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Ron Tisdale
03-30-2005, 11:13 AM
Kisshomaru Ueshiba had a "volunteer" at a demonstration in Hawaii whom he asked to "throw a punch". The volunteer was a trained martial artist and threw a series of punches far too rapid and erratic for Ueshiba to grasp or anything so he finally waved the guy away and asked for another volunteer.

Hi Mike,

I've seen you tell this story before, and I still have the same problems with it, to wit;

1) *A* punch was asked for not a *series* of punches

2) this was a demonstration, with a specific teaching goal in mind...multiple strikes probably didn't help to illustrate the principle at hand

3) this was NOT a challenge...it was a demonstration...you are inferring something completely out of context

I find the use of this example out of context to be somewhat disengenuous. I have it on good info that while the 2nd Doshu may not have been the best in the world, in an art passed down within a family, that is not unusual. And more importantly, I have it on very good information that the 2nd Doshu was more than quite capable. Despite what an unknown source might say about his experience in trying to 'up the anti' at a public demonstration.

Ron (rudeness has its own rewards...I know instructors that would clean someone's clock for that kind of rude behavior)

Mike Sigman
03-30-2005, 11:37 AM
Ron (rudeness has its own rewards...I know instructors that would clean someone's clock for that kind of rude behavior) I don't want to get off the point by discussing rudeness, Ron. I thought it was rude, too. The point is that too many people in Aikido are used to linear, stylized, and predictable attacks. I watched a video the other day of someone who has been recommended as "very good" by some people on this list. He looked "very good" to me, also, but I could only judge him from an Aikido perspective. He was polished and very fast and very effective.... but he also has trained himself against exactly those linear, non-feinting, cooperative attacks which he handled. I don't have a clue how he'd do in a real fight against an equally large, strong, and experienced fighter from another system. I suspect he'd be very uncomfortable without the standard attacks, though.... and that was the point.

And BTW, if by not repeating back the standard dogma within Aikido about Aikido I'm breaking taboos, as seems to be the case with a few people, please bear in mind that I'm used to clinical discussions about martial arts that don't involve dogma...I'm not trying to offend or disparage by not repeating the legends suitably. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale
03-30-2005, 11:54 AM
:) Not asking for legends...just noting an inconsistancy in the logic between the story at hand, and what *it seems* we should take away from it.

I myself would hesitate to say what attacks someone is familiar with. For instance, a shotokan BB who is a pretty darn good fighter once made the decision to try my own teacher in this fashion...he regretted the decision, and decided not to try it again. :) He's now 3rd Dan in aikido. Worked out well all around...because the teacher in question has a big heart, and didn't put him in the hospital. What I'm suggesting is the possibility that K. Ueshiba also had a big heart... :)

Ron

Mike Sigman
03-30-2005, 11:56 AM
I've seen you tell this story before, and I still have the same problems with it, to wit;

1) *A* punch was asked for not a *series* of punches Let me clarify "series", Ron. A punch was asked for. Tom punched and withdrew so fast that K.U. couldn't grab it. He threw another; same outcome. He threw a 3rd one; same outcome. That's the "series".

Mike

Mike Sigman
03-30-2005, 12:00 PM
:) Not asking for legends...just noting an inconsistancy in the logic between the story at hand, and what *it seems* we should take away from it. I already posted it.... your interpretation of "series" missed the point. K.U. was used to punches of a different sort. I myself would hesitate to say what attacks someone is familiar with. For instance, a shotokan BB who is a pretty darn good fighter once made the decision to try my own teacher in this fashion...he regretted the decision, and decided not to try it again. :) He's now 3rd Dan in aikido. Worked out well all around...because the teacher in question has a big heart, and didn't put him in the hospital. What I'm suggesting is the possibility that K. Ueshiba also had a big heart... :) Groan. Not *another* "blackbelt in karate get creamed" story. :) I've got plenty of them. So does everyone else. Why do we hear so many "blackbelt in karate" stories??? I think it's stylic discrimination! ;)

Mike

Ron Tisdale
03-30-2005, 12:05 PM
:) You skipped the important part..." a pretty darn good fighter".

We can pick at each other all day over this one...my point being that the story you gave doesn't quite fit the logic in the conversation.

Ron (no biggie)

Oh and its no different from the 'experienced martial artist shows up X stories...is it??

RT

rob_liberti
03-30-2005, 01:14 PM
When you are holding a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

Mike Sigman
03-30-2005, 04:29 PM
When you are holding a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

When you are a nail, you think everyone is trying to hammer you. Oops... that belonged on the "Equality" thread. ;)

Mike

Mike Sigman
03-30-2005, 04:31 PM
As long as we've got this neat thread courtesy of Jun, maybe we should talk about atemi. I've been out of it too long.... what's a list of accepted "hits" that are considered atemi?

Mike

Chris Birke
03-30-2005, 09:37 PM
I think one of Aikido's greatest stregnths is how it illustrates atemi and kuzushi.

I see systema, and I detect a lot of bullshit - but I also see the same great illustration of kuzushi and atemi. I havn't gotten the chance to expirence it first hand though, and I've only seen it in training context, never in any sort of fight (which makes it pretty difficult for me to judge).

There is no particular strike (though some are more widely applicable than others) ; instead it is the contexts that are important.

What I find most often defines it is striking when you know what the other person is thinking, and striking in such a way as their thoughts dictate.

So, with regard to the story, maybe Osensi just thought the other guy was an asshole and moved along because he wouldn't have been a good illustration?

My expirence is pretty limited in the long run though. =/

NagaBaba
03-30-2005, 10:17 PM
A *series* of punches from experienced fighter is a very difficult to deal with. One need a special training for this.

creinig
03-31-2005, 01:21 AM
As long as we've got this neat thread courtesy of Jun, maybe we should talk about atemi. I've been out of it too long.... what's a list of accepted "hits" that are considered atemi?

see "Total Aikido", p. 24 ;)

Mike Sigman
03-31-2005, 07:17 AM
see "Total Aikido", p. 24 ;) I like that description, Christian. It mentions focused power used with any part of the body. My specialty. :^) But worse than they imagine, I think. I was afraid to go to some dojo sometime and have them cry "foul" about the things I do for atemi.

Thanks.

Mike

SeiserL
03-31-2005, 08:59 AM
IMHO, one of the major criticisms of Aikido is its inability to utilize and train with and against effective and efficient strikes/punches/atemi.

Yet, if one pays attention to the angle of attack instead of the type of attack, it is easier to make an application.

On a few occasions, we have trained off a flow or series of strikes, by blending/blocking/evading a few strikes and then taking one into the technique. Worked well.

Jory Boling
03-31-2005, 10:35 AM
I like that description, Christian. It mentions focused power used with any part of the body. My specialty. :^) But worse than they imagine, I think. I was afraid to go to some dojo sometime and have them cry "foul" about the things I do for atemi.

Thanks.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I don't have that book and am relatively new to aikido. Can you elaborate about things you do for atemi? like a strike witih a shoulder or a head butt?

thanks
Jory

Mike Sigman
03-31-2005, 11:02 AM
Hi Mike,
I don't have that book and am relatively new to aikido. Can you elaborate about things you do for atemi? like a strike witih a shoulder or a head butt? It's tricky in Aikido (and other martial arts, often) about "what is allowed", even though common sense would tell you that you need to learn to respond to all things if you're going to fight. Notice that there are a number of set "attacks", like tsuki, shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, etc. The attack is called for and expected. There is a set way to respond in order to "do the technique correctly" in most dojo's. So if you do something outside of those bounds, many people will take umbrage.... i.e., whatever the lip-service may be, you're really not "allowed" or encouraged to do actions which don't conform to the expected protocols. On the whole, this is good for training, but there needs to be (if Aikido is going to ever be used as an effective martial art) some way to practice a wider variety of techniques, and this includes various atemi's.

My general approach to atemi is that "the body is your hand". You should be able to strike extremely hard with your hand, elbow, shoulder, back, chest, head, hip, knee, foot, etc., using the same kokyu power that is in all the throws (albeit I use an additive component to increase that power and shorten the impact time). If I went into most dojo's and did something like that in practice, I'd be ushered out the door with admonitions about "harmony", "Aikido is the dance of the souls", etc. ;) "Harmony" is the pigeon-Japanese word for "do it our way", all too often.

FWIW

Mike

Ron Tisdale
03-31-2005, 11:28 AM
If I went into most dojo's and did something like that in practice, I'd be ushered out the door
Actually, only if you did it at an inappropriate time. I've been in quite a few dojo that allow atemi, from no contact to fairly rigorous contact as long as its controlled enough to prevent large amounts of broken uke.

with admonitions about "harmony", "Aikido is the dance of the souls", etc.

Aikido and Dance are not two words I have heard together in any of the dojo (yosh and otherwise) that I regularly visit...

"Harmony" is the pigeon-Japanese word for "do it our way", all too often

I think you meant 'pidgen'... :) And all too often, you're correct...

Ron

Adam Alexander
03-31-2005, 01:38 PM
Aikido and Dance are not two words I have heard together in any of the dojo (yosh and otherwise) that I regularly visit...

Maybe try Shioda's books.

Ron Tisdale
03-31-2005, 01:39 PM
Maybe try Shioda's books.

:) Books are not dojo...big difference...

RT

Adam Alexander
03-31-2005, 01:54 PM
:) Books are not dojo...big difference...

RT

No doubt, no doubt. However, I figured Shioda's opinion was a pretty solid reference.

Bodhi
03-31-2005, 02:12 PM
It's tricky in Aikido (and other martial arts, often) about "what is allowed", even though common sense would tell you that you need to learn to respond to all things if you're going to fight. Notice that there are a number of set "attacks", like tsuki, shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, etc. The attack is called for and expected. There is a set way to respond in order to "do the technique correctly" in most dojo's

Mike,
this is exactly why Aikido as well as other traditional training systems will continue to have trouble with todays real fighters as well as with a uncooperative attacker or attackers armed or unarmed.
Also, if they do practice striking it is usually done in a half hearted prearranged telegraphed mannor, everything is expected or done with their idea of what real intensity is. Have them try adding in broken rhythm, half beats, 4-5 move hand/foot combinations, knees, elbows, headbutts, and eyegoudges. Do that exact same thing with a knife or stick added in, using everything described above including grappling and ground work with and without a blade, then pay attention to how an aikido man or woman will deal with it. When you put that aliveness into your training you will always get different results than when your training cooperatively. Havent you ever wondered why all the real fights you see involving martial artists and anyone else dont look very appealing to the eye? Its because the techniques done under pressure in a high intensity uncooperative situation are different than what your used to, your takin out of your confort zone because that is not how you have trained In a real world violent encounter you will not be able to rely on fine motor skills, you will not be able to catch punches unless you just get lucky, and you will not be able to rely on a joint lock or a throw! So you cut out all the crap, rely on gross motor skills, and train for the worst scenerios. Most martial artists dont do that, some dont even want to do that, its a personal choice. But i promise you from years of experience in real life situations, you had better train with the worst case scenerios in mind because how you train is whats going to dictate what you do for real. I recently had a conversation with a LEO who is an aikido teacher and trains LEO and military agencies. He said that the main reason that some of his aikido tecniques worked was because the person being arrested was only half heartedly resisting him. He told me that in the cases where the person being arrested was actually trying to hurt him, his partner, or someone else, he had to esculate the force continum. Because someone that is truly resisting just wont comply with a joint lock or throw much less when you try to catch their hand out of the air. When you add in adrenaline, determination, pain tolerance etc, the scenerio changes. Thats why you must train how your going to fight, with the worst case scenerio in mind! That can be anything your imagination can dream up, i usually train with the mindset that the attacker is bigger, stronger, faster, meaner, on meth, and knows how to fight. I also imagine there may be more than 1, armed and unarmed in a variety of enviroments. We used to train where we would be doing a ground fighting exercize in class, maybe we were using a knife, maybe not, but at any moment someone else in class could come over at anytime they wanted and jump in on us, attacking whomever they wanted, with or without a blade or stick. When you add exercizes like that, it really changes your mindset about training Try this exercize sometime, run, swim, jump rope, hit a heavybag, do windsprints or ANY cardio exercize for 3 minutes as hard and as fast as you are able, then IMMEDIATLEY have your training partner attack you using whatever means they wish (stick, knife, emptyhand etc) Make sure nothing is prearranged, or telegraphed, have them use combinations, broken rhythm, half beats, stop hits etc. Do this with full intensity, just freakin attack you all out like your the only thing standing between them and their drowning child. Then you may begin to see if your tecniques even come close to maybe working under pressure. I promise you you wont be able to catch that punch and your tecniques wont look as smooth and pretty as they do in your dojo. Sometimes i think people are so amazed with the legends of what the old masters could do that they miss their own truth. A good martial artist once coined it "the classical mess" and said its like swimming on dry land! You will never be able to experience the waters until you get your feet wet, just as someone who has never lived through a violent encounter has no clue about what it takes to survive one.
Forget what may or may not have been long ago, and start training with realism, only then will you get to whats at the heart of your training, or why you even train at all

Ron Tisdale
03-31-2005, 02:22 PM
Reference for what?

If I went into most dojo's and did something like that in practice, I'd be ushered out the door with admonitions about "harmony", "Aikido is the dance of the souls", etc.

Certainly not that...Shioda's books are a much better reference for atemi. I don't think you and Mike are reffering to the same thing.

Speaking of atemi...what about atemi in public demonstrations? From uke or shite/nage? Mike does have a point I suppose in terms of the standardized attacks we see in demonstrations. I think its part of the public image of the art (good or bad is up to the individual I suppose). Aikido is usually presented in a very clean, smooth fashion. A lot of times in freestyle demos you don't see shite using atemi to any large extent. But even an aikidoka of Tohei's status didn't look as good when faced with someone intent on *not* giving the standard attacks. In that particular situation, Tohei was supposedly instructed not to hurt the challenger, so it would seem atemi would be out.

Personally, I think most people in aikido for any substantial period of time are aware that what you see in a demo is not 'real world'...but are we clear enough about that? And what would aikdio demos look like with more use of atemi by shite?

Ellis's statement on atemi = entering on another recent thread might be of interest here...

Ron

Mike Sigman
03-31-2005, 02:34 PM
this is exactly why Aikido as well as other traditional training systems will continue to have trouble with todays real fighters as well as with a uncooperative attacker or attackers armed or unarmed. [[snipsky]] Of course you're mostly right, Jason, and I agree. However, despite the unreality of some classical training systems they will sometimes add some arrows to your quiver that are pretty good. What you said about real fighting is particularly true and I often think that most people who "got in a fight at the bar" don't understand is that usually "the reason you did OK was because he was just as inept as you were". Even in a lot of dojo's, Aikido and otherwise, the reason someone gets known as a "good fighter" is because he's fighting other people with moderate skill level.

I happen to like the idea of Aikido for the same reason I enjoy looking into yiquan, Taiji, Bagua, etc.... the body mechanics and the health benefits. I've already got a lot of fights behind me and I'm interested in the physical training, not the self-defense aspects anymore. However, I know fighting fairly well when I see it, as do other people who have spent a lot of time doing it, and it blows my mind to see some people think that cooperative drills would lead to real fighting skills without having to do anything else.

But hey... don't start confusing some of these discussions with facts, Jason.... it doesn't endear you to people if you tell them the truth is not what they've come to believe. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Mike Sigman
03-31-2005, 02:54 PM
Personally, I think most people in aikido for any substantial period of time are aware that what you see in a demo is not 'real world'...but are we clear enough about that? And what would aikdio demos look like with more use of atemi by shite? Ron, there are tons of dojo's with people who don't have a clue what the "real world" is or what a "real fight" is.... and they simply don't want to know. Aikido is a haven where they don't have to face the real world, in a lot of cases. They consider demo's to BE the real world.

What I was asking was "what are the acceptable 'atemi's' that I can use in say an average dojo nowadays without having to face the ire anc conform-pressure that is so easily generated when you don't "harmonize" in accordance with the accepted protocols? Punch? Side chop? Elbow? Slap? What? In a lot of dojo's I've been in, the only really accepted atemi was a stylized fake fist-punch during irimi on a few select techniques and I was wondering what else was out there.

Regards,

Mike

Bodhi
03-31-2005, 03:08 PM
despite the unreality of some classical training systems they will sometimes add some arrows to your quiver that are pretty good

Very true, whatever has been known to work over and over against a highly motivated resisting attacker should be used.

Even in a lot of dojo's, Aikido and otherwise, the reason someone gets known as a "good fighter" is because he's fighting other people with moderate skill level.

There again, true, u must train with progressive resistance against all types of fighters, weights, sizes, shapes, different systems etc.

I happen to like the idea of Aikido for the same reason I enjoy looking into yiquan, Taiji, Bagua, etc.... the body mechanics and the health benefits. I've already got a lot of fights behind me and I'm interested in the physical training,

Same here, i think certain ideas definatley supplement your training

But hey... don't start confusing some of these discussions with facts, Jason.... it doesn't endear you to people if you tell them the truth is not what they've come to believe.

Boy dont i know it!

I think we should all have a gathering once a year somewhere in the middle of the country. We could all meet eachother, make some new friends, exchange ideas and concepts, and test some theory under different conditions. We could try and get the highest ranking aikidoka to come as well as beginners I know plenty of people from different systems, not to mention law enforcement,military, and just plain old tough street fighters that would be more than willing to help us all in our search for truth regarding what really works in the arts. It would be fun, we could sit around the campfire, cookout, talk, sing songs. What do you all think? Mike i have some people in Durango i know, im in Arizona but ill pprobly be up there sometime this summer, we should definatley hook up and train.

Ron Tisdale
03-31-2005, 03:27 PM
Almost every yoshinkan dojo does the 150 or so basic techniques...each of these has atemi and are standardized. You can find a good sample in almost any of the good yoshinkan texts out there. If you don't block the strike and move, there's a fair chance a yudansha would pop you if you are at an appropriate level for that. Many of the techniques trained outside of the 150 basic techniques will also have atemi.

The atemi most often trained will be the attention punch, a punch with the raised middle knuckle to the short ribs, almost an upper cut kind of punch designed to come in 'under the radar', a sliding backfist which is similar to the previous one. Often instructors will note (and have you try gently) elbow strikes to the ribs while entering and turning for kaitenage or sankajo. I've also been taught some sweeps, a kind of blocking kick to the thigh as uke is coming forward, using the entry as atemi, etc.

At different times, all of these may or may not be acceptable in different ways (like anywhere else). For instance, if I am working with some under 3rd kyu, and I pop them in the nose the third time I do a sankajo entry under an extended arm and cause them to bleed, I'd better be up on my ukemi the next time I'm called up...and my blocking too... :) Its pretty much case by case...I've had classes where the whole point was to get you used to getting hit (and not freaking out). I've also had classes that were all basic movement and rudimentary technique because there were first timers and we didn't want to scare them away the first night.

Aikido technique is generally trained in a kata or kata like form. As a result, people will get upset with you if you deviate from the form in unexpected ways without a prior agreement with your partner, and the understanding of the instructor responsible. Seems reasonable to me...

Ron, there are tons of dojo's with people who don't have a clue what the "real world" is or what a "real fight" is.... and they simply don't want to know. Aikido is a haven where they don't have to face the real world, in a lot of cases. They consider demo's to BE the real world.

Its no more a haven than 90% of the other dojo out there...I'd say of the dojo I've seen overall, only the top 10% of any style are really serious. BJJ and MMA training may be the solid exception. But even there, the serious places place constraints over where, when and how hard striking contact can be. Not to mention the use of protective gear. You can't take all the ills of MA today and drop them in aikido's lap...the problem is much bigger than that...and you know it.



Ron

Bodhi
03-31-2005, 04:08 PM
Here is something i have been involved with http://www.dogbrothers.com/ Take a look at some of the promo clips for a taste of what may be a more realistic approach to training. For day to day training we used no protective equipment but the sticks were padded rattan wich definatley made you remain alert thereby moving towards a more realistic approach. When you train with as few restrictions as possible such as protective gear from time to time, you begin to gain a respect and heightened awareness of your movement, your opponets movement, and what will and wont work under stress. If you always train in a safe haven your technique will never progress beyond a certain point. Keep in mind this is not for everyone, you cannot go into something like this using unrealistic training methods with a less than highly motivated mindset Some of this could definatley be incorporated into Aikido given that flow drills are trained. Several Aikido teachers have found the Filipino arts to supplement their training quite nicely from what ive heard.

Mike Sigman
03-31-2005, 05:08 PM
The atemi most often trained will be the attention punch, a punch with the raised middle knuckle to the short ribs, almost an upper cut kind of punch designed to come in 'under the radar', a sliding backfist which is similar to the previous one. Often instructors will note (and have you try gently) elbow strikes to the ribs while entering and turning for kaitenage or sankajo. I've also been taught some sweeps, a kind of blocking kick to the thigh as uke is coming forward, using the entry as atemi, etc.
Thanks. That's what I was trying to find out. its no more a haven than 90% of the other dojo out there I disagree and so would most people I know. It's second only to Tai Chi, IMO. :) You can't take all the ills of MA today and drop them in aikido's lap...the problem is much bigger than that...and you know it. If you'll look, you'll notice that I'm pretty consistent in saying the realism problems are not just with Aikido, Ron. I spot it in 2 messages earlier, just in a quick glance. Still, I don't want to be put on the defensive, nor should you. The problem is not with Yoshinkan nor is it with the myriad outsiders saying that most Aikido lacks realism... the problem is with the tolerance of those types of Aikido dojos by the Aikido community. You can't be both tolerant of New Age dojo's and irritated at the undeserved reputation of Aikido at the same time, in all fairness. Certainly when people mock the realism of most Taiji I don't disagree... I face facts and voice my irritation at the source, not at the people who are telling the truth and who are often well-intentioned. :)

Mike

Chris Li
03-31-2005, 05:36 PM
I find the use of this example out of context to be somewhat disengenuous. I have it on good info that while the 2nd Doshu may not have been the best in the world, in an art passed down within a family, that is not unusual. And more importantly, I have it on very good information that the 2nd Doshu was more than quite capable. Despite what an unknown source might say about his experience in trying to 'up the anti' at a public demonstration.

In my book, Kisshomaru Ueshiba remains one of the most under-estimated figures around. He was very quiet, even shy - if you passed him in the hall you might miss him, and his technique usually consisted of large, smooth, circular movements with no spectacular slams. Now, there are Aikikai teachers who are known to have scary reputations, but Kisshomaru's nikyo, if you could get him to apply it to you, was something that made them seem pale in comparison. Then you have to think about it - most of the big scary guys in the post-war Aikikai actually came up under Kisshomaru.

There's a good story in "Aikido Ichiro" about how Tadashi Abe underestimated the young Kisshomaru.

Best,

Chris

Ron Tisdale
04-01-2005, 08:04 AM
Hi Chris,

That's the thing...a lot of people never got the chance for the hands on experience in a venue where he 'let it out'. I have much respect for that type of man...kept the dragon under control...and no need to prove himself to others.

Ron

Jory Boling
04-01-2005, 09:00 AM
Right on topic, we focused on what to do against a jab last night. It was definitely valuable to practice against a more realistic attack and to practice more practical applications of aiki. I've found myself frustrated at times when i've focused on defense against the normal range of "traditional" aikido atemi. I just can't imagine many people attacking me with their tekatana.

In lieu of being able to train all the time against more realistic attacks am i right to try to focus on the principles of aiki? I typically treat each technique as a tool to develop some kind of sense of the uke's energy or intent. I occasionally feel i'm just being an idealist but then whenever sensei demonstrates a technique on me, i feel his "power" and become inspired again.

Alfonso
04-01-2005, 11:17 AM
Do you make a distinction between Uke's attack and Atemi?

Adam Alexander
04-01-2005, 01:28 PM
Reference for what?

Use of the word "dance."


Certainly not that...Shioda's books are a much better reference for atemi. I don't think you and Mike are reffering to the same thing.


I was referring to your statement about "Aikido" and "dance" not being used together.

In my eyes, I think Aikido has similarities to dance. When dancing, I send signals through my hands (light pressure) to direct the movement. Also, when dipping, although giving warning, I approach a weak line with a spiral action.

Unfortunately, atemi has never really been as helpful as I'd like when trying to impress a lady:)

Ron Tisdale
04-01-2005, 02:00 PM
On dance, I was thinking last night that professional dancers are some of the toughest SOBs out there...ever see what modern and classical dancers go through in their training??? I couldn't do it, no way Jose...

RT

SeiserL
04-01-2005, 11:02 PM
It's A Lot Like Dancing, An Aikido Journey by Terry Dobson (1993, Frog Ltd. North Atlabtic Books).

xuzen
04-01-2005, 11:52 PM
...<snip>...
Try this exercise sometime, run, swim, jump rope, hit a heavybag, do windsprints or ANY cardio exercise for 3 minutes as hard and as fast as you are able, then IMMEDIATELY have your training partner attack you using whatever means they wish (stick, knife, empty hand etc) ...<snip>... Do this with full intensity, just freaking attack you all out like your the only thing standing between them and their drowning child. Then you may begin to see if your techniques even come close to maybe working under pressure. I promise you you wont be able to catch that punch and your techniques wont look as smooth and pretty as they do in your dojo. ...<snip>...

Dear Jason,

Thanks for your jolt into realism. Although I may not have the opportunity to try and do all the above exercise prior to training... the closest that I have train under duress was when in Jiyu Waza/Randori sensei kept asking ukes after ukes come at me (one on one, fortunately). After the 3rd or 4th uke, and with a time period of probably a few minutes but to me seemed like an eternity, my techniques sure hell doesn't look like any standard aikido. I am aware that it became short with lots of atemi, pushing, shoving and avoidance. I sure hell don't recall doing any of those nice sankajo or yonkajo etc.

I love that experience, it allows me to know myself better i.e., how my body would react when my cognitive brain is not working. Thanks again for your input, Jason.

Domo arigato.

Xu.

Bodhi
04-02-2005, 04:51 AM
Xu, glad to hear your training hard! I love the exercize your talking about, it really helps you learn to relax under pressure, not to mention stripping your technique to the bare essentials and giving you the mindset you need to last (see if you can get your teacher to add in some sticks and training blades with chalked surfaces, it kicks it up a notch, kali style ;) Everything becomes short n sweet when your working from a tired, injured, or multiple opponent situation. I remember certain instances when i had to deal with 2 and 3 people at a time, thanks to the exact same exercize you ve mentioned, i was able to walk away, well actually limp away :uch: Anymore than 2 or 3 attackers and i usually introduced anequalizer :D When your tired, injured, or have multiple opponents, you find out real quick if youve been training right. What you said about getting to know yourself better is sooooo true! When you train hard, with realism, against resisting opponents that are pushing you to your very limits, it makes you dig down deep inside and tap a part of yourself that was put there long ago, and meant for only one thing. :)

With respect
J

Don_Modesto
04-02-2005, 09:21 AM
What I was asking was "what are the acceptable 'atemi's' that I can use in say an average dojo nowadays without having to face the ire anc conform-pressure that is so easily generated when you don't "harmonize" in accordance with the accepted protocols? Punch? Side chop? Elbow? Slap? What? In a lot of dojo's I've been in, the only really accepted atemi was a stylized fake fist-punch during irimi on a few select techniques and I was wondering what else was out there.

Any principle will be interpreted differently in different dojo in different circumstances so perhaps the question is a red herring.

ATEMI is the gerund--"hitting"--for ATERU--"to hit". The elbow, the knee to the groin, etc. are hitting. Folks may not like that in their dojo, but it's a hard point to argue. What follows is that dojo's conventions. Caveat emptor.

More interestingly, Shioda does ATEMI with the UKE's contact on him. UKE's attack impacts and he/she is thrown back.

Also interesting are the iterations of ATEMI beyond the physical, the eye flick or shoulder flinch which affect UKE without contact. I enjoyed Angier setting a paper fan on the bridge of his UKE's nose, e.g.

Mike Sigman
04-02-2005, 09:49 AM
Any principle will be interpreted differently in different dojo in different circumstances so perhaps the question is a red herring.
To atemi, or not to atemi, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The punches and grabs of outrageous technique;
Or to take swing at a sea of uke's,
And by blending, end them: to irimi, to tenkan
No more; and by a nikkyo, to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to; 'Tis a consumation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To pin in ikkyo,
To sankyo, perchance to Tsuki; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that use of atemi, what protests may come. Folks may not like that in their dojo, but it's a hard point to argue. What follows is that dojo's conventions. Caveat emptor. True... and if you don't conform to the unspoken but rigid dojo protocols, you will be made to suffer. Ejected and dejected. More interestingly, Shioda does ATEMI with the UKE's contact on him. UKE's attack impacts and he/she is thrown back. I was gratified to see Shioda to an OK shoulder strike in a randorii on a videoclip. Also interesting are the iterations of ATEMI beyond the physical, the eye flick or shoulder flinch which affect UKE without contact. I enjoyed Angier setting a paper fan on the bridge of his UKE's nose, e.g. There is a discussion in Chinese martial arts about "Lin Kong Jin" which indicates an "empty force", i.e., a force that moves someone without touching. I asked Chen Xiao Wang (the head of Chen style, more or less) about it one day and he said it originally referred to a skill in deliberate movements, fakes, etc., that cause an opponent to move ... a form of control without touching. This term for an ancient skill has been corrupted to mean by the carnival types in martial arts a mental control of someone from a distance. Don't buy what they're selling. ;)

FWIW

Mike

rob_liberti
04-04-2005, 08:39 AM
Right on topic, we focused on what to do against a jab last night.What did you do? I don't like to be at that range because I ismply cannot move my whole body as fast as someone can flck out their arm.

In my dojo, any atemi is a good atemi. The thing is that the rule of the dojo is to be level appropriate. At one point, there was a time when some dojos they didn't actually atemi, but instead would inform you that "you're open". I got such a kick out of that (not literally)! I prefer for the person to just start their atemi and show me. They just need to keep the same speed and intensity we were doing the waza at, and pull the punch or whatever the first couple times. Sometimes you can do something with the atemi, and sometimes you cannot and must change something else much earlier. I think that's much better training.

I feel that every basic wasa has at least one point there there must be a choice to not hit the uke. I would love for someone to list their favorite choicess of targets (that they are not striking) when doing basic waza. One of my friends who is really good at striking, threw someone, and did 3 amazingly fast punches at them while they were in the air. (He made sure not to really hit them, but he was clearly aiming and choing not to make connection. That was awesome.)

Rob

Jory Boling
04-04-2005, 08:56 AM
What did you do? I don't like to be at that range because I ismply cannot move my whole body as fast as someone can flck out their arm.



Rob

i can't move that fast either so i was having some difficulty, but it was important to enter as the arm was withdrawn. well that was second in importance to getting offline the jab.

it was some sort of entering offline the jab and "cutting" down on or near their elbow to their center as their arm was being pulled back in. he pointed out that while the end of their arm can be very hard to find (their fists) , it's easier to find their elbow.

did any of that make sense?

Jory