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Aran Bright
03-30-2005, 05:46 PM
Everytime I speak to someone who trains in bagua and mention I do Aikido they respond "o'sensei got his foot work from ba-gua when he travelled through manchuria"

Anyone able shed any light on this?

Thanks,

akiy
03-30-2005, 06:06 PM
Here are Ellis Amdur's thoughts on the subject (quoted by Chris Li):

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=79467#post79467

More interesting thoughts in that thread as well as this one (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2098).

-- Jun

xuzen
04-02-2005, 12:05 AM
Hello practitioners,

A quick question to aikido practitioner who also practices Chinese MA.

If in a hypothetical situation where we are forced to compartmentalize the various JMA, I hyperpostulate that Judo in the spectrum of JMA is as "Shuai Jiao" in CMA; and Aikido is as "Chin-Na" in CMA. Any thoughts or comments?

Boon.

Mike Sigman
04-02-2005, 08:33 AM
Hello practitioners,

A quick question to aikido practitioner who also practices Chinese MA.

If in a hypothetical situation where we are forced to compartmentalize the various JMA, I hyperpostulate that Judo in the spectrum of JMA is as "Shuai Jiao" in CMA; and Aikido is as "Chin-Na" in CMA. Any thoughts or comments? It's tricky to try to do one-to-one comparisons like that. "Shuai Jiao" is one of the oldest of Chinese martial arts and a lot of judo people have been led to believe that it's not related to judo, but Chinese shuai jiao people say that judo is definitely part of shuai jiao and that it came via Chen Yuan Yun in the 1600's. I'll let the Japanophiles and the Sinophiles fight it out, but having done judo for a goodly while and having watched a lot of shuai jiao, there's too many coincidences, throws, uniforms, etc., to just overlook and say "synchronicity". The problem is that just like most wrestling, etc., now has some judo throws in it, most Chinese martial arts have aspects of shuai jiao in them. So it's sort of hard to say this is this and that is that and 100% cover the topic. All those caveats being said, yes, shuai jiao and judo are roughly the same thing.

"Chin na" roughly means "joint locks". Again, every martial style incorporates a fair amount of qinna (same word, current correct spelling, same pronunciation), but in this case it's pretty accurate to say that there is no martial art known as "joint locks", it's more of a standard skill in all martial arts.

The closest thing to Aikido is indeed Bagua. Whether there is a viable connection is easy to argue from either side. Baguazhang was pretty popular in the late 1800's- early 1900's as the big deal to know and I'd be surprised if the popularity didn't force a certain amount of effect in Japanese martial arts. No one really knows exactly where Bagua came from since the "founder" attributed what he knew to some obscure teachings, yada, yada, but there are several Chinese styles that it probably could have derived from and they have "linear" practices that are very much like Aikido (i.e., the "circle walking", etc., is not necessarily a part of Bagua). Whether there is a provable link between the two is doubtful, given the information we have, but it's safe to say that they do indeed have a number of common characteristics... but they're not exactly like each other by a long shot.

Bagua is famous for its evasion. It's very difficult to get your hands on or to punch a good Bagua person. They use a lot of locks and throws. They're also known to be able to hit extremely hard, as are all the so-called "internal" martial arts. Leg strength is one of the prime goals of a Bagua practitioner. Extraordinary leg strength. Stories of Bagua people breaking other peoples' legs between their own legs are hot discussions. It's generally said that a truly good Bagua practitioner cannot be wrestled to the ground because they're immovable on their legs. And so on. Think of their circle walking as actually the same thing as standing meditation done moving.

A Quick FWIW

Mike

Charles Hill
04-03-2005, 04:13 AM
Hi,

Can anyone recommend a good dvd/video so I can see what Bagua looks like?

Charles

Mike Sigman
04-03-2005, 11:20 AM
Can anyone recommend a good dvd/video so I can see what Bagua looks like? There's an old movie (circa 1980's) called "The Honor of Dong Fang-Xu" (also called "Pride's Deadly Fury") that is fun to watch because it includes lots of Bagua, Shaolin, Eagle Claw, etc., with a fair amount of Bagua training and applications. There's a little bit of hokiness in it, but not enough to offest the fact that they show a lot of the training things, etc., for those curious. I just located it at:

http://www.rarekungfumovies.com/film1778.html

FWIW

Mike

debigthump
04-04-2005, 01:43 AM
Humm Ba-gau ,,, i have heard several theories about its back ground,One is is a derivative of an old style called the forgotten (art or style one of the two)where the practitioner would train for many years and never write it down,and even work diligently to forget he ever learned the system at all.
Second is,the present master (who's name i cant remember)learned the system from an old man who lived on a mountain taught it to him,which possibly could be linked to one of these "Forgotten"practitioners.
Its movements are said to be reminiscent of Dragons swimming,(automatic movement)where after a time the practitioners body seems to start moving by its self in an unnatural fashion(attributed to chi or ki flow).
There are 3 internal arts that hold the fully internal concept ti-chi,hi-sing,and bague
CONCEPTS:

hi-sing-is a mountain and cant be moved
ti-chi - is a blade of grass that moves in the breeze
bague-is spring steel that bends but snaps back with force

i hope this is useful?
i know a little more if needed.