficult to use these words to explain the concept of this force. I understand Ki as the "energy" all around us. I believe this is the "energy" in us, around us, in all things and connecting all things. There is positive Ki and negative Ki (good and bad Ki if you will).

Religion is a set of beliefs. Whatever the religion may be, each delivers it's followers things to believe in and ways or ideas to live by, usually rules to better live in harmony with the world and our fellow man (but then again, so does Aikido).

I believe that the two can be placed hand in hand in just about any religion. As a Christian couldn't the force sometimes called "Ki" actually be the presence or spirit of Christ I feel all around me and through me. I believe that both the concepts of religion and Ki require faith. You can practice religion and go to the places of worship and never believe because you've never "felt" your God or Spirits. I also believe you can practice cultivating you Ki and train to use positive Ki, but you will not gain the concept untill you have "felt" it. Both are things you can explain, but neither are things that can be taught. As for religion and Ki, I ask "What does your religion say about the energy, power, or forces around us?".

It is my oppinion that harvesting positive (good) Ki and harvesting positive relations with the world around us (from a religious perspective) are similar in nature. Both require us to take a look at who we are and how we do things and strive for a better relation with everything. Boiled down to crude fundamentals, I believe this is the basis of our Aikido as well.

Aikido has had a dramatically positive influence on my life and has helped me to better understand, or at least look deeper in to many aspects including religion. Again these are just my views and opinions, stripped down to keep it simple as they may be. Thank you for taking the time to read them.

Orobbin
08-30-2005, 01:53 AM
Answering the question at hand (Finally)

well supposedly the last words ever found form jesus christ said:
"Chop a pile of wood and I will be there, lift a stone and I will be there, people should not spend there time worshipping me in churches, The churches are in every human being"

What I believe he meant was that the energy of life is everywhere and in everything, the place for prayer is in ourselves and salvation can be found within our spirits.

He was just touching on enlightenment, nothing more.

To answer the question of the person who wanted to know where our energy goes when we die,
I believe that our spirits go to a place I have become acustomed to calling the source this place has never existed thus can never be destroyed and it is the place that we go when being prepared for rebirth, I believe from what I have gathered that the spirit is our ki and through meditational practices energy can be manipulated and used in different ways like in the form of aikido...
zen bhuddism I think has the strongest ties to my philosophy :)

jeff.
08-30-2005, 11:22 AM
There is positive Ki and negative Ki (good and bad Ki if you will).

could you flesh this out a bit more? my understanding of ki/chi (deriving from what i've read) is that ki itself is the energy of harmony (what we would call aiki). and this sense of harmony in a lower state separates into "heavy ki" and "light ki" (which can be understood as positive and negative, but not in the ethical or moral sense, but more in the, say, electronic sense). and sense we have a tendency toward heavy ki, we need to concentrate on light ki in order to acheive "aiki". once acheived, from what i understand, we see that the dualistic conception of ki was just a way of conceiving of experience, but has no factual basis.

((this actually relates, methinks, to st augustine's argument that, in the end, only the light of god exists, and everything exists within that light... that evil has no being, but is merely a way of understanding true being in a relational way while we are trapped in the illusion of dualistic thinking. taoists argue much the same when they ultimately deny that tao is dualistic. saying, instead that yin and yang are just relational aspects of one thing, tao (aka chi), that have no actual being in and of themselves. which is related to the taoist notion of "evil"... that is: that evil is merely imbalance, or the will/tendency toward imbalance. which must be confronted with balance, or the will/tendency toward balance. but that, in the end, evil has no being. that is: it does not, ultimately, exist.))

i've never seen ki conceived in a good/bad duality. that is: i've never seen the notion that there is "bad" (or, i suppose evil) ki. so, if you've got the time, play with this a bit more. and include any references you might have so i can look them up and think about it more. thanks!!

as to the relationship with aikido... i can't speak for anyone else, but these issues are instrinsically related to my understanding and practice of aikido. that is: i would argue that osensei (as evidenced in his talks) intended aikido to include discussions of philosophy and theology, as well as science, etc. (i.e. he included "deep learning" as one of his two wheels, along with training, in the vehicle of budo). this is one of the many things that drew me to aikido.

toyamabarnard
08-30-2005, 02:08 PM
Sorry about the explanation Jeff. I was trying to keep it as basic as possible. I'll try to clear this up a bit.

"my understanding of ki/chi (deriving from what I've read) is that ki itself is the energy of harmony (what we would call aiki)."

My perspective to English: Do Way or The Way (the path), Ki Energy or power (the energy of the universe) Ai Harmony (also defined as Love in some Japanese to English dictionaries). I always understood Aikido to be the way of the power of harmony, and therefore Aiki to be the power of harmony (or more aptly, the path of striving to achieve harmony with Ki, or harmony with the force that drives the universe). For me this involves way less technical (body) training than it does mental and spiritual. A better way to understand myself and my relationship to the world if you will.

Using this line of thinking, when I refer to "good and bad" Ki it is not my intent to say "good or evil" (as I believe good and evil reside in men, not in Ki it's self), but more of "helpful or harmful" Ki. I will try to give some examples of my thoughts: if we believe (or if I do :) ) Ki is everywhere and in everything then the breath in my body now has "negative" Ki and must be removed after expelling this I intake fresh air containing "positive" Ki, plants on the other hand take in my exhaled breath (my negative Ki) as positive to survive and in turn give off their "negative" Ki as Oxygen (my positive Ki). On a hot day cool water splashed on me has "positive" Ki, on a very cold day that same water has "negative" Ki (of course this Ki is not only the waters, but a combination with the weathers Ki, which is a combination of the Earths Ki with that of the rest of the universe :freaky: ). It is my understanding that Ki (or what we are referring to as Ki) travels along certain paths in the body and that if these paths are not "in alignment" as they should be there can be pain or illness (like a kink in a hose that blocks the water flow). I assume this would also mean that if the energy that would be positive for one part of me becomes directed to another part this could become negative Ki and could cause harm (like plugging an American appliance in in Europe :p ). An ocean wave is perceived as a beautiful calming thing, a Tsunami is viewed as a catastrophe, the same Ki drives the waves, but in different ways. There is an exchange in energy in all of these things, some have what we would perceive as "positive" effects and other's we perceive as "negative".

With Ki a part of everything and everything a part of Ki this becomes very difficult to break down in to words. These can not be defined as good or evil they are just parts of nature. Everything has Ki and is part of Ki, but for "harmony" to exist this Ki must be the right type and in the right order order. If we think of Ki as the rippling effects of drops on the surface of a clear pond we can see that the ripples effect each other, some flowing in harmony some disrupting other ripples. And to try and keep on the post topic, I believe that this is the very nature of "Ki" with any religion.

I'm afraid I'm at work and have no books with me, but I will try to provide some sources later in the post. Please understand that this is me trying to break things down to "simple". Also, these are only my opinions and views and PLEASE remember that I claim no ancient wisdom (or new wisdom for that matter :rolleyes: ) and do not consider myself a scholar. These are things I reflect on and should be reflected on by all of us in our own way. Thank you for taking the time to read.

toyamabarnard
08-30-2005, 02:52 PM
Hi everyone me again (sorry). As I re read what i had just written I started to reflect on it some (not exactly what i should be doing at work but....). If Aiki is the power of harmony and Kiai is disrupting someones harmony with the power of Ki in the form of a shout, and we can "feel" negative feelings coming from a person (anger, hate etc...) or positive (love, happiness). If people can project their Wa, could this force be deemed as "good or evil" Ki? And following this line (and to finally be on the subject of the post) could the "presence of God" be good Ki and the "feeling the devil" be "evil" Ki? or are some "forces" simply projected a certain way or picked up by our "receptors" a certain way? I know this is contradictory to what I just posted, but there it is anyways.

I don't have any answers on these and could be way off base. Just random thoughts that found their way in. I'll be pondering this myself for a while now and would love to hear anyones thoughts on this.

Chris Li
08-30-2005, 03:29 PM
My perspective to English: Do Way or The Way (the path), Ki Energy or power (the energy of the universe) Ai Harmony (also defined as Love in some Japanese to English dictionaries).

The character "ai" doesn't really mean "harmony" there are other words in Japanese that would be used for that. A better translation would be "meeting" or "fitting together", which is similar, but not quite the same. In any case "Aikido" isn't threee words ("ai"+"ki"+"do"), but two - "aiki" + "do" which changes things a little bit.

Also, "ai" as in Aikido is never defined as "love" in any dictionary. Morihei Ueshiba used to talk about "ai" as in "love", but he was making a kind of a pun on a different character with the same pronunciation.

Best,

Chris

toyamabarnard
08-30-2005, 05:11 PM
Please excuse me, but I must disagree with the last post from you Christopher. Here on Aikiweb in articles / general / Memoir of the Master (quotes from the founder) the very first quote is:

'As ai (harmony) is common with ai (love), I decided to name my unique budo Aikido, although the word "aiki" is an old one. The word which was used by the warriors in the past is fundamentally different from that of mine."

But again these are just my views and this doesn't make them right as much as I may like it :)

Thanks
Brian

Chris Li
08-30-2005, 05:16 PM
Please excuse me, but I must disagree with the last post from you Christopher. Here on Aikiweb in articles / general / Memoir of the Master (quotes from the founder) the very first quote is:

'As ai (harmony) is common with ai (love), I decided to name my unique budo Aikido, although the word "aiki" is an old one. The word which was used by the warriors in the past is fundamentally different from that of mine."

But again these are just my views and this doesn't make them right as much as I may like it :)

Thanks
Brian

He's talking about two different characters for "ai". In other words, it's a kind of a pun in order to make a point. You can check out the original Japanese in "Take Musu Aiki" for reference.

Best,

Chris

jeff.
08-31-2005, 01:09 PM
thanks for your notes brian. it certainly clears things up a bit. and i particularly agree with your statements on "with ki a part of everything...", because for me this indicates a more subjective understanding of how we feel. that is: a tsunami is certainly a disaster, and in this sense "negative" for many people. but it also has a purification potential, in revitalizing dead spaces in the ocean, infusing them with new water, and in this sense "positive" for the local fish, and anyone who must eat or make their living from the ocean. in that way, "positive" and "negative" or a matter of momentary prejudice, but do not necessarily carry with them a perminant or universal sense for any phenomena. in fact, i suppose we can understand any activity in this way as a balancing effect, perhaps a manifestation of "aiki", eh? :)

in regards to your second note: that would make a lot of sense, at least experientially. that is: in explaining how we get to concepts like "the devil" in trying to explain an expeirence of negativity.

but i would argue that this doesn't show, necessarily, the concrete existence of "evil", per se, but rather the potential to use one's skills for what we could call "evil". if someone is actually coming to kill me for no reason, we could difine this as evil. and the feeling thru ki i would get would certainly be negative. but i would think it was his or her action that is, in a sense, "evil", not his/her ki itself.

fun fun

Mark Uttech
09-11-2005, 07:17 PM
ki is not the mundane

JohnDavis
09-12-2008, 08:17 PM
Wow, this is certainly a well discussed thread! I'm not sure I'm adding anything here. But here goes anyway. Ki has been discussed far and wide since I first learned of it. But purists would say that only when the term Ki(tm) is used, is Ki actually being discussed. But the question is what does religion say about it.
Well, to be very literal here, we are only talking about Shinto and Buddhism, since these are the religions which formed the culture that coined the expression. I am told that in modern Japanese, Ki simply means "energy" of all forms. That it is in Medieval Japanese that Ki means "life force" as is depicted in the pictograph :ki: . But what does that mean today in the West? Not much, really as we have no equivalent concept of a universal life force in our socio-religious conscious. For over 2000 years we have thought, taught and practiced a deity centered religion of one sort or another. The closest thing we have to such a "force" is the Holy Spirit. Now if we think that perhaps the atheistic Buddhists sensed this Spirit, but could not name it, yadda, yadda, yadda. You know the argument. They tried to comprehend the universal, infinite with finite minds. Probably so...But I have to wonder...

So, as a practicing Roman Catholic who is in training to be a lay minister and teacher, I can say that this branch of Christianity says that it is yet another bit of evidence of God's wonderful creation. Now some protestant fundamentalists will say that it is just "the devil". That it doesn't exist. Oddly, my first instructor was a deacon in one of those churches. Um, I'm a member of the Ki Society. No, we accept this as just another indication of the "finger of God" This goes along with the notion of the Quantum Zero Point Field. It is just the residual of the Holy Spirit's operation in creation.

DISCLAIMER:
I am not an official spokesperson for the Roman Catholic Church and what I say should not be interpreted as dogma or official church doctrine. I have spoken to clergy about ki and those who have an opinion have no problem with it. Of course, like all organizations, there are variations of opinion among clergy about things not set in doctrine.

jennifer paige smith
09-13-2008, 12:41 PM
. But what does that mean today in the West? Not much, really as we have no equivalent concept of a universal life force in our socio-religious conscious. For over 2000 years we have thought, taught and practiced a deity centered religion of one sort or another.


As an Indian once said, "What do you mean WE, paleface?"
LOL

gdandscompserv
09-13-2008, 01:17 PM
Well, to be very literal here, we are only talking about Shinto and Buddhism, since these are the religions which formed the culture that coined the expression.
Don't forget the Chinese.:D

JohnDavis
09-13-2008, 01:37 PM
Ok, ya both got me there. LOL, I meant the European and White Eye Americans. :)

As to the Chinese, yeah they taught the Japanese a language and their Chi became the Japanese Ki. Also, Zen seems to be a conflux of Buddhsim and Taoism. They call it Ch'uan, the Koreans Soen and the Japanese, Zen. So I meant no disrespect to them either...But Ki is a Japanese word and as used today in Aikido a Japanese concept...

jennifer paige smith
09-13-2008, 02:29 PM
Ok, ya both got me there. LOL, I meant the European and White Eye Americans. :)

As to the Chinese, yeah they taught the Japanese a language and their Chi became the Japanese Ki. Also, Zen seems to be a conflux of Buddhsim and Taoism. They call it Ch'uan, the Koreans Soen and the Japanese, Zen. So I meant no disrespect to them either...But Ki is a Japanese word and as used today in Aikido a Japanese concept...

Nice 'get'.;)

Humor is Key!

Best,
jen

JohnDavis
09-13-2008, 02:54 PM
Yes, humor. That is why Aikdo is one of the joys in my life! I've seen video of me flying through the air and landing in a heap on the floor! Shame they are not on the internet! :D

Diane Stevenson
09-13-2008, 04:09 PM
Ok, I'll weigh in on this question. Not because I have a real clear understanding of Ki, though I have clearly experienced and seek to develope a control of it, but because my first "black belt" is in Christianity ( at least the protestant version :D )

The place I start is with Augustine, who maintained that "all truth is God's truth". The thing is, there's a whole lot of reality out there that is not addressed by Christian revelation (scriptures, prophets, apostles, Jesus). So when evaluating claims about reality/truth on subjects that really aren't within the scope of the Bible, the question we christians need to ask is not is it included, but is it contradicted or is it consistant with what we already know to be true.

I do have a sense that Ki is sort of related to the physical reality of a thing (rocks have ki), but my ki also seems to respond to my conscious will or intention. I do think this ability to manipulate ki is a function of humans being both physical and spiritual beings. It may be sort of the "interface", if you will, where our two natures blend. Probably related to what the soul is. Within the western intellectual science oriented ways of thinking about and exploring reality, we are so loced into a materialistic/mechanistic worldview, we really have just ignored this sort of thinking/exploration as fairy tale/psycho stuff.

I guess that really the way to answere your question is to at least delineate what Ki is NOT.

What Ki is not (from a Christian perspective).
Since humans who do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus and further acknowledge him as Master are described by scripture as "dead" spiritually (by their choice they isolate themselves from the ultimate and only source of life), I don't think we can call ki spiritual life -- it is a phenomenon attributed to things that are clearly dead (mineral outcroppings) and anyone can experience it.

Ki is most definitly NOT the Holy Spirit, as we have been talking about an inanimate force that we are working on controlling in our practice. First of all, the Holy Spirit is a PERSON, not a thing or a force. Ok, this gets into the triune neature of God which is a complex idea. I mean if quantum mechanics makes your head spin, this is even deeper and harder to wrap your head around. And if controlling ki was anything remotely related to trying to control the Holy Spirit /God, I'd be in a whole mess of trouble, cause this is the whole reason sorcery and necromancy etc are totally forbidden.

JohnDavis
09-13-2008, 08:14 PM
Hi Diane,
Great response to this question. I used to be a protestant. An Episcopalian to be exact. I never once heard of Augustine back then. I'm glad protestants are reading the works of the early Church Fathers. I've tried to read his Confessions but had to give it up for other pursuits. I've found Thomas Merton to be far more interesting and enlightening.

Now from my church's prospective, we do not consider any human "dead" as Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was for all humankind. We are particularly careful with regard to the Jews because of our sad history of dealing with them. We even consider it possible for a "righteous non-believer" to get into heaven.

I did not mean to imply that Ki IS

JohnDavis
09-13-2008, 08:21 PM
Oooooops! Daggone message sent itsef...Now where was I? Oh yeah...
I did not mean to imply that Ki IS the Holy Spirit, but it is the residual energy of his work in Creation. It is everywhere in everything. It is even somewhat sentient. Now I know that I am dangerously close to stuff George Lucas trademarked, so I will tread lightly.
I believe that we are the merger of spirit and matter...Our spiritual side, if you will, is in touch with Ki, but our egos (the result of Original Sin) get in our way of feeling and using it. That is why so many sensei speak of letting go and "getting out of the way" of a technique. They mean get your ego out of it.

You didn't say what church denomination you are in or what Aikido school you attend, but keep up the good work in both. I sense that you have learned a lot both in the pew and on the mat. :D

Diane Stevenson
09-13-2008, 09:37 PM
Thanks, John :)

A "residual energy" of the Holy Spirit, huh? hmmm that's an intriguing idea. I'll have to think about that for awhile.

Ya, the whole "spiritually dead" thing does offend a lot of people. But I haven't been able to get away from it scripturally as central: part of the "bad news" that kinda has to preceed the "good news". With the stakes as high as I percieve them to be, I'd rather offend than be complicit in someone staying asleep while the room burns around them.

On the other hand, it is extremely important to only give offense on a VERY few points -- actually I can only think of one... And, between you me and the rest of the internet, I am daily thankful that it's not MY job to sort people out.

But now I'm in danger of hijacking this thread. :eek: So, I'll shut up.

Amadeus
09-15-2008, 06:00 PM
The typical western culture have a way of looking at spirit and body as two separate things. So it can be difficult to understand Ki from a western point of view.

A few decades ago the world was flat. Everybody believed the word was flat. Then they sent some chimp in a space shuttle and proved that it was roundish. So the world was round, kool gear.

Now they have been playing with mice to find out why they are depressed. They found something about weak dopamine receptors in their brain. This could conclude with the old "what affects the body affects the mind" thinking, but could also direct to the less western theory where mind and body is just two sides of the same thing. There haven't been sent a depressed chimp into space yet, so until then Ki can be hard to mix with western culture.

I have no problems buying the body and mind as one theory, even I'm a christian. I see Ki as a natural energy of the individual, the same thing we use to walk up the stairs, dogs bark with and Jesus did the Jesus-tricks with (well, natural for him). Generating more of that energy through mental discipline is just channeling hormones and what you ate for lunch. The individual's ability to strengthen it's potential.

In a way nothing spiritual at all. In another way every movement is spiritual.

(btw, I think the real reason those mice was depressed was that crazy scientist experimenting with them, but he had to make up some other theory since he was payed to do it)

JohnDavis
09-15-2008, 07:00 PM
Oh you aren't hijacking anything. This thread is old and very long. :)
I guess if you interpret Scripture literally, then the transition goes missed. Catholics interpret the scripture in the context it was written. Please remember most Old Testament writers did not know of eternal life. Only Abraham, Moses and Elijah were spoken of as being "taken up to heaven by God". We hold that Jesus' sacrifice was for ALL humankind, whether or not they believe in him. But that is an argument for another list. As an intuitive healer and an energy sensitive, I've only met one or two "dead" people. They were suffering from Spiritwrack and were referred to those who could help them.

Ki is real, and however you define it, it works. Both in Aikido and in healing.

JohnDavis
09-15-2008, 07:02 PM
To Tarjei,

Actually it is the mice that are expiramenting on the humans. Everything will become clear when Deep Thought's successor processes the data and discloses the question to the answer of the question of the meaning of life, the universe and everything. :D

jennifer paige smith
09-16-2008, 08:43 PM
To Tarjei,

Actually it is the mice that are expiramenting on the humans. Everything will become clear when Deep Thought's successor processes the data and discloses the question to the answer of the question of the meaning of life, the universe and everything. :D

Ya mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5nMsXg1Lk

mathewjgano
09-17-2008, 03:36 PM
Ya mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5nMsXg1Lk

NARF!

jennifer paige smith
09-20-2008, 04:33 PM
NARF!

POIT!;)

Stefan Stenudd
09-20-2008, 08:07 PM
Of course, :ki: is a Chinese and Japanese term, but its equivalent exists just about everywhere, and in most religions. The Hebrew word is ruach, which can be translated to spirit, from the latin synonym spiritus. The Greeks called it pneuma. And so on.
I made an encyclopedia of ki synonyms. You can find it here:

http://www.qi-energy.info/qi-synonyms.htm

Man seems always to have speculated about some kind of lifeforce, very often - but not always - connected to breath. Probably for a very simple reason: people die if they can't breathe.

Now, Holy Spirit (ruach hakodesh) is a concept with additional meaning. It refers to the spirit of God, and for Christians this is part of the Trinity, indivisible from the Father and the Son. For people of this conviction it is quite necessary to see ki as something completely different.
In biblical times, though, I doubt that people would have made that distinction. To them, all spirit was from God, and still it was present in each and every one, making them able to move about. God blew life into His creatures.
In that perspective, ki and ruach have very much in common.

jennifer paige smith
09-21-2008, 01:01 PM
Funny how when we really get into Ki and cultural distinctions there are more similarities than differences.. Like laughter.

Narf!

Jen

jennifer paige smith
09-21-2008, 01:10 PM
Of course, :ki: is a Chinese and Japanese term, but its equivalent exists just about everywhere, and in most religions.

Now, Holy Spirit (ruach hakodesh) is a concept with additional meaning. It refers to the spirit of God, and for Christians this is part of the Trinity, indivisible from the Father and the Son. For people of this conviction it is quite necessary to see ki as something completely different.
In biblical times, though, I doubt that people would have made that distinction. To them, all spirit was from God, and still it was present in each and every one, making them able to move about. God blew life into His creatures.
In that perspective, ki and ruach have very much in common.

Here's another good one from the Lakota:

ina - mother (used in the context of the dynamic and active power of the earth.)

caelifera
01-20-2009, 03:17 PM
Of course, :ki: is a Chinese and Japanese term, but its equivalent exists just about everywhere, and in most religions. The Hebrew word is ruach, which can be translated to spirit, from the latin synonym spiritus. The Greeks called it pneuma. And so on.
I made an encyclopedia of ki synonyms. You can find it here:

http://www.qi-energy.info/qi-synonyms.htm

Man seems always to have speculated about some kind of lifeforce, very often - but not always - connected to breath. Probably for a very simple reason: people die if they can't breathe.

Now, Holy Spirit (ruach hakodesh) is a concept with additional meaning. It refers to the spirit of God, and for Christians this is part of the Trinity, indivisible from the Father and the Son. For people of this conviction it is quite necessary to see ki as something completely different.
In biblical times, though, I doubt that people would have made that distinction. To them, all spirit was from God, and still it was present in each and every one, making them able to move about. God blew life into His creatures.
In that perspective, ki and ruach have very much in common.

I agree.

And it gets more confusing when you look at the verse in the Bible (typical, I can't remember where:crazy: ) that says one receives the Holy Spirit after they have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

Erick Mead
01-20-2009, 04:08 PM
And it gets more confusing when you look at the verse in the Bible (typical, I can't remember where:crazy: ) that says one receives the Holy Spirit after they have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.And one may legitimately make the argument that this is what O Sensei did, in his own terms -- based on his own testimony --:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=223564&postcount=18

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=222949&postcount=4

earnest aikidoka
02-17-2009, 03:41 AM
the bible says that when God created man, he "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life".

perhaps, that is the "ki" that all martial artists speak of?

( i am just saying, if anyone gets offended, i sincerely apologize.)

brUNO
06-02-2009, 10:04 AM
I was raised in a strong christian household, as well. My father is a missionary, scholar and a very spiritual man. What that has to do with anything is probably less than nothing (other than my education of christianity). When you ask about religion, it seems like what you really want to ask about is christianity. Am I wrong?

Right or wrong, I think religion and martial art have little to do with each other (or should) other than how far you will go in your conflict resolution (ie: will you kill someone, will I skip church for Aikido practice, Is bowing to a picture of O'sensei Idolatry, etc.).

Gaijin (non-Japanese) tend to romanticize the "Ki" in Aikido with spiritual/religious attributes but that isn't correct in this case.

Let's look at the meaning of "Aikido":
:ai: "Ai" can mean: Love, balance, harmony, homeostasis, proper fitting, and much more.

:ki: "Ki" can mean: Spirit, kinetic energy, force, blood flow, the gas that heats your home and much more, also.

:do: "Do" means basically the way or an enlightened path (...another topic, for sure! ;) )

Translation:
:ai: :ki: :do: The way of proper fitting with/to kinetic energy forces.

If someone holds there hand close to your face, you can feel the heat ..that is "Ki". I can feel the "Ki" when my wife comes home from work. You can also feel this "Ki" when someone stares at you with "daggers" from across the room. This is an example of bad or negative "Ki". Is negative Ki spiritual? (Dogs can sense fear, ..fear is also a negative "Ki)

Our bodies run on "Ki." Our brain activates/"fires" our muscles with chemo-electrical impulses that generate a measurable magnetic force field. Our breathing cycles are the "engine" that replenishes the body with oxygen and fuels our cells. Our heart is part of this engine that pumps the fuel to... blah, blah, blah. This is a scientific fact. It happens whether you believe in a God/religion or not.

Developing sensitivity to this energy is a very entailed process or path. Aikido techniques can be performed without the understanding of how this works, to some degree. This is a "dance", if you will, of the timing, movement, and rhythm of Aikido. When you understand how the body works and the relationship of intent, connection, and energy, it works much better. I want the "Much Better."

I won't get too deep into this, but knowing how to cause reactions in the muscles of uke and how to use the stored energy in those muscles to "fire" a recovery motion is using "Ki". It is essential to understanding Aikido. If that conflicts with your religious beliefs, I think you should be true to yourself and do aerobics. Without "Ki", Aikido is just ...."Aido"? (:ai: :do: ):p

Marie Noelle Fequiere
06-02-2009, 12:10 PM
I was also raised in a roman catholic family, and attended a catholic school. My mother's sister is a nun. I know some people who care a lot about their religion and refuse to practice martial arts because they feel that bowing, and ki, and all this metaphysical stuff goes against their faith. It's because they do not understand. The bowing problem is another subject, so let's talk ki. I personally believe that science hasn't yet discovered - and may never will discover - all the secrets of the human creature. What I know for sure is that everything we are capable of, either physically or mentally, was given to us by God. I's still not sure what ki is exactly, but it does no bother me, and it does not interfere with my prayers.
That's my opinion. No, tha'ts my faith.;)

brUNO
06-02-2009, 02:20 PM
Stefan,
I think your response would probably be more accurate in limiting your synonyms to your understanding and research on the chinese term "Qi" and not the application of "Ki" (Japanese) to Aikido.

I made an encyclopedia of ki synonyms.

"Be specific, Bob" (Office Space). You made a list of words that mean the same as "Lifeforce", one of the many translations for the kanji "Qi". You left out the many other things :ki: can mean. Especially in its application to Aikido. This is a very limited spectrum of an Asian concept (with pletheral meanings) and is based on the assumption that "Lifeforce" is the correct translation and application in Aikido.

Truly, "Lifeforce" is ONE translation and application of the kanji, just as "Ai" :ai: can be translated as "Love" or "Harmony." But :ai: can also mean; balance, unity, to become one with, appropriate fitting/meeting... Do you see what I mean?

AND, these 2 kanji :ai: :ki: take on a whole new meaning when paired together. Aiki has many applications in the japanese martial world, not just in Aikido. It can mean 2 swords striking together at the same time and one gives way to the other using that energy to drive the counterattack.

Kinetic Momentum is an another application (again, just ONE) of the same kanji that I think it is more appropriate. I think this is a more practicle and less mystical translation, in a scientific/non-religious application of the kanji in Aikido. You don't have to summon special powers to make Aikido work. You do have to understand; energy, force, inertia, momentum, trajectory, center of gravity, balance, etc, to make Aikido work. If not, then I guess Aikido IS a religion. (just joking)

A point of history that might be interesting is that Aikido was founded @ circa 1942. Post war Japan was very limited to Martial Arts practice and most ryu were banned, dissolved, or they retreated into secret practice. So what do you do to keep your martial art (distilled from ancient Daitoryu) from being banned?
""Oh, this? Uh, it's :ai: :ki: :do: "The Way of Peace and Harmony" let us demonstrate."" ""Well, that doesn't sound too threatening, does it? It can't be too dangerous with a name like that, you may continue your practice, if you show us how to do it.""

I think it is a two-edged sword that served an appropriate purpose in a specific time.

Of course, your application suits your purpose just as much as my view serves mine. It's relative to the beholder, I just wanted to make the distinction and clarification. 5 blind men and the elephant, I guess.


Wow, I just read my post up above and I guess I was a little redundant, uh? Sorry gang.

Chris Li
06-02-2009, 02:35 PM
A point of history that might be interesting is that Aikido was founded @ circa 1942. Post war Japan was very limited to Martial Arts practice and most ryu were banned, dissolved, or they retreated into secret practice. So what do you do to keep your martial art (distilled from ancient Daitoryu) from being banned?
""Oh, this? Uh, it's :ai: :ki: :do: "The Way of Peace and Harmony" let us demonstrate."" ""Well, that doesn't sound too threatening, does it? It can't be too dangerous with a name like that, you may continue your practice, if you show us how to do it.""

The name "Aikido" was adopted to conform to the pre-war Dai Nihon Butokukai guidelines - 1942 was well before the war ended.

In any case there was never a general ban on martial arts post-war Japan, that's a common misconception. There was a prohibition against martial arts training as part of school curriculum, that's all. Of course, a lot of people were too busy looking for food to think about training in the years immediately following the war.

Best,

Chris

bulevardi
03-17-2010, 08:03 AM
but i was just thinking that ki is kind of a complicated subject and i was also thinking that most christians would get upset with people if they said that ki was real. are there any christians out there that could share their veiws???

I get upset when a christian claims his God is real.
One who believes in God, already lost his mind in this reality.

Anyway, what does the Scientology church say about Ki?