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garry cantrell
03-01-2005, 09:33 PM
I was on the phone with an attorney in Tyler last thursday when I heard what sounded like some sharply rustled paper in the background. The attorney said "hold on a second" and then "I've gotta go - there's a gun battle going on in the Square!"

He told me back later and told me about observing a gunman with a AK-47 kill his wife, wound his adult son, kill a citizen who went one on one with him with a handgun (apparently the citizen's intervention prevented the son from being killed - and he hit the gunman with a few rounds - but didn't count on the gunman's body armor) and wounded 3 police officers. The gunman was eventually killed. It seems the gunman didn't want to go to jail for failing to pay child support. He said the gunman was extraordinarily calm throughout the entirety of the exchange - and fired something around 50 bullets during same.

Not sure why I'm posting this - it just seems so surreal.

Taliesin
03-03-2005, 11:27 AM
Not Surreal - just American

pezalinski
03-03-2005, 11:52 AM
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/22505-courthouse.html

yup, very surreal. makes me want to get a flak jacket myself.

garry cantrell
03-07-2005, 12:36 PM
maybe 10 years ago or so they started installing metal detectors in the the courthouses here in Texas - because of a shooting over in Fort Worth (family law case as well). seems like the shooter in Tyler knew he couldn't get in the courthouse with his guns - so he waited for everyone outside. just goes to show - what - you can never take every precaution i guess.

Neil Mick
03-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Not Surreal - just American

No, not American...Texan :D :D

The only thing they'd wave around here in CA as an alternative to child-support is a subpoena...we're a very suit-happy state.

(oh, ok, ok: I'll come "clean:" Texan's aren't the only trigger-happy folks in the States...there WAS the ill-famed mass-shooting of lawyers at 101 California St, right here in SF, about 10 years' ago. No offence, Texan's...I don't even blame you all for giving us W: as he isn't a real Texan, after all)

garry cantrell
03-08-2005, 08:31 AM
i'm with the dixie chicks on that!

Neil Mick
03-08-2005, 01:20 PM
i'm with the dixie chicks on that!

Yeah, I think the phrase describing W's (and other's) Texan-fakery is "all hat, no cattle."

For more on this: just click here (http://www.allhatnocattle.net/what_does_it_mean.htm)

Bill Danosky
03-08-2005, 06:47 PM
He...told me about observing a gunman with a AK-47 ... kill a citizen who went one on one with him with a handgun (apparently the citizen's intervention prevented the son from being killed ... The gunman was eventually killed.

That took some pretty big cohones to go up against an AR with a handgun. It sounds like a case of another American hero stepping up and taking care of business.

AK 47s are sold by the millions all over the world so they aren't going away. It's a good thing other people with guns were already on the scene, or it might have been even worse.

Anyone know about the history of mental health treatment on the shooter yet?

Huker
03-09-2005, 01:01 AM
A bullet from a 9mm will kill someone just as easily as a bullet from an AK.

Huker
03-09-2005, 01:04 AM
Sorry, Bill. I didn't mean to sound curt there. Just raising a point.

Also, I've never thought of people having guns as a 'good thing'. Someone trying to save the day with a gun is often the result of more problems.

I'd probably be tempted to use a gun in that situation if I had one, though.

garry cantrell
03-09-2005, 08:48 AM
my understanding is that, even if the shooter wasn't actually diagnosed as being unstable of having a mental illness or two, almost everyone who knew him thought he could fill in for the unstable if they were busy that day.

also, the dynamics of the AK-47 and the handgun seemed to have played a role. the handgun (obviously) loses accuracy with distance, and there are a limited number of bullets - not so with the AK-47. so, the guy with the handgun left cover and approached the shooter - and nailed him in the chest with 2 or 3 rounds - and when the body armor stopped the bullets, the guy with the handgun couldn't retreat quickly enough. handgun guy was wounded and apparently out of bullets - so the shooter walked up and killed him. ultimately the biggest factor may have been that the shooter may have already decided he was going to die. yeah, he had body armor, but even so, never really took any evasive action, just walked around calmly shooting people, trucks, the courthouse, etc. and then left.

i think the above is accurate - but take it with a grain of salt. people watching the same event often have different stories to tell - and in something like this there is ample opportunity for less than accurate reporting.

Bill Danosky
03-09-2005, 11:04 AM
A bullet from a 9mm will kill someone just as easily as a bullet from an AK.

AK 47s fire a high volume of rounds, each of which have far more energy than a 9mm. This makes them quite fearsome as they can penetrate buildings, cars, most body armor, as well as the humans within them.

Statistically, you would be much more likely to die as a result of being shot by the 7.62x 39mm (AK) round.

Imagine the difference between crossing a highway where one VW Beetle is driving at 60 mph and one where 30 Corvettes are coming at 150 mph. The VW will still kill you, but which road do you want to cross?

I didn't think you were being curt, by the way, but I don't think most people appreciate what kind of sack it takes to take on main battle weapons with 10 rounds of 9mm. It's better than nothing, but kind of like pulling out your Uncle Henry pocketknife against a fully armored samurai.

My hat's off to that brave soul who probaby didn't think twice and laid it all down for his fellow man!

Huker
03-09-2005, 04:45 PM
AK 47s fire a high volume of rounds, each of which have far more energy than a 9mm. This makes them quite fearsome as they can penetrate buildings, cars, most body armor, as well as the humans within them.

Statistically, you would be much more likely to die as a result of being shot by the 7.62x 39mm (AK) round.


I admit, AKs are bigger guns and the bullets go a lot faster. But, the human body is fairly soft (assuming no body armor) and can be penetrated by eitehr type of bullet. So, if the man with the handgun were to shoot the AK carrier in the head or near the hips below his BA, then it would likely have the same effect as an AK, correct? Regardless of the size of the bullet, it will still seriously hurt or kill the target if it is put in the right place. In order to hit this guy 3x in the chest, he'd have to be fairly close, so I think the handgun shooter could have hit him somewhere more effective.

I'm not trying to sound impolite, but could you point me out to these statistics?


It's better than nothing, but kind of like pulling out your Uncle Henry pocketknife against a fully armored samurai.


Or a tanto? Even armored samurai have weaknesses. We exploit them all the time using aikido.

Huker
03-09-2005, 05:19 PM
:D
Like in love and war, its not the size of the gun, its how you use it.
:p

Bill Danosky
03-09-2005, 10:11 PM
You are absolutely correct- Virtually any shot through the forehead will kill you, so in that context, a tanto is as deadly as a .44 magnum, but that doesn't make it an even fight.

Whether or not you believe the wealth of statistics supporting the superior stopping power of rifles over pistols is up to you, but please indulge me and try this field test:

Take two large, bone-in hams and stand them up on the ground at say, 15 yards. Now take an AK 47 and the 9 mm pistol of your choice and unload them both into their respective hams.

You'll still be able to pull some bullets out of the first (9mm) one, but you'll be scraping ham salad off the grass an amazing distance behind the scattered remains of the second (AK 47) one.

People can, and regularly do survive multiple pistol wounds. A 7.62mm rifle round can enter near the hips below the BA, then turn and travel the full, vertical length of a human torso (and that's never good if it's yours).

These are the kinds of things you really shouldn't ponder as you're unholstering your sidearm and leaving cover, especially if you're one of those hero-types who's going through with it anyway.

Huker
03-09-2005, 11:39 PM
But both hams are "dead", right?

Multiple pistol wounds to the heart? head? or is it the ones that hit the shoulders or the legs?

I know I'm pushing this issue farther than I should. You're right, an AK vs. a 9mm is a skewed match. AK wins for exit wound damage, velocity, and so on. But, my original point was, that if both parties are making a kill-shot to a vital area of the body (as they should be) that either weapon is equally effective. The AK would do enough damage to a non-vital area to kill the other guy by shock and blood loss and general damage, but for a flat-out kill shot, the shot that any gun is built for, a 9mm will still cut the mustard.

One shot. One kill.

Huker
03-09-2005, 11:49 PM
It just occurred to me that pistol rounds have also been known to bounce around through the softer tissues of the inner-chest. Bullets of any kind do this. They get trapped in the rib-cage.

Thomas Ambrose
03-10-2005, 02:14 AM
Not to affiliate myself with a person who would do such a thing...

But I target shoot, and the firearms I take to the range most often are a Beretta 9mm handgun and a WASR-10 (AK-47 clone) rifle. When firing the rifle, I am MUCH more certain about the precision and accuracy at a similar range to that of the handgun. So beyond energy and exit, accuracy is something to consider when comparing the two weapons.

Sadly, it seems courthouse shootings are more commonplace these days. I remember a year or two ago when a man attacked a lawyer outside a courthouse with a small caliber handgun (.32 maybe?) with several shots to the face, with a video camera catching it all. Amazingly and luckily, that lawyer survived...

Such times to experience :(

david evans
03-10-2005, 07:21 AM
Strange; "AK 47s are sold by the millions all over the world so they aren't going away. It's a good thing other people with guns were already on the scene, or it might have been even worse."

Australians don't think this way (maybe). Please explain.

I'm not completely stupid; I'm just curious.

david evans
03-10-2005, 07:25 AM
Please take stock:

"Sadly, it seems courthouse shootings are more commonplace these days. I remember a year or two ago when a man attacked a lawyer outside a courthouse with a small caliber handgun (.32 maybe?) with several shots to the face, with a video camera catching it all. Amazingly and luckily, that lawyer survived..."

Bill Danosky
03-10-2005, 10:00 AM
Strange; "AK 47s are sold by the millions all over the world so they aren't going away. It's a good thing other people with guns were already on the scene, or it might have been even worse."

Australians don't think this way (maybe). Please explain.

I'm not completely stupid; I'm just curious.

I'm pleased to underscore this point, David: The world is full of military and military-style weaponry. Literally, millions and millions of these are currently in circulation. This is reality, and whether or not you plan to have a different situation in the future, you have to accept the present as it is.

I am on record as stating words to the effect that, "Only when a state of true detente exists between law breakers and law abiders is violence arrested." This means the good guys have to win as often as possible in violent encounters. This is how the wild west was tamed- The rule of law became enforceable and criminals realized that initiating violence could get you killed so they quit doing it.

Then people quit carrying guns all the time because they didn't have to anymore.

Now here was my original point, just to remind everyone- In the shootout being discussed, an armed American citizen apparently decided to cowboy up and brave a storm of military firepower to try to save the lives of the people around him. It sounds like he did a hell of a job, too- If he landed a couple or three center-of-mass shots, he was definitely holding his own, and completely against the odds.

When he drew his gun and left cover, he sacrificed his life to make our world safer.

I don't carry a gun because, as I've stated, I'm not going to have a stream of conciousness where I'm haunted by the prospect of violence. But if some whacko pulls out one of those (remember- there are millions of these things out there) AK/HK/FN/CETME/AR etc, etc, etc. I'm praying right now that Joe Citizen is nearby, and better prepared than I am.

Bill Danosky
03-11-2005, 11:12 AM
Just following up with some of the "rest of the story". It appears some of the details are now coming out, and handgun guy, AKA Mark Allen Wilson, is now a certified hero.

Here is a guy who could have run away and jumped in instead. Early reports are that he scored two chest hits over the body armor and one groin shot under it, then ran out of ammo. He was then shot multiple times by the perpetrator, David H. Arroyo, sr.

He didn't kill Arroyo, but as the first armed responder, he definitely slowed him down before the cops showed up. Who knows how many people would have otherwise been left defenseless and subsequently killed? Wilson's big piece of bad luck seems to be that he inadvertently picked Arroyo's truck to take cover behind.

A few details are in and around this link, for those interested: http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14040626&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=6

Any of you military guys know if he'd have gotten a medal for this kind of thing in battle? It seems to fit a lot of the CMH criteria, the most significant being that had he chosen not to act, no one would have thought any less of him.

Thomas Ambrose
03-11-2005, 01:44 PM
Sadly, it seems courthouse shootings are more commonplace these days.



Quoting myself from yesterday or whatever, but to underscore my point, today there was a horrible shooting in an Atlanta courtroom, where the suspect successfully managed to take a handgun from the police deputy present and shot his way out. It is a new story, so I am unfamiliar with the particulars, but this incident involved a policeman's weapon, not a private citizen's weapon.

I think though, the reason for this is that for pretty obvious. You will get people of unstable mental health in courthouses at a higher concentration that elsewhere. To make matters worse, sometimes these criminals have nothing to lose. To be sure, the application of law enforcement and mental health in the USA leaves a lot to be desired and I think the lax approach to both is the root cause for many of the current violence problems...

Bill Danosky
03-11-2005, 05:59 PM
I think though, the reason for this is that for pretty obvious. You will get people of unstable mental health in courthouses at a higher concentration that elsewhere. To make matters worse, sometimes these criminals have nothing to lose. To be sure, the application of law enforcement and mental health in the USA leaves a lot to be desired and I think the lax approach to both is the root cause for many of the current violence problems...

Since I have so often stated my opinion about this, I'm trying really hard not to get started on the failure of the so-called Mental Health and Justice systems to detect and solve this molehill before it turned into the biggest mountain (to certain people) ever.

Here's a link to Tyler's local news station, KLTV:
http://www.kltv.com/Global/category.asp?C=7843&nav=1TjB

To me, the opportunities for this to have been peacefully resolved were early and frequent, but decide for yourselves.

Lorien Lowe
03-12-2005, 09:14 PM
Any of you military guys know if he'd have gotten a medal for this kind of thing in battle? It seems to fit a lot of the CMH criteria, the most significant being that had he chosen not to act, no one would have thought any less of him.

Civilians can get medals too, can't they? I can't remember the name, though...

-LK

garry cantrell
03-15-2005, 10:43 AM
Saw a blurb last night regarding the Atlanta shootings. Apparently the bad guy overpowered the deputy, locked her up, took her keys and unlocked the safe box where she had left her sidearm (you lock it up before entering the lock down area). Bad guy then changes into civilian clothes, takes the gun, crosses a skyway to the courthouse - goes to the Judge's chambers where he finds 3 people - handcuffs 2 of them, and demands to know the location of the Judge. He then walks into court from the Judge's entry (located behind the bench- where the Judge sits), shoots the judge in the back of the head and shoots the Court Reporter. Apparently a civil (rather than criminal) matter was being heard, so the prosecutor was not in the courtroom. The attorney sitting at what would have been the prosecutor's table said that he was certain the bad guy was looking specifically for the prosecutor. Bad guy walks up to the aforementioned attorney and just calmly stares at him, then leaves. I'm sure I left out some details.

So, once again, this isn't a "things get out of hand and something goes horribly wrong" kind of scenario. This guy sought out the Judge (but why the court reporter I wonder???). Very calm, very cold, very focused. Like the guy in Tyler, it doesn't seem like this guy cared much about getting away (while he did, in fact, get away - I've gotta say its an anomaly - under most analyses the act of shooting a Judge in a courthouse will generally get you killed). That's the scariest part I think.

Bill Danosky
03-17-2005, 10:46 PM
Aren't there bailiffs in charge of ensuring the safety of judges? I noticed in the courthouse footage of the Tyler event, armed bailiffs were all over the place with guns blazing.

garry cantrell
03-20-2005, 06:02 PM
yeah, you'd figure. in Texas there's generally a bailiff in the courtroom or immediately outside whenever court's in session. don't know about Georgia.

Shane Mokry
03-27-2005, 11:16 AM
I think the handgun guy did what he had to.

We can all learn a thing or two from this. First, put two in the chest and one in the head when training. Second, if you are going to carry a handgun, carry some extra loaded magazines.

Shane

JayRhone
03-29-2005, 01:30 AM
I'm with the guys up above. Shoot him in the head. ;0) and just cause I just purchased one and am excited another largely produced rifle is the SKS 7.62 x 39mm (If you'll note uses the same ammunition as AK-47) any who I hear the russian, chinese, and korean armys use this weapon for it's amazing durability and long stamina to stay sure fire in the field. I dunno if I'm convinced of that cause sometimes I go shooting and I pull the trigger and it'll click but no bullet comes out. kooky. :freaky: =0) Enjoy your nights and don't worry about crazy gunmen. Enter, blend and you'll soon have his gun in your hand. Heheh.
Jay

Bill Danosky
03-30-2005, 06:56 PM
put two in the chest and one in the head when training.

That's good for single targets. It's worth mentioning that the "boarding house serve" is preferred for multiple assailants- Everybody gets firsts before anybody gets seconds!

Shane Mokry
04-04-2005, 06:54 PM
Absolutely Bill,

There was only one guy with a rifle in this situation though.

When I have several targets to shoot, I train that way also. At least one shot for each target before anyone gets seconds...I totally agree. Good point.

Shane

JayRhone
04-05-2005, 02:48 AM
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He just wanted to add that he agreed. :p

Shane Mokry
04-06-2005, 04:24 PM
Right...what he said.

That's what I said....Geeez! :D