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kacy
02-11-2005, 11:32 AM
Ive been practicing Aikido for 6 months now, but I'm starting to get irritated by how patronising some of the people are. It's even more annoying that there is another beginner who has been goin for 4 months who doesn't get this treatment at all. I'm not bad at it or anything and I know more than the other beginner, sometimes I hesitate to try out new things, I'm about 5"2 and slim, and I'm also quite young.
I dont get injured often but the one or two occasions that it did happen it was treated as though it had nothing to do with the person who did the technique and was treated as though it was my fault (though not directly, more like two of the people looking at me sitting out, sighing and looking at each other with this superiour smirk). I find it patronising, and slightly cruel.
Even though it is only a few of the people that do it, there arent many people in the dojo so I have to pair up with one of them at some point during training and it ruins my enjoyment of aikido since they make me feel like I'm much younger than a collage student, and if I make one mistake they will endlessly rattle on rather than letting me know what I did and letting me practice again. I dont want to go to another dojo because most of the people who go are nice and I like the sensei's teaching.

MitchMZ
02-13-2005, 02:00 PM
My opinion, tell your Sensei you are uncomfortable with the behavior of some of the other students. When people know that they are offending you will they be able to fix the behaviors that do so. Once again, I would talk to your Sensei about it. Maybe not at the dojo, but just tell Sensei you would like to talk about some private issues.

As far as the others, they don't have much room to be patronizing you if they aren't even out on the mat.

dan guthrie
02-13-2005, 02:27 PM
I had a similar situation with someone - even newer than me - who had an "aikido doesn't work" attitude. He's a big guy and I can understand why he felt that way at first. After a few "ohmygod" lessons from a tiny Nage he stopped the attitude.
Just wait, keep training. Some of my problems took care of themselves. Remember, most of your sempai have seen dozens or hundreds of new people who stayed for one month and then disappeared forever.
I'd stay, in your case, from sheer stubbornness to prove the smirkers wrong. In my case, I'm lucky that I just love this stuff. Eighteen months and counting.

Adam Alexander
02-13-2005, 05:32 PM
Ask one of them, in private, why they're doing it. Maybe there's a good reason for it but they don't have the guts to say it to you directly or they want you to sink or swim.

I've been harrassed and have harrassed others. In all cases, it was justified.

NagaBaba
02-13-2005, 10:11 PM
Ive been practicing Aikido for 6 months now
oh my, simply shut up and train hard. You came to practice Martial Art, not drinking coffee in nice and pleasant environment.

Martial Art is about to face death, and sometimes even more. And you start to complain about insignificant things right from the beginning. You are not playing gameboy here; you must be able to face hate, violence, any attack. These are serious matters. You are beginner and total ignorant; you donít even know where right hand and left foot are. So stop judging folks, pay attention on learning techniques not on the way how others are looking at you.

Indeed, simply shut up and train hard.

stuartjvnorton
02-13-2005, 10:26 PM
oh my, simply shut up and train hard. You came to practice Martial Art, not drinking coffee in nice and pleasant environment.

Martial Art is about to face death, and sometimes even more. And you start to complain about insignificant things right from the beginning. You are not playing gameboy here; you must be able to face hate, violence, any attack. These are serious matters. You are beginner and total ignorant; you don't even know where right hand and left foot are. So stop judging folks, pay attention on learning techniques not on the way how others are looking at you.

Indeed, simply shut up and train hard.

It's hard to refrain from sometimes smacking down a beginner who doesn't have the "pre-requisite level of backbone", especially when you don't know anything about them, ne?
Still, some people manage to do it.

Joe Bowen
02-14-2005, 02:54 AM
It's hard to refrain from sometimes smacking down a beginner who doesn't have the "pre-requisite level of backbone", especially when you don't know anything about them, ne?
Still, some people manage to do it.

While Szczepan Janczuk's response might seem a little harsh, it is pretty much right on the money. Just train, and don't let the petty attitudes of a few numb-skulls bother you. Their attitude might be from the belief that you won't stick out the training, or maybe they just don't like you and are trying to drive you out in a rather immature fashion. I know an instructor that won't even try to learn your name until you've been training for over 3 months. If those kind of shenanigans are enough to drive you from the dojo, what happens when they really start to play mean?

Patronizing is annoying, but you can either chose to be annoyed or not. That is what is meant by "self-victory".

joe

Hrvoje
02-14-2005, 03:41 AM
I've been training 4 years now, almost 17, still in high school and a nikyu. i;ve been patronised, harassed and preached to by people of all rank and age about aikido, whether they do aikido or not. Its completely beside the point. sometimes its constructive and gives you a new perspective, on what you can do, sometimes it doesn't. If you feel they arent giving you the respect you want, earn it. Every one of us has to work through that social barrier in the dojo, its not something you whine about, its something you work on by training day in and day out until they see your worth their time. yeah its harsh but its just another kind of training.

happysod
02-14-2005, 05:37 AM
Martial Art is about to face death, and sometimes even more so, what is the average mortality rate in your dojo? Or is this just using an extreme (and overly melodramatic) example to prove a point perhaps...

Anon, just stick with it, it should get better - if it doesn't have a word with the instructor.

As for the "tough love" camp, why would you feel the need to patronise a beginner? If you don't actually harass others as part of your normal practice, why are you posting in defence of this type of behaviour? Really curious about this.

Mary Eastland
02-14-2005, 08:45 AM
Dear Anon:
Thanks for sharing your experience. There is a lot of patronizing in Aikido. Somehow, sometimes because people have been training longer they seem to think they are better than others. It is all crap. If you love Aikido, keep training... it will get different. And maybe when you have trained for a long time you will remember to treat new people with a friendly atitude because of this experience.
Mir

stuartjvnorton
02-14-2005, 08:55 AM
While Szczepan Janczuk's response might seem a little harsh, it is pretty much right on the money.

Agreed, but presumably anon would have missed the message amongst the bs Gunny Highway routine.

Eric Webber
02-14-2005, 09:27 AM
I agree with talking to your Sensei about the issue. Part of a Sensei's responsibility is to direct the sempai to help the cohai in the most appropriate manner possible. Sempai-cohai relationships are two-way streets, not one-direction sewer pipes for the dookie to flow down hill onto the cohai. ...And please make sure you can differentiate between "tough love" and abuse before accepting any and all behavior in your direction. Good luck.

debigthump
02-14-2005, 09:58 AM
strength of mind is as important as strength of body,,, without fire you cant forge the steel of your soul....like in life the aiki master is calm and empathic in serious situations...its not about others ,,,martial arts is about you. ;)

NagaBaba
02-14-2005, 01:22 PM
so, what is the average mortality rate in your dojo? Or is this just using an extreme (and overly melodramatic) example to prove a point perhaps.
When you practice MA one day you may be called to use your skills do defend your life, or life your family, friends, country...May be you will have to kill somebody, or not to kill him, and continue to live with consequences of your decision.

May be you will have to give your own life to protect someone....you see, itís serious matter. You practice in the dojo to forge you spirit and body. In that context, any patronizing or other form of harsh training is meaningless, itís simply out of our interest. If somebody fells that it is a big drama, he very probably should find another hobby.

debigthump
02-14-2005, 02:56 PM
it takes time to break through the barriers that hinder an individuals training ,and some the same and some not . But in any case be it training or the real world we deal or die literally or to an ideal. take time to learn everything.some trees are weaker than others but all can grow strong. :)

happysod
02-15-2005, 03:17 AM
If somebody fells that it is a big drama, he very probably should find another hobby now if the initial post indicated an unwillingness to learn or a whine about doing technique because it was too hard, I may have some agreement with your "shut up and train" response. However, what I read wasn't "hard training" [insert your own ideas on what this actually constitutes] but rather just a pathetic form of bullying which actually indicates more about the lack of confidence in the so-called seniors than any untrainable fault in the beginner.

From what I read of your posts, the ideal of aikido for you is martial - in this context I would actually suggest that respect and dojo manners should be more important to you, especially in senior students. Manners grew out of conduct used to prevent strife and, for me at least, in the dojo represent a means of maintaining the discipline needed to prevent injury while training with intent. As such, patronising anyone (beginner or senior) is a route I would not wish to follow and would certainly hope none of my students would follow.

Jason Tonks
02-15-2005, 07:01 AM
Without being present at the actual dojo that anonymous is training at it is diffiicult to determine what advice to actually give. What is necessary is to get to strike a balance here. While part of budo training is the cultivation of a students spirit and character, this doesn't mean bullying. The senior students should be encouraging the junior students to apply technique correctly and strongly on them, while gently applying the technique on the beginner, and as the student progresses leading to a stronger application. If it is the case that people are bullying and taking liberties, they should be come down on like a ton of bricks and reminded of their own place in the pecking order. In the meantime anonymous, just keep on training, don't avoid these people, seek them out if anything, put it back on them a bit, show you have the resolve to keep going. Refuse to be intimidated.
All the best
Jason T

ruthmc
02-15-2005, 12:01 PM
they make me feel like I'm much younger than a collage student, and if I make one mistake they will endlessly rattle on rather than letting me know what I did and letting me practice again.
Ok, time to do some serious thinking about your self-image here! Nobody can "make" you feel anything - if you feel bad when interacting with these individuals you are choosing to allow yourself to feel this way.

Anybody who patronises you has a problem. Don't allow it to become your problem too - this really is your choice.

Do some work on increasing your self confidence, and pretty soon, if anybody starts behaving badly to you, you'll just quietly laugh at them :)

Bullies don't pick on confident people.

Ruth

Kevin Kelly
02-15-2005, 12:08 PM
Didn't someone called..uh..O'Sensei say that learning Aikido should be a joyful experience?

debigthump
02-15-2005, 12:21 PM
i agree with ian and jason, THAT is the idea i was getting at.
thanks guys!!! ;)

kacy
02-15-2005, 01:16 PM
thankyou for the help. I understand the whole 'tough-love' thing, and my problem is very small compared to things like actually facing death, etc; I'd just like to clarify that its not me having an unwillingness to learn, since I put time aside every day to practice in some form like tai subaki, visualisation and breathing exercises, etc. (I don't really see the problem in confiding in the anon section... I'm sorry if it looks like I'm making a big drama out of the problem). I will talk to my sensei if things get worse, but unless they do I will talk to the people about it. Thankyou for the help!

Ron Tisdale
02-15-2005, 01:29 PM
Bullies don't pick on confident people.

:) Well, they might once or twice, but unless they're stupid, they give up on that pretty quick... :)

Ron (I've run into a few stupid bullies myself...)

shorty
02-16-2005, 11:29 PM
Anon, I'd just talk to them through your training. I'm a very short woman, and when I started there was certainly some patronizing of me going on, so I just kept coming more often, and trained as hard as I could, especially with the people I felt thought I wasn't up to it. It took a year or so, but now I'm treated with a lot of respect by all the guys I train with, and they have no hesitation in throwing me hard or whatever becuase I've shown them I can take it. Be tough, don't complain, and don't give in. And most of all, do it for yourself, and not for them.

Good luck

Nick Simpson
03-11-2005, 06:58 AM
I think people being patronising to you in aikido is always going to be a common occurrence. I have had both sempai and kohai do it to me. When I was a 6th kyu it happened frequently, especially from low kyu grades who sincerely believed their 5th or 4th kyu made them more capable than me. I had to show them I could hold my own if not outpace them. I have and sometimes do still have it happen from beginners, you have to rise above it, show them you mean buisness but still look after them and apply the correct level of technique to coerce them without injuring them. I have also been patronised by dan grades, unfortuantely there is little you can do about this except respectfully listen to their advice/rant and then appear to do what you feel is right. The majority of the time what they are imparting to you is done in a spirit of teaching something they themselves had to struggle for and as such you should be thankful for the attention unless its completely malicious. If so and you can do it, then show them that not all kyu grades are incapable of pushing a dan grade...

Kevin Leavitt
03-24-2005, 02:14 PM
usually people who patronize you have issues of their own, usually related to lack of esteem or self confidence.

If you are new to the art, welcome to the pecking order of dojo hierarcy. Suck it up and train through it is the best advice I know, cause there is not much you can do about it.

Eventually you will find your niche, cliche or what not and find people that you like to train with.

Usually I just politely work with them and try and be humble. I look at it as a real test to Aikido which is learning to work with all people and all types of conflict. Training at it's best.

Nick P.
03-24-2005, 02:48 PM
beat up the guy who was patronizing you

...don't forget to get their friends and family while you are at it.

Nick P.
03-24-2005, 02:58 PM
When you practice MA one day you may be called to use your skills do defend your life, or life your family, friends, country...May be you will have to kill somebody, or not to kill him, and continue to live with consequences of your decision.

May be you will have to give your own life to protect someone....you see, it's serious matter. You practice in the dojo to forge you spirit and body. In that context, any patronizing or other form of harsh training is meaningless, it's simply out of our interest. If somebody fells that it is a big drama, he very probably should find another hobby.

http://www.aikiweb.com/general/founder.html

shugyo_sha
03-25-2005, 08:35 PM
oh my, simply shut up and train hard. You came to practice Martial Art, not drinking coffee in nice and pleasant environment.

If you have been training for sometime, it would be deeply disturbing for me to comprehend this statement. One's experience should be enjoyable and rewarding as the newcomer learns from his/her seniors.

Martial Art is about to face death, and sometimes even more.

Um-mm maybe I'm missing something here, but where in the teachings does it say this? We all shall face our end at one point in time. What matters is what we do with our time before we meet that end.

And yes you are correct in a sense what you face that is more is yourself. We face the challenge of mastering ourselves. We must master our faults, our own weaknesses.

Being that Anon is 6 months into his training, this person may be looking for response's to see if this is a standard occurrence. A rapport should be established with the Sensei, where he should feel comfortable to speak with him/her in private.

If this type of action is condoned or not dealt with. Than maybe just maybe you may want to find another Sensei.

As for the Martial Arts prepares you to face death? In the context that this statement was presented then I would equate that to
So in turn would learning how to drive.

Just my opinion.

Kevin Leavitt
03-27-2005, 01:09 PM
[QUOTE=Clyde Caminos]
As for the Martial Arts prepares you to face death? In the context that this statement was presented then I would equate that to
So in turn would learning how to drive.
/QUOTE]

Good analogy! wished i'd thought of that one!

I tend to think martial arts might prepare you how to live more than how to die or face death. I've done alot of "martial" training in my life and none of it has taught me how to face death.

Tim Gerrard
03-27-2005, 03:45 PM
...Martial Art is about to face death...

Chill out mate, I think you're missing the point here. If there's a problem it should be dealt with there and then, approach them after class, maybe a quiet word in the bar after trainin. If it is a semapai worth their salt they should listen. Unfortunatly it's a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and it happens to be the inexperienced who try to teach begginners techniques that are, more often than not, completly different from what sensei's doing.

Just speak to people, don't try and kick their ass to prove a point, and if that doesn't work, talk to sensei or a sempai.

NagaBaba
03-27-2005, 04:24 PM
Um-mm maybe I'm missing something here, but where in the teachings does it say this? .
Yes, you are missing something. Find a good teacher, he will teach you this "something".

NagaBaba
03-27-2005, 04:26 PM
Chill out mate, I think you're missing the point here.
I miss nothing here. You are missing whole point.

Tim Gerrard
03-28-2005, 06:45 AM
I miss nothing here. You are missing whole point.

I'm only pointing out that this thread is about patronising aikidoka. Not life and death situations.

PeterR
03-28-2005, 07:10 AM
You guys are begininng to scare me.

shugyo_sha
03-29-2005, 03:42 PM
Please unite your efforts, forget your egos and strive to maintain a joyful, friendly dojo.

What I should include was that was written by Yamada Sensei

"Budo (the Martial Way) is not felling the opponent by our force, nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all things in nature".

Written by O'Sensei

Yes, you are missing something. Find a good teacher, he will teach you this "something".

the slayer
04-03-2005, 05:15 PM
i had a similar problem a couple of weeks ago i have been in aikido for 5yrs i was going to do my 4th kyu last yr but something happened so got to do it this yr.i have diabetes,lupus,kidney problems just found out i have also got a sliding hiatus hernia and an underactive thyroid.lots of the higher grades and some beginners that no me are fine about it.but for some reason a beginner said to me i can't lift you up (for haishin undo) back stretch because she was implying i was heavy or fat but what got me she went over to a male who was heavier than me and picked him up i let it go but on the sat when i went to train i told the instructor what happened and one of the students heard and said if you do it right you can pick anyone up so the instructor told my sensei to tell him what had been going on touch wood it hasn't happened since i don't mind if they say i'm not being nasty but can't pick you up but saying the way the other student said it bothered me.

Justin Gaar
04-12-2005, 10:45 AM
This may not be patronizing. Take it humorously. Laugh at yourself for your mistakes and try try again. If you have this defeatist attitude and think of yourself as a beginner you'll never stop coming off as a beginner.

bryce_montgomery
04-12-2005, 11:41 AM
Here's a thought I had when I was reading this thread:

Anon, what have the experiences in your aikido practice taught you about how to handle the situation?

Just a thought I had.

My advice would be to ask them why or to stop...if this doesn't help, just try to ignore them and push on. Have you ever thought that they are patronizing you because you might be better than they were at your level?...No matter what the reasoning is, just train harder and stay committed to your training.

Bryce

Lindsay Donaghe
04-12-2005, 03:31 PM
My advice, like most of the others, would be to talk to your Sensei about the situation. Ultimately, if it distracts you to the point that you can't train, seek out another dojo that might be a more friendly environment.

But try to remember that Aikido is about developing yourself mentally as much as it is a physical "Martial Art". Confidence will come the more you train. You aren't in competition with anyone else in your dojo, you're only in competition with your potential. So try to stick with it, and ignore slights from your sempai because they aren't what's important (and ignoring bullies is one of the best ways to get them to lose interest in picking on you). You'll only have to train one on one with them for part of the class, and think of it as a good way to practice trying to relax in stressful situations (breathe! focus!). Remember that you are still learning from your sempai, even if the lesson is not what they think they are teaching you.

Jake Karlins
04-12-2005, 05:24 PM
Giving advice is really hard. I think other people hjave given you a good range of ideas/options. Really, though, I just wanted to say: Good luck! Hope everything turns out well. :)

aikiangel
04-12-2005, 08:35 PM
Hey there Anon.

I know how you feel, all though i have been training for 2 going on 3 years and have 4th Kyuu and still consider myself a beginner, i still receive this kind of treatment...my advice ignore it and stick with Aikido....sometimes depending on the circumstances it will pass, in others like mine so far it hasnt, so get used to it. I am young and female, there fore there is a bit of patronising for me. Most people arent in my Dojo, thers just one or two in particular. it is mostly because they are higher and insist on being treated as a higher rank and think they know more then you. I receive a lot of this even from ranks that are lower because they are older then me they think they know more then me, and some do as they train more but for the most part they dont. so basically train hard and dont let it get to you.

anonymous reply
04-13-2005, 01:43 PM
Dear Anon, I have been training just under a year. I wonder about what you mean by patronising? I understand that you are using the anonymous section for a reason, as am I, but if you feel comfortable, could you share more about your situation?

Since I am new also, I cannot offer any advice, but I will share my experiences, and you can take from them whatever helps you out.

I have trained under multiple instructors several senior students. They are all different in their approaches. I have practiced with even more partners, all of which are different. Some people tend to be very hardcore, some more the opposite. I receive my share of criticism from from instructors and once in a while senior students about what I am doing right, or more often, what I am doing wrong. Sometimes it is a blunt "Do it like this!" and sometimes there is more humor used to get the point across. This may look like I am being patronised, but I take to humor well and it helps me remember the points.

What mood are you in when you train? I had a lot on my mind yesterday when I trained, and my mind was hardly there at all. I made a lot of mistakes, breached some etiquette, and probably should not have trained that day. My mood affected my interpretations of people's criticisms, and that changed the experience for me.

From a non-Aikido perspective here is some advice I give. Try to understand these students and their intentions. See if your mood affected your interpretation of the events. Also, talking to your sensei and continuing training both sound like good advice from everyone else. If they truly are just patronising you for the sake of bullying, continuing to train will be the best way to show them confidence. Even train with them, unless they are doing things that are unreasonably putting you at risk of injury, at which case your sensei needs to know.

babaker
04-16-2005, 06:08 AM
When you practice MA one day you may be called to use your skills do defend your life, or life your family, friends, country...May be you will have to kill somebody, or not to kill him, and continue to live with consequences of your decision.

May be you will have to give your own life to protect someone....you see, it's serious matter. You practice in the dojo to forge you spirit and body. In that context, any patronizing or other form of harsh training is meaningless, it's simply out of our interest. If somebody fells that it is a big drama, he very probably should find another hobby.


Hey, Szczepan ... get a grip! Tone it down a few decibels, will ya?

As true as your post might be, to dwell on it, like most people do, will just drive you and everyone around you stark raving mad.

If it was me reading this in my teens, I would read this post, tuck it away in the depths of my memorys until experience gave it some kind of meaning. In other words, read it and then forget about it.

There are no guarantees in life, just that it is.

There will be patronizing people, and then there will be nice helpful people, but no matter if everything goes to hell in a bucket ... at least you can enjoy the ride.

babaker
04-16-2005, 06:20 AM
Hey there Anon.

I know how you feel, all though i have been training for 2 going on 3 years and have 4th Kyu and still consider myself a beginner, i still receive this kind of treatment...my advice ignore it and stick with Aikido....sometimes depending on the circumstances it will pass, in others like mine so far it hasn't, so get used to it. I am young and female, there fore there is a bit of patronizing for me. Most people aren't in my Dojo, thers just one or two in particular. it is mostly because they are higher and insist on being treated as a higher rank and think they know more then you. I receive a lot of this even from ranks that are lower because they are older then me they think they know more then me, and some do as they train more but for the most part they dont. so basically train hard and dont let it get to you.

Don't forget .... to be your age.

Too many people try to be older or younger, or imitate some character in a movie or in a book they read somewhere, but if you are 15, be 15! If you are 25 then be twenty five! Or if you are like me, over 50 ... well I don't want to be that old anymore so I have decided to be a kid again, at least whenever I can escape! So factor that little thought into the mix and figure it out. When your do ... it makes this whole patronizing thing fit into where each person is for their age and how they are trying to connect with the human beings around them who are at a different place than they are.

Just a thought. Enjoy where you are RIGHT NOW ... cause this moment will never come again.